028 | Bottle Shops before Bars: starting at the liquid and work back towards the brand | with Duncan McRae, Co-Founder of Woven (Adelaide, Australia)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 028, I had the pleasure of chatting with Duncan McRae, Co-founder of Woven Whisky and a Drinks industry veteran, having previously worked with William Grant's & Sons and Diageo. A living example of Building Brands Bottom Up. I hope you enjoy our chat.

Main Topics Discussed:

(00:00) Building Demand

(03:08) Brand Awareness

(08:58) Managing Relationships

(10:44) KPI's & Incentives

(13:46) "Blue Tick Moments": Becoming Known in the Ecosystem

(15:40) Bottle Shops vs. On-Trade Growth

(26:46) It starts with the liquid

(32:00) Adapting Your Sales Pitch

(37:52) Better Brand Training

(44:35) Taste Profile before categories

(52:00) Special Pours & Drawbacks

About the Host: Chris Maffeo

About the Guest: Duncan McRae

About the product: Woven

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Duncan McRae

Co-founder | Woven Whisky

What is MAFFEO DRINKS Leadership Insights?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Matheo Drinks
Podcast.

I'm your host, Chris Matheo.
In episode 28, I had the

pleasure of chatting to Duncan
McRae, cofounder of Walden and a

drinks industry veteran.
Having previously worked with

William Branson Sons and the
audio, he's a leading example of

building brands.
Bottle up.

I hope you enjoy your chat.
Hi Duncan.

How you doing?
I'm very well, thank you.

Very well indeed.
Nice to finally meet you in

person and put a face to the
LinkedIn post.

That's true.
That's true into the newsletter.

I still remember when you wrote
me about my newsletter as you

are a reader and I remember you
saying that you agree with

almost everything and not
exactly everything.

So I hope we will have a few
challenges on the conversation

today and we'll learn from each
other.

Yeah, no, I do enjoy it.
I feel very lucky to have found

it at the time that I did
because I was doing lots of like

third party consultancy and
essentially I got loads of free,

very insightful information from
you in 51 liners that I could

recycle and claim as my own in
front of clients.

Not quite, but I think it's a
great thing what you're doing

and I think.
The value in what you offer for

free, it is I think a lot of
people have a good understanding

of the sorts of things you're
talking about, but they haven't

articulated it in the way that
you are able to.

And I think that's why a lot of
people click and they get on

board very quickly with what
you're saying because it feels

like common sense.
But no one's ever written it

down and I think it's a very
useful thing for people.

I share it with all my clients
and all my industry contacts

and.
People that I mentor or run into

at distilleries because it's the
only thing I have to compare it

to, is a book, which was the
autobiography or the biography

of the founder of 42 Below, the
New Zealand vodka brand that was

going back like 25 years and it
was just at the first wave of

premium vodka, just when brands
like Grey Goose were in their

infancy.
They took this brand from a

startup as a side hustle to
global success and then eventual

sell out for millions of dollars
to Bacardi.

I think ended up with it.
And this is pre Internet as well

pre social media and the way
they built that brand is

codified in this book and the
title of the book says it all

really.
You'll love this to someone with

good expertise in sales, but
every bastard said no.

And the book is basically a
story of, like, how they built

the brand in your words, bottom
up.

Bar by bar.
DRAM by DRAM, bartender by

bartender.
And when I was finding my brand

with my cofounders, I scoured
the Internet on eBay and found,

like, enough copies to give
everyone one.

And I was like, this is the
Bible.

We need to not be any under any
illusion.

It's going to be as hard as this
and I think.

Your newsletter is really good
for that because it gives people

like some real talk about how
it's going to thank you, thank

you.
That's the aim of what I'm

doing.
And sometimes it feels like a

little bit of a like I'm the bad
guy, like telling the truth of

the dreamers.
But you should get it right as

early as possible.
Then you can save a lot of

money.
And I've spent a lot of money on

behalf of brands and I know what
works and what doesn't.

That's the actual aim.
Let me ask you the first

question.
I know you are a marketer at

heart and there is this big
buzzword that everybody uses now

brand awareness.
Let's build brand awareness of

the brand is lacking awareness
and who this meeting and big and

small companies are full of the
sentence.

I like to call it more like
demand building demand rather

than creating awareness because
it's a little bit fluffy for me

awareness.
So what's your take on that?

How in your experience, your
current experience with Woven

and in your previous experience,
how do you think brands should

build demand when they start?
I think building demand in the

entree, there's a million
different ways to do it.

I think there's that old saying
of you can lead a horse to

water, but you can't force it to
drink.

And brand awareness.
Is not like a turnkey solution.

It's a complex ecosystem where
it's supported by.

Understanding the occasion, the
need, state the product features

and benefits and linking it to
consumers because I think

there's brands that have high
awareness, but they're still not

cool or they're not in demand or
they're not meeting the needs of

their target consumer or
whatever.

And I think how to go about
building it I think is taking

your time really.
Spending some time investigating

all the assumptions that are
baked into your vision as a

brand and removing your ego or
your confidence and playing

devil's advocate with yourself
and saying why on earth would

anyone need this?
And it's not because you want to

sell it to them or you think
it's great or you're fixing a

category problem that no one
cares about because a lot of

brands do that.
They're like, oh, they've.

