Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
Lots of of dragging, dropping, repasting, making quick changes, that kind of stuff. You know? So I don't really need wireframes Mhmm. For it. And the Figma prototype at the moment, you know, its capabilities are good enough to get my point across for people that needs to give me feedback, you know.
Nick:So, you know, to to wrap up my rant Like, I don't I don't I don't don't don't need we are
Tyler:Alright. We're back.
Nick:Mhmm. Back with another episode again.
Tyler:It's it's us it's us again. Hi. Yeah.
Nick:Not really a a set topic this week. You know, not something we thought of before. We're just going to discuss anything that's happening in design currently, the design world and AI or not to AI, that kind of thing. So very curious, Tyler. What's going on in your part of the design world?
Tyler:A lot of AI, I guess, to follow the theme. Mhmm. I I was curious. I posted about this last week, and I got some good lot of engagement, I guess, on LinkedIn, where I posted that wireframes are dead, and I'm I'm tired of using them. So, essentially, what I'm what I'm starting to do is I'm trying to figure out ways to focus more like, give more time to focus on, like, the creative parts of, like, my design work.
Tyler:So, like, a lot of it is but, like, mentioned in last episode, like, 70% of my work is strategy and 30% of it is design. And because I'm working in the startup world, everything has moved super quickly. So I'm trying to find ways to automate some of, like, the low hanging fruit and spend more time on, like, the magical moments in design. So I've so I've been vibe coding a lot lately, which I found super useful, but more specifically for, like, the wireframing stage. So, essentially, we've just doing the discovery work and then creating a thing to show some clients to see for whether it's stakeholder or client to validate, like, an idea or a concept.
Tyler:So instead of creating a bunch of gray boxes and arrows, I create, like, a prototype, a working prototype, where I can share a link because I've created via Claude, and client we can record a session and have a client's gonna use it and see if it's at all useful. Got some pushback that that wireframes are useful, which they are in certain cases. But in my use case, in fintech, if I'm if I'm presenting a wireframe that's not data accurate, I lose I lose them during the conversation. So that's why I found it useful for me. I'm curious your thoughts.
Nick:Mhmm. Well, let's, you know, let's create a little bit of context first. You know, you don't have to to give any names or anything, but what's, you know, what type of company are you in? And you are talking about clients. So what type of clients does your company have?
Nick:You know? Yeah. So work for It's you know, it's there's a big difference depending on your situation whether or not a wireframe could be useful. So just curious about your context there.
Tyler:Yeah. I work for a fintech company. Essentially, we have presentation software for advisers to kinda communicate, like, future investments. So whether it's onboarding new clients and showing them what they're currently invested in versus what they're proposing or doing quarterly or yearly reviews and seeing what changes or improvements they want to make to their portfolio for, like, their financial well-being. And through that being the vehicle, there's a lot of charts, tables, and numbers.
Tyler:And when we're pitching new ideas, the the metadata that we're exposing has to be super accurate and realistic. And many times, it becomes, like, a sticking point where a graph is sometime early days, like, graph is just, a a couple lines, y x and y axis. That is not super realistic, and then conversation halts because it's like, I don't understand. This is not realistic, and it kind of halts it. But with a quick prompt in in in Claude, I'm able to, like, give it context, output something, a realistic scenario so that we can focus on the concept rather than the data that it's exposing.
Nick:Yeah. So that's because your clients, they are very knowledgeable about date data and numbers and and graphs and that kind of stuff. So, you know, if you would show it to me, I would be like, yeah. This is the here's my feedback, and I think this works here, and it doesn't work there. Blah blah blah.
Nick:But then your target audience, they know so much about the graph. They trip over, you know, a wireframe not being accurate. That's what you're saying.
Tyler:Exactly. I had a I had a session yesterday where a similar thing. So I was showing a new a new add on to our to our platform, and I showed an investment that had a too high of a return, and he was immediately stuck. Like, client invested a 100,000 and then it was paid out a 150,000 per month on a on a on a yearly basis. Like, say, what fund is this, and where can I buy it?
