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Presented by the American Bar Association’s Law Student Division, the ABA Law Student Podcast covers issues that affect law students, law schools, and recent grads. From finals and graduation to the bar exam and finding a job, this show is your trusted resource for the next big step.
Todd Berger (00:00):
Law school teaches you to think like a lawyer. At least that's the line we've all heard, but what does that change mean? Does it mean who you were before? Law school isn't who you are after. What do we risk giving up of ourselves to make this change? As we come to the end of this season of the ABAs Law Student podcast, Shea and Manny sit down with two guests who made sure to protect their sense of self, focus on their own authenticity and leverage their interests into carving out a novel niche in legal industry by establishing themselves as experts and legitimizers in the field of sneaker law. This is the ABA Law student podcast. Hey, Chay. Hey Manny. Another season of the a a Law Student podcast. This is one that was personal to me in some sense. I connected you with the guests and it was the final episode, so I know who we talked to, but who did we hear from for Sneaker law?
Manny Fernandez (01:08):
So Kenneth and Jared are two huge inspirations, and I really hope that for everybody listening here, even if you're not into sneakers like Chay and I are, or even if you're not a person who's really super into I guess art law or anything like that, this is an interview that has something for everybody because I think more than anything, it's all about being true to yourself and staying authentic in law school, which is a very sweet note to end on.
Todd Berger (01:31):
I think it's really cool what Dave Don, and I'm sure it's going to be a really great episode to listen to. So you want to get into it?
Manny Fernandez (01:36):
Yes, yes, please.
Todd Berger (01:38):
All right, here we go.
Chay Rodriguez (01:43):
Kenneth, can you tell me when did you first fall in love with sneakers and sneaker culture?
Kenneth Anand (01:49):
So I had always been a fan of sneakers since maybe age six or seven, but it wasn't until I got my first pair of Jordan's that I was really hooked. I had been begging my parents for the twos, the threes, the fours, but they finally broke down and got me the fives. Then I had the grape and teal pair of Jordan Fives that were made famous by the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air back in the day, and I wore 'em to high school and I kept a toothbrush to 'em, keeping them clean. And yeah, that really kicked it off for me. That was my first fall in love moment with sneakers where I started collecting and learning everything I could from there.
Chay Rodriguez (02:26):
Jared, what about you? When did you realize that you fell in love with sneakers and all of it, the culture surrounding it, basketball, hip hop, trading of it, all aspects of it. When was that moment for you?
Jared Goldstein (02:40):
So I was in elementary school. Air Force Ones by Nelly came out at the time and I mean, I loved the song, I loved the music video, but I got my first pair of all white Air Forces, low tops. Then it turned into mid tops, high tops. At the time, people were customizing. It was probably one of the first times that customization came on the scene. So I remember taking one of my mom's Gucci bucket hats cutting it, and I still get in trouble to this day from that. She won't let me live it down, but they didn't turn out too well. But that was definitely the first time and at that point on, I was just hooked a huge sneakerhead.
Chay Rodriguez (03:18):
Shout out to moms that keep you alive when you ruin their designer because
Jared Goldstein (03:22):
Exactly.
Chay Rodriguez (03:23):
I'm happy to still have this conversation with you today, but I don't know if I would be here if I did that to my mom. What was that aha moment, Jared, that you kind of realized that you could merge your love for sneakers with basketball, shoe culture and with the law really?
Jared Goldstein (03:40):
Yeah, so when I was in college, I had my own reselling business. That was a great experience because all of those years prior, I was just a big fan of the culture, a big sneaker head. And then I got exposure to the business side of the sneaker industry, and at that time, reselling wasn't even nearly what it is today. The only platform that really existed was eBay and then Craigslist if you wanted to meet up in person and buy and sell sneakers. So that gave me exposure on the business side. And then I got to law school and I knew that I wanted to fuse my love and passion with sneakers and the law in some way. So I started doing research asking around, and at the time, there really wasn't much that existed outside of working in a sneaker company in-house being their attorney or representing a sneaker company at a law firm.
(04:25):
There wasn't much really that was being discussed in legal space that applied sneakers. So I was fortunate enough to make law review when I was in law school and for my note, I wrote about the lack of legal protection for sneaker designs and I thought it was amazing. I thought it was really good. It was like 40 plus pages, but the review board didn't agree. They chose not to publish my note. I was very upset. I know for a fact they weren't sneaker heads. And then a short time after that, I landed my dream internship at Complex, and for those of you who may not know Complex, they're the premier media company magazine for sneakers, streetwear, hip hop, everything that I loved since I was a kid we just talked about and I used Complex as a medium to get my law review note out to the world.