Come up with the solution and
then they've created an argument

to sell that solution.
But no one's having that

argument or that conversation.
And I think deconstructing

demand is, I would hate to say
that there's luck involved, but

it's that thing of being in the
right place at the right time

with the right proposition, with
the right story to meet the

needs of either the bartender,
the buyer, the consumer.

And there's a lot of things that
need to go right.

And some of it's intuitive, but
a lot of it is not common sense.

And I think it's so complex.
It's so hard.

I don't pretend that it's easy.
But yeah, as you said, it's very

easy to waste a lot of money in
the entree with poorly conceived

ideas that are forced because
they have to work or it should

work.
And it just doesn't.

And it doesn't make sense
because a lot of things need to

go right.
There's approaches you can use

about playing devil's advocate,
listening rather than talking.

I think that's the best thing
you can do first.

And then there becomes like a
doggedness as well where you

can't take the first though as
this doesn't work.

That's where you need good
relationships between marketing

who say this is a great idea.
We've got loads of insights.

We've developed this product to
meet this situation.

And then sales who are like,
yeah, you would say that you're

marketing.
This is what the real world

says, and therefore it's going
in the bottom of my priority

list because it's a hard sell
like you need a strong.

Relationship between those two
entities to make something work

because you need them to say
okay, that didn't work.

But you need that like openness,
constant communication, like a

true belief that you're on the
same team and you're not being

given something ineffective to
sell.

Like your feedback is listened
to and responded to and valid.

That relationship, I think is
probably the biggest thing that

can make or break brands in the
early days.

And often it's the same person.
And founder led startups, sales

and marketing is like.
The founder often is a very

interesting point with what
you're raising because it's so

you mentioned it there, like
with a few things, it's about

the system in place, putting a
system in place.

Because everybody more or less,
we discussed this in the

beginning.
Everybody knows what to do, more

or less.
When I'm talking, when I'm

writing on LinkedIn, when I'm
writing a newsletter or having a

chat like this with you on a
podcast.

I'm not reinventing the wheel,
you know, It's it's not like

it's stuff that people know
about.

It's just that I feel that a lot
of brands, they lack the system

and they know the bits and
pieces and they cannot put them

together.
For example, the maintenance,

the technical team would be
super great at certain things,

but then it's kind of
disconnected from a brand team.

They may not have never heard of
each other, met each other, had

the feedback to each other.
Then it's about the Kpi's to

have shared Kpi's between sales,
marketing and operations.

Because a lot of time they are
incentivized on different things

that go against each other, like
the distillery or the brewery.

It's incentivized on productions
and effectiveness and efficiency

driving efficiencies on products
and they discard SK U's that may

be super needed by the on trade
system because that's the one

that put the foot in the door in
pubs and then they can squeeze

in the other.
The more boring kind of brands

that may have a huge brand
awareness like close to 99% in

that market, but nobody wants
them anymore because they are

just on promo on supermarket
shelves all the time.

So it's this is the very
interesting discussion and like

we're not going to solve it here
but the my wish let's say it is

trying to decode it in a way
that you know what I see what

you guys are doing with woven
for example like you created a

kind of movement if I got it
right from experiencing from

from an outsider perspective on
creating the community and

getting to a certain place
before the product was actually

even available.
And of course it has got to do

with the fact that whiskey needs
aging and maturation and so

forth.
There is a point that I'm

struggling with when I talk to
sales teams.

That is you cannot show up to
the to a bar with the product

that they've never heard of
because the bar community is

very intertwined together, like
across the world, across

different cities, countries and
so forth.

And if they haven't heard about
your brand, there's a reason you

know like it.
It's not that they it cannot be

that they have missed it.
Okay, one of the 20 bars you're

going to talk to may have not
heard about it, but the they

must have heard it somehow.
Otherwise there's something

wrong.
So how do you create that

demand, for example, before you
actually entered the bar or the

public restaurant?
For us it was.

Like, we were really lucky.
We came with loads of insights.

We'd all done.
There were three of us

originally.
There's now five of us.

Three of us are like drinks
industry since, you know, legal

drinking age bartenders into
brands, big companies, small

companies, different parts of
the world, different skill sets,

interestingly.
So we are a nice blend of sales,

marketing and advocacy and that
works really well for us because

we knew not what we were doing.
We still don't know what we're

doing.
Let's get that very clear.

But we knew what we wanted to do
and why certain things were

going to be important.
Initially we were self funded,

so we knew we couldn't make
enough whiskey to satisfy the

demand we wanted to create.
So our primary objective of what

we called phase one was just
about mental availability.

That's what big drinks companies
call it.

But getting the brand out there
noticed, talked about like we

call it a blue tick moment like
Instagram where people would be

like, oh woven.
Yeah, I've not tried it but.

I hear it's decent or it's
credible.

It's not just a fad or a fake
thing like it's got substance.

And the right.
People are saying the right

things about it.
So we we had a lot of existing

relationships we were able to
lean into and a lot of people

had either mentored us or helped
us.

And the brand?
We built was not really about

us.
It's about the relationship

between.
Us and everyone.

Else and so it's quite a
friendly, warm brand.

