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"Ultimately, it's always about improving student outcomes." – Dr. Kristen Weikle
"You can get so much more done if you have a team of individuals that work together with you." – Denise Pontrelli
"We all need to be working towards achieving the goal and making progress together." – Dr. Kristen Weikle
"Squadify helps leaders be intentional about where they put their time and energy." – Denise Pontrelli"You don't have to be the expert in everything all the time." – Dr. Kristen Weikle
Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
00:00:00 Dan:
Hi everyone, we've got something a little bit different on We Not Me today and it's because it's coming from a world that you, our dear listener, may not be very familiar with as we weren't.
00:00:10 Dan:
And it's because our two guests today are involved very heavily in the public school system in the US.
00:00:17 Dan:
We have Dr.
00:00:18 Dan:
Kristen Weichler, who is a superintendent of a district in Illinois.
00:00:23 Dan:
And we have Denise Pontrelli, who is a former superintendent and currently coaches Kristen and other superintendents and supports schools across the public system over there.
00:00:34 Dan:
This sounds like an alien world and you will be amazed at the responsibility of these leaders.
00:00:39 Dan:
Not only do they have in their hands the lives of more than 10,000 students, it effectively
00:00:46 Dan:
means that they have responsibility for a good chunk of the town or the city that they work in and the future of those places.
00:00:53 Dan:
How do they deal with it?
00:00:54 Dan:
What leadership helps them to see through all these stakeholder demands to actually get an outcome?
00:01:00 Dan:
Well, we're about to find out.
00:01:01 Dan:
Enjoy the show.
00:01:10 Pia:
I'm really excited about this episode of We Not Me because we are diving into leadership in US public schools, a subject very close to my heart.
00:01:21 Pia:
And it's an absolute pleasure to invite and bring our guests on, Dr.
00:01:26 Pia:
Kristen Weichel and Denise Petrelli.
00:01:28 Pia:
Welcome.
00:01:29 Pia:
Welcome to We Not Me.
00:01:30 Pia:
Thank you.
00:01:31 Pia:
So the first thing I'm going to do is hand you to Dan.
00:01:34 Pia:
He obviously spent a lot of time in the principal's office, so he's come up with a lot of good questions.
00:01:39 Pia:
So here we go.
00:01:40 Dan:
Exactly.
00:01:40 Dan:
And I'm really excited about this episode because I know we're just going to really learn about a world of leadership that I think will be a real surprise to people.
00:01:48 Dan:
And I'm certainly looking forward to getting stuck in.
00:01:50 Dan:
So here is your conversation starter card question.
00:01:53 Dan:
And it is, what's your favorite smell?
00:01:56 Dan:
I'm going to go with you first, Kristen.
00:01:58 Kristen:
I'd probably say eucalyptus.
00:02:02 Dan:
Very good.
00:02:02 Dan:
Yes.
00:02:03 Dan:
Well, you're going to make Pia happy.
00:02:05 Pia:
Straight from Australia, I might add.
00:02:07 Dan:
Yeah, very Australian smell.
00:02:08 Pia:
I don't know what happened, but I think a few of them went on a ship over to the US and then they ended up there.
00:02:13 Dan:
Yeah, you see them in California.
00:02:15 Dan:
Yeah, it's a lovely smell that.
00:02:16 Dan:
I think that's a good one.
00:02:17 Dan:
Thank you, Kristen.
00:02:19 Dan:
Where do you smell that?
00:02:20 Dan:
Tell us a little bit.
00:02:21 Dan:
Where do you get the eucalyptus from?
00:02:23 Kristen:
I tend to gravitate towards lotions or candles that have that smell.
00:02:28 Kristen:
I find it very calming and
00:02:31 Kristen:
reinvigorating a little bit.
00:02:33 Dan:
Yeah, yeah, it's very rich.
00:02:34 Dan:
That's a great one.
00:02:35 Dan:
Thank you.
00:02:36 Dan:
Denise, what is your favorite smell?
00:02:39 Denise:
I think my favorite smell is flowers.
00:02:42 Denise:
In particular, though, I love the smell of a rose.
00:02:44 Denise:
And that may sound kind of like everyone does, but my grandmother and my mother were very avid gardeners.
00:02:50 Denise:
And so we always had the pleasure of having those in our house growing up.
00:02:54 Denise:
When Christian said that eucalyptus, I could almost feel that like breathing in deep.
00:02:59 Denise:
Yes.
00:03:01 Dan:
It's wonderful, isn't it?
00:03:02 Dan:
It's so powerful, so powerful.
00:03:04 Dan:
And I think this has had to pardon my dodgy neuroscience, but I think that the olfactory, the smell and memory are very closely linked, aren't they?
00:03:11 Dan:
So it brings it straight back.
00:03:13 Pia:
I was going to say, Ambre Solaire, if I'm ever on a beach and I smell that suntan creep, that just reminds me of my childhood.
00:03:22 Pia:
You know, lying on a beach or a young teens lathering ourselves.
00:03:27 Denise:
Much better than lathering yourself in baby oil like we used to do.
00:03:31 Dan:
Yeah, that's right.
00:03:32 Dan:
Yeah.
00:03:32 Dan:
Weirdly, I put some sun cream on when I was in the mountains recently and it just took me straight to a sunny beach as a child.
00:03:39 Dan:
It was amazing.
00:03:40 Pia:
It's a great smell.
00:03:40 Dan:
It's wonderful.
00:03:41 Dan:
Brilliant.
00:03:42 Dan:
So tell us a bit more, Kristen, give us a little bio in a box.
00:03:44 Dan:
Tell us a bit about you and what got you to this place today.
00:03:48 Kristen:
Sure.
00:03:48 Kristen:
So I'm starting my 31st year in education.
00:03:52 Kristen:
I was a special education teacher for a number of years.
00:03:56 Kristen:
before starting my leadership journey as a principal and a special education administrator, spent some time as a director of special education for a co-op serving several districts.
00:04:08 Kristen:
And all of those experiences really helped provide me with knowledge, experience, exposure, and prepared me to be ready to step into the superintendency.
