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Meet Biliana Sirakova, the newly appointed EU Youth Coordinator.
Welcome to UNDER 30, the podcast series by the EU-Council of Europe youth partnership that brings research results, explores trends in young people's lives and themes relevant for youth policy and practice.
The EU-CoE youth partnership is a co-operation programme between the European Commission and the Council of Europe in the field of youth, created in 1998, connecting youth research, policy and practice.
Under 30 - EU Youth Coordinator
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[00:00:00] Biliana: If we want to be clear in our communication, we might even try to, to, to communicate, in this youth friendly language, across the board on all topics.
[00:00:20] Ismael: Hello everyone. And welcome to Under 30 a podcast brought to you by the partnership between the European commission and the council of Europe in the field of youth. I'm Ismael Paez Civico and together with Clotilde Talleu , we'll be hosting this episode. We hope you enjoy.
[00:00:41] Clotilde: So today with our guests we'll talk about, um, the position and role of EU youth coordinator. The, um, establishment of this post is quite new in European youth policies. And you will learn a bit more today about its missions, concrete actions, [00:01:00] plans, expected impact on policy practice, and also on young people, of course, in Europe.
[00:01:05] Clotilde: So I'm pleased to welcome Biliana Sirakova, so the EU youth coordinator, since June, 2021, if I'm not mistaken, so Biliana, can you please introduce yourself?
[00:01:20] Biliana: Well, thank you very much for the invitation to be a guest on your podcast. I enjoy it very much and I'm a regular listener. So, um, my name is Biliana , I'm Bulgarian living in Belgium for 14 years now.
[00:01:35] Biliana: Uh, since 2010, I have been working in the European commission. And since June last year, um, I've been working in the role of Eu youth coordinator. My educational background is in economics and management. And I have 18 years of professional experience and across all the sectors, public private non-profit. Um, my work has [00:02:00] revolved around, um, building and managing relationships with diverse stakeholders and around communication, especially communicating for impact and learning and something personal.
[00:02:13] Biliana: I'm the mom of two little boys and, uh, in full honesty outside of work, most of my time is dedicated to them. And I love the outdoors. So when I need to recharge my batteries, I turned to nature .
[00:02:28] Ismael: Perfect. So thank you very much, Biliana for that, a short introduction. And now I think we're going to dive a bit more into what is actually your job as EU youth coordinator.
[00:02:37] Ismael: How is your everyday look like? Let's say, how does it look? Like what are your everyday challenges? Um, and how are you shaping? Let's say these newly put this new position that's just taken from last year.
[00:02:48] Biliana: So thank you for this, uh, first question before I explain what the role of the EU youth coordinator is about.
[00:02:56] Biliana: I would like to, just to, uh, start with, uh, explaining the why, [00:03:00] why was the role, uh, established? So, uh, this role was, um, is part of the EU long-term plan. Connecting engaging and empowering young people. So this is our EU youth strategy for 2019, 2027. And why the position was proposed is that I think the European commission has been
[00:03:23] Biliana: engaging and connecting with young people more and more in the past years, we have hundreds of youth participation initiatives, um, youth weeks, uh, the EU youth dialogue. Youth sounding board in external action. We have, um, young European ambassadors in EU neighborhood and other policy areas like climate and environment.
[00:03:45] Biliana: Um, and there are many examples in other EU institutions like the European youth events at the parliament, the youth climate and sustainability round tables, the European economic and social committee, the young [00:04:00] politicians programs at committee of the regions and many others. And anyone who's interested in finding out about all these initiatives is welcome to, to go to the European youth portal.
[00:04:11] Biliana: This is our one-stop shop for this information. So, um, I think there was a need to enhance cooperation on youth issues to share knowledge and learn from each other and to align all of these projects. So they compliment and not compete with each other and said that so that we are efficient and effective in reaching the youth goals that, that we have as part of it used credit.
[00:04:39] Biliana: And this is why, um, the coordinator was proposed to make links. And, uh, in terms of the, the roles of the coordinator, I'd like to explain it with an acronym, um, which is voice and the V in this voice, uh, acronym stands for. Visible point of [00:05:00] reference. So the EU youth coordinators should be visible point of reference for young people, youth organizations, and commission services.
