Insane Rivals DRAMA, Low Elo BALANCE and FIX F*CKING RANKED ft CaptainCoach & Coach Mills

Finally back after 2 weeks, we sit down just as a duo to talk about the rampant DRAMA in Marvel Rivals since we have been gone

What is Clear Comms Podcast?

A Marvel Rivals Podcast hosted by Coach Mills and CaptainCoach, two creator and educators for Marvel Rivals. We discuss all things Rivals including META, balance and the future of development. We will often debate controversial topics that surround the game and plan to bring on many exciting guests from pros to devs!!!

Coach Mills (00:00.515)
What's up guys and welcome to a brand new Clear Comms. We're finally back after two weeks of doing no episode, and we're doing a duo episode. I'm joined by the best co-host in the world, Captain Coach. And we're gonna talk about season 8.5, a ton of random drama that's going on in the community, our opinions on the entire season, and what we want to see in the future for balance and for the game. So,

CaptainCoach (00:13.166)
Yes, sir.

CaptainCoach (00:27.95)
And a little bingo card at the end too.

Coach Mills (00:29.455)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're we're yoinking lights bingo card at the end and that's gonna be fun. Bingo card prediction. So yeah, so where do we even begin? I I I draw that there are there were three big drama pieces that happened when we were you know, I I was sick for two weeks. We we were we were dealing with a lot of stuff in our personal lives and and yeah, just like the whole rival's world just like caught on fire.

CaptainCoach (00:39.022)
Drama, drama, drama.

CaptainCoach (00:51.614)
But

CaptainCoach (00:58.456)
Burned down while we were away, bro. Like what?

Coach Mills (00:59.317)
Yeah, yeah, you know you know when there's like a power vacuum, you know, like they like the they left yeah, exactly. The the

CaptainCoach (01:03.374)
The store they're riding on the streets. The coaches are gone. There's chaos. So everywhere. No, I I was funny, bro. I was so I was away visiting family, going through the the all the drama on Twitter and X, whatever. It dude, it was crazy. Like three different storylines happening at once. You had you had flat versus light, which light guess obviously we have on the podcast a lot, then you had Warren.

Coach Mills (01:30.862)
Yep.

CaptainCoach (01:33.67)
And Aramori, I guess. We were kinda they're on the same team. J J three, okay. And then it was a I think a little bit before that Jit word and Kingsman, which I think it's probably the the lowest of the three.

Coach Mills (01:36.119)
Yeah, and and J three too, a little bit as well.

Coach Mills (01:43.618)
Yeah, yeah. yeah, the the the dumb I mean, yeah, the Jimwood and Kingsman drama was literally just like Yeah, I mean there was just like exploits that were like work 'cause for those of y'all who don't know, you you could like you had to spam something in order to get on the sleederboard to win a certain amount of money, gifted subs, but money. And so there was just like like ways to exploit that and

CaptainCoach (01:52.824)
That that one's more rivals' fault than it is I think I feel like theirs, like

Coach Mills (02:12.707)
Then there was just a lot of finger pointing. You Jit Ward did it, Kingsman's community did it, even if Kingsman didn't like actively like want it to happen, it still happened. And then like there were just like a lot of like finger pointing. It was honestly probably the worst of the three dramas because like who fucking care? Like, I don't care about who, you know, who who spams more and gets five hundred gifted subs.

CaptainCoach (02:33.035)
Yeah, I'm gonna be honest. I saw that whole challenge and I just said, No thanks. Not not even gonna try to do all that. Cause it was about about getting basically people to type exclamation point charge in your chat. And if you got more than other people during this event that they were throwing, basically whatever streamer, I think it was like gifted like a thousand subs or something. I don't even know, but it was just it was for money. It was people fighting over money.

Coach Mills (02:38.776)
No no no No, yeah.

Coach Mills (02:54.807)
Right. Right. Which it would yeah, yeah. I mean it's it's pretty dumb because of course like the bigger channels are gonna win. Like that's just it. Like it's just a popularity contest at the end of the day. Like how riled up you can get your fan base. It it was very interesting. I think the one interesting thing is like I saw at least on TikTok and on X and like a lot of these platforms, like a lot of people have like turned on Kingsman a little bit. I remember he was like the golden child, he's like

the first natural born superstar in rivals that has entered like the biggest sphere of of mainstream. and and like the the a lot of people have completely turned on him. It's very funny. And for one reason or another, Jitwood community calling him greedy. you have all this money. What do you need? A hundred gift of subs for why are you carrying the rules when it doesn't even matter for you? you know, it

Yeah, I I feel like no matter if if you ever get too popular, I think in anything, you always just get a a backlash, like a negative response.

CaptainCoach (03:55.702)
Yeah. I I I would argue that those people who who quote turned on him were never on his side. They were always kind of just waiting for him to slip up. Because I think when big drama like that happens and you said it yourself, people almost use content creators as props to kind of push their own ideals and ideas about things, right? So if if you're viewed as someone who disagrees with a content creator.

Coach Mills (04:15.693)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true, yeah.

CaptainCoach (04:22.967)
Then you don't stand for what they stand for. So I think a lot of that with Kingsman was in my from my point of view, and and I'm like open to like argument here, is that it was a lot of like competition versus like whatever vibes you want to call it, ver or more so like men versus women in in the gaming space. And I think that's I I do think that's a lot of like where that comes from. As a lot of people view him as being disrespectful towards

Coach Mills (04:46.354)
we

CaptainCoach (04:52.116)
teammates who who were women

Coach Mills (04:54.027)
well you so you'cause 'cause you're that was another part of the drama that that you bring up is the Aura More Yeah, yeah, 'cause our Aura Mori felt like she didn't really get the like when she would say something to her team of randoms in the t in a tournament, she wouldn't get the same level of respect as someone like Kingsman, even though she has like a lot more like

CaptainCoach (04:59.265)
Well they're related, but I

CaptainCoach (05:11.745)
I think so. Sometimes. I mean, okay, so like our Aramori was our coach for the Basin tournament in which Kingslayer initially got you know, like became notorious and and yeah, I mean she was she was honestly like a great coach and definitely I think it's important when you're in a team environment like that to have an established set of expectations and and goals for like what your team is willing to accomplish. So then

Coach Mills (05:23.477)
Yeah, yeah, when he blew up when Kingsman blew up, yeah.

CaptainCoach (05:40.952)
When there's disagreements, you know it's not because whatever he sheds, she said, we don't want to listen to this person for this reason or that person. It's more just we we we aligned we we made sure our goals align, we're all on the same page, and now it's it's it's just about the game. And I think a lot of these things, how much do blame do you put on the the content creators who are being asked to operate under these tournaments where you're getting golds and challengers on the same team?

Coach Mills (06:08.459)
Yeah. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (06:09.399)
So it's like how much is it the people's fault? And I think a lot of people try to take these awkward situations 'cause I I think these tournaments are overall poor pretty poorly run and that's where a lot of the drama comes from, personally.

Coach Mills (06:21.673)
Yeah, 'cause that this kind of like you know, that that kind of snowballs into what the other big drama that happened was the Warren versus Aromori or the Warren versus J three situation where there's a big tournament that is separated by regions and then there's a massive prize pool. I mean it's a hundred thousand dollars overall, but like the winning team wins I think it's like ten K each or something like

CaptainCoach (06:46.071)
Wasn't it three hundred? Three hundred thousand.

Coach Mills (06:47.641)
300,000. it's it's a shit ton of money. It's just a massive bag. And and they get they get to make a whole bunch of money. And of course, we kind of ran into another C C I guess Zaza situation where Warren wanted to play his comfort pick. He's first of all, he's not even a rivals creator anymore. He's a Overwatch guy. He's he's from a different community, and we see this a lot with these tournaments where

Netties is just using it for advertisement. Like they don't give a fuck about trying to grow like to to they're not throwing the tournament for us in the community. They're throwing the No, no, they're no No, they're they're using it for an advertisement. And and here's like the thing that people might not agree with me on. I I actually think this is like that's the main reason to throw a tournament if you're gonna throw money at it. Like they could spend, let's just say, 100K on a running ads.

CaptainCoach (07:23.297)
They don't care about competition at all. It's silly fun.

Coach Mills (07:42.9)
Or they could spend 100k on a tournament. That's basically an ad. And I think that that's probably better. But the rules need to be thought about. Because that what happened is like Warren comes in. He wants to just play his comfort pick. You know, he was a like a celestial type squirrel girl player. And he was honestly pretty good at Squirrel Girl, even though that character is like pretty suboptimal, especially in coordinated play. And he would just wanted to play his, you know, his vibe character. He wanted to play that. He didn't care about the money. He didn't care about what

Armori won it. It was kind of funny because it I remember Armori got mad about the fact that she never like she felt like she her opinions got ignored a lot of times in these tournaments, even though she had like the credibility. As for those of you who don't know, Armori is a pro champion, played for Sentinels, is a pro player, is accomplished, has earnings. and she would like not get the same level of disrespect as someone like Kingsman. So like people would kind of scoff at her, dismiss her, whatever. And then she gets into this tournament.

And then it like that exact thing kinda happens. Not for maybe those reasons, but it is funny how, you know, she's in charge, but like people don't really give a fuck about what she has to say, or at Warren did not. And yeah, d yeah.

CaptainCoach (08:52.813)
Apparently he was a a h a hit scan player, I I heard. I don't know if that's true. He is

Coach Mills (08:56.641)
No, he is. He's he's an Ash player in in Overwatch. I I've I've I've played against Warren like a million times back at Overwatch and and yeah, he's a good hit scan player.

CaptainCoach (09:02.773)
Okay.

CaptainCoach (09:06.477)
Yeah, I think she wanted him on Ultron, on Triple. He didn't want to or but it wasn't as fun.

Coach Mills (09:09.293)
Yeah, and yeah, well he thought it was boring. But like that's the whole thing, is it's like that's kind of the problem when you have these tournaments with all this money. It's like if it's boring, who k who cares? We're we're trying to win money. Like like who cares if it's bor Lock the Magneto, it's boring. But that's that's what you're talking about, is like the

CaptainCoach (09:17.707)
Yeah, it it

CaptainCoach (09:22.453)
Well, again though, that you gotta make sure your goals align right at the start of the tournament. So I was actually a a tournament coach or captain, I mean, for the Basm tournament before the one I was on with Armory. I was and that was like the first thing I did was be like, Hey, how hard are we trying, guys? Are we gonna like lock in meta? Are we gonna lock in our comfort? And you we we've we figured that out. But how much do you think

Coach Mills (09:29.081)
Right.

CaptainCoach (09:50.508)
Well, I got two questions for because I'm I'm kind of curious too, that the drama happening in Rivals right now is a sign that the game is not in the best spot, is my number one. And then two, I'm not trying to like call anyone out in particular, but how much do you think people still see the Kingsman situation that happened in that Basum tournament? Which by the way, that was the best rivals tournament that we've had so far, I think, is that is that Basm script.

Coach Mills (10:17.323)
Yeah, and I didn't get an invite to it 'cause I you know 'cause fuck me, that's why, I guess. Anyway, sorry, I'm my bad. All right.

CaptainCoach (10:20.781)
is is people it's it's like the the meta now to to start drama, farm the content, get more people on your side. 'Cause I think a lot of people do use these platforms more as not so much a way to earn money but as like a prop. But I again I don't know these people. I don't really I it'd be great maybe to have them on and talk to them and see what like their point of view, but

Coach Mills (10:43.183)
Right. Cause that that is interesting. Cause there was a lot of people like throwing out accusations that people in the tournament were trying to create a that situation again. Cause they see Kingsman just blow up through this drama and they're just like, look at the opportunity there. Cause I mean it's obvious. I mean, with the numbers that Kingsman's pulling in. Like, I know that he blew up as a as a college kid that couldn't afford his college and really wanted a tournament winning to afford his college.

I mean he's like he he he's in generational wealth territory like from now on. I mean he just like like I mean I like like if I don't know if people from the outside looking in understand what the numbers are, but when you're averaging three thousand on Twitch, you're you're printing money every second. You fucking yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean you're making you're making hundreds of dollars per match of fucking rivals. I mean anyways, the point is

CaptainCoach (11:29.793)
Generational wealth. Are you saying he's gonna have a son named him w Prin Prince Boy?

Coach Mills (11:42.276)
People see that opportunity and they're like, What can I do to, you know, maybe jump in that wave, jump ride that train. there's drama. Ooh, drama, drama. I also think like one of the things you said about expectations, right? You know? I think one of the problems with expectations is as the prize pool gets bigger, like if if this was if we're running a tournament where the prize pool's a hundred dollars, I think it's it would be not y you could talk to your team about expectations, but you shouldn't

You wouldn't necessarily assume that people care all that much if it's just a hundred dollars. I'm not saying a hundred dollars is nothing, but I'm just saying it's like whatever. As that price bull gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, the expectation needs to be, yeah, people fucking care. Like, you know. Right.

CaptainCoach (12:24.971)
I agree. I think that's pretty common sense. And and even if you don't need the money, you you you're playing with people who probably do. I mean, they're and it's one of those things too, right? Where some people view those tournaments as a lot of effort that they would have to put in for what they maybe see as not a very good chance at that prize money because it's whatever, not their main game. So for them, even from a content perspective, they don't want to look like

Coach Mills (12:31.833)
Exactly.

CaptainCoach (12:54.669)
A fool, I guess, maybe is is I could see maybe that's if you want to s like take the side of Warren is like, okay. I mean he he looked fine on Ultron, but maybe we don't wanna play something that what's not on our comfort on the big stage or we don't wanna put in like h dozens of hours of work throughout the week to to train for this. You know, I i it's just about yeah, like I said, matching expectations.

Coach Mills (13:14.479)
Yeah, because I saw one of the defenses of him is like in the last tournament that he won with XQC, because he did play in another tournament with him, a another creative tournament, he played Squirrel Girl in that tournament and they won. And then he posted that gameplay on YouTube and it blew up. So like which promotes him and promotes his platform. So he, you know, he gets invited to this tournament. He's thinking, I get to run it back. I get to lock Squirrel Girl. I get to create content. I get to be in this tournament. And it it doesn't really matter. It's just a

CaptainCoach (13:21.484)
Okay.

Coach Mills (13:43.118)
It's just a casual term. That's what he's thinking from his point of view. You know, I don't care about the money. I just this is just a cool opportunity and we can have fun. And then, but like that's kind of the problem is like as that prize pool gets bigger and bigger and bigger, it's like the people that are coming in with them are they're not thinking that. They don't give a fuck about the content. They don't give a fuck about like they're trying to win, they're trying to win the money, and when he's not taking it to that same level of si like seriousness, like that those disconnects,

CaptainCoach (14:09.121)
You gotta find people who are hungry, man. You get the small to mid sized creators, those are the people who are gonna be hungry and wanting to prove themselves. So those are gonna be where you get the best tournaments.

Coach Mills (14:18.679)
I I think it would be really smart if people who host these tournaments and Netti's themselves come out where where there's a tournament and they say this is a creative tournament, but these are the expectations. You're like going in. Like the expectation is just it's just like try hard, collaborate, you know. cause like it's funny because that same mindset you said, like, for him, it's like not worth it for like not a good chance. People in ranked think the same way. When they're like

CaptainCoach (14:29.259)
No squirrel girl. Or widow. Yeah.

Coach Mills (14:45.677)
I have to fill as Luna and we're probably not gonna win anyways because I have a blade DPS or a Spider Man that's not Lord. It's like I'm just gonna fucking throw this game because who cares? I'm just gonna play what I want. Like they think the same way 'cause it's like the investment versus So in my opinion, Netty should only invite people that really want it. It's not like I don't really think they should just reach out to some random creator that's big and be like, Hey, come play in this tournament.

Like I get it's an advertisement, but you y I I think you you agree with what I'm saying. It's like

CaptainCoach (15:15.711)
It it's it's almost kind of like this weird double standard that they silently kind of impose upon the community, which is you know, we want you to try, but we're going to have certain heroes in this game that are clearly just not competitive at a certain level. And it's again, I mean, we talk about it all the time. What's the design overarching design philosophy? What are we trying to do, Netties? There's a lot of confusion here with how your game is supposed to be.

Coach Mills (15:32.738)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (15:43.7)
whatever, digested by the players, right? And I think that disconnect is a bit of the reason why a lot of this drama is happening. I don't think you can go through this without putting at least a little blame on the company for for c setting these things up and and you know, I I think a a really good way to alleviate this problem is just to give players more info starting out, but also more info that they can spread amongst themselves while in a game. Things like

Maybe we don't do I mean, I know people who watch the podcast know I'm in favor of a soft role queue. Well, maybe we don't do soft role queue. Maybe we just have it when you join a lobby. It'll show you your best role and your second best role. Just so that there's less confusion among players. There's the expectations are more clear. So this element of communication that tends to get muddy and cause a lot of conflict. I'm sure you've experienced it in your right games, a lot of throwers. Get off Spider Man, we need three healers.

Coach Mills (16:26.905)
People can see, right?

Coach Mills (16:39.311)
Wait, yeah.

CaptainCoach (16:39.713)
that's going to happen less. And I think these are things that they could fix easily without actually having to balance the game, which, you know, is a whole nother topic.

Coach Mills (16:46.585)
It it's kind of funny that you say that because I was doing with death. We we both love death, death and gaming. And you know, he likes to play Psylock, he likes to play rogue, he likes to play Rocket, right? And so he's locking Psy, but then he's telling his team, Hey, I also play Rocket. So don't ban Rocket if you want me on support. And so it's like this song and dance where he doesn't really know what his team is playing, and so he's trying to communicate what he plays, but like what if he has to play DPS and then Rocket's open? You know, it's like there's like this weird thing.

Wouldn't it be so great if you could just hover his profile and you could just see Cap, Cy Rocket, and then you could just be like, shit, he can play Rocket and he has this win percentage and then like you know wouldn't that be so great if we didn't have to play these fucking games with each other to figure out?

CaptainCoach (17:22.06)
Well

CaptainCoach (17:28.205)
Well y you can't you can do that. it's called getting a tracker, but actually I

Coach Mills (17:35.159)
Right. But like just make make teammates pr public. You know, you could just look at your teammates and be like, this guy, he plays fucking Hulk, but if you let him play Hulk, he's gonna fucking win because he has a he has a sixty three percent win rate. Alright, alright, he's gonna play Hulk. Alright, this guy, okay, he can play this and that you know what I'm saying? Like I just think it'd be

CaptainCoach (17:46.22)
But

CaptainCoach (17:53.612)
Yeah, you're so I'm I'm I was get played into pretty high ranked lobbies, like pretty much full one above all lobbies. Last night I got into about three or four of in a row. And in most of the games, I'm like, Do you want me to swap to this? Do you want me to swap to that? And in one of the games, I think it was British Tree, if you know who that is, I said, we had two tanks, I was the third tank, and I'm like, I can go mantis, I have a good mantis win rate, and everybody in the lobby collectively was like, No, get on Hulk!

Coach Mills (18:22.603)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (18:22.935)
'Cause those one above all players with the using the trackers, they know what you're playing before you do. Okay, they know what you're playing before you do. And that's the type of advantage that people try to, you know, squeak out when you get to these ranks. It's it really is come d comes down to that's how much people put effort into trying to differ differentiate themselves. So if you gave that power to the players, if if the top players are using that to make their game quality better, how could that not be a tool that everybody would love in a way that's not considered

Coach Mills (18:33.325)
CaptainCoach (18:52.395)
Shady, cheating, whatever, using third party sites to get an unfair advantage, just give give the power to everybody, but make it so it's not like abusable. It's it's just more I to me, more power to the players almost always is a good thing. Almost always.

Coach Mills (19:05.079)
I a hundred percent. A hundred percent agree. but kind of going back to that that tournament drama real quick, just the the Warren versus Jay versus Armori. I really, really think that tournaments like we we've talked about it a lot. I think these tournaments have a have a massive like place that they can improve in, which is just like being very clear what the type of tournament it is. I also like the idea of adding in different types of incentives to make people have a good time. So we we we've talked, we've pitched

We wanna do a Clearcoms tournament. More the plan is for the plan is for big Clearcoms creator, but we'll also invite non creators too. It'll be cool. it'll probably be mostly creators, but what's up?

CaptainCoach (19:37.962)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (19:45.185)
Wait.

I'm not trying to interrupt you, but would we have our own team against everybody else or would we like have our each have a team that would go compete in the turn?

Coach Mills (19:56.388)
Well that's that's the fun like I probably you and I are gonna cast it most likely is what's gonna happen. But yeah, yeah. Well that's probably what we're gonna do. We're probably gonna cast it. But I here's an idea I have for a tournament. So anyone that has any ideas to improve the tournament process, definitely let us know down below. We can work on this together. The plan is not until like October time frame, maybe a b little bit before that. You know, a couple months, a month or two, at at at a minimum.

CaptainCoach (20:00.781)
I would do I would I love casting. I love it.

Coach Mills (20:25.377)
Here's what I like. I like the idea of giving certain amount of monetary rewards to certain individuals in the tournament for a variety of reasons. So, like as an example, SVP, the best player on a team that lost. That's cool. Best play of the tournament. You know, maybe it's two hundred, maybe it's three hundred, whatever the amount of money is. and you could do, you know, it could be something like best support or or highest performer on an off meta, or I don't know, whatever you want to do.

CaptainCoach (20:35.431)
yeah.

CaptainCoach (20:45.035)
Be voted on.

CaptainCoach (20:53.387)
Most hated player by their teammates.

Coach Mills (20:54.509)
Most hated player, lowest rank like there's there's a lot of things 'cause my thing is make a tournament where people come out of the tournament feeling good, right? Like a lot of these tournaments, people are not feeling good after the tournament. A lot of these tournaments I I I literally remember one of the first tournaments I think I played in. You played in, we never interacted, but we both played in it. I remember Potato, who's like one of the he's a great ladder player, top a hundred consistently, very good. He was on a a terrible team. And despite him

CaptainCoach (21:03.466)
Everybody feeling good. Yeah.

Coach Mills (21:24.345)
Putting up like forty and five numbers every game, his team was bottom, and four, dropped out of the tournament, eliminated. And he I just remember just checking his stream and he was just having a miserable time. So I would like it if there are little things that you can do to try to improve the experience of teams no matter how they perform. Maybe you're walking away with some bonuses if you're, you know. Yeah, Mosey. Yeah, I think that's cool. I think that's really cool. I also, maybe not for our tournament, but just in general. I like the idea of tournaments that have

CaptainCoach (21:44.619)
Most MVPs, something like that.

