Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Bristol Unpacked with Neil Maggs brings you fascinating and challenging conversations from characters of all stripes on big topics facing the city and beyond.
Brought to you by the Bristol Cable, a new kind of newspaper for Bristol 100% community owned by 2,200 members. Join them for just £1 a month and own your media.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
Bristol Unpacked from the archive – Carla Denyer, October 2021 transcript
Voiceover – Adam Quarshie
Hi. Adam Quarshie here, this week, we're bringing you another episode from the Bristol Unpacked archives. It's Green MP Carla Denyer, who was interviewed by Neil in October 2021. That was just after her election as co-chair of the Green Party, and three years before her election to Parliament as the MP for Bristol Central in 2024. How has she measured up against the early commitments she expressed in this interview? We've dropped a link to her voting record in the description so you can see for yourself. Over to Neil…
Interview highlight – Carla Denyer
I think that a lot of voters are increasingly annoyed with that perception of being owned by the Labour Party. That's that's not the case, and are tired of voting tactically for a candidate that they see as the least, worst option, and are seeing, especially in places like Bristol, Brighton, Norwich, Sheffield, that if they want a green councillor, they want green policies, then they can vote Green and they'll get Green.
Neil Maggs
I'm Neil Maggs, and this is Bristol Unpacked, speaking to fascinating Bristolians on topics where others may fear to tread. Brought to you by the city's community owned media, the Bristol Cable. In this week's episode of Bristol Unpacked, we talk to Carla Denyer, councillor for Clifton Down and the newly elected co leader of the Green Party. We talk about how she will build on the national momentum and green surge key strategies and policies, how this will impact on national politics. Will the Greens be taken seriously and seen as an electoral force? And local politics? Did a certain leader's heart sink when she was announced as leader of the Greens last week?
Carla – I’ve got to say, congratulations. Bit exciting isn't it?
Carla Denyer
Yeah. It hasn't really sunk in yet. To be honest, when people are like, and this is Carla Denyer, the co-leader of the Green Party of England, Wales, I sort of make a face like, Oh, is that me?
Neil Maggs
Have you been inundated with media approaches?
Carla Denyer
Yes, totally inundated. On the day that we announced, which was Friday, the first of October, I was in back to back interviews from, well, the announcement was at 1030 and I was in back to back interviews until nearly 6pm that day. And then my my co leader, Adrian, was also doing some the next day, and then I'm doing loads today as well. And it's really positive that news outlets that perhaps hadn't previously been so interested in the Green Party are getting in touch. You know, one of the interviews I did on the first day was with the Financial Times, for example…
Neil Maggs
Oh, cool. And you are, I think I'm right. I'm somebody will correct me. You are the first national political party leader based or from or living in Bristol.
Carla Denyer
I think I am, yes, as far as I know…
Neil Maggs
but it's quite good for Bristol, isn't it, in a way, gonna get, like, a lot of national kind of attention as well for the city?
Carla Denyer
I hope so. Yeah. So my my co leader, Adrian, is based in Norwich, and so that makes us the first, certainly in Green Party history. We're the first leaders of the party from outside London or the south east.
Neil Maggs
That's good. That's good. Have you been congratulated by the great and good of Bristol since you've won?
Carla Denyer
I'm not actually in Bristol yet. I guess I will. I had to come up to London for the announcement, and then I had some press up here, and I will be back in Bristol soon. I'll be back in Bristol by the time this goes out.
Neil Maggs
Do you think when you won? The heart sank for Mayor Marvin Rees?
Carla Denyer
Well, I wouldn't like to second guess how he felt about it.
Neil Maggs
He hasn't sent you his congratulations then yet, no?
Carla Denyer
He might have done. I must admit, I'm slightly behind on my councillor emails.
Neil Maggs
This could be in your inbox, maybe. I mean, I kind of jest, but actually, in many regards, it's going to be quite interesting. Now, the picture in Bristol is, you know, the Green Party has the same numbers of councillors as Labour. So the kind of dynamic, political dynamic has changed in the chamber anyway, with you now being Green leader, co leader. They're obviously being, you know, as there is in politics, there's sort of personality clashes and policy and decisions across both, you know, several parties in the city. Do you think they might be a bit worried now more, Labour in Bristol?
Carla Denyer
Well, I think they should be worried. We, you know, we not only have the same number of councillors, but we also came a strong second place on the mayoral election and a huge majority of the councillors within the Bristol West constituency are now Green Party councillors.
Neil Maggs
It's interesting that, isn't it, because I think that feeds into the national picture with Labour, even though Thangam Debbonaire won that seat effectively twice as MP with one of the biggest majorities in the country. And I mean, councillors across, 141 councils the Green Party have got to be taken seriously now nationally and obviously locally. In Bristol West, I presume you're going to stand, are you?
Carla Denyer
Yeah, I was, I've been re selected by my local party already. So yes, I am the candidate for Bristol West, or possibly Bristol Central, as it may be known.
