Understanding Equine Behaviour For Happier Horses

Show Notes

This month we are joined by Gemma Pearson, the Director of Equine Behaviour at
The Horse Trust and Veterinary Liaison Officer for the International Society for
Equitation Science.

We discuss how Gemma got into equine behaviour and how we can better support
students in regard to behavioural training. Gemma was heavily involved in the BEVA
campaign ‘Don’t Break Your Vet’, so we reflect on its success and why it’s important
to take equine veterinarians' safety seriously.

We dispel some common myths about equine behaviour and treatment, with a
particular focus on the effects of box rest, medications and behavioural motivations.

Gemma shares her knowledge of the three F’s of a horse's physiological needs, the
impact they can have on a horse's stress response and how we define a happy
horse. Lastly, we discuss how to approach tricky clients in difficult situations and the
use of whips in equine sports.


Useful Links:

Don’t Break Your Vet - YouTube Playlist:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZLor1KlzkI9X1UpvbOxwllS1BNoLvcmR

Book Equine Behaviour Consultations With Gemma:
https://www.ed.ac.uk/vet/services/equine-services/hospital/equinebehaviour

Join us each month for a new episode of The KBHH Equine Vets Podcast and stay informed on the latest developments in equine health and wellness. To get in touch with the show, please email [e-mail].

What is The KBHH Equine Vets Podcast?

Welcome to The KBHH Equine Vets Podcast, brought to you by MSD Animal Health.
 
Join our expert hosts, Dr. Ebony Escalona and Dr. Naomi Mellor, both experienced equine veterinarians, each month as they bring you informative and engaging discussions about all things equine health and wellness. 

The KBHH Equine Vets Podcast is aimed at vets who want to know more about how to look at things differently in equine, from what ‘flexing’ could mean as an equine vet, to the latest technology developments and looking after your own wellbeing. Ebony and Naomi will share the exciting developments within the equine world that our guests are leading in. With a focus on looking at life in equine practice through a different lens, our podcast will feature interviews with leading experts in their field. Whether you are a seasoned equine vet or a GP vet looking to expand your knowledge of equine medicine, our podcast will provide you with valuable insights and information.

So, join us each month for a new episode of The KBHH Equine Vets Podcast and stay informed on the latest developments in equine health and wellness. To get in touch with the show, please email [e-mail].

Blaise Scott-Morris: Hello and
welcome to the KBHH podcast,

where we are looking at doing
things differently in the equine

industry, from new technologies,
to equine behaviour to wellbeing

within equine practice, we've
got something for you. So sit

back, relax, and I hope you
enjoy the show.

Ebony Escalona: And we're
absolutely delighted to have the

almighty Gemma Pearson join us
for this episode of the podcast.

This is certainly someone that I
have been dying to get into the

hot seat as she is one a person
that I think champions one of

the most important welfare
aspects of Equine, and that's

all around behaviour. So Gemma,
thank you for being here, I'd

love to kick off with what made
you think this behavioural

niche, this is where I want to
head with my kind of equine

passport?

Gemma Pearson: So actually, that
goes back quite a long way. I

didn't get into vet school until
my third attempt. And in that

time, I ended up working for an
equine vet as a PA. And seeing

all of these really stressed
horses that were needle shy, the

ones that wouldn't load and
everyone was frustrated at the

end of the day, and thinking we
can do this better, surely we

can do something better. So
that's where it really started,

and it's just ballooned from
there.

Ebony Escalona: Seeing that
before coming into veterinary

must have been pretty powerful.
Because, I must say I'm only

speaking from my experience, I
can't speak for Naomi and

others. But we didn't get much
behavioural training, you know,

in our undergrad degree at all.
It's only when I moved into a

welfare charity that I even had
my eyes opened to some of it.

What are your thoughts on that
in terms of how we can maybe

support those students a bit
more?

Gemma Pearson: Well, that is
something that we're trying to

do a lot better nowadays.
Certainly, I was the same, we

had very little behavioural
training at all. And what we did

have was all about physical
restraint of horses. There

wasn't any real behaviour
training in there, and certainly

not learning theory. But I think
now we've moved forward a long

way. So obviously, I'm employed
by the horse trust, but based at

the University of Edinburgh, and
I now teach the students in

first, second, fourth and final
year. So they get it integrated

throughout the course. And I
think most of the vet schools

now are doing things. I'm also
aware that BVA have some ideas

about moving forwards and making
sure that anyone that's teaching

our undergraduate students has
at least an adequate knowledge

of how horses learn.

Naomi Mellor: You mentioned BVA
there and doing some learning.