Coach Mills (21:54.384)
fun rule sets that apply to everybody as a hypothetical. So imagine a tournament with money on the line where there's like before the match, there's a fucking spinning wheel. Character it hits, both teams have to play that character. You can't swap off of it. You know, something like that where it's you're trying to win, there's money on the line, but you have this this factor that you have to play around. This this thing. it would also be kind of fun if we what if we did like a

CaptainCoach (22:08.983)
I like that.

Coach Mills (22:22.413)
No triple support allowed. Like we can make whatever rule set we want to make. We say, Fuck these you know, fuck these characters, you know.

CaptainCoach (22:25.141)
Yeah. Well

I I think that's the future of the game, considering its current tr trajectory. I I I just I mean I I love getting the viewpoints of people like Fawkes, Fox and like you know, light coming on and and talking about the competitive scene, trust me. But I I think really where the future of this game lies, I I've said it before, is in more of the grassroots kind of people making their own tournaments, their own rule sets, because y at a certain point you just get tired of complaining that.

Whatever the balance is in what what like what it should be for whatever rank, like and if then what whatever when pros scene is fun and you know, dive is viable and there's a lot of comps unlocked in ranked, it's just miserable. So again, that th there's that disconnect. So if you just kinda let the community do their own thing and support those types of tournaments, I think it would be wise from Netties to sponsor tournaments like ours, you know.

Coach Mills (23:19.811)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (23:21.953)
And then you know, 'cause I think those have been the best so far, th those types of tournaments where they've been more creator driven and and grassroots. Maybe maybe I'm just biased. I don't know.

Coach Mills (23:30.916)
Yeah. I I I I I my thing is I've criticized all the pretty much all these tournaments on the way that they've been handled or the rule sets. So that's really why I want to run a tournament. I want us to do a tournament. 'Cause I if if I I it's easy for me to just say, Hey, it can be done better. But let's sit down, let's think let's brainstorm, let's think about rules that you can implement that will actually improve the experience for everybody. And let's make a better tournament. You know what I'm saying? Like instead of me just saying it, I want us to do it. And I think we can. I think we can.

CaptainCoach (23:59.394)
Yeah. Leave your comments below. Ideas.

Coach Mills (24:02.029)
Yeah. Any idea you have for a tournament, any idea like I said, it's gonna be mostly creators, but I think there could be windows of people. not it it's it's a little tricky because you need people to show up consistently. You need people to have a certain amount of like decorum as far as like times are concerned and showing up. So like if you if you allow open entry to a tournament, it becomes a little bit trickier 'cause it's like someone shows up, they don't show up. there's a lot of things we can figure out, but anyways, you have any recommendations, leave it down below.

CaptainCoach (24:17.601)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (24:28.969)
you maybe just remember I used to actually run League of Legends tournaments just within my community back when I streamed that game. One of the awards we had at the end of the tournament was the the best flamer who had the best insults towards the enemy team. So we banter was encouraged. and it was actually the most popular reward because the losing teams had a a way to actually win something.

Coach Mills (24:47.747)
That's actually that that i i clear comms a toxic tourney. Just like that'd be fucking yeah, I don't think I don't I yeah, I haven't even reached out to Netti's about sponsoring a tourney b by us, but they're not sponsoring that shit. Okay. No, no, that would I I th it would be cool if there's there's a tourney that's like trash talk is encouraged would be

CaptainCoach (24:55.126)
That'd be so good.

CaptainCoach (25:04.523)
No, no, definitely not. Definitely not. Not not with this community. Not with this community.

Coach Mills (25:16.301)
Like within re y you know, not not like crazy personal instances, but trash talk is encouraged. I th I like I like the sportsman style of trash talk, you know, the NBA trash talk. The I like that. I it it's it's cool. it's fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Talking shit back and forth. Like I don't want people walking on egg shows. Like, you know, I think it'd be cool. another thing, so you you mentioned him, Light, who's a a a regular on the pod. We love light. and

CaptainCoach (25:16.829)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (25:20.866)
Yeah and

CaptainCoach (25:26.284)
Mm-hmm.

in game BM, you know, like Arawaki and stuff like that.

Coach Mills (25:45.636)
He got in some drama versus the king, the other king, of of Marvel Rivals, Flats, who's a who's someone that we also both like. I I've watched Flats for a long time. I've made videos on Flats before, talking about his like th his rise to stardom and and we both like Flats. I respect what he does in the content space a lot. And it's very interesting their debate. Now, if you didn't see it, it was like four videos back and forth, like playing fucking telephone.

Just YouTube video, react to YouTube video, react to YouTube video. And it's a lot of bullshit. I four I four X'd a lot of it or two X or whatever. I I I just I try to get through it. Here's They They had a lot of different opinions, but the one thing that I think was at the core of both. So Flats said the way that low ELO players or your casual gamer feels about balance is really important because you want them to have great experiences. You want the casual experience to be good.

They're the ones who pay the bills in the game. They're the ones that ensure the game survives. So that's flat's opinion. and so balance needs to take them into account mostly. Even more important than high-rank players and more important than pros because they are the bread and butter of the g of the game, like the lifeblood of the game. Light has a different opinion. He says, fuck the opinions of low elo players and casual players about balance, because in low elo, anything goes. You can play Wanda, you can play Squirrel Girl.

In fact, a lot of lower rank players think Squirrel Girl is bo broken, busted, very strong, even though she's not in higher rank play and and in in pro play. And Light, Light's opinion is get better at the game. and the analogy he uses is like you wouldn't you would talk to if you want to get, you know, a brain surgery, you talk to a brain surgeon. You don't talk to some random person and his that's why he says like the people who should be deciding balance should be pros or high rank players. and so that's like where they both

kind of debate. And they both believe that their side is right. I wanted to pass it to you, Captain Coach. What do you think about these difference in mentality? 'Cause I think these both are fighting and this has kind of been at the core of the the identity crisis of rivals. What do you think?

CaptainCoach (27:56.992)
Yeah, I mean you can compare it to like other games that have had more of a focus on the competitive scene, League of Legends, Valorant, they've all had great success. I'd say the difference though with Rivals is it's not really marketed that way. So there's going to be a going to be a clear disconnect between your high and low rank community. I ri I really like what Trust me said when when he was on the pod. It kind of bridged the gap between flat and lights' argument, which is that you need more introductory

Introductory educational material for these new players. So you can elevate them to a level to where you can do what I who I ultimately agree with is light. I think I think I would prefer this game be balanced around higher ranks, but you know, have ways to kind of encourage newer people to have this kind of improvement mindset and learn hero shooters in a way that's going to get them to a point where we don't need to have a Black Widow have 34% win rate in rank.

Coach Mills (28:28.207)
Hundred percent. Yep.

CaptainCoach (28:53.449)
in in like Celestial Plus. I I think a big issue too is console. I think that there is a pretty big gap between PC and console. And console I think is probably more popular, right? For this by far. And and I think that's also

Coach Mills (28:53.73)
Right, right.

Coach Mills (29:05.923)
By far. They th there was there was something like I believe it was like nineteen million people played Rivals last week on PS four or PS five, PlayStation. Like like the number the game is actually insanely healthy numbers wise when you put take into console. I think console is actually holding this game up. It's actually keeping it alive. which is crazy.

CaptainCoach (29:17.643)
Yeah, that's crazy.

CaptainCoach (29:26.765)
Well. That's probably because HitScan's not miserable to play on console against. Console metal's probably kinda nice, dude. But yeah, like a a character like Magic, I I believe the tracker sites they they do take into account console and PC, right? Or or is that yeah, so I

Coach Mills (29:44.077)
Yes, yes. And that and then magic is definitely gonna be better on those platforms by far when you're not getting too tapped by a Jean Grey or whatever.

CaptainCoach (29:49.078)
Right. Right. So, you know, even though I I like I disagree with flats, I th I do think he like the arguments he i proposes are are fairly valid. And if you look at it through that lens where you're just trying to make the game as successful as possible, doing what Flats says is probably the right way to do it, considering nothing else happens. Right? Like considering we don't do this

introductory material and kind of try to help players have like whatever coach fox pop up on your screen and be like, hey, here's how to put use your support all he's just like yelling at you

Coach Mills (30:24.999)
Yeah. Yeah. Captain Coach is like, here's how you juggle. Here's how you BM. Let's go. no, I actually really like everything you said because I like I really that's why we really just wanted to get flats and lighten like on the pod or just in a call because there it doesn't have to be us versus them. Like it just doesn't and I know that they talked about a lot more than just this point, but I wanted to kind of harp on this point.

CaptainCoach (30:44.619)
Be a great episode.

Coach Mills (30:55.149)
Th there's ways that everyone can win. Like one of the things I said is like I like I like high end balance. I like higher skill characters getting rewarded at the highest elos. But I really want problematic characters for like the lower elos to get like those get touched. Like if if you're ha if if let's just say Penny is making a miserable experience for like, you know, gold through diamond, right? I that should be something that's addressed.

but a hypothetic well I'm just saying or or like even if it's Scarlet Witcher Squirrel Girl or whatever character like their experiences should matter too and we th th we should think about those experiences but we shouldn't do those instead of balancing for high elo. You what I'm saying? Like we can do both. Like like buffing or nerfing let's just say squirrel girl's dominating in gold. Nerfing Squirrel Girl is not gonna fucking affect our games because no one plays that bitch anyways in our ELO.

Or or at least they shouldn't, especially not in a money tournament. But y you get you get what I'm talking about.

CaptainCoach (31:53.718)
I mean it's you could just do a thing where whatever, Squirrel Girl does ten percent less damage to silver and bronze players. I just see that at the that wouldn't even be bad though. No one would even like I don't think anyone would even care.

Coach Mills (32:00.022)
No What that you you no it Well, yeah. but like I I like the idea of making kids more healthy, like Black Panther. Like like we've talked about him ad nauseum, like make him more healthy. 'Cause I my b I think his problem is like he smurfs just ruin like any perception of that character for everybody 'cause any smurf is is like blitztepping you like

CaptainCoach (32:24.887)
Dude, it's funny. I w one thing I've noticed through my rank climb this season, really every season, since whatever, like f season three or four when Flyers kind of killed BP. you get to a certain rank where all the good Black Panther players are, but they can't get any higher. So their skill level, their skill level is much higher than like I would say most BP players cap out if they

Coach Mills (32:42.216)
ha ha

CaptainCoach (32:50.889)
Main the hero, probably like C2, C three. Like they can't really get much higher than that. And that's like if they're playing really well. Like you you you can see a BP player in GM1 who's genuinely a more talented gamer than top 500 supports. No joke. I mean it is that big of a skill gap. I right. I I have so much respect for people who play that hero. Yep. and there's there's a there's there's a ton of gray area between whatever BPs and

Coach Mills (32:53.091)
Yep. Yep. No, it's impossible.

Coach Mills (33:04.879)
I mean they're better they're better than me. I mean they they are a hundred percent like easily. And they they're just handicapping themselves. It's like fucking Rock Lee with the ankle weights. Like legit.

CaptainCoach (33:20.587)
The bet the the best BP and the best rocket, you could look you could go through every hero and be like, okay, well, you got to be this good at this hero to get to this ring. I Hul Hulk's kind of like that a little bit. Like I you think you have to be better at better at some heroes if you want to win win and climb the ladder because you know, now we're kind of getting into the balance talk, but it it it really is an interesting topic because there's so much they could do to to help their game. But it's like I think a lot of the where the dis agreement lies is okay, how do we go about doing this? What's the order?

Coach Mills (33:48.336)
How do we go about doing it? Yeah, I mean like BP is one that would we no one could ever really fully agree on like what you do with that character. Cause like it's obvious like in its current state, like all those guys that are stuck in like the C C C three, C two, if you just made BP meta, those care those players would be top five hundred, you know, eternity plus instantly. but then like I think a lot of players would suffer. widow players too, yeah. But like

CaptainCoach (34:11.051)
Widow players too. Yeah.

Coach Mills (34:14.595)
Like, that's the thing, is like those players are only being held back by the meta, even though they're insane at their heroes. But but wait, before we talk about that, one one thing I want to hear your thought on, because this is kind of how I feel about the lights versus flash, just like the final wrap up of it. when a game has consistent hero releases every single month, consistent new things added, and tons of money being funneled into the pro scene, which they are funneling a shit ton of money.

CaptainCoach (34:29.846)
yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (34:44.129)
I mean the the price pool is pretty fat. I mean not compared to maybe the counter strike, like big things, but just like for old open tournaments with not much entry, there's a lot of money being funneled in. I think that neties could decide to balance it for casuals. I think netties could decide to balance it for pros and say fuck casuals. I think netties could do n random shit every single patch. And I think the game would still be perfectly fine. Like I I I I get that there are things that people want to make a more optimal game. But I hate this these

The doomer conversations about if you don't do it this way, the game will die like Overwatch did, or like Apex did, or like XYZ game did. I don't really think that people take into account how much different rivals is from all those fucking games. It's not it's not Overwatch. The staying power of this game, the consistent releases, the IP, they have the luxury of being able to fuck up so many things and it just not not matter. Like

Like, you could have the worst meta in the world, casuals pissed, support strike, whatever. And then Thanos comes out. No one fucking cares anymore. Thanos or new PvE mode. No one cares. The pros, if there's a paycheck to be gotten, they don't fucking care. They're just they're gonna play the next tournament. Or someone else is gonna replace them. they're not taking a stand and saying, I'm not gonna play unless you bounce it. Like, they're not doing that shit. So, anyways.

I I'm not saying that nothing matters, but I am saying that like the game is going to be successful independently on the w on like the direction the devs decide to go.

CaptainCoach (36:20.641)
Well, I I think they've made their intentions pretty clear. I I do think you have to give the dev team the benefit of the doubt and look at something that may not be a good balance change or or intro you know, addition of content to the game in like a higher rank sense as something that's just and this is again where I agree with flats, your goals just don't align with what their goals are. So you you brought up pure hero releases, new ones, they always

release super overtuned, super overpowered. I will die on this hill. The best way to release a new hero is either like s on the weaker side or completely unviable. And I I stand by that. But Net is will not 'cause there there's there's always going to be a learning curve to these these new heroes and the win rate will naturally go up o over time. And and there's let me finish, Kai, see you nodding your head. The

Coach Mills (37:17.165)
No, no, I agree. I agree with what you're saying.

CaptainCoach (37:18.723)
okay. so the the one is that there is a like a like you say a power vacuum with the people who will put in a ton hours really quick, or learn the hero and get really good at them and then there's gonna be this big skill gap, this knowledge gap, and and it causes a lot of unfortunate situations in ranked where you're just people abr abusing a broken character get a whole lot of rank and then now you have this situation where you nerf them. Now yeah, people are in these ranks that don't belong and just abusing broken shit. But

Also

Yeah, the game quality is just gonna go down just in the short term because of that, because of just how so so I I I think obviously the reason they they do that though is engagement. They every time they want new content out, they want the new players, the casuals to be able to log on and just own people. You go into quick play, you go into eighteen versus eighteen with the new cyclops, and there's it it it's there's more red on your screen than there is the actual map because there's just a bunch of lasers flying around. It's crazy.

Coach Mills (38:02.999)
Hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Coach Mills (38:15.939)
Yeah, y you would not believe how many messages I've gotten that's like I was in X rank. Now I'm two ranks higher on Cyclops. Like I'm I've been farming on Cyclops. my god, I d this character's crazy. I mean they made a they made a busted hit scan that's easier to hit shots with because the projectile is fucking massive. comparatively to to like the the hit the size of the hit scan bullet is bigger.

CaptainCoach (38:23.689)
yeah.

CaptainCoach (38:40.589)
Can can you think of any argument for adding a hero OP on release that doesn't interfere with r ranked competitive integrity? Because I think that should be the goal. And I c I can never think of an argument why you'd want to release a hero OP, other than from a win rate perspective, on average, yeah, maybe it will be closer to the other heroes now, 'cause, you know, there's a learning curve and then but eventually that's if if they're

Too strong then it's just gonna be

Coach Mills (39:10.797)
I I think it's so they make an impact, I think is the big thing. Like if you want seasons to feel different and you want patch cycles to feel different, you want new heroes to feel different, you want to release them like you want more gambits instead of blades. I'm not saying that this is the design philosophy that I would like, but what I will say is Blade didn't make a mark. Gambit did. Blade didn't change shit, gambit did. So if you think about it from like a a more

CaptainCoach (39:15.201)
Yeah, exactly.

Coach Mills (39:39.374)
like hardcore perspective, if you release underpowered characters like Blade, they don't there's no meaningful change between before release and after release. And so like you could make the argument that like, especially when you talked about the natural skill curve, like people get better at the character, like as the character's out for longer. Release them broken so they get value instantly, no matter how good they are. And then as they get better, then you nerf the character. Like like that's that's the only argument I could think of. And it's just like

CaptainCoach (40:08.171)
Yeah, in the short term it it it probably makes the game quality maybe better. I I don't really see that argument, but

Coach Mills (40:08.611)
They yeah.

Coach Mills (40:13.411)
The th they just they just really want the game to they just want it not necessarily better. They just want these characters to make make their mark. Feel impactful. Like that was the Dino season. When you think, Dino, when was Dino season? yeah, we remember. When was Emma's season? yeah, we remember that shit. You know, we remember when these characters were released and we remember how fucking broken they were. because they and I'm not saying Gambit hat is still not broken because he still is, but I am saying that we remember like

I don't necessarily think them releasing characters overpowered is my criticism at all. I actually think that that's okay. Because there's a window of time where people don't know what the fuck they're doing. I mean it's fine. and you could ban it. My criticism comes from the month after when the character is not appropriately balanced post a month of analysis. You g you have a month to look at, this fucking character's really, really, really good.

CaptainCoach (40:50.765)
Yeah, you can always just ban it.

Coach Mills (41:10.977)
And then they don't do anything or they give that character a really tiny change, that defeats that whole thing. Maybe, maybe the argument is, well, maybe you know, high-rank players really understand the character right away and they they know that character and they can reach the, you know, the the ceiling of value very quickly. But the rest of the community is still catching up. So let's give them more time to catch up. Once they figure out that the character's broken, now we'll nerf the character. And it's like.

I don't I don't really agree. I think the time needs to be tighter. Like if you're gonna release s like as an example, Black Cat broken, okay. Let her be broken for one one month and then nerf her. Like pretty hard. But they didn't they let her be broken for two months, I believe. It was like two whole months instead of one. anyways.

CaptainCoach (41:56.076)
Yeah, but to the you know, someone who plays less, maybe they only played two or three times and they they're not even aware that she's OP. So it's like again, where do you draw that line? To me it's it's you might as well like it to me, I again, I just prio higher higher ranks. I I think but it's so obvious.

Coach Mills (42:01.753)
They're not even right. Where do you draw?

Coach Mills (42:11.961)
You gotta pryo s you gotta pry your s something. You gotta pryo something. Right. You do you you have to prio something.

CaptainCoach (42:18.763)
You you so you mentioned Gambit without looking. I don't know if you have looked. Celestial Plus, which I'd say is like pretty good, but like a pretty big chunk of the player base at this point in the season. Celestial Plus, what do you think Gambit's win rate is against non-mirrors right now?

Coach Mills (42:21.367)
Right.

Coach Mills (42:34.029)
It's it's probably it's probably negative. It's probably it's probably not fifty, it's probably like forty nine point five.

CaptainCoach (42:38.125)
What do you think? What's your what's your guess?

Forty eight point nine eight. We did it. We did it everybody. We did it. Or did we? Yeah.

Coach Mills (42:46.137)
Wow. There I still think the character's broken. The character's still broken. So there's that so i this is this is Death made a post about it like Gambit's not even broken anymore. People just mindlessly drone on tier list. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well Rocket's really, really str I think one I I think that the character has been banned so long that people are legit handless on him. I I kind of made that point where people people do not remember how to play him.

CaptainCoach (42:58.477)
Yeah, compared to Rocket.

CaptainCoach (43:09.639)
for sure. They don't

Coach Mills (43:13.239)
And and why would they? The character's been fucking banned since he's been released. Like, why would they remember how to play this character? And also, he's he's weak into dive. He always has been. And Rocket enables dive and killing things. Cap is good, Venom's good, Daredevil's still good. Like, like Gambit has always been a character that like you can still play him in a dive. It's just like that's it turns out you can just kill him.

CaptainCoach (43:21.431)
Funny.

Coach Mills (43:40.26)
You know, his ultimate is still broken, but if you kill him, the ultimate turns off and you could hard target him. He only has two forms of mobility. He doesn't have any hard sustain abilities like Invis does, like even Cloak and Dagger does. Like he has some amount of heal, but not a lot. You just fucking kill the guy. so the combination of those two things, I think people are trying to force Gambit in because they're like, Gambit's open, let's just play him. And they don't know what they're doing. They don't

Build a comp around him, which you still need to do if you want to enable the gambit, and they die because they're just getting killed by a dice. But maybe they're gonna look at that and they're gonna say, okay, we buff Gambit. And they'll be like, Hey, we're bouncing for you fucking eternity players. He had a negative win rate in eternity, so we're bouncing for you. What do y'all want? Y'all want balance? We're boun we're we're picking y'all. like, I don't I I I don't know. Right.

CaptainCoach (44:28.565)
Yeah, it's all about interpreting the stats the right way. No, I Gambit's tough. I I I feel like w man, it w you're still at this point as a tank player where the the best way you can impact the game i is really just telling your supports when to alt. You know, kinda j kinda just that's like d that's like sixty percent of the outcome of the game. And now with Gambit Alt being nerfed, it's like fifty five percent. You know, it's like doesn't matter as much when they fuck it up, you know. So I think that's you know, I I Gambit

Coach Mills (44:33.283)
I mean yeah yeah.

Coach Mills (44:44.303)
Okay, God not not this again. man.

Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (44:58.441)
He's almost close to being like I'm okay. Like he's not too bad. Like his alt isn't an auto wipe every time I've I've noticed. Like if people do have bad gambit alts, you will probably just waste it.

Coach Mills (45:01.247)
Is not too bad.