[00:05:08] Biliana: Then the O stands for outside in approach or new tissues. So the coordinator should, um, introduce this outside in approach. Um, uh, I'm listening to the views and concerns of young people and working to ensure that they are heard in EU policymaking . The I stands for integration of the youth perspective in all relevant policies and methods.
[00:05:34] Biliana: And then C is for cooperation and coordination, which I referred to about, uh, um, uh, referred to talked about between commission services, working on youth issues. And finally, the E is for encouraging youth to take advantage of the opportunities that are available to them. So giving really visibility to, uh, commission initiatives for young people.
[00:05:59] Biliana: So this [00:06:00] is, uh, in a nutshell, what, uh, the role is, uh, is about
[00:06:05] Ismael: that sounds, I mean, from, from this perspective, from this perspective, quite a lot of work. Cause you're a bit like the main person that connects everything related to youth with everything, with the institutions. So my question is now maybe do you work with other people?
[00:06:17] Ismael: Do you have a team? Uh, do you have any colleagues or is it just a one person army you against the against the world.
[00:06:24] Biliana: Well, luckily, uh, it's not a one person army. I am based in the policy sector of the youth unit in the, in the commission, uh, directorate general EAC. And I do have a big team of, of colleagues who, uh, even if they have not their other manager and no, no desire to be that I'm very much supported by them by their expertise
[00:06:46] Biliana: Because the coordinator role is not a policy officer. And also I do not have the youth policy deep expertize, which is near that. I think it's more about the transversal kind of skills and [00:07:00] competencies about stakeholder management. And so I do get a lot of support from the colleges. The policy aspect
[00:07:07] Ismael: And in terms of policy, um, what would you say is one of the main things you started to work on? Uh, when you took that position last year, what was the main, what, when you, when you got the role of the youth coordinator, what did you say? Okay, this is the first thing I'm going to be working.
[00:07:22] Biliana: So I think the, there are a few things, but maybe youth participation in general is a part of what I'm quite involved in because, uh, I talked about this in the integration of, you know, the youth perspective in, in different policy areas and also encouraging young people to, to, to speak up, to voice their concerns and ensuring that their voices are heard in, uh, policy and decision-making.
[00:07:46] Biliana: So this is probably the area where I'm mostly involved and then. Since, of course, the start of the European year, of Youth and the preparations last year. Uh, another big aspect is kind of this, um, you know, [00:08:00] co-creation of the year with stakeholders and national coordinators. So it's about, so I do get, um, a little bit insight into the youth sector and maybe youth work.
[00:08:11] Biliana: So this has been quite, uh, quite interesting as well, you know, working with this group to prepare the year and now to really deliver the European year together.
[00:08:19] Ismael: And when it comes to the impact that you would like to have, let's say on youth policy, or what is the expected impact, um, you would like to achieve in your next years in that position?
[00:08:32] Biliana: So, yes, I, I think that, um, the position can have an impact on youth policies and the sector in young people in Europe. And, uh, even if it is very difficult to quantify and measure it, I can give a two examples. I mean, uh, since I started, uh, we have established, um, youth, uh, networking formal network in the European commission where close to 15 director general are [00:09:00] represented and we meet regularly.
[00:09:02] Biliana: And this is a forum where we exchange good practices, um, learn from each other. Uh, find out what others are doing in different areas. How are, how are they connecting with young people, how are they communicating their projects? Uh, what, uh, youth organizations they're working with. And so we share the results of projects.
[00:09:23] Biliana: This youth network is quite, can be quite instrumental also for making sure that there is this mainstreaming of youth policy. And the other example is that in preparation of the European year of youth, um, and now in the implementation of the year, we are working with, uh, European year of youth. Stakeholder and national coordinators group.
[00:09:45] Biliana: And so we have national coordinators from each EU member, state, um, and also from, uh, six, uh, non EU countries. And we have more than a hundred actually close to 150 youth organizations at European level. [00:10:00] And we, this group we, uh, worked on co-creating the year, but are also now in touch and share projects and, uh, I think this group can be very impactful and can even say in some shape and form of, for the future and can be the legacy of the year, uh, because it has potential to lead to better cooperation and better, um, connection of the EU with the youth sector and with youth organization.
[00:10:31] Biliana: Um, so these are just two examples, which are, I think are quite, concrete.
[00:10:36] Clotilde: Uh, one of your mission, as you said, is also to, to, to give youth a voice in shaping EU youth policies. And, and is it also a question building I would take, I would say trust between a young people and also the European union, the European commission.