Tyler:Like, okay. So, like, they're like, I guess in my world, specifically, we need to have things look super realistic. In that case, it was a Figma prototype, so I didn't put in the work to make it super accurate. But my vibe coded experiments have turned out to be beneficial.
Nick:And what I'm wondering now is that, you know, that the the challenge you're you're you know, you mentioned is about the accuracy of numbers, which is not per se a wireframe problem. Like, you can have, like, a mid fidelity type wireframe with accurate numbers. Mhmm. And you've been probably working with these type of clients long enough that you know more or less the type of graph that they will accept. So in that case, does it matter if it's five coded or wireframes, you know, as long as the data is more or less okay.
Nick:Right?
Tyler:Fair. But also, like, there's some additional benefits as well. So maybe it's less relevant for maybe simple experiences, but, like, the experiences that I've been building have been complex. So, like, they're data dependent. So a couple of months ago, worked on a feature where, there's a journey which needs which has four different steps, and then we're collecting pieces of data along the way to to eventually output some charts, and a graph at the end.
Tyler:But we started with, like, discovery. Like, our users would like to expose or show the clients these set of metrics with this graph. Now we had to reverse engineer, to because to output that specific graph and those those metrics, there are some calculations that are needed, and we did we needed to collect specific inputs along the way. Right. So mapping that out for me, I guess, specifically on, like, a in in FigJam, like, in a wireframe, I'll lose track of the math.
Tyler:But I'm able to ingest or give context to to Claude to, like, here's our output, and here are the different steps that we wanna that we have. And I validate, like, based on this step, have I collected enough information to output specific metrics at the next step? Yes? No? Okay.
Tyler:No? Why not? What am I missing? Because we need this specific input to multiply by x to get to specific output. And I'm able to, like, have this partner, I guess, in crime, for lack of better word, to kind of to to guide to validate and guide me along the way.
Tyler:They're making sure that what I'm showing whatever I'm showing to the client makes sense, and it's realistic. And it's also achievable from the from the engineering point of views. I'm not stuck at that point where, like, I'm having this val this checkpoint with my engineering team, and then they're asking, like, can I do we have this information? And then my answer nowadays is yes. I'd hear here's the math.
Tyler:Here's the documentation that I've created to validate. We have this specific information, but we might have to speak to the data team to pull in these missing metrics, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. So, like, just the additional benefits to it outside of just, like, data accuracy. Of course. But that's just experience that I found so far.
Tyler:Just and I'm again, I'm early days on on experimenting with these new tools.
Nick:Well, you know, I'm I'm I'm just super excited to, you know, talk to you about actual real life usage of, you know, vibe coding, vibe designing, AI prototyping, like, whatever you want to call it. Because, what I see, you know, online is a lot of, you know, clickbait and FOMO and that kinda kinda stuff, where I'm not sure if they actually work with it themselves. I myself am using AI a lot. It's more than 90% of my AI usage is outside of design, but still helping my design. You know?
Nick:So I'm I have tons of questions for you, like well, not tons, probably, like, three at the moment. But because it's it's just so interesting to talk to someone who's actually using it. But maybe maybe first on the wireframes. Like, I I have a very strong opinion on wireframes, and I don't think they were useful at all or needed at all for the last at least five years, like, even before AI, became such a mainstream thing. And that's because, like, you know, old school traditional design tools, you know, if it's sketch or or or Figma or Framer or anything, they be they became so much better and easier to use over the last few years.
Nick:That's the this whole benefit of wireframing, you know, like, you just drag a few boxes around. It's way quicker than having to go high fidelity. You know, that I don't think that's re really a valid case anymore because of design systems and Figma and that kind of stuff. You know, for for one one of my biggest clients at the moment, also a startup, like, really early stage. Like, we're working on an an MVP now, of, a a big step forward of what the product can do.
