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USDN Podcast is a cinematic indie comics interview series hosted by the USDN_Chairman and the Council of Nerds spotlighting the creators, storytellers, and worldbuilders shaping the future of independent comics.
Each episode dives beyond headlines into the real journeys behind the books from Kickstarter launches and creative struggles to the philosophies driving today’s indie storytelling movement.
This isn’t about rumors or recycled news.
It’s about the people creating the worlds.
Through in-depth conversations, creator spotlights, and crowdfunding discussions, USDN explores:
• The rise of indie comics
• The business of crowdfunding
• The art of worldbuilding
• The realities of independent storytelling
USDN is where indie comics come to life for the fans, by the creators, and powered by the community.
You are listening to the USDN on the
DFPN.
Thanks for watching!
All right.
Oh, shit.
Okay,
so basically what's going to happen
tonight, it didn't go live to Facebook.
It popped up with an issue.
I don't know why,
but I will just press.
I'll just go to YouTube,
and I'll reshare it later.
But with that, what is up, everybody?
And welcome to the USDN Podcast,
where we are for the people,
by the people, and of the people.
In the darkest corners of imagination,
where science bends and humanity breaks,
where obsession doesn't just consume,
it transforms.
Tonight,
we return to the anthology-pushing indie
horror, Two Ways.
its limits this is aha the horror
anthology and tonight is episode number
five ladies and gentlemen the council of
nerds is now in session minaj squids
mckenzie welcome to the usdn podcast
fellas it's a pleasure to have y'all on
tonight howdy howdy it is a pleasure
indeed oh yeah glad to be here
So let's just dive in.
Manoj,
we'll start with you and then we'll jump
over to Lucas here.
Tell us who you are and kind of
how you got into comic books.
Sure, yeah.
Yeah,
I've always been reading comics since I
was a kid.
I grew up back in India and we
used to have these monthly magazines,
monthly comic magazines,
sort of like the metal hurl and heavy
metal magazines that you have it here.
Okay.
Yeah,
so I used to read them every month,
loved them.
But then I started getting into more of
the regular literature, like other books.
Kind of stopped reading comics for a bit.
But then when I moved to the US
a few years ago,
I actually was at a local comic book
store.
And I was like, whoa,
these are all the Western comics that I've
been missing out on.
And I kind of wanted to check them
out.
you know,
one of the books was actually Phantom Road
by Jeff Lemire and I was like, oh,
that cover looks cool.
Yeah, I was like, oh,
that cover looks cool because I was under
the impression that comics are mostly like
Marvel and DC, right?
So I realized that I was missing out
on a lot of indie stories.
I mean,
now I know Jeff Lemire is not indie,
but
to me at that time i was like
whoa uh you know what's this and then
they all have an indie heart man yeah
yeah yeah for sure so that's how that's
how i got into it i started you
know uh uh reading them uh falling in
love with them again i was like whoa
this like and i was kind of uh
starting to getting into writing at the
same time so i was like why not
why not do this why not write for
comics and that's that's how i started a
few years ago
Lucas, same question, man.
Okay, so I've always been a doodler.
I've always loved creating.
I've always had an affinity of creating
little worlds in my head and putting them
on paper or putting them on the screen,
whatever it may be.
But officially getting into...
actually making comics I would say it's
all started on a little known time event
in history back in twenty twenty when
everybody was going crazy in their house
and a way to stave off the boredom
of everything
another artist friend of mine and I gave
each other a little task design a
character every day until we reach a
hundred characters total so we tried doing
that we made some fun characters we made
some stupid characters and then on the
fifty two mark we're like okay but what
if all these characters just like
fought each other to the death.
So my first web comic was born by
the name of NME,
National Manhunting Entertainment.
It was, I will say, not best written,
but it was a very fun,
gory little project.
And yeah, since then,
I met more people in the scene,
kind of got reviews and met people who
actually make physical comics for a
living.
now i'm here uh i have met so
many wonderful people so many creative
people uh on this journey and um i
am excited to like make more stuff with
more insanely talented people i like it
man so we all know kind of how
that everybody came together for this
comic book with chris and chris kind of
selecting everybody and then pairing
everybody up
Um,
so when y'all first connected on the
bearer,
what were those early conversations like
between y'all?
I think we clicked instantly.
Okay.
I agree.
Yeah.
I think we have to thank Chris and
Chris for that.
Like it was a great pairing, uh,
cause we instantly, we were like,
you know, bouncing off, uh,
ideas with each other.
Yeah.
It was perfect.
Yeah.
Uh,
as soon as I heard like the initial
the initial pitch of body horror Indian
folklore obsession with science to birth
things of higher powers I was instantly
hooked and yeah when we like started
talking about it like
I was immediately in my sketchbook just
like coming up with stuff.
And Minaj,
you are an incredible partner for this
because you came insanely prepared.
So I think we had like a very...
I would say we were fairly efficient in
the way we ran this.
Okay.
No, I like it.
So I've seen the concept art.
I've read the concept of the story.
And I'm absolutely like,
I cannot wait to get this book in
my hands because every story has been
great.
But this one,
it really pushed some boundaries.
And it was just like, dude,
this is absolutely insane.
So when this first took shape,
What was kind of that core idea that
both of you kind of locked in on?
And Lucas,
we'll start with you on that one.
Well, for me, I, well,
as somebody who loves the,
I love the subgenre of body horror.
I think there's something inherently like,
Not just horrifying,
but also very intriguing about the
changing of oneself.
And for it to be something in a
way that our hero is doing this in
a divine sense.
He wants to create something grand.
He wants to create something holy.
it made it really interesting for me on
a lot of my like concepts and research
for like doing a lot of this work
I was I was talking with Manoj about
kind of like I would say like folk
paintings art from like
depicting divinity from,
I think you said it was set in
Burma, right?
West Bengal, yeah.
Bengal, my bad.
Yeah,
so I was looking at a lot of
old art from
like depicting these kind of like
religious iconography and i wanted to try
and like blend in some of the color
palettes and uh themes in that and i
i just had so much fun doing that
trying to make something both horrific but
in our hero's eyes something beautiful
yeah
Manoj over to you with the same question,
man.
