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The Try Tank Podcast is about innovation and the church
Lorenzo Lebrija (00:15)
Hey everyone, it's Father Lorenzo Lebrija Today on the Tri-Tank Podcast, I'm joined by Margaret Marcuson, pastor, clergy, coach, and author of Sustainable Ministry, How to Lead and Nap. talk about why so many church leaders over function.
how to set healthy boundaries without abandoning your calling, and why caring for yourself is actually not a selfish act. It is essential to faithful ministry. If you've ever felt responsible for saving the church, or is that just me? This conversation is for you. Margaret Markerson helps clergy get lighter and less burdened by their ministries so they can have more influence with less stress.
She works with leaders from over 20 denominations across North America as a teacher and coach. She is the author previously of Leaders Who Last in 2009, Money and Your Ministry in 2014. She has taught since 1999 in Leadership in Ministry, a family systems workshop for clergy. An American Baptist minister, she served as pastor at First Baptist Church in Gardner, Massachusetts for 13 years.
She lives in Portland, Oregon, where she sings in two choirs. And of course you can check out her new book, which we're talking about today, Sustainable Ministry, How to Lead and When to Nap, available wherever books are sold. And now let's get on to the podcast.
Lorenzo Lebrija (01:52)
Margaret, welcome to the Tri-Tank podcast.
Margaret Marcuson (01:56)
great to be here, thanks.
Lorenzo Lebrija (01:57)
I'm so glad that you're with us. You know, it's funny when I was looking over your book, I just love the fact that, well, first of all, it's addressing an issue that is very much a conversation we need to have in the church, which is about, you know, sort of burning out. And we can, I can tell you about how many people that have sort of left ministry because of that. more than even outside of that, I just love the fact that the title of your book is such a
sustainable ministry, how to lead and went to nap. I'm a napper. So you're like talking my language that alone was like, this is for me. If someone if you were at a cocktail reception and someone says, Hey, so you wrote a book, tell me tell me what's it about.
Margaret Marcuson (02:41)
So yeah, so what would I say? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I would say it is to help clergy find a way to make space in their lives, to continue to do their work, but make room for themselves. Many clergy, they're so focused on the work and the ministry that they lose sight of themselves.
Lorenzo Lebrija (02:43)
Yeah, yeah, what would be your answer?
Did you see this and thus it cost you like, someone needs to have a conversation with these clergy people because they're not having it themselves.
Margaret Marcuson (03:15)
Well, I experienced it myself as a parish pastor when I realized that I was just carrying the burden of the church on my shoulders and it wasn't working for me. So I found a bit of a new way to be in ministry without losing myself.
Lorenzo Lebrija (03:35)
So, and let's talk a little bit about modern day ministry. It doesn't take, you don't have to be sort of in this industry or in the know to see that the numbers have gone down, which means in the Episcopal Church alone, have 56 % of the jobs are less than full-time right now, which means that we have more work on, every time I hear a less than full-time job, what I take that to mean, it's a less than full-time salary.
But the expectation is still that you're going to be an over-functioning clergy person that will do everything. And so when you see the numbers that are going down, right, so there's that fear of like, my God, what's happening to the church too, the work still needs to get done. you might be juggling several cures if you have several congregations that you've cobbled together into a full-time job, or you might be bivocational or taking on a job elsewhere.
Am I describing the lay of the land pretty accurately there as you saw it?
Margaret Marcuson (04:33)
That
is the lay of the land. And there are two pressures that clergy experience. One is the internal pressure. I've got to make this work. I'm responsible for the future of this congregation. And the external pressure of people who, particularly if a congregation has gone from full-time to less than full-time, they still want the same ministry.
Lorenzo Lebrija (04:55)
And so what can leaders do to make a difference in a context for ministry that is getting harder? I mean, it's tough out there.
Margaret Marcuson (05:03)
It's tough out there. Yes, and I believe it's critical for clergy, everyone in ministry, to be clear about their own call. What are they called to do and what are they not called to do? And what they're not called to do is save the future of the church.
Lorenzo Lebrija (05:24)
That is, we've already had a savior. He did that 2000 years ago. Thank you very much. That job's taken. ⁓ So, I mean, I think this is one of those things, right? Which is we can get it in the brain. I understand it in my mind what you're saying, but then you turn around and you see your congregation, you see your flock. And that tears at you because it is a vocation. You're called to them. You're called to be with them.