[00:10:53] Clotilde: Is it also one of the expected outcomes of your, your role in the position?
[00:11:00] Biliana: [00:11:00] Absolutely. I think it's about trust. It's also about kind of accessibility, uh, about. Information so that, you know, if someone needs to have the voice and be able to express their ideas, I think they need a clear information about what they're expressing their ideas on.
[00:11:20] Biliana: They need help also to express their ideas. So when we talk about, um, for instance, Policies and initiatives need to be communicating in a youth friendly language. This is quite important because I will give an example. I think we have now a lot of really old kind of legislative proposals that are big. I mean, there are, uh, open public consultations.
[00:11:41] Biliana: And you can sign up and receive notifications when it's open public consultation. So young people can do that. But if you go to these, um, documents and read through them, they're even difficult for us to understand. So we are asking them to express their ideas and we can consult them. And you know, that [00:12:00] that, that they should give us feedback.
[00:12:01] Biliana: But the information that's provided is very, very difficult. So I think there is a role of this youth friendly language to make out. Initiatives and policies better understood by young people. So, um, and absolutely linked to, to trust as well, to establish like a relationship. Um, you know, and I think if young people see, for instance, when I talked about this follow-up that there is follow up on actions, then the next time we consult them, They are clearly more likely to, to participate, um, because if they're without the followup, I mean, this is a lost cause.
[00:12:35] Biliana: Yes,
[00:12:35] Clotilde: I would. I want also to, to get back on youth policy, because you, you talked about something that I think is very important regarding mainstreaming, uh, youth at the level of the European commission within the different directorates. And I wanted to ask you, how do you work to mainstream youth within the different directorates and what are your expectations
[00:12:58] Clotilde: in, uh, in this field. [00:13:00]
[00:13:00] Biliana: Well, just the first thing to say that now, I think in the current context of the European year of youth, of course, this is, there is a lot of help on this because the year is a high political priority. And so all commission services are implicated in one way or another in. And so there is already this willingness to, you know, to not only to, to consult young people, to involve them in a lot of these processes.
[00:13:25] Biliana: I mean, just as an example, um, you know, on 1st of April, uh, uh, in research and innovation, Uh, on Horizon Europe program, there was a call for, um, interest, uh, launched to young people. Master's students in any kind of discipline to participate as observers in the evaluation process of how, uh, funding you finding in these distributing of projects.
[00:13:49] Biliana: And this is really a first um, I don't think that there's something like this was ever done before. So I have to say that even without my being so actively, you know, trying [00:14:00] to mainstream and kind of includes, uh, the, the young people in all these areas, I think there is a lot of currently willingness from all the services to do that.
[00:14:08] Biliana: But, um, the other example that I gave about this youth network, where there's participation from. A different commission services also helps in that because they are colleagues can see what is the benefit of engaging young people and, uh, creating this kind of relationship with them and the youth organizations.
[00:14:28] Biliana: And I think they are likely to include more and more young people in the future in the processes. So this is how we do it. And as well, final thing. I say in this group that I mentioned about, um, the, uh, European year of youth uh, stakeholder group, a national coordinators, we ensure to invite youth organizations from across all different, uh, policy areas.
[00:14:50] Biliana: So some of them are working on environment. Others are really focusing on employment, inclusion, et cetera, et cetera. So I think we have stakeholders from really [00:15:00] across the spectrum.
[00:15:01] Ismael: I would like to come back to. To the part where you said, you're trying to make a bit of a youth friendly language and maybe this is a wrong perspective I might have, but it's a question worth asking, nonetheless, um, are you a bit afraid that making youth friendly language per se, cause you are indeed that main contact point then needs to juggle between civil society, young people and people in the institutions.
[00:15:24] Ismael: And we all know there's loads of things get lost in translation. Are you afraid that making youth friendly language it's going to water? The actual content and the important language that must be had, let's say at an institutional level and that young people won't get to know exactly what is being said, or what is your perspective, or do you think not at all, and it's actually a lot better and that's how it should be presented, um, to civil society in general, or to a young people around Europe.
[00:15:51] Biliana: Yeah. Um, no, I don't, I'm not sure. I think I wasn't clear, but the youth friendly language it's, um, Something that is used by [00:16:00] the services by the commission director general when they are now, you know, um, connecting with young people and asking their perspectives on different things. So for instance is an example on the European year of youth page, we have published over a hundred.