00:04:20 Kristen:
So I'm beginning my 16th year as a superintendent.
00:04:23 Dan:
Wow.
00:04:24 Dan:
Congratulations.
00:04:25 Dan:
Yeah, congratulations.
00:04:26 Dan:
Thank you.
00:04:26 Dan:
Tell us briefly what the superintendent role is.
00:04:30 Dan:
That may not be known to everyone outside the US.
00:04:32 Dan:
So tell us briefly what that is, could you?
00:04:34 Dan:
Sure.
00:04:34 Kristen:
So in the US, the school superintendent, school district superintendent oversees all of the schools within an area from finance to operations to transportation to curriculum and instruction, HR, anything and everything.
00:04:51 Kristen:
And so I've been a superintendent in a small district where I personally wore a lot
00:04:56 Kristen:
those hats, as well as where I am now in a rather large district, and I have various colleagues to help lead out those departments.
00:05:05 Pia:
Tell us a little bit about the school that you're part of.
00:05:08 Kristen:
I'm in McLean County Unit 5 in Bloomington Normal, and we have 24 schools.
00:05:15 Kristen:
We serve almost 13,000 students across 214 square miles.
00:05:21 Pia:
Wow.
00:05:21 Kristen:
So we're really a diverse district in that we're a little urban, a little suburban, and a little rural, which really makes for a beautiful blend.
00:05:31 Pia:
Gosh, I'm dying to dive into that.
00:05:33 Pia:
There's lots of complexity there.
00:05:35 Dan:
There sure is.
00:05:36 Dan:
Amazing.
00:05:37 Dan:
Denise, we
00:05:38 Dan:
met Kristen through you.
00:05:40 Dan:
So tell us a little about you.
00:05:42 Dan:
So it's great to have you on the podcast.
00:05:44 Dan:
Just tell us a little about your background.
00:05:46 Denise:
Yeah, I'm happy to.
00:05:47 Denise:
I chuckled a little bit when Kristen said 30 some years and I thought, well, I should add up.
00:05:52 Denise:
And I'm happy to say that I'm at a 40 year marker.
00:05:55 Denise:
Whoa.
00:05:56 Denise:
I was a teacher, principal, assistant superintendent, superintendent for many years.
00:06:01 Denise:
And then partway through COVID, I had the opportunity to step out of my role as superintendent and I started my own
00:06:08 Denise:
working with school boards and superintendents.
00:06:12 Denise:
I believe very much in the partnership of those two entities and I have a passion for education and so I am blessed to work with progressive leaders that are really looking for the future of education.
00:06:23 Denise:
Dr.
00:06:23 Denise:
Weichel is one of those leaders and just trying to help support what education looks like and experience for our students through working with the superintendents boards and staff in various districts.
00:06:34 Denise:
So it's a passion work project for me and I really consider myself
00:06:39 Denise:
lucky to be able to do that.
00:06:40 Pia:
That's amazing.
00:06:41 Pia:
I think once you've been a teacher, it stays with you forever.
00:06:44 Pia:
So I was actually jotting down mine.
00:06:46 Pia:
I qualified as a teacher 40 years ago and then my path was also then to see what they did when they grew up.
00:06:53 Pia:
So I went into corporate world to go and see how that worked.
00:06:56 Pia:
But you still always have that passion back to education and working with kids.
00:07:00 Pia:
It's been a fantastic experience.
00:07:03 Dan:
If I'm ever stuck with running a workshop and I'm thinking, how do we actually bring this across to the
00:07:09 Dan:
executives in this room in a compelling way that's going to help them to learn it and do something with it.
00:07:14 Dan:
I'm straight on a call with Pia because her teaching just came straight out.
00:07:18 Dan:
It's all there still.
00:07:19 Dan:
It's invaluable for us.
00:07:20 Dan:
Absolutely invaluable.
00:07:22 Dan:
So let's get stuck in.
00:07:23 Pia:
Yeah.
00:07:23 Pia:
So the question I want to start with, and I think really to give a context, Kristen, this is for you.
00:07:29 Pia:
Tell us what it's like.
00:07:30 Pia:
So give us a flavor of the context of what you're up against as a leader in your position and all the different types of decisions and stakeholders and challenges that you have.
00:07:42 Pia:
Because people listening to this may not grasp, I think, the complexity and the enormity of your role.
00:07:49 Pia:
They may see it more singularly as we have
00:07:52 Pia:
head teachers in the European system, we have principals down here in Australia, they may not have all of those things that they're trying to achieve.
00:08:00 Kristen:
Every day is different.
00:08:02 Kristen:
That is certain.
00:08:03 Kristen:
When I think about my primary job, I mean, ultimately, I am always looking to improve student outcomes, whether it be academic achievement or their social emotional learning outcomes.
00:08:15 Kristen:
But that's really a complex situation.
00:08:18 Kristen:
And so I work with other administrators
00:08:22 Kristen:
who are working with teachers, support staff to make sure that we're providing the very best instruction and support to our students.
00:08:30 Kristen:
And we do so through a variety of ways.
00:08:32 Kristen:
One, making sure our finances are sound and responsible to our taxpayers.
00:08:39 Kristen:
In Illinois, property taxes provide us with most of our revenue to support students.
00:08:46 Kristen:
So I work closely with my finance department to make sure that the revenue we're
00:08:51 Kristen:
receiving is not lower than what we're spending, you know, on students, on staff, on transportation.
00:09:00 Kristen:
Because we are such a large district, we have a large transportation system.
00:09:05 Kristen:
We run anywhere from 138 to 140 buses three times a day.
00:09:11 Kristen:
Wow.
00:09:12 Kristen:
So that's a complexity in itself, making sure that kids are picked up in a timely manner, that during cold weather days, we don't have students waiting out in frigid
00:09:22 Kristen:
too long, worrying about their safety security aspect.
00:09:25 Kristen:
So I work with the finance team on that.