Margaret Marcuson (05:27)
Yeah, exactly. It's been done. Yes. Yes, that is. Yes.
Lorenzo Lebrija (05:54)
How does one do that? How does one actually get to the point where you can self differentiate in that setting, if you will?
Margaret Marcuson (06:03)
Well, this is not an overnight process. Darn it. I always say I'm on the lifetime plan. I was born practically born to over function. so if I step. Yes, most clergy would be yes. And we can talk a little more about that later. ⁓ But to be able to tolerate within yourself.
Lorenzo Lebrija (06:06)
Darn it.
Ha ha ha.
I think most clergy would be.
Margaret Marcuson (06:30)
And really, it's a spiritual question, too, to trust God with the future of the church and this church. It is not up to you. And to have some kind of spiritual practice that enables you to to let go a bit more and to be able to tolerate people's disappointment and their grief, really. I think there's some compassion in it for the people like this church is not may not be what it was.
And they grieve that.
Lorenzo Lebrija (07:01)
And so, wow.
Yeah, okay, you just so much to unpack there and what you just said, because first of all, like what what would what might like a spiritual practice of that look like for me to be able to to say, I've done what I can, and I don't need to beat myself up for it. But on the other hand, you also just mentioned that the church is changing. And so many of us were trained by seminary sort of for the church that was
and not so much for the church that is, and it's continuing to evolve into a different church. So let's talk about that for a little bit, because I think this leads right into the over-functioning part. What can people in seminary, right? Tri-Tank Zumba is part of Virginia Theological Seminary. If you were talking to the faculty or to the administration at VTS or at GTS or any other seminary, Swani,
What would you say? What would you say to them when you're when you're putting new leaders out into the world? Not just ordained now, because there are also lay leaders who are going through this. And I'm sure that it's only a matter of time before we're talking about lay leaders over functioning and burning out as well.
Margaret Marcuson (08:11)
Well, yes,
and it's not only a matter of time, it's happening.
Lorenzo Lebrija (08:15)
It's here.
So what would you say to them, to those that are training those two, to do this, do more of this, them? it just, let's go back to kindergarten and make sure we have nap time in the afternoon? mean, how do we instill that as a part of that, that it's okay?
Margaret Marcuson (08:30)
The more that...
we can help clergy and seminarians grow up emotionally and spiritually, the better off they will be in the congregation. So there's a content of ministry. There's all the biblical and theological studies. There's the preaching practice, the technique of ministry, but then there is your work on yourself. seminaries can't do all that work and some of it you can't even do till you get into it.
and say in the context to understand what the pressures that you face and to be able to learn how to ⁓ hold on to yourself. So I've been involved in a number of different clergy training programs, including leadership and ministry, which is based at Columbia Theological Seminary Presbyterian School, where clergy, they come back year after year.
Lorenzo Lebrija (09:24)
Mm.
Margaret Marcuson (09:29)
to think through their ministry. We use a family systems perspective and to help them bring case studies. It's kind of action reflection. I think that's the learning process, whether it's in seminary or beyond where you engage in ministry, you have someone to help you think through.
Lorenzo Lebrija (09:47)
And well,
that's good point, right? Because so many people in ministry, I was just talking to a friend yesterday who was telling me about just how lonely it is. Even if it's in a big city, doesn't necessarily mean that you're out in some rural part of Arkansas. You could be smack in the middle of New York City and still be lonely in this work that you're called to do. And that's perhaps taking more of you than it should.
Margaret Marcuson (10:11)
Yeah, that's right. And you need partners to help you outside the congregation to be able to help you keep your perspective. I still have a friend, we've been colleagues in ministry and close friends for over 30 years. And I still call her up and say, this is what's going on. She knows the whole story. And she can say, oh, that's not your responsibility. She just did that the other day.
Lorenzo Lebrija (10:16)
Yeah.
⁓ And again, that is, you use the term grow up, but it really is about self differentiating and in a family system sort of sort of way. But I love the fact that, you know, again, the title uses naps because why are naps important in your point? And how can people get them or maybe even just, you know, if someone's not a napper a day off? How do a movie?
Margaret Marcuson (10:56)
Yeah, a day off, yes.
Right. Well, this is the kind of work, no matter how much you're paid or how many hours you're contracted for, you could work all the time. So don't recommend that.