Neil Maggs
So the new one – yeah, the boundary change, that's a key seat, isn't it? Would you argue that perhaps while sort of nationally, the direction of Labour is to become perhaps a bit more centrist and a bit more practical about trying to gain power with Keir Starmer, we've just seen the Labour Party Conference in Brighton, where he's trying to shake off elements of the left, the elements of a kind of, perhaps even, dare I say, younger demographic, that is where the Greens can start to make some serious ground. And is that part of your strategy?
Carla Denyer
Yes, I think so. And I think it's worth saying that at least in the 10 years that I've been a Green Party member, that's where the Green Party has always been. If Labour want to vacate that space and leave that to the Greens, that's fine with me.
Neil Maggs
You always think they've been to the left, because there's some criticism on the left in the past. So the Greens been seen as a kind of, you know, sort of, you probably heard the sort of kiwi, mango, watermelon kind of thing around Green Party. You've got the kiwi, the traditional environmentalists. You've got the mangoes, which are green Liberal Democrats, and watermelons which are sort of eco socialists. This is a thing that sort of banded about the Green Party, and there was criticism for them being a little bit middle class and a bit centrist and a bit worthy by people of the left. Do you accept that that was the perception?
Carla Denyer
I accept that it was the perception. I don't think it was a very accurate reflection of our actual policies, but I think it was a fair reflection of some of the people that vote for us and I and you know, if you actually objectively look at our policies, we are very clearly in favour of, you know, publicly and democratically owned public services, fighting austerity, which you know, we were doing at a time when Labour thought that austerity was was a perfectly good idea. So, you know, objectively, I think our policies are on the left, but I think that what we bring is a different approach, perhaps than Labour do, in that there are people I know, that I knew when I was younger, who are the kind of people who would never dream of voting Labour. But actually, when you present left wing policies with a more grassroots, bottom up perspective, which is really the approach that the Green Party takes, wherever possible. It's about making decisions at the lowest practicable level in and of the community, involving the people who are affected by them. Then often people from across the political spectrum actually agree with and really like those policies. And so…
Neil Maggs
Because you don't whip members. Do you, your party? So just as a general kind of rule, you can, you can vote in in any direction, which is a slightly different model than other political parties.
Carla Denyer
Yes. And also, we're a really non hierarchical party, so our policies are set by members, one member, one vote at conference. Yeah, I wanted to be part of a party where, as a member, I could have a positive influence. So I used to work in renewable energy. I'm an engineer by training, and I really liked the Green Party, but I thought that our energy policy was a little bit out to date, and could do with a little bit more detail. And so I joined, and very quickly got involved in the Energy Policy working group to help improve those policies.
Neil Maggs
And you have, I think there's about 53,000 members, or roughly around that, in the Green Party, and yeah, only around 6000 so just over 10% voted for you both to be co leaders.
Carla Denyer
Yeah. So the turnout for the leadership election was 22% which isn't great. I'm not, yeah, I'm not very pleased with that.
Neil Maggs
Why is that then? I mean, that's very low. And you know, you could argue, you know what you've just said around the democratic processes of the Green Party, but effectively, you know, you coming in as leader is arguably a democratic deficit. If you've got, you know, only 22% turnout, and you know only you know, a percentage of those voting for you.
Carla Denyer
Yeah, I'm disappointed with that turnout. And one of the things that Adrian and I were saying in our leadership campaign is that we do think that the party needs to look at its structures and governance, which were set up when the party was about a 10th of the size that it is now, and they worked at the time, but I think they're groaning under the weight a little bit now that we're growing, and obviously we have ambitions to grow much more. And so we need to look at…
Neil Maggs
Was it not promoted enough within the party? That seems incredibly low for for a leadership contest in the political party, 22% of members,
Carla Denyer
Yeah, I don't know exactly what the causes are, to be honest. Obviously, leadership candidates don't get to see behind the curtain in exactly how the electoral returning officers run. Officer is running the election. And we shouldn't, we shouldn't be interfering in that to have a good democracy. But that is something that we want to look at now that the election has happened. It was promoted. Emails were sent to members, but there were some problems with people sort of not receiving the first email, and a few issues. So we do want to look at that. It is, it is a priority.
Neil Maggs
You want to improve the impact upon as leader, on the on the joint leaders, thing, which is obviously a bit different. Can you give me one example where that's been effective in politics?
Carla Denyer
I am very fond of the Green Party's tradition of having joint leaders. It's not, it's not a requirement. So in this leadership election, some of the candidates were standing as job share pairs and some were standing alone. Our system allows either. But I think that it is, it's a healthy reflection of the Green Party's different way of doing leadership that we don't approach leadership as a top down dictatorial mandate where we get to decide everything about the party. It's it's very much recogniing that the way the Green Party does things, we are we're the figureheads we’re spokespeople, externally and internally. We help set the tone of discussions, and we set priorities, and we're part of the Green Party executive, which is the wider sort of executive committee that together makes a lot of the strategic decision to the party. But we're not kind of the single person that's in charge and is going to impose their will on the rest of the party, whether they like it or not…
Neil Maggs
What if you don't get on, you end up not getting on with with each other?