(05:10):
I pitched the idea to the sneakers editor at the time, and he loved the idea. He gave me the green light, and this was outside of my duties as an intern. I was supposed to be reviewing contracts or something, but kind of went out on a whim and did that and they published my note. It was consolidated, obviously it was a thousand words or less. And then I wrote a couple more articles about legal issues applied to sneakers, and that kind of opened the doors. It opened my mind to think that, well, maybe I can make this into a career. Maybe this can be more than just articles. So at that point forward, that's when I really started thinking in that way.
Manny Fernandez (05:48):
And we've all read that Louboutin Red Bottoms trade Dress case. I think that was the only time ever in law school. I was sitting in a trademarks class and I perked up and I was like, oh, this sounds like fun. I don't remember when that case came out, but I imagine it's pretty significant for y'all's line of work.
Kenneth Anand (06:09):
Yeah, definitely. I mean, we kick off our trademark chapter with that case. It certainly changed the game in terms of the way you can protect designs of a piece of footwear. And it's sad that you say that that was the first time you perked up in trademark class. Like this is what we're trying to change with sneaker law because we feel like more and more of the subjects and topics that you learn in law school should be relevant, should be culturally engaging, should be exciting and fun, and it certainly is when you get into the practice in the real world. So why can't you learn that way throughout law school? And that's a lot of what we stand for with Sneaker Law.
Chay Rodriguez (06:46):
When did you kind of make that connection, Kenneth, that this should be a little bit more interesting that I could connect sneaker law with the law, with what I got my degree in, and I'm going to pursue that?
Kenneth Anand (06:58):
I mean, I was doing it in my practice here and there. I was representing interesting clients that were in the sneaker space, but it wasn't until I read Jared's articles, which he talked about, and then I was like, oh, here's somebody who's really talking about his love for sneakers and fusing it with the law. And then we got together, we linked up and we started talking about it together. And I think at that moment things changed drastically for us and we knew that we had a shared passion that we wanted to get out into the world, and it was at that moment that we started concepting sneaker law, and I think neither of us really was articulating it at the time, but we both knew that our experiences with law school was not the way we felt about the practice of law and what was going on in the real world, and we wanted to get that out. We wanted to show people that there are these interesting cases and they're very legally substantive and they're very educational, but they don't have to suck.
Chay Rodriguez (07:56):
Right. We talked a little bit about Jared and his internship at Complex, but Kenneth, I know prior to a lot of this you were kind of dabbling in employment law. What forced you to make the pivot to pursue maybe not just up and down black and white employment law, but something that has to tie in with the culture and still dealing with what you just pointed to real world issues and things that are happening in the real world and your practice, but just from a cultural standpoint of street wear and sneakers?
Kenneth Anand (08:29):
Yeah. Well, I mean out of law school, obviously I wasn't throwing myself into streetwear and sneakers. I had to get a job and I had to get a job at any law firm that would pay me and help me pay off my loans. So I started in a very traditional legal career as a litigator and as an advice and counsel practitioner and employment law. And I loved it because it was a very human area of the law. And later on when I would go in-house to my first company, Yeezy, I would use that a lot. It was very helpful to me, but it wasn't until I really started my own practice and started bringing in my own clients that I was able to dictate the types of work that I would be doing and the people that I'd be working with, the types of work that I would choose.
(09:10):
And a lot of it was just because of people that I knew that were my friends. So I think you'll hear this theme throughout the discussion today that Jared and I are lawyers, but it's really the people that we were before we got to law school and the networks that we had and the things that we were interested in that make us special and actually that unlocked all the things that were great at today. It's not actually the law, the law, anybody can be a lawyer, but what makes Jared and I special is that we took our passions and we fused it with the law. We'll
Todd Berger (09:40):
Be right back after this
Chay Rodriguez (09:49):
I think. And Manny, tell me if you agree, Kenneth, you pointed to what makes the two of you special. Jared, hearing that you were an intern at Complex and you even tried to take advantage of that to also slide an article into some sort of publication and kind of deviate away from the traditional internship work that a legal intern has. I think that makes you very special because I probably would've agonized over trying to do that for at least a month. By the time I would've asked, the internship probably would've been over, and I hear all the time, closed mouths don't get fed. So how did you go about making that transition and kind of playing with, okay, yes, I'm going to show you that I can be a really good intern and should the opportunity arise, I can be an asset to your legal department and it's not a distraction that I also want to contribute this content here as well?
Jared Goldstein (10:40):
Yeah, it's a great question. I knew the second I started at Complex, I needed to immerse myself in everything. That was a very unique situation because I wasn't just an intern. I knew more about complex than a lot of the employees at the time. I just knew their history. I know the culture, I know sneakers, I know hip hop, I know street wear, so obviously I didn't want to come off too strong, but I made sure that I got my stuff done, but I would stay after hours. I would make relationships with people there, with coworkers and just did whatever I could to get my foot in the door. And it wasn't just the articles. I even pitched a show idea that went really far. It ended up going to different networks and never got picked up unfortunately. But I didn't just look at it as a legal internship.
