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From writing for the Wall Street Journal to advising MoMA’s permanent collection to launching one of the first game-based arts spaces in the world, Jamin Warren talks through contemporary issues in bringing games to the arts-world public
Alright. Great. Casey, good to see you again. Really appreciate you making time. Obviously, it's great to perhaps we talk from design design, so it's good to do it in a slightly more, I guess, formal capacity, I suppose.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Absolutely. Happy to be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Think maybe to start, could you tell me a bit about your your path to Tribeca? Like, what what kind of prepared you for that moment? What led you to that, you know, that to that position?
Speaker 1:I know you've been doing work work with Tribeca before working in in a games capacity. But, yeah, just walk me through your your kind of professional path towards towards Tribeca at games.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The path is ever winding, a little bit nomadic in in many ways, which I think has ultimately served me in working at Pinnacle Games. I started out in live theater, live theater production. Got my MFA in production stage management. Came to New York City with a hope and a dream to be a stage manager and quickly learned that the film festival path is actually a great parallel.
Speaker 2:So my early years were on the film festival side of things, growing my resume, taking as many jobs as I could in that arena. Ultimately culminating in a role that I held for five years, which was as managing director of the festival proper. At a certain point, I decided to step down just to learn new things and to see what else was out there. And immediately, one of the elements that the festival had incorporated during my tenure as managing director was games. And I was very interested and actually taking some time away from Tribeca to explore the video game industry as well as specifically the live event space within the video game industry.
Speaker 1:Right. Right.
Speaker 2:So it was somewhat I would I call it like my sabbatical. You know? I I stepped away full time from a Tribeca, but then eventually came back to both consult for them in the game space where I met you, as well as to be full time to start not even to start, but to really grow and build games in our Esteba Festival in '20 I wanna say 2019 going into 2020.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. It's very interesting looking at games through the lens of events. You know, games started as a social activity. It was entirely event event or live driven.
Speaker 1:Right? Because no one had games in the home and then, you know, certainly through the eighties and nineties, things started to come indoors and then the internet makes it social again. But, without the event side of things, what did you find kind of looking at games and events like in that moment just from and how did it compare to maybe your what you were seeing with events maybe more broadly in the arts?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, from my experience, games events in the or events in the game space, they're they're just more tightly controlled. You have very specific pillar games events, what would have been e threes, game awards, taxes that really are driven large in large portion by a booth setup.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:As well as driven from a specific a specific company like a like a BlizzCon or something like that. And in that space, you have real opportunity for social connection connection and fandom. But what was missing in that space in my mind was the the idea of highly curated sections and areas for those who may gravitate towards, well, I shall say the quieter games or different types of games. Right. Sort of lose sort of lose out in in a in a giant floor like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. There's certainly, like, competition for attention and that's true big or small. I mean, was like, you mean from Big E3 events or even like smaller ones like, you know, the independent arcades or that you see where you have like a lot of different games and you're jockeying for space and because at some level they are ultimately transactional. Right? Like, the idea is either they're transactional in the sense that and it makes sense that some of the fan community events grew out of comic book festivals.
Speaker 1:Right? Where you're there to build relationships, to do signings, to comic books. Like, there is something ultimately the idea is that you paid boot space and the idea is that you're supposed to get it back. And obviously can you tell me, like, how that differs in some obvious ways for people who maybe are less familiar with, like, how film festivals work and maybe what their relationship with creators with creators is.
Speaker 2:Well, I I it's actually interesting because it's probably where we're somewhat similar. I mean, I think what live events serve for game creators and the games themselves is that moment of connection with someone who has played the game to potentially sign on as a publisher or to get more financing or to make connections with other creators or other members of the industry. That really is what Live Events serve that probably do it better than sort of the sort of online social event that happen. And the function of the festival needs to serve as that platform for creators for the rest of their path. Right.
Speaker 2:Difference between Tribeca and some of the other live events is that we curate and bring games to the table at the earlier stages of the
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah.
Speaker 2:For their project with the idea that we want to spend lean in and try to support them to get to launch. And then post launch to get to awards or to get to press reviews.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. That's that's super interesting. Was that a did you feel like that was like a, you know, deliberate, like strategic choice, I guess, when you know, thinking back, you and I worked together on the very first Tribeca Games Festival. And I don't recall talking about that specific aspect of it.