00:09:27 Kristen:
I work with our operations team to make sure our buildings provide not only a welcome and safe environment for our students, but have the essentials that it takes to educate a student in the 21st century today.
00:09:40 Kristen:
And that looks at the type of in classroom environment as well as those other learning spaces.
00:09:47 Kristen:
I feel like that's changed drastically in my 31 years in education.
00:09:52 Kristen:
So not only looking at like what do we need today, but what do we need a year from now, five years from now, and many years beyond.
00:10:00 Kristen:
And so with that, we're taking a look at our current population, what's the population forecast moving forward, what types of students will we be serving, will the students of the future look like the students of today, where we have a blend of high income, middle income, low income, what will our student population
00:10:21 Kristen:
look like as far as demographic, whether it be race, ethnicity, the different languages that our students come to us speaking, and the varying abilities, right?
00:10:32 Kristen:
Whether they're exceptionally talented, whether they come needing some special education support.
00:10:38 Kristen:
Then I work closely with our curriculum and instructional department to make sure that our curriculum is truly matching the standards set forth by the state of Illinois, as well as our own local standards
00:10:52 Kristen:
and expectations.
00:10:53 Kristen:
Every district I've ever worked in in the U.S., every community is different and their expectations may differ slightly based on tradition, the businesses in town, and who they're wanting to become in the future.
00:11:07 Kristen:
So in a district our size, we also have a communications department and so by
00:11:12 Kristen:
I work closely with my communications director to make sure that we are doing the very best job possible to tell our story.
00:11:20 Kristen:
If we don't tell our stories, someone else is going to tell it and it may or may not be an accurate representation of us, right?
00:11:28 Kristen:
We can't have our students learning without the very best staff.
00:11:31 Kristen:
So I work closely with our human resources department, not only to recruit high quality staff, but really focus on that retention.
00:11:41 Kristen:
I'm probably biased,
00:11:42 Kristen:
is exceptional.
00:11:44 Kristen:
They have so many talents and gifts and our students really benefit from that.
00:11:48 Kristen:
And so there's just one aspect.
00:11:51 Kristen:
Then we have the students themselves.
00:11:55 Kristen:
as an important stakeholder, our families, our community members who maybe don't have children in school yet or no longer have children, making sure that we maintain, build and maintain a positive working relationship with them as well as the businesses in the community.
00:12:12 Kristen:
So that way, if they're telling us, hey, this is what we're seeing from your graduate and this is what we need, that we can work with the business community to accommodate and meet everyone's needs.
00:12:24 Kristen:
And I'm
00:12:24 Kristen:
sure I left out a whole lot of other things.
00:12:28 Pia:
That's fascinating.
00:12:29 Pia:
It's a really fascinating picture that you've drawn for us, Kristen.
00:12:33 Pia:
I've written down here, you're like a beacon in the community.
00:12:36 Pia:
You play a really big role in servicing the community, whereas I think in
00:12:42 Pia:
other countries, you may have a number of different schools within that community and the community is choosing one school over another, whereas you're serving the community and the fact that their taxes actually fund you is really insightful.
00:12:58 Pia:
That's whereas I think we just get government handouts that just sort of flat fees and that's your number for the year.
00:13:04 Pia:
Whereas this is different.
00:13:05 Pia:
You've got to have a strong relationship with that community.
00:13:08 Kristen:
Right.
00:13:08 Kristen:
And our community has been so supportive of our school system.
00:13:12 Kristen:
A couple of years ago, we asked for a tax increase to support our education fund, the fund that pays for our teachers and support staff and to provide the opportunities directly to students.
00:13:24 Kristen:
And our community came forward and voted to yes, increase their taxes or give us the ability to increase their taxes.
00:13:32 Kristen:
We haven't actually increased the rate, but they gave us that authority to be able to collect more because they want the very best for their students and the students in the community.
00:13:42 Pia:
So Denise, you've sat in a similar role and you've had those responsibilities and now you're doing something completely different of actually being out of the system and supporting the system.
00:13:53 Pia:
Tell us about why
00:13:54 Pia:
you wanted to do that and what that now involves?
00:13:57 Denise:
I think one of the reasons why it's exciting for me is because it's always different, right?
00:14:02 Denise:
Every leader, every community that you work with has different challenges.
00:14:06 Denise:
But my passion for education and helping our leaders, I know how hard they are working to provide the best outcomes for students.
00:14:13 Denise:
And Dr.
00:14:14 Denise:
Weichel just shared with you everything that she does for her organization, looking from finances, transportation, the organization, curriculum, social, emotional, her staff.
00:14:23 Denise:
She didn't mention how many staff she
00:14:24 Denise:
you look at how many people you're responsible for, she is responding to 13,000 students and many of them have one or two parents connected with them.
00:14:33 Denise:
She has staff, which staff have people connected with them, community members, and it's just a huge responsibility.
00:14:42 Denise:
And so part of the piece that she didn't mention that I know she's very good at and I've seen in person is the engagement with community and staff members and students.
00:14:52 Denise:
So not only she has
00:14:54 Denise:
the CEO of that organization expected to run all the functions that she talked about, but she's also expected to know everybody's name and know every teacher.
00:15:04 Denise:
And many of them will think that she knows probably what they had for breakfast.
00:15:08 Denise:
That is an expectation.
00:15:09 Denise:
People look to our educators, and when you have a leader like Dr.
00:15:13 Denise:
Weichel who develops and thinks those relationships are important, that's, I think, such a huge difference between maybe some businesses and education.
00:15:22 Denise:
We don't have widgets.
00:15:24 Denise:
We have students.
00:15:24 Denise:
and their parents and their community walking through that door.
00:15:27 Denise:
And every one of them has a different expectation about what school should look like or what the experience should look like.
00:15:33 Denise:
So my favorite place is to help the leader hold space
00:15:39 Denise:
to think about what are those current challenges and what do they wanna do for the future?
00:15:44 Denise:
Because their life is like running on a gerbil wheel.
00:15:47 Denise:
It really is no matter how organized, how great a help you have, the challenges have become so that we are expected to feed and the health and social, emotional and everything else, it's not just the academics.