[00:16:15] Biliana: Policy initiatives. So this, uh, texts and, uh, have been contributed by, by the director general. So the people working in this policy, so they have done the effort to look at their, um, initiatives and the explanations and reformulate in a language that is clear and accessible and can be understood by, by young people and others as well.
[00:16:38] Biliana: And I think honestly, this helps the larger public as well. I w I would say that even as a, if we want to be clear in our communication, we might even try to, to, to communicate, uh, in this youth friendly language, across the board on all topics. So this has been, uh, the, the coming from the, from the policy side.
[00:16:56] Biliana: So I don't think by removing some [00:17:00] technical details. I don't think that the content is watered down and I think the intention is still to make our initiatives clear to young people and that they can understand them better. And then they can give ideas, recommendations, and suggestions, but they need to have a very good understanding first before doing that.
[00:17:17] Ismael:
[00:17:17] Ismael: I think you actually answered the actual question I was thinking of. I didn't maybe express it that well, it was maybe not just specifically toward young people, but towards the general population, because it is indeed. I mean, there's a lot more interesting, uh, to share, more understandable pieces of texts and see exactly what the commission is doing in that regard.
[00:17:34] Ismael: So, I mean, I'm, I'm really, I'm glad we, uh, we got to clarify that part. I want to come back to the thing regarding the youth sector. And of course you are, we didn't say at the beginning, but I remember from our last conversation that you are new to the youth sector in some sense. So you joined, uh, last year when you took the role as EU youth coordinator.
[00:17:52] Ismael: So something a bit new for you. And you've been meeting so many different people from different NGOs, youth councils, European youth forum, for example, [00:18:00] advisory council on youth and et cetera, et cetera, with so many people being involved in this very large sector in all around Europe. What is your perception of it?
[00:18:09] Ismael: How has your experience been up until now. Have people been friendly? Had they not been friendly? Have they been open? Have they been quite in an activist mode towards you? What's your feeling around all of this? New let's say, life.
[00:18:23] Biliana: Well, happy to tell you Ismael. . So you're right. My impressions of the youth sector are really as a, as a new comer.
[00:18:30] Biliana: So I, I don't, I have never worked as a youth worker, so I do want to make it clear. I'm not, you know, I don't want to sound presumptuous here. So this is just from. Observations. And like you said, I've now been lucky to actually have contexts with more than a hundred organization, youth organizations, and this is not even counting kind of the EYY group.
[00:18:49] Biliana: And so my general impression is that the people working in the sector are immensely passionate and dedicated to defending. Advancing the interests [00:19:00] of young people. So I see if you said, are they being friendly? Absolutely. And there are some very passionate people. Unfortunately, my impression is I think often the youth work is undervalued and, uh, I, I would, uh, I know many would agree under funded and I think this is the case, at least in some countries, I'm sure this is not across the board, but I remember.
[00:19:21] Biliana: last year or soon after I started, I had a conversation with a very, uh, competent and engaged young lady who in her twenties was very active in many youth organizations. And then now, um, in her thirties, she has moved on to other kind of career choices and other path. And because she said that the youth field was not.
[00:19:43] Biliana: Long-term viable career choice. And again, this is coming from maybe one member state then I'm sure that in others, this is not the case. And there are people who can have very fulfilling careers, but clearly for me, there is something that needs to be done there in terms of. Uh, [00:20:00] from the, from the, you know, authorities in terms of maybe, um, not only education for youth work, but also clear career paths and, you know, structural funding and just general recognition.
[00:20:12] Biliana: So this is work for the, probably the national authorities and institutions can also help. I know that in the partnership and council of Europe, a lot of there's a lot of work being done on that. But then another point is also about maybe. The youth sector here is that, um, the, the sector can also maybe communicate the impact better.
[00:20:31] Biliana: We talked about this communication about impact. So I think the value needs to be demonstrated. And I think. We are all convinced that the youth work is positive, you know, in very important, but maybe it helps to also provide, you know, tangible evidence on the impact of young people and the impact on society at large, you know, performance indicators just to really communicate for impact.
[00:20:56] Biliana: So I think. And buck needs to be better demonstrated and [00:21:00] communicated. And again, I'm not, not to make generalizations. They are very excellent examples here as well. And of course the last thing, uh, in this field, as in many others, there's, uh, there are common challenges, you know, phrases linked to green and digital transition and, you know, inclusion.