Coach Mills (45:08.089)
P people also better, I think, at playing against him. They kite more, they help each other a bit more. they counter him. Like there are like whether whether it's Magneto or strange ulting or whatever, there are ways to counter. I did want to kind of 'cause we're talk we're already talking about balance. I want to hear your your opinion of of this patch. I actually think this is one of the the most balanced patches we've been on in a very long time. I don't know if you agree or disagree.

CaptainCoach (45:37.631)
I agree. I gave it a good grade. I s stand by it. That being said, it was miserable because every time they release a new hero, it's you you got a new one to ban and Cyclops is that's a server admin hero. And the problem th even though Cyclops is not as overpowered as release Black Cat, in my opinion, i he's way easier to play.

Coach Mills (45:37.866)
you agree?

Coach Mills (45:45.792)
Ha ha ha

Coach Mills (45:54.212)
Yeah, I agree.

True. So there's more of Yeah.

CaptainCoach (45:58.978)
So it's just as bad, if not worse. Like plus he's a way more popular character. I mean Cyclops, you you gotta ban. Like once you figure once I figured out that you ban Cyclops so people don't get the wolf team up, it's like basically like a two for one. And just ban all the the poke heroes. Patch isn't that bad. Like once you kind of figure out the bands, it's not too bad. And then, you know, let's build off of that. Now the next one we we we nerfed Daredevil. wait, he's still OP? Okay, we maybe we we

Coach Mills (46:01.687)
Ha ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (46:24.661)
I mean, he's still highest win rate, still best dive. Black cat fifty two percent win rate, Celestial Plus. So sh I mean, even though maybe some black cat mains didn't like the way she was nerfed to r take away some skill expression, she's still pretty pretty decent. Probably well, like probably like B tier, you'd think, C tier.

Coach Mills (46:39.047)
Yeah, she's okay. It's my problem is win rates are they're hard to be perfectly accurate 'cause I don't know in what scenarios are people deciding to play these characters. Like, are you playing these characters only until like that was one of the things is where like B P had like this really high win rate and it's like it's because when you go up against a thing, they swap the fuck off. They don't just like run it down onto on onto them. I did want to talk about Cyclops because I actually think

CaptainCoach (47:05.749)
Yeah, I mean you're the expert.

Coach Mills (47:07.243)
Yeah, I did I did I I did I did LARP my way to attorney on the character. We did. Yeah. You you I got the I got the Captain Coats boost. and

CaptainCoach (47:11.457)
We did. We did. Yeah.

Coach Mills (47:19.683)
The character there are there are a couple of things. One, I think the b his biggest problem is that he's just easy. Like I think at the ceiling, there are other characters that can probably rival him in value, but it's way harder to hit headshots on Hella or Gene than it is on Cyclops. It's not remotely close. Like if an unk like me can hit headshots reliably, like that like I'm handless on Gene and I'm fucking dominating a lobby on Cyclops because the shots are that much easier.

I don't think that Cyclops by himself is broken. I think that there's a couple of things. I think one, the Wolverine team up just makes that character so strong. It's actually absurd. And two, I think Cyclops is completely busted when you combine him with a Mantis and a and an Ultron. Which is kind of a common thing. We can talk about how Mantis and Ultron, I think, are actually just problematic characters in the way that they just take whatever is the best DPS and they just make that character even better. The problem with Cyclops is

There are some windows. Like the character's actually weak to things like Cap and Psylock. He's weak to these mobility characters that can flank him and dump him. But not when he has an Ultron drone. Not when he has a Mantis pocket. Then he has no fucking weaknesses. And then he's good at every range and you can never dive him. So I was just gonna say, like, if if it was up to me, I would remove that fucking team up from Wolverine, 'cause it's terri like I I think that that team up is

CaptainCoach (48:31.553)
This is sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

Coach Mills (48:44.511)
Maybe removing team ups is a bad thing to do, but I think that that's terrible or massively increase the cooldown. And I would probably put Cyclops to two fifty instead of two seventy-five. I would make him more less less survivable. And I think that that's probably all you need to do, apart from some adjustments we can talk about later to Mantis and Ultron. I think those characters they just need changes. Those characters just forever, whatever broken DPS comes out is just gonna be even more broken with those characters. I I I d

CaptainCoach (48:53.985)
I like that.

Coach Mills (49:13.94)
And it's it maybe you could say it's not their fault, it's Cyclops' fault, but we've seen it with Torch, we've seen it with Elsa, we've seen it with any flavor of the month DPS just becomes even more busted when you add a mantis and an ultron and triple support every single time.

CaptainCoach (49:27.553)
Maybe we'll use some of that duct tape on your mic to the tape Mantis's hands to her waist so she can't use her leaves or something. I just noticed that. Sorry. Yeah, yeah. So I you you I like that. I like that. Or clear comms, you know, or subscribe, you know? Hey.

Coach Mills (49:32.4)
yeah, you like that? I need to write nerf support on this. What do you think? Okay. Or subscribe. hey, that's a good that's a good point. Honestly, we're really close to 10k subs, and we'd really appreciate it if you'd subscribe. we're gonna have a lot of hype guests coming. We have a whole roster of people that we want to have on. And if there's any other people that you want us to have on, let us know in the comments down below or spam their Twitch. Just spam it. Say

CaptainCoach (49:59.49)
Flats my goat.

Coach Mills (50:01.837)
Come on to the pot, come on clear com spot, come on the clear com spot. I know, sorry, don't do that. But maybe do that.

CaptainCoach (50:05.483)
Let's so you brought up an interesting point that I want to talk about because my favorite subject is talking about hero design, balance, intelligent ways to kind of bridge the gap and and you know, make this divide that we have between high rank and low rank a bit more like navigatable. So you say Cyclops is primary fire, easier easier to

Coach Mills (50:31.395)
Yes. Yeah, super easy. Super easy to land.

CaptainCoach (50:33.239)
To land. I I kind of felt the same way. I don't know the right. I don't know the exact mechanics behind that. But wouldn't would you say that that's a balance mechanism to potentially make it so now that the skill ceiling on this hero is lower, you can kind of make him a little s better in there's not so much a gap between the high ranks and the low ranks. Now that okay. So that to me is a sign that we're going in the right direction, even though he's clearly overpowered and NetEase has shown that they want.

Coach Mills (50:54.765)
I agreed, yes.

CaptainCoach (51:02.881)
The the hero releases to be strong. But but when you have these they've been doing they've been doing it periodically. Yep.

Coach Mills (51:06.499)
That that's actually a really smart point. I didn't even think about that. 'Cause 'cause that's that's the problem with Hella. That's always been the problem with Hella, is that she's just too hard for the average person. So the the b there was just such a huge balance discrepancy between Celestial Plus, players that it could hit their shots reliably, and everyone else who couldn't. And that's why we had Hella debates for four n that's actually a really great point. And like I think e everyone at all ranks are on the same page about Cyclops, even on console, they're on the same page about Cyclops that we are.

CaptainCoach (51:16.237)
Hundred percent.

Coach Mills (51:37.283)
But n people were not on the same page with Hella. That's a that's a great point. That's a great, great, great, great.

CaptainCoach (51:42.21)
Yep. And and so they've been trying to do this now for pretty much since the start of the year. They've been reducing skill expression slightly in ways that it's not too much of a cost in the fun department, but bringing heroes more in line between their high ends and their low ends. So I think Cyclops was a great release because I see the vision. And I I think a lot of people who like to criticize NetEase.

Y you know, you're right to have your opinion, but I think a lot of where the disappointment comes from is just your goals don't align with theirs and they're trying. Like I can tell they're trying I I can see the I think they're actually pretty talented. A couple changes leave you scratching your head, but I think everything they do has some sort of motivation, even if it's just a PR change occasionally, like whatever, plus five tier damage, which actually would be like huge for a lot of heroes. But any thoughts on that before I say the next one with Cyclops?

Coach Mills (52:38.007)
No, no, I so I wanted to talk about so you didn't really play Overwatch, but they did this exact thing where like the idea that an infinitely scaling ceiling is actually not necessarily healthy for balance. Like, and what they did is they made it so that like in Overwatch, the projectiles used to be really small. Like every bullet was really small, every projectile was really small and you could crouch instantaneously. So like people wanted to hit you in the head, you could instantly crouch and and then move side to side and like

CaptainCoach (52:49.325)
It's not.

Coach Mills (53:07.159)
your head hitbox was very, very difficult to hit. And the bullets were really small. So the movement, the movement gap was so massive. And the mechanical gap was so massive that people didn't really quite no one really was on the same plage with a character like Tracer. Where you can make a character like Tracer like with good movement. You're so fucking hard to hit. People have to be so good mechanically to hit you. Like you could take that movement and go into the low ELOs and they can't even touch you. They can't even hit you at all. They can't even

CaptainCoach (53:11.084)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (53:33.881)
Do the the bare minimum of the functions to even interact with you in any way. and and then what they did is they made HP bars bigger, they made movement less, like they it you couldn't move it quite as much, it was easier to hit. they made the projectiles bigger. And like at the time I criticized it, but thinking about this and watching Rivals play out, I I I get it. I get it. I hundred percent get it.

CaptainCoach (53:37.569)
Deadlock.

CaptainCoach (53:54.466)
Game you game's gotta be successful at the end of the day. I mean you said it with Paz, man. Game's gotta be successful. And and Rivals, that's not a knock to anyone who who plays this game in in a competitive capacity. It's not as competitive as as other games. It's not. It's not. Like it's easier to land shots. You know, I mean I I don't have a big background in shooters, but I know enough to know I got better aim on on Magneto with the little explosion skittle at the end than I do on whatever

Coach Mills (54:00.323)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (54:22.573)
I played Counter Strike a little bit. I I sucked. I was a Call of Duty kid. But you know, so I I think bridging that gap in in c clever ways that don't feel like shit is going to in the long term be able to Okay, now we have a middle ground where Cyclops players they all have like decent aim. Now we can to when I saw Cyclops' kit, I'm like, he's gonna have lower damage than another hit scan. Turns out he doesn't really, but I thought that's what they were going for. And that but

Coach Mills (54:46.115)
Not really.

CaptainCoach (54:51.977)
Now we're in a position right. I I I think that's the direction he's going in. and I think that's hopefully what we want to see for a lot of things is maybe maybe don't make the releases super crazy like Black Cat was. And I and I'm sure a lot of people are gonna disagree, leave your comments, but make it so that there's enough skill expression to where you can still differentiate yourself but still operate under this this game system where

Coach Mills (54:52.065)
Maybe he will eventually, maybe he will eventually.

CaptainCoach (55:16.683)
You know, a a rocket can hold down right click and get to eternity. right, you know, like it th there has to be some middle ground.

Coach Mills (55:22.051)
It it would be very interesting, because I I don't know how you feel about Dino right now, but my take on Dino is that he he's good in the right situations. He's reasonably good in the right situations, but he's not busted anymore. I don't know what would have happened if he was just released in the state he is right now. Like like that w originally, you know, like I don't know how much perception plays a role in how good a character is. Like, would people still perceive him to be busted if he

CaptainCoach (55:31.841)
Yeah. I agree.

CaptainCoach (55:50.677)
That's really interesting.

Coach Mills (55:51.604)
Or like d or do people like do people realize it now 'cause they compare him to his old self and they they they knew how strong he was then and they understand his weaknesses now? Like or would they just like, this character's still fucking busted and they'd still be asking for his nerfs because everyone's locking the new character?

CaptainCoach (56:06.101)
I I think i if he released in a busted state and and gambit is still being banned in every single one of my lobbies, then I think after the outrage that was experienced from the high rank community from Dino, most I think most of the lower and mid rank players really liked his release. I think probably everybody would just be fine with him and be like, Yo, this is a great r release. looking back, yeah, the grounding on flyers was a bit obnoxious. It was but

Coach Mills (56:13.829)
Okay.

Coach Mills (56:33.197)
Yeah

CaptainCoach (56:34.643)
I that was actually something I thought they should have kept in and just nerfed in for how long it applied. I mean the way you play against Yeah, I mean well it still does damage at the end of the day. It's decent damage.

Coach Mills (56:38.071)
I pr probably nerfed his other ways. Yeah. I mean he can still kinda contest flyers, you know, you could kinda Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're still you're still bleeding them. Yeah, you're still doing something. Better than a lot of tanks can do.

CaptainCoach (56:49.429)
I I think Dino's in the perfect spot right now. I still think I'd like to see them re allocate the power, still take it away from his big b shield a little bit and maybe blow his cooldowns, I think.

Coach Mills (57:01.497)
That's let's actually go through let's talk real quickly tank, DPS and support. Let's start with tank. How do you feel about the role? How do you feel about the balance of the role?

CaptainCoach (57:09.493)
I I wanted to do one more to s bring up one more point about Cyclops because you you brought up the the triple healer cyclops comp and then before it was the triple healer Elsa comp. And this is this is a problem that I have has like I have noticed in every single competitive game I have ever played is one of the biggest problems communities have with the type of comps that are allowed in a game. And people hate playing against hyper carry comps, like enabling one overpowered DPS.

Coach Mills (57:10.851)
Okay, okay, yeah, yeah. Okay. yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's let's do that.

Right. Mm-hmm.

Right, yeah.

Coach Mills (57:38.224)
It's Well yeah. So so to give you an example, I was playing in like about C one the other day and I Q I Q into J three in Flats. which I I love both these guys. J three plays Cyclops, I play Cyclops, so I I have one game where I play Cyclops against him and it's a fun game. He's peaking, I'm peaking, we're challenging each other on off angles. Sometimes he gets me, sometimes I get him. We we have a good fight and it's fun. And it's a close match.

CaptainCoach (57:39.671)
To just run the lobby.

Coach Mills (58:07.629)
The second game, I queue again. I play against them again, and the guys around them decide to go triple sub. Mantis Ultron. And that f that first game was a fun experience where I got to duel him. I don't get to duel him anymore. I don't get to fight him. I don't get to challenge him. He can one tap me instantly because he has the damage boost. He constantly is getting healed and he gets random damage boost buffs and mobility buffs. The it's not even remotely close. Like in one game, I

CaptainCoach (58:18.101)
No longer up to you.

CaptainCoach (58:35.895)
They just stat they just stat you down. They now they just walk main and stat you down.

Coach Mills (58:37.933)
Yeah, no no yeah, and I I so like one game was an interactive game where I felt like sometimes I got the best of him, sometimes he got the best of me and my individual play mattered, and then in the next game I played against him, the exact same player, he's Stanos and there's nothing I can do about it. Like I can't ever the only way that I can play that game is just try not to feed, do the best I can, you know

CaptainCoach (58:58.901)
No, no. The the best way you can win that game is beg your team to swap.

Coach Mills (59:02.095)
No, we were on Jeff like fuck it. I think we were on Jeff White Fox or some shit. It doesn't matter. Like like that's the problem is those these Voltron comps are if they feel like mirror or lose. That's they that's it. They feel mere or loose.

CaptainCoach (59:04.117)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (59:16.779)
they are. They are. I mean, 'cause you you just can't expect there there's so little margin for error w with the amount of safety that the sustain from those comps provides while not giving up any damage. In fact, I I believe those comps really do more damage. I if I'm being honest.

Coach Mills (59:30.159)
They buy they fucking buy especially if it's like Mantis Ultron plus like another offensive shooting character. Like it could be Mant like Mantis Ultron Loki. I even I even like comps like that. Like just fucking shoot at things. You're doing so much damage. It's actually absurd. I mean, you're definitely doing more damage than if you had a instead of one of those supports you had a Spider Man. You're you're definitely doing way more damage than that fucking comp. Or like a XYZ random DPS that doesn't do any damage.

CaptainCoach (59:52.641)
Sure. A hundred percent.

CaptainCoach (59:57.974)
Yeah, so I mean like historically in games you could look at any game. I mean, with League of Legends, you got Lulu, Cogmaw, War World of Warcraft, the Warrior Paladin, Two V two, whatever TF two, medic heavy. And you you look at these comps and you you say, Okay, why are these able to ooh, I lost it. What was I gonna say? Fuck, fuck, fuck. We're gonna edit this part out.

Coach Mills (01:00:25.687)
It's okay. You're talking about specifically the the triple support, the comps that are broken, or like the the synergies that are broken. Enabled by triple support.

CaptainCoach (01:00:27.784)
CaptainCoach (01:00:37.325)
CaptainCoach (01:00:41.488)
damn. Yeah, no, I don't know. I actually I forgot I was gonna say.

Coach Mills (01:00:43.149)
It's okay. It's okay. We can just cut that part out, no worries. so okay. I guess moving moving on, I wanted to talk about your evaluation of each of the roles. First off with the tanks. How do you feel about tanks are balanced? Like do you feel like it's it's well balanced right now? The tanks, are there any outliers too broken, too weak?

CaptainCoach (01:01:06.569)
Yeah, I think the tank roll is in a pretty good spot. I remember what I wanted to say.

Coach Mills (01:01:14.273)
Okay, okay, we could we get it, let's hit that first.

CaptainCoach (01:01:16.405)
Yeah, yeah. So the I I view playing against supports in this game as for most heroes, I think Daredevil might be a bit of an exception, so I'm so strong. Pretty much any hero, when you are going against a support, it is a skill check that is possible to complete as the diver or the person trying to kill healers, but one that in a team environment is almost always in favor of the support.

Right. So the the evidence of that is the neutral game in rivals usually tends to go on pretty long unless you're very coordinated and are playing a lot better than your team because supports just have so much sustain, so many, so many tools and and ways to kill you that they can command space control areas pretty effectively if they play as a unit. Right. So those skill checks exist. So, like an example would be for a Spider-Man, whatever to kill an Ultron, when you talk about triple healer, you gotta like web

Or whatever, like pull pull him, uppercut like downward slam, web what you gotta do like a pretty intense combo just to get a kill. And and that's if the man you know, and then we bring in okay, so that skill check, a good Spider Man's gonna win that against an Ultron, but now you a add in the triple healer, and a lot of those skill checks now just get completely erased. And now th w where like a s a s yeah, a seventy percent chance for a Spider Man to kill your Ultron now goes to like a two per sorry, a

Coach Mills (01:02:21.601)
Right.

Coach Mills (01:02:34.671)
There's no gap, there's no window. Right.

CaptainCoach (01:02:42.337)
Like a five percent chance. Like it's just it's just not going to and there, yeah, there's not enough gaps for the average player to be able to differentiate themselves in those kind of environments, which is why those hypercarry comps are s feel so oppressive. They feel so oppressive. And and there's there th there's no real counterplay. So you you mentioned reducing the health on Cyclops. That's a big thing because now

Coach Mills (01:02:59.257)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:03:06.985)
one of the opportunities with all that instant sustain is you actually can burst them. Now I I wish there were other ways to other than just reducing people's health because burst obviously is very, very valuable in rivals, which is partly why poke is strong to begin with. It's cause they can just kill stuff really quick from a range. So it's like burst damage keeps it makes your healers have to keep up with that tempo of output.

Coach Mills (01:03:14.125)
Yeah. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:03:24.367)
Yeah, 'cause the the the lower the HP of just like the average character, the less valuable healing becomes. It gives you less of a buffer. There's less of a a pot to fill up, you know? But it does suck because it's like you're kind of nerfing a character because of other characters. So you're doing that consist you're like nerfing all characters because of others. I like I would really just put the blame mostly on like for one, Ultron, I think

CaptainCoach (01:03:34.413)
Exactly. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:03:51.958)
We should really try to be very careful about putting passive healing in any in any of the characters. Non deliberate healing. place it and forget it. I think that that is bad design. I think it encourages these bad comps. Well, you can I'm gonna put this on you and then I don't have to worry about you anymore. because you're you're handled. I don't really think that that's great design. I also think that just mantis like I don't even know what we do to Mantis, but

It's it's it sucks because Mantis is a fun character. I think she's a cool design. She just creates these unhealthy she just creates unhealthy environments. Just straight up. She just creates she always has.

CaptainCoach (01:04:31.223)
Do you do you think Mantis is a balanced hero hero hero if you could never pick her in triple? I feel like she is. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:04:40.141)
She probably is, yeah. She probably is. And she's probably like the biggest reason like if you Yeah, still great. I mean if you wanted to if you wanted to like make an argument for Rolock, which I'm not arguing by the way. I've I've I've we've played these games before, but if you were, I think Mantis is like the number one example of a character that you can use to strengthen your argument. 'Cause she's she would be you you you put Rolock in today and that character is perfectly balanced as is.

CaptainCoach (01:04:44.845)
Still strong though.

Coach Mills (01:05:10.019)
You could probably even buff her healing a little bit and it'd be fine, or like change a few things about her if you wanted to, but like and then you could rebalance Ultron and rebalance Adam, and you wouldn't break the game like you would if you wanted to do that, those things to make them all available in two supports, and you actually could end up making more support diversity in the act of doing it, of creating Rolock. But we could also like.

I don't know if Rolock is just an inevitability for these fucking games eventually. I don't I like like I said, I hate Rolock and I never want to have it in the game. But maybe there's a point in time when people say enough's enough and we put it in the game. I want us to do everything we possibly can to not do it first. Everything we possibly can. and we haven't done everything we possibly can because Mantis is still the same fundamental character that she's always been. So let's let's hit her hard.

Let's rework Ultron, let's do all these things, and then maybe if we just keep running into this problem over and over and over again, eventually we could be like, Okay, okay, fine. But let's try. Let's try first.

CaptainCoach (01:06:15.819)
Yeah, I mean I'm with you. And I think they've they've kind of the changes to Mantis were a step an attempt towards that. I would argue they made her better. But She's fun though. I like Mantis. I do like playing Mantis.

Coach Mills (01:06:22.927)
I I What if we just c took away all damage boost and she only gave speed? Is that not strong enough? It maybe you'd have to make the speed a lot more, or if you did make it a lot more, maybe you'd make bra busted like like if if something has 20% speed boost running at you

CaptainCoach (01:06:35.478)
It's

CaptainCoach (01:06:38.925)
Make it

CaptainCoach (01:06:44.715)
make it her her damage amp have to you you have to touch them in melee and it maybe even make it a little more but I don't know maybe that would be toxic 'cause then you'd just be camping on like a widow or something. I don't know. Some something where it's like there's more of a cost to get it off. Could be cool. I don't know. I I I I like Mantis though. I like Mantis. I've been abusing her a little bit.