Lorenzo Lebrija (11:04)
Yes.
That doesn't work. That usually doesn't end well for for you or the congregation, by the way.
Margaret Marcuson (11:09)
It does not end well. That's right.
Yes, that's right. That's right. So I suggest people set an ending time for their day. It's a work expense to fill the time allotted. And so if you know you're going to end, I mean, if you have kids, got to meet the bus. So in a way, that's a gift because you have a time limit.
And so to be able to set time limits for yourself. So it's not always going to work out that way. But if you never have an ending time or if you never have a clear sense, this is what's most important today. Recognizing you may be interrupted. Doesn't always go as planned. But to set limits with yourself.
Lorenzo Lebrija (11:47)
Yeah.
I think there was a Pope John the 23rd, the old quote, at the end of the day, was like, he turned to in his prayers and was said to God, this is your church, I'm going to bed. I've done what I can.
Margaret Marcuson (12:04)
Yeah, right. Right. Right. I think that's such exactly
that's such a that's such a great prayer.
Lorenzo Lebrija (12:11)
So how does, for someone who might be listening, it's like, ooh, I think I may be over-functioning. What are some of the sort of factors or things that someone should be looking out for? If they want to begin sort of doing the reflection, action reflection right now, what should they be looking at to know that burnout might be not too far away?
Margaret Marcuson (12:31)
Well, this is quite a bit short of burnout, but I've learned from myself that if I feel resentful, I'm probably over-functioning.
Lorenzo Lebrija (12:37)
⁓ OK. And resemble towards the job or toward towards a situation.
Margaret Marcuson (12:43)
could be or yes or the people that are
Lorenzo Lebrija (12:46)
Hmm the proverbial mrs. Johnson that I that you know, yeah
Margaret Marcuson (12:49)
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, that's right. And the
thing about over-functioning is that it's reciprocal. So there's always someone who's over-functioning and someone who's under-functioning. There's this balance that gets going.
Lorenzo Lebrija (13:03)
So,
and doesn't that talk a little bit about the expectations that people have of their clergy, right? Because one of the worst things could be is if you happen to be coming in and you're a new rector somewhere, a new pre-summer, a new pastor somewhere that's following someone who wasn't over-functioning sort of just all 24 hours a day available, and you're like, no, you know what, I need to these limits, that can be very difficult for people to, in a way,
feel that they sort of feel like they're not meeting people's expectations of them.
Margaret Marcuson (13:36)
Yes, and they're not. So, well, there's external and internal. The internal is to work on your sense of, number one, your sense of guilt. Sometimes I say, if people are trying to step down their own over-functioning, I say, if you're feeling guilty, if you've made a principled decision to step back from something and you feel guilty, you're probably on the right track.
Lorenzo Lebrija (13:38)
So what can people do to sort of is it.
let's talk a little bit more about that. how do we deal with that guilt? Because I could imagine if you tell someone right now, go take a nap, they're going to be like, No, there's so much work to do that, that I just couldn't, in good conscience, go take a nap right now.
Margaret Marcuson (14:07)
So
Yeah.
If you can do some thinking in advance about, what is my purpose, my call at this time? Here are the commitments I'm making to myself and to others for this time. That kind of clarity upfront helps. And to be able to tolerate some disappointment in others. And...
Lorenzo Lebrija (14:37)
Got it?
Hmm.
Margaret Marcuson (14:47)
Clarify for yourself. If you're new, this is hard. as you get to know people, you have a sense here are the bases that have got to be covered. And I may need to do this task that I don't really want to do for this time, but I'm not going to do it for us.
And I'm gonna take my day off even though Father Jeff never took his day off.
Lorenzo Lebrija (15:06)
Hmm and and that does take because I suppose I don't know if this is sort of as equal as yin and yang But if you're over functioning, my guess is that in that system, there's some under functioning going on as well Right because you're picking up the flag from someone else
Margaret Marcuson (15:20)
Yeah, it is yin and yang. Yes, and
the basic rule is that under functioners do not step up until over functioners step down. That is the balance. Now, there is sometimes a gap. You step down, others don't necessarily step up. Not immediately.
Lorenzo Lebrija (15:33)
Okay, that's a good rule.
At least not immediately. There's going to be. Yeah.