[00:21:18] Biliana: So my understanding from meeting different organizations is that they're also going through this reflection process. How they need to adapt and, and, uh, how, what changes need to be made to continue to serve young people in a kind of new context and a context which is very ambiguous and changing all the time.
[00:21:39] Biliana: So these are just a few things that I'm noticing again as a newbie to the field.
[00:21:44] Ismael: , I'm glad we have more people at an institutional level, actually that are speaking about youth work, uh, and its value that it does have to society. I mean, all of these things, we've been speaking about them on the podcast for quite a while now.
[00:21:54] Ismael: I mean, that, that just made me think of, uh, of the podcasts we uploaded a couple months back, [00:22:00] which was, a thinking and action kit for the future of youth work. And then of course, we're going to have one uploaded this week. When you're hearing this podcast, it will be a few weeks back, uh, regarding, uh, youth participation too.
[00:22:10] Ismael: So all of these things, of course, there are so many people working on these areas and it's very nice to see again, why this position was created is to have someone in the institutions speaking about them at that same level as the other decision makers. Uh, so I think that's a very, very, uh, important aspect of your work.
[00:22:25] Ismael: And I think everyone in the youth work is very glad than an and quite happy that they're finally, there is someone taking this position.. I know. People have been demanding it for, for quite some time now. So I think I can speak on behalf of most people in the youth, in the youth sector saying that we are very happy.
[00:22:44] Ismael: Um, I want to go now because in 2022, we, we slightly brought it up. Uh, at the beginning is the, uh, European year of youth. Can you explain a bit, what is a European year of youth? I mean, why exactly is there a European year of youth? First of all, and why is it now in [00:23:00] 2022?
[00:23:01] Biliana: Yeah. Uh, yeah, I know that, uh, you, in the passed podcast, you had also my head of unit Yanis Malekos who explained a little bit about it, but the European year of youth, I think for it simply is about putting the spotlight on young people.
[00:23:17] Biliana: And if I continue kind of this metaphor is about giving them the microphone or if you want the loudspeaker and then listening and then acting, hopefully. So this is really it in a nutshell, uh, I, I, not sure how much in detail that you want me to go in, but, uh, there are clear, uh, objectives for the year. To for instance, to improve a youth participation, to boost the efforts of also members, states and youth organizations, uh, this mainstreaming and cross sector approach, and especially including young people who, with fewer opportunities who are disadvantaged from, uh, vulnerable groups, uh, in the process and helping them.
[00:23:59] Biliana: You know, uh, [00:24:00] become active citizens. I think this active citizenship it's, especially in the current context with the war of Ukraine is very important. So the focus that we have also now is on the European values, why it is important to be active citizen participation in democratic processes, et cetera.
[00:24:19] Biliana: So I do want to say. Uh, I think that, you know, the European year of youth is a declaration of, of commitments and which is, um, it was proposed by the European commission, by president Von der Leyen. Um, but it was endorsed by all member states and no, uh, in the, in the European parliament. So putting this commitment to work and actually implementing it is, uh, everyone's job.
[00:24:42] Biliana: Um, the international organizations, governments, you know, regional authorities, uh, public private actors, even. Uh, clearly youth organizations and young people themselves. So if I can liken it to something, it's, you know how the in the UN [00:25:00] SDGs the year has certain objectives and their fulfillment relies on ownership and contribution from, from many stakeholders.
[00:25:08] Biliana: But in the year, if I have to focus on the area, which are mostly evolved, I referred to it. It's really the cooperation with, uh, other institutions, but importantly, with the EU stakeholders and the national authorities through this group of national coordinators, which was established and anyone interested.
[00:25:27] Biliana: to see who these people are and organizations is welcome to go to the European youth page and see the list of national coordinators and their role is to implement the year, uh, at national level. So in terms of a legacy of the year, we do want to see, I mean, I personally really would like to see that this cooperation with youth stakeholders and youth sector can be continued in some shape or form, uh, beyond the year.
[00:25:54] Biliana: Uh, and we already have a number of new initiatives that are launched that will have a [00:26:00] tangible impact beyond the year. For instance, Alma, the new initiative for, uh, young people who are neither in employment, education or training, and many others. And I already see this willingness to, to include young people in many initiatives.
