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On this week's episode of the Choose Your Struggle podcast Jay chats with a leading voice on medical cannabis Dr. Peter Grinspoon!
Discussing issues of Mental Health, Substance Misuse and Recovery, and Drug Use & Policy with host Jay Shifman, Speaker, Storyteller, and Advocate.
Each week Jay chats with interesting guests as they seek to destroy stigma and advocate for honest, educational conversations that motivate positive change.
You can learn more at https://jay.campsite.bio/.
Choose Your Struggle has been streamed in over thirty-five countries and is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever else you get your podcasts.
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*** Transcript is not edited for clarity.
You are listening to the, choose your struggle podcast, a member of the shameless podcast network.
Welcome to the choose your struggle podcast. I'm your host, Jay Schiffman, on this show, I interview people with lived and learned experiences on the subject of mental health, substance misuse, and recovery and drug use and policy. But occasionally we talk about other topics as well. And this week show I chat with cannabis activist, Dr.
Peter Grinspoon, but first kid mental let's go.
No, it's going to go.
hello and welcome to the choose your struggle podcast. I'm your host, Jay Schiffman. It is great to be back with you all on a regularly scheduled podcast. It feels like a month since we've done this. It is almost that length, um, before we get into last week, last week show, and then obviously what's coming down the line this week.
We have to talk about made it, uh, it is out. It's been out for two weeks now, as you hear this, um, just a giant, thank you to everyone. Who's listened. Everyone who shared everyone who has reached out more on that in a minute as I've been recording this, uh, it is still in the top 200, a little so kind of quickly on that.
Um, you know, this show choose your. It took an entire season for it to break into any sort of topless. And it's been regularly, you know, in and out of those lists since for the last two years made it, it took 48 hours. Uh, it shot to the top 200 in the, um, society and culture category, which is its main main category.
Uh, that's actually, this show is secondary category, which is more information than you need. Um, and it peaked at 1 25 that was on Monday the Monday after the show came out. So Justin over just over two days, amazing. Since then it has not left the top 200 it's it's regularly between, uh, sort of one 50 to 200.
Uh, last time I checked it was one 60. So, uh, that's amazing. It, it, it, it, it, you know, it's nice being in that kind of stuff, but the, the, the biggest part of why that's amazing, it's it, you know, it, it says people are listening and it says that people are enjoying it because, uh, Sarah reached out, I posted that on Instagram last week and Sarah reached out and was like, that's so cool.
But like, I mean, how many shows are really in that category? And I was like, tens of thousands. And she was like, what? I was like, yeah. You know, this is, it's not the most popular category. It's not up there with, you know, true crime or any of that kind of stuff. Um, um, you know, self-help, those are the kind of the big ones.
Society and culture is for a lot of shows. They're secondary for, for some it's their first and it is a very popular category. So thank you to all of you who continue to listen. Um, really means a lot, those of you who, who have reached out, it means so much, um, that the, the flood of text of emails. Thank you.
I want to quickly say again, um, you know, there is another way for some of you to reach out if you want, uh, to leave an audio message with my partners, my friends, over at pod inbox. Um, very cool feature. Uh, some, some places have it as a built in for their podcast player. Mine, mine doesn't. Um, so I've partnered with pod inbox.
If you go to pod in box P O D I N B O x.com/choose your struggle just CYS. That's all it is. Pod and box.com/c Y. You can record an audio message that can be played on this show, or just for me to hear. Uh, and I decided to, to, to give you an incentive, anyone who shares a message that ends up on the show, uh, I will send you a swag pack of choose your struggle stuff.
So, um, you know, listen for your name, I'll tell you to reach out that kind of stuff and, and send me a message and I'll send you something. So we'd love to hear from you that way, but everybody else, thank you. Really thank you for, for all the kind messages. Um, the, especially the people who told me that the end of episode 10 made them cry.
You know, that is, uh, yes, I'm with you. That, that, that is appreciated. All right. Last week show, um, first off, real quick and Apollo. The guest on, uh, that, that you heard her, her name was Renee Bracey Sherman. Uh, I had it right in the, in the title of the show. I had it right in the notes on the episode, actually, this is what's funny is, uh, Kamiyah community.
Uh, God, I'm going to get her name, right. Eventually our promise, um, who was the host of the abortion with love was like, I love this. Thank you so much for, for connecting our two episodes. By the way you called Renee Bracey Sherman, Renee brown, German. Um, I was my wife heard it too. And she's like, is it possible that you connected Renee Bracey Sherman with Bernay brown?
And I was like, sure, I guess that could be it. Um, I'm Carrie Williams, the host, uh, you know, stepping into truth, uh, thought it was hilarious. And she said, you know, I'm gonna say that you just, um, you know, conflated her name with our new Supreme court justice. So that was, that was funny. I hope you enjoyed that.
I really do. Um, I obviously this show this week was supposed to be last week. Um, but I just felt that that was the right thing to do last week was to put out, um, other people's voices talking about abortion, the best message I got. I got a lot of great ones. Thank you to everybody again, pod and box, but, but thank you.
The best message I got was. Uh, a young woman who, whose name I'm not going to say because I didn't ask her permission. Um, she was the woman who wrote the letter, uh, that you all heard from abortion with love. And, um, she reached out and said, this was so meaningful to me. I didn't think my, my words would, would really go anywhere beyond this show that the, you know, the abortion with love and to hear it on yours just meant so much.
Thank you. Thank you. Um, and that meant a lot to me, you know, that was the point. That was the point of this was to, to amplify those voices. So, um, I really hope you enjoyed that if you haven't listened yet, go back and check that out. Um, you know, it is, it is, uh, something, I think both of those episodes, the conversation between, um, Karrie Williams or Nate Bracey Sherman, uh, and also the, the episode of abortion with love.