Coach Mills (01:06:56.719)
Mm. Right. You have to headshot your teammates. I like I like I I I would love a for a way to make her healthy without ruining her gameplay loop because it's really cool. I just I'm not smart enough to figure it out. Someone is. Someone is. it's not like we it's not like this problem has sprung up out of nowhere. It's been around for a while. So people have had a lot of time to think about it. So

CaptainCoach (01:07:14.807)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:07:24.547)
By the way, if y'all have any ideas for Mantis or Ultron or the problems of triple support, let us know in the comments down below. We'll definitely have an episode at some point where I'm just gonna grab a whole bunch of comments that people have wrote and then we're just gonna read them and talk about them. but moving on to what I wanted to talk about is the the balance of every world. We'll we weren't gonna spend a ton of time here, but I want to hear your opinion about first tanks on the high end, on the low end. Do you think there's any, you know, too strong tanks, too weak tanks? Do you think the role's balance? What do you

CaptainCoach (01:07:54.498)
I think the role is balanced. I think for the average player though, you're going to be finding yourself in situations where you simply have less control over the outcome of a game when compared to a DPS or a healer. Now I know in the in the pro scene they don't feel that way, and there are definitely exceptions. Like I think Rogue, for instance, like Rogue is insane right now. She is she can legitimately one v6 teams if she plays well enough.

There's characters that have really high agency and carry potential. But I I think just that reliance on teammates in a lot of situations really hinders the role in a way that I don't think the other roles have like there's a certain lack of freedom that tanks have because they are they're kind of beholden to the objective because you know they have protection to burst. So I think tank the tanks are in a good spot. I just think there's like a few outlier DPS and healers. Like I think the game's actually getting pretty close to balance that just kind of make it really unfun to play the role right now. But

That's mainly mainly because you have very inconsistent level of healer play and you're gonna be on solo tank a lot of the games. That's the big caveat. Like I think if those things happen, tank probably is a better carry than DPS in in a functioning team environment, which by the way, you get it in like ten percent of your games. So it's like, is it good? Is it not? Well what do you consider? We talk pro play, we talking ranked, we talk on solo queue.

Coach Mills (01:09:01.903)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:09:07.15)
Right, I agree.

Yeah it

Yeah.

'Cause that's interest that's interesting because I was I was watching Kaji, which I'm a I'm a fan of Kaji. He's a he's a top rank support player. and he had to play DPS in his tournament on the team. So the team he was put on, he had to play D PS on that team to give his team a chance. Because when he played support in a content commun like a content tournament where the lobbies were very ranged in skill, he needed to be on DPS to give his team a chance to win.

Aramori was on Emma. She was on Tank to give her team a chance. and it's interesting because I think that when the lobbies are, like the further apart a lobby in skill becomes, characters that have the most amount of freedom are the characters that carry the most. And the characters that have the most amount of freedom are the characters that can do the most with the least amount of resources, which are almost always DPS. Cyclops can take an angle and kill two people with no healing, no support, no help.

Coach Mills (01:10:14.915)
That is not the case for a lot of certain like certain tanks. You can't really do that on Group. You can't really do that on Mag. Even Hulk requires a lot of resources. Now there are some tanks that can kind of cheat the rules a little bit. I think like Cap can cheat the rules a little bit because he doesn't rely a lot of resources. Rogue can cheat the rules a little bit. They don't requ they don't require. But like the less the more the the more resources you require to function, the less you can do. Or the more responsibilities you have, the less you can do. Like, you know, like

CaptainCoach (01:10:28.534)
Stallers, self sufficient heroes, penny.

Coach Mills (01:10:44.059)
if you're in a random lobby, with players that are very, very mixed skill, I would much rather be the Cyclops than be the cloak and dagger. But that's not necessarily always gonna be the case, depending on the like the s the skill like how high the skill of the lobby is, how close the skill of the lobby is, you know,

CaptainCoach (01:11:00.909)
I feel like the higher quality a game is, the more chance a take a t a tank has to affect the outcome of a game.

Coach Mills (01:11:07.297)
Agreed. I I can a hundred percent agree with that. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:11:10.423)
Feel like the lower quality a game is, the more support does. Or yeah, like you said, DPS. I guess it depends. Right. Yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (01:11:15.071)
Or or just like a DPS that's like raid bossing. It's like one of the two, yeah. Like a a completely unchecked DPS that's killing everybody or sustain that just prevents anything from happening, basically.

CaptainCoach (01:11:25.249)
I I feel like a lot of su support right now up until you get to a certain rank is really just which team is going to make less mistakes with the alts. I think that's a lot of what like a lot of what climbing is so as a support player, if you're just better than their support at using your ultimates, you may not carry in a way that a DPS could, but you're gonna make sure your team doesn't get carried on, I guess. Like you kind of stop the the nonsense if you just know how to use your alt and you know, so

Coach Mills (01:11:48.897)
Yeah yeah.

Coach Mills (01:11:53.508)
Man We were we played a game with Full Milo Lamps, who is gonna be a guest on the podcast at some point. It was a fun game. And he he might be the only creator that hates supports more than more than you do. and that's why I didn't I I and we're I'm trying the opposite of like bringing on people that next pod if someone if someone is a support player that like really doesn't think support is very strong, wants to argue for

CaptainCoach (01:11:55.176)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:11:59.224)
That was a fun game.

CaptainCoach (01:12:06.509)
He dude, that guy's good.

CaptainCoach (01:12:18.955)
I love supports, Coach Mills.

Coach Mills (01:12:20.599)
Wants to argue for the the viability of supports and the buffs of supports. Come on, we can have a battle between you and Full Metal Laps. But anyways, he made a he made a TikTok about the cloak and dagger that was on our team, who I didn't know I didn't know until like halfway through that game. Because I was playing support pool. I didn't know through halfway through that game that that cloak and dagger was not in fucking comps. So when I was communicating, okay, all right, I pop, I pop support pool. I was like, okay, I'm I'm gonna trigger jackpot in four seconds.

CaptainCoach (01:12:32.0)
really?

CaptainCoach (01:12:42.049)
Ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (01:12:49.155)
Four, three, she fucking cloak opts. I'm crashing out. Cause we have ten more seconds. The two and then the eight of the jackpot and we're just wasting a cloak ult. And and you know, it was it was very, very, very bad. but but it's it's weird because like on one hand I get so mad because I I I always communicate positive and I I wanna like communicate and I wanna set up plays, but like

CaptainCoach (01:13:02.965)
It it was really bad. It was it was really bad. It was really bad.

Coach Mills (01:13:19.043)
That cloak and dagger obviously turned off comms because they probably get berated a lot. So like I get I get why they turn off comms. But it's like, I'm not trying to berate you. I'm just trying to communicate and work with you. And but now I want to berate you because you're out of comms and you fucked up our play. That we that shouldn't have been f You know, like if if you were just in comms we wouldn't fuck But but I I'm not I don't I don't actually no, no, no, no. I I I just yell to Chad. I never yell at a person. but yeah, we we

CaptainCoach (01:13:33.677)
Mills! You're supposed to be the voice of reason, bro. Good cop, bad cop.

CaptainCoach (01:13:46.124)
No, we we play a good cop, bad cop. I I yell at him, say a couple words because we'll say it's okay, it's okay, we got this and then listen listen to him and I'm typhon to him in squatching. Tell her to do this! Tell her to do this

Coach Mills (01:13:50.58)
Yeah, I know it.

Coach Mills (01:13:56.878)
And you and you and you and you and you and Kingslayer is like bad cop worse cop. No, no. Bad cop cancelled cop. Yeah. but but yeah, so anyways, he'll be on, so though they'll d there'll be plenty of support hey going forward. But like I you know, I've been playing support a lot, actually. I've been playing a lot of support pool, I've been playing a lot of Luna.

CaptainCoach (01:14:01.58)
that's just Yeah. No, I play good cop with with him, shit

Coach Mills (01:14:26.111)
I want to make I want to make the record clear. So, you know, I I put out tier lists, I put evaluations on characters. I was dead wrong about support pool. I'll be the first to say how wrong I was about the strength of that character. because that character is busted. I think the character is very, very strong. I love abusing that character. And there's a couple of reasons why I think I completely missed the mark. The number one is I was a tank pool abuser, and for the longest time, I just thought, hey, tank pool's the best pool.

pool to play. Play tank pool. Don't play any other pool. And I was mad when people locked support pool or DPS pool over my tank pool. Once tank pool got nerfed and weakened, you know, I didn't give support pool like a true evaluation. But that character is very, very good when played properly. that's another problem is like there was like, you know, I would I would ask the opinions of chat and even high rank players and no one would really give me a straight answer about like the right way to build the character. So I couldn't really figure out

Like I had to kind of navigate it myself, get a lot of advice from people. support pool is a very interesting type of support that I think kind of breaks the rules of support. and that's probably another reason why I was completely wrong about this character, because I think this character is crazy. The damage that support pool outputs is much, much higher than tate tank pool right now. Like way higher. The support ult is comparable to a mantisole that you can delay the trigger. You can either pop it early and rush a team.

Or you can delay the trigger and like give your team a very long drawn out mantis ult that can last for like twelve seconds. and like like there have been times where I've popped ult. We ran in, baited out a luna ult, they pop Star Lord ult, then I trigger jackpot and I deny the Star Lord ult by you know tanking with my team and and and healing it with jackpot and then so I I successively baited out the Luna Ult.

stop the Star Old and we just basically win the the I'm gonna get my old again faster than that Luna's gonna get old like it's such a like a like a character that kinda breaks the game to the point where it's almost scary 'cause I feel like that character could really break the game if he was like like really, really break the game if he was even slightly stronger.

CaptainCoach (01:16:36.413)
How yeah, how much do you think support pull being good is he's very mechanically demanding versus knowledge checks on how to use his cooldowns at the right times? Like what what's what's more important?

Coach Mills (01:16:48.313)
It's like it's it's like ninety nine one. Like it's mostly just using your cooldowns at the right time. 'Cause cause the with the bounce he's no d DPS pool is hard to play. Support pool is is really it's mostly about game sense. It's almost all game sense. 'Cause the reality of it is with the bouncing ability. So like the bouncing ability, once you upgrade that bouncing ability, it it throws it out, it heals and does damage, and then it comes back to you and throws it out and comes back to you and throws it out, right?

CaptainCoach (01:16:53.899)
Really? I always thought he was harder to play, but I don't know.

Coach Mills (01:17:16.291)
That does a crazy amount of damage. So you can just kill p kill things. Like I'm saying like magnitude's more damage than tank pool. You can literally just win a 1v1 with that ability. What that ability also does is it triggers jackpot. It runs through enemies and like every enemy it hits, it will trigger jackpot once. So like basically you just throw it into a crowd and then it it does it twice and you get jackpot. So what that really means is you can just trigger jackpot late or whenever you want to. You know, you run in, then you could just trigger jackpot.

You play defensive, you wait, you wait, you wait, then you trigger jackpot. Like you get to basically just trigger jackpot, which those of you who don't know, jackpot is the the big burst of healing that you give to everyone around you with your swordswords. Yeah, basically, yeah. So you can effectively trigger it at any time. In fact, what I'll do is I'll let's say I let's say I I'm fully leveled, or I'm leveled enough, and I d I can actually build my ultimate. I just walk up to my team, I let them fight, I throw in the bouncing thing and shoot and heal.

CaptainCoach (01:17:56.898)
Ta ta ta ta

Coach Mills (01:18:15.987)
One cycle of that. So one cooldown will get you your ult. Then you wait two or three seconds, whip out your swords, pop your ultimate. You're gonna get that bouncing cooldown back before your the jackpot ends or the ult ends, and then you could just trigger jackpot. So like it w it's w it's one cycle to get your ult and then you have your ult. It's like it like it's

CaptainCoach (01:18:37.921)
Yeah, he you can be so aggressive on this hero. Like I you can be you can push the tempo so so so quickly and just out outpace people.

Coach Mills (01:18:43.459)
That's yeah. He's he's a he's a pure tempo character, which that's what I love so much about him is that he he but he he does require team team play. Like if your team is not pushing in when you pop it, they're they need to be your team needs to be matching that pace. Communication really matters. It's specifically if you have one tank that matches your tempo, it's amazing. But if you don't, it's sometimes it sucks. It just feels bad.

CaptainCoach (01:18:51.201)
He's he's cool. He's a cool cu h hero.

CaptainCoach (01:19:12.737)
Dude, w we were we were running our lobbies when you were on support pool. We were running shit.

Coach Mills (01:19:14.955)
Yeah, yeah, we were just running it down. Yeah, yeah. Well 'cause 'cause you you will match that tempo and then you ha you have plenty of resources to just go as deep as you need to or do as much as you want.

CaptainCoach (01:19:23.517)
I'm pro heel pull. I like when heel pool's on my team. I've come full circle. He's he was it's he used to be like old Jeff, which I wanted to ask you, because we were talking about how strong a hero should be on release. We said Black Cat was too strong and then you know what that looked like. Heel pool by pretty much everybody in the community thought not a hero you want on your team, weak on release. If heel pool was released in his

Coach Mills (01:19:28.308)
Hey.

CaptainCoach (01:19:52.152)
Current state now that he's I mean, I think he mostly got he got I guess he got into the buffs right here. He got buffs. I mean he got fifteen seconds off of his to added to his ults, I was a nerf. But overall, like not a very big one because it's you still get one every fight pretty much. Like right? Like I I mean, would you say that's accurate? He's been buffed, is what I'm saying.

Coach Mills (01:19:55.81)
He got he got buffed slightly.

Coach Mills (01:20:11.321)
you get yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean yeah. He it it wasn't massive buffs from his so h his launch, he was super busted because there was no cooldown on pool ult at all. Like or no, yeah, would the th so no there was a cooldown, but if you died and came back, there was no cooldown. Like so you you you you just you just got died in like there was no cost to just use ripping it. To be honest with you, that's that's the fun thing about pool.

CaptainCoach (01:20:22.393)
so even so y

CaptainCoach (01:20:30.573)
Okay, right, right, right.

Coach Mills (01:20:40.117)
all the pools is like the knowledge gap is crazy. If you could take what you knew now and could just apply them to tank pool back then and support pool back then, you could just run every lobby. Speci Yeah, I mean really every lobby.

CaptainCoach (01:20:51.339)
Yeah, that's so you do you think release heel pool was which was a hero that was like forty percent, thir like like in the like really low win rate, is on par knowing what you know now with with Black Cat.

Coach Mills (01:21:05.751)
They they they should have been like it should have been like an A tier, A tier plus character, most likely, on release and you just didn't know. Like it you don't know how to build it until you like in it's just there's just a lot of knowledge you gotta kinda figure out. No one really knows what the abilities do. The fact that the bouncing the bouncing thing triggers jackpot, how much damage that does. I mean, think about even tank pool. Like, in my opinion, release tank pool.

Before they changed the ultimate, before they did anything, release tank pool is the strongest character that this game has ever seen. Launch Tank Pool. Day one. I honestly think that that character could completely run lobbies, and people didn't know how much he could. How much he could run lobbies. He could you could just if if you knew what you know now, you're a good tank pool player today. I think you could go back and just be the best player in the world for like a week until people just like looked at your game plan like,

What the fuck is he doing? shit, I can do that? What I can I can ult an Invis, run in the back line, kill a DPS, kill another DPS, kill the Invis and no one can di no one can kill me? No one can do anything? Cause they literally can't, because you have infinite health and like I think it's just it but it's crazy that it took time for people to realize. It like took there's a big gap, you know, like ki kind of exactly what we're talking about before, how long it takes people to get good at a character.

CaptainCoach (01:22:26.743)
Well, how much would you attribute that to just the fact that they released three at once? That it's kind of spread. 'Cause I I

Coach Mills (01:22:32.889)
Ooh, that it is spread. That is true. Because people are also finally figuring out that DPS pool is really good too. Like people are have finally coming around to DPS pool. It took took forever on that character. And people are kind of realizing that especially when he's fully leveled, he might be the best DPS, dive BTFs in the game. Like, I think fully leveled DPS pool is better than Daredevil. But only when he's fully leveled. For the the trick is most of the game, he's he's he's not, he's like a shell, but like at

You know, when he's fully leveled, he's insane. He's fucking super insane, but you know. Yeah, it it is interesting. That's it's interesting.

CaptainCoach (01:23:10.753)
So those those periodic buffs though, and then for tank pool nerfs, I mean, you would you rather have a tank pool release or a heel pool release? 'Cause that's kinda like w for win rate, I guess at least, is like the opposite end of the the spectrum. And that that's kind of what like bringing the whole

Coach Mills (01:23:17.197)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:23:26.307)
Mm. Well yeah. I mean yeah, even people didn't quite know Tank Pool in instantly. They they did find out rather quickly, but I don't even think that they knew just how broken. Like they knew he was good, but I don't think they realized just how good.

CaptainCoach (01:23:41.102)
'Cause to me, like you know, Elsa, another super broken hero, that hero was overpowered because she had a more or less a pr I think a simple kit. I think she's hard to play, like high skill ceiling, but she's pretty straightforward. Like she does percentage damage to tanks from a range. You're just gonna pop a tank anytime they get close, so then just like all people out of her like her she was simple and really like stat wise overtuned. I think the the the hero releases that are more choice based.

Coach Mills (01:24:03.608)
Right.

CaptainCoach (01:24:09.609)
Is kind of the direction this game should move in. having more tactical abilities that you can use quickly, give you value, but don't necessarily auto-win you a fight. It's more about pairing like like like okay, I'd rather have something like whatever, make it so you can't do anything for a couple seconds than one-shot you, right? Or I'd rather have something that like maybe moves my teammate from here, like utility cut type spells rather than always just

Coach Mills (01:24:14.831)
That's super

CaptainCoach (01:24:39.681)
More damage, more, more, more. 'Cause that I that's like why Mantis is like a problem, Ultron

Coach Mills (01:24:43.713)
It's it's interesting the point you made about like people of R right, right. It's i it's interesting what you were talking about though, like people evolving because like as an example, I think Cyclops players aren't gonna get much better than they are right now. They're gonna stay the same about this same tier of play for like they could individually get better, but I'm just saying like

CaptainCoach (01:24:47.767)
Blue type spells.

CaptainCoach (01:25:02.412)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:25:07.801)
They're not learning deeply more about Cyclops because the character doesn't have like this infinite vat of knowledge to learn. Like like we like with Heelpool. Like Heelpool started off with a negative win rate and then like did get some changes, but regardless of those changes, the win rate would have massively shifted as people actually learn how to play the character in the same way that DPS pool has. and honestly, Tank Pool too, if they just would have kept him in his in his state, he probably would have released because he did release on the strong side, released at fifty one percent.

then over the next three months if they didn't change him climbing even higher, fifty three, then fifty four, then fifty five, you know, it would have it would have but that's not how Cyclops, I Cyclops is probably just gonna sit at this, you know, fifty two, fifty three, high win rate. But it's not gonna change because the character doesn't have there's nothing to figure out. He he's pretty on the nose. You know, you you take an angle, you shoot people like

CaptainCoach (01:25:59.788)
Yeah. No, I I totally agree. And I I it kind of justifies them maybe releasing him as strong as he is. You know, we talked about the damage. Like it kind of Yeah, like I I don't see what variation you could make to him that would really change how he's played too much. you know, I don't maybe there's some new strategy that I I just I mean, that's the the fun part about the game i is like what who knows, maybe they'll release a hero that

Coach Mills (01:26:11.331)
He's in his final form, like right away. Like yeah.

Coach Mills (01:26:22.785)
No, there's I don't think so.

Coach Mills (01:26:27.631)
Yeah. Just keep yeah. There's some could still be some broken tech around the ricochet people don't know about. I mean i if maybe if there's like some tech, like if you shoot it if you ricochet at the left foot it like double ricochets or some shit, you know, it kills instantly. But like that's interesting. That's very interesting how De Deadpool is just like a very interesting just study.

CaptainCoach (01:26:27.947)
I don't know. like deflects his lasers and it does I who knows? Like

CaptainCoach (01:26:38.455)
Team up.

CaptainCoach (01:26:44.509)
Yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (01:26:56.471)
In hindsight, I think that that was one of the best characters they ever released. I know it was technically three characters, but the fact that we've gotten to a point where, yeah, one of them was really giga broken, but like support pool all this time later is actually finding their footing. And DPS pool is actually finding a place as well. even when on release they didn't. Like this is like best case scenario for a character. but like not every character gets to do that. Like Blade did not.

Like it didn't matter how much people tried to make Blade work. the character was just fundamentally bad and he needed buffs in order to become good, which I don't think is necessarily the same truth to the, you know, these characters that have really deep, you know, kits that they just needed to figure out. interesting.

CaptainCoach (01:27:43.959)
Definitely a fan of the more complex heroes, but not so much the bag of tricks on Black Cat you know.

Coach Mills (01:27:50.904)
N maybe h maybe intentful complexity instead of right, like that's just random complexity. Yeah, like yeah, that's that's y yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:27:53.943)
Sure. Sure.

CaptainCoach (01:28:02.455)
I mean, I guess there's a certain level fun that comes from the simplicity of of something. So you can kinda like the the for instance, the reason I like Hulk is because you don't really have to be too locked in from a mechanical perspective to deal your damage. It's more about where you position, right? So you know, you're not reli he he's a more of a macro character and you you you think more in that sense strategically. So it it's it's really satisfying, because it's it's very unique to to having to

Coach Mills (01:28:25.293)
Right.

I could see that. I I feel very similar about Thor. I feel very similar about Thor 'cause I I don't feel that way. If I don't get like all my aim training in, like before I play like a certain type of aim character, Silock as an example, then I feel handless. But like I can just queue up straight on Thor and I feel good. You know, I i my game sense is the same. Like I'm st I still think it's just I don't need to warm up and do all this like perfect micro things. I like it's the macro like you talked about.

CaptainCoach (01:28:57.515)
Yeah, Thor seems like he really flows, just always has some kind of movement option.

Coach Mills (01:29:02.221)
Yeah. Speaking of Thor, we got above Thor. I I I made a post a while ago that was like it was a meme that's like Thor in D tier. but like now I actually kind of feel like he is in D tier. Like it was a joke then. It was a joke back then. And now it's not a joke. I mean, I don't really think he's in D tier. I think every tank like there are there are DPSs like how do I put it? D and below tier, there's only DPS in those tiers.