Margaret Marcuson (15:46)
Yes, and
Lorenzo Lebrija (15:46)
Yeah.
Margaret Marcuson (15:46)
that gap is very difficult and people may be disappointed. ⁓
And I think in today's context, if there's been a chronic under over function or whether it's ⁓ the clergy or a lay leader who's done a ministry for a long time and they die or can't do it anymore, someone may not step up in the same way. there is a way in which we many churches can't do all the ministry they've done in the past. So it may not be that someone doesn't step up.
in the way that you did or for that particular thing.
Lorenzo Lebrija (16:23)
Ooh, and that's going to be tough. Especially I can imagine now I'm totally like outing myself as someone who would probably be, if I were still in parish ministry, I would continue to be over-functioning and a perfectionist. So not only is it that I'm over-functioning because there might be some under-functioning in the system, but I want it in such a way that even if they are stepping up, I'm like, they're not going to do it the same way that I would do it in the perfection of the way that I would do it.
Margaret Marcuson (16:24)
is tough. Yes.
Yes, yes, that's right. so I've been married for many, many years. And this is still true to a degree, but early in my marriage is I wanted him to do it and do it my way. So. Well, we were still married,
Lorenzo Lebrija (17:04)
How'd that work out for you? That's good. Yeah, that is good.
It's so let's talk about because what your band is, this is I guess part of it is also have someone to talk to, perhaps even a professional have a therapist that you can talk to about setting these boundaries because there will be critics, especially if you're going to change from being an
over functioning to being a normal functioning ⁓ individual. And there's going to be that gap. Particularly, could imagine during the gap, you're going to have a lot of people that are going to be very upset. And they're going to be like, well, what have we used to have? Fill in the blank, right? We used to have ⁓ bullets. I don't know that both is the right answer, because I hopefully that would always get done. But we used to, you know, have Bible studies on Wednesdays. But now, you know, Father Lorenzo can't be there for them. So they're not being done.
And Father Lenz was like, yeah, because I'm only supposed to be here like quarter time, half time. So there's an expectation. How can leaders respond to critics when that happens?
Margaret Marcuson (18:13)
There are a number of things. One is to remember this criticism is not personal. It feels personal. When you step into a leadership role, you automatically become the focus of a projection.
Lorenzo Lebrija (18:20)
Mm.
I
heard in seminary they taught us that's why we have collars and that they're white so they can perfectly project onto there what they want us to be. That's like, this is why we wear the collars, right? Exactly, so they can project directly onto us what they want us to be.
Margaret Marcuson (18:37)
Yeah, that's right. Yes, that's right. I'm a Baptist, we don't wear collars, but same thing. Yes, yes. Yeah, yes.
So just to remember that. And some criticism can be astonishingly personal and it's still not personal. You have to acknowledge your own feelings of distress and
pain when those criticisms come your way, but to say, okay, this sort of comes with the job and I just need to depersonalize it.
to work to stay in relationship even with your critics.
Lorenzo Lebrija (19:18)
Hmm, very important.
Margaret Marcuson (19:19)
and is very,
very, very important and difficult. And this is where the work on yourself comes in, to be able to walk across the room. Many years ago, I interviewed Ed Bacon, who was an All Saints Pasadena for years, and he talked about looking across the room at coffee hour and you see your biggest critic. Just walk over and say hello.
Lorenzo Lebrija (19:23)
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Ha ha ha ha ha
Margaret Marcuson (19:43)
So you can be light about it. You don't have to sit down and process the whole issue with them every time. You can ask about the grandchildren. You visit them in the hospital. You work on relationships because over time you build a capital and they will cut you more slack over time.
Lorenzo Lebrija (19:45)
Exactly.
Yeah. You can still be in relationship with them, I think is.
And you also mentioned in your book that it's important to reflect on our own family stories as we're doing sort of this reflective work and going towards it. How can that make a difference in ministry for ministry that me knowing my whole life story, my family story?
Margaret Marcuson (20:19)
So we all learn about how to relate to other people in the families we grow up in. For better and sometimes for worse, depends. Every family is different, but every family has both challenges and strengths.
Lorenzo Lebrija (20:27)
For worse.
Margaret Marcuson (20:34)
I coach one clergy leader who grew up in a highly conflicted family, lots of struggle, and ended up serving a highly conflicted congregation. And her family had actually prepared her very well for that setting because she knew how to be in a room with people yelling at each other without getting thrown by it.