[00:26:16] Biliana: And I hope this, that this stays beyond a year. Um, and. Quite convinced that it will stay because there is a very strong. If I can say business case of why we should do that. Why should young people have a say in our processes? Why should we consult them? There is a very strong case for that. And I think if we give these opportunities this year and we will see the value and how this can make our processes more efficient, there can be more buy-in from people we can really gain from their
[00:26:47] Biliana: creativity and solutions and their competencies. So, uh, I think this, this is likely that it is likely that we continue this.
[00:26:58] Clotilde: I think it's very interesting what you said [00:27:00] regarding, um, the, the legacy of the year and the fact that we, it is seen as, so has like paving the way, um, to new forms of cooperation within the, youth sector and also with young people.
[00:27:12] Clotilde: And I think it's, um, it sounds very promising . Regarding. You talked about very concrete actions, cooperation connection with stakeholders, national coordinators and so on. If we think very concretely regarding the forthcoming weeks and months, what are your plans and what can all of us expect from the EU youth coordinator
[00:27:35] Biliana: So, um, I'm lucky to take part in a number of different activities, um, where I first get to meet young people and youth organizations and also, uh, policymakers. So for example, uh, tomorrow, um, we are, um, conducting, I will be moderating the youth policy dialogue on the climate backed with 14 [00:28:00] climate pact ambassadors and executive vice president of the commission Frans Timmermans, it will be in presence, but also webstream.
[00:28:06] Biliana: So anyone who's interested in watching it and asking their questions to the executive vice president will be able to do that on the Facebook event. And so this, these opportunities are really wonderful because I get to make these connections, understand the views of young people, better in the different areas.
[00:28:24] Biliana: So tomorrow will, the focus will be on sustainable consumption. And so this climate backed ambassadors are very engaged and knowledgeable on this topic and will be sharing their recommendations, uh, with the executive vice-president. And so there are a number of other events where I'm taking part like this.
[00:28:43] Biliana: Another thing which looking forward is the launch of something which is quite innovative in terms of a tool we will, we'll be launching this month, uh, 3d voice recording platform where young people and, and not only will be able to record their voices, [00:29:00] their messages to policymakers. Um, and in, uh, in, uh, I would say also, uh, in a cool way and in a fun way.
[00:29:08] Biliana: And so we hope this tool is used by by many. And then, uh, there will be kind of a feedback loop where on the bigger themes, I mean, we hope to get really thousands of messages, so it will not be about responding to each one. But the cross, when there are common themes or common suggests that there is some kind of a response from our commissioners and policymakers.
[00:29:31] Ismael: Thank you very much. Biljana for that very detailed explanation indeed. Or what is the actual concrete plan for the European year of youth all the time, like we were speaking at the beginning, it is very, a bit abstract and lots of people don't really understand what is going on. Um, we have spoken about what you've done, what you're going to do, what you're doing currently.
[00:29:47] Ismael: I think, uh, we've, uh, we've done that quite, quite well. Um, and unfortunately we're arriving now at an end of the episode, but do you have any, like maybe closing questions, anything you maybe, uh, any last thoughts you would like to [00:30:00] share with the listeners?
[00:30:02] Biliana: Well, I just want to say to your listeners, whether they're, you know, I know that you are followed by many youth workers, uh, young people and, and different decision-makers.
[00:30:12] Biliana: I would like to say that, uh, I would be very happy to connect with many of them, uh, bilaterally, uh, and, um, I'm available to do that. Uh, of course, depending on schedule, and all of that, but I really happy to, to, to connect with them, uh, to learn also more about the, the sector and their, where they're coming from, their challenges.
[00:30:36] Biliana: I think there, there are a variety of issues there and it's just through this kind of continuous dialogue and, um, that we, we understand better what we can do to, to address them. So just want to extend this, welcome to, to get contacted, uh, via email, or actually I'm, I'm trying to be also active on social media.
[00:30:57] Biliana: So happy to connect with your listeners. [00:31:00]
[00:31:02] Ismael: And with those thoughtful ending notes, we have reached an end to our episode. Thank you very much Biliana for participating in this podcast and Clotilde for co-hosting this episode with me, and again, to all the listeners. Remember you can follow us on Instagram at EUCOE youth.
[00:31:16] Ismael: To stay up to date with all our future content. Thank you very much and see you next time.