To approach people with because
we're talking about the cool

distilleries we're getting casks
from to make our blends, or

we're talking about the cool
distilleries we're working with

to.
Bottle our product because we

only use third party production
and as ex bartenders we're able

to walk in and really connect
with licensees and bar owners

because.
We are probably like painfully

out of touch from that world
now, but that's where our

journey started and for us, it's
the most important, most

important channel for us as a
new brand because we understand

that's where the reputations
emerge.

From that's these people in the
independent off trade.

We talk about the fact that
these independent passion

project whiskey shops, they hand
sell every bottle.

So you don't just get the
product, you get a story or a

way to drink it or a
recommendation that you use when

you get that bottle And you say
the guy in the shop said you

should drink it in this cocktail
or this way.

And we love that because that's
they are like the unsung heroes

of the whiskey industry, those
sales guys in shops that hand

sell.
Every bottle.

But bartenders do that in the
entree as well.

They upsell, they make
recommendations.

They say, oh, you've ordered
that.

Have you heard of this?
And we've done it in the way

that I just described it
independent of trade first,

because that's where our
proposition and price point is.

We did get a lot of.
Support from our domestic

Edinburgh bar scene because of
friends and relationships.

But realistically we're in a
50CL, we're about £50 and it's

not quite cheap enough to work
in cocktails for people.

So we were going into these bars
and we were like, hey, we just

wanted to let you know and it
was almost like the anti cell.

It's like we've launched, you
might have seen it online.

You're very important to us as a
bar.

This is our home turf, like we
want to be in here.

But the reason we're not coming
to sell this product to you now

is because everything we're
doing is a limited edition.

We don't want to piss you off by
asking you to put it on a

cocktail list and then you go to
reorder it and you can't.

But we wanted to make sure that
you tasted it, you knew it, you

had a chance to ask any
questions.

And we'll see you in nine months
when hopefully we get to the

level where we can do a
continuous liquid.

At a price.
Point that is going to work for

you and everyone of course
listed the because they were

like.
That's so cool.

Love what you guys are doing,
you guys, that's such a great

story.
Really appreciate you coming to

see us and let us taste it.
First, what can we do to help

you?
And so we we were doing it out

of courtesy to like our own
community, telling them that

this will be for you in time.
But at the moment it's not.

And it's backfired because most
of our volume in Scotland went

through the entree and there
were all these cocktail lists in

town with like.
Our cocktails scored out because

they couldn't get hold of the
product anymore.

This is this is super insightful
because first of all the

launching in the off trade first
which is of course the whiskey

is quite peculiar in certain
extents and I we if it was a

gene brand we would be having it
probably like a different

conversation but it's very
interesting like what you're

saying firstly about the off
trade and then also about how

you how it played and I heard a
few words that resonates with me

which is the home turf, the
importance of winning in the

home turf.
You cannot have a Scotch whiskey

not known in Scotland first of
all and of course that then when

you play with the blends and
when you play with duffer the

other worlds whiskey geographies
then you can play with that

thing.
But there is that element and

then also the fact that it
really, the liquid I hear plays

such a strong role that then you
can really start from there and

build the relationship with
who's going to sell it

afterwards, right?
I think we put pressure on

ourselves just to get out there
and make it real because we were

like as soon as we saw the
insight that it was just after

Compass Box had celebrated their
twenty year anniversary and I

was listening to John Glazer on
a podcast and I was like I just

had this aha moment that.
I won't go into our origin

story, but we were.
We fell in love with whiskey as

bartenders in Scotland, and we
would spend our Sunday walking

around Leaf, the old blending
district of Edinburgh, looking

at all the old warehouses,
trying to work out which brands

might have been there and
whatever.

We were total geeks and we had
joked about starting a leaf

whiskey.
And then we all went off and got

proper jobs and worked in the
industry and we're trying to do

what we wanted to do in whiskey
from the inside and banging our

head against the wall.
And then heard John Glaser

talking about Compass Box 20
years after it had started.

And I was, I was like no one's
come since.

They are still the new kids on
the block in blending.

But the world of whiskey has
changed so much in in that 20

year period.
So that's where we were like

okay, let's go for this.
But I think.

For us, as soon as we had that
realization that we could maybe

do this, we got super paranoid
that if we didn't do it like now

someone.
Else would.

And they would do it first and
quicker.

And we're definitely not the
first mover.

We're 20 years after Compass
Books, but within the two years

that we've launched, there's now
two or three other similar

outfits in Scotland that are
trying to reappraise blending.

The ones come from Beam Santori.
One's an independent, so we're

really happy that we just went
for it quick and that meant

doing things the complete wrong
way around.

And it's that idea that having
something like I'm a bit of a

procrastinator in the way I
work, like, I'll always wait for

the perfect window of
opportunity to write this blog

post or whatever.
And of course, it never happens.

But two kids and like work and a
company that's all over the

place.
So the trick is to just start

it, even if you have the
thought.

It's like open a tab on the
mobile phone and.

Start it so it's.
In your recent documents, and it

increases the likelihood even if
it's a.

Pile of rubbish.
The first time you've just got

all your thoughts down.
At least then you know that it's

not starting something from
scratch.

It's an editing job that you
need to do on it, or it's

restructuring and that's how
things get done.

But you wait for the perfect
time to do something.