And lots of people will be aware
of the don't break your vet

campaign which was going on with
BVA that you were very much

involved with this, there's some
brilliant videos for anyone that

hasn't seen them. Looking back
on that now, with the benefit of

hindsight, which as we know is
always 2020 What are your sort

of reflections on that as a
campaign and how well it's

worked or otherwise?

Gemma Pearson: I've been
astounded, actually, by how much

uptake it has had. And you never
know, with these things, BVA had

not done anything along those
lines previously. So whether it

would just go out and you know,
people not watch it. But

actually, I've had so many
people come up to me, both vets

saying, you know, this horse has
always been difficult and

dangerous, and now it's stands
still. But also horse owners

saying my vet sent me to, to
watch these videos, I have done.

We've got some things going, now
we need help to move forward. So

I think they've got 1000s and
1000s of views. I think it was a

really good way of reaching a
massive audience.

Ebony Escalona: If kind of money
and time was no object and you

could wave a magic wand and kind
of build on that. What else

would you kind of add or think
we could do as a whole

profession, be it BVA or
otherwise, that we could build

on from this?

Gemma Pearson: I can almost
split that into two different

aspects. So obviously the don't
break your vet was literally in

response to the appalling
numbers of injuries that vets

receive. And I found that in
some of my own MSC work, 81% of

vets have sustained at least one
injury in the last five years.

As a consequence of the horses
behaviour, you know, not due to

anything else. That just has to
be integrated from day one in

vet school. This is how we deal
with anxious horses. But then

the wider part of that is we
need to recognise it as its own

speciality, you can become an
accredited behaviourist. Now

there is a European college but
you know there's almost a danger

and so many of them are related
to pain. I think what we don't

want to do is just leave it to
kind of non vets and there's

some great none vet
behaviourists but have no

ownership of this have no
involvement in it until later

down the line.

Naomi Mellor: I think one of the
things that I often reflect on

Gemma as well is the, how often
the behaviour of the horse

creates stress and sometimes
confrontation for the owner,

that feeling when you're a young
vet in particular that a naughty

horse that you can't deal with
often leaves that kind of bad

impression for the owner as
well. You know that thing of

well, your boss never has this
problem or whatever. And I was

just wondering what your advice
was to vets who go where quite

clearly the owner is really
scared of that horse as well.

And in terms of just situation
management, I think with those

as well, because as you get
older and you get more

experienced, you learn how to
deal with those. But I think at

the beginning of your career, it
can be really intimidating to

deal with that.

Gemma Pearson: Yes, I'm gonna
start, I'm gonna tell you a

little story. And this is one of
the nicest emails I ever

received. It was a vet student
that had left and gone into a

new job. And on her first day,
in her new job, she was sent out

to vaccinate this horse. And
they said, We're so sorry, we're

having to send you out, the
client is going to be difficult.

She only accepts the practice
partner, the horse is very

needle shy, but he's been called
to an emergency, the vaccine

lapses today, you know, you just
need to go do it. So she turned

up on the yard, and the client
was furious that it wasn't the

partner and said, You will never
manage this, you know, it's only

through his size and strength
that he manages it, you're going

to have one shot at this horse.
And you know, I don't say it's

going to happen. And she said,
Okay, she's, well, we've

actually been taught a bit about
behaviour in vet school. So why

don't I do some of the things
we've done, and we'll see how we

get on. So she used learning
theory, she used a bit of

behaviour modification. And this
pony stood on a loose lead rope

and had its vaccine. And then
she drove back to the practice.

And the practice manager said,
Can you please come into the

office for a second, and she
thought oh no, what's happened

now? But they actually said,
we've had Mrs. X on the phone.

And she rang up as soon as you
left to say she has never been

as impressed with a young vet in
her life. And you're welcome

back to do anything with any of
her horses. So yeah, it's really

difficult as a new grad. And I'm
not saying everyone should have

perfect behaviour skills with
every horse that's unrealistic,

but the more with we can get
these things into play, the

happier owners are. I think one
thing that can be useful to

start off with, is when you
first go in, and you can see

that owner is anxious, just
chatting to them. And if you

can, give the horse a scratch.
And if you can just spend a bit

of time either slowly stroking
or scratching the horse so that

it's lips starting to twitch,
and it's pushing into your

little bit, you can ask the
owner about like what the

children were doing at pony club
or how they've got on at the

last dressage test, or you know,
something that's going to keep

them chatting for a little
while. And you tend to find once

they start to talk about
something else there, they

relax, you're given a horse a
scratch, so the horse relaxes.

And then the owner recognises
that the horse is calm, and it's

just really settled that
situation down.