(11:28):
I looked at it as a gateway to my career and building a network, and that's very important. Networking is so key. It's not you can be the greatest attorney in the world or the greatest intern in the world, but if you don't have a good network, you may not get anywhere. So I really took advantage and without complex, my career would be a lot different and I wanted to work at Complex after graduating, and that was the plan. There was a big m and a deal that happened and that kind of shot it to pieces, but it was part of the greater purpose. The people I met, the relationships that I made there brought me onto the path that I'm on today. So it's very important just to immerse yourself, do whatever they ask you to do, make those relationships and make these internships meaningful. The most important.
Manny Fernandez (12:14):
Yeah, I think I definitely agree with Chay. The impression I'm getting from both of you guys here is that apart from being really tenacious individuals, you guys have kind of had a vision and you've been able to execute it, and that takes a lot of forward thinking and it takes a lot of outside of the box thinking. It takes being able to look beyond, I guess just law school and grades. As someone who was in SBA or student orgs or just a strong networker, how much of that part of your personality do you think you can attribute to your success and really selling and advertising sneaker law and all of the other things that you've done that connected to the book? What do you think?
Kenneth Anand (12:54):
Yeah, that's a great question. I would say everything. I think my personality is what has really helped me in my career where perhaps my grades, I'll just be blunt. I was not the top of the class and I was still able to find opportunities. I was still able to convince employers that I was capable. I was still able to do good work and argue for my clients. I've argued before federal court judges, courts of appeals, and that's a skillset that many lawyers have that are not necessarily defined by grades. And then the SBA thing, I knew when I was in law school as the first lawyer in my family that I didn't have anybody that I knew that was a lawyer in my network. So where better a place to start than your classmates who eventually are all going to become lawyers? I had this long-term vision where it was like, all right, well, you guys aren't lawyers now, but eventually we're all going to be out there doing something.
(13:52):
And today, now several years out of law school, or should I say decades, the people I went to law school with are all doing amazing things. They're partners of big law, they started their own law firms, they're general counsels of companies, they run companies. And so they all remember me as that guy who was not competitive that reached out to everybody that wanted to know how. They were doing that through parties in the courtyard with kegs and pizzas and just saw a greater purpose and wanted to build community. And that's what we're doing with Sneaker law. A lot of what we put our energy into is building a community around people that see a goal through law that's bigger than just being competitive and getting good grades and trying to race to the top of the pile.
Jared Goldstein (14:41):
Yeah, I would say that for law students, grades are definitely not everything. I mean, if you want to be top 10%, go to the big law firm, then that's something else. But obviously that's for 10% of the population and the student base. Otherwise, grades are not everything. And if you would've asked Kenneth and I when we were law students, or if you would've told us that we would be professors one day, we wouldn't have believed you. And we are and we weren't in the top of our classes and now we get the grade exams. It's crazy. You never know how things work out, but for me personally, I was more focused on, I mean, my grades were fine. They weren't amazing, but they were fine. I was more focused on the experience, like we said, the networking. I was out at shows, hip hop shows, networking behind the scenes. I was at fashion shows and now I have tons of clients because of that. I was hustling during law school, and that's something law school doesn't teach you. They don't teach you how to hustle, they don't teach you how to get down to it, and that's what a lot of lawyers have to do to make it. So I wouldn't just focus on the grades. Again, they're important, but focus on the other things as well. Meet people, get out there, gain those skills that's going to be the most useful as you go through your careers.
Manny Fernandez (15:52):
Yeah, what I was going to mention is not even just the power of networking, but something beautiful can always be created when two people have the same interests and there's a chemistry to that, and it also speaks to being able to bring your more authentic self.
Kenneth Anand (16:07):
Yeah, I think authenticity is so important, and I think sometimes as lawyers, it's really hard to find an authentic voice or feel authentic when from the moment you arrive in law school, you're told to dress a certain way, talk a certain way, think a certain way, right a certain way, and it may not be who you are, and that's okay. Eventually you can find your own voice if you stay true to who you are. And it doesn't mean that you're not going to go to a law firm and be asked to dress in a suit or be asked to work on things that maybe don't speak to you, your authenticity. It's okay, get your experience, but then find ways to branch out. Jared and I have very flourishing and exciting careers because we've stayed true to who we are even in the law.
Chay Rodriguez (16:48):
What's the mission that you two really connected on and what made Volume one of Sneaker law, the book necessary to the mission that you all started off with in that coffee shop that day?
Jared Goldstein (17:01):
So we wanted to create just an encyclopedia for the sneaker industry. I don't know if you ever read all You Need to Know about the Music Business by Donald Passman. So that book is the bible for the music industry. So whether you're an artist, you're a manager, you're a lawyer, you're a business manager, whoever you are, you're an agent, whoever you are in the musical ecosystem, you go to that book, you have something that whatever you need to learn, it's there. So it can help you navigate through the industry. So there was a void in the sneaker industry for that. So what if you're a designer? What if you're a manufacturer, a distributor, an entrepreneur, a store owner, an attorney, a marketer, whatever your positioning is in the industry? We wanted to create a guide that helps you navigate to the sneaker industry and what we set out to do with Sneaker Law.