Speaker 1:Or that specific aspect of it, because you're still trying to find you just wanna know if, like, people will show up at the end of at the end of the day. And but, yeah, I was curious about, like, how did you develop was that something that grew organically out of, like, Tribeca's, like, overall mission, or is that just, like, feedback that you heard from from creators or, yeah, talking about that, like, saying, hey. We wanna get involved earlier in the process. Where did that stem from?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, I think what I I wanted to try well, one, that strategy is really centered around official selections and the and the line for selections, which at the stage that you and I had worked together, which was in 2017, we were just building that path. So we hadn't yet set up the infrastructure to bring in selections. There are two sort of parallel strategies that Tribeca or I have, Tribeca has, is to, one, both celebrate the culture of games, to celebrate the legacy and the history of games, and the immense amount of creativity and artistic process that goes into creating games. And you can do that outside of selections or within selection, but mainly through special events.
Speaker 2:So in the early years, we were building the building blocks of Tribeca Games were featuring some of those luminaries, those creators, and bringing those special events to sort of establish the conversation. Yeah. Wants to celebrate games. And then the second part to that was bringing on the additional layer of new games and official selections. And the official selections are what we do for games is what we do for all the creators across the board.
Speaker 2:What I wanna do is just say there, we can do we can do this for filmmakers. We can do this for game creators and and all the other selection. And that process of selecting projects early before premiere or before review or launch is something that is inherent in the strength of the festival in general.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, think one thing, you know, maybe for people coming to games new or maybe these in a professional capacity is, you know, the way that games were validated for the credibility was this process. I I participated in one of these when I when wrote for the Wall Street Journal. You have these critics choice events basically before pre e three. E three is the, you know, the big trade show that would happen every year in June.
Speaker 1:They would fly you out. You would play a bunch of the game. Actually, a lot of them you even get to really play. You got some time with the games, but you almost never finished them because games tended to be very long. And then you voted.
Speaker 1:And then when e three happens, you get all these laurels, you know, the e three and critics choice or whatever that helps build credibility, notoriety for a particular title. And the goal was when the game was available for sale later in the year, in November and December, you kind of built that duds for me free. But it stemmed from critics. And it's interesting. Other cultural institutions were not really like a part of that process.
Speaker 1:Right? Where you didn't get the same you didn't get the same type of or certainly, like, in film, you get to go to a bunch of different film festivals that helps build buzz around a particular thing you're doing. But more really importantly, I think for audiences, they like seeing the laurels around. They like knowing that something has been validated in that in that way. Yeah.
Speaker 1:What role do you think that cultural institutions have for, like, kind of providing that same kind of stamp, you know, that premature that, you know, a game is worthy of, you know, a player's attention many, many months later?
Speaker 2:I think that the I think it's different for for each cultural institution and their mission and their audience base or their creator base. Tribeca very specifically looks at games through the lens of artistic and storytelling excellence. Yeah. That is our focus and we really highlight games within that space and acknowledging that there are many games out there that do not incorporate story, do not want to incorporate story. That is wonderful, but it's just not what we excel at bringing to the table to help.
Speaker 2:So a cultural institution and me at the onset should identify their lens and their strength and be very focused about that sort of section of games that they wanna nurture. And secondarily, I do think having a second second layer of validation outside the games industry Yeah. For who you are, I think it's just incredibly empowering to any games Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I it's so, you know, it's so smart, I think, in terms of, like, mean, one, I think it's smart in the sense that you've built all this credibility for Tribeca as being a home for storytelling already. It totally makes sense that you would wanna focus on that for games. The place where I see folks being across purposes is that they both recognize the commercial potential for games. Games are huge, but the games that are at the top of that pyramid may not necessarily share the same values that you have.
Speaker 1:I mean, in this case, like, you know, story driven games, like, you know, the the most the most most popular games. Some are story driven, but many are not. Sports games or they're extraction shooters or maybe they're games that maybe have cultural values that might be different from your institution. And so I think I suspect it can be really hard to say, okay, the thing that is the biggest thing on the planet at some level is not a good fit for us. But, you know, I think that's a little bit of his power.
Speaker 1:He he talked about maybe some of that tension how that tension maybe plays out. If it does at all in terms of, like, when you're selecting games that maybe are not, like, a good the right fit even if they are extremely could be extremely, extremely popular later down the road?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, I think well, one, the idea of storytelling, I intentionally want to say and keep it storytelling in the broadest sense. The best thing on games is that story is not only what happens within the game, it's what happens to the player as they're playing the game and what happens on the controller. So you can really find an anchor from storytelling to almost any game or any game property out there if it Sure. Is genuine or it feels so those the extraction shooters or, like, Call of Duty or Fortnite or Roblox, those do live within a storytelling sphere.