CaptainCoach (01:29:04.429)
Coach Mills (01:29:28.515)
There is no D and below tanks. There is no D and below supports. I mean, Adam's solo, but like it's weird. It gets weird. It gets weird. But in triple, he's but he's very good. but yeah, Thor, I I actually do, I know it's gonna just sound like propaganda coming from me. I actually do think he needs buffs because I think he's the worst of all the off tanks right now. once again.

CaptainCoach (01:29:33.111)
I don't even think there's an A in below supports. I think all supports are high A or S. I'm not even like it's that's kind of true though. Adam. That's about it. Even Adam, though, is good.

Coach Mills (01:29:58.894)
I actually don't care if he's viable or not. Just if he is weak, which he is right now, can we at least get an ult that works? That's all I ask for. Just an ult that works. Make it do something. Make it allow me to cancel it. If I fly above a Luna, press Q. And the Luna pops ult, don't make me slam down there and die. Let me f let me cancel it and fly away. I don't know. That that's why that's my take. That's that's my only take. I don't I don't know how you feel about Thor. I just feel like this is probably

His worst season ever. Ever. Probably. At least in Haylo.

CaptainCoach (01:30:32.725)
Yeah. Well I I think again just adding all these really strong damage heroes to the game is gonna kinda affect the tanks that are more based on taking damage and d being able to withstand the output there. Tank tanks are to me the first victims of power creep. And I would argue there's a bit of that going on right now still with you know triple he like Thor I feel like he was really bad into triple.

Coach Mills (01:30:59.659)
yeah, yeah, yeah. He c unless people are not paying attention, yeah. Like he's good at finding gaps in like bad teams, but at the second people are all looking at you and shooting at you at the same time, he's not like Venom that can shrug off damage. And he's not like Mag that can protect himself from it. He is just gonna die if if

CaptainCoach (01:31:18.657)
But i I dude would you say it's a bit of meta too, dive being a little less prevalent. Thor's probably a pretty good answer into dive, right?

Coach Mills (01:31:26.433)
He he's not the best answer. He's he he's kind of just a jack of all trades, master of none. But like I feel like you just want a lot of specialists right now. Like things that are do one thing very well. I mean, Thor's always gonna be great sub celestial. He's always gonna be great 'cause you just get to do a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and it's good enough, right? In a lot of ways Thor is very D PS like where he just gets a lot of flexibility if as far as how he plays.

CaptainCoach (01:31:28.895)
No, definitely not the best, but

Coach Mills (01:31:53.978)
But he's also DPS like in the fact that he can just die. And that is like when you need to do tanking jobs, he just is not your guy. When you need to hold a point down, he's not your guy. When you need to hold space, play a front line, can he's not your guy. I

CaptainCoach (01:32:12.417)
He's pretty feaster famine from what I've seen in the higher ranks.

Coach Mills (01:32:14.303)
Yeah, ye yeah, you you either barely getting away with everything and you're never dying, or you're getting away with nothing and feeding every single time. unfortunately on the character. It's funny because we we've talked about like the power creep argument. It's like I think like if Thor was released today, he would look like Thor in the PvE zombie mode. Like like like that would be what he's is flying around fucking blitzing through li but no, he's just he's just he's just one of those characters right

CaptainCoach (01:32:34.026)
Mm-hmm.

CaptainCoach (01:32:39.949)
This has permaflight with the hammer. That'd be sick.

Coach Mills (01:32:42.883)
Well that's he's just one of those characters that is probably gonna slowly get outpaced by power creep over time, most likely. He's he's just like when you do a little bit of everything but nothing great, eventually there are gonna be other things that do a little bit of everything better and you know, you're just like kinda getting buried a little. Okay, so we talked about those. any other, you know, outliers you think? Any too strong tanks, or you think it's just it's all reasonable. I don't

I don't really think it is any like broken tank I would like tank pool buffs. I I'm I'm only arguing for buffs of the characters I play, but I am Ooh, he is very good. He is very good. He is very, very good too. But

CaptainCoach (01:33:10.517)
CaptainCoach (01:33:17.313)
Cap is definitely the best overall tank right now in the hands of a good player. But I don't even think he's feels terrible to play against, though. It's mainly just his alt. I think it's just so much it's just it's such insane value. I mean, the best gaps can actually Right, it's it's just so useful and ranked, just giving you extra fights. So and then the alt charge generation.

Coach Mills (01:33:28.255)
No he's not.

Coach Mills (01:33:34.511)
'Cause it's like a support okay. It's like a supportal, yeah.

Coach Mills (01:33:44.004)
That is that is a good point. It says ult is is is incredible. That's I think that you could it I think it ult is the if you did want to nerf I don't necessarily think he needs a nerf, but if you did want to nerf him, ult's the easiest thing to do because it doesn't it doesn't change the experience of the lower rank lobbies or the lower rank players, but it does make him weaker in the higher rank lobbies. You know, we we talked about like I think you that's a change that you can make that actually works. You know, like

CaptainCoach (01:33:49.537)
Well it's

Coach Mills (01:34:11.511)
Weakening his damage, weaken his sir hit his survivability, those are things that are gonna be felt by low rank players. But if you just nerf his ult charge or nerf his ult duration or nerf his ult sustain, those are things that more will affect high rank players without ruining the cap experience for low rank players, which I think is probably a reasonable change.

CaptainCoach (01:34:31.233)
I actually think that's an is interesting point 'cause normally I I would like just off of the principle of it probably disagree with you. But I think with Cap it he is a unique case because of the coordination required with his ultimate when I t I don't I don't because normally when you have alts that are click a button and get value, if you nerf those right. The lower ranks. Right. But but for cap all uniquely in particular, it that

Coach Mills (01:34:51.021)
Yeah, like Sy Sile Sile would be n heavily felt by Yeah. Right.

CaptainCoach (01:35:00.045)
coordination knowing when to like, we re we'd run in with this, or tell your supports, stay in the fight and let's win the fight because I'm about to cap alt after like all the support alt slop goes down. It's like you now you have another 10 seconds of not dying. That's a better offensive alt, you know, as Fox said, than a a a DPS alt. And then you get the alt charge. It just you get so too much value. Too much value for free.

Coach Mills (01:35:14.103)
Yeah. I it it's also right. It's also kind of funny you say that 'cause Venom was also a unique one that was not felt. Like that 30% and like the 30% increase in Auntie and like all the changes to Venom, none of that really matters when most sub Grandmaster Venoms don't actually do the grasp combo. They don't do the grasp combo. You need to do the grasp combo.

In order for that ult to be able to kill through Invisal, in order for that ult to be a consistent ultimate, you know, you pop grasp and then at the halfway mark you pop your ultimate. and that is like ultimates that require ultimates that are free value are gonna be ultimates that the lower ranks really feel the changes to. And ultimates that are earned value or game sense oriented value or teamwork oriented value, they won't feel the changes.

CaptainCoach (01:36:01.996)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:36:08.685)
So so by that logic, then with the Venom change where they gave him healing reduction debuff on the ultimate, do you think that was a change that cause I'm sure Venom is most people would agree is a hero that is really, really good in the higher ranks in the hands of a skilled player. But in the lower ranks, even though you know he's a big ball stats, probably not so much because he's very dependent on like a certain level of aggression and he's kind of technical with his primary. So do you think that healing reduce

Coach Mills (01:36:27.794)
he's very good, yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:36:38.583)
kinda made it like bridge the gap as we were talking about earlier with like lower rank heroes 'cause the he this gets at added value that in higher ranks, you're just going for one shots anyway. Or did it make him even better in higher ranks? Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:36:45.921)
I I don't see I I think it made him better in higher ranks. Cause if they wanted to do it for lower ranks, they would have just gave him more h HP, I think. They would have just made it so that it converted more HP instead of more 'cause basically what that does, you just have the ability to kill through defensives, which I think low rank players would just not able to do no matter what. Like if they don't combo well not just the combo, you team focus fire too. You're just not getting that. You're just not getting team focus fire either.

CaptainCoach (01:37:15.981)
Just make his primary hitbox just way wider. That's how you buff him in lower ranks, right? He's kinda hard it's kinda hard to hit, like

Coach Mills (01:37:18.447)
Well yeah, but but I I wouldn't why like yeah V Venom's a that's an interesting Venom's an entire interesting conversation because I think Venom is a great designed character. I know that that might be a hot take. because on on on paper he should run low elo lobbies. He should run them.

CaptainCoach (01:37:36.545)
He's a tank, he's an actual tank.

Coach Mills (01:37:42.596)
Because he should be because cause high Elo with all that coordination, they still can't kill him reliably unless you have the right comp. Even with everyone looking at him, they can't kill him reliably unless you have the right combination. So on paper you'd think, shit, this character is probably broken in low Elo. But they added enough skill checks to his kit, enough skill ceiling to his kit. You need to cycle in and out properly. You need to know how to slam in and out properly. You need to know

how to time your E. You have to time your E. The lower in HP you are, the more HP you gain, the more shields you gain. So that's another skill check. The grasp into the ultimate, that's another skill. So like they added all these skill checks that make it so that this character that should be a giga broken stat monster in low Elo isn't because most low Elo posts cannot do XYZ, which I think that that's just genius. I I don't know if they did that on purpose or is it a complete accident.

But it's the thing that keeps them in check. Like, can you imagine if you didn't need to do any grasp timing in order to get the same one shot capability on Venom? If you just were very, you know, forgiven for, you know, swinging in, swinging out. Maybe you just got to swing in and then you get to swing out. Easy swing, simple swing in and out. you just pressed E and instead of the lower HP, the more shields you gain, you just pressed D and it just gave you a thousand shields no matter what. Doesn't matter your HP, you just press it.

CaptainCoach (01:39:01.633)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:39:03.971)
Th I think the character would probably just be completely unbalanced in Loila. So I don't know. I maybe they backdoored their way into that. I mean, we don't really talk about this is good design. We only talk about the bad, you know, but I think it is good design. Like Venom is good design.

CaptainCoach (01:39:17.729)
Yeah, mean he's I mean, I know win rate this, win rate that, right at fifty percent, and higher rank you go, it creeps up into, you know, a bit higher. What how do you feel about Emma right now, since we're still talking about the tanks? I really.

Coach Mills (01:39:29.743)
I she's good. I think she's I think she's not great always. But I think there's enough tank matchups you could play her. So she's like she's good against any dino comp if you play against Dino. she is a good supplement to a lot of frontline tanks. So like if you're playing Mag or Groot or something, like

CaptainCoach (01:39:51.598)
'Cause she's the most picked tank in GM, Celestial Eternity, by far. And I think that accounts for her her win rate being a bit lower than other tanks. She's sitting at forty eight percent against non mirrors, which is, you know, definitely on the weaker side. But I would also say like, yeah, because you're being played by way more people, the average skill level is probably gonna be a little lower.

Coach Mills (01:40:08.13)
Not great.

Coach Mills (01:40:16.205)
Lot of filling to her. she's she's a pretty good solo tank comparatively to a lot of characters too. She has reasonable solo tanking tools. I I think that Emma's in a fine spot. I don't think that she's like broken. I don't think that she's underpowered. I don't particularly like her gameplay loop to play it, but if we're just talking about from a power level point of view, I think it's I think it's reasonable. yeah, I think I think most of the roster on tanks is actually balanced.

CaptainCoach (01:40:18.027)
Yeah. She's a popular hero.

Coach Mills (01:40:46.595)
More balanced than we've seen in a long time. The tanking role actually has been really re reasonably balanced for a while. I did want talk talk about the DPS rule though. any anomalies. We I've I've talked a lot about low rank players. I I've got a lot of feedback from the comments. They basically said like there are some low e low tier characters that they the general population is just fine with being low tier. So like I I I kind of brought up I I brought up this point a lot about like

The idea of Squirrel Girl, what if you made Squirrel Girl have a really high skill ceiling and you changed her kit and you made like a natural arc so that she's better as you get higher rank? Same thing with Scarlet Witch. But like the general pushback I've gotten in the comments is No, actually it's okay that there are characters that are just not viable. Like they they they just fall off. Like it's okay that certain characters are good in low Elo and not good at high ELO. And you know, I can understand that. I think I could relatively agree with some of those points. So

How do you feel about that? Do you feel like there should be changes to like the like like the squirrel girls and the storms and the scarlet witches and the hawkeyes? Or do you think, no, actually these characters it's better if they're not good? and then, you know, on the high end, are there any outliers that you would like to see nerfed? Any B tier characters you would like to see B meta?

CaptainCoach (01:42:05.665)
yeah, to me Star Lord is is a pretty big problem. I think they just were s they went so overboard with with him evaluating where where the skill cutoff is for being able to just pick every game now. You you just pick if you're good enough on you just pick them every game. I feel like I I don't think there's ever a bad time to pick Star Lord.

Coach Mills (01:42:16.832)
Hey.

Coach Mills (01:42:24.513)
It picking on a game. I I was watching so I played a little bit with Super Stupid, who's a Hulk player as well. I played a little bit of games with him. and he was banning Star Lord as a Hulk 'cause he's a Hulk one trick 'cause he's like you can't contest it, you just can't do anything about him. Like he's just he's uncontestable.

CaptainCoach (01:42:41.353)
Yeah, w if once once the Star Lord reaches a certain skill level, you know, we talk about the skill checks that, you know, the seventy thirty with the Ultron versus Spider Man. With Star Lord, you'll you c you can't do anything. You need help. And even then it's you're only going to slow him down. You're never going to stop him. Silock functions similarly, although not as bad and with more opportunities to counterplay because her cooldowns are a bit more the gate her in her mobility. Star Lord, he's just obnoxious and

Once you like I said, you hit a certain point. I mean, I I'm this is this the Hulk matchup. I'm sure there's you know, but i he's he's just I don't think there should ever be a hero, and this is kinda why I brought up Emma that should just be able to be picked every single time in a game

Coach Mills (01:43:26.485)
so y you taught you think Emma's really strong. I see what you're talking about. okay. I thought you were talking I thought you were saying that Emma was weak. Okay, yeah. 'Cause I put Emma I think I Emma in my S tier. Like I put her very strong. I put her very high. Yeah. 'Cause she just fits into every she just fits into so many comps. I mean, yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:43:29.365)
Yeah, yeah. I think Emma's there's never a bad time to pick her.

CaptainCoach (01:43:36.683)
Yeah. No, I think she's top three tank and just Yeah. Yeah, simple, easy to play, never loses a fight.

Coach Mills (01:43:46.992)
She I I think she's probably not that strong when players are better. I don't know. I I maybe that's wrong because Emma's become more disciplined, but she can only really grab one person. She doesn't have the ability to stop everything. If if people are more coordinated in their engagements, she gets weaker. I would be curious her egg like her her pro pick grey. I don't know. Like I know the pros matches are going on right now. I'm very curious about how much they're playing her in their games.

I know that they favor dive and mobility but she's like the antithesis to that. She's like I ain't moving but I'm stopping, you know, I'm

CaptainCoach (01:44:23.403)
Yeah, so I mean I got a winning a lot of games, pushing for eternity, and then, you know, we you you all of a sudden you get an iron fist and a wanda on your team and you're in a certain rank and it's just like G G we lose. So, you know, it it it raises an interesting argument where you get to a certain point, you know, we mentioned B P earlier where the heroes just stop working and you can't really get mad at the people for p playing them. It's like what do you do? It's a ethical dilemma, which I've

Coach Mills (01:44:32.911)
Ha ha.

CaptainCoach (01:44:52.961)
Gone back and forth in my head quite a bit about it's like

Coach Mills (01:44:53.175)
Yeah. Yeah, it's a it's also like you also sometimes you have to beg the question if so I like 'cause how you know how it works? I know this is a we're getting it kind of in the weeds. I know I know we're not gonna talk too much about EOM E om, but getting no.

CaptainCoach (01:45:10.055)
I I read I read the PDF on Endmatch. I was ready to go with it, but we can save it for another time if we want. I I I've I've I see the numbers of the Matrix.

Coach Mills (01:45:15.925)
no no no no no well well yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. No, but anyways, I I watched their response. So you know the response video they had to Eom, like the accusation. So I watched that video, it was a pretty long video and I read all about it. How performance based matchmaking works is it's comparing like there's a lot of factors that it takes into account. Part of it is like, you know, what what your rank is relative to the lobby. You know, if you're like a like a diamond player playing in a grandmaster lobby, you're gonna get more points, whatever.

Of course, MVP and SVP is gonna get you, you know, MVP is gonna make you win more points because you're overperforming. How they calculate that is they calculate your individual performance into like this algorithm that also compares you against people that play your character at your rank. They come they're comparing because cause otherwise it would be very hard to evaluate does this character deserve MVP? Does this character deserve SVP?

If they're just looking at the raw numbers, 'cause Scorgirl's always gonna have more damage than fucking Spider Man, right? So they they wanna f they wanna compare, okay, these are your stats on Spider Man. What is the average Grandmaster two Spider Man stats look like across all lobbies? Okay, it's this. Okay, are you above that or below that? And then then they compare you to your team. Are you above that and below that? So like like are you above or below they're above and below compared to the other people in, you know

CaptainCoach (01:46:39.159)
Yeah. They're all th it's a it's a bunch of parabolas, the the the tail end being your peak rating and and where you're you know, and then those can change and I'm sure they have algorithms that can like track that. And when you're in rank up games, I suspect I mean they didn't say it explicitly, they they do talk about matching you with preferred roles. There there is actually, believe it or not, I I if if Marvel Rivals uses N match, which I don't know if that's confirmed.

Coach Mills (01:46:44.399)
Right.

Coach Mills (01:46:51.287)
Right. Right. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:47:02.84)
Interesting.

CaptainCoach (01:47:09.281)
There is actually already soft roll queue in the game. EOMM does actually benefit you in a lot of ways. That's also I think why there's a tank tax because

Coach Mills (01:47:12.867)
I mean they they

Coach Mills (01:47:19.257)
Well that the I mean we we could we could talk about I mean we could go down that rabbit hole. I I was I was making a different point, but like the the the problem the whole problem with the EOM debate is the they have never publicly stated that they've used it in Rivals, even though they created it a long time ago. So that's that's the problem. They've never publicly admitted that they've used it. I mean you could find you could try to find it, but they've never publicly admitted that they've used it. But what I'm what I'm specifically talking about is I'm just I'm I'm talking about as they describe it.

CaptainCoach (01:47:37.665)
No I

Coach Mills (01:47:50.016)
So what what I'm saying is that if you are overperforming on as Wanda in Celestial, you can farm SVPs performance po b bonuses h at a higher rate. So like it's harder for me as Cyclops to get those performance bonuses because the standard to get a good Cyclops stat is so much higher because every Cyclops is is dropping 20 and five, right?

CaptainCoach (01:48:01.706)
I see what you're saying. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:48:18.339)
But the average Wanda in Celestial is probably dropping some some dog shit stats. So cause X Lex made a video responding to the EOMM thing and he he came to all these conclusions and I responded to it because he made all these these things about how about the rank system and what I was saying is there he's actually beneficiar he's a beneficiary of it because he's an overperformer on a character that people consistently underperform at in the ELOs that he's in. So he's actually gonna be gaining more than, you know.

If he did the the exact same amount of wins on, you know, a character like Punisher, because the the average value is higher. And I'm not saying any I'm not taking anything away from his skill anything like that. But what I am saying is that when you see a Wanda or an Iron Fist, or maybe not an Iron Fist, but like a Wanda or a Squirrel or whatever lord in your lobby, you always have these questions. Did this person even have a positive win rate to get here? Did this person have as positive a win rate as I did to get here? You know, like did you know that's

CaptainCoach (01:49:11.962)
let me

CaptainCoach (01:49:16.477)
You are you get ready, clip clip this. You put this at the start of the podcast. Most people in ranked benefit from EOM. Most people do. Not everybody. Most people. I'm telling you, because like like you said with the performance points, everything is

Coach Mills (01:49:27.564)
my god, fucking

But that but that but the but what I what I'm talking about is this isn't this I mean you could you could call this Eom if you want, but this is what they admit to doing in their game. This is not this is not this this is what they told us about the ring system in response to people saying, Hey, you have Eom. No, we don't have Eom, but this is what we do. We do this. It's like

CaptainCoach (01:49:52.535)
How is rewarding players for against other players not even in your game conducive to inc increasing the ranked competitive integrity of a game? The only th it should be completely random.

Coach Mills (01:50:00.483)
The the I I'm t I'm tell people people have argued people have argued this to me forever. It has to do with a performance based system. We operate under a performance based system where they are trying to take factors about your individual performance and put that into account with how much points they're giving you. If you played well, you're gonna get more points. If you played bad, you're gonna get less points. But this but but but the but

CaptainCoach (01:50:21.707)
That's EOM 'Cause those people get to a rank that they shouldn't be in and then that's the matchmaking and it's it's

Coach Mills (01:50:27.143)
The the same people that scream EOMM to me, I'm not saying you, I'm just saying other people that have, they they are the same people that get mad when they lose the same amount of points as their inting Spider-Man. It's like newsflash. If you want a flat system, no performance, a loss is a loss. You eat the loss. You eat the loss, a win is a win.

CaptainCoach (01:50:32.191)
Anyway.

CaptainCoach (01:50:48.444)
yeah. Well yeah, a lot of people

Coach Mills (01:50:52.611)
It it doesn't matter if you went 40 and 2 on Hulk and I went 10 and 10 on Spider-Man, we gain the same in a win. And we lose the same in a loss. And and people don't like that concept. But if you don't want that concept, then you create this performance system that has all these loopholes and all this bullshit that maybe feels EOME, EOMM-ish. But I and I'm I'm fine with getting fucking rid of it, but I don't know if everyone else is.

CaptainCoach (01:51:16.855)
Player base needs to realize that a lot of you actually benefit from EOMM, but once you understand this one thing, and this applies to a lot of other free-to-play games, you, the player, you're the product. Okay. Not the skins you bought. You you are an advanced AI put in the games that now the game can be advertised as a competitive player versus player game to give people that experience.