Carla Denyer
Well, you know, we chose to run together. It's not like our names are drawn out of a hat. So I think it's partly up to the candidates to make sure that you're standing with somebody that you agree with on at least the key issues. I'm sure that Adrian and I don't agree on absolutely everything, but yeah, and if we don’t, we work it out.
Neil Maggs
Let's talk about why you won. What did you offer? What did you offer? Differently than the others?
Carla Denyer
I think experience as elected representatives is probably quite a large part of it. We were the only candidates or candidate pair, where both of us have been elected by the public as elected representatives. And I think that that's important, because when you've been a councillor or an MP or a member of the London Assembly or whatever it means that you have persuaded people that probably weren't previously Greens to vote for you, and then once you've been elected, you've had to work with people from across the political spectrum. You know how to communicate with people that have a different perspective, come from a different background, and to bring people with you.
Neil Maggs
Did you have any specific policies sort of that were slightly different than the other candidates?
Carla Denyer
Um, we weren't campaigning on policy proposals because, as leaders, we can't, we can't say, If elected, we will make the Green Party.
Neil Maggs
You can, you can state your case and give your opinion.
Carla Denyer
We can, yeah, and we did on on on various issues that come up. So feel free to ask me if you want to ask my position on a particular thing. But we didn't have a particular policy platform, per se, as an active member of the Green Party, though, I have co proposed loads of loads of motions to conference, including our upcoming autumn conference in a couple of weeks. Quite a lot of the ones that I've been looking at recently have been improving some of our diversity and inclusion policies, for example. So it's only a, this is more of an internal facing thing, but yeah,
Neil Maggs
And on that, there's, there's obviously been quite a big, big source of conflict in the party, as there has also been a little bit in the Labour Party at times as well. On the trans issue, that became quite a heated discussion within the campaign. I don't know internally, but how it operates, but certainly as an outsider looking in through social media, that seemed to be quite a key issue that different factions or different groups or different individuals within the Green Party were trying to kind of wrestle with, yeah, and you have a particular position on that?
Carla Denyer
Yeah, I am very definitely and very clearly pro trans rights – Green Party has policy that trans women are women, trans men and men, non binary identities exist and are valid. And I'm fully behind that. I've also supported specific policies on specific areas of, say, trans healthcare that have gone to and been passed that conference. So yeah, I'm very clearly in support of trans rights, and that said, I do recognise that it's an area of quite like rapid social change, and that not everyone in the UK is maybe fully up to speed on the issues they might not, you know, they might get the get the terms wrong. Sometimes, you know, make mistakes, and I think it's important not to criticise people if they are genuine, honest mistakes. You know, perhaps a lack of understanding,
Neil Maggs
Because that's the interesting thing, isn't it? Tell me if I'm wrong, from your approach with Adrian is very much around trying to professionalise the Green Party, to make them more of an electoral alternative, not just to be a campaign group for green issues to have a broader kind of connection, but also sort of parallel to that, as we have seen a little bit in the battle, as I said, with the Labour Party, is that trans issues do seem to be front and foremost of a lot of rhetoric and a lot of conversations for what is, you know, a small, small percentage of the electorate, and actually, arguably an irrelevancy for the vast majority. So how are you going to square that up?
Carla Denyer
So I think, I kind of think that it's two separate issues we need to internally, have a welcoming and inclusive party to that's welcoming, inclusive to to all people. And that means standing up for trans rights. And it also means having an approach where, if people don't feel fully up to speed on the issue or have some concerns, there's, there's a way of them exploring those issues in a in a well facilitated environment where, there's no such thing as a stupid question. So the Green Party, internally, has what we refer to as liberation groups. So that's LGBTIQA+ Greens, which I'm a member of, Green Party, women, which I'm a member of, and then also other ones, like Greens of colour, disability group and so on. And one of those, the Jewish Greens, has already been running some really good internal workshops, like a road show to local parties on understanding anti semitism and what it is what it isn't, how to recognise it. And I attended the one of those that was in Bristol, and I thought it was really, really good. And I say that as somebody that perhaps didn't know as much about anti semitism before, and so I was one of those people that that sort of 100% meant well, but perhaps was a little bit worried that sometimes I might not get the terminology right, or might not realise that something was anti-Semitic. So the the organisers of LGBTIQA+ greens are thinking of doing something similar around trans rights and Adrian, and I are really keen to support them in doing that, because I think that would be really constructive internally for the party in terms of making sure that all members are aware of the issues that trans people face, yeah, but then externally, you're quite right. And to be honest, I think a lot of our trans members would say the same thing, that we don't want to be talking about this all day, every day. We have to get our policies right. But then, you know, I've got trans friends, who are members, who are like, I want to get on with tackling the climate emergency that you know, they would say they want their rights to be respected, and they want policies that will that will protect their rights. But they're also concerned about all of those other areas, about poverty, you know, about fuel poverty, about the climate, about other types of social injustice that they want to see tackled as well. So we absolutely have to remember everybody else in society.