(17:51):
We began concepting in I think about 20 16, 20 17, and we had a really beastly outline. It was great, and it just stayed as an outline for a while. We were telling people we were writing a book, but we only had a half a chapter done. Then COVID COVID hit and Kenneth and I sat down virtually and we were like, if we don't get this book done now, we're never getting it done. So that kind of lit a fire under us, and we were able to finish V one, which launched in September of 2021. We did a pre-order prior to that. The reception was incredible because we were just writing, we didn't know where it was going to go. We wrote it for ourselves as our passion project. We thought it should be existed in the world. And then academia started picking it up. Professors started reaching out, sneakerhead started reaching out stores started reaching out. We ended up in Kth and Nordstrom and Bodega Concepts, sneaker stores that we've been shopping at forever and that we're big fans of. So it just caught the world and the industry by storm. And then we launched V two in September of last year, and we'll get more into V two. But yeah, that's kind the history.
Chay Rodriguez (19:04):
Yeah, I definitely saw the Nordstrom listing and I was like, Ooh, now I'm about to put it right next to all the smoke book. I was like a little, that'd be real cool. I have to tell you guys, when Todd first brought the concept to us initially, all I kept thinking about was the Phil Knight book Shoe Dog, and I kept thinking like, wow, if this is kind of like a step-by-step or a guide or just reading the summary, I was just like, people can take the mystery out of just reading maybe the story of how one person did it so many years ago, and instead of trying to take that and couple it with the internet, if they just were to get this one book, I'm thinking of my little cousins who will probably cringe walking by a law school, but want to create the next best thing that everybody is wearing or want to invest what they have from working into the next best cultural thing. This can make streetwear and what we engage in accessible to them. Kenneth, is that something that you kind of thought when you were going through this mission and as you guys were building this beastly outline before you really got into writing, is that something that motivated you to continue on with the mission of the book?
Kenneth Anand (20:19):
That was entirely the motivation. That was the only goal was to get it to those kids who were interested in sneakers and the business, but didn't know where to turn on how to be an entrepreneur or how to understand law or these complex business topics. We tried to distill all those into easily digestible chapters that were filled with slang and cultural references and just things that you would rock with. We didn't even anticipate it going to schools. In fact, when we got our first outreach, we were like, what? The first call was Harvard Law School, and they were like, Hey, we would love to teach this in our fashion law lab. And we were like, are you sure you have the right people number? And then when we got there, because this was all new for Jared, and when we got there, we were like, yo, this is so necessary in schools, and in fact, they're fending for it.
(21:12):
They need it more than anyone because the stuff they're teaching just isn't that exciting. And that was the moment of realization for us. Jared and I left Harvard that day and we were on a clout. You couldn't even tell us anything. It was just like, man, we really, now we know what we did this for because students were coming up to us and saying that it was the best class they've taken at Harvard, that it was the coolest book they've ever seen, that it was the most relatable. There were people in the audience that came up to us and said, I've never thought that law could be this interesting. And we were like, yo, this is nuts. We were just thinking this before, and when you talk about your cousins, they might be turned off if they heard it was a law book, they might be turned off if they heard it was written for law schools.
(21:57):
And so we tried very hard not to have that be the way we led. It was just a book. It was a book, it was whatever it is to anybody. It can be a coffee table book if you don't even want to read the words, but if you really want to dig into it, it can be sort of the anthem to your entrepreneurship. And we've had people tell us, this book changed my life. I'm now a business owner. I'm now in the sneaker game, or I'm just a better lawyer because of it. And that's crazy. And so it was very hard for us to define the box because this whole time we've been trying to get out of it. You know what I'm saying? And that's what we did
Manny Fernandez (22:34):
Well, did you folks face any kind of skepticism or pushback or anything like that? I'm sure, well, there's always negativity when you're trying to push something new, but can you tell us a little bit about any kind of the skepticism you might've faced from traditional legal circles in particular when launching sneaker law?
Kenneth Anand (22:53):
I mean, I think the good news about it is that Jared and I just put our heads down and we were building this together without talking about it too much. We would share with people that we were writing a book from time to time, and they might laugh or they might scoff or say, okay, whatever. But we believed in it so much ourselves that we pushed it through to completion and it got out there. And then when it got out there, we still have people shutting the door on us. We still have people that don't understand what it is. If they don't get it, it's not for them. Then we keep moving because there are people that get it, and there's a lot of people that need this and have embraced it. So you have to just be sort of thick skinned and know that your product is not for everybody.