Lorenzo Lebrija (20:57)
in conflict.
Where some of the group in a incredibly peaceful home might be like, my god, this is awful.
Margaret Marcuson (21:05)
Yeah,
yes, that's right. And that would be me, like women especially, we're not supposed to mix it up.
Lorenzo Lebrija (21:12)
Hmm.
Margaret Marcuson (21:13)
So to understand that, and I've gotten a lot better at standing up for myself than early in my ministry when I could easily be thrown by conflict.
Lorenzo Lebrija (21:25)
And and I, yeah, you know, conflict is is a thing that we are somehow all taught that it is generally false in the bad column. Right. You had conflict today at work when you come home and say that generally means I need to, you know, debrief this and it wasn't good generally. Right. Is how we sort of grow into it. However, there's so much literature in leadership leader.
teachings and studies that talk about that conflict can actually be an amazing thing to move forward, to move an organization forward, to move a relationship forward, because it's actually getting to the nitty gritty of the work. You're actually getting to the core of bringing about change. If you're trying to bring about change in this conflict, generally the conflict is about the things that are gonna be the hardest to change. And so at least you're talking about those things now. You can move those tables all you want to, but...
what's gonna be harder is what's really affecting and dealing with it in a positive way. And so I think walking in there, recognizing that conflict can be good is a good thing.
Margaret Marcuson (22:35)
It is. So if you are leading a congregation or any organization forward, you will be upsetting the balance. That raises anxiety by definition. And people will react. Sometimes it might come out as tables that become the focus for the anxiety, but not necessarily. Yes, yes, yes. So to...
Lorenzo Lebrija (22:44)
Yes, by definition.
Right, presenting issue is not necessarily the issue.
Margaret Marcuson (23:02)
That's part of to understand that you move things forward. The balance is upset. People may get upset. Can you predict it? Can you predict who or how? You might be surprised. It's something of a research project. In fact, all of congregational life can be a research project. yeah, and it sounds like it can sound kind of cold to say, I'm just going to step back and observe them.
Lorenzo Lebrija (23:19)
Mmm.
Yeah, good ethnography.
Margaret Marcuson (23:31)
but it helps you, helps keep you from getting so caught up in the drama and to be able to see your own part in the drama. And this is another of the value of the family work to say, how is it that you learned how to function in relationship with other people? And what are your own trigger points and hotspots and vulnerabilities? And can you develop a wider repertoire, have more choices?
Lorenzo Lebrija (23:46)
Mm.
good point. You know, I think that I was just thinking that through. one of the things that probably could be, I would imagine in most congregational settings would be something that's a tough topic to talk about would be money. Right. Because generally one of the largest parts of the budget are the salaries and the priest is one. So the priest might feel a little bit guilty bringing it up.
right, because like, oh, I'm asking for money from basically my salary. And so it just becomes this thing that we don't talk about. I don't know if it gets to the point of becoming an elephant in the room that we don't talk about because we do eventually. why is it why is it so tough on us? Is it just the way we were raised? Were Puritans in that way? Or and more importantly, how can pastors lead more effectively in relation to money?
Margaret Marcuson (24:46)
It's a tough topic. I wrote a whole nother book about money, money and ministry because it's such ⁓ a tough topic. so many clergy are, you could be chronic over function as a clergy leader and still under function in relation in relationship to money. I think that is very, very common.
Lorenzo Lebrija (24:49)
I'm gonna go.
say more about that.
Why do you think that is?
Margaret Marcuson (25:09)
Well, it sort of takes two to tango. I spoke at this conference with clergy and lay leaders about money. And one guy came up to me afterwards. He our pastor doesn't want to talk about money, and we don't want him to. So that might not be true in an Episcopal church, because I know the rector has a lot more ⁓ authority than in congregational settings. ⁓
Lorenzo Lebrija (25:33)
Yeah. Well, you'd be surprised. yeah.
Margaret Marcuson (25:38)
You
Lorenzo Lebrija (25:40)
It's just how so how how can pastors within that? How do we lead more effectively when it comes to money? Is it just transparency? I've heard a lot about the just be as transparent as possible with everything and always use like a narrative budget when you're talking to just put numbers out there. But tell them this is exactly what this is going for. And this is how we do it.
so that it becomes more of the investment of what we're doing. Those are certainly some tactical ways of doing it. What would you add to that?