Neil Maggs
That's a really good point. Because I think there's always that assumption, isn't there in any kind of any kind of group, that people are sort of solely, kind of focused on that, and I think that it's the trans kind of debates been, I would say, kind of largely co opted and jumped on from both sides, often by people that aren't actually have direct lived experience of the issue. Anyway, it's become weaponised, I guess, as a kind of a stick from both sides to hit each other over with. And as you say, probably a large proportion of of people in the trans community, as you say, you know, obviously want to be seen and heard and validated, but also want to be talking about the broader, wider issues as well.
Carla Denyer
Yeah, we, we have to get our policy and our we have to be clear on our policy and communicate it well on trans rights, but not in…
Neil Maggs
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I gotta be honest, I've been in situations with people, you know, in certain communities, and I think you. Probably accept that the Green Party is, you know, is wanting to… you just said earlier about being seen as more left and maybe attracting working class voters as well. You know, I've had conversation with people. They feel so detached from that whole thing that it feels like it doesn't talk to their to their experience and their lives.
Carla Denyer
Yeah, I'm going to push back to you a little bit on that so and I'm also going to make a book recommendation at the same time. I'm currently partway through reading Shon Faye’s book The Transgender Issue, and in it, she pushes back on that framing of trans rights being in opposition to the interests of working class people, because actually, the majority of trans people are working class. They're on low incomes. They're often from working class backgrounds. Their experiences are often somewhat erased by the way that the media, especially the mainstream media, covers these issues. I think it's really important not to frame their interest as kind of one or the other.
Neil Maggs
Sure. When's the last time though you went into a pub in, I don't know, somewhere like Hartcliffe or Southmead and had a conversation with somebody about trans issues or something? Would you accept there is a bit of an issue? Would you accept that? Maybe, perhaps it's how and where the conversation takes place, and who's involved in that, I suppose.
Carla Denyer
Yeah, that's fair.
Neil Maggs
Let's go wider. Let's talk about the Green Party moving from, I guess, a party of protest, to a party of government or a party of increasing more MPs when you see labour or the Tories to a lesser degree, but when you see Labour, you know Labour going for a Green Deal. When you see suddenly the mayor in Bristol being interested in bees and wild meadows and all this sort of stuff. Do you welcome that? Or do you see it as just nicking your ideas?
Carla Denyer
Well, it's, I think it's positive that the other political parties are feeling the pressure so much from the Green Party and from the wider environmental movement that they need to be seen to be talking the talk on climate and environmental issues. But I have to say that,
Neil Maggs
Do you believe that’s sincere?
Carla Denyer
That's the thing my experience so far, is that, generally speaking, there's perhaps a few exceptions, but generally speaking, the other parties are not walking the walk. They're not following that up with actual concrete changes in policy and changes in what's happening on the ground. I mean, listeners based in Bristol will be very aware of examples like Bristol airport, for example, and also the clean air zone in Bristol, which Bristol green councils have been pushing for for years.
Neil Maggs
And you were quite central to the climate emergency stuff. You were quite prominent in that personally, weren't you?
Carla Denyer
I wrote and proposed it, yes!
Neil Maggs
Well, exactly. Because I suppose I'm trying to sort of put myself in your position, which is like, well, actually, you know, this is, this is a good thing, because, you know, power is taking this on. Or is there another side that, in effect, that, you know, the Labour Party is sort of trying to triangulate the Greens a little bit, you know, by, you know, proposing these ideas and sort of put them across as if they're their own.
Carla Denyer
Yeah, but proposals and pledges are worth literally nothing unless they're actually acted on. And you know, it's great that all of the other parties voted for my climate emergency motion in 2018 and agreed to set a carbon neutral target date of 2030 for Bristol.
Neil Maggs
Do they say that it's yours? Carla, do they whether they say it was your idea or not?
Carla Denyer
Funny, you should say that. No, they don't tend to
Neil Maggs
Does that annoy you?
Carla Denyer
Oh, it annoyed me. For the first year or so, I've kind of given up, caring about it now.
Neil Maggs
So it's all PR, then you think, there's no there's no meat and bones? There's no real substance behind it? It's reactive, not proactive?
Carla Denyer
Well, I'd love to be proven wrong, but we're not. I It doesn't look to me as though Bristol is progressing towards that 2030, carbon neutral target date anything like fast enough I've been. I'm hoping to use my role as chair of overview and scrutiny management board, while I already have been using it to scrutinise progress towards the that carbon neutral target date, because it's there's no point having a plan and a strategy unless you're going to turn it into action.
Neil Maggs
But wouldn't it depend which which Labour politician? Because obviously the Metro mayor, Dan Norris, has come out quite strong against Bristol airport, hasn't he, which might have caused a little bit of an internal fracas I don't know. We want to try and get him on the show, but so would it depend he sort of has, you know, quite good green credentials, or sees himself as that, doesn't he?
