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Welcome to the podcast. We call it TWICV. It is our effort to provide a fast-paced, entertaining, and alternative voice to the propaganda and hype flowing out of colleges in America today.
This week in College Viability is a proud affilate of The EdUP Experience podcast network.
Gary (00:03)
Welcome back to another special episode of This Week in College Viability. My name is Gary Stocker, and today we're welcoming what I think is one of the more unique guests I've had. Dr. Paula Langto is a principal consultant with Academic Game Changers, and she has an experience for the college that didn't make it. We're going to talk about that today. Dr. Langto, welcome to the podcast.
Dr Paula Langteau (00:04)
Thank you,
Gary (00:26)
So your experience is broad across higher education. Tell us what you're doing, trying to do, at Academic Game Changers.
Dr Paula Langteau (00:35)
So I actually started Academic Game Changers quite a number of years ago, and at the time I focused a lot on curriculum development and the development of new programs to strengthen colleges and their partnerships. But recently, having experienced a college closure, I've also added to my portfolio expertise in helping colleges determine strategic direction to try to bring a turnaround when they're in financial crisis.
and if they are unable to do that, to close with compassion and dignity.
Gary (01:07)
And the closure part, as we know in this industry, you and I were talking before we got started, the higher education market is going through a change that is both possible to predict and impossible to predict. And your experience at Presentation College, I think, puts you in a unique position because there are very few that have been through that. And the challenges and the traumas had to have been substantial. So how did that experience at Presentation College?
help you prepare to provide guidance to these colleges that are either know they're closing, suspicious of that, or may close despite all protestations otherwise.
Dr Paula Langteau (01:43)
Really good question. As we know, Presentation College is not alone in this crisis. Over 400 more colleges are expected to close by 2030. So we're talking a little over five years. My experience is useful in many areas. First of all, working with boards. And in my case, there was also a sponsoring organization.
as there were sisters in the convent who sponsored the college, leading inclusive strategic planning to try to identify the college's potential viability and also the viability of specific academic programs in market responsive arenas, because the world is changing and higher ed is changing. Developing and exploring potential partnerships, which I think are going to be a huge part of the future of colleges and universities in this country.
Working with regional accrediting organizations and the Department of Education as colleges close and the kinds of experiences that those organizations have had have been quite negative when colleges closed their door at the last minute. And trying to change that so colleges can help transition their students, faculty and staff. Working on a provisional plan to prepare for all of those things. Developing comprehensive communications.
for all constituents so that when that announcement is made and there are a myriad of questions from all different areas that there's preparation to answer those questions and help calm fears. Securing grant dollars to assist in the transition. And this includes reaching out to third party organizations who can support the transition, particularly of students, but also of faculty and staff. Developing teach -out agreements. Most regional accrediting agencies only require about two.
but they don't necessarily serve all of the students who need to transition. Developing opportunities for faculty and staff to make that transition and successfully secure their next employment. And then there's lots of details like staggering the end dates for employees, putting together the best possible packages depending on the finances of the institution. There's a lot of moving parts.
Gary (03:55)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.
Dr Paula Langteau (04:03)
And I'm not only familiar with all of those now, but also was able to successfully navigate an institution through all those moving parts.
Gary (04:12)
And you mentioned boards a minute ago and...
Dr Paula Langteau (04:13)
you
Gary (04:17)
folks that listen to my podcasts and blogs regularly know that I, with loving intent, I kind of poke the college leadership bear. I kind of poke college boards and I kind of poke the faculty bear with intent because I view myself somewhat as a mark, helping the market realize there are challenges. In your experience with boards, am I right or wrong, Dr. Langtow?
College boards need to be poked. They're not really where they need to be in terms of managing the organizations they had that fiduciary responsibility for.
Dr Paula Langteau (04:51)
Well, I'm not sure what you mean by poked, but I would say that especially small private colleges, their board members are wonderfully intelligent, successful professionals in their own fields. But often they know less about not -for -profits and perhaps even less about college finance. And they rely very heavily on the college leadership to explain and interpret the data for them.
help determine how much runway the college has for turnaround, the resources available and help to really develop a strategic plan for bringing about that positive change. But see, here's the other piece of this that I think is really critical, and that is small colleges are often led by first -time administrators who never had to interpret this data, who didn't have to develop critical turnaround timelines.
Gary (05:30)
you
Dr Paula Langteau (05:46)
much less develop a plan for that turnaround. And so in short, they're all learning together. They're wonderfully compassionate, dedicated individuals. But often for a college in crisis, there just isn't the luxury of time for that learning curve.