Margaret Marcuson (26:10)
So I'm all for that, all for transparency, love narrative budgets, all of that. And again, it starts with the leader themselves. Are you comfortable, are you becoming more comfortable in talking about money, understanding money matters, and being able to ask people to give?
And it's about way more than your salary. It's a pastoral responsibility. People have to deal with money every single day of their lives. And we give them very little spiritual support for that part of their lives because we're afraid to talk about it because of the, not just Puritanism, but centuries of dualism in relation to...
Lorenzo Lebrija (26:39)
Mm.
Mm.
Margaret Marcuson (26:56)
money in general and in particular and physical life in general.
Lorenzo Lebrija (27:03)
It's a it's it's you know, as we sort of these topics that we're talking about, it seems to me if I were to like bring it all down, so much of it is spiritual. Right. Especially especially in the work that we do. And I think you make ⁓ you make a good point in your book about prayer being a very important part of this for the life of a of a pastor of a clergy person.
Margaret Marcuson (27:16)
Yes.
Lorenzo Lebrija (27:31)
Tell me, what would you, like, would it be the number one? I've got to, right from the get go, admit that I am a huge fan of prayer. think prayer can do huge and amazing things and we should always begin most things with prayer. We should definitely have it be the anchor of our days. should, if you're in ministry and you're not praying every day, I just, it's eventually gonna become, quote unquote, more just a job than it is a vocation that you're leaning into.
And two, I think people can notice when, at least I can, I can go into a congregation and I can tell whether or not the priest or the pastor has a strong prayer life just in how the spirituality, if you will, of the congregation. ⁓ Where would you place prayer within the things that someone can do or should do for not burning out, for being a good leader? Where would you place it?
Margaret Marcuson (28:27)
⁓ right at the top. When I was very first in pastoral ministry, I went to the local Baptist clergy gathering. I just moved across the country to Massachusetts to serve a church there. there was a UCC couple who came and said they had developed a worship booklet for the free church.
with familiar hymns and scriptures and they gave us each a copy and said, this is essential for your ministry. It was such a gift to me right there from the get-go. And it was a little stapled together. I used it till it fell apart. I still pray every day, I began my day that way. And I love Richard Foster's line, pray as you can, not as you can't.
Lorenzo Lebrija (29:16)
Mm.
Exactly.
Margaret Marcuson (29:22)
So to make it one more obligation isn't going to help you. And one minute of prayer is exponentially better than no minutes of prayer.
Lorenzo Lebrija (29:33)
Absolutely. And and I I'm I'm actually also a big fan. In fact, ⁓ I was very happy to hear a couple of months ago when when they asked Pope Leo about his what is sort of the foundation of his spirituality. And even though he's an Augustinian, he said basically from Brother Lawrence, the Brother Lawrence or the resurrection, the the the practice of the presence of God. And I'm a huge fan of the practice of the presence of God, because first of all, I just love the fact that within it,
Margaret Marcuson (29:54)
Yes.
Lorenzo Lebrija (30:03)
Is mentioned the practice because you it is something that you continuously just keep practicing over and over again But to just make god part of every day in your life of everything every moment everything that you're doing ⁓ but but certainly also and and as said earlier, right beginning with prayer Being anchored in prayer. It's just and and It just helps If nothing else to remind us that this is a special vocation
Margaret Marcuson (30:26)
Yes.
Lorenzo Lebrija (30:30)
that's outside of the norm. You're not managing a small nonprofit. You're not. You're you're basically a chief spiritual officer for for a congregation for a group of people who are placing all this trust in you. You know, I want to go back to something you said earlier, though. You even you said even I got a call from a friend a couple of days ago to remind me that that wasn't mine to do. Right. So and you wrote this book. So.
And it's still happening to you. So that goes to the it's a lifelong sort of work that we have to do in this. So but how does one decide what's not your work to do?
Margaret Marcuson (31:06)
Well, is, the practice of prayer can help you. If you have a regular practice of prayer, it can help you discern. You learn, it's a sense of the moving of the spirit.
And sometimes, well, let's face it, there's things you gotta do that you don't wanna do because it's the job. But really, to be able to spend more time rather than less.
doing what gives you joy or at least some time.