Sorry,
I'm actually sharing the this now over to
Facebook,
either any way I can just to get
it there.
But I'm still here.
I'm still listening.
Manoj, same question.
Like,
what was that core idea you both kind
of locked in on from your perspective?
Yeah, sure.
I think when I was coming up with
this idea,
and then first I decided the subgenre of
body horror,
because I was reading these comics from
India,
and then I was also trying to read
a lot of Western comics.
I was trying to bring these both worlds
together in a way,
which means that I do see a lot
of body horror in the Western media,
but there's not much Indian body horror,
so to speak.
Even looking through a lot of references,
I couldn't find many out there.
So what I was trying to do is,
how do I bring something new to the
scene?
How do I bring something to the body
horror as a genre?
So I was looking at a lot of
references,
famously the David Cronenberg movies,
The Fly, Crimes of the Future.
And we all know a bunch of body
horror movies, Human Centipede.
Oh, yeah.
Walrus, you name it.
Yeah.
So I was trying to find a common
theme among these movies.
And usually,
it's either the protagonist torturing
someone or torturing themselves.
And I was trying to see, OK,
what more can we do differently within
this particular subgenre of torturing
people?
And that is when this idea originated for
me.
What if you're torturing yourself,
but for a reason,
like maybe you believe that it's actually
like good and something good comes out of
it.
And I was playing around with this mad
scientist trope that we are all aware of.
What if the scientist believes that
they're not mad?
And, you know,
like what if they want to do something
good for the world,
but you as a reader would not know
if that's good or not.
And that's where we leave the story with.
It's for the reader to decide if this
is good or not.
But yeah,
that's how I kind of laid out the
idea and kind of reverse engineered it.
I like it.
The whole idea, the whole concept,
and even the doubt he has in his
mind.
I don't want to say it was a
doubt.
It was he questioned whether it was the
right call to use himself.
You know?
Just that momentary of doubt that he had
once...
he had really looked in the mirror to
see what he had or was becoming.
So that to me was kind of like,
Ooh, like, yeah,
because there's a lot of red tape you
got to go through to run trials like
this on a human.
Yeah, yeah.
But if you're doing it to yourself,
it's kind of wild.
Yeah,
you usually have lab rats that you're
touching to make something out of it.
But I guess, in a way, he's selfish.
Oh, there's a lot of ego there.
A lot of ego.
Yeah, yeah.
I absolutely love this concept of a story.
This is body horror rooted in science.
What made you commit wholeheartedly?
What was it about this that made you
go, this is it, both of you?
Because that's a... I mean,
both of you had a chance to kind
of go, eh.
And I know how Chris and Chris are.
They probably heard this idea and were
like, yes, give us more.
I think what really probably did it for
me is I like the idea of like
science and religion coming together.
And, you know,
so whenever I was trying to think of
it as an Indian body horror story and
like the country's now deeply rooted in
religion.
And I was trying to bring that folklore
element within the story.
So that's that's what really locked it in
for me.
And I was like, well, like,
how do we combine science and religion?
And we don't tell the reader to pick
sides, right?
That's their choice.
And we ask them, OK,
how do these combine together
dichotomy of concepts like do they even
like blend together into one and the
scientist does believe so like he thinks
that okay like he in his mind he
is not a mad scientist but maybe you
might think that he is like okay this
actually there is a line in the story
that says hey others have warned me not
to do this like someone has thought of
this before and I was kind of playing
around this idea of like
literature review in the science field,
right?
Like, a lot of people already, like,
research upon a singular idea,
and then they say, hey,
let's not proceed further on this,
because it's probably not good.
But this guy, he doesn't listen to it.
And that's, again, like, you know,
that ego aspect that you were talking
about.
Yeah, like, other people, like,
you can't be the coming of the new
god.
It has to be me.
I have to create...
the divine um no i'll be honest menage
when you gave me like the finalized script
i read through it and like without a
doubt in my mind i was like yeah
yeah that this is this is this is
perfect for me i i want to make
some
want to make some nasty things yeah dude
that's i don't want to say it but
in one of the panels that you had
sent me and he's got himself like all
hooked up i was like dude this is
like disturbing but you can't look away
it's like a car crash right you don't
want to look you don't want to stare
but you find yourself doing both anyways
exactly
And that's body horror, right?
Like, in a nutshell.
And that's something that Southeast Asia,
I think, does better than anybody else.
Like,
when you watch some of their horror movies
and that kind of stuff,
they are so good at that genre right
there.
And it's in the folklore from the regions
into it.
I think Japan does it really well.
Korea does it really well.
Apparently India does too,
because this was like, you have no idea.
I know the book is officially a hundred
percent funded and I'm so excited for
everybody,
but I'm more excited for myself because I
want the damn book.
You know,
it's a little bit of selfishness there on
my part because I want the book so
bad.
So the final concept of this birth in
a God, right?
What does that mean to each of you
creatively?
Because we're talking two different
cultures here,
but how did each one of you look
at that from your, both of your obvious,
very different creative outputs here with
Minaj being the writer and Squid,
you being the artist bringing Minaj's
visions to life.
Imanaj,
we can start with you on that one.
Yeah, so I guess, like I was saying,
I was trying to
know not pick a side so to speak
or like kind of blend in two different
cultures uh so actually one of the
sketches that we have sent you is the
guy is undergoing like a blood transfusion
and he is in this inverted cross position
and that was kind of intentional because
like yes this is uh it is set
in india and i didn't notice that yeah
religion, so to speak, but also, you know,
God is,
it could be any God or it could
be any divinity.
So I was trying to say that, okay,
this is not just about Indian religion or
Indian folklore.
This is a universal theme.
And it was trying to like, you know,
play around with that idea of, okay, like,
you know,
this guy is essentially trying to be God
in a way or trying to, you know,
play around with that idea of like,
what if I can be the one that
can change humanity?
And that,
that is an universal theme of like greed,
selfishness, and it applies to anywhere.
Uh, and that that's, that's why like,
you know,
thematically I was trying to have some
references that are not just specifically
only Indian,
but also like a fusion of both the
cultures.