You are essentially a a tool that they use for fast cues to keep everybody on and in the cycle of playing this health bar go up, damage bar, stat point type game. You are you are the product. Your your whatever your behavior is being manipulated by the rank system to create basically increase the game's market share and allow for more people to be playing at once and and

You know, chasing that ranked dragon. And that's why a lot of people can get get into celestial tr I see it so clearly now, Mills. It's so obvious. Like once I read the PDF, that it's this c cracked this case wide open, man. It's Apex Dobby got me onto something good, man. Which by the way, we need to get him back on. I'm telling you. It here look one more thing, one more thing before I end.

Coach Mills (01:52:16.463)
Hehehehehe

Coach Mills (01:52:30.575)
Why it why it's it's no no I I I know, I know but okay, okay. You y I'll let you go.

CaptainCoach (01:52:37.217)
So, so player behavior, okay, how do you beat it? So you are the product. They are encouraging you, they're giving you the freedom. You can swap to whatever you want. They want you to do that. So if you want to climb rank, what do you do? You fill for what your team needs, you roll your eyes, and you you go and play mag because they have a punisher. You be the difference you want to see, and you will climb. That is that is the game, unfortunately. So they are basically encouraging people who want to climb. Hey, you're gonna have to go through this hurdle to make the game quality for this other asshole who, you know.

Is benefiting from this system, not going to do it. And that's you're throwing Spider-Mans. And there's limits to this. How will how much you are willing to swap is almost directly rated r related, correlated to your rank in to a certain extent, I think. 'Cause I mean it's you see it Mills, like the higher rank you go, more mantises, more ultrons, more triple supports. The BPs they cap out at C two. I mean, it all comes it all makes sense, bro.

Coach Mills (01:53:26.095)
I mean that's that is true. But but like the of course there's gonna be like here here I think that there is a how do I put it? If you're good enough, you don't have to be flexible. I think that's the I like like me being No, and but but but I but I I think there's some truth to that. If you're good enough, Pirate King Momo is the furthest thing from fucking flexible you could possibly find. And he hits rank one, he consistently top five hundred.

CaptainCoach (01:53:33.451)
You are the product, you.

CaptainCoach (01:53:41.431)
So I tell my teammates every day.

Coach Mills (01:53:55.137)
And the reason

CaptainCoach (01:53:55.179)
He also I I think he I think he's a pretty smart player, but there are he he runs it down sometimes too.

Coach Mills (01:54:02.453)
No, he does. But but what but overall he's still climbing. And he's not filling, he's not flexing, he's not playing Ultron or Manchester or any of this bullshit. If you're good enough, you don't have to you don't have to follow those rules. I and and and that's kind of why I I and and and I'm not and I'm not trying to like completely roll my eyes at the idea that EOMM or or whatever. Because like I understand why people think it even though Netties has never publicly said they use it, they also

CaptainCoach (01:54:14.859)
Yeah. He he's a he's like a true gamer.

Coach Mills (01:54:29.113)
We just have to take their word for it. Like, we just have to trust people. I I like trust is hard and you don't you don't have to believe the rank for the system obviously feels like dog shit. So like it's very easy to be like, you wrote this, it doesn't matter how many years ago, you're probably using it, whatever. Here's the thing that I kind of roll my eyes at it at it a little bit is with the performance system, getting to Celestial is just a matter of time if you're good enough. EOMM, Noto EOM, bad matchmaking, good matchmaking. If you're good enough and you're perfect

producing consistent stats, you could just sleepwalk your way to Celestial, right? Because of those stats. And even once you get to Celestial, if you are good enough, if you're consistently good enough, you're still going to be able to climb. And people do. Like, like, once again, trust me, always gets the top 10 if you're good enough. And I think that's at the rank where it's like if you want to take this game ultra seriously, you just need to become better and be better than other people. So like I don't really understand

the large complaints. I think there's a lot of people that have complaints about the rank system and being bad and it is fucking bad. But

There's a lot of this that people are using to just kind of cope about like this is there is no this is why you're stuck in this rank. That doesn't really exist. We've kind of seen that. If you deserve a higher rank, you'll get to that higher rank. I don't know if you agree with that. so it it

CaptainCoach (01:55:52.466)
a hundred percent. It's a choice at the end of the day. I just don't think it's a choice a lot of people want to make. And I I'm totally I agree with them. You should you should be able to have a certain expectation that you could play your hero and be good enough to win on him. That's the that's the th appeal of the hero shooter, right?

Coach Mills (01:56:04.013)
Like 'cause like like like it my my my thing is like people are just gonna be frustrated no matter what. Like people are gonna be fr like you could you could people are blame let's just say people are blaming Eom right now for X, Y, and Z bad matchmaking. Let's say we got rid of Eom and it's like a perfect flat based system and it's like a full fully transparent system. I think people might even be more mad when they're faced with like the reality of their own skill and like how far it takes them. 'Cause they have nothing to blame.

CaptainCoach (01:56:30.964)
yeah. I

Coach Mills (01:56:31.747)
They they they they have nothing to point to, they have nothing to talk about. They just they're just at the rank that they are, and they are because people are very toxic and mad about Valorant too. Like very, very mad, mad at the rank system, mad at their teammates, mad at the game, mad at everything. When the reality was it like you they just weren't good enough to be into the next rank. And I think that a lot of that is still true, even if the rank system's dog shit.

CaptainCoach (01:56:42.923)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:56:53.069)
here.

CaptainCoach (01:56:57.033)
Here's the thing though, with a truly random ranked matchmaking system, purely random, based off of, you know, you have to put some constraints on getting people within your ELO range. What I like, right? There's always going to some c type of measurement that's going to be used to give yourself give yourself reasonable cues, right? And you know, that whatever, okay, how much we draw the line there, whatever. But when when a truly random ranked system is used.

The the counter to your argument is that those people complaining won't be at a rank worth considering their opinion. Cause they'll never so it's it's th at a certain point, the good players will rise to the top. Either way. I I I think there is that definitely still happens, but it it it's only for like like dude, what is the skill gap between Celestial Three and Top 500? It's it's the same skill gap between Celestial Three and Bronze Three.

Okay, that that's the difference in skill. Right? So so w that kind of c aligns with what I'm saying that any like and most everybody agrees that you can just get to whatever rank if if you whatever play enough games and and and then, you know, getting to that next step is is that's where, you know

Coach Mills (01:57:55.567)
I mean that's that's true. That's tr I mean that's actually true.

Coach Mills (01:58:12.897)
I I I don't know. I I I have a hard time I don't know. I I guess I just have a really hard time buying into this Eom system where it's like everyone is universally pissed off at the game's ranked system. Everyone hates it. It isn't engaging anybody. I the amount of people that I've I've met that have messaged me on stream that's like d does this game still have Eom? I quit that game because it's terrible. And it's like

CaptainCoach (01:58:21.452)
I don't s

Coach Mills (01:58:38.923)
If you're quitting, then you're not engaged. Like I I I really just think that they these people are just like I basically what I'm saying is like I don't think it matters what the rank system is. A there's a lot of people that would still be mad. Like no matter Eom, no Eom. And like to to your point, if they're if they're putting in some type of soft Q lock where they're trying to balance the lobbies at least a little bit as far as tank, DPS and support, they it's making games feel better than they otherwise would.

CaptainCoach (01:59:00.172)
They are.

CaptainCoach (01:59:07.115)
Yep. Yep.

Coach Mills (01:59:09.165)
Like things could be worse. Like people people are like people might be like, fuck this thing, this system that you're using. It might be worse. Like if if if if if the ranks regardless of what you call it, if the rank system adequately puts you into the tier of of rank that you ultimately deserve, it's it's fine. Like I think it's reasonable. I don't know. Maybe maybe you don't agree that it's doing that well enough.

CaptainCoach (01:59:35.213)
shouldn't be doing anything well enough other than being completely random. I've I will stand by that. I I don't it would, but it it would eventually sort itself out and then now you have more truth. You have more I an idea of like what's

Coach Mills (01:59:39.819)
It but it might make the game qualities far worse.

Coach Mills (01:59:45.71)
It but but would it would it would it sort itself out though? 'Cause if if every time you just have you're saying that of well What if sorting itself out is is you're miserable because you're only solo tanking every single game?

CaptainCoach (01:59:50.348)
Yes.

CaptainCoach (02:00:00.843)
it it would definitely be worse. So then people would realize that even more so we we probably need some s some type of role queue. But yeah, that that then then you get to the conversation. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:00:07.811)
But like but like that that's that's the thing is it's like it's like there are problems that they are might be like there are problems that you can solve without necessarily pr presenting it to the class. I I don't know how to describe that, you know, like

CaptainCoach (02:00:19.573)
Yeah, I get what you're saying. yeah, I mean i I I j yeah, I mean that's

Coach Mills (02:00:26.241)
I I I guess okay, what what are what a the people that are that I cause you you're you've become a representative of people that believe in ELM. What do y'all what do you actually want? What what's what do you what what do actually want? Cause at at this point nothing that he says will convince anyone that still believes in ELM that it exists. So nothing they can say will matter. So what can they do that would satisfy?

CaptainCoach (02:00:50.745)
yeah, after your initial placements, which I think should be maybe ten games and then another twenty where your rating is kind of inflated, meaning you get more for when you're looting. I don't think it should be it should be about thirty games. I don't think it should be any more than that. After that initial cutoff, every game you play after that you can expect more or less the same ELO gains or ELO losses. And it should be based purely off of the rating that you you have on your team and the ratings that they have, the average together.

Everybody gets the same for winning, everybody gets the same for losing.

Coach Mills (02:01:23.801)
So on so on that we agree. So we might not believe in the same things, but on this but on the s but on the solution, we agree. I think that would I I think that that would make ranked better. I think it I it's it's more fair and it's more transparent. So I agree with that solution and like we are in agreement, even though we didn't get there the same way, we agree with the same the same thing should be done. So I mean we we really do. Because

CaptainCoach (02:01:27.937)
Well, that's not how the game works right now.

CaptainCoach (02:01:41.13)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:01:48.513)
Yeah, none of this the higher rank you get, the more you lose.

Coach Mills (02:01:50.883)
Cause even Death, Death would a hundred percent agree with you. He Death adamantly disagrees with EOMM, but he a hundred percent percent agrees with that, what you propose. And I think Gallus believes in EOMM and he also would a hundred percent agree. Like, we agree on the solution to the thing, even if we don't agree on the same pro like the problem, but it doesn't matter if we agree on the same solution. Like whether you think like like if we if we think whether you think Cyclops should be nerfed because he's gigabroken, busted hit scan.

Or I think that Cyclops could be nerfed because he creates an unhealthy balance. If we both agree on the same ultimate conclusion, it's fine, right? I think. That's the thing is they probably agree on ninety-nine fucking percent of things. They actually probably do agree a lot if they just talked with each other. Imagine talking with each other. Fucking hey.

CaptainCoach (02:02:28.097)
Not if you're light and flats. No, I'm just joking. No

CaptainCoach (02:02:39.083)
Yeah, I I think Yeah. You gotta get on. All right, yeah, I I don't wanna I don't wanna blog people down with the EOM talk too much, but

Coach Mills (02:02:48.397)
No no, we should bring it a surprise EOMM every pod. I like No but like no one's gonna ever you know and people people say people will call you delusional, people will say that I'm coping, people will say that I'm a shill, people will say that you're you know you know, chasing a rabbit. I don't fuck it I I don't know. I don't know what the people just say whatever they wanna say, but you know, two sides. We we have our own opinions, but we we do agree with the same conclusion.

CaptainCoach (02:02:52.279)
Just yeah. I just I read the end match.

Coach Mills (02:03:17.625)
So down below, I want y'all to let us know, are you in favor of a flat performance gain and loss? Or do you like performance-based MMR? How do you feel about it? I can understand performance-based MMR for like bronze and silver. For like Smurfs, but like outside of that, like it should it shouldn't be in the game. like there's no like if it smurf we don't need a s an anti like performance-based MMR, in my opinion, is only for anti-smurfs.

CaptainCoach (02:03:33.707)
Yeah. Sure.

Coach Mills (02:03:46.042)
We don't need an anti-smurf system in a Celestial Plus lobby. It doesn't make sense to me. Anyways, and yeah, and and I w I just played a game before we hopped on the pod where I was the only fucking tank on my team of triple DPS. I played really passive, I played really safe, I contested objectives like I was supposed to, and I gained sixteen! I got sixteen! And

CaptainCoach (02:04:04.779)
You get nothing. You get fucked. It is literally better to hold the lobby hostage on widow until someone swaps to a second tank, even though your chance to lose is much greater doing that. Because when you lose, you'll you'll lose nineteen because you're competing against all the other widow throwers who are doing the same thing. But you're locked you have to be locked in to lose sometimes. You you have you have to be prepared that you're just gonna get screwed over and then just

Coach Mills (02:04:30.915)
No. I mean, yeah, d no the the tank the tank tank tax is fucking bullshit. I I I I've tr I've tried not to bring it up too much because you and I are both tank players at our core, but it's fucking bullshit. Anyone who's played tank understand it. And I think tank tax actually creates less tank mains than any other thing you could do. You want more tanks? Yeah, you want more tanks in the role. Get rid of tank tax, create flat ba flat plus minus. There should be flat plus minus.

CaptainCoach (02:04:32.309)
You know, like when w as it's happening, just be like dodging bullets.

It's so dumb.

CaptainCoach (02:04:50.644)
Such a motivation killer.

CaptainCoach (02:04:57.961)
Everybody should get the same for winning, everybody should get the same for losing.

Coach Mills (02:05:01.357)
Yeah, I like regardless of my stats as the solo tank, I was more individually impactful than any other fucking player on my team because I was the only tank. That's just how it works. the things I did were things that only I could do because I'm the only tank, but I didn't get rewarded for that in the system because I I'm doing fucking nothing when I'm contesting objectives and I'm holding space and I'm denying the enemy tank from taking our front line, blah blah blah blah blah. It's it's a bunch of bullshit.

CaptainCoach (02:05:29.077)
You have a you have a harder game, more is asked of you, more pressure is put on you, and then you get a big fuck you from the game. Get the fuck go go go go play tank again, and then a Cyclops main is born, and then the problem gets worse. It compounds. Ha sh show love for our tanks. Let's start a movement.

Coach Mills (02:05:38.063)
okay, last before we talk about our review and we do bingo, I want to ask you about supports. How do you feel about the support balance right now, like within the role? Like are there any outliers you would like to see nerfed? Any characters you'd like to see buffed?

And just like the roles relationship to the other roles. What what do you think about support right now? We are gonna make nerf support merch, by the way. just permanently wearing nerfs. That becomes the only thing you ever wear, no matter where you are.

CaptainCoach (02:06:11.681)
Nerf every support, the role's broken. Let's do bingo. Let's do it. No

CaptainCoach (02:06:21.453)
I'm excited for this. I'm a I'ma buy I'ma buy twelve. one for each day of the the week or whatever. You get different color every day.

Coach Mills (02:06:36.513)
Hey, whether you're on a plane, anyone that sees you in public will just yes. we l we we do love our support players. I I I do love my support players. As long as you're in comps. As long as you're in fucking comps. I I'm not gonna flame you. I just wanna I just wanna not double low, okay? Please please stay in stay in fucking comps.

CaptainCoach (02:06:40.669)
love it.

CaptainCoach (02:06:52.245)
I I think my my my stance is I'm not going to forget about the past, but I'm going to be realistic about the future. The past being yeah, a couple of supports here and there have received periodic nerfs to talk about Gambit, the Invis push, but really those didn't move the needle much at all. It's really the buffs that cause other supports like Rocket now, Mantis being thrust into the meta. It's like let's just keep chipping away at it one patch at a time. I think the patch we just had was a good patch.

You know, l leave Mantis the way they are, gambit the way they are. Hey, let them simmer for a little bit. They're actually at like pretty healthy win rates if you care about that sort of thing. And then it's just like, okay, let's worry about the sports that are actually just way too easy to play and and and see if the output is the the the effort required is similar to the level of output and make that the same for like every healer. And I'd say big outlier is rocket, obviously.

And I would say even though Mantis is definitely like a little harder to play than the average hero hero. Fox says hardest, I think her output's still a little too high for what she provides. And I I still stand by I think a hero like Cloak and Dagger balanced support. That she's like the the gold standard and and you know.

Coach Mills (02:08:09.239)
I might be in the minority. I l I think Rocket being the best support in the game is my favorite kind of meta. I mostly not because Rocket is some great support to play into. It's just better than Invis, Luna, any other support that I could possibly think of, because he doesn't just kill you when you fuck up into him or whatever. that being said, you could probably nerf his power level a little bit. I'm I'm a little bit afraid 'cause I think we're in a place where

The game is fairly balanced and reasonable, but I do think that the next cure character we get is probably gonna be a support that's gonna fuck everything up, most likely. I mean, just undoubtedly is gonna be the case. If if you don't think the next support that comes out is gonna be even more busted than Dino was on release, you're probably just gonna be wrong 'cause it's probably gonna be broken. I mean the next character's probably gonna be a support. Probably gonna be buck broken ten ways to Sunday.

CaptainCoach (02:09:02.359)
So you're okay with a a rocket player in the same rank as you egoing you? 'Ca the the this the effort

Coach Mills (02:09:11.563)
Hey at they're in fucking comps! At least they're in comms! Holy shit! I I'm gonna keep bitching about the same thing, but I've never been egoed by a rocket player before.

CaptainCoach (02:09:20.829)
it happens to me all the time. All the time.

Coach Mills (02:09:23.001)
well y I mean you you started. But they t yeah, I never say anything to them, so like I just bitch I bitch to my chat about them. But but I never say anything directly to them, but yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:09:35.583)
What it creates some situations right where if a hero is just way too strong for no effort, output i is not related to the effort required. You you have this like power dynamic where people again, like I I talk about it's just like I want balance to at least be kinda close so people are actually in the ranks they belong. And that's again why I'm kind of against EOM I want I want there to be real I th

Coach Mills (02:09:58.445)
The pr the problem is like the problem is even in a world with no EOMM and just flat plus and minus, you'll still get that when there's broken characters that come out. You'll still you'll still get I mean, 'cause like, I don't know if you think Overwatch had Eom, but it i when Brig came out, it boosted the character was so broken and easy that it boosted characters players that were I mean to top five hundred, top one hundred levels, like just some ridiculous

CaptainCoach (02:10:08.458)
yeah, for sure. But you're mitigating it.

CaptainCoach (02:10:22.725)
yeah.

Coach Mills (02:10:27.543)
ranks that they never belong in. And you could see it after the character got heavily nerfed that those players just fell. and that that is in a plus minus system just because they embraced the broken character and the broken character was so much better that just due to the nature of embracing it, they gained way more rank because they just climbed. They're just they're just on the like like imagine if Rocket wasn't in the game and it released this season in the steady is right now.

The players that just decide to pick up the new character rocket will just win more than the players that didn't decide to pick up the new character rocket. They're trying to do normal shit, and they're not, you know, they. it was kind of interesting because, you know, I've been playing a little bit of Cyclops now. You know, I I we hit Eternity and then I fell out of it. During that first little four or five days, it was like three or four days, I felt like there were a lot of Cyclops players that were completely.

CaptainCoach (02:11:00.781)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:11:24.751)
Completely utterly handless and then now I feel like they're all good. Like they all know how to play the character. Like I like I got a lot of free kills on people that just really just didn't really understand. so maybe I got boosted by knowing the character a little bit faster than, you know, learning the character a little bit faster than them.

CaptainCoach (02:11:41.238)
I think it's cool, when I back when I played League, it was always interesting. Y you know, you had a general idea of who I mean League has a lot of heroes, but specialization in League on one hero is way more common just because there's just so many. So y you generally just wanna be good enough to, you know, pass all the knowledge checks. So whenever whenever a hero gets buffed that is considered off meta, and then you see the the the top mains of those heroes, like the one tricks go from

you know, whatever, master tier, and then they shoot all the way up the challenger. It's like, okay, how much is that is the player or the hero? And it usually it's it's it's such like an interesting thing to happen that I feel like is kind of lacking in rivals. Like the the hero specialization isn't that important. It's more about just cause there's such a gap between and and such like a like a hard, like almost like rock, paper, scissors counter system in in some situations where you don't feel like there's

skill expression all the time in the ways that r you really would like to see in a game. And I think heroes like Rocket are

Coach Mills (02:12:41.667)
I that that's pretty normal for hero shooters, unfortunately. Cause they it 'cause the 'cause being yeah, that's fair. Like I this kind of bring goes back to this topic you brought up a long time ago, a game mode that you could never swap, you know? Like in a world where you could never swap characters, you might see that deep specialization. But in the world where you c you know, like you could have someone that has is deeply specialized in a dive character, but you just can't really see that in a world where like

CaptainCoach (02:12:45.365)
Yeah. I I I think they go too far in that direction though with heroes like Rocket. It's a little too much.

Coach Mills (02:13:10.701)
The best thing to do is just to swap.

CaptainCoach (02:13:11.059)
One season? Yeah, one season, no swaps. No swapping allowed. That would be crazy. Fucking Doctor Doom stops time or something. You gotta no no change in

Coach Mills (02:13:16.131)
Be insane. It'd be insane if you accidentally imagine if imagine it I mean so Echo this was kind of a weird thing, but Echo had a mechanic where if you killed somebody with your ul like after you copied them, they couldn't swap characters. for a little like but it only lasted for one life. But it'd be really cool if you could do that on a character. Yeah, like prevent the swap would be kinda cool. you're stuck

CaptainCoach (02:13:40.813)
I that's really neat.

Coach Mills (02:13:45.945)
But then it's like it's like, hey, swap up Spider-Man and it's like you're typing to the enemy doom. Let my fucking Spider Man swap you piece of shit. Like You're locked and he's locked. It's okay. That's actually

CaptainCoach (02:13:47.573)
Someone's throwing on Widow.

Ha ha ha

It's like quick, somebody go that hero and make it so you can't swap. Keep him on that doc shit as hero.

We're all locked. I'm locked in, man. I'm for it.

Coach Mills (02:14:11.227)
yeah. I'm very curious what they're gonna do with team ups going forward. I I I have no idea. They have been. I I know I get it, they're pumping out a crazy amount of content. maybe too much content considering they did delay like a lot of their big big things that they're releasing, like the big game modes and stuff, they delayed all of that.

CaptainCoach (02:14:16.343)
Team ups have been lacking a little bit.