(23:35):
Not everybody's going to understand it. Not everybody's going to want it. Some people are going to say, oh, that's expensive for a book. Other people are going to say it's cheap. You can't dictate it. You have to keep doing what you're doing and believe in it, which is hard. And that's why having somebody to do it with is always helpful. There's some times when I'm just feeling doubtful and I'll hit up Jared and I'll be like, yo, are we doing this the right way? And he'll be like, yeah, I think so. Or he might share and he might say, I don't know man, let's talk about it. But your ultimate goal, you have to be so head down and you have to drive a freight train through a wall in order to get your product out there. And that's what we were lucky enough to do. And so in some ways, having the pandemic just close the walls down and make life very simple and small for us was helpful. And I often say this to Jared that if we knew where our book would end up, we might've never finished because we would've been too nervous about how we'd be judged by all these people that have embraced it. And that's crazy because sometimes you miss the miracle before it happens because you talk yourself out of it. And we're just lucky that we didn't do that.
Manny Fernandez (24:44):
So the law is the perfect mechanism through contract drafting and other kinds of skills that we are learning right now in law school. It's the perfect mechanism to empower creativity and empower creators and future innovators. But we've talked on this podcast before about how it can also be a hindrance and the law can serve as a gatekeeper. So from y'all's perspective, how do you see legal literacy impacting people, like independent designers and artists in today's market? How important is it? And I guess part of that I should also ask, what are some common legal traps that you guys see young creators fall into and how could they avoid them?
Jared Goldstein (25:30):
Yeah, it's a huge issue and we tell creators this all the time, and our students who are creators are going to be working with creators. The importance of having an attorney who works in your industry is just, we can't stress it enough. We've seen so many times creators get taken advantage of, here's a contract sign on the dotted line. You don't know where you're signing. And it's not just getting an attorney. The attorneys working many different industries, as you guys know, knowing an attorney who knows your business because there's so many different nuances. If you're doing a fashion or a sneaker deal, you need somebody who works in that industry or otherwise they may gloss over something or give you the wrong advice. So it's just so important to get an attorney to work with you and to have just some service level knowledge. And that's what we do with Sneaker Law. We mentioned Parson School Design. Every outgoing senior has to take the business regulations course, which uses sneaker law is the required textbook. And that's just incredible for us because these designers, these creators are learning and they're reading this content and they know about it. They have the book to reference later on in their careers, and it's going to help protect them and help empower them as they go through their careers. So it's very important, something that we stress all the time.
Kenneth Anand (26:47):
And just to your other point about whether law is a helper or a hindrance, I think more and more creatives would benefit from learning at least a modicum of the law, like how to protect your creations through intellectual property. And it's not to say that they should design differently, but they should design more intentionally with their own rights and protections in mind. Because I've seen so many people get taken advantage of because they don't take into account the things that they can protect, and then somebody steals their idea and before you know it, someone else is making money off of their amazing ideas. And it's like it can't hurt to be more empowered and know these topics. You can only be stronger as a business person, as a creator. So we try to teach it, and that's why we're so passionate about both creatives and lawyers and people learning both sides of things.
(27:49):
If you're a lawyer, you should understand how your client thinks, right? You should understand how they create and why what they make is important. So many lawyers just know the law and then they meet a creative and they're like, I don't understand this person. I don't understand the way you want a lawyer like that. No, you want somebody that's passionate about what you're doing and compassionate about your mission. So Jared and I feel very strongly about that, and our clients benefit from the way we think in that way. So if more lawyers would like that, they would be more effective.
Manny Fernandez (28:22):
And kind of, I guess how Jared said, not all industries are created equally. Not all forms of trademark law is the same. All forms of copyright is the same. And so an attorney who's really great at copyright law when it pertains to, I don't know, writing books might not be the right attorney for a musical artist or for a designer or for someone who's making shoes. So yeah, it goes back to the authenticity. You do want an attorney who's not just an empty suit. You do want an attorney that knows your industry really well because that attorney is going to best serve you and is going to best advise you. It's the old mantra in the law that it's easier to prevent messes than it is to clean them up. So an attorney who knows how the creative process works and can be there to advise you and help you on that is actually something I had never thought about this before, but it's actually something, a huge cheat code. It's a really interesting way of looking at the law that you've tapped into.
Kenneth Anand (29:26):
You wouldn't see an ear, nose and throat doctor if you had back pain.
Manny Fernandez (29:30):
That's exactly right. But
Kenneth Anand (29:31):
They're both doctors.
Manny Fernandez (29:33):
Absolutely.