And it will never come, so
you'll never do it.

And I think that was the biggest
thing is we've got one of our

cofounders.
Is Nick Ravenhall?

He is from New Zealand.
He's got some merry blood in

him, but he's also like a world
championship lacrosse player and

then coach and he brings that
like mentality to business where

it's like.
Just go.

And he has No Fear.
Like we've done personality

tests at previous companies
where you, you know, map how how

like I was like why are we
always fighting?

And he doesn't see fear, like he
just, it doesn't register on

him.
So I see a lot of risk and fear

in things and he's like, I've
already sent 5 emails and it's

in motion.
And then things happen, and I

think that's a good insight.
About how we started, because we

talked about it for 20 years and
then one day we decided that we

should probably make it real.
And within a week we had the

business plan that Pete had
written.

Nick had already sorted out some
supply and I was like, oh, the

pressure is now on me to get the
packaging and bottle and brand

work done.
It's because.

It's already in motion, whereas
I would have just sat on it for

another few weeks, so we.
Very much carried that momentum

into.
The way we seeded in the on

trade, the off trade export,
just trying to what's the worst

that can happen and it was
during lockdown so it was a

little bit easier to get hold of
people.

And we were just reaching out to
people saying this is what we

want to do.
This is what we're about, this

is.
Our vision for what we think

this could be, and it's that
thing of like lead generation.

Where you speak to 10 people,
one of them says, I can't help

you, but I can put you in touch
with this person who might be

able to.
And then you start again and

it's it's not just like a
numbers game, but it's having

the discipline and the self
belief to realize that every

door that closes in your face
isn't the end, it's a potential

new beginning.
I think you you say this.

In some of your content.
Is There might be a bar that you

really want to list your
product, but there's no point

being in a bar if the only
reason they've listed your

product is your persistence.
And if they're not interested in

stocking your product, it's a
waste of everyone's time.

And sometimes no is the best
thing, because if they say yes,

but they don't really invest
emotionally in the brand, it

becomes part of your.
Call list.

You're dropping in there once a
week.

You're scratching your head as
to like why.

If we not got from one bottle to
a case, what's going wrong?

You're questioning the brand.
They're just not interested.

And sometimes it's okay to just
call a spade a spade and say

okay that that it isn't working.
That's Okay.

And concentrate on the bars
where you can get that turnover

and who are buying in
emotionally and who are giving

you time with their staff to
train them and tell them about

the brand.
And who are bringing you other

opportunities to to grow the
business together.

If these relationships are like
a marriage you you'd much rather

be married to someone who's at
least got an interest in the

commitment with you, rather than
someone who might look for see

but has no interest in making.
I totally relate to what you're

saying.
It makes me think of my post

that always creates a lot of
pros and cons.

Is the 111 case in one bar is
better than 6 bottles and six

bars.
So it's at the beginning you

have to start doing those small
experiments because you don't

actually know when it's going to
turn out nicely in terms of

sellout.
But then I'm always struggling

with brands trying to spread
across the city, especially

because if you've got the
muscles now I'm talking like

more of a big brands kind of
situation, not as more brand.

If you've got the muscle, you
can call up your wholesalers and

make it available everywhere if
you want, but then it would just

collect dust on the shelf.
So you may have achieved your

monthly budget of sell in, but
sell out is never going to come

and you're never going to sell
in again now.

So when you are a small brand,
you don't have that problem

because you don't have that big
power and muscles in the market,

but you also have less resources
and less time resources because

then it's only Duncan in that
city going around.

So it's even more crucial to be
effective and say I'd rather

spend time with these 10 bars
that buy constantly, every week,

repeatedly, rather than having
100 bars that I need to call on

all across the city.
And it's a big city and it's

basically a waste of time now.
And I'm bridging to my next

question which is woven to this
example.

You can talk more generically
about your previous experience

as well.
It, it starts from the liquid,

There is a liquid, there is
always marketing terms now the

extrinsics and the intrinsics of
the brand.

Now some brands are more flash,
more flashy and look at me kind

of thing less about the liquid,
some are more inner liquid focus

than less about the packaging
and so on.

No as but when when I think of
woven is very much about certain

flavors, certain taste profile.
So you go for a certain type of

people that depending on which
bottle it is that like certain

type of things It could be I
don't know like P did or less P

did or it can be different kind
of thing.

So how does that translate into
a bar list for example on where

to go and hunt?
Because they won't work

everywhere now they will work
only in certain type of places

with certain type of people.
I think what we want to do, and

there's not one piece of data
that says going into Scotch

whiskey blending is a good idea.
It's a category that's losing.

But we looked at that and just
maybe it's the way our brains

are wired.
I'd come through like challenger

brands essentially in any
stagnant category.

I'm looking for the opportunity
where some people are looking

for the exit and that was very
much.

We were whiskey lovers.
We talked about distillery, but

we were like all the problems
that we see in whiskey are

already being fixed by the new
wave of craft distillers about

flavor over mass production
etcetera.

But no one apart from Compass
Books had done it in blending.

And I was like, that's where we
should go, which is where we.

We talked about it for 20 years,
so we had half an idea, but.

We.
Therefore, the stories told in

Blend are usually consistency.
Brand Johnny Walker.

You tell the story about Johnny
Walker.