Carla Denyer
I was certainly pleasantly surprised to see him come out so clearly and strongly against Bristol airport expansion. That was that was a positive intervention from him. I appreciate that.
Neil Maggs
What did you feel about the abstention of Bristol Labour?
Carla Denyer
Yes, the abstention by the representative of Bristol City Council at the West of England meeting was disappointing, especially given that thanks to the motion which the Greens got passed at a full council meeting a little while back now, the mayor and cabinet did have a mandate to vote, a very clear mandate to vote against Bristol airport expansion, and still chose not to.
Neil Maggs
Yeah, that there has been a lot of factional… you know, it's politics. This is going to happen. But there's been a lot of sort of factional infighting, between Labour and the Greens in the city, and lots of people, probably outside of Bristol, kind of see the the only way of probably thwarting a continual dominance of a Tory government is for some kind of left Alliance. And yet in Bristol, it feels like anything, but that at times…
Carla Denyer
Well, the Green Party are always happy to work with other parties on areas we agree, and we always have been.
Neil Maggs
Is it more of a sort of a few personality clashes, perhaps in Bristol, rather than policy?
Carla Denyer
Well, I think, I honestly, I'm not sure. I think Labour is, as everybody knows, quite a big tent. And so the Labour representatives that you're working with in one place are often quite different in outlook and politics from labour representatives in another part of the country,
Neil Maggs
I guess, like anything that depends who you're talking to and where, there is a there is a stereotype isn't there amongst the Green Party, and there is a stereotype that is a bit white and it is a bit middle class. And I do know that, and I've spoken to other people on this show like Cleo Lake and Tony Dyer, that very much feel central to trying to broaden that out.
Carla Denyer
So I do think the Green Party is getting more diverse, and that's really positive thing, but I agree that we still have an image as… we are too white and middle class.
Neil Maggs
Would you see yourself as white in middle class? Well, you're obviously white. Would you see yourself as middle class?
Carla Denyer
Yeah, I have to acknowledge I'm fairly middle class, yeah. But a lot of our councillors aren't, you know, we've now got several we've got three Black councillors. We've got quite a number of councillors from working class backgrounds. We've also got a great gender balance. We've got lots of LGBTIQA+ councillors. We've got, which is interesting, several councillors over 60, young councillors in their 20s, and even one in their teens.
BREAK
Neil Maggs
Are you in favour of the mayoral system, by the way? No? Okay, you campaigned vociferously for for Sandy Hore-Ruthven, the Green candidate, though, didn't you?
Carla Denyer
Yeah, because the mayoral election wasn't a referendum on the mayoral model. It was a question of who you want to be in that role for the next few years.
Neil Maggs
Obviously, the Tories and the Lib Dems were using it as a vehicle to get rid of the mayoral system. Weren't they?
Carla Denyer
They were, and I think that that was very misleading of the Lib Dems and the Tories to do that because the rules which we can't change, say that the the earliest that a referendum could happen on whether to get rid of the role is 2022, which means that the earliest you'd be able to get rid of the mayor would be like 2023
Neil Maggs
And you would still need a majority in the council chamber to…
Carla Denyer
Yeah, I thought standing on a back me to sack me ticket while, you know, it's a nice slogan, but it that role is going to exist and somebody is going to be need, need to be in it, doing a good job for the next three years. Wouldn't you rather somebody that actually has a manifesto and a plan for doing it, rather than someone that's just plans to sit on their hands?
Neil Maggs
But you also don't agree with the mayoral system, just in a nutshell, say why…
Carla Denyer
It's a concentration of power in the hands of one person, which is generally not a healthy way to do democracy. Ultimately, I would prefer to see a system where councillors have more say, because I think that better decisions are made when you have a more more more representative, more diverse group of people in the room making those decisions.
Neil Maggs
Doesn't that slow everything down a bit, though, and kind of get all a bit Oh, come on, get on with it?
Carla Denyer
The selling point is meant to be about its ability to get stuff done and to deliver. But despite having concentrated the power in the hands of one person for several years, I'm not sure it has really delivered that much for Bristol. We still don't have a clean air zone. We still don't have an arena. All those things were supposedly on the brink of happening several years ago and still haven't.
Neil Maggs
Why do you think Mayor Marvin Rees's ‘heart sinks’ when you step up to speak?
Carla Denyer
I think you'd have to ask him that…
Audio clip – former mayor Marvin Rees speaking to Carla Denyer in the council chamber
I just anticipated this. And when I when I see your name, I often see it's because it's the usual kind of,
you know, chess game trying to get a tweet or a blog out of the answer that feeds that line that, you know, Labour Party don't care about the planet, and I don't care about the planet, and all that type of stuff, which is the only thing which is so just demoralizing in the way you do politics.
Neil Maggs
For those that don't know that was a video that went kind of a bit viral on social media in the council chamber. How did that make you feel, honestly, at the time?
