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Part 2 of 2 with Jenn Bentley. If you haven't listened to part 1 (episode 98), then we recommend you do so you can jump into the continued conversation with us. Other than colostrum, what else should you be doing in the calf barn to succeed? What about with automated feeders? Answers in this episode!
Hosted by members of the University of Minnesota Extension Beef and Dairy Teams, The Moos Room discusses relevant topics to help beef and dairy producers be more successful. The information is evidence-based and presented as an informal conversation between the hosts and guests.
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Dr. Joe Armstrong: Welcome back to The Moos Room, everybody. This is Dr. Joe Armstrong. As promised, we're back to finish our conversation with Jenn Bentley, calf expert from Iowa State. We will pick it up right from where we left off. We're discussing all the things you need to do in your calf barn to be successful and hit the benchmarks that we listed and discussed in our last episode. If you haven't listened to the last episode, please go back and do so.
It'll make a lot more sense what we're talking about in this one. Thank you for listening. Let's jump in. We talked about colostrum. That's the best thing you can do for these calves overall. If you're not making sure that's right, the rest of it is so much less important. You got to get that right first. Let's stay on that management trend and say, "Okay, what else should I be doing in my calf barn for these calves to really make sure that they succeed?"
Jenn Bentley: Yes, that's a really good question because our dairy farms are not cookie-cutters. All these calves are not going to move in the same facility, so we can't recommend one ventilation system. We can't recommend one type of barn design because farmers like to do what they're going to do. We have to work around how they like to manage their operations. Ventilation is critical no matter what type of facility we're moving into, so always taking a look at that, whether that's going into a new facility or maybe we've retrofitted a facility and it's never had calves in it before.
Now here we are putting 20, 30 calves in there and they have all kinds of pneumonia issues. They're not growing right. You got to take a look at what can we do to improve the air quality in those barns, so making sure they have adequate space. If we're dealing with automatic calf feeders or individual pens, I like to say making sure we have at least 40 square feet per calf for those calves. If we're dealing with some type of retrofit facility where maybe it has a lower ceiling height, that means we got to give them more space down below because air quality is probably going to be a little bit less.
So giving them more space in those types of situations or improving that ventilation within that calf barn even more. Taking a look at bedding, particularly coming into wintertime, making sure that that's dry. How are they getting nestled into their bedding? Are they able to nestle into that bedding without getting wet? Do they have calf jackets on? Can we get the moisture away from those calves? Is there drainage within those pens that we can allow them to be dry? What other things am I missing?
Dr. Joe: Nutrition.
Jenn: Nutrition, yes.
Dr. Joe: This is one that we debate constantly, and I feel like it sparks the most arguments for sure about how much you should feed a calf. I think looking at different work, whether it's from you or from Sandra Gordon here at the University of Minnesota, I feel like I know the answer, but I'd love to hear your take on how much should I be feeding my calves.
Jenn: Well, I think it depends on what type of milk you're feeding your calves because you can tell me you're feeding 4 quarts two times a day, and maybe it's only a 20:20 milk replacer. Is that calf going to grow the same as the calf that's getting 24% protein? They're not because protein is our limiting factor when we're talking about growth. We want them to be able to maximize that potential for growth and that potential for milk production later on, so we have to feed them like we want them to respond in the milking string.
I think taking a look at what you're feeding, looking at that nutrition label, and depending on what your goals are for the farm, being able to correlate that back to the growth of your animals. I would just really caution people to be using a 20:20 milk replacer at this point. There's just so much data out there right now showing the potential for increased milk production by intensifying that point of nutrition because when we take a look at comparing that to a whole milk, that milk replacer is going to have to sit closer to a 26% protein to get that close to feeding mom's milk. We got to start looking at that to make any advances into our milk production.
Dr. Joe: The other thing that goes along with that, and this is where I see if I can convince someone to get to 24:20 or 26:20 and feed 3 quarts three times a day or a gallon twice a day, I still can't, a lot of the times, convince them to do the same thing with their bull calves. That's frustrating to me because it's like we forget all of this information that benefits these heifer calves and improves their lifetime performance, but we forget that there's no way that doesn't apply also to the bull calves. If you want to sell high-quality bull calves into the feedlot system, it's worth investing in them upfront. Is that something you see as well, Jenn?
Jenn: Yes. I think it's probably a kind of-- Maybe it's hard for them to realize the value of their return on that increased cost of milk replacer because it is an expensive part of the operation feeding that higher-quality milk replacer. They got to see some value back, but hopefully, in return, they're going to see that they have a higher-quality animal, they have growth rate animals coming out of the barn, and eventually, that's going to be a big return to them.