Yeah, it,
it definitely gives off like a lot of
like the idea of a moral man trying
to bring.
essentially I guess his own god,
his own idea of a god into existence
on so many aspects no matter what culture
you're in I would assume that is fairly
blasphemous on all the fronts but still
trying to frame it as like
This will be the coming of a new
age.
This will fix everything it's like He
might have good intentions,
but it is also very like Time you
could tell in just how the few panels
I've seen in the you know,
the the synopsis of the story you can
kind of pick out the points in the
story where
everything started with good intentions
from a scientific perspective.
And then as it got further and further
and further,
his own mind and he legitimately,
you could tell at what point he starts
to go mad little by little by little
as he himself progresses through this
transformation.
Wild shit, y'all.
Thank you.
But, um,
So let's talk a little bit about the
science and kind of like the obsession of
this and some of the realism in it.
You're pulling from real biological
concepts like asexual reproduction.
How deep did the research go for both
of you on just that kind of stuff?
Because you're exploring something that
technically only found in the animal
world.
So like when you were writing the concept
Minaj for you, like what was like,
did you just go down this giant rabbit
hole of this?
I did.
I did.
That's exactly what I did.
I was trying to read a lot about.
uh, asexual reproduction, like, you know,
uh, what it is, uh, and like,
you know, which mammals have it.
And there is like a point in the
story where this guy has a revelation
that, okay, Hey,
I have only been looking at mammals,
but maybe I have to, uh, you know,
increase the scope.
And that's kind of like how I have
been.
looking at it in a research point of
view when I was reading it too because
I was only looking at oh maybe he's
trying to like transform into a bunch of
animals that can essentially reproduce but
then I guess at some point you know
like he keeps failing and he wants to
push the boundary to the next level where
until he doesn't want to take failure as
an option so he keeps pushing himself
until he's successful whatever that means
for him
Lucas, you had to draw that man.
Oh, it was a joy.
I will say I've
One of my struggles as an artist is
some types of animals.
Manoj,
you helped me with this as I was
doing a little bit of research of whiptail
lizards or hammerhead sharks and other
little things of trying to incorporate
these kind of features into
Yeah, sure.
How would it look like if a guy
tries to surgically change his body
structure to that of a whiptail lizard?
So, I mean, learning experiences.
And I just had a lot of fun
with it.
I could tell from the panels that you
sent over, and I was just like, dude,
this...
yeah it was just fantastic to see the
panels before other people have gotten to
see them i will use them in the
clips so people will get just enough taste
to wet their whistle so to speak on
this and um and especially like the uh
the main sticker as we're calling them
just like really cool to see like this
Indian god.
You know,
it's got the Indian influence there,
but I'm not sure if that's a real
Indian god or not.
Just to see that kind of real cool
concept of this with maybe what this
creature or scientist may be eventually.
So just all really cool stuff there,
and I really...
I can't say enough good things about where
this story is going to go.
And I really hope y'all would work
together, maybe in the future,
to continue this story,
maybe like a one-shot, you know?
But we can talk about that one,
you know, later,
because we're going to talk about some of
that later.
But how important was it that the horror
feels grounded in reality instead of just
like purely fantastical fiction,
so to speak?
Yeah,
I think me and Lucas were discussing this
a couple of times a while ago,
like when we first started sketching it
out.
We didn't want to limit it to a
specific time frame.
So it could be the nineteen hundreds,
it could be the two thousands.
So this guy knew about hammerhead shark
and people didn't know about a hammerhead
shark probably in eighteen hundreds.
we kind of can put together a timeline
uh so to speak but we didn't want
to want the reader to like get bogged
down by the details of like oh this
is set in a futuristic or a fantastical
era uh we wanted to keep it as
real as possible so that you know the
horror hits home and from my point of
view uh coming at it from like the
idea of body horror i've
always found it a little bit more
concerning upsetting when there are still
aspects of the human in the quote-unquote
monster like dr moreau comes to mind when
i hear that like we could have like
Godzilla.
I love Godzilla.
I don't think Godzilla is that scary.
I mean,
terrifying because it is a massive lizard
destroying a destroyer.
But when I see like and I think
I sent you the image of our scientists
like crawling on all fours,
but you see like there is something human
there that like
you're not sure how much human is left
in that yeah and i i've always found
the uncanny and the unsettling to be like
that's my like yeah that's my favorite
kind of like spooky i guess you could
say yeah no it comes through
That's actually one of the first decisions
we made when designing this character.
We wanted him to have full hair,
full beard,
so that he slowly uses it as the
story progresses.
Yeah.
Kind of like, oh,
is this the same guy?
Like, wow.
No, dudes, this, like I said,
I've only had the honor of reading the
synopsis of the story in the couple of
panels that were sent over by y'all.
And if that just gives me enough to
just like,
let my imagination run wild with what this
is,
that I know the entire how many pages
is your story?
Eight pages.
eight pages to squeeze out a horror
masterpiece is extremely hard to do but i
cannot wait god i i keep saying it
but i really like duke story which you
know hits very differently um
tony's very different feel and as a father
that's for duke's story as well that's
like horrifying right but this one is like
that different type of feel to it that
different type of horror that just was
like when you rent a scary movie like
this it hits all the check marks you
know what i'm saying
And it doesn't like human centipede was
just absolutely disgusting.
The walrus different or tusk.
I'm sorry.
The name of the movie is Tusk.
Very different,
the same concept as human centipede,
but still horrifying.
Nonetheless,
that some scientists is out there doing
this kind of stuff.
It's just.
Yeah, at its core, so this question,
at its core,
is the story more about the science or
the obsession of our doctor?
And we can start with you on that
one.
Yeah, I think it's a bit of both.
So there is this aspect of other people
telling him, hey,
we did research this idea.
Obviously,
there are other people like him that
thought about this before.
So he's not the one and only one
that thought of this idea.
And they say,
do not do this for whatever reason.
And I was trying to hint that, OK,
when people
smarter people who have done their
research on this, real scientists,
did their work,
you probably should listen to them.
But this guy,
he's obsessed with this idea of doing this
for greater good, is what he believes.
So it is a mixture of both, yes.
He thinks that he can do it better
than anyone.
He thinks that he can pull this off
because he has good intentions.
Lucas, you agree with that?
Oh, yeah.