Carla Denyer
Well, it's not very nice to have someone say that about you. It's not the first time he’s reacted very negatively to me asking quite, quite an innocent, justified question. So for context, this, this happened in a meeting called members forum, which is the the specific purpose of members forum is that it's a place. It's an hour long meeting just before full council, roughly once a month, that is specifically designated for councillors to ask the mayor questions in public and to get written and or verbal answers. So that's the whole point of the meeting. That's why it exists. And so I submitted two questions to that meeting that were asking the mayor to sign up to support initiatives that would help to accelerate progress on tackling the climate emergency. One of them was getting Bristol to officially endorse the climate and ecological emergency bill, which is a bill that Caroline Lucas proposed, but which is supported cross party. It's a private members bill in Parliament. And although that's, you know, that's in Parliament, not not in local councils, lots of other local councils, including labour led councils, have backed it and and there is a campaign to get more councils to back it, because we think that it would help to show MPs, and especially government MPs, that there is broad based support, if lots of local authorities come out and support. And the other one was asking him to back an international initiative called the fossil fuel Non Proliferation Treaty, which, as the name suggests, the idea is to encourage an international treaty which has a plan for gradually reducing, in a sustainable and economically just way, the amount of fossil fuel extraction that is taking place across the world, using a similar model to the nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty,
Neil Maggs
But it was batted away and dismissed…
Carla Denyer
The thing is, they wouldn't have cost him, like what you know, these questions weren’t, please, will you spend 10s of millions on this thing…
Neil Maggs
I'm not, I mean, I don't know. I'm not convinced it's really anything to do with the actual question or the policy. I wonder, and tell me if I'm wrong. Have you had clashes before this point or not, or was this just or you got caught in the crossfire a little bit because I sensed frustration was coming from, you know, because I think when you're in that role, sometimes, I guess after a while, you'd start to get a little bit defensive and feel like, Oh God, what is it now? What have I got, you know, and that they felt like a sort of frustration, rather than it being aimed at you specifically, or am I wrong?
Carla Denyer
Well, he has certainly reacted in a, in a very negative way towards me and other Green councillors asking him questions previously. I mean, he made quite a, quite an uncalled for personal comment to one of my Green councillor colleagues in the meeting as well.
Neil Maggs
Yeah, but to you personally for him to go, my heart sinks every time.
Carla Denyer
Yes, you said exactly that before, but he has reacted, reacted negatively and avoided, avoided answering questions that I've asked a number of times before.
Neil Maggs
So avoided your questions a little bit. There was an official complaint made, not just by the Green Party, by the Conservatives and the Lib Dems, to the council, is that right, or to the scrutiny committee or something?
Carla Denyer
I'm not sure who it was directed to, whether it was to the mayor directly, or whether it was whether it was to a committee that's responsible for looking at behaviour of elected representatives this course,
Neil Maggs
Is he just being ganged up on a bit here?
Carla Denyer
I don't think so. Just this happened in a meeting that is specifically designed to be a space for councillors to ask the mayor questions. He seemed to really resent being held to account by elected representatives, bearing in mind, that's our job, he seemed to really dislike the fact that people were asking him questions in that meeting. And you know, I know politics can be toxic. I'm sure that being in the mayor's position can be a very uncomfortable place to be at times, but I think that as a bare minimum, politicians need to be willing to hear questions from other elected representatives and respond in a civil manner. At the very least,
Neil Maggs
Can I just play devil's advocate a minute? I think, could that also be, sometimes, how people communicate that, you know, he is a, sort of, is a working class lad, you know, you know, mixed race, that kind of communicates in it, in a, perhaps a direct, unpolished political way sometimes, and that gets misconstrued as, you know, as bullying, maybe, or as or as being rude.
Carla Denyer
Well, I'm not calling it bullying. I know that that cross party complaint went in, the leaders of the other parties just got on and did that. I didn't know that was happening until, until they'd already sent it in.
Neil Maggs
So you don't, you don't think he is a bully?
Carla Denyer
I think that he perhaps has a bit of a thin skin, and he sometimes responds in quite an emotional way to what are quite reasonable questions, not just from myself, but from other councillors, from other parties, and from members of the public in the public forum. I you know, there was a there was an incident a few years ago when an NHS worker made a statement concerned about air quality, and he seemed to turn on them and blame them, as if they were personally responsible for the emissions from NHS vehicles. I didn't get into politics to attack anyone. I got into politics to tackle the climate emergency. Partway through uni, I had an epiphany about really quite how bad climate change was, and I realised that I didn't even see it as a choice. I just saw it as humanity is facing this terrible crisis, I have to dedicate my whole life to doing whatever it can.
Neil Maggs
And that's admirable. And obviously that that is your kind of calling. But politics is dirty, though, isn't it? Carla, you know that then, particularly now, your head is above the parapet, and you'll be in the national frontline mode. You might get drawn and pulled into some of these little, you know, arguments, or personal kind of battles that, and you also need to be kind of ready to face that as well, and give that out potentially. I mean, it may not be your style to do that, perhaps, but kind of that you're in the gladiatorial arena now, aren't you?