00:15:59 Denise:
So I think it's important to provide places for the leaders to be able to step back, look at their organization, see how it's running and think about the changes that they might wanna make
00:16:09 Denise:
for the future that's ultimately will impact the students.
00:16:12 Dan:
Either of you, actually, just talk us through how you started working together.
00:16:16 Dan:
So what did that look like?
00:16:18 Dan:
How did it all initiate?
00:16:19 Dan:
And then talk us through that program of work, just getting into the practicalities, if you like.
00:16:23 Denise:
Dr.
00:16:24 Denise:
Weichel, I'll let you connect.
00:16:26 Dan:
Yeah, maybe.
00:16:27 Denise:
One thing that's very unusual is Dr.
00:16:29 Denise:
Weichel's board wanted to be supportive of what she wanted and the work she wanted to do moving forward.
00:16:35 Denise:
Not all school districts are as forward thinking as that.
00:16:39 Denise:
think that the superintendent should have all the answers for all of those things that she mentioned earlier.
00:16:44 Denise:
And good leaders can't have the answers.
00:16:47 Denise:
They're willing to ask questions and find experts in the fields that they need.
00:16:52 Denise:
And so I would just say that it's not very common boards to be able to say, Madam Superintendent, what do you need to help support you?
00:17:00 Denise:
And so that's what I'll add in.
00:17:01 Denise:
And then I'll let Kristen explain the story from her perspective.
00:17:06 Kristen:
I think that's a great way to begin.
00:17:07 Kristen:
I mean, I am very fortunate.
00:17:09 Kristen:
My board of education, some of them have worked with executive coaches in their day jobs.
00:17:15 Kristen:
And so they approached me and asked if I had an interest to work with a coach in my role.
00:17:22 Kristen:
And I was very open to that.
00:17:24 Kristen:
They went through a selection process and narrowed down some coaches for me to talk to, and I had the chance to talk with each one one-on-one.
00:17:33 Kristen:
And in talking with Denise, I felt like we had kind of an immediate connection.
00:17:38 Kristen:
We have some similarities in the districts that we've served.
00:17:42 Kristen:
And just through our conversation, I felt like she would be someone who I could be honest and trust to have some open and honest conversations
00:17:52 Kristen:
and receive some feedback and coaching through that process.
00:17:56 Kristen:
And so we've been working together almost nine months, and I really have valued the partnership and the support and guidance that Denise has provided me.
00:18:06 Kristen:
She's really like a thought partner.
00:18:09 Kristen:
in that she helps me maybe think about things differently or consider a different aspect that maybe I hadn't thought about.
00:18:17 Pia:
And through the work that you've done, what are some of the either changes or insights that you've had, like from a leadership perspective that you've gone, oh, actually, because I thought your comment before about the support from the board was really interesting.
00:18:31 Pia:
One person.
00:18:32 Pia:
should have all the answers.
00:18:34 Pia:
And that's a huge pressure to have.
00:18:36 Pia:
So when you've embarked on this work, what have you discovered and found interesting and or made changes to?
00:18:43 Kristen:
One of the things I've appreciated most, we've definitely talked about some challenges as they've come up through the year.
00:18:49 Kristen:
And so it's nice to have someone who's sat in the seat but doesn't live in your community to kind of like brainstorm and talk through maybe the best approach during some challenging situations.
00:19:02 Kristen:
Really, I think the thing I've appreciated most is Denise has a wealth of knowledge and resources.
00:19:09 Kristen:
And so if I've maybe mentioned a topic or
00:19:12 Kristen:
said, you know, I'm thinking about doing this next year, or I want to explore, or I think we need to do X, Y, Z, either in the moment or after the conversation, she'll follow up with maybe, hey, here's someone that you might want to read or listen to, or let me do an introduction to you with this person.
00:19:32 Kristen:
They might be some support.
00:19:33 Kristen:
And it really has helped me think about things differently rather than, you know, it's great to talk to my colleagues in the area, but a lot of times we're
00:19:42 Kristen:
similar resources.
00:19:44 Kristen:
And Denise has just had so many different experiences that she has been able to introduce me to some different individuals and resources that I wouldn't have otherwise been exposed to.
00:19:55 Dan:
Denise, I know a lot of our listeners would be interested in the coaching process.
00:20:00 Dan:
This is a really challenging one because you're coaching, as you say, I was going to use the word CEO and you did, but I feel it's bigger than that really.
00:20:07 Dan:
It's almost sort of heading towards mayor or it's such a complex role.
00:20:13 Dan:
How do you coach someone with such broad responsibilities?
00:20:17 Dan:
How do you sort of identify what areas of work to focus on?
00:20:21 Denise:
Always first the conversation, right?
00:20:23 Denise:
When Dr.
00:20:24 Denise:
Weichel and I met each other, she already shared with you that she's been a superintendent for 16 years.
00:20:29 Denise:
So definitely it would be different than somebody just moving into the role.
00:20:34 Denise:
And so it's just listening and understanding what the current challenges are, the experiences that they've already had.
00:20:41 Denise:
Nobody needs to waste time and sit down
00:20:42 Denise:
and go through things that they've already learned in different situations or districts.
00:20:47 Denise:
And then the other piece is, the name of this podcast that we're talking about today is We Not Me.
00:20:53 Denise:
And I really believe as a leader that you can get so much more done if you have a team of individuals that you work together with.
00:21:01 Denise:
Because of the things that Kristen shared earlier, all the different responsibilities she has, she and other leaders like her really need to be able to lean into their teams
00:21:11 Denise:
and trust them to be able to do the work.
00:21:14 Denise:
I just don't see how it really is manageable unless you have a team that you can rely on.
00:21:20 Denise:
And all of us know that teams go through different cycles.
00:21:23 Denise:
Sometimes we're in a really healthy place and things can happen.
00:21:26 Denise:
Lots of stressors on the system.
00:21:28 Denise:
It can be economic, it can be COVID.