Speaker 2:Sure. It's really mainly, you know, I always wanna start with, well, what's the story we're gonna tell? Is it is it the story within the game or the player or what's happening in the news related to said game? Those are all great stories and and a place that has a home with Tribeca. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Think the tension is less honestly us saying, oh, this game is story. This game is not story. It's usually us internally, you know, when talking to the team saying, how can we serve this game best? How do we serve this game? Right.
Speaker 2:With the and and what we are the platform. But if the answer is no, we're not able to serve this game as well as x y z. Right. We have the conversation to determine some of the selections that we bring in.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's a thing. You can do anything, but you can't do everything. So sometimes, like, what you what you say no to. The story of the player, it's super interesting.
Speaker 1:This came up. I spoke to Patrick Moran, who's the the head of commercial at at the Barbican, And he's talked a lot about the player being sort of an unspoken or sort of unrecognized voice, like in presentations of games, like in an arts context. A lot of times the focus is on the creators themselves and the players sometimes like are not a part of that part of that part of that process. Can you tell me a bit about, like, maybe some of the community building aspects at Tribeca? Do you feel like you've crafted that distinction?
Speaker 1:I mean, again, film festivals film festivals in some ways are are built on audiences. Right? You need people to need people to be able to be there. But, yeah, tell me about that process of, like, building community community of players at at Tribeca.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, I think it's growing, and that is definitely a focus of ours. And I actually think that just being, you know, speaking to what I or calling back to what we discussed, the specificity of what we feature has been helpful because it allows for the player to identify with specific types of games that they may gravitate towards. And also to really give them an opportunity to speak about games as narratives, games as cultural medium. And those that ability to really have a lens through which they can look at dance has built sort of an affinity community of people that I think and hope look at Tribeca to put forth a group of selections that A, they can and are curated, and b, that they can then discuss and feel feel like those are games that are needy things to discuss.
Speaker 2:I think there's three communities that we
Speaker 1:look at.
Speaker 2:One, the career community. Think of all of our games selections as alum. So once you are selected, we want to try to help support you ongoing and your next game and your next game and your next game. We're always interested in cultivating with game creators. The game playing community and mainly much, you know, cultural institutions can actually validate the idea of play.
Speaker 2:I hope Tribeca does that as well. Just sort of simply by having this platform, it legitimizes the play as something that can be done alongside film, watching film, you know, like TV show, playing a game. It should be as casual as that. And so we're sort of seeing that in in some of the community building that we're we're we're doing here as well as the New York community. We're here.
Speaker 2:We're in New York. We have a Right. Yeah. Amazing community of creators and industry, and so being as active and involved with some of the the NYU game center and other cohort here.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. How much crossover have you found there is between, like what happens with Tribeca? There's like a question of like a place like South by Southwest. Right?
Speaker 1:Where on the one hand, like the people who come for music may not be the same people who go for interactive, may not be the same people that come for gaming, may not be the they have so many kind of like verticals in some ways. How have you found, like, crossover what is crossover like in terms of, like, Tribeca? The other things that happened at Tribeca on the film side and, like, what's happening on the on the game side?
Speaker 2:It's evolving. You know? I think from the early years to now, it it it's it's a totally different landscape and kind of encouraging because I, you know, I think we're even seeing in the industry as a whole, there's a diversification of wanting to to to diversify the portfolio. And so for games companies to look at nontraditional media or film and TV and vice versa. So filmmakers are attuned to that.
Speaker 2:Traditional filmmakers are attuned to that, and I think saying that game they not necessarily means make a game, but the game's techniques or applications or even having game creators in the know or in your wheelhouse is is sort of a vital thing for the, creating storytelling in the future.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, definitely see that in the context of filmmakers are interested in games. Tools are also consolidating in terms of having game engines being something that's used across industries. There are people who are making films with game engines and then moving towards interactive. So I definitely see there being increasing crossover between those worlds.
Speaker 1:One second. Let me close my door. We have, like, a New York equivalent sometimes. It's like lawnmowers, I think. That's the That's think that's the different one in LA.
Speaker 1:Sirens, those are everywhere. Lawnmowers or blowers, that's like the LA equivalent like
Speaker 2:That tracks. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Cool. Well, can we talk from, like, the institution standpoint in terms of, like, there's been a consolidation into a vertical, you know, games and immersive. They share a lot of the same DNA. They share some of same tools. I do think of games as being like a distinct, like a distinct for at least for at least for me.