Ebony Escalona: I'm like fist
pumping in the air here at that

email. That is just, what a
legacy you're leaving in your

team Gemma, in the next
generation, having that

capability, I mean, you know,
confidence in that first year

and building that is so
important. And that would have

been such a stepping stone and
such a milestone for that vet.

So if we build then on scenarios
that you've just shared there,

let's talk about some of the
myth busting that still kind of

going on within the behavioural
world of Equine. And you raised

a really good point Gemma around
that the whole box rest

isolation and keeping that that
horse happy. I don't know if you

want to expand on that scenario
for us?

Gemma Pearson: Yeah, so I think
we need to remember that horses

are horses, they have innate
physiological needs, we call

them the three F's, friends,
forage and freedom. And if we

remove those, it drives a
physiological stress response.

And if you've got that stress
response, you become more

dangerous, you're more likely to
react to things in the

environment that you wouldn't
otherwise. So I've actually got

one of my MSc students who's
also a vet, she's fabulous.

She's going to look into box
rest, so look forward to you

know, some surveys hitting the
road soon. But I know of so many

people, mainly owners that are
injured through dealing with

horses on box rest, and I think
it very depends on the scenario

you're in. So if you are in new
market on a racing yard, and

most things don't get turned
out, and they're handled by

professionals, they do box rest,
all the other horses are in,

then they go on the walker, then
you know, they can control the

environment. But actually, when
you go into a normal livery

yard, you put these horses on
box rest, it causes a massive

stress response, which the
owners find incredibly

stressful, but you also got what
we call post inhibitory rebound.

So if this horse hasn't been
able to exercise freely, the

first time they get an
opportunity, which may be when

you're leading them out doing it
in hand walking, they explode,

and someone sent me a picture
just two days ago about a horse

that they were walking around
the arena because it was pretty

hot for being on box rest, and
jumped in came down and

destroyed the fencing. I know
someone else that was 16 years

old and had a really nice
Appaloosa, really quiet sensible

riding club type, that was doing
in hand walking post tendon

injury, and some other horses
cantered across a field and he

just lept in the air and bucked
and he wasn't aware where she

was, you know, there was no
malice in it. But he kicked her

in the on the cheek and she now
has a metal plate in her cheek.

The other thing is we've had a
few vets injured and I see this

around the UK of horses that
come into new yards, they have

to go in an isolation field with
no other horses until they've

had these blood samples. And an
animal that maybe was a little

bit nervous but was fine for its
first blood sample. Now injures

someone when they try and take
the second one because it's in

an environment that it can't
cope with. So, yeah, we really

need to start thinking about
horses being horses and think,

What can we do to make these
scenarios better for them? And

how can we minimise them?

Naomi Mellor: It's amazing when
you then start talking to people

about the after effects of box
rest, because actually, the

first time people put them out
in the paddock, and they have

that rebound, they go completely
mental, even if they haven't

gone mental in hands and injured
somebody which obviously is a

risk, definitely risk of undoing
all of the good effects of their

box risk by just that
behavioural response that they

have to freedom, which is
completely normal when you think

about it.

Gemma Pearson: Yeah, and I see
quite a few owners now as well,

whereby there's been a breakdown
in the relationship between them

and the horse, or the horse has
change personality, after being

on box rest, you know, they're
more anxious, or you definitely

see that that difference in
their interactions with people.

So I think there's some long
term consequences that, Yeah,

even if the tendon hass healed,
or the wound is healed in how we

managing in these cases.

Ebony Escalona: What can we as
veterinary professionals be

advising our owners or perhaps
supporting in maybe changing

tweaking some of that management
to help with those three F's?

Gemma Pearson: I guess one
environmental enrichment is

something which is becoming much
more popular in the equine

behaviour world now. And just
trying to give them something to

keep their brain engaged.
Another one is just really

thinking about managing the
environment. So if they have to

be on box rest, can you tie
another horse up next to them so

they can mutually groom it? We
know when they do that it

activates the parasympathetic
nervous system, so it's helping

you know, this is a
physiological need for them. Can

we alter the stables so they can
access other horses? Or even can

we build a pen outside so they
can just wander in and out and

slowly make that pen bigger? If
it's big enough, and if they're,

you know, the right temperament
can another has been with them

rather than being on their own?
And then finally, so you

mentioned myth busting earlier,
I'm gonna bust another myth. And

that's the ACP is an anxiolytic.
And that is something that we're

all taught when we're at vet
school, you know, ACP reduce

anxiety, but we know that it's a
dopamine antagonist. And there's

actually a position statement
out now from a group of small

animal behaviourists in Europe
to say that ACP is contra

indicated, where anxiety is a
case. So whilst I'm not saying

we should never use ACP, I think
we need to recognise that it

doesn't take away that anxiety,
it doesn't change how the animal

feels. If anything by blocking
dopamine, it may reduce their

ability for happiness and
positive interactions. So if I

do use ACP, I do use it with a
drug which targets anxiety as

well. And I think we need to
start thinking about using these

on box rest more, as well as
really, really thinking how long

do I have to have this horse on
box rest for how, how restricted

does it have to be?