Lorenzo Lebrija (31:35)
So here's a question. If somebody comes into a congregation and you find, this is a particularly under-functioning congregation, and I happen to be self-differentiated enough and I happen to be healthy enough that I have my boundaries, but I know there's gonna be some, there's gonna be some gaps. I can already tell there's gonna be some gaps because I'm gonna ask them to do things and they're not used to being asked, right? And to your point, it's gonna take time. What would you recommend? How would you go about changing that system to invite?
those lay leaders to invite others into the work of the church more than just showing up on Sunday and perhaps to a Bible study or something. What is an intentional way that you recommend that you have seen works for changing a system? If you walk in there and it's like, I'm okay, but the system is not, how do we change that?
Margaret Marcuson (32:25)
So here's what I would say first off, I'm not 100 % convinced that any clergy person can change any system. Okay, those forces have been in place for decades and you're gonna come in for your decade or your five years. So what you do is you work on changing yourself in that system.
Lorenzo Lebrija (32:32)
⁓
We'll see. Say more about that, because if, for example, let's say you walk in and the congregation just doesn't happen to have ⁓ many people that volunteer, it's just just not the way they've been asked. And certainly you're not saying, well, don't do anything, don't invite him. Obviously, that's not that's not the right answer.
Margaret Marcuson (32:58)
Yep. Yep.
That's
not what I'm saying. I'm saying to be realistic. To go in and say, ⁓ here's this congregation. I'm going to whip them into shape. That's the recipe for burnout right there. Right?
Lorenzo Lebrija (33:21)
Well, that goes back to the wedding example, right? It's like, I'm totally going to change my spouse.
Margaret Marcuson (33:25)
Yeah, exactly. Yes.
Yeah, that's right. So yes, yes.
Lorenzo Lebrija (33:31)
So I spoke to on the podcast, my God, probably like two years ago, I was talking to Father Jason Pratty in Ohio. I happen to remember it perfect. And he said to change it to, because he sort of, it comes to mind now, when he walked into his system, he said, just find one or two people. The whole congregation may not want to change, but find one or two people that have the energy, that have the wherewithal, that have the, that are the.
the energetic ones that want to help you with that. And those two alone, plus you functioning well, can then bring about others into that system, right? Into that mini system.
Margaret Marcuson (34:10)
Yeah, I
think that's right. the way I think about, you don't change the system, but if you're functioning well, there's a possibility, the potential for that system to function better while you were there and maybe after you're gone, but you got to let go of that because you won't be there. You do what you can. And what you do is by being a...
relatively non-anxious presence, a less anxious presence, relatively. So you can lower the sum total of anxiety in the system by lowering your own, not by lowering other people's. They may be able to step it down. And I agree 100%. You look for people, a few people who are motivated. Look for the people whose eyes light up when you're talking about what you feel called to at this time. You work with those people. You don't try to convert
Lorenzo Lebrija (34:59)
Yeah.
Margaret Marcuson (35:05)
be unconverted. However, you do stay connected with them. You work on relationships, relationships, relationships.
Lorenzo Lebrija (35:11)
Yeah.
And it might mean I mean, if we're being honest, it might mean that some of those people when if they do start to see that you've now got a little gaggle of people that are functioning and that it that is working well, and maybe they start to feel left out or they made they feel that then they have a choice, right? They think they can either change them a little bit about themselves and come into that that sort of the new way new system, or which could happen, they'd say, well, this church is no longer for me. And they go somewhere else.
Margaret Marcuson (35:29)
Yeah.
Lorenzo Lebrija (35:40)
And this is the point you made earlier, which is a leader has to be okay with that. That this is just, this is where the spirit is now, and this is where the spirit might be calling them somewhere else. And that's okay. And I think that certainly goes back to the question of what do you decide is your work and not your work to do that. Keeping everybody in the church and keeping everybody in the church happy is not your work. That's your point. That's a recipe for burning out.
Margaret Marcuson (35:43)
Yeah, that's right.
That is not your work. Yes.
Yes. And again, you get back to family. Most of us were raised, maybe a special child or the good child or pressure to please, pressure to do it the right way, not to disappoint. Those forces are powerful. And there's the lifelong work of saying, to say, I'm going to be clear. Here's my call. This is what I'm going to do. Here's what I'm not going to do.
Lorenzo Lebrija (36:14)
Yeah.