Gary (06:03)
Fascinating, fascinating explanation. And again, from my perspective, as I sit here, one of the few who've been through it, who can share that perspective. Dr. Lang told fascinating stuff. My next question has to go back to closures. And I've got four groups I want you to address. There are going to be more private college closures. I know that you're suspicious of that. You've lived it. And just one or two pieces of guidance.
And I'm going to do just one at a time. I've got four. And I'll tell you the four are college boards, then presidents, then cabinets, and then faculty. And I can help step you through those. I've got a special question for students. But what guidance would you provide to college boards as they look at financial challenges they're facing in private colleges?
Dr Paula Langteau (06:34)
Okay, and let me talk first about, I'm gonna put your first two together a little bit here, and that is college boards and presidents. Because together, they have to have open and frank conversations about the financial outlook of the institution.
I've written a number of articles about this posted on my LinkedIn page about the questions that they need to address head on together and development of possible strategies for moving forward. My experience is that many boards have not had these conversations with their presidents. And I'm only speculating here, but perhaps there is a fear that the struggles of the institution will be associated with their leadership on both sides and in a negative way.
But the crisis of small private colleges is not isolated to a handful of colleges and likely didn't develop under the leadership of a single president or a single board. Higher ed is changing and the struggles are real for even the most proficient presidents and boards. So they really need to be able to be forthright about their concerns without fear that it's going to look like we are not doing things the way we're supposed to be doing them.
Gary (08:02)
Fascinating, fascinating. We have a dedicated timeframe here. I'd like to go three hours if we could. You've got some fabulous perspective on this stuff. Maybe again, we do this again someday, Paula. So you had a cabinet, I'm presuming, at presentation colleges, or you've seen cabinets for other college presidents. What guidance would you give to those at VP of Finance or CFO or Marketing or Admissions?
Dr Paula Langteau (08:12)
Sure.
Right. So I think that the cabinet also needs to be frank about information. They need to share critical information about their enrollment struggles, about the academic programs that are enrolling and those that are not, about the finances of the institution and what is trending and where it looks like it's going, about advancement and how fundraising is going. It can be human nature to bury problems.
groups, especially if there are fears that people will be held accountable for them, whether or not it is of their doing. And there's instinct to protect one's own turf. But a college cannot survive with turf wars going on. There has to be market analysis that needs to be done to be sure that the programs the college is offering are what the market is demanding. Academic programs have to be reviewed. There will be some that are under enrolling that may need to be discontinued.
and others that there's clearly a market demand for that could be grown. Financial analysis has to be done to identify the academic programs costing more than they're bringing in. In other words, hard questions need to be asked and action taken.
Gary (09:35)
Dr. Brian Rosenberg, who was up at McAllister College up in Minnesota, next door to you up in Minnesota, wrote a book and released it this past December that was one of the best title books I've ever seen. And the title of the book, if you haven't read it, is Whatever It Is, comma, I Don't Like It. And of course, he was writing about faculty. And that's really the fourth group that I'd like you to think about in terms of providing guidance to faculty. Their role is unquestioned in terms of content.
Dr Paula Langteau (09:56)
you
you
Gary (10:03)
What appears to be that the role of faculty in terms of management and direction might be changing as we speak? What are your thoughts on that?
Dr Paula Langteau (10:12)
So it really does start from the ground up, if you will. There has to be that transparency and communication throughout the organization. And deans and faculty too often protect their own programs. And it's human nature. This is their livelihood. But too often programs and courses are saved only to lead ultimately to the demise of the institution. So it's hard to say this program is just not bringing in students anymore.
we might need to discontinue that because it might mean those individuals need to move on to another institution. They could be potentially losing their jobs. And human nature, we also want to protect each other and take care of each other. At small colleges, we all know each other and we know each other's families and we're involved in each other's lives. But at the end of the day, we have to make sure we are doing what's best to keep the organization moving forward and thriving. And this means
Deans having to look at course load, they need to look at enrollment. I mean, classes that are under enrolled may need to be cut. Faculty love to develop new curriculum and new courses, and I don't blame them. As a faculty member, I love to do it too. And there's so much you want to be able to share with your students. But if there's too many offerings in a particular category, then there are fewer students in each of those courses.
And so it's costing the institution more money to run, say for example, five or six electives in a program that maybe you only need two or three. And so these are the kinds of sort of frank conversations that have to happen. And I don't blame the faculty because if the administrators don't have these conversations with them and help them understand, of course they're doing what they do best. And that is developing new and exciting programming for students.