Speaker 1:That's a big, like, structural decision. Maybe you can talk a little bit about, like, how games are kind of, like, situated inside of Tribeca as an organization And maybe some of the decisions that you've made organizationally to, you know, give Tribeca games, like, its best and most authentic voice when it's out in the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, a few questions to unpack there. I think the first thing I'll say is games and or immersive or any non traditional media cannot exist in a company like this unless you have someone at the top or someone at the top as Jane Roosevelt who trade and who advocates for it every day.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That
Speaker 2:is what makes structural change. It allows for the these babies to grow within a large organization. Yeah. And then secondarily, it takes appointing someone who is passionate and knowledgeable about this piece to run it and leave the home. Any company, I think, there are many who feel the pain out there who has who's coming from a non games industry, non endemic structure is usually one person or one person's part time job who Right.
Speaker 2:Sort of has this. And so what ends up happening is you don't have if if I don't come into work that day, no one's thinking about games. Right? So there's a Right. Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's a real need to, like, permeate from the inside outward as well as in that that is is in its own effort, and then it can grow. Games and immersive, I think, way the impetus was really coming from the lens of where we are. These are very nontraditional forms and nonlinear forms of storytelling that are being explored. And there's also spatial storytelling involved. And the foundation of both games and immersive are somewhat similar in that there's much, there's a lot of real time technology the technology driving both of the storytelling in both sections or both areas.
Speaker 2:I think that's where the similarities stop though.
Speaker 1:And I
Speaker 2:learned that actually sort of splitting my, you know, the two hats, one in games and one in immersive in that the audiences and sometimes and even the mechanism of the industries are very separate or at least separate Right. Not necessarily separate, but separate oriented at this stage in time. And there's, like, a very wide field to spread it to spread across. Yeah. So I think that, you know, from an institutional stand standpoint, when a company is thinking, oh, we we wanna do games and immersive, you should, I think, really dive in deep as to what exactly you you would wanna do in games or what exactly you would want to do in immersive.
Speaker 2:I'd start by defining what immersive is to you, so then it can be right there.
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah. That's such a good point. I mean, it's such a good point about the everything floats downhill from from from the top. I see that a lot, both from my previous commercial work that, like, if you don't have executive leadership.
Speaker 1:You often I often find it's like a like a barbell, you know, where it's like you may have a senior executive or CEO syncing missionally for an organization and they're like, I see games. Games should be a big part of our future. And then, down the spectrum for people with low power, they see games because they like them. There's a generational gap. And then, there's kinda this in between, this translation issue where you may have an executive mandate to be innovative or whatever.
Speaker 1:And then when it comes to games, that sometimes can be like the first thing on the chopping block because there's not maybe support from, you know, from the from the next the next layer down. Such It's a good point about having somebody who's like, hey, this is really important and we need to make sure that we continue to have a presence here and reminding an organization of that day in and day out as opposed to just sort of doing it by by fiat. One question I have for you, you know, one thing I I've been seeing is, you know, the curating, commissioning games is one piece of, like, what an organization can do in games. There are other things that can be done. Fundraising, obviously, in advancement or looking for corporate partnerships.
Speaker 1:Marketing, like doing you know, this could be activations inside of gaming social platforms like Roblox or it could be having a Discord server presence on Twitch. I, you know, I didn't ask you about this. I I was curious about, like, whether you've seen, like, other ways that Tribeca is engaging in, like, games outside of yeah. Outside of, like, the the event side of things. I'm just curious.
Speaker 1:There's not, like, a there's not, like, a right answer there. I'm just curious because, you know, there are other ways that you can do things in games like check that box. You've chosen the most like, I think the most difficult one, is like being a venue and hosting and seeing through the creation of games. I think that's extremely, extremely hard to do. But, yeah, I think you seen other places maybe where games have popped up at Tribeca, not just, like, during the festival during the festival itself?
Speaker 2:I mean, basically, what I think you're asking me is what is my dream list of things that I could do with Tribeca games? And I'll Yeah.
Speaker 1:A 100. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Possibility. Think one of the areas that I, you know, have always this may be a a non answer to your question, but it's all have always wanted to do with games is actually have it drive festival interactivity.
Speaker 1:So using Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:Games or the game theory or game application or game technology to be how audiences interact at large. Right. And doesn't need to be really called out in any specific way or need to be under the umbrella of games. But the idea that we have this section and these amazing creators and we're noodling on these things and how that can actually inform what live events or festivals can be. To me, it's something that I would would love to do, and we we continue to try to look for opportunities there.
Speaker 2:Yeah. There's always a digital extension of what we do at the live event. I think curation continues to be, especially with the the number of games that are created this year and ongoing, curation tends to be something that is becoming increasingly more important. And you could do that in a digital space as well as dialogue. How we talk about games and how we write about them is of critical importance to, I think, changing people's minds about what games are and how seriously they could take them.