00:21:31 Denise:
And so we really look at what the team dynamics are and that's
00:21:35 Denise:
where using Squadify was helpful and has been with McLean and other school districts to help that leader sit down and work with their team as a team member.
00:21:46 Denise:
I think it's just such a healthy thing to not expect the leader to always fix all the problems and the concept of Squadify where you come together and identify what are some things that you want to work together on, this just makes any team stronger.
00:22:01 Denise:
If they're just starting out, it's a great foundation.
00:22:04 Denise:
If
00:22:05 Denise:
they are more refined like Dr.
00:22:06 Denise:
Weichel's team has been and more mature and experienced.
00:22:09 Denise:
Then you get to work on some of the more exciting things like innovation and engagement.
00:22:15 Pia:
And Kristen, what impact have you found?
00:22:17 Pia:
Using Squadify and having those debriefs and discussions, what impact has that had on your team's leadership and the individuals that you work with?
00:22:26 Pia:
What have you noticed there?
00:22:27 Pia:
It's.
00:22:28 Kristen:
Definitely caused us to pause and reflect on not only our practices, but how we're working, interacting with one another.
00:22:36 Kristen:
Because ultimately, anything that we're doing with our small, immediate team that I'm working with ultimately impacts our staff, our students, all the way down to the classroom, the families
00:22:47 Kristen:
that are at home, sending their precious cargo to us every day.
00:22:52 Kristen:
And so it's so important that we're in sync with our goals and our actions.
00:22:58 Kristen:
It doesn't mean we agree 100% of the time on everything because that's healthy, right?
00:23:03 Kristen:
To have some people raising questions and different things, different dynamics, but to know that we are all focused on the same outcomes of improving student learning, making sure our community feels like they're aware
00:23:17 Kristen:
knowledgeable of what's happening, you know, with our schools.
00:23:20 Kristen:
Those are all important aspects to us.
00:23:23 Kristen:
And so we've had some great conversation just about questions asked in Squadify and then the results from our Squadify results, as well as, you know, some commitments of, okay, what are we going to try as a result of our results.
00:23:38 Dan:
Would you be happy to share an example of an insight you got about the team and then the thing you did to improve that area?
00:23:46 Dan:
It sounds like you have a really
00:23:47 Dan:
effective team already.
00:23:48 Dan:
So from what Denise was saying, you're sort of refining.
00:23:51 Dan:
So what did you learn and what areas did you refine and what did you practically do?
00:23:56 Kristen:
I think we are a pretty high functioning team with one another.
00:23:59 Kristen:
One of the conversations was really making sure that we are taking the time to ask questions to make sure that we're looking at
00:24:07 Kristen:
decisions from all aspects, from multiple stakeholders perspectives.
00:24:13 Kristen:
So not only thinking about it from like, let's say the teacher or staff member perspective, but what will a student feel like as a result of this decision?
00:24:22 Kristen:
What about a parent in the community?
00:24:25 Kristen:
What about someone in the community that doesn't have children in school right now?
00:24:29 Kristen:
What will our students and families with students with special education needs, what's that impacted them?
00:24:37 Kristen:
does it positively or negatively impact any of our student groups, whether it be by race, language, ability, et cetera.
00:24:47 Kristen:
And so we made a point of at different meetings, each person kind of taking on that role of if we don't bring it up naturally in conversation, then you're the one for this meeting who's going to make us stop and ask, Okay, who is this impacting positively or negatively?
00:25:06 Pia:
One of the questions is asking
00:25:07 Pia:
reflects and has time to reflect.
00:25:09 Pia:
So that sounds like that's something that you're specifically working on.
00:25:13 Pia:
And it's interesting because when I was working in schools, I became very aware of how easy it was as a teacher to be institutionalised and your behaviour became part of the system that you were in.
00:25:25 Pia:
And I noticed that as the term went on, what most teachers said to everyone is, I'm so tired and I'm so busy.
00:25:34 Pia:
So which meant that that space to be innovative or creative or to solve problems together became less and less and less.
00:25:42 Pia:
And I've seen exactly the same in all the large organizations that we work with.
00:25:46 Pia:
We don't realize how much the system we're in shapes our behaviors and therefore we need something to disrupt that pattern to give us a different way of seeing things.
00:25:57 Pia:
And Denise, so you work with other teams as well.
00:26:00 Pia:
What else are you seeing as learnings that are coming out of using Squadify in other districts and with other superintendents?
00:26:08 Denise:
If I could put one word towards it, I think it would be intentional practice.
00:26:13 Denise:
Squadify because it's reoccurring, it really helps leaders to be intentional about where they're going to put their time and their energy.
00:26:22 Denise:
And it also helps them to take that break to have reflection and then action.
00:26:28 Denise:
Too many times I think as leaders, we can have lots of conversations about how difficult things are or how tired we are, but Squadify helps us look at what the actions are to make it better, to be able to improve.
00:26:41 Denise:
And so I've seen that consistently.
00:26:44 Denise:
Sometimes it's easy to say, oh, we aren't going to do that anymore.
00:26:46 Denise:
Our team's doing very well.
00:26:48 Denise:
And that's a good place to be, but there's always an extra challenge or something that you can put forward when you're looking at innovation or alignment or something else that Squadify measures that you can work on.
00:26:59 Denise:
Because I feel like when you have that foundation of Squadify and can keep going back to the data, that makes a huge difference.
00:27:06 Denise:
And I would say that most of the school districts having that data and actual data points to look at has been a huge
00:27:13 Denise:
tool for them to be able to look at how they actually are progressing.
00:27:17 Kristen:
I think you're right.
00:27:18 Kristen:
Sometimes a team might have a feeling like, I think we're doing okay.
00:27:22 Kristen:
It feels like we're in sync.
00:27:24 Kristen:
But to have those data points either support or maybe cause you to reflect differently, like, oh, maybe we're not as in sync or maybe we're not doing this than we really thought we were.
00:27:35 Kristen:
How do we get to that point is helpful.
00:27:38 Denise:
I just wanted to share that.