Some of it is a liquid story,
but it's very much a story of

scale, consistency, secret
recipes, opaque, no

transparency.
And it's like a story of

success.
We wanted to tell a very

different story, which was using
some of the craft levers, you

know, about storytelling, about
flavor, about liquid, about why

we were doing it, celebrating.
And this is because we were.

Our first four whiskeys took us
to 1000 bottles in total.

That was obviously a problem,
but we tried to lean into it and

make it an advantage by saying
this is what blending.

Could be.
If done at this scale, we can do

things that other people just
can't or won't, the way we

blended, the way we reduced.
So almost by accident, we were

borrowing techniques from cognac
production or Japanese whiskey

making.
And we were like.

As soon as we introduced them as
blends, the moment we started

telling people about the liquids
and flavor and technique,

suddenly they weren't.
Approaching them like blends

anymore, they were holding them
up and looking at them like they

were a fine single ball and we
were like.

That's the shift that we're
trying to do in this category.

So we purposefully made a lot of
our storytelling introduction

tactics like start at the liquid
and work back towards the brand.

Because if we just said, oh,
it's a new blended whiskey

called woven, people would have
gone blends.

Yeah, I know blends are all.
The same.

There are consistent, huge mass
production and it's a ridiculous

thing to think that we can
overturn category perceptions

like that's a 25 year mission.
But that's essentially what

we're trying to do is say that
for us anyway.

There's a lot of stuff that
hasn't been right with blending

in the past, but it's not
blending per se, it's more.

The way blending was led through
certain dynamics or certain I

suppose industry trends and
techniques that became rife and

the scale essentially and so
we're trying to start a

conversation and.
Of course, the first thing

people talk about in craft
products is liquid and flavor

and the story and the why and
all of that's really important

to us.
So we thought that.

We should anchor the brand in
those things rather than trying

to make the brand about personal
success or any other sort of non

liquid related thing.
And that works because the

people we're speaking to,
independent retailers or bars,

that's something they can get on
board with because we're not

going to go in and win a
commercial conversation right

now, our sales pitch is not.
Here's the category data showing

that you should have more
blended whiskey on your back

part, because it's the opposite
is true.

So we have to win.
Like.

Hearts and minds and pull at
their heartstrings and let them

taste it and discover it.
And buy in to the vision or the

mission at an emotional level
and a liquid level because we

need them to play like the avant
gardist for us and say.

When someone comes in and orders
like a standard single.

Malt that is like everywhere,
but not amazing or there's not

much excitement about it.
We need them to start diverting

people and say, oh, if you like
that this is actually a blend

but and it's that but and we
need them to then follow in with

like three things about liquid
or us or the ethos that

convinced that.
Customer to go against the grain

to use the pun and maybe give
blending a chance, which is and

that must have been I worked on
Hendricks.

For most of my career, at
William Grant's, they did the

same thing.
Gin was in the doldrums, Bombay

Sapphire had come out and
Hendricks was that challenger

brand in a category that was I
think double or triple the price

of sort of standard gin when it
launched.

And no one was asking for super
premium gin.

And I think they did the similar
thing where they had a liquid

story, they had a recognizable
bottle.

They had the right people and
they had to get the right people

on board early to then start
seeding that message and that,

oh, maybe gin could be
interesting or maybe you should

try this gin or we've got this
new thing.

It's gin, but it's not like the
gins, you know, and.

I think it's maybe easier for
challenger brands in the market

because they can come.
And I don't mean.

Disrupt in like brew dog way,
but like people are.

People go to bars to have
experiences and offering

something new or different
that's maybe slightly off pieced

like it is an experience.
And that's where natural wines

coming in to to replace
incumbent wine or craft beer

came in to replace beer.
Saying, oh, it's like that thing

that you're comfortable with,
but it's over here.

No one wants to be middle of the
road.

Mainstream, obvious, like.
People define themselves through

these slight quirks in their
choices, and I think spirits

offers people that.
Divergence that allows them to

say I'm a this drinker miscal
type of person or a Negroni or

an oldfashioned or a Margarita
or whatever.

Like it's easy to do that.
And to your point like for

example when I first tried
Hendrix, I mentioned in another

episode, so I won't go long on
that one.

But I was not drinking gin and I
started drinking gin because of

that because it was the unusual
gin and and and all my friends

that were not drinking gin, I
got them into drinking Hendrix.

I should have got money back in
the days.

You know how many people I got
into gin and Sonny with Hendrix.

But it's very often like what
you say is like taking a an

excuse or a no.
To your previous point about

sometimes the no, it is your
ally rather than your enemy

because that's what people can
relate to.

And then it's how I'm having a
gin and Sonic, oh, I don't drink

gin.
Oh, if you don't drink gin then

you should try this one.
And then to your point it would

be I'm just making it up but it
would be like, no, I drink, I

only drink single malt whiskey
and that's like I don't do, I

don't do blends.
I don't like blends.

Oh, if you don't like blends
then you should try woven kind

of thing.
And it's almost like that bridge

that fishes from a category
pool, a pool that it that is the

opposite of what you would think
of.

So listening to you, I think
that probably your target is

actually single mold drinkers
rather than blend blended

whiskey drinkers, which is
counterintuitive because it's a

blended whiskey.
But that's the way to approach

the issue because you are, you
get people off guard because

then it's okay.
Let me check this out.