Nick:I'm working in Figma, like, right away, and we're making, you know, high speed steps forward, getting feedback every day. And then every day, I put in one or two hours to make big improvements. Mostly possible because before this step, I've already had a couple of months of building components in Figma and colors and font choices, typography, that kind of stuff. You know, it's it's lots of of dragging, dropping, pre pasting, making quick changes, that kind of stuff. You know?
Nick:So I don't really need wireframes for it. And the Figma prototype at the moment, you know, its capabilities are good enough to get my point across for people that needs to give me feedback. You know? So, you know, to to wrap up my rant, like, I don't need wireframes at all. And I'm confused that we're still you know, we, as in the design community, we're still talking about it.
Nick:Like, it's like, just the fact that you have a I I think quite a viral post. You know, lots of engagements on wireframes. Like, we're so divided on it. And in my opinion, it's so obvious that we don't need them anymore. Yeah.
Nick:I'm not sure why we're still talking about it.
Tyler:Yeah. I don't know why we're so maybe we're just we're just we love our tools, and we're it's it's hard for us to change. But, like, I think I think the point of at least for me, maybe I'm I might miss something, but I think the point of wireframes was to focus on the feature rather than the aesthetics. And then whenever, back in the day we pushed, there was, like, delicate balance of, like, how gray were where is was our experience. Because if any hint of color, we get feedback from from clients saying, I don't really like the color.
Tyler:So it was more of, a distraction. So it's Mhmm. I think the the the process or that that step of the design stage was to validate the idea and, like, the the flow, how things worked rather than focusing on, like, the visual treatments. I think that was the benefit of it at that point. But in but in your example, working with your client, you'd mentioned that you've already completed the kind of creating the components, working on the branding so that you didn't need to kind of how did that work?
Tyler:Like, going from having the brand approved to straight into Figma designs?
Nick:Well, they already had a logo and some some color. I did a bit of tweaking around typography, you know, cleaning it all up, deciding on what to use for main titles and and smaller titles, that kind of stuff. But with them being, like, really early stage, they it was easy to get feedback and to get it approved. Like, they had, you know, two founders. One of them being a developer, and then he has a bit of development help, and then a few interns, and then me as a designer, like a founding designer or, well, after effects.
Nick:So no corporate, like, six week process of getting one color change approved. You know? It's like, yeah. I like this, and here's my feedback. And then I make a new version, and then at some point, it was ready to go.
Nick:But then at the same time, like, it's not finished. Like, if if you look at the current state of the the the branding, it's different compared to two months ago. And in two months' time, there will be some improvements or changes at least, as well. So that's, you know, I think startup mentality. You know, it's improve on the go, work ship, get feedback, repeat.
Nick:And then that's just a startup. And if you look at a corporation, they have something in place already as well. There's no corporation without a logo, without a name, without a current website. Like, it's just too big. They at least have something even though it's even if it's just a template or whatever, like something generic.
Nick:I have I've always believed that point as well of the the black and white versus color, you just to not get distracted by aesthetics. You know, the the what color could we use here is a way better question than I don't like this purple. Why is this purple?
Tyler:Absolutely.
Nick:At the same time, in my ten years of being a designer on the job, ten years of working experience, I have done a lot of wireframing, also working with clients on wireframing, and they they never worked. It's it's the the the we're not talking about this, but we're talking about debts, like debt argument. It never happens. Yeah. They always ask me like, well, but, you know, it it doesn't really connect with them because it's Yeah.
Nick:Because it's black and white and low fidelity. There's such a disconnect between that and how they envision it themselves that it's always me explaining like, no, no, that's a wireframe. Yeah. Yeah. I'll add the shadow later.
Nick:Yes. Your logo will be there, you know? And perhaps this is the the the moment we will get our first online hate or trolls, and they will say, like, well, that's you because you're a shitty designer. Of I don't think so. I I I've been in so many different roles from startups to multi billion core revenue corporations in different types of roles.