Gary (12:07)
Sure. And speaking of students, I'd like your perspective from a college president and one who's been through challenges with presentation and I'm pretty guessing other places, but I want to set this one up and envision we're heading toward April and you and I knew on that April, May, and probably this year, June, because of the FAFSA mess, that there will be families sitting around the kitchen table making that college, that final college decision. And I worry about that. I ponder about that from my perspective, even though I'm long past that.
that stage of life. And I want to relate a story about a student at Notre Dame College in Ohio that just closed here in the last couple of weeks. And I won't use her name, although I've used it in other places. But she was quoted in a story saying, this is my life, the student said from Notre Dame College. This is my future. I'm paying money to go here. I had to pay money to move here. And here's what really got me. Here's what I like to set this up with. This student from Notre Dame College says, it's crazy.
Dr Paula Langteau (12:56)
Mm.
Gary (13:06)
to think a question I have for prospective colleges is, are you financially stable? I never thought this could happen. In that context, and you're sitting at these kitchen tables with students and their families, what guidance would you give them, Dr. Lantow?
Dr Paula Langteau (13:24)
Colleges aren't going to tell you that they're at risk and that's because they're working to turn around. No one wants to close a college. They're doing everything in their power to grow and protect their student body. So many of these colleges also, small privates, serve a large number of underserved students with financial support that makes them a lot more affordable than the public's. And so, you know, for example, Presentation College where I serve,
served the largest percentage of students of color compared to any other college in the state. So their missions drive them. They want to continue to live out those missions and serve students. And so when it comes to what to say to the students, first of all, I would say choose a college that is strong in your field of interest. And the reason I say that is if they are known, for example, for their nursing program.
Gary (14:09)
.
Dr Paula Langteau (14:22)
they're unlikely to shut down that program first. You're going to see some warning of the college going under. And I just don't want to dissuade students from attending small private colleges. Please understand, they're amazingly strong positive impact they have on student growth and development. But in general, institutions with fewer than 1200 to 1500 students and small endowments are at the greatest risk. So I would encourage,
parents and students to Google the college. What is happening there? Have there been a rash of program closures? Have there been large budget cuts? This is probably in the news. And so take a look, walk around the facilities. Is there obvious deferred maintenance? I mean, what's frustrating is sometimes students and parents choose a college for reasons that, well, they're not the best choices. And I'll give you an example. I took my daughter on tour.
of colleges four years ago. And she was making her decisions as many students do on the look and feel of the campus. Many students, the opportunity to play sports. At Presentation College, 70 % of our students were athletes. Some are looking at the proximity of their family or where their friends are going to school. My daughter narrowed her list to small campuses with amenities like a Starbucks shop. Yeah, we had a long talk.
Gary (15:29)
Ha
Dr Paula Langteau (15:51)
So I think it's important to look at, you know, how large is the school, the deferred maintenance. Now, keep in mind, sometimes new facilities are not necessarily a sign of safety. I have heard of many colleges building, for example, a new football stadium just a few years before announcing closure. You know, from the statistical side, look at the size of their operating budget and endowment. This is free information on ProPublica.
You know, are they growing or shrinking over the last several years? And this is probably what parents are going to look at. I don't know too many students that would research this. But if you're really worried, many of the first things I mentioned alone may be sufficient to figure this out. But if you need data, the endowment should be substantially larger than the operating budget. At Presentation College, our operating and our budget and our endowment were very close to the same size. Huge red flag.
Gary (16:31)
Yeah.
Dr Paula Langteau (16:49)
If you're still uncertain, I guess I would pass the ball back to you, Gary, because you do the statistical information more than anyone that I know on following a colleges and doing that research that I would be suggesting parents might do on a single college or two.
Gary (17:00)
Thank you.
And to offer that, of course, the college viability apps that I produce for both public and private colleges will help students make those decisions. And that's my business. But you talked about the faculty question a minute ago. And from my perspective, and again, tell me if you believe I'm right or wrong, even in a higher education, it's still always about the business at the end of the day. Am I right or wrong?
Dr Paula Langteau (17:17)
It's about the business in the sense that you have to stay afloat. I mean, colleges are, most colleges are not for profit. We're not talking about the for -profit institutions.
Gary (17:44)
Right.
Dr Paula Langteau (17:46)
So it's not about business in the sense of making money. It's about business in the sense of at least breaking even. And too often, I think, small private colleges have invested and invested, provided scholarship support while they're also having to take on huge expenses with much more complex technology these days. It costs institutions hundreds of thousands of dollars annually just to purchase.
every year the technology they need to run the softwares for enrollment, for housing, for keeping track of grades, all of these things. And they're very expensive. And smaller colleges and larger colleges have to pay the same amount, but there's obviously less revenue for the smaller colleges to keep up. So it's about business in the sense that...