Chay Rodriguez (29:34):
And something we talked about prior to just starting recording, and this makes me think about how you two were law school students who said classes were cool, grades are all right. But classes could have been a little bit more interesting. As law school students, I think we look at our professors and we're kind of like, we know that you have sat here before and you have been bored to tears like we are today. How is it that you are perpetuating the same tragedy over and over semester after semester? And grading me on it, but also wondering what got you here? What got you here standing in front of me, teaching in front of me? What got you through your last part of your formal part of your law career when you decided that you wanted to practice and you were excited about it, and now you've kind of pivoted into a different direction to shape young minds that are going to go into the field instead? I think as law students, we hear stories like yours and we can see from just your entire career thus far that you guys are now adjunct professors. You have been able to create a product your authors not even been able to create. You're still creating a product, you're still pushing other products. With volume two, you're also still advising and practicing to a certain capacity. Is this full body of work that you have in having your hand kind of in these different pots, does it keep the law fresh for you?
Kenneth Anand (31:05):
Yes, absolutely. I dunno, I talked to Jared about this a lot, and it's like we're kind of just paving the road as we go, and it's sometimes a little bit anxiety inducing. We don't really know where this is going to go, but we know we're doing the right thing and we've seen the positive results. Like Jared said earlier, if you would've asked us several years ago if we would've been professors and I've changed the game in terms of legal textbooks and all these things, we probably would've said no. But that's kind of the exciting thing. We don't know where it goes. And I have to say, so many lawyers out there will tell you, oh, don't go to law school. I'm miserable, so on and so forth. That's their problem. They can do what they want with their own career. What we've chosen to do has been very exciting and very rewarding, and we're having the time of our lives because we've chosen to mold it in a way that was exciting for us. So don't let people sort of misguide you into saying that legal careers aren't rewarding. We've had so much fun just since the time that we published this book, and even when we were writing it, we were having fun. And then our practices are very rewarding in themselves. We both have very interesting clients, so we're very proud of what we've created and we're excited to see where it goes, and we got to keep that energy and that passion. Otherwise we just turn into one of those grumpy lawyers.
Manny Fernandez (32:34):
And there's already, God knows, there's already plenty of those out there.
Kenneth Anand (32:37):
Plenty.
Jared Goldstein (32:38):
You don't want to be one of them.
Manny Fernandez (32:39):
Absolutely not. So you guys have already given us so much wisdom, some parting words for our audience. Do you have any advice for any of the future legal disruptors that are listening out there, generalized advice, and I guess more particularly some advice on how to balance being innovative with still building solid legal fundamentals?
Jared Goldstein (33:02):
I would say on brand with what we've been talking about, follow what you're passionate about. There's going to be lots of attorneys who tell you what you can or can't do, or there's a traditional way to practice law. If you see something and you envision something, just go for it. The worst thing that can happen is you fail. And the beauty of a legal career and a legal background being an attorney is there's so many different avenues. There's so many things you can do. You can practice law, you can be a business person, you can be a designer. We know tons of sneaker designers who went to law school. There's just so many different avenues, and that's the beauty of being an attorney. And I don't think that gets stressed enough. There's not just a prototypical lane that you go through. No, there's different ways you can spin it.
(33:51):
So do what you're passionate about and have fun. And if you're not having fun, be honest with yourself and change that. It's never too late. We've seen legal professionals do career pivots later on in life and they've never been happier. So I would say always go with what you're passionate about and also don't get bogged down. I know it's hard being in law school. Sometimes you think grades are everything, and if you don't do this paper this way, it's going to be the end of the world. We don't remember Kenneth and I don't remember specific exams and specific papers or whatever. We just, you get through it and life goes on, it'll all be fine. It'll all be good. Just be optimistic and don't get down on yourself. Just keep pushing through and you'll get there.
Kenneth Anand (34:40):
I would just add that further, what I said earlier, don't let law school dim the light that you had before you arrived. It has a tendency of doing that. It can spark a lot of other lights. Like you might not have been such a great writer. You might not have been so good at oral advocacy. There are many things that you can gain from going through the law school process, but one thing that I've seen happen in a lot of students and myself included, is that it would douse the light that makes you special, your own individual traits, the things that are your superpowers, whether it's your networking or your social skills or your love for hip hop or your love for sneakers or whatever it is that's special about you. You could be really into theater or graphic design. Those things will be what sets you apart later on as you realize that you're entering a world where everybody's a lawyer, you're surrounded by lawyers, what sets you apart?
(35:38):
And Jared and I found ways to set ourselves apart. So if we can do it, it's possible for anyone. And it doesn't mean you have to write a book, but you got to find your own space and your own voice. And hopefully you can use what we've taught as the inspiration for that, because not everybody has to love sneakers, but you can find yourself in between the two covers of our book and find a way to get your own sort of character and your own personality out there so that you can be the best lawyer you can be. We'll
Todd Berger (36:09):
Be right back. So Manny Chay, what were your big takeaways from our conversation about sneaker law with Kenneth and Jared?