Dr. Joe: Yes, I think that's where it is, and it builds your reputation. It allows you to get a higher price because people know and they see the performance of your animal coming out of your place. I think the value is there, but getting started is the hardest part because it is a substantial investment upfront. Big thing to note, and Emily and Brad will be super happy about this, nowhere in there did we talk about vaccines. Brad and I argue about vaccines all the time, about vaccines and calves. Everything we talked about was management.
I really, really do think that all of these things are more important than any vaccine you give a calf. These things keep a calf healthy. A vaccine is good, and I'm not telling you not to give them. I like vaccines. I'm a veterinarian, I have to. I'm obligated to love vaccines, but they're not as important as these other things. You got to get this other stuff right, and then vaccines are insurance. I guess we should briefly talk about vaccines and your stance on vaccines and calves, Jenn.
Jenn: Well, I'm not a veterinarian, so I can't give veterinarian advice to vaccines, but I would say they have their place and their role in the dairy operation. Whether that's looking at vaccinations for your dry-off program and your pre-fresh animals, making sure that they're timely so that that cow can develop those maternal antibodies that eventually go into the colostrum that you're feeding the calves, that's pretty critical because if you're not vaccinating timely, you're just wasting that money because it's not getting into the colostrum.
From that standpoint, I think that's pretty critical is making sure you're working with your veterinarian to make sure you got the right ones at the right place during that time frame. As far as calves go, again, it's going to be so herd-specific. You really have to know what's going on with your herd as far as what diseases are on your farm and what preventative measures you want to take. Obviously, from the colostrum standpoint, there's maternal antibodies that are going to help fight off diseases early on, but as those maternal antibodies wane and decrease, that calf is going to have to start defending on their own. That's where we see that placement of vaccines really take a stance in the health management of those calves.
Dr. Joe: Couldn't have said it better myself. Wonderful. Work with your veterinarian is the key in there. I love that I got someone to admit that on this podcast. Wonderful deal. All right, let's move on to what Bradley really, really wants to talk about. He wants to talk about automatic calf feeders. For me, my first question before we really jump into this and what Bradley wants to take the lead on would be, do all of these benchmark numbers that we've been talking about, do they transfer really well over to an automated calf feeder? If I go from individual pens and bottles or group pens and mob feeders to an automated calf barn, are my benchmarks pretty much the same?
Jenn: I would say yes, but does Brad have a different opinion? Okay. He's shaking his head no. Typically, when a producer is making a decision about going to an automatic calf feeder, really having a conversation about some of these benchmarks is probably the first conversation you want to have because if you don't have your colostrum management program in place and the cleanliness in place, you really are setting yourself up maybe for a train wreck when you get into a group housing situation. Most definitely, I think these benchmarks apply.
Dr. Joe: Yes, that's perfect because I've seen those train wrecks, and I don't know where the confusion is to be like the automatic calf feeder is just the solution to make everything better and somehow it replaces management, which we talk on the show all the time that you can't do that. Technology doesn't replace basic management. I've seen that train wreck a lot. That's my point in asking that question is that you have to keep these numbers in mind. You got to get everything straight, and then you can move on to something like this and expect it to improve your operation.
Otherwise, it's going to be a nightmare of trying to chase down and put out fires everywhere. Jenn, what are some of the good things about automatic calf feeders, and why people should consider going to them?
Jenn: Well, I think a lot of people like to consider them because they want to be able to raise better calves, and not saying that you can't raise better calves individually or mob feeding. There's definitely good ways of raising calves no matter what management system you have, but sometimes it boils down to labor efficiency. You still have the same employee feeding the calves, but now, instead of them having to haul pails out to the calf hutches, they're actually observing the animals and watching the behavior of the animals.
They're watching more of the health signs of the animals, and maybe they're just a little bit more in tune with what the calves are doing versus just trying to get the chores done. I think some of that is labor efficiency and improving working conditions. We had, what, 40, 50, almost 80-mile-an-hour winds last couple of days. Who likes to be out feeding calves in 80-mile-an-hour winds? Everybody's shaking their head. Yes, I wouldn't either. Obviously, for the employee, if you have a happy employee, they're probably going to do a better job.
It also allows you to provide more milk to those calves without really increasing labor. Especially this time of year when it's cold and we talk about trying to feed more milk to those calves, we say, "Oh, feed three times a day." Well, if you're in hutches, who wants to be out there three, four times a day feeding milk? Well, it's a lot easier for somebody in an automatic calf feeding system to feed multiple times because those calves are going to come up to that feeder six, eight times.