Margaret Marcuson (36:29)
But also this is this is not it is never a formula because you say here in this church I see it I have to attend to this right now.
And these are the, I need to connect with these people. Here are the motivated people, here are the unmotivated people. I'm not going to chase after them, but I'm going to have coffee with, you know, the matriarch because I can't do what I want to do without a relationship with the matriarch.
Lorenzo Lebrija (36:52)
Exactly. And yeah, I don't think ⁓ you would advocate for it. I certainly wouldn't write that you're mean to the people that aren't participating in the new system or something like that. You welcome them. You offer them the invitation to participate. the key is not to create a clique, right, that then others can participate. And the key is everybody's welcome to join in. But I think if you can find the two or three other people that are
Margaret Marcuson (37:02)
Right.
Yes, yes, yes.
Lorenzo Lebrija (37:18)
that are functioning well and that want to help you with this work, then what you're actually doing is saying, hey, we have a new way of doing things that's kind of exciting. If you want to join us, you're more than welcome to. If you don't, hey, that's fine too. You can still be here, be part of the church. We're not going to kick you out or hate you or anything like it, which they're going to love you. But the overall, if you will, of your book, I think, is a lot about this is internal work.
This is internal work that you have to do for yourself and you have to continue to work on. And what I'm going to take away from our conversation is certainly the reflective part, because I think we don't do a lot of that in the sense of some people call it the 30, the view from the balcony or the 30,000 foot view or what not. But it is important every once in a while to just take a step back and to see like, what have I taken on that's probably not mine?
that either could go to someone else or needs to change. But I think part of that work is also, at least for someone like me, would be, how do I change my expectations of what the outcome of this is gonna be? How do I change the fact that I want everybody to be involved because I want them to partake in the wonderful work of the kingdom that we're doing right here, right now in our community and to be like, you know what? We may not do this event this year because there's not the volunteers, but I'm not gonna do it all. And I just can't do it
I think also when I was looking through your book, the one of the things that that reminded me of is I fly a lot. So I use a lot of airplane metaphors, but it is the one when you're getting the briefing before the plane takes off that most people don't pay attention to. right. If the masks fall, put yours on first before you put it onto the person next to you, because if you are not healthy, then you cannot help others. And and that's that's a big takeaway, I think that you're talking about is like you need to work on yourself and then
Be the well-functioning person in the system with as little anxiety as you can to change the system as much as you can. But to your point, without the expectations like, I'm gonna change the system, they don't even know what's gonna hit them. This is gonna be the best functioning system ever. I could totally see the two months later, I'm so burnt out, I can't do anything.
Margaret Marcuson (39:36)
two months later. Yes.
There they go again. And to be compassionate for people in their struggles. And to yourself. Yes, that's right. ⁓ Again, that is the spiritual work. So God loves you just as you are. It's not about producing.
Lorenzo Lebrija (39:43)
Yeah. And to yourself. Be compassionate, exceedingly, exceedingly compassionate with yourself.
Exactly.
You do not have to earn it. That's been done. Again, as we said at the beginning, we already had a savior, did a pretty good job of it. So just to your part. Yeah.
Margaret Marcuson (40:00)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there is real work to do. It's important work
and it's not easy work. My mother used to say, just do the next thing.
Lorenzo Lebrija (40:17)
Yeah, and and and be okay. I think being okay with with with not being able to do everything you wish you could do not being but I think that would be by the way that the and because as we've been having this conversation, we started sort of talking about the smaller, you know, less than full time but this would this could easily be a person who's running a ⁓ congregation with multi staff and you can
Margaret Marcuson (40:42)
Yeah, that's right. So
I've coached clergy with multi-staff and clergy with 20 people in the pews. And it's a way of thinking about ministry and about yourself in ministry.
Lorenzo Lebrija (40:53)
Wow. You know, it's it's something to think about. It really just it gives you something there. ⁓ Again, the name of the book is Sustainable Ministry, How to Lead and When to Nap. Margaret, anything else you'd like to say before we call it a day? Anything else I've forgotten perhaps to ask you that you want to share with your with our listeners?
Margaret Marcuson (41:14)
want to say to all of you thank you for your work. God bless you and you are in my prayers.
Lorenzo Lebrija (41:21)
Thank you very much and, Marta, you'll be in ours. Thanks for joining us on the Triton podcast.