Manny Fernandez (36:23):
My big takeaway was just it was so uplifting to talk to Kenneth and Jared because they, they took the law and they made it their own in all of the ways that are truly meaningful. So they both have really great, successful careers doing exactly what they love. They married their passion to the law, which is something that I think has been kind of a reoccurring theme this season for us. And again, like I mentioned earlier, they really emphasize the importance of staying authentic to yourself. I think it's very, very easy sometimes in our career to feel like we have to be empty suits and we have to fall into this cookie cutter form of what we think a lawyer is. And I think that's not true at all. I think Kenneth and Jared are the perfect examples of it. And they are sort of taking the world by storm, not just in their own niche subject of sneaker law specifically, but just in a broader context like revolutionizing legal education really, which I think was super inspiring. So this was an interview that I truly loved, got to say,
Chay Rodriguez (37:31):
I think similar to what I said in the interview or exactly like what I said in the interview, closed mouths don't get fed. Had someone not thought while they were doing an internship, let me also see if I could push the boundaries and write an article for this outlet. And had someone not thought, let me use LinkedIn to connect with someone to tap in, then we wouldn't have the kind of thing, Jared, that we know today, these heads of sneaker law, these heads of this movement, and these two examples who are able to say, not only do we still practice in our own way, but we also teach, and we're also entrepreneurs and we're authors. And if you really think about it, they have a whole product that they sell and they're doing it independently, self-publishing, all of that. So I just think closed mouths don't get fed. And when you don't act and move when you're inspired to, it could lead to a lot of suppressed dreams or just nothing coming to fruition at all. So I think that was really cool.
Manny Fernandez (38:34):
And I got to, even in our last episode, same thing, our last guest, somebody who was a trailblazer, a truly exceptional attorney, but carved her own path. And so if there's something our dear listeners should take from this, it's don't be scared to carve your own path. Don't be scared to shoot out LinkedIn invites. Don't be scared to ask. The worst thing someone can say is no. But I mean, I think so many of the guests that we've had on this season are emblematic of that and emblematic of how the law can be so much more than just reading textbooks. Yeah,
Chay Rodriguez (39:08):
No, I agree.
Todd Berger (39:09):
Well, speaking of textbooks, but what I would say is Kenneth and Jared have created basically a textbook, they call it sneaker law, and it focuses on a lot of different aspects of how the law works, like business associations are in there, and entrepreneurship law and copyright and trademark, and a whole range of different law involved in what we might consider sneaker law, generally from the law, connects to different aspects of the arts, connects to different aspects of business. As somebody who writes two textbooks, I can assure you that their textbook is much cooler. So it is actually the rare law school textbook that you're like, this is a textbook, but it's also awesome On a coffee table,
Manny Fernandez (39:56):
You mean your textbook doesn't have a shoelace for a bookmark? That's a
Todd Berger (40:00):
Problem. It has no pictures of sneakers. And in a way, by the way, that's totally relevant and germane to what they're trying to accomplish. So it is really cool. So for any of you out there who are interested in sneaker law, it is a really cool book that isn't just something you bury in your office. It's like I'm looking at Manny right now who's in the law library at the University of New Hampshire Law School. That is what law school books look like. This is a law school textbook. It doesn't look like any of those books. It is actually really fun and cool. What I think that their book shows me just the creation of their book, but just one of my takeaways from it you guys touched on a little bit is just the law doesn't have to be a space where you become a lawyer and then you're not creative any longer.
(40:48):
And we've talked about this in some earlier episodes that go back to even last season about making sure to be creative in the law. And we think about that sometimes in terms of creative lawyering process and what your litigation strategy might be or the arguments that you create. But there's other aspects of creativity on the law. And you don't have to just decide, well, I have this passion for something, but it falls outside of torts or contracts or criminal defense, and so I can't pursue it because that's not what lawyers do. They're really passionate, they're really creative people, and they found the intersection of the law in this form of artistic creativity, and they created something new. And you touched on it, Manny, the law continues to evolve. We read the same cases like Paul's graph, which is from wherever you read it at every law school in the country, and take your criminal procedure classes. A lot of those cases date back to the forties or fifties or sixties, but the law continues to evolve. And you go from Paul's graph to sneaker law, and here we are. So be creative, recognize the law continues to grow and evolve and don't give up on your passions because there's a place for you. Chay, some people have been with you on the podcast for two years, so tell us you are graduating.
Chay Rodriguez (42:04):
I am graduating the credit.
Todd Berger (42:06):
Tell us what isn't. It
Chay Rodriguez (42:07):
Have credited friends and the grades are in and they're letting me out the building. I'm very excited.
Todd Berger (42:14):
Tell us what is next for Shea Rodriguez.
Chay Rodriguez (42:17):
I am. So a lot of you may or may not know I'm in Atlanta, so I will be relocating to New York City and I'm very excited about that and pursuing my legal career there in the next kind of, I guess stage and phase of my life post law school. So I'm really excited.
Todd Berger (42:37):
And so what do you think that's going to look like? What kind of law do you want to practice? What do you want to do?