Like, in simple terms, like,
I would say the science is... Well, yes,
he does have these good intentions.
The science brings him to kind of a...
On a physical level,
a point of no return.
And the obsession...
Has already... Like...
That obsession has already taken him off
the deep end.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Um...
one of them is feeding the other one
and vice versa they're just they're
feeding off of each other and amplifying
his mentality on just the next level the
next level I've made it this far in
this journey I can't stop now because
nobody else can do this yeah and actually
on that note like when you were mentioning
earlier if you are not sure if this
is real god so we wanted to create
this like fictional entity right like
the thing is as the reader you do
not know if it's real or not like
sure he did succeed in like creating
something but maybe like that's not god
that's probably like a demon that's that
is here to destroy the world he thinks
he is uh successful in like you know
birthing some new entity but you do not
know like what that is even
And he does not know what that is
even.
So he just is hell-bent on creating this
new creature, so to speak.
And yeah, that could be anything,
which is why we kind of leave at
this ambiguous point of him succeeding.
But you do not know where this will
even lead to.
This is something special.
So I know the selection process for this
But when y'all were finally connected
together now, Minaj,
did you already have like this story kind
of like on the shelf or like did
you get selected for this and go, oh,
shit, I need to write a story?
uh yeah i just had the idea like
one line idea that i pitched to uh
chris and chris to start with but then
when they uh were you know like excited
with this idea i then realized that i
have to like build out a script i
usually like you know do some rough
storyboarding so that it's easier for the
artist uh like you know do some sketches
about like how the layout should look like
uh because this is a visual medium of
after all so we have to figure out
how can we show this like as we
intended to?
So I was trying to like kind of
imagine,
so actually when I was sending the script
to Lucas,
I also sent him a couple of storyboards,
a couple of layouts of like how I
think each page could look like as a
suggestion, obviously like, you know,
he then took it to the next level
and yeah, that's how I started.
I just had an idea and then once
I was selected,
I built out the pitch and the script.
Okay.
I know a lot of artists are like
you have artists on both sides of this,
right?
Some just like, hey,
just tell me the story and I got
it.
And I know there's some artists who are
like, give me the whole storyboard.
Like, what are you looking for?
What time of day is this?
And with this one,
it's a little bit different because it's
obviously a laboratory that you are
working in.
But Lucas, what kind of artists are you?
Are you the,
I can work with the story and that's
all I need?
Or do you want those finer details,
almost like a Bible of the story?
Since we're all religious too.
I'm normally the type of guy who just
like, oh,
just give me an idea and I'll run
off of it.
And then once...
I was partnered up with Manoj and you
gave me the script and you gave me
the thumbnails and like the storyboards
and everything there.
I'm like,
I have never experienced this in my life.
This is so easy.
And so we, we quite frankly,
we banked this out in like,
how long did it take us?
It was like, it's a month.
Yeah.
I think we were done by the end
of March.
I had like a month ago.
Yeah, we were very much ahead of schedule.
I'm not used to having so much
preparedness from a writer.
Oftentimes, it's just...
Oftentimes,
I used to just do everything myself.
I would write.
I would storyboard.
I would do all that.
Recently,
I've been working with another partner who
has been wonderful.
And that was the kind of thing where
he gives me a script,
and I just run with it.
Yeah.
But here,
having a clear vision of the layout,
it does very much streamline the process.
It really does.
I've heard artists say they will take
anything and everything.
When I interviewed Sabe,
who's an Italian artist,
he does a ShotKid at Peter.
And with Light and Shadow, you know, E.B.
Coogan, Jessica Silvetti,
very talented writers.
They work in Hollywood.
They do screenplays.
They do all that.
And when they sit down and they wrote
the entirety of Shock-Headed Peter,
and when I interviewed them,
they pulled this...
Binder and I mean binder and it wasn't
like a standard binder.
It was like a binder This is the
Bible of shot kid at Peter in a
head everything from characters to the
town to the townsfolk
down to all of these little small details
for Sabe to work with.
And it was just wild when I was
sitting there talking to EB and Jess and
he pulled it off the shelf.
Like you had to grab this thing with
two hands and he had to roll back.
And then he kind of like,
opened it and i mean this thing is
like this thick and i was just like
dude that i can't imagine how save felt
and i'm sure you felt the same way
lucas just getting all these details just
like blah here you go dude you know
how great that had to feel as an
artist just to get everything like boom
here you go it really uh it really
cut oh squid you there
Oh no, did we lose Squid?
Yeah.
Squid!
Yeah, he froze on us.
Let me see if I can't shoot him
a message to... Alright, in the meantime,
Minaj, we're not going to let...
We're not going to waste good air time,
man.
So when y'all were...
When you were writing this story and he
was drawing the story...
Were y'all giving each other feedback and
giving stuff back and forth?
Did he have some inputs to the story,
just like you had inputs into the art?
Oh, there he is.
Hey!
He's back.
Do you know when you just did that,
who you reminded me of?
Pee-wee.
Pee-wee Herman?
Who's that?
You don't know who Pee Wee Herman is?
Oh, no, no.
Oh, sorry.
You cut out on me when you said
Pee Wee Herman.
So I said, who's that?
No, I know Pee Wee Herman.
But when you were all like,
I was like,
did you look just like Pee Wee when
you did that?
Yes.
Pee Wee Herman right there.
That is not the first time I got
that.
So I'll take it.
I love you.
Hey, you know, great dude, great actor.
You know, rest easy, my man.
But I was just discussing with Minaj,
kind of like,
as he was writing this story and,
you know, you were drawing the story,
were y'all giving each other kind of,
like, feedback?
Did you get some inputs into the story?
Like,
did he get some inputs into the art?
Like, how was that, like,
collaboration between the two of you on
the story?
Like,
both of you had inputs to everything or
how was that?
Oh, yeah, we were very...
we communicated quite a bit during this so
like anytime i had a sketch uh anytime
he had suggestions or uh ideas on like
oh how can we make this a little
bit more effective yeah we were um i
i would say that uh our communication was
a very strong point uh over the uh
over the course of this whole thingamaroo.
Yeah.
That's really cool.
Were there any moments where one of you
had something in mind that took either the
story or the art from here up to
that next level?