These are the things we need to hear. So check. All right now today's episode is with a guy who I am a giant fan of on mostly on LinkedIn. That's where I found him. He is one of the leaders in talking about, uh, sort of revisiting the way that we talk about cannabis in the. Popular culture in society in the workplace.
Uh, he is Dr. Peter Grinspoon. Um, Peter is a really interesting guy, really interesting guy with, with a great story that you'll hear on this. We don't obviously have time to touch on at all, but, but really interesting story. Um, he is a primary care physician and a cannabis specialist at Massachusetts general hospital.
Uh, but he also is an instructor at the Harvard medical school and a certified health and wellness coach. He is a contributing editor to the Harvard health publication. And as a TEDx speaker, uh, is an author of a memoir called free refills at doctors confronts his addiction. Uh, yes. He also struggled with addiction, not just being a cannabis activist.
He is also a guy in recovery. Um, really, really fascinating. Guy with a cool story and is doing really important work, uh, both helping to end the stigma on addiction and change the way we talk about drug use and drug users, but also specifically challenging a lot of boneheaded thinking around cannabis.
Uh, I'm very appreciative that Peter took the time. It was great to finally meet him. Uh, and I hope you enjoy this episode one minor note, um, thanks to made it and all the work I did on that and, and shout out to Quinn, um, who, who, you know, y'all heard me shout out during made it, but it is, it is a great sound editor here in Philly.
I am experimenting with new ways to edit sound. I don't love how this one came out. Peter sounds great. I don't sound the best, but you know, uh, we're learning. So, uh, without further ado, enjoy this conversation with the incredible, the knowledgeable, the very interesting Dr. Peter Green. Two lives stories of transformation.
I had just been drowning in my own pain and I began to think what if I could do something with that pain? What if I could somehow transform this into something else? Could I do something positive with this? Could I make a difference who we're all given two lives. The second begins the moment we realize we have only one listen to two lives.
Wherever you get your podcasts or go to two lives.org. That's the number two lives.
Support us on Patriot. Check us out at patrion.com/choose your struggle or at the link in your show notes. All right, it's welcome back to choose your struggle. Thank you so much for being here. I am with a guy here today who I have been admiring his work from, from a far, for a couple of years. Now. He is one of the leaders in the industry when it comes to, oh, man.
How, how would I sort of, um, uh, educated information when it comes to drug use specifically cannabis? Um, he's I learned about him on LinkedIn, where he is very active and, and where he is one of the leaders in that community. He is the one and only Peter Greensman. Peter, thank you so much for being here.
Thanks for having me was my intro, you know, accurate. Would you consider yourself a sort of a leading voice when it comes to, to CA especially cannabis? Uh, sure. I mean, I've been involved in the issue my whole life, uh, which is longer than most people can say practically before birth. I've been immersed in this issue.
So, uh, you'll learn a lot over 55 years. And, and as I love to say to start this question off, you know, you don't wake up and decide, you know what, I'm going to dedicate my life to drugs. So I know you I've read your bio in a lot about you and I, it's a very fascinating story. Help us understand how you got into this industry.
Well, the way I got into the cannabis industry is sort of two-fold one, my brother, Danny. Um, when I was just a kid, um, he was fighting an unsuccessful battle against leukemia and my parents procured medical cannabis for him illegally, right at the beginning in the early 1970s of Nixon's war on drugs. Um, they, you know, they cared more.
Their son then about the wall. And it really helped him a ton. And like, um, it helped them didn't cure his cancer and he didn't make it, but it helped them hold down food. It helped them be able to get up and play with his little twin brothers, which we really appreciated. And it helped them sort of, um, So to die with, with comfort and dignity.
So the whole time I was in medical school, and since then, I was sort of immune to the sort of anti cannabis bias and sort of nonsense. If they have with which they teach you in medical school, they teach you anything at all. About cannabis. They certainly don't teach, um, the endocannabinoid system very much.
So that was number one. And number two is that my dad was a very famous cannabis activist, Lester Grinspoon. Um, and he, uh, was just involved very heavily involved, not in this issue, but in all drug related issues. Um, he wrote a book called marijuana reconsidered and Nike 71 that was on the front page of the New York times book review.
And he really got, like, gave a lot of intellectual leadership to the legalization movement. So consequently growing up in my living room, there were always tons of people discussing cannabis, discussing legalization, using cannabis, you know, in school, we'd get this message that it makes you a motivational and then I'd come home and there'd be like the most motivated people like on the planet, in my living room, having these absolutely.
Astoundingly spectacular sort of cannabis infused discussions. And it just gave me a very different perspective on all of this. And now I've been a primary care doctor for about 25 years. And cannabis really makes not only the lives of my patients easier, but it makes my life easier. It gives me a, you know, relatively non-toxic alternative to treat some of the most difficult conditions, which are common conditions like insomnia and chronic pain.
So I've just been interested in this issue. The final thing is I am in recovery from opiate addiction, uh, which is something that a lot of doctors get in trouble with. And, um, I wrote a book about what it's like to be a doctor who got addicted, recovered, and cannabis helped me with a lot of the withdrawal symptoms when I was getting off, um, the opiates.
So I've been very interested, not just in cannabis, but also in psychedelics and in addiction and in physician health. A fascinating story. Thank you for sharing. A lot of that with us, let's start with the sort of the. First point that you made about your brother again, I'm so sorry that your family had to go through that.
Uh, w w what was that experience like? Actually, this kind of goes into the number two as well. You know, you're going to school every day, as all of us did, and we're, we're getting, you know, things like dare and just say, no being told that cannabis is the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And yet you're going home and you're seeing it help your brother.