Let me give it a try.
And then it becomes, it ignites

the conversation and it drives
something, yeah.

I actually think it's something
that the best brands do really

well because we sit in our ivory
tower and brand world obsessing

over the individual words on a
PowerPoint slide about what this

brand is about, but then you get
to the on trade.

And bartenders, They are like
walking, talking Wikipedia's.

They have to learn so much stuff
about so many brands, memorize

the cocktail list, know how to
do hospitality, have like spider

senses on like the air con, the
music, the service, the

cocktails and a gantry of 200
spirits behind them and a wine

list and beers.
It's crazy if we think that

they're going to remember.
More than two things, three

things about your brand if
you're lucky.

And so I think some brands are
very good at this, some brands

don't even know exists, but you
need to give shorthand to a

bartender so that they look at
your product and they think

either what the serve is or or
goes like where it plays in the

category even.
Like a bar.

Will be exposed.
To let's say 10 different gin

brands trainings.
And none of those gin brands

will often talk about the other
gin brands in the bar.

Whereas when I did gin
trainings, I would go in and

make sure that I noted down
which other gins sat.

Around our bottle.
In the bar so I could make the

training really useful to them
and say, listen, you've got

these five gins, this one is
your Super Juniper.

Classic, dry.
And then where we are is

somewhere in the middle.
And then you've got the more new

western floral styles here.
So your opportunity, if you want

to push someone to our brand or
if you want to offer them a

slightly different experience to
that mainstream brand that sits

next to it, then this is where
you pushed them.

And of course, like some of it
was tactical and like the evil

marketeer in me now realizes
that.

It's maybe a slightly unfair
tactic because you're in a

position of trust and training,
but to give them a vision of the

category with your.
Brand either at the heart of it,

or in relation to these, or in
relation.

To these cocktails.
And it was like, there's 100

things I could wish that they
remembered from the training,

but the top two would be like
makes a great martini, get

served with this garnish.
And is a credible upsell from

these three gins around it.
And and if I could get those

three things over the line, none
of which were about the history

of the brand or the family or
whatever that has equipped them

to have success with the brand.
And I think we have this

impression in spirits that
people have loads of time and

loads of attention.
But they don't.

They look for shorthand, and the
main thing that people at point

of purchase are thinking is I
don't know what to order.

I think it's 75% of people in
the entree approach the bar with

no idea what they're going to
order.

And then all of a sudden it's
like you've got the attention of

the bartender panic.
Sets in, it's I don't want to be

laughed at.
I don't want to buy something I

don't want to like.
Cripple myself by spending too

much money by accident.
So you look for Beacon brands,

and that's why brands like
Hendricks do so well.

Because it's like known.
It's everywhere.

It's trusted.
It's got an iconic bottle.

Everyone knows it's not the most
expensive, but it's also not the

cheapest.
You're going to walk back, put

it on the table, and no one's
going to laugh at you.

You might not be the avant-garde
gym curator amongst your

friends, but it's a safe choice.
And that's what people.

I believe are looking for, but
you can make your brand safer by

having bartenders understand
where it sits.

And I think Monkey Shoulder,
which I can see over your

shoulder in the video.
They do a great job of it,

right, because it's a blended
malt Scotch.

But they tell bartenders they do
a tasting, and sometimes they're

tasting it next to Maker's Mark.
And they had this internal

mantra that was like sea makers
think monkey and it meant that

if a sales guy walked into a.
Bar and saw that.

They were having success with
Maker's Mark.

It was validation that Monkey
Shoulder would be a good go.

You know there was a
conversation to be had because

flavor profile and of course
that's smart thinking from a big

international drinks company
that are thinking cross category

because they're like.
Who are we going to steal from

Bourbon?
People looking to graduate from

Bourbon into Scotch makers has a
good loyal following, and if we

can train bartenders of swap Out
a Bourbon for Monkey Shoulder,

it's shorthand for them.
It's so easy to remember someone

orders old fashioned or Mint
Julep they go.

I'm feeling a bit crazy.
Do you want to try it with this

funny what you say because I see
I have exactly an example of a

bar in Pride.
They used to do oldfashioned or

make it mark and now they do it
on on on monkey shoulder.

So that's a spot on.
What I like about what you're

saying is that there's a few
things that one way that I see

them, a big geography fun.
And now we are talking like I'm

sitting in pride, you're sitting
in Adelaide.

So we are a few hours apart from
each other and a few kilometers

apart and it's all about how you
see when you look at the map now

there's if you look at from a
European perspective, Europe is

in the middle.
If you look at it from an

Australia perspective, that's a
little bit of a challenge

because Australia is never in
the center of any map.

But if you look at it from a US
perspective or from an Asian

perspective, like perspective
totally changes not.

And that's where you set the
focus and the epicenter of that

map now.
But to your point, whatever

brand you're working with.
Trying to navigate who's left,

right, up and down north-south,
east, West kind of thing of on

that back bar map and try to
help navigate that bartender

that you're having a training on
to to really say, OK, this is

how I play with these brands and
it's not, I mean you were saying

like it was a bit of an unfair
way, but I don't think it's

unfair.
It's just a matter of how to

where you centered the map kind
of thing now because then

something else will come and
then Hendricks would be on A to

the West of somebody or to the
north of somebody and it

wouldn't be in the center.
But.