CaptainCoach (02:14:31.307)
I suspect they're being overworked. It it's a lot of content. A lot of they've had to they're trying to keep up with the community demands. They're they're they're struggling to keep their head above water if in my from my point of view.

Coach Mills (02:14:33.732)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:14:38.808)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:14:45.581)
Yeah, yeah, I think that that's gonna keep being a problem going forward. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:14:51.123)
what do you think about what Samju said just one season where they 'cause that's how the light flat stuff started. One season or one or two seasons where we just focus on fixing everything, like balancing.

Coach Mills (02:14:57.536)
sorry.

Coach Mills (02:15:03.719)
I mean I would personally love it. I think optimization, make this game not run like shit. I think that's one of the reasons why this game is so popular on console is because the game actually fucking runs on console and not PC where I'm dropping to sixty frames on a supercomputer. F a fucking four thousand dollar computer. Can't even I can't even imagine what a just a normal computer would be like trying to play this goddamn game. Yeah. so yeah, like fix optimization, fix balance.

CaptainCoach (02:15:25.431)
PCs at NASA couldn't run this game, man.

Coach Mills (02:15:33.613)
you know, let us sit in a meta for a bit. The problem is, you know, what I talked about where it's like, I don't really think it matters what they do as long as they just consistently give us new shit. Like that is probably a safer play. Cause if you take a two, three month break to fix the game, balance it.

CaptainCoach (02:15:54.187)
the casual base would die off.

Coach Mills (02:15:56.89)
Well well they would die off and if you somehow still don't fix the game then the then the competitive players are pissed like you could like it's kinda like I feel like constantly releasing new characters is kinda like a safety valve you just get to like it just protects you. You just like as long as you keep doing that, you don't you know

CaptainCoach (02:16:01.407)
Make it even worse.

CaptainCoach (02:16:16.791)
Yeah. We're releasing tons of content. The game can be imbalance. It's fine.

Coach Mills (02:16:21.039)
Yeah, I mean I mean if I think back at any any game that I ever played, no game ever died releasing consistent content. I don't think that that is even possible for a game to die. Yeah, if if if if a game the only time a game like the only time Overwatch died, they didn't release a character for like a year and a half. And no maps either. Like they basically just put up and pulled the game. Apex went through a similar problem where they just literally just

CaptainCoach (02:16:25.109)
That's fun.

CaptainCoach (02:16:32.045)
As long as it's good content.

Coach Mills (02:16:49.325)
completely stopped fucking with the game. Nothing new. Nothing added. They were just like, we're working on this and that. I mean, I'm trying I'm just I'm really trying to think of a game that was like like even Destiny. Destiny is finally kind of like, you know, it's gonna get packed up. It's it's kind of they they they've admitted that they're leaving it or they're they're pulling out.

CaptainCoach (02:17:07.169)
This Bli Blizzard notorious for long time to make changes. I game I played called the the Culling was a BR game that was around for a while. One of my favorite games of all time. They actually bounced fixed stuff pretty quick, but they ran into the problem is they made some really bad changes and fast. They killed their game off really quick. Their game had a healthy, like niche audience and a like a nice small knit community.

And they made enough changes that I mean the game was purely competitive. That's why you play it. You want to be the last man standing. It was it was you put on an island, you you you forage for supplies. I actually created strategies in that game that ended up getting nerfed if you really want to talk about it. So I I created some Yeah, yeah. Like I actually affected the balance of the game a little bit. It was I I it was my favorite game. So yeah, I'll I'll say it real quick. It's it's cool. So basically you had like a resource where you got from basically trading in supplies, like swords, weapons that come from like crates and stuff that you

Coach Mills (02:17:39.758)
Right.

Coach Mills (02:17:43.919)
That's actually sip. That's actually sick.

CaptainCoach (02:18:00.663)
Put the machine and you get the the weapon you want that you're spec'd into. So it you had like a a like out-of-game specing system that you'd spend the money on. And so that it would encourage you to get kills in a BR game instead of just play safe. Right. And I was, you know, I was I played the melee builds. I was aggressive. I like to go for kills. But you you you play the game enough, you want to think of what like how can I just win every game. So there was a perk that you got that nobody went. I wish I could remember what it was called. I'd probably just like AI it Google it. But basically it was a perk where every time you go to the machine.

And the the resource was called funk, try to get currency, try to get funk, you get p one more funk than you'd normally get. So you you turn in like a fifteen funk spear, you get sixteen. You turn in like a a five funk bow and arrow, you get six funk. Well, there was a little strategy you could do if you spec into the perk that had it don't worry, I'll get there, it's worth it. You spec in the the perk where you

Coach Mills (02:18:55.341)
No, no, no, no, no, no. Kee take your time.

CaptainCoach (02:18:59.743)
It's all mobility. You go the endurance, which is what was a pretty popular one. You go move speed. So you can just run all the time. You just go around the edge of the map. No one able to kill you because you're the fastest person in the game. Pick picking up all the rocks and sticks. Rocks and sticks. Rocks and sticks. Go to the machine. All those plus ones now are plus two. You double the amount of the trash you get, but you're able to basically get the best weapon in the game like 10 minutes before anyone else, which is which is the gun.

Coach Mills (02:19:27.107)
Ha ha ha

CaptainCoach (02:19:29.505)
So that's what I would do. I would just run around picking up rocks and sticks, completely n a pacifist. No if somebody tried to fight me, I'd be like, Nope, I'm spec'd into speed. So I and it was so cool. But they took away, I mean, that was probably a strategy that should have got they basically made it so you it didn't I I can't remember what the nerf they even what did to it, but they they they nerfed it. They made it like it doesn't work on rocks and sticks. And yeah, so I would get the guns. I'd be running around where people have like like

Coach Mills (02:19:50.735)
It doesn't work.

CaptainCoach (02:19:55.636)
spears made out of wood and flint and I got a fucking oozy of just like cutting them down. And then the the best part is the people who were were doing well, I'd still beat a w they'd have like a tier three weapon, guns a tier four weapon. I I kill them and get their their their shit. So now I'm like a server admin and it it was a way to it I'd win like half my games doing that. And eventually people were like, you're not doing that strategy this game like, nah, nah I'm not and they yeah, they nerfed it. They were quick to balance the game, but they made so many bad changes. They actually made it pay to play.

Coach Mills (02:19:58.986)
Ha ha ha

CaptainCoach (02:20:25.527)
They made the Colina pay to play game, killed the game overnight.

Coach Mills (02:20:27.289)
Yeah, I I I think you would need to like you need to get over a certain hump before you build like that audience that will stick around forever if you just keep producing content. Like if they don't do the right decisions to even get to there that level, like how big was the game, like at its peak? Was it it bigger, like a massive game? Ten. 'Cause it's kind of similar to like supervive.

CaptainCoach (02:20:44.471)
Ten, ten K on Twitch viewers, like like about half arrivals, maybe at speak. Well, and at its peak it was very popular. Like all the like big variety people were playing, like like two, three thousand viewer streamers. Like and then the core community, I think at that time I was like around fifty viewers. There were like the top the the most known person in the community was like two, three hundred viewer guy named guy named LaBrizzy. I think he probably still streams, but like the bigger streamers would come and, you know, like I feel like if I feel like Shroud, a lot of people.

Coach Mills (02:20:53.453)
they played it.

Coach Mills (02:21:11.363)
Come and see it. Not a lot of people.

CaptainCoach (02:21:13.995)
Yeah, it came in pl it was a popular game. It was cool. It got a lot of attention. It had a like a nice core community. And yeah, so th there is a downside to I to to bring it all back, balancing the releasing stuff too quickly. Cause if it's shit, you're gonna kill your game faster than if you so I you know I'm with Som G Man. Like I I think, yo, give us like this take a take take some time.

Coach Mills (02:21:27.713)
If it's if it's ba if it's bad, yeah, that makes sense.

Coach Mills (02:21:35.343)
It's I it's such a slippery slope. 'Cause I remember Halo Infinite, like that was a game that like that g that game created a lot of opportunity for me because I I became basically like one of the only educational content creators for the game. Like I was the only like big one basically. And it it was making a lot of money, it was doing really well. They basically made bad decision after bad decision and then they basically kind of abandoned the game w in in a way where they just like didn't do anything. Nothing new.

Nothing new came out. No new skins. No new no new fucking guns. No new maps. No new no nothing. There was nothing. It was just this long period of hiatus where they just didn't do fucking anything. and and the game just slowly died even even though the community tried to hold on for so long. Like we tried so hard to keep the game alive and it they just dropped the ball and I like I I only f

Only in cases like especially big IPs, I think only in cases of like gross negligence to these games fucking crash and burn.

CaptainCoach (02:22:35.863)
Well, it it it's subjective too, right? And y games tend to die, you know, in in like a in the sense of of some person's point of view and another person's point of view, they may be l enjoying the game even more, right? So I I

Coach Mills (02:22:50.851)
That's fair. That's people people like to say game is dead when it's just like this character I don't like is released Game is dead or or or or you know. It's a game is dead, yes.

CaptainCoach (02:22:59.073)
Yeah, I'm I'm just saying chess needs a balance patch or that game's gonna die, bro. Hey, like professional sports. Like, dude, I I've like the officiating in soccer would like you if you change the way penalties are are enforced, it'd probably become a lot more popular in the US, but around the world probably would be less popular. So like a real life parallel right there. Like like the rules of soccer are just like the rules of a game. Like like w you're able to swap heroes. That's like a rule set that you're that

Coach Mills (02:23:24.931)
Yep. Yeah, people people debate all the time in the NBA about adding a four point shot. A four like an even farther away four point shot. People are like people would be like, you're gonna people are gonna be running their ass off to contest a four pointer. Like like like people would be so tired. anyways it's like

CaptainCoach (02:23:30.496)
my god. Circus League.

CaptainCoach (02:23:38.827)
Yeah. They I feel like they need to nerf three pointers, if I'm being honest.

Coach Mills (02:23:43.949)
That's another that's another that's another take I've seen is nerf three pointers.

CaptainCoach (02:23:47.713)
They should nerf threes. I don't know how you would do that. Maybe make the

Like I don't know, maybe the shot if you ever take a three, the shot clock is just like it just goes down to zero or something. Or or like for the next attempt. I don't know.

Coach Mills (02:23:58.18)
well I've seen I've seen people like you're not allowed to get you're not allowed to get offensive rebounds. I've heard that one, like people change the rules so you can't get offensive rebounds. Like there's a lot of I mean I I I I I like the rule set of basketball, but it's it's interesting 'cause people some people will have one one rule or another, this or that. People everyone has their own opinions about like

I I think I you actually do see that a lot though. There's a lot of people that used to watch basketball that don't anymore, that they're like, I miss the old the way it used to be or I miss the X Y and Z. I I

CaptainCoach (02:24:28.255)
I do. I'm one of those people. I hate how basketball's officiated more than I I I I so I I actually am a fan of soccer, but the officiating for me personally is what takes me out of it. And it's but it's a problem I have with the NFL too. But I think the NFL they actually care enough to where they even though there's a lot of controversy, it's it's it's I guess you'd say like more balanced if you want to talk about it like a like a gaming term. Like NFL has a lot of rules and it's very it's like very complex, but at the end of the day

Coach Mills (02:24:39.406)
In soccer.

Coach Mills (02:24:49.28)
Mm.

CaptainCoach (02:24:55.361)
They're they're using replay every time and there's like there's gonna be subjectivity and rules change too. It it and it's it's like you y even with like professional sports, like b baseball adding the the replay recently.

Coach Mills (02:25:03.049)
Yeah. Well did you did you know that yeah, that's that's what I've literally about to ask about where you could finally challenge. You could finally challenge in baseball. 'cause that always pissed me off. I was like 'cause I I'm not crazy into baseball, but I am somewhat into it and I was like, You're telling me this fucking umpire can just decide things on a whim and no one can t like call him out on it? Like he could just be wrong. Like just straight up wrong and no one could say shit about it. It was up to his discretion.

CaptainCoach (02:25:26.379)
Yeah. And can you believe there are old heads that say that that is a part of the game that should be left in? With that to me is just when you we want to talk about subjectivity and objectivity, that to me the the the closer we can get to truth I think is always going to be a benefit. The only thing that subjective rule sets are advantage to are corrupt refs and gamblers. Okay. They that that's it. Or bad teams. That's the other one.

Coach Mills (02:25:51.331)
Yeah, yeah. Well, there's also like there's also like the view the vis or the viewability argument of it. So there there's a couple things in the NBA. So the one is like you only get two challenges. Even if you're right twice, you don't get a third. Which is kind of fucked up. You're like, the ref got it wrong twice, I challenged. But the problem is Is they they're trying to not create unwatchable games where it is challenge, challenge.

Challenge, challenge, challenge. So in the it' it it in the pursuit it I mean it kinda it kinda is because you're right. But then the other pro problem is like a lot of people hate watching basketball in the regular season because it's super soft. It's not physical. Playoff basketball is great, very physical. They allow you to be really physical. They don't allow you to do that shit at all in the regular season. But and you might be like, that's bullshit, but they don't want people to get injured.

CaptainCoach (02:26:18.891)
Yeah. Well that's that's EOM, dude. It's EOM.

CaptainCoach (02:26:39.553)
Just 'cause what the season's too grueling, too intense, it's like

Coach Mills (02:26:43.897)
They don't w they don't want teams to just be half in the hospital by the time they're in the playoffs. So they're almost sacrificing the quality of the product in the main re regular season for great quality of a product in the playoffs. And, you know, but I can understand why people are like, fuck the regular season. but like you kind of have to pick your poison. Like, what are you gonna do? Are you gonna are you gonna f let everyone just fucking tackle each other in the regular season and then everyone has Achilles?

tears and shit by the time they get to the playoffs and then the playoffs suck 'cause you're like all the star players are all in the hospital. Like it it it there's it's interesting how like these rules evolve, but it also is interesting how there's like some rules they're fair, but they also have to think about it like a bigger picture. It's like, what's the bigger picture look like? You know, the

CaptainCoach (02:27:31.49)
Yeah, I I mean, I think adding that context to these types of things does kind of help put it in perspective a lot of the time. You know, 'cause it the people are different. You know, I talk about Americans. I th you know, you wanna y super psychoanalyze it, like we're, you know, founded on freedom, capitalism or things that this country values so like fairness in sport is something and and something that I think is maybe not maybe not fairness, 'cause I I don't wanna like throw like

people like Europeans or whoever under the bus, but like the the just to bring it up like the officiating soccer Americans really dislike like because it's encouraging encourages that type of like faking flopping and it's good it's viewed as like sissy. It's viewed like kind of sissy and it's like like the the the winning should be not about who fakes their penalties the best 'cause that is that's part of the soccer meta, you know, is is faking. And it is it was in the NBA and then they cracked down on it. Yeah, it's back.

Coach Mills (02:28:01.369)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:28:11.821)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (02:28:22.019)
Yeah, yeah. I mean i i it it's it no and then it's back. Shout out shout out SGA, shout out Lemon, shout out people that I know. okay C. Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's bad it's it's it's not better. It's I mean th there's there's a level of gamesmanship that happens that is like you're kinda fucking with the rules. You're playing on the edges of the rules.

CaptainCoach (02:28:29.217)
Bro, some of the clips I've seen

Coach Mills (02:28:51.523)
You know. not at not as inten I mean, it's the same way with soccer. The p the problem I I say soccer. If i the problem is if you cut that shit out, then there'll probably be some amount of people that probably are getting fucked up that probably deserve a certain call and they're not giving it, you know.

CaptainCoach (02:28:52.653)
I mean

CaptainCoach (02:29:10.007)
Do you think the did you watch the US Bosnia Herzovania game? Would what do you think about that? 'Cause I I have I've I have an interesting thought on that.

Coach Mills (02:29:14.173)
the fucking red card? Yeah, the r the red card bullshit.

Coach Mills (02:29:22.351)
I mean i it's it's America, bro. Fuck you. Now it's k no I don't n I I I don't watch soccer enough. I and I call it soccer, so I obviously don't watch it enough till I give a shit about anything besides just everyone just spamming if if we win the World Cup, it's called soccer now, motherfuckers like of course, you know, like I mean I I I buy and collect cards so I know a lot of the players' names and stuff like that. But like

CaptainCoach (02:29:28.062)
Ha ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (02:29:35.287)
Yeah, sorry.

CaptainCoach (02:29:42.665)
Yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (02:29:52.821)
It's Yeah, how do I put it? It yeah, i i it it felt like they retroactively gave it to him w in a way that they shouldn't. That's what I heard. Like they they looked at the replay when they weren't supposed to be able to look at the replay or something like that. They had to call it on the field. I I don't know the i the full circumstance.

CaptainCoach (02:30:11.255)
So yeah, like for me, I'm one of the few people who I actually thought the red card was the right call, but I still think it's bullshit. I still think the penalty is way too much. Like taking him out of the game is fine, but being out for the next game, that's that's farcical. I mean, and I I get the idea to deter players, but

Coach Mills (02:30:21.027)
Mm. Mm.

Coach Mills (02:30:31.681)
It I mean that's like in in basketball, you get a tech a tech two. you're out, you're eliminated, you're you're removed from the game. And then if you build up a certain amount of suspensions, you can get a eliminated from a game, but it's a lot. It's a lot of techs. You need 16 techs. And then someone can replace you in in basketball. They just get get to replace you. In soccer, no one gets to replace you, so you play down a man throughout the game, and they can't play the next game.

CaptainCoach (02:30:59.657)
Yeah. So the Yeah. Right. There's not enough nuance and con like the context is yeah, he was actually trying to push him off the ball, but he clearly it wasn't it intentional that he cleated his ankle. Like he obviously didn't go into that play thinking, I'm trying to cleat this guy, but he was trying to push him off the ball. It was an unsafe play he went for. You should get penalized for that, but you shouldn't be taking out the next game. This isn't you're you're not like stomping on a guy's foot because he like fucking pushed you in the play before. Like that type of stuff has no s yeah.

Coach Mills (02:31:00.387)
That's insane. That's an insane that's the severity of that is fucking nuts.

Coach Mills (02:31:14.339)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:31:27.087)
Well that's that's they there it to me, I don't know if this is true, but to me looking at it, intent doesn't matter in soccer. But it does matter in basketball. Intent they actually review things and they say if there was intent, you like like if you if you whipped your arm back and hit someone in the face, you're probably gonna get a tech one. You're not gonna get kicked out of the game if you didn't know that they were there. You just moved

CaptainCoach (02:31:29.143)
You should get penalized. But

Coach Mills (02:31:54.574)
Like unless you unless you like just threw back at like if you if you're just moving and you hit someone in the in a face where you shouldn't if you look at them like fucking Wemby did and you look at them straight up and you're like, are they there? Okay, now I'm fucking hitting them in the face. Yeah, you're out. You're like intent because the the intent. It's there's like clear intent.

CaptainCoach (02:32:07.617)
Yeah. Well

CaptainCoach (02:32:12.193)
Also, yeah, that's kind of what I was gonna say with the arms. It's like you have more control over your body with your arms. It's it's a lot more obvious when someone's being purposeful with their you know, it's like you could easily just kinda play in and like nudge people or you could fucking elbow someone. All right. So there's definitely layers to it. I love talking about sports. I could talk about sports forever. They take the the rules, the officiating. I I I'm a pretty big sports guy and I don't really have an outlet to really yeah.

Coach Mills (02:32:16.833)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:32:37.355)
to talk we can we can definitely talk about sport. My problem is like football, don't really know it that much. I all I know, I like I like I only hey am I am I a Ravens fan? If it if it's up if it's up to my butt my buddy is always trying to get me talk about the Dallas fucking Cowboys to me. Like he's just like perma. He's perma talking about the Dallas Cowboys to me.

CaptainCoach (02:32:43.637)
I'll get you into football this season. You're a Ravens fan now. Congrats. Baltimore. You're you're we're all about Lamar.

CaptainCoach (02:32:56.525)
my God. One of those people. I feel so bad for people like that, man. He's don't don't fall for his trap, man. He's

Coach Mills (02:33:04.515)
He love he l he he loves he loves himself some Dak Prescott. and Yeah, I like yeah the only sport that I really fucking watch is basketball. That's like the I I watch like ev almost every game in the regular season for the teams that I enjoy, and then I watch every single playoff game. Like that's what I really like. But I'm I'm starting to watch more because once you get really into sports, I'm kind of noticing that like it's like

CaptainCoach (02:33:09.355)
Yeah, he does. Poor guy.

Coach Mills (02:33:31.703)
It's kinda boring when there's nothing to watch. Like I wanna I wanna watch like at least if you like all the sports, you get to watch something every time, like all like throughout the year, you know. There's always something on. There's always something relevant to watch, something cool to watch, something something to tune into. but yeah, and who wait, who's your goat of of of of the sports? Like all the sports. Like who's your Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like f like your goat, I'm curious 'cause I I have I have my opinion on goats on all every sport.

CaptainCoach (02:33:34.124)
Mm-hmm.

CaptainCoach (02:33:51.687)
All the sports ooh.

CaptainCoach (02:33:57.793)
Coach Mills (02:34:01.561)
Like like

CaptainCoach (02:34:01.933)
Jordan Jordan single handedly got me into basketball, like watching it, playing it, just by himself. He was electric in a way that kind of redefined the sport. So he even though I Yeah, no, I I well that's the thing. I am too. I am too. But for me, Jordan changed the sport. And to me, that's what a goat needs to do. He he was actually just like more athletic than people, too. I think a lot of people undersell that part about him. Like he was like a

Coach Mills (02:34:07.694)
Yeah he's

Coach Mills (02:34:12.111)
Yeah, he's a he's he's a pretty good second best player of all time. No, but I I I I'm I'm a LeBron guy. I'm of course I'm a LeBron guy, but

He he did define

Coach Mills (02:34:28.388)
Yeah, no

CaptainCoach (02:34:30.571)
freak athlete. He w he was quicker. He he had like that drive

Coach Mills (02:34:32.621)
I wish I would have been able to watch him in person. I think i i it would have been sick. I mean I I I s I mean, I respect him as like he's not my go, but I think he's the second best player ever by a like them they are I think undoubtedly they're the top two by a mile. I don't really know anyone that doesn't debate them being top two. If someone does, I haven't really met that person.