And not only that, as you, as you perfectly mentioned, which I love, you know, you had some fascinating individuals, uh, coming over and, and you were seeing that this was not the case was how, as a young person, do you try to wrap your head around. Well, it didn't do wonders for my respect for authority. Let's put it that way.
Um, and you know, it was like a lot of, um, cognitive dissonance because, you know, when you get older, you realize that it's a little bit arbitrary with the heat you in school, but when you're younger, you know, like this is just reality with the teach you in school. And so there was that reality and then there was the reality at home, and then I sort of contradictory.
So it was confusing and at times a little bit stressful, but I sort of knew that home was a more accurate message than school. Uh, you know, these people again at homework, so articulate and motivated, and the policemen that came in to talk to us from there looked like they barely made it from Dunkin donuts.
You know, they didn't look particularly motivated. So it was sort of like a show don't tell thing, uh, I sort of got the, uh, the, the hint about what the sort of more realistic message was. Yeah, I, um, you know, so as an adult, obviously I've dealt with that as well. The messages I got about drugs and then, you know, going through my own struggle.
And now as an adult, knowing where a lot of those came from and you're right, we get that in a lot of different ways. And I'm thinking even us history where we're taught quite, quite frankly, propaganda, and then you actually learn the real history and you're like, what the hell did your parents help?
Young Peter sort of tried to square that circle a little bit. Well, it's hard to say, uh, not really. They sort of, I think they sort of figured that we'd figure it out ourselves. I would say my older brothers helped me a lot, uh, because you know, when you're a kid and then an older kid and then a preteen and then a teen.
Your older brothers? Um, I should say older brother, cause my brother Danny passed away. My brother David was a really good source of information. So my parents were very, um, nurturing and caring parents who did a great job of like inspiring me intellectually and giving me a work ethic. But I think I would say my, my brothers and my twin brother, uh, were the ones who helped me figure out, um, kind of navigate my way through these contradictory messages.
So you, you go to medical school and you already, it would sound like, know more about cannabis than some of the people teaching you these things. What was that experience like? Was this something that was constantly on your mind or did you just kind of put that aside for a couple? Yeah. Well, a little bit of both.
Um, you know, medical school is very intense and you mostly learning about like the kidney or the liver. So there's so much studying and learning that you're not really, uh, at least I wasn't really super focused on sort of activism for those years of my life. Um, I did spend five years between college and medical school working for the international environmental group Greenpeace.
So I did, I've done a ton of activism in my life, but when I was in medical school, I was really there to learn. But that said, whenever the curriculum meandered anywhere near cannabis or people started talking about, uh, people who use drugs or specifically cannabis, but any, any drug users in a derogatory way, it would really push my buttons and raise flags and.
You know, interject myself into those conversations and try to at least voice what at that time was sort of a minority opinion that like, you know, this isn't the full picture. They're like benefits of cannabis. It's not just this like evil intoxicating substance that people use a much more complicated.
So I did my best. Um, as I got older and further into my medical career, um, I developed more of a voice. So, you know, this is, it's always a hard transition, but, uh, how, when did you start to realize that you were developing an issue with. Uh, you said opioids I'm guessing pills or was it heroin? No, no, it was pills.
I mean, ironically is a doctor had such access to pills that, that prevented me from switching over to heroin. A lot of people will get addicted to prescription painkillers and then it's too expensive or they can't access it. And then you could go into any city and buy a bag of heroin, really cheap, which is actually fentanyl.
And that's how a lot of people get in trouble. Um, but I was, um, at a very unhappy time in my life and I was working all the time. Like in residency, you work like a hundred hours a week. And I mean, these 36 hour shifts were brutal and you know, I just didn't do a great job of like taking care of myself. I realized.
I tried Vicodin with a friend, you know, it was interesting. She didn't get particularly addicted, but once I took it, I became so euphoric. And I found out that like I learned immediately that it could make all my problems go away. I mean, it didn't really go away. They were getting vastly compounded because then I developed an addiction, but it felt like they were going away or at least giving me some relief that I needed.
Um, but I was in denial. Denial was a big, um, component of addictions, as they say, denial is not only a river in Egypt. Um, and a lot of people are really, really like, especially doctors, like, you know, cause you could hide behind your professional identity and I was still doing a good job as a doctor. So I would say that when the state police and the DEA visited my office in 2005 uninvited, uh, that was when I a light bulb went off in my head, even though it had been going on for 10 years, like this is just.
That is an experience that I can say with absolute certainty that nobody listening to the show will be familiar with. What, just help us understand what that moment was like when all of a sudden this thing that you thought you were keeping sort of hidden and under wraps got blown up into such a way that, like you said, when, when an agent is showing up you're you're, you're, you're kind of screwed at that.
Yeah. Well, first of all, you know, I discussed this a lot in my memoir. I wrote a memoir about, about exactly this about physicians and addiction. It's called free refills because that's like the, we have free refills as physicians. And it, the combination of the stress doctors are under so much stress.
These days. A lot of them are just quitting and dropping out the combination of the stress and the access makes us really susceptible to addiction. And then the problem is once we get addicted, the medical boards and the medical societies are very punitive. It's, you know, they should understand that, like we have the same problems as doctors and everybody else does.
We get depressed, we get divorced. We have parents who are sick, you know, kids that get sick, but also we have everybody else's problems. Cause we're trying to take care of everybody. When we get depression or anxiety or bipolar or addiction, we should have helped nurturing and support. But the climate is very punitive, uh, which is completely nuts.
So, you know, this makes it really scary to even think that you might have an addiction, uh, let alone, publicly ask for help. But when they came in as a consequence, I was terrified. I was like, wow, am I going to prison? It's just all over. Am I never going to see my kids again? But then, um, at the same time there was a sort of relief of like, I don't have to keep hiding and keep applying and keep sneaking around.