Dr. Joe: I like the way that you put that with the labor efficiency because that's what it really is. It's not just labor. It's not going to save you labor overall, but it's going to make you more efficient with the labor you do have. That's a big point. Brad talks about that all the time. That's why some of these robotics and sensors are the same way. It's labor efficiency. I love that you put it that way.
Jenn: Yes, we did some survey work early on, and we actually thought the labor was going to decrease when we asked the producers what your labor was before you implemented automatic calf feeders and what your labor was afterwards, and it really didn't change. I was actually surprised by that, but now, after seeing automatic feeders being in for so many years now, I can see that.
Dr. Joe: There's some pretty loud opinions in the industry about how many calves should we be putting on these automatic feeders to be successful and truly see these benchmarking points that we see. To hit those points, how many calves can we really put on each nipple? How do you see that play out, Jenn?
Jenn: I think early on, we were seeing a lot of calves on one nipple. I think we were just trying to get calves on and just packing them in. I think we were seeing 30-plus animals on one nipple. I think we were seeing a lot of issues, but as we learned how these feeders work and learned about competition around the feeder, just like we do competition around robots, older calves versus younger calves. Brad, I think this is Marcia's data, right? That they came to the conclusion of closer to 20 cows per nipple feeder.
Bradley: Yes. That takes into account animal health, bedding, labor, all of those factors that kind of settles around 20, even though maybe some companies and others say, "Well, you should put 25." 25 is what I've heard about the max doing, but that's pushing it.
Dr. Joe: I think the frustration from the producer side early on was that they were told they could put a certain number of calves in a barn with an automated feeding system. When you come in and you say, "Okay, well, actually, you've got to cut 25% of those calves out of this barn to make it work," all they're seeing is the amount of time to pay this thing off just increased dramatically. That's a hard thing to do. To me, I think we got a little bit of the cart ahead of the horse, and I think that no one's really guilty in this.
I'm not going to point any fingers, but when you're told one thing and you said you can go ahead and put 25 calves per nipple in this barn, it's going to work great, and really, you should only be putting 20 or 15 to 20, then that's a huge difference in the investment itself. That's where I think a lot of the frustration came from. It certainly was my frustration because every time we took a calf off that automated feeder, it just increased the time before it was paid off.
Bradley: When you talk about nutrition on automatic calf feeders, what do we see out there? What's the recommendation? How much should we be feeding on the auto feeders? How much per feeding? What are those benchmarks for that process?
Jenn: Brad, maybe you have numbers here too, but when we surveyed our producers, they were getting about 140 to 150 grams of powder per liter each time they were going up there and feeding up to 12 liters per day. Most of them are probably averaging 8, 9 liters, but some are maxing out at 12. I know some herds probably go even up a little bit higher, but that's where we're seeing that. Is that what you're seeing with the herd that you work with too?
Bradley: Yes, usually around the same amount of feeding 8, 9 liters. There is a contingent that are starting to think about ad-lib feeding and just letting them drink as much as possible. There's a lot of pluses and minuses about that. Even when you think about 8 or 9 liters per calf, I think about weaning process. Weaning is an issue. I was at this calf conference a couple of months ago, and a lot of the talk was about weaning and how do we wean calves off of high milk allowances, and what does weaning look like?
Weaning is an issue that we need to do more research with and think about more. The days of cold turkey weaning, and I still do that at Morris. We still do that here, and some people like it, and some people don't. Weaning is a thought that I have on how to do that, especially on auto feeders.
Jenn: Yes. I would say we talked about the grams of powder but making sure we're not underfeeding those calves in auto feeders either because then we run into suckling issues. Typically, when I hear of a herd or a farm that is having issues with suckling, it's because the nutrition is lacking or they don't have the calibration right on the auto feeder. If they go back and maybe they have to recalibrate or the powder hopper was plugged, so they're not getting as much powder into the milk, that's reducing the density of the milk going into the calves. That causes a lot of nutritional issues with the calves.
Just making sure maintenance things are being kept up to date on that and making sure we're feeding those calves for their best potential when they're in those so we're not seeing those suckling issues. Then like you said, Brad, with the weaning issues, I think a lot of herds are looking at some type of step-down process where they're over a course of 7 to 14 days, reducing the amount of powder that's going through those calves so that when they get to that last eight weeks or the last week before they're going to wean, they've started to increase in calf starter before you really take them off.
Dr. Joe: Brad, at one point, I think you and I were talking up at Morris about how much milk some of these calves drink at one time, and it's pretty astounding to me. Some of these calves will come up and drink a ton of milk at one feeding.