Was there something along the lines where
Minaj or Lucas, either one of you,
were like, hey,
if we did tweak this one thing right
here, it's going to push it right here?
Did y'all have anything like that?
I think there were a couple of moments
like that, like the final page,
for instance.
I think Lucas did an amazing job on
that.
I had like a random storyboard.
I wasn't sure like what to do for
the final page.
I know how it should look like,
but I know it's the final splash page,
right?
So it's got to stay in the reader's
mind.
So I was like,
what do we do with this?
And Lucas came with like a very great
idea of like, you know,
How about we mix some colors here from
the real world, Indian folklore,
and bring it out like this.
So the final splash page is actually
great.
I wanted to implement a lot of bright
colors.
Like,
bright colors that would usually represent
beauty, represent, like, royalty, again,
divinity.
And stuff that's, like,
stuff you don't normally see in normal,
like, body horror media.
So yeah, I...
I'm somebody who has a lot of fun
with colors.
You can't see by the color of my
camera.
So yeah,
I am very proud of that final page.
And yeah,
even after we kind of came to that
conclusion,
you did bring up a couple of things
of like, OK,
so here we have our guy who is
You'll all see this once it's in your
hands.
He is prepared to essentially give birth.
And Manaj, you were like,
let's try and really pronounce, like,
okay, yeah, this guy is about to, like,
deliver a god.
Um, so we,
we did a little bit of a little
bit of fun, fun stuff there.
So it's kind of wild, right?
So when you think about an anthology,
there's eight stories in this anthology.
There's a beginning and middle and an end
to a story,
a beginning and middle and an end to
a comic book.
So you basically get the first page,
the middle page and the last page to
really drive everything home that you want
to drive home.
It sounds like you did it, dude.
I cannot wait to get it.
Yeah, and we had some really cool layouts.
I can't wait for you to see it,
because that's one thing that I do like
when I see it in a comic book.
you see these like mobius strips and like
different kinds of layouts yeah artists do
uh i love that because you know like
it's it really brings out the show don't
tell aspect but done in a cool way
uh so we were trying to like you
know experiment with like how can we make
the layout very cool so there is this
layout in page six that i'm very excited
for people to see okay i think it's
pretty unique yeah like you need splash
pages like that yes yes it is something
outside the
you know yes exactly oh yeah that's
awesome i love that i really do um
let's see where where you at because i'm
having so much fun talking to y'all that
i'm kind of like i got everything over
here but i'm just like winging it too
you know
So pushing limits,
was there ever a moment where y'all both
were just like,
do we take it that far?
I mean, you obviously did,
but was there ever a moment where you
kind of were just like,
maybe we shouldn't on that one?
Maybe not the idea-wise, but writing-wise,
I do like to have these little puzzles
for the readers so that it's much more
rewarding when they figure it out and then
give it a second read and then it
all comes together in place.
There were a couple of things that I
did to bring that puzzle-like story
element where
the first few pages you just see what
he's doing and then in the final pages
so you don't usually like I guess when
you are having exposition you have it in
the same panel as where the action is
being done so I kind of like switch
the exposition to after the action being
done so that the readers put together in
mind oh I've seen that so that's what
this is that's kind of like a confirmation
to the readers that oh I've been reading
this right
And there are a couple of things that
I did that I did like that within
this particular comic.
But one thing that I was kind of
like going back and forth,
I think I was discussing with this look
with Lucas too,
which is
What if we do not actually explicitly tell
the readers what's going on?
We just kind of leave it a little
bit too vague.
You have to let the art tell some
of the story too.
Words can't tell it all.
Like you said earlier,
it's a very visual medium, right?
For sure.
So that's actually what we have kind of
went back and forth on where like, okay,
let's crush the readers.
We have like left enough clues within the
story.
And then, you know,
visually it is a fun read by itself,
but visually like once you get what's
happening,
it's much more rewarding for you to like
go back to the page one and then
read it again.
So that's, yeah,
that's much more rewarding when we did
that,
like when we were able to pull that
off.
I think we did.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
On the art side of things,
saying if I push too far on a
body horror.
Hard, right?
It's like you go hard or go home.
There was one thing that I was like,
and it wasn't even like.
Oh, this might be too much.
This might be too gross.
So I did send you the image of
the scientist who is strung up on the
upside-down crucifix,
and he's got all the tubes in him.
And this one's a little bit silly.
The tube that was connected to his...
Yuhu.
Crotular region.
It's Yuhu.
Yeah, it is Yuhu.
Yeah, the... It was a very large... Uh...
Uh... Yuhuicular-shaped tube, and...
I was like, okay,
maybe this is a little bit too much.
So I just changed it up a little
bit.
Oh, shit.
That's good, dude.
That's good.
I love that.
Of all the things for you to go,
maybe it's a little too much.
The funny thing is when Lucas sent that
image to me,
that was my first thought as well.
Is this a little too...
That's a bit much.
Hey, he's been experimenting on himself.
Maybe he's got, you know,
instead of the eight ounce you who,
he's got the six ounce you who.
Hey.
Oh, damn.
So I got to ask though.
So the pages you sent me are all
done in like three or four colors.
I think it's like the red and there's
some yellows, the blacks.
is the earlier part of the book done
the same way or is it do we
start out in like a normal setting and
then as this story unfolds do the colors
just become darker or is the whole story
told that way so we have like a
basic like a basic color palette
throughout usually oranges kind of like
deep purples and browns
Each section of...
It's broken down into several sections
based off of his experiments.
We implement different highlight colors.
We have a scene where he is...
experimenting with a certain type of serum
and um we sprinkle in like jolts of
like bright yellows and golds uh
throughout the panels and you can see that
like in his veins his eyes his teeth
those are all highlighted with like the
bright yellows we have like a scene of
him like um
essentially like sewing all his orifices
all of his orifices shut and like we
have like bright blood reds on all the
experimented parts of him and then like by
the final scene I
Like the final page,
I just incorporated all the other accent
colors into the one final experiment.
Okay.
All right.
Dude, I already like it.
You gotta sell me twice, buddy.
So what type of reaction are you both
aiming for from the readers?
Discomfort, fear, kind of fascination?