So it's very interesting and
what I hear from your

conversation is that there is
something to be thought about

liquid first rather than brand
1st and category first because

there's always this thing like
rum fights rum, Scotch fights,

Scotch blends, fights blends.
It's more like OK if you drink

that kind of I I remember at
some point I was having

conversation to somebody with
somebody that there was they had

the tequila, I think it's what
it's called story with tequila

from a guy, Michael Ballenstein,
I think it's his name and he was

saying like it's aged in Scotch
barrels.

It's a tequila that is age in
Scotch barrels.

So I'm approaching Scotch
drinkers and bars that sells

Scotch whiskey rather than
tequila bars and Mexican

restaurants because that's where
I'm taking the inspiration from

So very often is to your example
about Scotch versus bourbon or

it could be Gene versus vodka or
Mesca or Gene versus tequila or

tequila and Mesca because big
companies think in silos and

it's like we're fighting rums,
who's the rum was?

Who's the competitive sets?
But consumer don't think it that

way.
The consumer thing taste

profile.
I like this kind of sweet ish

stuff.
I like bitter.

I like sour.
I like certain different ways

And also to to your previous
point, the importance of social

currency.
So allowed, no matter how

trained people are, whether you
can be a award-winning bartender

or like a guy or a girl with a
job that is outside of the

industry.
But when you are at that dinner

or at that after work, if you
can have those two worlds that

make you look cool and make you
look, you know about what you're

doing, That's the easy way.
And I see all brands that win

are the ones that are at to your
point like safe choices.

Think of an upper spritz as an
example.

Nobody's going to be, unless you
go to a fancy cocktail buzz,

nobody's going to get pointed at
for ordering a spritz, right, or

for doing a Gene and Sonic.
It's challenging.

But if you can do it in a nice
way that you actually give

ammunition to somebody to say,
oh, I'm going to look cool

because I'm going to bring this
bottle to this dinner.

And I'm going to explain it in a
very short way with one

sentence, what this is about and
why the person I'm gifting it to

knows about it, then it's a win.
Win for everyone when you make

it too complicated, that's where
brands struggle.

And then is what was it about
that brand kind of thing?

Yeah, I think it comes down to
relevance at the end of the day,

like everyone thinks their
brand's going to be super

relevant in a bar.
That's not necessarily objective

truth.
So you need to find ways of

making your brand relevant
within the category within the.

And that is the stories you
tell.

They have to be either so
interesting that they're

interesting in themselves or
interesting in the context of

what else is available or
happening in that bar, so that

you have a role in the drama
that unfolds between bartender

and consumer.
Because it's like being at a

party.
There's loads of people, but how

do you make sure you're the
guest?

That the bartender.
Introduces to their guest.

You need a hoot.
In the brand and it might be a

serve and the easiest one for
brands which I don't understand

why more brands don't do.
It's like, oh it makes an

unusually good old fashioned or
it makes an unusually good

mojito and it's like the next
time someone orders mojito light

bulb goes off in the bartender's
mind.

Oh, I'm going to try it with
that one because they said it

makes an unusually good martini
and.

It's as simple as that.
But what you've done is provided

a hook on your brand that isn't
the heritage, the history, the

story, the distillation process.
It's a practical thing that they

can literally grab hold of and
say I have a good authority from

the brand owner that this makes
a really good and if you pick a

slightly avant-garde cocktail
like a paper plane or something,

that's like trending.
I was writing a a post a couple

of days ago about this exactly.
When there's a tendency of brand

owners choosing their target
cocktails from an ad agency kind

of perspective, this is cool.
So you should go for this one

kind of thing.
And to your point, like the

classics are classics for a
reason.

So if you take, whether it's an
old classic or a modern classic

like the penicillin or porn star
martini or like stuff that is

perceived as a classic, but it
is actually not that old, then

you make it much easier.
And also sometimes it's like

when you try, what I try to
convey as a message is that you

don't know what's going to be.
Take it vermouth as an example.

You don't know if it's going to
be great with Oliver dear, or

with Negroni, or with Manhattan,
but your liquid proposition must

skew towards some of these.
And maybe it it goes well with a

whiskey, or it goes better with
gin or so on and try to put it

there on the table and then shut
up and listen to the bartender

and let them.
Because if you dictate,

bartenders are often prima
donnas now and it's who are you

to tell me how to do an
oldfashioned?

Are you crazy?
Like you're coming here with

your with a white shirt trying
to teach me how to do an

oldfashioned?
But if you say people usually do

like great oldfashioned or
whatever, and then you lay down

like a couple of cocktails and
then tested in 10 bars going

back to insides, like you don't
need a huge in size budget for

that.
And there's actually out of 10

bars where I dropped this three
cocktails, they all picked the

Boulevard there.
So I'm going to go to the next

10 saying that the Boulevard
there is the preferred cocktail

with this, because it's not
coming from me or my inner

circle and my eco chamber, but
it comes from a handful of cool

bartenders from this city that
actually told me that.

And it's about telling them what
your.

Product does exactly.
For them.