Naomi Mellor: It's a really
interesting debate that isn't it

because I, having had some
injuries myself, when you go to

talk to human physiotherapists,
the last thing they want you

doing is nothing. And actually,
even with ligament and tendon

injuries, they have you
exercising pretty much from day

one. So I think it does beg the
question of is it the right

thing we should be doing from a
rehab perspective, anyway, tied

in with the kind of
environmental and behavioural

aspects of that. And one thing
you just mentioned, Gemma, which

I wanted to pick up was the word
happy. And I was wondering how

we define a happy horse or how
you would help people to

understand what that means,
particularly in the context of

horses that maybe don't go out
as much, you know, so I'm

talking high level competition
horses, riding school horses,

can you just expand on that a
little bit for us?

Gemma Pearson: Yes. So again,
there's probably a couple of

different things within that
question. One is how do we

measure happiness? Now,
obviously, really, the only way

you could measure it would be to
ask them, which we can't. But

even then, you know, you can ask
people, and it's not 100%

foolproof, because people can
lie. So really, we're never

going to be able to measure
something like that perfectly.

But we shouldn't let perfect be
the enemy of good. We do have

some good tools now. And whereby
we can start to have some idea

about what emotions animals may
be feeling. They're definitely

more blunt. They're definitely
more, Is it positive or

negative? What's the level of
arousal? But we do have some

ideas now about how they're
feeling. So we need to start to

use these to measure them. The
other one is to think about,

with these long term aspects,
such as horses that are on box

rest long term, I think it can
be much harder to actually look

at those and determine whether
they're happy or not, because

they often look well. But
actually, on a physiological

basis. A lot of these animals
still have a more active stress

response than they would do
otherwise. And there was a

really interesting study which
was looking at mice. So I

apologise if I'm digressing a
little bit here, but it's one of

those things that just makes you
think. And they we're looking at

mice which were in kind of
standard barren cages or ones

with lots of enrichment, lots of
places to hide and investigate.

And one of the behaviours they
were looking at was lying awake.

And I think they call it active
but awake behaviours in mice.

Now, that is not normal for
mice. Mice run around, they

scurry around, they investigate,
and then they sleep. And then

they scurry around, investigate,
and then they sleep. And there's

very short periods of times
where they will lay there with

their eyes open, but not doing
anything. And of course, the

ones in the barren cages, they
did find that they were spending

prolonged periods of times doing
this now, for all intents and

purposes, they looked happy.
They weren't grimacing, they

didn't look upset. But what they
showed was that if you give them

antidepressants, they don't
offer that behaviour anymore.

They scurry around and form all
of these normal mice behaviours.

So I think just because the
horse stands there, and it's hay

net, and kind of, you know,
maybe now it's ears pricked, it

doesn't necessarily mean that
we're providing the best life

for them possible. And as we
said, friends forage and

freedom. In terms of freedom
horses, normally, you know,

we'll take a couple of bites and
a step, a couple of bites, and a

step, they're constantly moving.
And don't get me wrong. You

know, I live in Scotland in the
middle of winter when it's minus

16. And theres four foot of
snow, bringing horses in

overnight to eat and stay dry is
perfectly sensible. I'm not

saying never use stabling, but
just making sure that they do

have that opportunity to go out
and do what they need to do. We

can also look at things like
choice and preference testing.

And we have shown that horses
will work quite hard in terms of

how many times they'll push a
button and other things, to be

able to access a field, even
when they've got adequate feed.

And you know, the weather is
nicer in the stable. I also I've

seen so many older horses, even
you know slim thoroughbreds that

they don't suffer from arthritis
and stiffness as much. If

they're out full time and they
keep moving. They seem to do so

much better.

Ebony Escalona: Gemma, we've
spoken a little bit about myth

busting there. I really love
that exploration on what happy

is. I'd like to come back a
little bit maybe to mythbusting

or more to educate our listeners
and maybe give our listeners

some tips on how to talk to
owners around the word dominant,

naughty. My horse is this, my
horse is that and I'd love you

to expand on that.

Gemma Pearson: Yeah, so you
know, we all know now, horses

don't see us as other animals to
be dominant other. We also,

dominance even between horses is
really complex. And it's

normally more about a bilateral
relationship over a specific

resource. And actually, in
groups, you might go that horse

is done over that one. But
actually, for a different

resource, a different one is
dominant over the one you

thought was, was top of the
pack. So in terms of how horse

interaction with humans, we know
that dominance isn't an aspect

there. And we also know that
horses are not naughty, you

know, you get the behaviour you
reinforce not the one you want.