What...
what what reaction do you want people to
walk away from after they've read this
probably twice to go what the hell once
they get over the what the hells what
do you like what do you want from
them and lucas we can start with you
on that one
I want them to walk away with a
pit in their stomach.
I like it.
I like it.
Just like one of those...
I'm sure you've all seen a movie where
after you watch it,
it's just in the back of your mind
when you're trying to sleep.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I want them to think about it again.
I think that's what I would love.
We read a lot of stuff that goes
over after a few hours, we forget it.
But if you think about it the next
day, that is something that I would love.
You thought that, oh,
I've never read this story,
which is Indian body horror, folk horror.
This is something that is new to me.
This is a cool idea.
If that stays with you,
I would love that.
And of course,
I wanted to think it's creepy.
Is Bollywood going to adapt this into a
screenplay?
Let's hope.
And then I will be on this interview
again.
Hell yeah, dude.
Let's do it.
Because this is one of those where I'm
like, you turn this into a ninety minute,
two hour movie?
I'm in the theater, man.
Like, this is like insane.
Just the concept itself.
Just everything about this is just...
Next level of,
do you feel some discomfort?
Yes.
On a scale of one to ten,
where's your pain, right?
And it's just – it's so fascinating to
see a story like this.
And this is one of those stories where
if I'm reading an anthology or anything,
I'm probably going to go back to the
beginning anyway and read it again because
I want to see the little details.
And people are like, oh,
you can read a comic book in ten
minutes.
I'm like, you –
can read a comic book in ten minutes
i cannot because i am looking at the
art i'm looking at the little details i'm
looking for is there an easter egg in
here that is going to tell me a
clue later on in the story i'm looking
for all those little things and that's how
i read a comic book right i i
think if you've
if you enjoy the medium enough and if
you're really into that story, you will,
once you're at that last page,
you will flip it back over and you
will reread it again and just,
or maybe just do a page by page,
you know,
where you're just looking at the art and
looking at what's presented to you.
Then you may turn it back over again
and do it a third time where you
go with the words and the,
and the action and,
And that's how I read a comic book.
So for people, when people always say, oh,
you know,
it takes me about ten minutes to read
a comic book.
I'm like, yeah,
but you're not digesting that comic book.
You're just consuming.
I won't digest it.
We got a lot of splash pages.
So if you look at them like in
a second,
you can read this in two minutes.
But I think that's when you kind of
like maybe at the end, you're like, oh,
I missed all these details.
Let me go back to it.
Yeah.
No, if there's a big-ass splash page,
I'm going to be on that splash page
for a minute because I'm going to be
like this.
Just going through it.
And I'm not looking for errors.
I'm not looking for mistakes.
I'm enjoying the work that is in front
of my face, right?
So that is how I like to do
it.
But that brings us to this, fellas.
Why has...
being part of AHA meant for both of
you as creators?
I know you're both really young in the
industry,
because that was part of what Chris and
Chris wanted to do is bring a bunch
of young guys together, or guys,
and I say young,
but guys that are young in the industry
together to make this amazing horror
anthology.
So what does that mean for y'all?
A, just to have been selected for it,
because I know how Chris and Chris are.
They were probably very selective in this,
but to be a part of that,
what does that mean for y'all?
I think I've seen it.
No, just go ahead.
Thank you.
Sorry, Lucas.
You were in there, man.
He had a look in his eye to
say, let's go, Minaj.
Let's do it.
I love this excitement.
Yeah, I feel very grateful,
especially when we got the news that we
are funded.
a week ago right like we still have
like a few more years to go uh
so i'm like ten days i think or
seven days yeah i'm very excited to get
that final book you know the endorphins
that are going to be hit when you
like have that book in your hand that's
how i feel and i'm not even like
i don't have a well i have a
part of this but i don't have a
story i don't have anything related to it
but i
I've been so immersed into this that I
feel like I'm a part of the team
in a way, you know what I'm saying?
So everything you're describing right now,
that's exactly how I feel.
When I seen it was funded,
I was like,
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jumping into it.
Yes, exactly.
Uh, yeah.
And I'm very happy.
I'm very happy to be able to tell
the story.
Uh, I obviously like, you know, uh,
want to tell something that's unique and
like, you know,
something that doesn't exist out there.
And the fact that I was able to
even get this onto page and got an
amazing artist that I could collaborate
with potentially for future work.
Yeah.
This,
this is something that I'm very happy
with.
Yeah.
Lucas, over to you, man.
This was super exciting for me.
I've never been part of a Kickstarter or
anything like that.
And being a part of such a great
team, I see...
All y'all in the discord just like always
chatting and collaborating.
I'm more of a lurker.
I work all the time, but I'm there.
I'm looking at y'all.
But yeah, when
I was like on the edge of my
seat during like that last hundred dollar
rush to the, to the funding.
I'm just like,
I wasn't the only one dude.
Cause I was right.
I was like, I was just,
we got plenty of time for,
we got plenty of time to spare,
but I was watching that last like dollar
as I'm like, yeah.
Was that seem like you were almost funded.
I immediately brought up Kickstarter.
I'm like,
obviously I got a lot of shows to
write and then I come back and I
was like alright I can't stay up any
longer I gotta go to bed and I
think I woke up the next morning and
it was like boom and yeah I think
it was at that time at some point
I was like I just messaged Manoj and
I'm like you we're making another one
Let's do it.
And the funny thing is I was going
to text Lucas the same thing.
I was like, okay,
once this campaign is done,
I was going to tell him, hey,
if you're up for it,
I would love to do another project with
him.
And before I could even say it,
he texted me that.
That's awesome.
I love that.
I love that y'all have come together to
make this cool writer-artist team out of
this.
And that's what it's really all about at
the end of the day, right?
For sure.
So good question right here.
Why do you think indie horror is thriving
right now?
And I don't just mean comic books,
but also on the actual movie production
side, indie horror is thriving right now.
Look at studios like A-Twenty-Four and
what is it, Atomic Monster,
thriving right now.
Same is applying to the comic book world.
Why do y'all think that is?
And Lucas,
we can start with you on that one.
Ooh, that's a good question.
I think it's just generally,
on a general sense,
people like the feeling of getting a
little bit spooked.