Bradley: Yes, if you let them. Some of our calves, they'll max that out at 9 liters. They'll drink 9 liters at a time if you allow them. They're slug-feeding at certain times. They may feed themselves just twice a day and they drink 9 liters at a time. Every calf is different. Calf behavior is really different on an auto feeder compared to when you're manually feeding them in a super hutch or individual hutch.
Dr. Joe: That's amazing that they can drink that all at once. They're still healthy. That's the key, right? They don't have any issues with that. They're still healthy calves.
Bradley: Right. They're still healthy. Well, some of these calves that we've weaned off the feeder at nine weeks of age are drinking 23, 24 liters of milk during the day. That's a lot of milk.
Jenn: How big are those calves?
Bradley: We've weaned a few off the auto feeder at 375 pounds when they're drinking ad-lib. You can do it. There's a big cost behind that. We don't talk about economics in a lot of these things, but I should say, that's not the average calf. You get these outliers that are just big monsters and they'll keep drinking as much milk as they can. If you allow them to drink as much as they want, they will.
One thing that I don't think we talk about it in manual feeding or individual feeding, group housing, it's cleaning and sanitation. What's your recommendations, Jenn, for cleaning of a feeder or sanitation? How do we deal with that? That's one thing that gets lost in the shuffle, I think, in a lot of things with automatic feeders.
Jenn: Well, I think if you think it's clean, clean it again [laughs] because the bugs are just everywhere. You just can't see them. The routine maintenance of all the hoses and the powder box, basically anything that water and powder moves through, we have to make sure we're up on our maintenance requirements. I think a lot of our equipment dealers now, early on when we had automatic calf feeders, nobody really knew much about the process of these feeders, and it was a learning curve for everybody. Now we have a lot of producers using them.
We have more equipment dealers that are more comfortable using them, so they are setting up some really good routine maintenance programs. What's your daily routine for cleaning? What's your three-month, six-month routines to clean the nipples, the hoses? We're seeing some technology improvements with just even sanitizing the nipples between each calf. There's companies now that every time a calf comes up, drinks, leaves its station, it's sanitizing a little bit. We're continually seeing some improvements in the cleanliness, but I think that's always an issue is what is our protocol?
Bradley: I can't agree with you more. Cleaning is the number one thing. Usually, if you have a problem in an automatic feeder with scours or something else, it usually goes back to cleaning. If there's biofilms or whatever somewhere on hoses, nipples, you name it, they can be big problems.
Dr. Joe: I think we've thrown out a lot of information and we've covered a lot. If you'd be willing to come back, that'd be great.
Jenn: Sure, I could do that.
Bradley: We'll ask the same two questions upfront.
Emily: That is against podcast policy.
Jenn: Oh, okay.
Bradley: Although the first question, the correct answer is Hereford.
Jenn: Oh.
Dr. Joe: If you want to come back and answer Hereford the next time, that's fine, I guess.
?Jenn: No, no.
?Emily: Now I know.
[laughter]
Jenn: I'm trying to maintain some integrity here.
Dr. Joe: A little bit. Brad and I are way past that. All right, I think we've thrown enough at everybody today. That's a lot to think about. We covered benchmarking data, we covered automatic calf feeders, all these different things. We're going to try to get Jenn to come back again in the future, so hopefully, not the last time you hear from her on this show. Thank you for being here today, Jenn. We really appreciate it.
Jenn: Yes, it was fun being with you, and I appreciate being a part of the Minnesota Extension podcast. This was fun.
Dr. Joe: Absolutely. Em, wrap us up.
Emily: If you have questions, comments, or scathing rebuttals about today's episodes or any of our episodes, you can email those to themoosroom@umn.edu.
Dr. Joe: That's T-H-E-M-O-O-S-R-O-O-M@umn.edu.
Emily: Find us on Twitter @UMNmoosroom and @UMNFarmSafety. Find Bradley on Instagram @umnwcrocdairy. You can also visit us on our website, extension.umn.edu.
Jenn: You can find the calf information on our Extension Dairy team website. If you go out and search Iowa State University Extension and Outreach Dairy Team Calves and Heifers, we got a page full of resources there.
Dr. Joe: I will make sure that's linked down in the notes, so look for it there. We'll see you guys next week.
Emily: Bye.
Dr. Joe: Bye.
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Bradley: The only two parameters are Hereford and Jersey. That's [unintelligible 00:24:16] whatever you want.
Emily: Oh, okay. [chuckles]
Dr. Joe: Hereford, Jersey.
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