So it my classic example of a
naughty pony would be the pony

that when it's ridden by a small
child, puts his head down and

eats grass. And if it's ridden
by a small adult, it doesn't.

That that just comes back to
whatever behaviour is reinforced

because the small child can't
stop the pony putting his head

down. And these ponies are offen
on restricted grazing anyway. So

when it does and gets lush
grass, we're just reinforcing,

you know that the undesired
behaviour. So I think trying to

help owners and also making
owners, almost taking a little

bit of responsibility away from
them, because people are really

embarrassed if the horse isn't
behaving well. And, you know, at

the same time, I think they need
more responsibility to train

them, but actually saying to
owners well, actually, I don't

think he's being naughty. What
else might be motivating this

behaviour? Could it be fear?
It's often fear in these cases,

could it be frustration? You
know, could it be something else

that's going on? And then once
you start to understand what's

motivating and what reinforces
the behaviour, rather than

going, how do I stop this horse
doing this? He's being naughty.

You go, Well, how do I train the
horse to, for example, stand

still? So the classic example of
the needle shy horse. Everyone's

obsessed with trying to stop
them from rearing. But actually,

rather than trying to do that,
which physically we can't do

very effectively, if you think,
how do I train him to stand

still, then you've got the horse
to want to not rear because it

wants to stand still. It's more
a salient thing for it. And then

we've got happier horses and
happier owners and once I get

them to make that mind shift a
little bit. We start making some

good progress.

Naomi Mellor: And what about the
the pony that pops his head down

with a little child because I
think that is such a difficult

one for kids especially to deal
with and there'd be lots of

people listening to this. You've
probably got kids and ponies.

And they can't you know if
they're laminitic or you know,

let's face it, obesity is a
massive problem. If they haven't

got a lot of access to grazing?
What's your advice for those

ones Gem, because I think that's
really tricky. And for the

children, it can be really
frustrating when you're a kid

can't it?

Gemma Pearson: Yeah. And that's
where I think just using like

grass reins, just because it
physically stops them getting to

the grass. And then over time,
don't get me wrong. If you take

the grass reins off, the ponies
going to associate what

behaviours it can perform when
they're on versus off. But

actually, that's one of those
scenarios whereby it would be

really hard and you could, you
know, you could clicker train

these ponies to not put their
heads down. But actually, you'd

have to have a really salient
food source available on quite a

frequent basis. Because even if
you say, well, we're gonna go,

you know, 10 minutes between
giving you a treat, that pony

can get its head down and get a
couple of mouthfulls of lush

grass, it's so salient. It's
just so rewarding, isn't it? So

yeah, I think grass reins or
something like that is great.

Ebony Escalona: As we're kind of
like building on all these

incredible kinds of tips and
science. And we're discussing

behaviour here. Naomi and I were
chatting yesterday, and we're

like it's great, isn't it, in
small animal, you've got like

cat friendly clinics, and now
they're bringing in dog friendly

clinics. Do you think there's a
market or something that we

could actually push to have, you
know, equine friendly clinics,

because it does help to promote
both from the public facing

point of view, but also uphold
kind of our standards and our

policies and our learning of
what is good for welfare?

Gemma Pearson: Yeah, definitely.
And I actually think that it's

already happening, albeit there
maybe isn't a brand name or

something to go with that. But a
lot of people now keep horses as

pets, you know, even up to a
moderate level of competition,

not many people are actually
keeping them to make a living

from the horse. It's a hobby,
and they want that good

relationship with their horse.
And as time has gone on, it's

just people don't tolerate
seeing their animal been hit or

shouted out by a vet, you know,
and it's not nice for anyone,

it's not nice for the vet, for
the horse, for the owner. So

actually, the more vets are
starting to integrate this,

they're the ones that the owners
want to come back to their

horses, you know, and I've seen
owners that will say, Well, I

use that vet in the practice,
even though they're not the

experienced vet, and they maybe
haven't done as many lameness

workups, but they're nice to my
horse. So from a vet point of

view, I think it's a great way,
you know, happy clients are more

likely to pay, they're more
likely to, you know, look after

the vets well, so the more we
build this positive relationship

with them, I think it's a
mutually beneficial situation.