So the complicated mixture feelings, most of them were like, uh, terror and despair, but there were also feelings of like a little bit of gratitude. So you, you, you get busted, take us through the next steps. W uh, did you, I I'm guessing you, you got to see your kids again, you know, what, what, what happened after that?
The arrest? Well, it was sort of a escalating, a sequence of negative consequences that got more and more painful. The next day I went and got booked and fingerprinted. Um, I had to go to the physician health services, um, which drug tested me for the next five years. I calculated. 20 gallons of urine because there was one to three times a year for the next a week, one to three times a week for the next five years.
Um, I had a meet with my, with an attorney, which was really expensive, like literally like tens of thousands of dollars, which I didn't necessarily have on legal fees. And I, um, got shipped by the medical board being a Jewish atheist in the Northeast to this very Christian rehab center in the south, which didn't make any sense.
And they ended each meeting with like resetting the Lord's prayer, which is, there's nothing wrong with the Lord's prayer, but it's a little bit disorienting if you're like ripped out of the. Um, home environment sent away from your kids for 90 days. And, um, you know, trying to recover from addiction, I did rehab was like the least scientific thing I've ever experienced, uh, bar none.
And I really don't think rehab is a very good way to treat people for anything, let alone addiction. But anyway, so I was, um, fingerprinted, booked, charged. The lawyer had to go to court. I was put on probation, meaning I had to get. Every week to the basement of the courthouse and convince my probation officer that I wasn't on drugs, um, and then going to rehab for 90 days.
And then, um, I was monitored for five years and I actually lost my medical license for three years, which was on the one hand excruciating. But on the other hand, it was really good for me because a very humbling, and there's so much more to recovery than just not taking drugs. Recovery is about like connecting with people and being mindful and being present and like sort of taking care of yourself.
And listening to people and it honestly like the best doctors there are, I think are the doctors who are in recovery because they're not these like narcissists, they're like nice connected people. So I actually think that I learned a lot, um, going through recovery, but yes, there were a lot of like excruciating consequences, um, from having the state police, the DEA raid your medical office.
And I would not particularly recommend it as a, uh, activity that anybody should try at home. Man. What a, what a just unbelievable story. And you make one point that I do want to very quickly co-sign is that anyone who says that we have religious freedom in this country should really hope they're never sent to rehab.
Uh, but, um, so you, you, you do get into recovery. It sounds like more through your own work than the actual, uh, rehab quote unquote, but what, what was that experience like? Well, first of all, if I could just give a mini Ted talk, they didn't, and they still don't offer Suboxone or methadone to doctors, uh, which puts our lives extremely at extremely high risk, um, for overdose.
And so I was never offered Suboxone or methadone by anybody or anything officially. I did get some Suboxone from a physician colleague, but it wasn't long-term treatment. So it didn't really work. He got me off, but I got back on, but you know, it's really unethical. They, the medical boards and the physician health program.
Um, they contend that Suboxone, for example, would be impairing to physicians if they were on it. Even though I take care of tons of people with addiction, you should see these people you'd have no idea that they were on Suboxone. They're all successful with their families. I mean, not all, but the ones that are doing well are successful with their families and successful at work.
And at the same time, doctors are allowed to use alcohol, Gabapentin, Valium, Ambien, muscle relaxants. They're allowed to drink as much alcohol as they want. So it's just because it's addiction and it's just stigma. There's no scientific reason why doctors can't be on Suboxone or methadone for that matter.
But Suboxone is a lot more practical because if you're a doctor, you can go to a methadone clinic all the time. But, um, so. Uh, really I've done some advocacy on, on this issue because like, if we're going to take this occupational hazard and we have a higher rate of addiction than anybody else, why on earth?
Can't we get physicians, nurses to physician assistants. Um, why can't we get the dentists? Why can't we get the same treatment that everybody else gets that has been proven to reduce overdose and death. So, but anyways, getting to answer your question, um, getting it to recovery was excrutiatingly paying.
Especially early recovery. You have nothing to look forward to you. Like, you know, I was facing a divorce, which was sort of my decision because I came back without the drugs and it was, the marriage was like intolerable without the drugs. And now I'm with someone like that, I'm really, really, really compatible with like much happier.
And, um, but you know, as facing a divorce, you're broke, you're not working. You can't work. You've lost your professional esteem. You've lost a lot of your close relationships because as you get more and more addicted, your emotional connection becomes with the drug, not with like people around you. So early recovery is such a hard time.
And I think there needs to be more empathy to people who are going through this and more support. I think that's why a lot of them relapse. They're like, what do I have to like, wake up and get out of bed for, um, you know, now. 15 years and to recovery, it's like automatic. It's like nothing, but, uh, you know, that changes over the years, but yeah, it was pretty difficult at first.
I love that so much. Uh, I coast on that from my own experience so much, you know, I say this all the time, but we have this stupid idea that the minute you walk out of the recovery or place, or you get you off the pills, we should put up the banner that says success are, you know, like what does the, the, the, the, the Bush, uh, mission accomplished, right?
That is so disingenuous. It took me five years into recovery before I felt healthy. It took me five years before I felt that I was back on stable ground. And if we don't tell that if we don't make peop make it clear to people that this is going to be hard for years, they think it's them. You know what they think I'm the failure.
No, it isn't you. So thank you for so much for that, that penal code into that. I mean, we see doing, it's been studied that like going from quote unquote, addicted to quote unquote, recovered that natural history is to have like three to eight relapses or even a lapses where you just fail a drug test. Um, but get back on track.
But the problem is if you do that, the medical. Takes another year off your license or the parole officer puts you back in prison. So our systems are very punitive and they're not at all, uh, in line with the natural history of the disease, which is you sort of get there, but you don't on a dime turn from addicted to recovered.