We have to make sure we're not drowning in debt and harming ourselves as we work to try to help students.
Gary (18:45)
So Dr. Lanto, it's that part time in the podcast where I'm going to ask you to get out your crystal ball. And I have two questions for you, because you provide so much depth of experience in higher education in particular, but with the closure of presentation college and others. Crystal ball one time, what does a private college market look like in three to five years?
Dr Paula Langteau (18:51)
. . .
Sure, I'm happy to answer this with the caveat that I wish I had a crystal ball and tell you where the direction that I see it's headed. And that is clearly it's going to be much slimmer the private college market than it is right now. I think many of today's institutions will be closed. Those who take advantage of proper planning, however, will be stronger. And I think what we're going to see are more partnerships with businesses.
Gary (19:11)
Ha ha ha ha ha.
Dr Paula Langteau (19:35)
to serve the changing marketplace, institutions that come together to partner and share expenses and streamline services the way the publics already have built in the opportunity to do. And really, it's my greatest hope that many will survive because I do believe they serve a really important niche in the market. For the colleges that inevitably will close, my mission,
is to help them do that with compassion and dignity and make sure that we are placing every single student, faculty and staff member. Too many times I have heard stories from the higher education liaison for the higher learning commission who told me that colleges would lock their doors. Like one day they just had a padlock on the door and a sign in the window and students had no notice. They had to be out of the dorms in a week and it could be the middle of the semester.
that's not responsible. It's important that they identify the runway. How much time do we have before the money runs out? And make some strong decisions at least six to 12 months before the dollars are gone so that they can help with those transitions. IVs and the well -endowed institutions, of course, will continue. Unfortunately, oftentimes they may serve a less diverse, higher socioeconomic class of students.
And so my fear is that with many small private college closures, that there may be fewer opportunities for the rest of the population.
Gary (21:12)
And then you still got that crystal ball on your desk, I see. And do you see much difference? Do you see much different for public colleges in three to five years?
Dr Paula Langteau (21:16)
Ha ha!
And I spent a large portion of my career in public colleges as well. And many of the small publics are closing too. I know that you covered recently a closure in what used to be called the University of Wisconsin Colleges, a network of smaller campuses. I actually led one of those campuses before I came to PC for 11 years. And many of those have been closing in the last couple of years. So small publics are also in danger.
I think that public community colleges will grow. I think that many market responsive degrees will either become short -term delivery adjusted or they will be developed for short -term delivery. Because I think in the market right now people are looking for how do I gear up quickly? How do I have my college degree done in say two to three years? They want to get the graduates out into the market earlier.
And I see an abundance of new partnerships with businesses to meet that demand. Now, the large land grant schools, they'll continue to thrive. Many of the smaller state schools may need to partner with each other to streamline expenses. And we're seeing that. I've been called a few times on how to develop those kinds of partnerships. They need to make difficult market responsive decisions in their academic programming as well.
because students are voting with their feet on which majors they want to go into and they are linked more and more to the job market. Liberal arts, unfortunately, is sometimes a difficult sell, even though I think it's extremely valuable and we need to do more to really talk about that value. But that's another podcast. I think a lot of programming will move online into virtual environments.
and with the advances in technology augmenting the educational experience. So I guess in summary, I hope and pray that the cost associated with these changes and the reduction in opportunities for higher ed in this country won't cause a larger divide between those with access to a baccalaureate degree and those without.
Gary (23:42)
Dr. Paula Langto has been my guest today and Paula is the principal consultant for Academic Game Changers. And you can't see the video because this is just a podcast. But if you could see the video, you would see me shaking my head almost the entire 25 minutes we've been talking. If you're looking for guidance, I talk with a lot of folks in higher education. Dr. Langto is one you want to reach out to. You can do that through my podcast. You can do that directly to Dr. Langto. I'll make sure to put some connection information, Paula, on the podcast. Show notes.
Dr Paula Langteau (24:09)
Thank you.
Gary (24:12)
has been my pleasure and I'm going to be printing off the transcript of this and reading it over and over again just for the guidance that you've shared. Paula, thank you very much.
Dr Paula Langteau (24:20)
Thank you, Gary. I appreciate you having me on the podcast today.
Gary (24:24)
My name is Gary Stocker and this has been a special episode of This Week in College Viability with Dr. Paul Alangto, the principal consultant for Academic Game Changers. We'll talk again next time.