Naomi Mellor: One of the other
things that we wanted to ask you

about Gem was this thorny issue
that we encounter quite often

where the quality of somebody's
riding, or potentially the size

of owner versus horse might be a
little bit disparate, or

mismatched? And I'm sure a lot
of vets would relate to times

when they've thought, yep,
you're the problem there, which

can be really difficult. And I
know, there's been a lot of work

at the, well, you know, what was
the Animal Health Trust about

saddle fit and the way people
sit and those relations to

behaviour and to and to lameness
as well, what's your take on

that? And advice to vets in
dealing with those what can be

very tricky situations maybe?

Gemma Pearson: So it depends
what the issue is. I would often

say years ago, it was these big
warmbloods, that were very

Naomi Mellor: That's such good
advice. Such good advice. And

fashionable, and people that had
a bit more money than you know,

maybe sense would would buy them
because they wanted to do well

at dressage. Now, I'm starting
to see a few more thoroughbreds

with the ROR, because that's
fashionable. So actually kind of

explaining to them about
negative reinforcement or

pressure release, as we would
often call it, and saying, Okay,

well, you know, your horse,
we're having this issue ridden,

let's work through some of it.
So just teaching the horse to

stop and back up off of really
light rein pressure, but then

pointing out to them, well,
actually, that time you use your

actually, I love that analogy
of the Formula One car, when you

rein for balance, you didn't
want the horse to stop, but in

talk about highly tuned
athletes, it's very analogous

another time, you used the same
amount of pressure to ask the

horse to stop. And sometimes
when you kind of go oh, do you

that isn't it?
see there? And they go, oh,

yeah, I use my rein for balance
again. Now, some of these owners

actually improve, they get their
riding better to be able to ride

these horses. But I think

Ebony Escalona: Yeah, I was that
owner seven years ago with that

sometimes, if you kind of doing
it in that direction, they can

come to that conclusion
themselves, you know, and they

may say, What do you think? And
then I'll kind of have the

conversation that it's not that
you're a bad rider. It's just

that this horse has been bred to
be finely tuned, a little bit

like I can't drive a Formula One
car, you know, I can drive

normal cars. I can even drive
fast cars. I like driving fast

cars. But once you start going
up into something that's

designed for someone that just
does this for a living and you

know, and again, saying to them,
you're not a professional rider,

because you're not riding for 10
hours a day. And actually, that

is what these people do to be
able to give the cues so

consistently and clearly to
these high sensitive horses.

They're so finely tuned we need
to do that. So making the owner

feel that it's not their fault
or their bad riding. It's just

that actually this combination
isn't working.

race horse, it's amazing when
you learn what you really should

be doing, versus what you think
you can. But that's great, great

thing about horses, as well is
they are the most wonderful

mirrors, aren't they, they are
our most wonderful teachers, if

you are willing to listen to
what what they are saying and

doing around us. And on that
note, we talk about excessive

restraint, or we think about
restraining, and how we use and

maybe ride these animals, I'd
love to kind of learn a little

bit more about bits and bridles
as well, there's so much good

use that could be done these and
in the wrong hands with the

wrong stuff. It can also be
pretty tragic as well, when we

think about what these things
are doing. I'd love to hear your

thoughts there on perhaps what
we can be learning and

understanding more as a vet
professional and again, how we

can be supporting our owners.

Gemma Pearson: Yeah, so I think
we actually need to move away

from restraining horses and
towards training them to stand

still for procedures. Initially
I'll just talk about the kind of

vet side of it. But I think, you
know, horses are flight animals.

So soon as we restrain them,
that's always going to cause a

mild fear response, even in
really happy horses, calm

horses. So the more restraint
you have, the more fearful that

animal is, and some of these
animals will freeze. So they'll

go into a kind of reactive
coping mechanism. So you know,

you hold a leg up, you put the
twitch on, and they're

absolutely stuck still. But
actually, their fear response is

massive, and then all of a
sudden, they explode out of it.