So it's just a mismatch between. Uh, how punitive these consequences are and the natural history of someone who's actually trying to get into recovery or the leading, uh, our most well-known recovery advocacy group, uh, says you have to start recounting your time, right? That is just, uh, I've got friends who are in AA.
And I, I, I tell them if there's anything that upsets me the most, it's that who cares about your, why? Why would that be your reset? That is just so hard. Well, especially if you have a bad day and you take a couple pills, but you've been four years in recovery, and then you immediately say that was stupid and flushed the rest of the pills.
That's not like you're not back at day zero. You've grown and changed a lot in the four years. And it, and it takes this idea that any drug use other than the approved ones in, in, in coffee and cigarettes is negative. And so, yeah, if you are, and obviously we'll get to your work here in a second, but you know, if you're using medical cannabis, well, you must have relapsed.
It's like, that's not, that's not how this works. Um, well, not only that, if you're on methadone or Suboxone, a lot of people in the NAA meetings are like, well, you're not really in recovery because you're on methadone or Suboxone and to a doctor that's such bullshit because they, they are in recovery.
They're just on a recovery for, with a medication for recovery. It's like saying to a diabetic. You're not really in. Control of your diabetes because you're an incident you're cheating. I mean, it's absolutely such a medieval outdated view of addiction and recovery. It drives me nuts. I'm right there with you.
My man. So you get into recovery though. And when does the advocacy start? Well, while I was getting through recovery, I was keeping a diary and starting a memoir. Uh, of course I've been keeping a diary since age 15, so that's always been an outlet of mine. Um, it's kind of funny to read about your 15 year old self and what you're worried about back then, but, um, Eventually, I felt confident enough to publish the memoir.
It took a while. I mean, it took a while mechanistically to find an agent and to find a press and stuff, but yeah, everybody's interested in the story. Um, but took a while to like, feel brave enough, but once I did, it felt so cathartic and. Imagining a lot of positive and a lot of negative feedback, and I've mostly gotten the positive feedback, but you know, there's been some negative feedback, but, you know, um, if you write about something controversial, this is something you can, you can expect.
But I would say like, in my mind there was always the activist part of it saying, how can I help people with this? How can I turn lemons into lemonade? How can I turn my experience into something productive than other people can, can, uh, benefit from? So I would say like immediately, because I've always been involved in one social cause or another, that's just how I was brought up.
We were all ways involved in something. Well, that's awesome. And before we get into what the advocacy looks like, let's take a break. Uh, Peter, if you wouldn't mind shouting out where people can find you online, they can buy the book, all that kind of. Um, yeah, I have a new book that's coming out called, seen through the smoke about cannabis in spring of 2023, but they could also find my other book, um, which is my memoir about addiction.
I met simply@petergrinspoon.com and you just have to spell the last name right. Which is grin like smile, spoon, like fork. So it's Peter grinspoon.com and this I'm pretty easy to reach. I'm pretty easy to find on Twitter. If you've been following the show for a while, you know, I'm a huge fan of road runner CVD.
I used all of their products. Seriously. I run through a tub of their muscle gel every couple of weeks because I'm in my thirties and everything hurts. Their balm is perfect for keeping my skin smooth and healthy, and I mix their CBD flower with every joint I roll to give my high that perfect equilibrium I'm always looking for.
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You are, uh, I think, or at least I will let me, let me rephrase that. I know you best from your advocacy around cannabis. And I think partly is because you have the, the MD, you are a doctor and you're talking about cannabis and industry that for a long time was sort of a persona non grata in the medical field.
What has that been like in terms of being so well-known for your advocacy in, in, in your community? Some people were more supportive than others. Uh, I think there are some psychiatrists that think that my position is give everybody drugs for fun, but, you know, I think the fact that 94% of Americans support legal access to medical cannabis, um, it's pretty clear that the doctors have been out voted on this issue and is there is sort of sad.
The doctors were on the wrong side of the war on drugs instead of like thinking for themselves and, um, developing an independent opinion like my dad was able to do. And, uh, some other people, uh, Andrew Weil, I mean, you know, the doctors basically just sort of repeated the drug war nonsense. And, you know, or they were sort of on the fence, they didn't fight it and they didn't promote it.
Um, but you know, it was, Dante says the hottest places in hell are for those who sit in the fence. I, I really think that as a profession, we could have done more, but the fact is right now, what patients want to talk about is medical marijuana and doctors don't know very much about it. Um, because they haven't been taught the endocannabinoid system.
They teach it in like 30% of medical schools. And a lot of the stuff they're exposed to is just the negative side. You know, there are. Of cannabis and you have to be familiar with the negative side, but there's very little discussion in the American medical press of the positive sides. It's more in the lay press or in the European literature, like in Israel where they're on fire with medical cannabis research, um, or throughout Europe.
So I think doctors are just so insulated from anything except for the negative drug war nonsense about cannabis. They just don't know much about it, but then their patients are, can we talk about medical cannabis? Can we talk about medical cannabis? And that really catches a lot of the doctors flat-footed.
So I think increasingly, um, my colleagues are, are viewing me as a resource and someone that can help educate them about cannabis and also can help educate their patients about cannabis. So I, I. Love that, uh, sort of specification, uh, when it, especially when it comes to medical, I guess my question to, to follow up on that though, would be, you know, if I went to my doctor today and I mentioned that, let's say, I don't know, I'm drinking three cups of coffee today.
They would probably look at me funny, but then we would, we would able to be able to have that. Um, understandable discussion about, well, you know, are you getting benefits of that, but can I tell you about the negatives, that kind of thing there isn't that for drug other drugs? Right. If I went to my, in fact, this has happened to me where I've been at a doctor's appointment, they asked me, you know, any sort of drug use of course.