Speaker 2:So if there were digital extensions through either podcasts or talk talking about games, that is another area as well. Yeah. And then the third one is more nuts and bolts. It's really how can we, Tribeca, serve the industry in bridging the gap between industry. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because if we're if we're moving towards multimedia creation mindset where transmedia projects are really becoming seriously explored between games and film and TV and audio, Tribeca is very primed to assist that within the industries and to see how we can service the learning across the field. Those are the three areas and the three things that I think we we can do, we want to do, and we're making strides to do. And really having games as at the live event is is just is the spy
Speaker 1:for
Speaker 2:all
Speaker 1:of Yeah. That's such a wonderful, wonderful way to think about it. You know, that interpretive content piece, how people understand the thing that's actually being exhibited, I think is often like a real missed opportunity. And it can be like a quirk of someone who's just getting started. It can sometimes be for an organization that's just getting started.
Speaker 1:Sometimes that can be a lower lift because you already have a curatorial frame. Like, you you know, it's hard to change curators' minds if they're not interested in games. If they're not interested in games, then there's not a lot you can do to change that if the curatorial or the creative arm of your organization is kind of, like, defined. But there are other ways that you can still engage with games that does not necessarily have to ideally, you do all of them. But, like, yeah, if you're if that is a door that is foreclosed to you for any number of reasons, yeah, there are other ways that you can be thinking in a game like capacity, which is super exciting.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Yeah. One or two more questions for you. You know, I'm curious how your definition of success for showing at Tribeca has changed, like, over over time. What does the win look like for the program now?
Speaker 1:Like, what does a successful event both look like for you and also for, like, your audience and also for our creators?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, I think in the early years, the phase one of Tribeca Games, we're going into our sixth year. So this is really year one, the year four, five recently. Success was qualitative to the degree that it was about getting having Tribeca James be a recognized recognized and established brand or known enough for us to begin to grow it. So those are really establishing years and to be able to go to the games events and to have that recognition now of, oh, you're with Tribeca Games.
Speaker 2:Oh, we'd love to speak to you. Oh, we have your submissions already in our plans. We want to submit that build up to really the cultivating with the creators was the first order of business. And to get to that stage now, which we are always still growing there, but have done so well being able to be somewhat known in the industry as a place to feature your game. So that was a measure of success.
Speaker 2:I'll just put the elephant in the room on the table here, I'll speak to it. A measure of success within a company like this usually is always somewhat financial.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But
Speaker 2:you know, we are very lucky to be in a house that celebrates artistic endeavors like this, but we also do have to really acknowledge that the business and that part of it is still growing. So the measures success for future longevity, stability, like any other, I think, games company or everyone in the industry is looking at is to really be able to bring in partners, strategic partners, financial partners, so that we can grow this for decades to come.
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No.
Speaker 1:That's that's great. I mean, it's it's always very interesting doing things in culture in a, you know, in a private for, you know, private for profit capacity. You know, it I mean, obviously, share similarities. Like, if it's not something that is financially on the register, even if you're working in a non profit capacity, still need to be thinking along those lines. Certainly in The United States, you know, where our funding can be, like, very tough to come by.
Speaker 1:So trying to figure out ways for, like, earned income opportunities for, you know, an organization is still is still gonna be, like, super super important regardless of whether or not regardless of your, you know, if you're a five zero one c three or not. So, still
Speaker 2:Exactly. Cool.
Speaker 1:Well, I think the last thing is, you know, is there a conversation that you want Tribeca Games to be having that, like, no one else is having? Like, is it something a question that you're hoping that you force in the upcoming year as you're as you're planning for Tribeca that that no one is is asking the question
Speaker 2:of? I don't know. No one's asking the question, but I do feel like there's a few things that always burning on my mind that I think that Tribeca has just the DNA and the space to try to tackle. It's always where our games within the cultural conversation. You know, we do look at the industry.
Speaker 2:We see a lot of the moving and shaping that's happening. Not even just within the games industry, but our bird's eye view is from a broader media perspective. Film, TV, games, audio. There's a lot of parallel activity happening across the board. How close culture is coming to tech, how many of the journalistic sites across culture are being cut, and that dialogue of how we talk about these things is very important.
Speaker 2:I think where games sit within the cultural space is a perennial conversation that you have had, that you'd like to continue to have that is a few, you know, I think there are a few people within the industry, you know, positioned to be able to have that that discussion with impact. I would humble myself to say I hope we're one of them, not even to say we're I hope we are because it really is from a, you know, it's a personal mission of mine to really change how people see games within within culture.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Cool. Thank you so much, Casey. I appreciate it as always. You're welcome.
Speaker 1:Alright. Let me then stop here.