Whereas trying to get the horse
calm is beneficial. So I

completed my PhD. Finally, and
one of my thesis chapters, which

I'm hoping to publish fairly
soon was actually using

classical canter conditioning
for nerve blocking. So in this,

what we did was it was just
during the preparation phase,

and either the horses were held
as normal, and that may or may

not include feed while the limb
was being prepped, or would

classically canter condition. So
this is kind of Pavlov's dog. So

making associations, and someone
approaching the limb with the

arrival of food. So one of our
students might go in and palpate

the limb, the person holding
them starts trickle feeding

them, they step away from the
limb, the feeding stops, they go

into clip the feeding stops,
they stop clipping the feeding

stops, they're go in to start
scrubbing, feeding starts. And

they'll step away at least three
times during scrubbing for a

block. And very quickly, you get
these animals just looking as

soon as someone comes near their
lane, they think, Oh, wow, here

comes the food. Rather than
thinking oh no, they're going to

stick a needle in me. And the
most interesting aspect of that

was when you looked at horses
that had multiple blocks. And in

the control group, they only
went up to four blocks in the

treatment group, we went up to
eight, but when you looked at

how they were scored over time,
and these were scored by people

that were completely blinded, so
when they had the nerve block,

and that was the only time we
filmed that, well, that wasn't

at the time, that was the only
video footage they saw. And it

was entirely up to the vet doing
the nerve block, so some did

want to put a twitch on or hold
a leg up, some just continued

feeding them. But the people
that were blinded, were able to

separate these groups out and
actually saw that the more nerve

blocks these horses had the
calmer they were getting in the

treatment group, even though
they may have had a twitch on

there may have had a leg up, you
know, they couldn't see which

group they're in because we
weren't doing the process at

that time. So, you know, I think
we've done things the way we've

done them because we've always
done them. And now we need to

start to to look differently.
And then, you know, talk about

bits and bridles and everything
else, the more force you use

that the stronger the bit,
potentially the more pain you're

inflicting. Now, obviously you
have to have an, you've got to

have control of the horse. If
it's not trained to stand still,

then we have to have it standing
still to do things with us. I'm

never going to say these horses
should be trotting around, you

know, the end of the lead rope
like some of the kind of natural

horsemanship things were saying
years ago, that actually the

more we use, the more it
potentially induces pain, and

even in horses that I see for
things like bolting, they go for

stronger and stronger and
stronger bits. But a lot of

these horses are bolting because
of the pain from the bit because

they're confused. And if we go
back to a snaffle, and retrain

that stop and that backup
response using pressure release

negative reinforcement, they
don't bolt anymore.

Ebony Escalona: 100% I think
like you say we've got we've got

a long way to go when we think
about restraint behaviour is

like Dentistry was 10 years ago.
And I think the way you're

discussing now and showcasing,
this science very much very much

proves that. Naomi I know
obviously you're in the racing

world. So I think the next
question needs to come from you

when we talk about the other
bits and bobs that we

occasionally use potentially to
the detriment to the horse.

Naomi Mellor: One of the other
things that Ebs and I were

talking about was the use of the
whip and one of the things I

find interesting is looking at
different people's whips,

because obviously the pro whips
that you use in racing is very

different to, you know, whips
that other people would use in

other disciplines, for example,
and the way that they're used by

people who are of different
skill, a bit like spurs, I think

as well would be similar that
the skill of the user is one of

the kind of big things, how much
do we know about the impact of

the whip on stress, fear, fight
or flight? How much science? I

know there's a bit out there,
but could you just talk a little

bit about the science that we
know about that and what the

differences are across different
disciplines, and I guess where

we think the future will, we'll
go with that really, Gemma?

Gemma Pearson: Yeah, so I think
we need to think about how the

whip is used. So I use a whip,
particularly for dressage,

because it gives you that reach,
you know, if you want the horse

to yield its hind quarters, when
you're first starting to teach

somthing like Treves, that it's
so much more useful to be able

to touch the horse on the hind
quarter if it knows that other

response, as opposed to trying
to do more kind of with your leg

pressure. And there's only so
many places on the horses side,

you can use your leg. So
actually, using the whip on

different parts of the horse's
body can be really useful. I

also use a whip for horses that
don't go forwards from leg

pressure. Because the more the
rider grips and kicks with their

legs, often the more the horse
gets irritated by that. So you

can use it as a novel cue. Now
the key difference here is how

you use it. So if I just flip
from negative to positive

reinforcement for a second. When
we undertake clicker training

with horses, the first ever time
we give the horse that kind of

mouthful of food after the
click, they're not expecting it,

and they get a massive spike of
dopamine in their brain. Same

thing happens to us when we're
gambling, which is why it's so

addictive. Once a horse knows
this, when you press that

clicker, and that horse hears
that sound, that's when it gets

the dopamine spike. It's
rewarding. Dopamine is all about

motivation. So horses continue
to repeat this behaviour. Now,

if you just hit a horse with a
whip, that actually causes a

massive depletion in dopamine.
And it's really random. And it's

not predictable, and it's not
controllable. So predictability

and controllability are really
important for stress in horses.