And I mentioned that I have my medical card and sometimes, oh, okay, that's fine. And I mentioned that I microdose, uh, and there's either, or, or there's just like the, well, you know, that that's not really something that we read, right. There's no, uh, independent thought there. So my question is to follow up on that, why is it that the only conversations that we can have around this are of the medicinal cannabis?
What if I just want to talk about the pleasure of cannabis use and I want my doctor to correctly advise me on the pros, the pros and negatives. Well, again, first of all, most doctors don't know that much about cannabis. Second of all, is my dad said they're both. Perpetuaters and victims of the propaganda campaign of the war on drugs.
So they sort of repeated a lot of this nonsense, but they also, that's all they've been exposed to. And what I, when I wrote a piece for Harvard health about medical marijuana, about four years ago, I had to talk them into it because they were now they're much more interested in it. But, and I said, if you're a doctor, no matter if you're pro anti or neutral about cannabis, you have to create an environment where the patient feels comforting.
Discussing it with you or they'll clam up. They won't talk to you. You won't know about it, which is dangerous. There are medication interactions, particularly CBD, but with cannabis as well. Um, if you're on, for example, heavy daily cannabis use, you need more anesthesia. Now. There's nothing wrong with that.
Except if the anesthesiologist doesn't know this, I mean, the lack of communication is so dangerous. And, you know, I was just reading, tweeted a study this morning, um, about how, um, The Michael J. Fox foundation did a survey of like 2000 Parkinson's patients and something like 70% of them use cannabis, but 31% of them didn't mention it to their doctors.
Uh, I mean, people just get this snooty, dismissive uninformed sort of rejection when they talk to their doctors about it, which is a bad thing to do. Even if medical marijuana wasn't helpful because it, uh, Stifles the conversation and the communication between the doctor and the patient. But given that there are like tens of millions of people deriving like clear benefit from medical cannabis, it's like absolutely irrational position to take.
So I think we really need to reprogram, or at least educate the medical community so that they can have discussions that they're comfortable with, that the patients are comfortable with. And it's different among different types of doctors. Like oncologists tend to be very pro medical cannabis because they've seen for the last couple of decades, how benefit, how it's benefited their patients, like the doctors that took your, my brother, Danny at the Dana Farber in the 1970s were convinced because they saw that it helped people.
Then you have the psychiatrists who don't treat people with medical cannabis, who don't look at any data except for randomized. Trials, which have been suppressed about the benefits of cannabis by the us government for the last 50 years. So there aren't very many of them, they won't look at real-world data and they just flatly conclude, um, cannabis doesn't help any mental health issue.
It only makes it worse. And then, you know, just to juxtapose that with like the millions of people that are getting benefit from their anxiety with cannabis is really, really, um, confusing to a lot of patients and to a lot of doctors too. So I just think that we have a lot of work to do and a lot of education because patients, you know, everybody, including nieces talk to your doctor, if you want a medical cannabis, let them know because it's dangerous not to, but that should be a value added thing.
Talking to your doctor, not a traumatic or negative experience, it makes you not want to talk to them again. That's such a great point, Peter, and I really appreciate you, you, you saying that, uh, sort of a follow-up on that when it comes to the education, you know, is there anyone overlooking or reviewing this education?
Cause I can think of this. Must've been about a year ago, I was invited by someone I know to, to attend a virtual education session called you know, talking to your patients about, um, addiction. And I was probably, I'm guessing the only non-doctor on this 200 plus person, you know, zoom or whatever, right?
The guy who was the quote unquote educator, uh, it was basically an advertisement for AA. This is how you find AA. This is, you know, AA is the only way. I mean, it, it was straight out of the 19. I was, I was appalled, but I was also terrified because I was scared to death for all the people that, that were going to walk away from that all the doctors and implement those ideas in their practice.
Is anyone overseeing this stuff or is it kind of the wild, wild. There are a lot of new educational programs for doctors. But the question is whether the doctors are actually pursuing them. Um, number one, number two, there are some like sort of Wolf in sheep's clothing, educational programs, sort of like the one you stumbled into that this is book evidence-based approaches to medical marijuana.
The introduction of which was written by the head of the office of national drug control policy, the psych refer jihadist. It was really awful. I couldn't believe that was like the introduction to this book that was supposedly for clinicians, but because clinicians don't have a background in medical marijuana, they're susceptible to this kind of quasi education, this sort of ideologically motivated.
Furthermore at the, I went to a continuing medical education conference about a year ago, just to keep up my skills and license in internal medicine and primary care. And the guy who did medical cannabis basically said he didn't know anything about medical cannabis. Then he went and quoted this book that was like this, you know, kind of pseudo book about cannabis.
Um, that was anti-cannabis and sort of made fun of medical cannabis the whole time. And I complained to the course director because this was at my own hospital. And I thought, honestly, that Harvard could do a lot better and they didn't change anything or really respond to my complaint. Uh, I actually mentioned this in my book, this coming up as an example, because I don't want to throw bombs or cause trouble, but I was displaying.
Just so disappointed in the quality of education about medical cannabis at this Harvard continuing education course, that the quality of everything else was spectacular. There's no reason for this. Um, and when I talked to the course director against it, he, um, well, I won't go into the whole thing, but he was not open to having other voices that actually, for example, anybody who's actually used cannabis.
Anybody who's actually benefited from medical cannabis or anybody who's ever treated patients with medical cannabis, if you've never treated a patient with medical cannabis, you've never been within 10 feet of a burning joint. You've never used medical cannabis and you're only exposed to negative information about it.
Um, How are you going to give an accurate presentation to other doctors? And then to get back to your other question, you know, the, the line between recreational and medical cannabis use is very thin. You know, there obviously some uses that are very recreational, like take a couple puffs before a grateful dead concert.