Carla Denyer
Yeah, but one of mine and Adrian’s, my new co leader’s, you know, our priority is to, is to bring compassion back into politics, whether that's compassion for ourselves and each other, regardless of political party, or for our wider communities and even for the wider natural world. That's, that's why I went into politics, and that's, that's my priority.
Neil Maggs
I wanted to just ask you a bit around how the Green Party, well, twofold, really, how the Green Party wants to gain more seats, gain more kind of traction, and also accusations of potentially splitting the left vote. You know, Stroud is a good example of that, isn't it that that was kind of doing the doing the doing the rounds, a little bit is, how can you, you know, gain more seats without kind of enabling the Tories?
Carla Denyer
Well, the Green Party have been winning seats across the country from all parties across the political spectrum. In fact, several of the byelections that we've won in just in the last couple of weeks have been in formerly Conservative held seats, including in North Somerset, near Bristol, but also there's been some recent wins in Hampshire. That's our first Green councillor in Hampshire just a few days ago, and we've also won some in Norfolk recently. So it's, you know, it's not just from Labour, it is also from the Conservatives and and from Lib Dems, really across the spectrum. And I think the idea of, you know, blaming Greens for splitting the vote, that that is premised on a belief that all left wing people's votes belong to the Labour Party. And I think that a lot of voters are increasingly annoyed with that perception of them as being owned by the Labour Party. That's that's not the case, and a lot of voters are getting quite frustrated with decisions that labour politicians are making, whether it's nationally or locally, and are tired of voting tactically for a candidate that they see as the least worst option. And on us are seeing, especially in places like Bristol, Brighton, Norwich, Sheffield, Wales, that if they want a Green councillor, they want green policies, then they can vote Green and they'll get Green.
Neil Maggs
You must be relieved to see the back then of Corbyn’s Labour in some regard. It benefits the Greens, doesn't it?
Carla Denyer
Ultimately, I think we'll we'll see, but it certainly seems that Labour are returning to the the labour that existed when I was growing up under Blair, which is why I never even considered joining the Labour Party. Because the Labour Party that was on offer when I was politically coming of age was not a party that I really had any common ground with.
Neil Maggs
You must be in terms of Bristol West, quite confident. You know when, if and when the election does come, which what, three years, four years…
Carla Denyer
Or sooner? Who knows? Really, the Greens are regularly polling as a third party in the country now. We've had several polls in a row that have come out putting us on around nine or 10%
Neil Maggs
And you need to keep that momentum, don't you? You need lost a bit, didn't you? When it was gaining before? And I think there was a couple of sort of car crash interviews on national media with the previous Green leader, and people stopped taking you seriously again. This is a real moment now to capitalise on, just make this a sustained, real change,
Carla Denyer
Absolutely and Adrian and I, that's one of our priorities, to solidify that place as the third party in the country, and then to build on that and to carry on getting more seats elected at a local level, and also at a national level, getting more green MPs elected, including myself…
Neil Maggs
And this and the second part to that is increasingly becoming important. I think there was a video that Sandy Hore-Ruthven the the Green mayoral candidate put out during the campaign where he was quite critical of or frustrated, rather seeing Green Party politicians only talking about green issues and saying about wanting to broaden this out more to social issues that affect people as well. And it seemed to get quite a good traction amongst the Green Party that there, there is a kind of feeling now that, yes, those things are important. Yes, you're called the Green Party, which kind of sets a barrier up a little bit, but those other issues are also important that you need to start talking about and having clear set policies for as well. Is that something that's crucial for you and your leadership?
Carla Denyer
Absolutely, I, I think it's fundamental to the Green Party, so we've always been about looking after people as well as the environment. And I think the Green Party is the only party that sees environmental justice and social justice as two sides of the same coin. So it's not like the other parties, where they kind of think of climate policies as a bolt on that you can add on to their existing carbon intensive economic policy, transport policy and so on. And then they go, Oh, but we'll we'll have some bicycles and some trees, so it'll be okay, rather than seeing that all of these things are interlinked. So housing policy, for example, you know, standing up for tenants rights, making sure that housing, whether it's rented or owned, is of good quality, it's insulated, to make sure that people have warm, comfortable homes with low, affordable energy bills, that that's all tied up with climate justice, and that you can't have one without the other.
Neil Maggs
And it affects people from poorer communities, above and beyond. Anywhere else you need to rattle the cages of your some of your Clifton constituents, then, yeah?
Carla Denyer
Well, why? I mean I don't know if that's slightly in jest. I think there's a stereotype about what people, perhaps think Greens think. But has, a has a Clifton Green member said something contrary to what I've said, because, if so, I haven't heard them.
Neil Maggs
No, you just said that actually, sometimes it's the people in more affluent areas that are responsible for creating more carbon and emissions and stuff. So I'm saying, I'm saying that obviously your Clifton constituents, then you need to, you're in a position to be able to to influence that. Obviously, you know, being what a more affluent part of Bristol?