00:27:41 Denise:
I think leaders such as Kristen are maybe few and far between who are willing to look at the data and when they are the leader, if things aren't going well, they actually want to know that and improve it versus
00:27:54 Denise:
sweep it under the rug.
00:27:55 Denise:
I don't have time to think about that.
00:27:57 Denise:
And so I really applaud her and others in the education game right now who are taking the time, listening and wanting to know how their teams are doing because they are the leaders that are going to be successful for their kids in the future, especially with all the change we have right now.
00:28:13 Dan:
It's really interesting that this was not a remedial exercise by any means.
00:28:18 Dan:
this was something that was going well and Kristen, you still thought, right, I'm going to get help and we're going to do this with our team.
00:28:25 Dan:
My interpretation would be that's driven out of that sense of purpose of responsibility for the community, that wherever you are, you just want to do better and refine that.
00:28:33 Dan:
Would that be a reasonable interpretation?
00:28:35 Dan:
The reason I'm saying that is we talk to teams a lot about their purpose and it can look soft and unnecessary even when you're in these hard environments, but it sounds like that's really driven you onto a sort of path of improvement.
00:28:48 Kristen:
I think that's accurate.
00:28:49 Kristen:
I mean, to me, it's always about how do we improve student outcomes.
00:28:54 Kristen:
And so, our students come to us sometimes with lots of challenges in their life and sometimes with lots of positive experiences.
00:29:04 Kristen:
And no matter how they come to us, it's our job to take them where they are and elevate them to a new place and improve their outcomes.
00:29:12 Kristen:
And so myself, my colleagues, we take that to heart.
00:29:16 Kristen:
For me personally, I know
00:29:18 Kristen:
I'm retiring in four years and I want to leave the district better than where it was when I came into the district.
00:29:27 Kristen:
And I don't want the students, staff, the community to miss a beat because there's a change in leadership in four years.
00:29:34 Dan:
Wonderful, wonderful.
00:29:35 Dan:
Kristen, I just wanted to geek out a little bit about teamwork.
00:29:38 Dan:
You've used the word in sync quite a bit, which I think is such a sort of natural, understandable expression, but you also said obviously people can disagree.
00:29:48 Dan:
Talk to us about what InSync means and when you know it's happening sufficiently.
00:29:53 Dan:
As you say, there's always discussion, but that really struck me as a great way to talk about a goal of a team to be.
00:30:00 Dan:
What is it to you?
00:30:01 Dan:
What does that look like?
00:30:02 Kristen:
To me, it's, you know, we all know what the goals are that we're working towards, and we are all doing our part, moving kind of the best forward, so to speak, to reach those goals.
00:30:14 Kristen:
And ultimately, all of our goals
00:30:16 Kristen:
are about students and bettering those outcomes for students.
00:30:20 Kristen:
But if two departments are making progress towards the goals and then the rest of the team isn't focused on that, we're not going to get very far because it really takes all of us to be moving in that same direction.
00:30:35 Kristen:
Sometimes someone might be kind of in the lead, kind of leading the charge, and that's okay.
00:30:40 Kristen:
Sometimes someone on the team might raise questions and say, wait a minute, I'm not sure that we're going down the right
00:30:46 Kristen:
path right now to achieve this goal.
00:30:48 Kristen:
That's healthy.
00:30:50 Kristen:
But we all need to be working towards achieving the goal, making progress.
00:30:55 Kristen:
Gosh, I mean, our team, we're all passionate about helping students and all students, you know, students from all different types of groups and backgrounds and experiences.
00:31:06 Kristen:
We all come with different experiences.
00:31:08 Kristen:
And I think that's the beauty of a really healthy team too, in that we all have different experiences we can draw on.
00:31:16 Kristen:
know that I don't have to be the expert in everything.
00:31:18 Kristen:
You know what?
00:31:19 Kristen:
My CFO, he is really that expert in finance.
00:31:23 Kristen:
And I can go to him and say, hey, I think we ought to do this.
00:31:27 Kristen:
What do you think that does to our budget?
00:31:30 Kristen:
Or I can raise questions or concerns if I see something that doesn't look or seem right.
00:31:36 Kristen:
So can any other member of the team.
00:31:38 Kristen:
And so we're all pretty humble in that, yes, we have expertise,
00:31:44 Kristen:
but we don't have to be the expert in everything all the time.
00:31:47 Pia:
I think that's fascinating because again, that expertise myth is what caps leadership.
00:31:53 Pia:
You can have a leader, but they don't necessarily demonstrate leadership.
00:31:57 Pia:
That's the capacity to multiply the capability of the people around you, not to be the expert.
00:32:03 Pia:
But again, culturally, institutionally, our egos are quite fragile, we've all got them.
00:32:09 Pia:
So we think that to be good at this job, we need to know all the answers and in actual fact,
00:32:14 Pia:
education across the public and private sector in corporations, it doesn't build that capability across the organization.
00:32:23 Pia:
So it's such a fundamental thing that you're talking about.
00:32:25 Pia:
And with the complexity of the role that you have, you can't be in every place and every time, you'll burn out.
00:32:32 Kristen:
And we all have different perspectives, which is really, I think, something to celebrate, because then we can try to look through the lens of all of the students and families that we serve.
00:32:43 Kristen:
Wonderful.
00:32:45 Dan:
Wonderful.
00:32:45 Dan:
Thank you, Kristen.
00:32:46 Dan:
I'm going to ask you both now a little top tip question.
00:32:51 Dan:
Starting to you, Denise, you've learned a lot through your own leadership and consulting and coaching on leadership.
00:32:55 Dan:
What's your tip for a leader or a team to just take a step in the right direction?
00:33:01 Denise:
You know, I think so much of the work we need to get done, I talked about earlier, there can be lots of conversation, but how do you actually implement so it has an impact?
00:33:10 Denise:
And I think there are tools out there that help us do that, but it's
00:33:15 Denise:
moving from discussion and thinking about to actually having a design and action to make an impact.
00:33:23 Denise:
Too often we talk about it and it's kind of that notion of fail fast.
00:33:27 Denise:
Think about it, go try something.