There's some uses that are purely medical, like my brother dying from cancer, but there are a lot of cases, like most cases are in between in the gray zone. And they've also studied this, like people who get their weed from a recreational dispensary, like something like two thirds of it end up using it for medical complaints.
They just don't want to go through the expense of getting one of those little medical cards. So, um, the fact that we don't talk about wellness benefits, um, of cannabis really astounds me too. I mean, It's primary care doctors in particular, we encourage people on wellness all the time. And here you have something that helps people with their creativity, with their mindfulness, with their spirituality, with their relaxation, with their sex lives and with their connection to other people.
I mean, we're going through a epidemic of loneliness and cannabis helps people connect. It's not like an isolating drug, like opiates, where you just want to be alone and use and fill you fork and curl up people, connect with each other. So the wellness benefits are a huge benefit to patients. And the fact that doctors either ignore or don't know anything about this makes me really sad.
Let's use that as an opportunity to roll in then to your work. You know, you've got this new book coming out, which is awesome. I'm sure everybody's going to want to pick that up. What else? You know, what, what else are you doing on the front lines of this to try to change hearts and minds? Well, first and foremost, I'm a clinician.
So I see patients. In my clinic. Um, I work in a very underserved, impoverished inner city clinic. So I, I do the medical certifications obviously for free as part of my primary care, um, career. Um, and I think it's actually really well suited to primary care. As I mentioned before, it makes my life easier. It makes the life of my patients easier by giving us options for these really difficult things that we're trying to treat.
And also if you have the primary care doctor doing cannabis, just like if you have the primary care doctor doing Suboxone, which I also do. You know, the specialist, you know, the patient you've known the patient for years. You know what other medications they're on. You're up to date on the medical stuff.
It just is so much more coherent. So one of the things I'm going to call for my book is that they integrate it into primary care. Which would, of course, including would need it like a Manhattan project to like educate the doctors. But, and then if there's something complicated, like an allergy or cannabis hyperemesis syndrome, or concerned about a drug interaction, that's beyond the bandwidth of a primary care doctor.
That's when we need cannabis specialists sort of like that's when we need cardiologists or kidney specialists. So, but I also have a private practice, which I do for medical cannabis. So, um, I consult with people all over the world and I certified people in Massachusetts. So I do it. Um, so first and foremost, I'm a clinician, but I'm also an educator.
I do a lot of speaking and the small groups, large groups, uh, medical groups, nurses, groups, colleges, Medical students, you name it. So I do a lot of education. I've always been interested in public speaking is one of my favorite things to do. And then, you know, I, I do a lot of writing. I write for Harvard health, my, um, my blog on CBD got like 5 million page views.
I mean, it gets my stuff, seems to get read by a few people. And I like to educate people about cannabis and try to take, uh, what I consider to be a middle path, which is much more pro than anti because, you know, I just, you know, it's not like between me and Nixon, it's between a reasonable doctor that is against cannabis and a reasonable doctor is for cannabis for good reasons, you know, because I do think it's crazy.
Make cannabis and two little gummy bears that a four year old would eat I'm against that. Uh, it shouldn't taste bad, but why make it into like a candy? How would auto kid know whether or not the whole package of gummy bears and emergency room visits are increasing? You know, I don't think we've proven it's safe for pregnancy or breastfeeding, and I'm concerned about teenage users.
So I'm not sure. Pro cannabis across the board. I'm pro safe and reasonable regulation of fully legalized cannabis along with expungements and reparations, because the war on drugs is needlessly ruined so many lives. And I don't know why law enforcement is involved in this at all. Uh, you know, it's, it should be doctors, nurses, social workers, scientists, public health officials, not law enforcement just makes everything worse.
But so I do a lot of speaking education and writing and advocacy, and then the, for the advocacy, um, I help out, you know, as much as I can, a lot of different groups asked me to speak or to write this or that. And I am a board member for this great group called doctors for cannabis regulation, dfcr.org and doctors for cannabis regulation.
It's not just doctors, mostly doctors, but it's sort of a pro legalization physician group, you know, probably going to station. As I mentioned with sensible regulation, it's. I'm trying to help educate doctors about cannabis, but, you know, the fact is most doctors are in favor of medical marijuana, and there's no reason why the medical societies, um, are so against cannabis, almost all of them are.
And, you know, you have to ask, is it like the big pharma influence or is it fear of the unknown or is it just been so internalized the stigma that people have been hearing about for year after year after year? So the medical societies need to need to sort of get out of the 1950s. Um, but I, I do advocacy on a, on a wide variety of fronts, but I would say most of it's coordinated through doctors for cannabis regulation.
Well, that is a perfect transition into once again, if you wouldn't mind shouting at where people can find you, if they're interested in bringing you in to speak, which I think everybody should. And if they want to read the book, all that kind of good stuff, shout out where people can do that. Sure. Well, it's Peter grinspoon.com.
Um, so it was pretty easy to find me and, um, I also could be fun to Twitter pretty easily. Wonderful. Well, we finished with the same two questions every time. The first of which is, you know, we, we talk a lot about mental health and, and, and the, the importance of centering yourself in this show. So what are your self-care habits?
Well, first of all, speaking, I'm also a certified health and wellness coach, um, which our hospital trained us because so many people were suffering from burnout. Uh, the doctors needed help and that was before COVID. Now it's like a bloodbath. Um, so I spent a lot of time speaking to people about healthy habits and how to keep themselves happy.
I'm happy and healthy, or at least happier and healthier. I spent a lot of time counseling doctors and coaching doctors. Um, but I exercise, um, I've learned to, you know, When I'm upset, talk to people, ask for help. You know, we're a community, I've got this great community. Why like keep miserable things to myself, everybody else on earth ask me for help.