And right now,
especially in this day and age, it is...
easier than ever to, like,
get a group of people,
even if it's just, like, a small...
a small thing or a big thing, and,
like, get a group of people together,
put your ideas on paper, and, like,
make something fun.
Make something nasty.
Make something disturbing.
And, like, it's... I don't know.
I'm...
I'm loving it.
I'll be honest.
I'm with you.
Minaj, what do you think?
Yeah,
I think people want to be weirded out.
They want to see new stuff,
abstract stuff that they cannot get in
other genres.
So let's say if this, The Bearer,
is a science fiction story,
people will be like, hey, man,
what the hell are you writing?
I don't buy that the scientist could pull
this off.
Give me more...
a reasonable explanation about like what's
happening but in horror you can like go
beyond that edge maybe in science fiction
you can like you know do that too
but i think specifically in horror you
have this leeway of being a little bit
more abstract and hide the themes within
your story so yeah first first scare the
reader first scare the viewer and then
make them think about the themes that's
that's the difference i think personally
is between science fiction and horror
my two cents on this whole thing is
people are tired of the same old shit
i just read today they're making a new
child's play new chucky hey that's great i
don't want to see another you know child's
play movie a chucky movie i don't want
to really see another freddy krueger movie
or a jason movie i will take season
two of that hellblazer or
Hellraiser series,
if they want to give me that with
the female pinhead,
I will take that because that was really
good, right?
But I want something new, something fresh,
something different that people aren't
thinking about.
Just something out of the blue that's
going to give you something else to kind
of be scared of.
It kind of makes the hairs...
on your neck stand up maybe make that
pit of your stomach just kind of like
rotate once or twice you know because it's
new and it's fresh and like wait that
can kind of wait that that's possible
maybe that's fucking weird and creepy and
scary and i think that's the biggest thing
is people want a new way to feel
fear because we've experienced it all
already
We've had the slashers, the, you know,
the psychologicals,
fucker on a light screen,
thirty seven or something, you know,
fresh and new and different.
And I think that's the reason why that
industry is thriving so well,
not just on the movie side,
but also on the comic book side of
the medium.
And even in the novel,
if you want to talk about literature and
novels, they are also thriving right now.
So.
Yeah, I agree.
I think, you know,
like we have a lot of new movies
like indie horror that are, you know,
getting really popular.
And that's what the best about indie
comics is.
Like there's no one,
like not ten people telling you like, hey,
do not like cross this boundary.
We got to like watch.
There's nothing like that.
All you want is a comic book, buddy.
Yeah, yeah.
This is where the true horror is at.
Oh, I love it, dude.
And I love that Chris and Chris put
this together, man.
But for creators watching right now,
what does it take to commit to bold
storytelling like this?
Because this is bold storytelling,
but at its finest,
if I got to say.
Yeah, thanks.
Thanks for that.
Yeah, yeah,
I think I would say definitely like
reading a lot does help.
I do read a lot because that's where
you take your inspiration from.
So for body horror,
I was actually like reading this book
called The Troop.
uh by nick carter and then i was
right i'm writing a bunch of other horror
stuff so i've been reading a lot of
other horror books across the genres and
also like within comic books specifically
so i think the more you read right
like the more new stuff you can probably
create because you know that hey something
like this already exists and if you don't
want to create something that's already
out there
then you have to be like aware of
like what's already out there so I think
that so I do love reading I mean
like if I get the time I try
to read a lot before I write the
story so that I'm not repeating myself or
like I'm not repeating what's already been
said I think that's what I would probably
say is most important I
I like to watch myself some movies.
Um, like for me,
I have been taking a lot of inspiration
from, um,
like especially with something like the,
the bear or something as bold and freaky
as that.
I think one of the biggest things that
really like, uh,
stuck out for me is one of my
personal favorite films is Tetsuo the Iron
Man.
If you've never heard of it,
it is about a man who gets cursed
by a dude he ran over and turns
into a living pile of scrap metal.
And it pulls...
it pulls no punches when it comes to
just pure nasty horror.
And it was filled with like,
I don't know,
like a thousand dollar budget and a trip
to a junkyard.
Um, but just go out there,
look at read,
watch all sorts of different types of like
media.
Like a lot of my other kind of
inspirations come from like,
fine art like I have a like on
my jacket I have a patch of the
Francisco Goya Saturn eating his own kid
sewn onto the back of my jacket um
I live right beside the Art Gallery of
Ontario, so when I get the chance,
I like to go there, bring my sketchbook,
and listen to some music and just absorb
art,
absorb the creative minds that people put
out into the world.
This is going to sound really weird,
but one of the movies that didn't...
I don't want to say it was scary,
but it fucked with my mind really bad
because of the plausibility of the story,
which is hostile.
That story fucked me up because you could
easily be backpacking through Europe or
through Asia and
staying in hostels and this is probably
has happened to be fair so that something
you had said just triggered that in my
mind for some reason but hostile for me
was like a movie where i was like
is it scary no but the possibility that
that is a plausible story that could have
already happened and we just don't know
about it scares the out of me
Yeah,
I think that's something that I drew
inspiration from as well when writing
this,
which is
You know, asexual reproduction,
it does occur in mammals, in vertebrates.
So why not in humans, right?
So that was the idea that came to
me when I was like, oh,
this is certainly a possibility when
someone is actively working on it,
especially when it's like a genius
scientist.
So he believes maybe he pulls it off.
And what happens then?
So that was what I was trying to,
you know,
but then combining that with religion.
Sorry, that was a tangent.
And first,
I don't know what it was that you
had just said, but hostile immediately,
like my head.
And I was just like,
that movie fucking scared me.
It felt so real, rich people,
kidnapping people to murder them in their
own sick and perverted way.
Like,
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But sorry,
I didn't mean to really like to catch
up off there with that one, Lucas.
But yeah.
No, that one.
Yeah,
that's still fuss with me to be honest.
And the fact that whatever you said popped
that into my mind,
I'm probably going to be thinking about
the rest of the day.
Thanks for that.
Apologies.
That's what I appreciate about you.
That was my Letterkenny reference for the
day because you're Canadian.
Sorry,
I'm a big fan of Shorzy and Letterkenny,
man.