Nick:Wireframes have never worked for me, and they're not as quick as people say they are. And I just feel like that's, you know, outdated design education that's still trying to, you know, survive in this this day and age.
Tyler:Yeah. I think it was along this it's it's on the same line of, like, people back in the day convincing me that drawing than using paper with a pencil to draw wireframes was useful at all. It was waste of paper I found. I'm like, okay. Now I have to recreate this on my computer now.
Nick:Mhmm. Yeah. You know what? Maybe just for for for, like, like, a minute just to unlock my brain. If I have a few thoughts, it's like a quick thirty second, sixty second scribble to, like, oh, yeah.
Nick:Yeah. Let's let's try that. And then it's moving over to the design tool or prompting tool of choice to to get going. Yeah. Starting with pen and paper was such a a cool hipster thing to say in 2015, I guess.
Tyler:Yeah. And also, like, more specifically, paper paper prototyping. Have you tried? Remember when that was a bit craze?
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I I I went to university to learn more about design from 2011 until 2015, and I've had paper prototyping lessons.
Tyler:Yes.
Nick:And that's the last time I used it.
Tyler:Yeah. Not not useful to have a user interview where it's like, okay. Imagine you'd click this with your finger and then this. Is very Yeah.
Nick:And then you're there being nervous, fumbling with your stack of paper to find the right screen that you're going to, and then it's just a big mess. We had cheaters on our programming tests in university too, and then the solution from the school was that we had to write our code on paper instead of on a computer, which was I mean, imagine writing a JavaScript on paper with brackets and and that kind of stuff.
Tyler:I mean, it's one way to learn. I mean Yeah. If you're doing it by hand, that means you absolutely know how it works.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Well, maybe it's helped me today. You know, the we talked about this before. Like, my prior programming knowledge really helps me validate AI output to see if it's spaghetti code or not.
Nick:Yeah. But yeah. So you know, what what I what I also think, like, we're quite you know, I think we we more or less agree on wireframes that it's, you know, it's maybe it's best time is behind it. But I think it's also useful in any situation where you're really convinced about something to try and switch seats. Like, if you really take a look at the arguments from wireframing people, you know, like, what do they say, and could they could they be right?
Nick:Like, are we wrong? So I'm not sure if you recall any comments from your post.
Tyler:I don't want
Nick:to put you on the spot, but
Tyler:I No. And I
Nick:that comes to mind. Like, what did they say in the pro
Tyler:The only argument camp. The only argument that I'll accept, I'll still put back on it, but because I also had this conversation internally with one of my team members about this. Like, I'm curious what you think about the idea of wireframings. Was the fact that we've been doing design for quite a long time, so we Yeah. We understand the process.
Tyler:But for junior designers who are not totally familiar with the process, having the wireframe step for them to, like, creating the inputs, creating the frames as an exercise to get more familiar with, like, the development process is the only argument that I'll I'll have. Yeah. Yeah. Which is which is fair. Meaning, like, it's the same idea with, like, using cursor and and you're you have never touched the stitch of code.
Tyler:If it's outputting things you don't understand, then there's some background. Like, to your point, you have a developer background, so you have a better idea of what it's outputting. So it's probably similar for creating those gray boxes, which is I'll accept kind of, but I think you can still there's you can still use other tools to learn what you need to learn at that specific stage regardless of your seniority.
Nick:Yeah. I I yeah. I can really see that that argument, the the the reason what they're saying, to learn something. Maybe it's good for a junior designer to not focus on aesthetics right away, focus on structure and layout, typography, gestalt, all that all the the good stuff, the the classic design theory. But then again, that it doesn't have to be a wireframe.
Nick:It can be black and white, high fidelity as well. So maybe the the line between the when you go from wireframe to not not a wireframe is quite blurry. Like, does it have you know, is it boxes only? Can it be high fidelity, but no color, no animation, no shadows? You know?