And I actually like it, it helps me stay grounded, helping other people. So I need to feel like I can ask other people for help and to eat healthy. And I'm married to this absolutely wonderful woman. I've got really nice kids, even though they're off at college, you know, and I just hang out and have fun. I mean, the one thing I don't do well is that I, I tend to work too much, but I like what I do and I like to write, but I definitely can be a little bit of a workaholic, but that sort of runs in my family.
Well, uh, thank you for all your work. It is very appreciated. So, uh, the last question, uh, th that, that we, we always do is we've now spent the last almost 43 minutes hearing why you're amazing why we should be all following your work as I do. This is your chance to shout out some other people that you follow, whether it shows you listen to or watch, or what are you reading?
All that. Well, uh, where would I begin? I've been very interested in the, in the secondary literature. Uh, I think maps, um, map S is a great group for people to follow, uh, for cannabis. Obviously my advocacy group, the, uh, doctor for cannabis regulation, um, is a great group. I also think the drug policy foundation is absolutely excellent.
Um, and in terms of individuals, you know, they're all the drug heroes like Julie Holland, who's psychiatrist in New York who does a lot of work in cannabis and psychedelics. There's Ethan Nadelmann, who has been fighting for decades for legalization. There's Rick Doblin. Who's the head of maps who I remember him working with my dad, like 25 years ago, suing the government so that psychiatrist could use ecstasy.
Decades ago. Um, so I can go on and on and on. There are a lot of really good people. Um, but, um, I'm just fortunate to be part of this community. Uh, you know, people who are interested in and work on cannabis and psychedelics tend to be very open, bright, curious, communicative, and sort of kind people. So it's just a great community.
You'd be part of. Well, I am honored to, to be a part, uh, even at the farthest reaches of the same community you are, and Peter, you are doing incredible work and I'm so thankful you took the time to chat with me today. Absolutely. A pleasure. Thank you for having me. Thank you for supporting the show here at choose your struggle.
We rely on all of y'all to help us end stigma and promote honest and fact-based education around mental health, substance misuse, and recovery and drug use and policy. And there are so many ways to engage with our work from our podcast to our storytelling. To bring me in to speak to your company, your school or your organization.
You can also support us on Patrion for as little as $3 and 40 cents a month. And we're so appreciative. This work is grueling at times and your support goes a long way to helping us keep going. So pine is a choose your struggle.com and find me@jayschiffman.com. And thank you. Thank you for being a part of the choose your struggle family.
Choose your struggle.
If you're liking the show, please consider leaving us a review. If you're listening on apple, you can leave a review right on your player for everybody else. Check out the link in the show notes. All right, we've come to the end of it. Ended up sort of the choose your struggle podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in.
I hope you enjoyed that conversation with the insightful, insightful, Dr. Peter Grinspoon. Um, When I found the most fascinating it is, is his comments towards the end about how maddening it can be when his own institutions are sort of on the wrong side of this, you know, it can be very alienating to know that you're right and know that you're doing the right thing, but have those that you respect and those that you are surrounded with, be stuck in the past, stuck in the backwards way of thinking.
And so I just admire Dr. Grinspoon his commitment to moving these conversations forward. Sincerely, thank you doctor for doing that. If you are doing something similar, I'd love to hear from you. Pod and box. I'm going to keep saying it in the show notes, uh, in, and you can just go to pod and box.com/cys.
Leave a message. All right. This week's card is going to come from the 54 ways to ease the anxious mind card pack from blurt. There it is. I haven't done that in awhile. I did not throw them around the room this time. Fantastic. Getting better. Oh, this is an interesting one. This is, uh, okay, so the tip is write down painful thoughts and then rip them up and throw them out.
I like that. Um, you know, one of the things I preach all the time with my daily check-in mindfulness tip is, is that just getting it out there can be very cathartic. It can be very healing. And so that is a good tip. Uh, you know, I know a lot of people are, we see this a lot, I guess, in, in a popular culture of like doing that and then throwing it into the water or, you know, throwing it in the fire and literally seeing it being destroyed can be very healing.
I've never done that, but I liked the idea and, and, and really just getting it out, just getting it out of your head and down on paper and seeing in real life can take a lot of the fear. Yeah. So great tip, thank you. Blurt try that this week. Um, and, and sort of on that, not really, but you know, the last couple of weeks have been really traumatic for people who care about progressive ideas around, and it really shouldn't be called progressive, but, but it's not an abortion.
That's going to be, you're a good egg this week is just check-in with them and do something for this. Uh, I don't even know what to call it. Abortion fight. I mean, do you really call it a fight when one side is trying to preserve the rule of law and the other side is trying to take it away, I guess, maintenance important, abortion maintenance, I don't know, but do something for that.
You know, I, I said this on last week when my wife and I went to the protest here in Philly, um, you know, we, our, our, our regular donors to planned parenthood, uh, Do what makes you feel like you are doing something? That's what I'll say that is you're, you're, you're a good idea today. Do what makes you feel comfortable that you're contributing?
Whether that's just supporting someone, you know, who is fighting this fight? Um, if you are like my grandmother, uh, continuing to, you know, be one of the people who shields, uh, women who are going into planned parenthood from the awful vitriol of, of the craziest there. Um, and I mean, the protest was not, not the people in fighting paradigm, of course, but do what makes you comfortable that you are contributing in some way, because this is super important.
And, um, you know, these are the moments. Yeah. If our society is to survive one day, people will look back on in the history books and you'll be able to say it to, you know, your grandkids or niece, whatever. Yeah. This is what I did during that period. So do that, but above all else as always be vulnerable, show your empathy, spread your love and choose your struggle.