I can't help it.
Oh, and Schitt's Creek.
Schitt's Creek's another brilliant piece
of Canadian cinematography.
And for anybody who doubts that they are
a liar and they're lying to themselves,
they have not watched Schitt's Creek to
tell me I'm a liar on that one.
But I got to ask.
So Lucas, remember earlier when I said,
hey,
let's not talk about that yet because
we're going to talk about it later.
Now we're going to talk about that thing.
What's next for both of you?
Aha's almost done.
We're at the stretch goals, right?
We're getting there.
And I know both of you have said
repeatedly now that you want to continue
to work together.
So what's next from both of you?
Well, Manoj, if you would like to.
Either one.
I don't care who starts it, but
Sure, I can go, I guess.
I am working on another anthology that I'm
trying to kind of take a huge swing
on, which is cosmic horror,
specifically the subgenre,
which is a bunch of cosmic horror short
stories set in various subgenres,
like sword and sorcery, cosmic horror,
weird Western cosmic horror.
So I'm trying to write out these stories
with a bunch of different artists.
and potentially put it on Kickstarter,
I think I might do that next month
or so.
So that's an immediate project that I'm
almost nearing its completion.
But yeah,
it is sort of like a huge swing
in the sense that it's very niche,
subgenre, cosmic horror.
Everyone knows Lovecraftian horror,
of course.
But I was trying to go beyond the
A couple of others to name with Robert
W. Chambers, H.P.
Lovecraft, Nate Barron.
I was trying to like read a bunch
of short stories by them and see what
else can be said within this cosmic horror
subgenre.
So yeah,
I think it could be pretty fun if
it works out.
Yeah, it is a huge swing.
That's one.
And then obviously because I'm kind of
not doing anything else.
Uh, and luckily Lucas reached out to me.
Uh, I have this great idea.
I think, uh,
we were just talking about this this week
and actually even today.
And I think it could be very unique.
We were, we are very excited about it.
Lucas over to you, man.
So yes, we, uh, as Manoj just said,
we are kind of working on, uh,
building a little short comic of our own.
I don't know how much you want to
tell the audience.
Are we getting some breaking news?
Is that what we're doing?
It's still very early.
Can you drop a hint?
It's very early.
Are we talking horror, sci-fi, thriller,
psychological?
What are we talking about?
It's kind of like Dark Souls.
If you're aware of the game,
it's like Dark Fantasy.
So it's not quite horror.
But yeah,
I would say it's Dark Fantasy mostly.
Yeah, dark fantasy with some, like,
maybe a little bit of surrealist elements.
Okay.
Okay.
So... Currently on my docket,
I am working on a game jam for...
I'm working on several tabletop
role-playing games.
Nice.
So I have a game...
So I have one in the works that's
going to be a quick and easy one.
It's essentially a you play the survivors
in a summer camp with a slasher on
the loose.
And it's just one of those like
Go in, one to three hour game,
gather supplies,
get the hell out of Dodge before a
big hillbilly with hedge clippers comes at
you.
So Crystal Lake meets Rome Turn meets D&D.
Exactly.
And in the system, we're, like,
you're class... So rather than playing,
like, rogues, sorcerers, you play as,
like, the jock, the nerd, the final girl.
And each has their own, like,
pluses and minuses.
And, of course,
you have different killers.
You got your Jason-like,
you got your Freddy-like, you have, like,
like a group of killers like a cult
there's like five killers on the map and
it's all dependent
dependent on the roles.
I'm really excited for that one.
That seems like it's going to be really
fun.
That genre's been really popular here
lately.
The group of killers, even in the movies,
you take a book like Tinian's Exquisite
Corpses,
where they drop a group of serial killers
in a small town in America.
I forgot how long they have,
but whichever serial killer comes out
you know,
as the only serial killer basically is the
winner of the game and that family wins.
So I think those are really cool concepts.
Thank you.
Um, and actually in, uh,
I actually have quite a few projects on
the docket.
I am working on a follow-up to my
first comic I've ever released,
which back in November,
a comic called Unfinished Quest.
It is a dark fantasy set in the
world of an incomplete video game where
the characters are not aware of
the broken world around them,
and they're just trying to navigate and
find their place in this incomplete mess
of a world.
Like the back side of Wreck-It Ralph.
I always said it was like the crossroads
of like Dark Souls meets Reboot if you're
aware of fine nineties Canadian animation
And so I'm making a follow-up to that,
which is basically a monster compendium.
It's essentially an art book displaying,
showing some world building of what this
game could have been.
And it's going to incorporate some, like,
meta commentary on, like,
okay, why is this video game incomplete?
What happened to the people who made it?
What happened in the plot?
What's supposed to happen?
So it's a little heady.
It's a little high concept-y,
but I'm having a lot of fun making
some spooky fantasy art.
And yeah, so that's what I've been doing.
I like it, fellas.
I like it.
But Manoj,
we'll kick it over to you one time
for the last time here.
Where can people find you on social media?
Yeah, it's mostly on Instagram,
underscore M-G-E-D-L-A.
Yeah,
I think that's the only platform I'm
active on these days.
So that's where you can reach out to
me.
Lucas?
I'm Squids McKenzie.
That is a squids with a Z at
the end.
Zed if you're on the metric system.
And you'll find me on Instagram.
And that's about it.
So all that's right now in the
description.
And when this goes live again later on,
all that stuff will be in the description
as well as the Kickstarter will also be
listed.
It is already funded.
But please go get yourself a copy because
the more money this raises,
the more money these fellas have the
opportunity to get a little in their
pocket.
So
go and support this book it's fantastic
i've had the pleasure of seeing both the
art side and also reading the synopsis to
several of the stories that are going to
be included in this anthology and i have
to say from a horror perspective you get
a flavoring of everything thinking of a
salt bay dropping the salt
on your favorite steak.
And there's a little bit of it in
there for everybody.
So please go support this book because it
is phenomenal.
But that's it for tonight, guys.
From transformation to obsession,
from science to something far more
terrifying.
This wasn't just horror.
This was creation at cost.
Ladies and gentlemen, this has been
the USDN Podcast,
where indie comics come to life.
The Council of Nerds is adjourned.
Y'all be safe out there.