00:33:29 Denise:
If it doesn't work, don't keep doing it for a year or two more.
00:33:32 Denise:
Hope it works out.
00:33:33 Denise:
Change something.
00:33:34 Dan:
Perfect.
00:33:36 Dan:
So many times we see teams having a discussion about something and then it sort of stops.
00:33:40 Dan:
They move on to the next item.
00:33:42 Dan:
Nothing's come out of it.
00:33:43 Dan:
So yeah, taking action is the key.
00:33:45 Denise:
It keeps coming back in the discussion.
00:33:47 Dan:
Yeah, exactly.
00:33:49 Dan:
Kristen, what's your recommended baby step for teams or leaders?
00:33:53 Kristen:
I probably can't narrow it down to one, so I'm going to share two.
00:33:56 Kristen:
One is be true to yourself as a leader.
00:33:59 Kristen:
I respect Denise, but if I try to do everything the exact same way that Denise would do it,
00:34:05 Kristen:
That's not true to who I am because it's hard to mimic someone.
00:34:09 Kristen:
You might be able to do it for a little while.
00:34:10 Kristen:
So you have to be true to yourself, make sure that the decisions, the actions you take are in line with who you are.
00:34:17 Kristen:
That's an integrity piece for me.
00:34:20 Kristen:
But then the other piece, I would really echo a little bit of what Denise has.
00:34:25 Kristen:
It's great to talk, but at some point you have to execute and show progress on, okay, is this something that we should continue down the path doing?
00:34:35 Kristen:
Or do we need to pause, tweak what we're doing a little bit or abandon it and try something different?
00:34:42 Kristen:
And that's okay.
00:34:44 Dan:
I can see why the two of you get on and have built an incredibly productive relationship.
00:34:50 Dan:
It's admirable.
00:34:51 Dan:
Final, final question for each of you.
00:34:53 Dan:
A media recommendation.
00:34:54 Dan:
You know, we like to hear this, whether work or play, anything, podcast, series, book.
00:35:00 Dan:
Why don't we go in reverse order, Kristen?
00:35:02 Dan:
What's your media reco?
00:35:04 Kristen:
I am a huge Hoda Kopi fan.
00:35:06 Kristen:
So Hoda Kopi was on the Today Show.
00:35:09 Kristen:
I love her books, her podcasts, but my favorite book is called I Really Needed This Today.
00:35:15 Kristen:
And they're just really short little stories that you can read one a day.
00:35:21 Kristen:
And as a mom, as a wife, as a grandma, as a school leader, there are lots of stressors in life.
00:35:28 Kristen:
And I found it inspirational, it made me laugh, sometimes I cried.
00:35:34 Kristen:
perfect type of book for me.
00:35:35 Kristen:
That's wonderful.
00:35:36 Dan:
I'm going to track that down.
00:35:37 Dan:
The link will be in the show notes for that.
00:35:39 Dan:
That sounds really good.
00:35:41 Dan:
And Denise?
00:35:42 Denise:
I'm chuckling because when Kristen said that, I learn as much from her every time we chat as she does from me.
00:35:48 Denise:
And so I appreciate that, Kristen.
00:35:51 Denise:
I think I find that as well.
00:35:52 Denise:
I would say one of the things when I'm working with leaders right now that I've really appreciated is pushing my thinking is a book called The One Percenters: How to Get Things Done Now.
00:36:03 Denise:
It's just
00:36:04 Denise:
recently been published by a colleague of mine.
00:36:07 Denise:
In fact, Darrell Mann is one of the authors and Shannon Finnegan is the other.
00:36:11 Denise:
Darrell is out of the UK.
00:36:13 Denise:
He owns and runs a company for many years called Systematic Innovation and works with top 50 Fortune companies all over the world.
00:36:21 Denise:
But it is about creating that good team and being so specific in the future of knowing exactly what that team needs to look like to be able to actually achieve implementation.
00:36:31 Denise:
and impact.
00:36:33 Denise:
So it's really pushing my thinking about how to think of a team and create that.
00:36:37 Denise:
So with Squadify, using that with leaders and then some of the work from their book, I think it's really helping me think about
00:36:45 Denise:
doing things differently for the future.
00:36:47 Dan:
Wonderful.
00:36:47 Dan:
Fantastic.
00:36:48 Dan:
Yeah, thank you.
00:36:49 Dan:
I know Peter and I will be tracking both of those down.
00:36:51 Dan:
And again, that'll be in the show notes as well.
00:36:53 Dan:
But thank you.
00:36:54 Dan:
Thank you both for being on We're Not Me today.
00:36:57 Dan:
So inspiring the work that you're both doing to make a difference to so many thousands of people.
00:37:02 Kristen:
Thank you.
00:37:03 Pia:
Yeah, I think there'll be lots of people both who have children in the US public school system, but also outside of it that will really take some amazing nuggets out of this.
00:37:12 Pia:
But also, you know, congratulations for the work
00:37:15 Pia:
that you've done and the support that you're giving to all those thousands of kids in your district.
00:37:19 Pia:
So thank you so much.
00:37:22 Kristen:
Thank you.
00:37:22 Dan:
So I was having a conversation with someone at the weekend and you two of personifying this that it takes people have to step up to make a difference and you've both done that and it's an act of real courage.
00:37:32 Dan:
So thank you for sharing that with us today.
00:37:34 Dan:
So good to have you on the show.
00:37:35 Kristen:
Thank you.
00:37:36 Pia:
It's been a pleasure.
00:37:37 Kristen:
Thank you for the opportunity.
00:37:41 Pia:
I thought it was really interesting that Denise said that Kristen was one of the fewer superintendents that really jumped at the idea of building out her team.
00:37:51 Pia:
And it's a leadership myth that one person has all the answers.
00:37:55 Pia:
And I think there's an interesting intersection between the assumption of power and the responsibility of that and the anxiety that it creates.
00:38:03 Pia:
And sometimes leaders can inadvertently grip everything and you're trying to lead through a hub and spoke.