CaptainCoach (02:34:50.815)
I if if we're talking like all sports, I mean Shohei Otani right now is is certainly making a case for all sports. He what he is doing is I mean, the only you like Babe Ruth was the last person you compare like someone like it's

Coach Mills (02:35:01.913)
The goat. He's the goat.

Yeah, and and he and and and Babe Ruth did not do he did not play against the level of competition of Shohei. He did not do he did but he did pitching and batting, but nah, yeah, yeah. He's a plumber. No, Ota Otani's fucking insane. And here's the rare thing. so like people are now starting to like simmer down on you know, LeBron's probably gonna retire in a couple years. People are kinda start to l probably really get into the debate. Jordan versus LeBron.

CaptainCoach (02:35:15.243)
He was a a drunk guy, a fat No he's a fat guy from Baltimore.

Coach Mills (02:35:33.325)
People are already crowning Otani as the greatest of all time right now, and that motherfucker's gonna keep playing for years. Like imagine being the being crowned the GOAT and you're still gonna play your sport for many, many years.

CaptainCoach (02:35:45.356)
Well

Sometimes you can lose the goat status if you played too long. case in point Tiger Woods. He he he was had all the writings of a goat and then that happened and yeah, it just goes to show you how much personal life and routine he was doing all right. I mean, that that that just shattered his like he was not good after that. It was crazy. Like how much that you know, fallout.

Coach Mills (02:35:50.913)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:35:59.246)
Hey, he's still he's still he you know, he's he's a he's

Coach Mills (02:36:10.243)
Yeah, I mean th there's always the debate about like the peak of a player versus like the longevity. Like I think Leb LeBron probably I like him 'cause it's this longevity debate, like like long excellence or like you know, long like he was excellent for a very, very long period of time. What about for for for soccer? Who's your goat? I know everyone just like always a bit Okay, thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough.

CaptainCoach (02:36:31.479)
it's it's messy, dude. It's gotta be at this point. And then for for football, man, like everybody has Tom Brady. I I I think Tom Brady are might be the most overrated player of all time in any sport. I think

Coach Mills (02:36:43.881)
Ooh, Tom see Tom Brady's my like I just Tom Brady's my go, but I haven't really heard a strong argument for anyone else. So I I like I haven't really watched all that much. He just seems like the most dominant player ever.

CaptainCoach (02:36:51.124)
I mean

CaptainCoach (02:36:55.967)
I mean, from a statistical perspective, no, not really. He just had better defenses and he he he did have a certain level of clutch to him in in some scenarios, but a lot of like you could attribute a lot of his Super Bowls to very specific plays that basically were just like total bullshit calls, like the tuck rule. There was a an interception I I I think was versus the Giants and then like

Coach Mills (02:37:00.661)
Just had a better team, better, better built team.

CaptainCoach (02:37:21.409)
the he he was y there's controversy surrounding him with spying on teams th w while he was playing for the Patriots, with deflating balls. He even admitted to cheating.

Coach Mills (02:37:29.763)
Yeah, spying on teams, bro, he's stream sniping. You gotta do it to be the best, I guess, according to trust me.

CaptainCoach (02:37:32.607)
Yeah.

Tom Gra Brady's great, but I I

Coach Mills (02:37:42.009)
Who's who's your like who's your goat if you had one? I don't know if you actually Yeah. I know people talk a lot about Mahomes, how he's very, very good.

CaptainCoach (02:37:45.997)
For football?

CaptainCoach (02:37:52.365)
I don't even know if I'd give it to a quarterback. Like I think

Dude, it's tough. Like Peyt Peyton Manning was honestly, he's up there. Like I I think Peyton Manning is is underrated, honestly. He he didn't have any like real talent for most of his career and was just like consistently just elite. and had way worse defenses than Brady. But like he d didn't win as much.

Coach Mills (02:38:15.553)
It's it's interesting because of how like from the outset looking in, it's interesting how football is like a very, very big team sport. Like you're you're one cog in a machine. Even like as an example, if we think of MJ and LeBron, both of them played a phenomenal offense and phenomenal defense and did both. They did both at both ends very high level, and they would often be the best offensive player on their team and the best defender on their team. You don't see that in football.

Like Tom Brady Tom Brady is not also stopping like he's not Tom Brady is not also getting sacks. You know what I'm saying? Like the

CaptainCoach (02:38:49.525)
All all the best quarterbacks now though, there there has been a push to just them being more athletic, just because it's it's like if you can find someone that is able to have the game IQ and the throwing ability and also have this athleticism, you're going to so all now all the best athletes, or at least a lot of them like really big guys too, 'cause you want tall people to see over the l defense a lot of the time, are just the best athletes on the field now too. So like Lamar Jackson. Lamar Jackson is pot could potentially end his career being

the goat of football, but he'd have to at least win a Super Bowl or two, I think. 'cause he he's just the I mean, he has the highest highest passer rating of all time. And he's known as a running quarterback. Well the reason is 'cause that the run game opens up those passes and passes and allows him to be really, really efficient.

Coach Mills (02:39:34.095)
So he's super athletic so he can do these runs efficiently and then it opens up passes. Okay. So he creates space with his athleticism. W. That's fucking good. No, I I love how this like concepts in hero shooters that I mean i it's the same concept. Creating space is actually like it's actually a military concept first. Like first and foremost. Like it's always been a concept, but you know, people think about it only in gaming.

CaptainCoach (02:39:37.941)
Yeah. That's a he's and he's Ravens. He's my team.

Create space. Yes, yes.

CaptainCoach (02:39:57.378)
It's yeah, yeah. Playing playing rivals in a lot of ways has not tried to sound too negative, made me realize how shit people were in League of Legends at team fighting in a lot of ways. Like Rivals is pure team fighting. League of Legends is only like the last part of the game. And things like body blocking is something that I have, you know, I play League casually. I play a lot of games casually right now, which is you a good sign. Usually I'm only playing like one or two games. There's like a lot of games I've

Coach Mills (02:40:09.391)
Ha ha ha.

Right.

CaptainCoach (02:40:25.751)
been kind of enjoying right now. But I've I've been like trying to body block more in league and it's been like really just kind of maintaining a front line. Y you know you notice people in other games don't always have these these concepts hammered down. And it it's cool that you know you when you see stuff translate over to other games or like even real life sports. So yeah. Always interesting.

Coach Mills (02:40:45.903)
No, I I I I I like it a lot. I like I mean it's it's all connected. Like these fundamentals are they're they're connected in in all of these sports as well as games. Like but yeah, let's do some bingo. Let's do let's let's end it off with some bingo. let me go ahead and share the screen. And we we a hundred percent just stole this straight from light. Thank you, Light. You're the goat.

CaptainCoach (02:40:58.337)
Bingo time.

CaptainCoach (02:41:08.631)
But we're gonna put we're gonna put one of the things on our bingo card that l Light has to get his bingo as one of so that way you go look at his first.

Coach Mills (02:41:12.746)
Right here.

Light Bingo. Yeah Yo, you gotta you gotta watch his first. You could see you, right? You could see everything. Is it popping up? Yeah, so it's so if Light gets his bingo, then we cut we we put this bingo. Like this is the spot. okay. So this is bingo for nine point Nine point is coming soon. Patch coming soon. new character coming soon. okay. You y first

CaptainCoach (02:41:25.176)
yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (02:41:44.78)
if you have any random ones you wanna put, you can throw out. I'll throw out any ideas I have.

CaptainCoach (02:41:48.693)
H how likely do you think it is that they just randomly add double bands? Is that too much of a ask? Is that too hard to All right. No double bands. Yeah, maybe put it on the edge. corner piece for that one? That's that's a risky strategy.

Coach Mills (02:41:54.273)
Ooh, I like it. Let's do it. Double bands. Double like no double bands, right? No double.

Yeah, yeah, no double bands. So you you you think this is unlikely. You wanna put it somewhere else? Wait, wait. If we hit bingo, what's the what's the thing? We gotta f we gotta figure out what we do if we hit bingo.

CaptainCoach (02:42:06.615)
'Cause that'd be a good thing. Right.

No, I'm saying

CaptainCoach (02:42:17.257)
Well, what I'm saying is like lights are usually things that are like laugh laughably bad about the game. Maybe we could do some things that are more of a positive spin. So we

Coach Mills (02:42:20.534)
Ha ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (02:42:24.385)
Okay, I like that. I like that. And if we hit bingo, do we donate money somewhere? What do we do? Do do we

CaptainCoach (02:42:32.083)
if we hit bingo, hm.

Coach Mills (02:42:35.565)
can we can we can we like donate to like a domestic violence charity? You think? What do you th what thoughts on that? I'll I'll drop a hundred dollars on a domestic viol vi I I could I could I could I you know the the channel could pay it. the you know? I'll pull for my my my the you know

CaptainCoach (02:42:45.973)
But I ain't I I got kids to feed Coach Mills.

CaptainCoach (02:42:55.789)
Yeah, I'm I'm down. If you wanna yeah, you wanna do a we'll do a charity. Charity Gaming for Hope. That just sounds like a charity.

Coach Mills (02:42:59.629)
Charity. Charity of the top comments choice. Game what? Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Wait, you know, do you know about gaming for hope? Do you know about I wanna see gaming for hope hits that would be funny. Gaming for hope. Yeah, it won't work. I was gonna say gaming for hope hits like Grandmaster or something. It'd be hilarious. but okay, anyways. top top comment, top comment.

CaptainCoach (02:43:16.395)
Wait, how's that a patch?

Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:43:24.756)
How about

Coach Mills (02:43:28.963)
We're gonna use revenue from this video. maybe not all of it, but w I'll I'll use mine to to to bring in the rest. Okay, yeah, okay, fine. We'll use revenue from this video. a hundred dollars to the charity of your choice if we hit the bingo. and I'll still give something to charity even if we don't hit it. But let's try to fucking hit it. You know what I'm saying? Okay, so no double bands. That's in corner. So so we'll yeah, we'll p we'll we'll we'll yeah, we'll put some good ones too. Good and bad. It doesn't have just be like this this hate rage one.

CaptainCoach (02:43:35.723)
No, I I want to. I'll go in. Yeah, yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:43:48.577)
You know, s so that's like a good one. Hope we hope for these.

Coach Mills (02:43:58.404)
We will review this at the beginning of the next episode. with our with with whoever other two guests we have. new support, new new hero broken. Do we wanna do that?

CaptainCoach (02:44:03.18)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:44:13.133)
Coach Mills (02:44:14.017)
Or is that too is that like

CaptainCoach (02:44:16.757)
Yeah, that's I one's tough to know r right like when it happens though, you know?

Coach Mills (02:44:18.849)
Right away? Right, right, right.

CaptainCoach (02:44:23.681)
What about changes to rocket? I think that's like a big one right now, right? Rocket rocket buffs would be don't think that's happened. I maybe rocket nerfs. How about rocket nerfs? Yeah. So is that we're like the inverse of the the light one. We're looking for what's like our wish list. Okay.

Coach Mills (02:44:26.916)
Okay. R wait No, no, no. Just like Rocket Nerves. Nur Rocket Nerves. Yeah, we got that. Rocket Nerves. I'm I'm putting I'm putting I'm putting I'm putting Thorbuff right here. I'm putting Thorbuff right there. Tana maybe tenacity changes? I don't know. they did they did already kind of change tenacity like behind the scenes.

CaptainCoach (02:44:54.837)
Okay, so this is then our kind of our wish list then. Which I kinda like. This i th i that's what we want to do. We so far this is your all things that we wanna see.

Coach Mills (02:45:00.237)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be like this negative thing like light is, but but hi if his hits then it hits ours.

CaptainCoach (02:45:08.145)
Alright, alright. Speaking of light, Daredevil more daredevil nurse, bruh. Yeah, put it put it on, put it on. Get getting the hero getting the heroes out of the way.

Coach Mills (02:45:11.481)
Daredevil nerfs shit. All right. D D nerfs. we we have to randomize this but we will randomize this after it's done by the way. Yeah, yeah, so it's all gonna get

CaptainCoach (02:45:22.131)
Okay, sure, sure. we don't have to do all heroes. What are some other things?

Coach Mills (02:45:28.143)
like like broken team up, useless team up.

CaptainCoach (02:45:29.557)
You might see season.

CaptainCoach (02:45:36.951)
Hmm. This is tough. You know, we probably should have thought about this a bit more.

Coach Mills (02:45:39.299)
I w maybe like an ultimate buff. Like like ultimate charge buff. They're gonna do a lot of bullshit like that. Like like

CaptainCoach (02:45:45.101)
Yeah, 'cause we really have no idea like what's on okay, well we've got we gotta have a Cyclops one. So what do we think?

Coach Mills (02:45:50.412)
Cyc Cyclops nerf, right? Cyclops? Clops nerf?

Right, they're just gonna just straight up nerf him. You think so? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's let's see. Like hopefully they do that. Like yeah, this is basically our wish list. What we want and what they do is gonna be very interesting.

CaptainCoach (02:45:58.357)
You think you I think you should be nerfed a little bit.

CaptainCoach (02:46:07.833)
Yeah, yeah. 'Cause it it'd be funny i if lights, you know, him doing all his troll ones get gets marked out and ours doesn't. That's a bad sign. So it's like competing dueling pianos or something.

Coach Mills (02:46:11.639)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:46:15.105)
Yeah, this is things that we want these are things that we kind of want, you know. This is things that we think is probably good for the game. how about like Mantis nerf? What do you think? Like Mantis or Mantis slash Ultron?

CaptainCoach (02:46:33.365)
Yeah. I mean Mantis I d they've been they've been there for a while. She's been she's been doing well for a while.

Coach Mills (02:46:36.202)
just we could just keep it Mantis.

Yeah. Mantis nerf. Rocket Nerfs, Mantis Nerfs, Cyclops nerf, D D D nerf. we got Thorbuff in there. Any other no like specific specific

CaptainCoach (02:46:56.119)
yeah, I guess we could say like the types of changes if we wanna make it a little more like Thor Altbuff or something or let me see here.

Coach Mills (02:46:58.763)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We c we could make it specific too.

yeah, we could do that. Squirrel girl buff girl girl change.

CaptainCoach (02:47:11.095)
Blade plus one damage. That would be pretty funny actually. Does he need more though? He's kinda good right now. Maybe blade minus one damage. That's kind of funny.

Coach Mills (02:47:12.687)
You think blade, yeah.

Minus one day It's is and this would be like anything that technically anything that's like a slap on the wrist nerf. Like doesn't matter. Like it's an optic it's an optics nerf basically. It's an optics nerf. my god, they're gonna this would be a bad one. I was gonna say white fox buff. They're gonna do that shit. They're definitely gonna do that shit.

CaptainCoach (02:47:35.989)
Mm.

CaptainCoach (02:47:43.262)
my god. How about White Fox primary buff? Like super specific.

Coach Mills (02:47:47.787)
Okay. Okay. I really hope they don't.

CaptainCoach (02:47:50.742)
I feel like that's something they would do, like her neutral healing. Or So now we're wait, we're now we're now this is not definitely not on my wish list. We gotta we gotta

Coach Mills (02:48:00.272)
Okay, maybe not a wish list. It's just it's a random rivals list. It's a it's it's it's stuff. It's just yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:48:05.151)
Yeah, whatever. Fuck it. This is fun. Cool with that. Mm-hmm. Let's see here.

Coach Mills (02:48:12.729)
Hulk team up.

CaptainCoach (02:48:16.737)
I like that.

Coach Mills (02:48:18.351)
It's been a while. Like a new pole, a new Hulk team up. Namor team up. This is a completely different one, but like a new Namor team up. They're definitely gonna do that shit, right? New

Any other ones like Luna Okay

CaptainCoach (02:48:36.651)
L Luna Altbuff.

CaptainCoach (02:48:44.801)
They're going to Elsa, they're gonna give her five damage, plus five damage Elsa.

Coach Mills (02:48:49.5)
Okay, okay.

CaptainCoach (02:48:53.195)
The ones that are I I could see them doing

Coach Mills (02:48:55.634)
my god.

CaptainCoach (02:48:58.101)
Haw Ha Hawkeye's definitely getting something here.

Coach Mills (02:48:59.817)
my god, Hawkeye buff. I think new map pool.

CaptainCoach (02:49:07.042)
how about immediate moon n Moon night reverts, like reverting the changes?

Coach Mills (02:49:11.965)
my god. That's that's awful, but yeah. It's Moon Knight, right yeah. Noon Knight revert. Okay. I like that, I like that, I like that.

CaptainCoach (02:49:22.125)
Hmm.

Coach Mills (02:49:26.137)
Trying to think of like what they're gonna do to OCAP.

I think they do like a cap cap ult change. Ot nerf. Yeah, probably. That's probably reasonable. Do you think he will? Iron Man? rework? Rework? Maybe. Right? It would be nuts.

CaptainCoach (02:49:37.069)
Yeah, I could see that happening. Iron Man's gotta get something here, right?

CaptainCoach (02:49:44.962)
Got him.

CaptainCoach (02:49:49.171)
A rework. That'd be crazy. That would be crazy. All right, what's the what's some really crazy ones now that we could think of? Like completely out of left field.

Coach Mills (02:50:00.921)
Man. Man, this would be such a good one for like when people are alive. You know, like they can like throw in their their ideas. I'm trying to think of

CaptainCoach (02:50:09.675)
Yeah. Maybe maybe for next time. 'Cause we could we could pick out the funniest ones.

Coach Mills (02:50:12.117)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. team not team like a bl new name or team up, new buffs, new nerfs.

CaptainCoach (02:50:22.007)
How about how about they're gonna do another triple healer team up?

Coach Mills (02:50:26.539)
Okay. Trueful wheeler team up. Yeah, probably. Yeah, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

CaptainCoach (02:50:33.686)
y another useless storm team up.

Coach Mills (02:50:36.779)
Okay, and I like that. We could also like do one like no changes, like there's gonna be no changes to a certain character. Like probably a character that needs it, but there's gonna be no changes.

CaptainCoach (02:50:48.003)
yeah, yeah, yeah. No, yeah, we I like that. How about

Coach Mills (02:50:54.177)
no changes penny, no changes penny, probably. Yeah, yep, yep, yep. shit. What else?

CaptainCoach (02:50:54.188)
Penny.

CaptainCoach (02:51:05.153)
Fantastic useless buff.

Coach Mills (02:51:08.847)
Probably. Probably. Probably. shit.

CaptainCoach (02:51:16.181)
What's something maybe like outside the game now? Like like

Coach Mills (02:51:17.871)
be beep okay. I was gonna say Black Panther. I like a black yeah, we c we can decide after that would be sick. one of that's outside the game. Ooh, like ranked changes, maybe? Of any kind?

CaptainCoach (02:51:21.335)
We can we could take one off or something, like one of the buff rework, that'd be sick. Yeah, yeah, BP re

CaptainCoach (02:51:33.846)
Yeah, how about

CaptainCoach (02:51:38.913)
Yeah, like what would hmm

I mean, yeah, it's pretty generic, but I think generic ones are good. Yeah, like like just just changes to the rank system. Like maybe rank system changes. Something on the list.

Coach Mills (02:51:44.707)
Yeah.

Okay, yeah, yep.

Coach Mills (02:51:54.222)
Yeah, bla we could we can re replace some one of these like minus one damage if you have anything. The Elsa and the Blade one if there's anything that you can think of. If you wanted to add something more.

CaptainCoach (02:52:05.389)
These are some decent ones though. I actually kinda like this. I actually kinda like this list. I'm just trying to think what else have have been hot topics on the pod. Triple healer nerf, maybe could be one. Wait, we did we triple healer team up. yeah. Yeah, why not for Mantis just do triple healer nerf? So make it more generic. Make it make it a little more generic. There we go. So it's not all just like.

Coach Mills (02:52:17.443)
We kinda did mantis. We did and then like a new yeah, he knew

Triple either nerf, yeah.

Coach Mills (02:52:32.193)
This will be good. This will be good and we can evaluate this. We can evaluate this as we go through the next patch notes on the next pod. We'll look at this. We'll we'll skip to the end of lights and then we'll look at ours and see. but but first let's is this good? Are we locking this in?

CaptainCoach (02:52:32.461)
Two triple heel ones.

CaptainCoach (02:52:48.981)
Yeah, I mean we got a mix of things we wanna see and don't wanna see, but I you know, it's I like it, you know. 'Cause then we could see kinda like what changes get through. Excited.

Coach Mills (02:52:57.023)
Yep. Alright. We have I have to generate. Yeah, generate. There it is. There it is.

CaptainCoach (02:53:04.853)
All right, let's see where the where's the light okay, light bingo over on the side there.

Coach Mills (02:53:07.961)
So if if if we get dit diddy nerfs, a new Namor team up, a BP rework, and a Thor buff, that's a line. no changes to Penny, a White Fox primary buff, a free team up, a new Hulk team up, and a triple healer team up, that's a line. Moon Knight Revert, Light Bingo, no changes, Cyclops nerf, rank system changes. Moon Knight, Hawkeye, Diddy, Elsa, no double bands.

CaptainCoach (02:53:16.909)
Okay.

CaptainCoach (02:53:25.623)
Ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (02:53:36.121)
There are some likely ones. Rank system changes, use the storm buff, Thor above, rocket nerf, iron man rework. There are some there are some possible ones in here. That is interesting. Yeah, we're gonna this is yeah, this is good. All right, chat. If we hit bingo, yeah, $100 to the charity of your choice at the top, of course. Please please like and subscribe. Support the channel. Help us grow to ten thousand subscribers so we can keep pumping out more content. And yeah, I think I I think I'm gonna

CaptainCoach (02:53:37.782)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:54:04.557)
stop sharing, but I think that that's pretty much everything that we have to talk about today. I'm I'm pretty I'm pretty hyped. I'm pretty hyped about nine point I hope it's good. I hope it's good. I hope there's some good changes.

CaptainCoach (02:54:07.81)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:54:13.399)
Yeah. You just gotta keep building, just keep having good patches in a row. So this has been the good patch, bad patch, good patch, bad patch.

Coach Mills (02:54:18.829)
Yep. That's that's a good point. Yeah. They're they're kind of on good p if they can get another good one, that would be really nice. Going run a runner. I think that'd be really good. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming by. Hope you enjoyed the pod. Make sure to check out Captain Coach, Coach Mills and any other one of our guests that have come on the pod. thank y'all and we'll see you next time. Peace.

CaptainCoach (02:54:42.51)
Peace.