Chay Rodriguez (42:42):
I don't want to jinx it, but I hope to not leave the company that I'm currently at. And yeah, I just hope the move is enough change in transition for me. So I'm hoping that I could stay there and grow. And if not, that's fine too. Yeah, I'll maybe have me back, Todd, tell the next host that I need to come back and I can give an update on life for 15 minutes.
Todd Berger (43:10):
That's cool. And we'd love to have you back for sure. Anytime. Shea and Manny, you are not graduating.
Manny Fernandez (43:17):
I'm not. But unfortunately, the era of Shea and Manny is coming to its sunset, and it's a great one. I will venture to say it's been a very, very meaningful, impactful time in my own life. And so honestly, I echo all of Jay's feelings. It's been great. We've had a lot of fun, learned a lot. But yeah, no, I won't be coming on for the next season. You'll have a full lineup of new hosts and Todd, Todd will be here, but a full lineup of new student hosts for my thrill year. I'm going to my last year of law school, and I also don't want to jinx it like Shea, but I will now be doing an externship that I'm very excited about, and I'm really hoping that I could devote my time more fully to doing work for this firm that I'm hoping I can stay on with. And so with that, my schedule gets tighter and tighter. And so I will be spending more of my three L year, I guess, studying for the bar and doing other things. But yeah, I will certainly be missing this experience this time that I've had these memories and certainly all of you guys the most.
Todd Berger (44:35):
Absolutely. Well, it's been a great season with both of you and Chay been great two years co-hosting with you and totally get it, Mandy. I mean, I think that it's important for people to, when you get a lot going on ridden, you got the rest of your career ahead of you to prioritize what makes the most sense. And your future career may involve some podcasting, but it's definitely going to involve lawyering. So it makes a lot of sense to focus on that. And of course you will be missed, but it's been a great experience having you here for sure.
Chay Rodriguez (45:14):
And I think it shows even to our audience because they say it all the time, like in Bar prep, you need to focus. There's some things that you need to trim out, even though for some people it's like a 10 to six week window of that. I think you're leading by example, Manny. There's just certain things that you want to accomplish and you know that you have set up for yourself in your three L year, and certain things are going to have to fall to the wayside in order to accomplish that. So I commend you and wish you all the luck. I think you are going to do just fine. You won't even need my luck.
Manny Fernandez (45:48):
Well, thank you both so much. And yeah, I guess one quick final lesson from me personally, I guess to our listeners is just that I would never want to do this amazing show a disservice by not dedicating the amount of time that it deserves. And law school, it's so easy to end up spinning so many plates and there's going to be so many amazing opportunities, all of which you will probably value a ton. But you have to realize that there's only so many hours in the day and there's only so much that you can do. And again, it would be an immense disservice for me to take on so many things at once and then not give the show the time and the credit that it needs. So one last practical tip for everybody listening out there.
Todd Berger (46:32):
Well, it's funny. It does feel a lot, I guess it's a part of my day job, maybe Bryce, when the really fun parts of my day job. But there's many times I talk to students and then you know that they're leaving. But you'll still be there. But this is a good place to still be. So again, it was terrific to work with both of you, you both tremendous success and whatever comes next. Sort of like Chay said, I know you all need my good luck. You both are awesome. Going to do tremendously well, and I'll be back here next season. There'll be two new hosts, but really looking forward to it more really fascinating, interesting discussions for current law students and maybe those who've been out a few years who still stay connected to the A law student podcast. So more great things ahead, I think for both Shea and Manny and the a, a law student podcast.
Chay Rodriguez (47:27):
Yeah, and just one last thing, you guys definitely, if you see the call to action to apply as a host, you should. This is an amazing platform. But Todd, you've also served as an amazing mentor. Even your stories from you practicing, but also sharing with us your father and just being able to have that example as well. And just a lot of your practical advice that I think is not only we laugh rooted in a sort of reality that acts to level set, but also it's coming from a place of, hey, you can make a plan and you can accomplish something and you can do this. And as long as you know it and it is realistic to your skillset, you can move forward in any way that you feel that you want to move forward and practice and really impact the law. So I've appreciated being able to glean your advice, not being one of your students technically, I guess I don't pay Syracuse tuition, but being able to sit with you once a month, twice a month has been amazing.
Todd Berger (48:35):
Truly has really appreciate it. And thank you, Manny, and think you guys have been awesome. And there'll be some next hosts. I'm sure they, they'll be great too, but there'll never be another Shane. Manny, thanks again to our guest, Jared Goldstein and Kenneth Anon for joining us today. Be sure to head to sneaker law.com to learn more about their work and an extra special thanks to our two host, Chay and Manny for all their work making this show what it is today. If you'd like to help continue their mission as one of our new hosts of the A Lawsuit podcast, which means you get to work with me, check out the description of this episode to find a link to apply. If you're looking for even more content curated just for you, head over to the a a Lawsuit division website and become a member.