00:38:11 Pia:
And that leader is that hub and that central rather than building out.
00:38:15 Pia:
She saw this is complex, multiple stakeholders, multiple different functions.
00:38:22 Pia:
I need a team.
00:38:23 Pia:
I need a team that can own this.
00:38:25 Dan:
Immensely complicated.
00:38:27 Dan:
That was stunning.
00:38:28 Dan:
You think about how many people there are in the US in her position.
00:38:31 Dan:
These are just under recognised CEOs of huge complex ecosystems and serving the most precious group in our society, even
00:38:41 Dan:
transport for that school would be beyond a lot of people.
00:38:46 Dan:
Yeah, it's immense.
00:38:47 Dan:
And I think, as you say, it's very easy as a leader to suck up responsibility, see all the complexity and try to deal with it yourself instead of getting people around you.
00:38:56 Dan:
And that first step, as Denise said, is say, no, this isn't just about me.
00:38:59 Dan:
I think then the thing that came up time and again from Kristen was, how do you see through that complexity?
00:39:06 Dan:
It's about purpose.
00:39:06 Dan:
What are we here for?
00:39:08 Dan:
I think I said when we're chatting with the two of them that we do
00:39:11 Dan:
do a lot of work around purpose with teams.
00:39:13 Dan:
And I must admit, sometimes you sort of think in a time of tasks and getting things done and pressure, is this still relevant?
00:39:21 Dan:
but absolutely it is because sometimes think about the sort of map and the compass.
00:39:26 Dan:
Things are so foggy, you can't see the ground.
00:39:28 Dan:
Your map isn't that useful anymore, but your compass, your purpose is so, is vital and keeps everyone moving in the same direction.
00:39:35 Dan:
She's really got that.
00:39:36 Pia:
And I think that you don't realise you're in an insider, an institution and
00:39:41 Pia:
are an institution and you've got the authority of a teacher, essentially.
00:39:47 Pia:
And so that creates a power distance from everybody and therefore they're not likely to step up.
00:39:54 Pia:
And then the leader then feels they have to do even more and it's bestowed on them to come up with even more answers.
00:40:01 Pia:
So it's a self-perpetuating.
00:40:02 Pia:
Yeah, it is.
00:40:03 Dan:
System, that one.
00:40:04 Pia:
Totally.
00:40:05 Dan:
And the models we see in the media of leadership are about great man, mostly, but the
00:40:12 Dan:
You and I talking the morning after England's defeat in the semi-finals of the football.
00:40:18 Dan:
So well done them.
00:40:19 Dan:
Got to the semi-final of the World Cup, something that very few people could manage.
00:40:23 Dan:
Amazing.
00:40:23 Dan:
But I read a couple of years ago, Leading by Sir Alex Ferguson, you know, all about, and I thought this would be really interesting, a different view on leadership.
00:40:31 Dan:
It's no view on leadership at all.
00:40:33 Dan:
It's just about him being a sole genius, making decisions about the team.
00:40:37 Dan:
And I honestly learned nothing about leadership and a lot about football.
00:40:41 Dan:
technicalities and choosing people.
00:40:43 Dan:
Do you know what I mean?
00:40:44 Dan:
And so again, it was sort of this genius guy who was amazing as a football manager, it seems, but he wasn't really leading.
00:40:51 Dan:
He was just making decisions.
00:40:53 Dan:
And again, we hold these people up.
00:40:54 Dan:
So I think people need to reject all of that and just see these people like Kristen and like Denise who are about distributing that leadership and getting a lot done in really complex situations.
00:41:07 Pia:
I've used this work a lot.
00:41:08 Pia:
Liz Wiseman published a book called Multipliers.
00:41:12 Pia:
And I think this is about 20 years ago and it's even more relevant than ever was.
00:41:16 Pia:
And so the simple part of it is you've got the opportunity to multiply your impact and multiply the impact of others around you by the way that you behave.
00:41:26 Pia:
Or you become a diminisher or an accidental diminisher.
00:41:30 Pia:
You can give yourself that you weren't really intending to do it and so that's an accidental, but I think for some people it's quite conscious.
00:41:36 Pia:
But really you do, you can either halve the output of others or you can double it.
00:41:42 Pia:
conscious choice.
00:41:43 Pia:
And I think that's so relevant in this situation because she's serving 13,000 students and that's the sole focus.
00:41:50 Pia:
And there are multiple touch points to that.
00:41:53 Pia:
So, I mean, this is something that when you're looking to create a transformation across a whole educational institution, I think she's absolutely trailblazing the way.
00:42:02 Pia:
Yeah.
00:42:03 Dan:
And I love that Liz Wiseman accidental diminisher.
00:42:06 Dan:
It does give us a get out, but most people don't mean to do it.
00:42:09 Dan:
And it's coming from a good, you know, it's an overplayed
00:42:12 Dan:
strength or coming from good intent.
00:42:14 Dan:
And one of them is, I feel really responsible, so I'm going to get involved in all of this.
00:42:18 Dan:
But what you're actually doing is halving the capacity of the organization.
00:42:21 Dan:
And in this case, you would be halving the impact you can have on 13,000 students.
00:42:26 Dan:
So this is not a sort of nice to have fun thing you learned on a leadership program.
00:42:31 Dan:
It's absolutely about impact.
00:42:33 Dan:
Wonderful.
00:42:34 Dan:
A huge thanks to Kristen and Denise for coming on the show and sharing that what a world they inhabit and what an impact they have.
00:42:41 Dan:
Absolutely wonderful.
00:42:42 Dan:
That is it for this episode.
00:42:44 Dan:
You'll find show notes at squadify.net.
00:42:46 Dan:
And if this sparks something for you, know the drill.
00:42:49 Dan:
Take one small action with your team this week that's going to make a difference.
00:42:52 Dan:
Win Not Me is brought to you by Squadify, helping organizations to transform through teams.
00:42:57 Dan:
Thank you so much for listening.
00:42:58 Dan:
It's goodbye from me.
00:43:00 Pia:
And it's goodbye from me.