It's not what your product is.
And being able to say something

like the thing that people love
about this whiskey is.

Mouthfeel.
It's oily and waxy, and so when

you make cocktails with it, it
makes a Manhattan.

But instead of being like the
spicy ryled Manhattan, you get

this soft mouth coating.
Oily Manhattan.

That's the stuff bartenders
remember, because they're like,

oh, I want to make an oily, soft
Manhattan as opposed to a

classic rye Manhattan.
This is a tool.

That serves my purpose with that
goal, and they might not have

even known that they wanted to
do that.

But you tell them something that
they aren't aware of, suddenly

their ears prick up.
You're not just talking about

your branch.
You're empowering them to do

something that you're assuming
they might want to do, and

suddenly you've delivered value
in that conversation rather than

just product messaging.
But yeah, I think the serve

thing is crazy because everyone
wants a perfect serve.

Everyone wants a ritual serve,
everyone wants to make their

version of the Hendrickson
clinic.

But a lot of the work I do in
like Agency World is explaining

to people that a perfect serve
is not just a drink, It's

actually an ecosystem of things
that relates to education,

training customers, needs,
states.

What's practical?
And then how you activate it and

how you talk about it.
And it's, as you said, bars

don't like being dictated to,
especially when it comes to

things they have to spend money
on.

So like, Oh no, if you want to
serve our brand, you have to go

out and buy these 12 different
types of fruit.

Because this is how we serve our
gin and tonic, and brands get

really upset when they walk into
a bar and they're like, no,

you're serving our drink wrong.
So I think Hendrix was a bit of

a Unicorn with cucumber.
It works at a liquid level.

But it still, I think we're
going back like 10 years.

Hendricks was 15 years old or
something and they did some

research in the UK and everyone
thought that it was a runaway

success.
It still only had 60% compliance

with the cucumber serve and so
there and started like a huge

operation to make sure as the
brand was deepening its

footprint into more mainstream.
Places that the serve.

Went with it.
And of course.

That's you don't get that just
by asking.

You have to come up with
consumer campaigns, with POS,

with merchandise like strategies
to go.

And it goes back to what's in it
for them.

Because if you explain that the
cucumber to this example

enhances some flavors because
there's actual cucumber in the

gin, then it's one thing.
But then if you come up with a

random flower or veggie or
fruits that has nothing to do

with the recipe, just because it
looks cool on a glass, because

your agency told you to do that,
because it's nice on Instagram

because it's Instagramable, then
it doesn't make any sense now.

And also it's about okay if you
serve it with the cucumber

people, our drink Hendrix and
they expect the cucumber.

So by not giving the cucumber in
that serve, you are doing it a

disservice to your customers
that next time I'm going to go

on a random mainstream gin
because it's not worth paying

more for anymore because they
want to be looked.

Yeah, they want their gin, gin
and Sonic, you know, showcase

the cucumber because they like
that flavor.

Maybe they don't like the
juniper part of the gin and

Sonic, there is a reason why
certain things work.

But then if you go there with
the policeman hats on.

Oh, you should do the cucumber.
Where's the cucumber?

You're not compliant.
Okay.

I'm going to talk to the brand
ambassador.

I'm going to set up a training
for you on this.

Then it becomes a bit of a who
the hell are you?

I'm going to go with this other
brand that is not so big yet.

But I remember, for example,
when I was launching Peroni in

in Barcelona many years ago, I
was meeting.

It was about the time that Jean
Marra was starting in Barcelona.

And I loved what they were doing
because, for example, their

serve was on, of course, it was
a Mediterranean gene, which was

totally different than anything
else.

And they had all these because
they had basil, Rosemary, thyme

and other botanicals.
And the serve was very flexible,

for example.
So he was like, whatever, you've

got basil put basil in, you've
got Rosemary, put Rosemary in,

as long as it's something that
actually goes with it.

Because on the bottle it
actually says what's in it as a

botanical.
But then you make it flexible

enough that you're not shooting
people for not having basil if

they've only got fine and the
and the funny situation.

Now that after what Hendrix has
done and now then what Gin Mart

has done, now it got wild.
I go out in Prague and now it's

still the random whatever gin
you order, you get a random it's

like a lottery on the garnish.
You get a thigh on a on on

something you get a cucumber on.
Or sometimes they do cucumber on

everything.
Or they ask you do you want

lemon, lime or cucumber or do
you want thyme or lemon?

And some places just okay.
This gone a bit too far but it

goes.
It has to be bar friendly

because the bar manager is not
going to go to the market by

several different Botanics.
Yeah, I think it's crazy.

I think once you get to the
level.

Hendricks at or Guinness is
another good example in beer.

Like they've got data to back it
up that if you don't serve it

the way that we are saying is
the perfect serve, people will

be disappointed And that's bad
for both our businesses.

So you can have a logical data
led conversation that I think I

remember, Diaz, you're having a
stat that a Guinness drinker

will seek out a pub with good
Guinness and take their friends

there.
But if you serve bad Guinness

they will leave the pub and take
their friends with them.

So the power of the serve, and
I'm sure it's the same in

spirits, but.
I think it's an interesting area

because ultimately you need it
to be a partnership, not a

dictatorship.
That's all for today.

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Duncan, you will find all the

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