So let's say instead, I've got
my horse that doesn't go

forward, I get the rider to take
the legs away from the horse's

side, I get them to tap with the
whip really, really lightly. You

know, don't forget that even
horses that are numb to the leg

and you know, have spur marks on
the side, a fly lands on them,

and they twitch their skin. So
this horses sensory nervous

system is not broken, we've just
not trained them as well. So

I'll get them to tap them really
lightly, but really irritatingly

with no rein contact legs away.
And as soon as that horse goes

to take a step forward, we stop
tapping. Now at that point, we

know that the horse gets a
dopamine spike. So you repeat

that and every time the tapping
stops, the horse gets a tiny

spike of dopamine. But after a
few repetitions, when the rider

then goes to use their legs, and
then say, okay, use your leg

lightly. And if they don't go
forward, you tap with the whip,

they go to use their leg, they
get a dopamine spike at that

point, because they walk forward
and the riders leg pressure is

released. So they did this
originally with very mild

electric shocks in rats and
things. And they showed that if

they think they can avoid the
pressure, they get a little

dopamine spike. So this is kind
of why you try and why you're

motivated in learning. And it
also means that we think that

learning is enjoyable for the
horse. So I'm not against using

the whip. I think where it's
challenging in racing is if you

just use it once that's really
random to the horse. It's not

predictable, it's not
controllable. So there's going

to be no dopamine there, you
know, they can't avoid it. I

think you could potentially
train horses, that you go

through a sequence. And then you
know, you build and they're

stuck with the whip after that.
Having said that, most of these

horses are already trying rather
hard. If a horse really doesn't

want to try in racing, I think
we need to question whether it

should be in racing or not.
There are some studies, it's

really hard to look at stress
and fear because these horses

you know, their stress response,
exercise is stress. So when

they're racing flat out, you
know, you're not gonna see

differences. And also, you know,
if they're already racing as

fast as they can, how else are
they going to react to the whip,

we're not going to see the same
stress responses you might do if

they were stood still. So I
actually think it is an

unpleasant stimulus for the
horse, even the padded ones. But

just as importantly, I think
from a social licence point of

view, it looks really bad to the
public that we are having to

whip these horses to try and
make them win and you know, we

say they're encouraging them.
But I think well normally

encouragement is kind of I'd
class it as gentle

encouragement, possibly for
something positive, you know,

you might encourage your toddler
to get into the car and sit

still by offering them a bar of
chocolate. You know, that's very

different to, you know, you
might kind of put a bit of

pressure on but you're not going
to say, well, I'm going to

physically hit you if you don't
get in the car. I hope not

anyway. So I think it just looks
really bad. And that's not to

say, you know, jockeys have
incredibly sharp stirrups, that

a whip on the shoulder couldn't
be used to stop a horse drifting

that, you know, I'm, I'm not
completely anti whip under any

circumstances at all. But I
think we need to consider how a

member of the public is
perceiving our sport.

Naomi Mellor: Definitely. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. There's a

lot of sense in all of that. And
I think it's really interesting

to talk about, all whips are not
used the same way by the same

people. And, you know, I think
we see a lot of bad usage across

a lot of disciplines, including
racing and amateur sport as

well. You know, I think there's
a lot of people out there who

don't get the response they want
from their horse, and so they

just reach for stronger stimuli,
which actually does beg the

question of, you know,
particularly most people, it's

meant to be a leisure activity
that is enjoyable at the end of

the day for you and for your
horse. And where's the line? And

I think it's really hard, isn't
it?

Gemma Pearson: Yeah, definitely.

Ebony Escalona: Well, look,
Gemma, I think we could talk to

you for hours. I feel like I've
had a big dopamine release in my

CPD that I've just had from you
now and to think about all the

things that I want to go and
keep, you know, go and

investigate more on but, for
Gemma, for someone here who's

been, has had their interest
really piqued by this, where

else can we go and find out more
about your work? About other

people that you you know, you
respect and recommend? Because I

think it's a it's a box that we
need to all open as veterinary

professionals and rummage in and
get some tools out for ourselves

for our everyday practice.

Gemma Pearson: Yeah, so in terms
of vets wanting to know a little

bit more about behaviour just in
general practice, BVA have some

good things on their website. I
have done some webinars with

them previously, and we run CPD
courses through them which are

really practical, really hands
on how do I deal with difficult

horses. If people want to take
it further than that, then the

animal behaviour and Training
Council is the regulatory body

for behaviourists. Or even you
know, if you've got a case that

you think may benefit from an
accredited behaviourist that is

the place to go and search for
an equine practitioner. And at

the University of Edinburgh, we
are setting up an online course

for equine vets, which will
hopefully watch this space lead

to a certificate in advanced
veterinary practice in equine

behavioural medicine. So yeah,
it's exciting, things are moving

forwards.

Ebony Escalona: Well, thank you
so much Gemma for your time.

That was absolutely fantastic.

Gemma Pearson: You're very
welcome.

Blaise Scott-Morris: What an
amazing show. Many thanks to

today's guests. If you want more
information, have a look at the

show notes or drop us a line at
[e-mail]