Carla Denyer
Yeah, I guess so. I mean our… as a political party, our focus is on system change. It's about changing the policies of a national and local level that help to tackle systemic issues and help people to make the right decisions. You know, our job isn't to turn up on people's doorsteps and say you need to live differently. You know, to an extent, people making individual changes in their life to reduce their carbon emissions is a really positive thing. And you know, I say that as somebody that has never owned a car and is vegan…
Neil Maggs
You’ve never owned a car? Nor me. Actually, it’s more about me failing my driving test, rather than a conscious decision, mine is just a mark of failure.
Carla Denyer
It's a conscious decision combined with being lucky that I've lived in places where I’ve…
Neil Maggs
Well, that is true, because if you add, you know, five kids, and you lived in Lawrence Weston and you had to drive into the centre. That's always the thing that, you know, I struggle with. How can you answer that question? If somebody needs to drive and they've got a big family, what do you do? It's easier, isn't it, for people to that live closer to the centre. You know what I mean?
Carla Denyer
Yeah. So with anything like that, the systemic approach is to make walking, cycling and public transport much easier, more affordable, in the case of public transport, more reliable, so that those other options are an attractive option that people are going to take seriously, and then that makes it much easier for them to switch.
Neil Maggs
Is Bristol, the worst place in the country for public transport?
Carla Denyer
It's certainly not in the top few, is it? I mean, I've not lived in all the other UK cities, so I couldn't honestly say, but the public transport just, you know, well, transport generally is so congested, and, yeah, it is a real challenge facing Bristol, and it's, it's really one that needs to be tackled, but it's difficult to tackle while we have a privatised public transport system that the council and the Metro Mayor can only exert quite limited control over.
Neil Maggs
Would you take that back into public hands?
Carla Denyer
Yes, absolutely. I've I was a loud and proud supporter of the ACORN campaign on taking busses back. I’m an ACORN member and I'm also a supporter of We Own It, which is a national charity about bringing public services back into public ownership.
Neil Maggs
Are you more left wing then? Are you more left wing than most of the Labour MPs and the Labour mayor? Would you say? I mean, in the context of public ownership argument?
Carla Denyer
Yeah, yes, a majority of the UK public are in favour of public ownership of public services.
Neil Maggs
Labour under Starmer has reneged on a lot of that stuff that was proposed previously from Corbyn over post office and energy.
Carla Denyer
And I think they're shooting themselves in the foot because they're they're going against the majority of the UK public…
Neil Maggs
And would that be something that a lot of Green Party members believe in, public ownership?
Carla Denyer
Oh, I mean, I would be very surprised if you managed to find me one that wasn't. I think some people, and I'm gonna slightly pick on you here, have perhaps some slightly out of kilter perceptions about what Green Party policy is. So So Green policy is strongly in favour of public ownership of public services. Obviously, the immediate term, we have the COP 26 climate conference coming up in a few weeks, which I'm hoping to be at.
Neil Maggs
That's a big opportunity. Carla, you're going to be there? Are you? Okay? Great. I mean, yeah, I think that's a real big opportunity for the media to give a real focus on that, for that to be front and centre in people's living rooms.
Carla Denyer
Yeah, we it's an opportunity for the Greens to put forward our bold but also straightforward and common sense policies, things like our Green New Deal, which will mean massive investment in lowering carbon emissions at the same time as creating many more sustainable, secure jobs for people and improving people's quality of life. And we want to use this opportunity of the coming climate conference to put those policies really centre stage in the political debate and help to move the Overton window in the direction of policies that will support people and planet.
Neil Maggs
Are you hoping – I just want to leave on this – are you hoping that there will be a bigger focus on the Green Party Conference in the mainstream media, because obviously there's been, you know, it's been all over the Labour one, and I presume the Conservatives is going to be as well this week.
Carla Denyer
Yeah, I hope that the media will be interested in Green Party conference. We're now polling at 9%, the third most popular party in the country, and they were, the media were certainly very interested in our leadership results. Last week, I'm in my first few hours as leader. I had interviews on BBC Radio Four News Channel, BBC Radio One, Radio Two, Channel 4, Financial Times, the Times
Neil Maggs
You are slumming it. Coming down to talk to me on this show!
Carla Denyer
Oh no, not slumming it. I love the Cable I'm a Cable member, don't you know?
Neil Maggs
I did know that, but I didn't know if I was gonna say in the interview! Thank you so much, Carla. Great to talk to you. Thanks, Carla, all the best. Thanks. Bye.
Many thanks to Carla Denyer for talking to us on this week's episode of Bristol unpacked. We will be back next week with a new guest and a brand new topic.
Thanks for listening to Bristol Unpacked. I'm Neil Maggs, and a big thanks to Rosa Eaton, our audio producer, Adam Cantwell Corn, our executive producer, and Blue Dot for our music.
And if you do want to become a member of the cable and join 2,600 Bristolian members all across the city chipping in every month, then please go to the website to find out more.