Nick:So that's that's a bit, you know, tricky. But but yeah. But I I can see it. And one thing that's I don't have an answer to yet is does it matter? Like, do you need to understand the output of, your AI work?
Nick:Like, do you need to see if it's valid design theory wise? I hope the answer is yes. I'm clinging on to really keep it on yes because, you know, with our experience and knowledge, like, have a lot of it, and that's a way for us, you know, you and me to to stand out from the crowd. But at some point, if it doesn't matter anymore, if AI becomes as good as it does that it doesn't matter, Well and then the answer is no, and that really sucks for us. But I don't think it's going to go there.
Nick:I don't think it will go that far. I don't see it happening at least. But that's the big question. Like, do you still need a lot of knowledge on any topic?
Tyler:Think yeah. I think base well, this I think this goes back to, like, the conversation of, like, are you should you be a generalist or or a specific person who's good at a specific thing? I think if you have I think it's good to have base level knowledge or foundational knowledge on this whatever specific field it is, and then you can use that AI tool to get to a specific place because you have a bit of context. I don't think it's gonna get to like, I don't think it's gonna get to a point where you don't need to have any knowledge whatsoever. Mhmm.
Tyler:Or at least if a person if you have no knowledge using a tool versus someone who has a decent knowledge, I think the person with a decent knowledge is gonna outperform the first person every single time.
Nick:Yeah. I think so too. Then to to keep this existential crisis going a little bit is does it matter for your client who isn't a designer?
Tyler:It doesn't. One
Nick:of my other half Canadian clients is I talked about him of with him about his product and the work we were doing together. And it turns out I hardly do any UI work for him because the things he can generate are good enough. So I asked him I asked him, like, do do you do you think it would benefit your business if well well, let's go one let's go back one step first. Like, the things he generates is a six out of 10 score quality wise. So I asked him, does it do you think it will benefit your business?
Nick:You know, more people signing up, better user retention, blah blah blah. If I would spend, you know, quite a bit of time turning the six out of 10 into an eight out of 10. And he wasn't sure. He you know, I I we kind of agreed on it not really met being that important for him for his type of of work. So in that case, like, he doesn't need a designer, but at the same time, he is a very skilled developer.
Nick:So he probably knows how he can use AI to get a six out of 10 design website ready. You know? So, yeah, that really hurts our initial point of, you know, a skilled user is going to get better output than a not not skilled user.
Tyler:Yeah. I think that's I think that's what's also scary for, like, junior designers getting into industry. Like, if if anyone can get a six out of 10 Yeah. Like like, it's harder for for kind of juniors or people who are just getting in the industry to kind of compete. Right?
Tyler:Yeah. Versus people who are more seasoned can get it. Like, six out of 10 is, like, six out of 10 is baseline. We can get it to eight to 10 out of 10. That's I think that's where someone might be concerned because mediocrity isn't good enough anymore.
Tyler:Think that's that's table stakes.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. True. I have you know, you you talk about junior designers. I have maybe two things to share in that regard.
Nick:Kurish, what do you think about this? You know, first of all, I'm I'm I feel for junior people in any tech role Yeah. You know, with AI doing so much, you know, entry level stuff. Like, it's really hard for them to to get a foot in the door, you know, to get to get their place, their first place. At the same time, it's been hard to get your first job as long as I can remember.
Nick:You know? My first it it took me eight months of applying for jobs to get my first job when I came fresh out of school. And then once I had that first job, like, jobs, they they got acquired, and then there wasn't room anymore for quite a few people, including myself because I was one of the latest joiners. So it's easier to get rid of me, blah blah blah. But because I had that one year of experience, the next time I started looking for a job, it only took me two months instead of eight.
Nick:And then the time after, you know, one month, and then, you know, it it became easier and easier to get work. So my point is, like, it it's always been hard to get your first job. And second point, it's also easier than ever to get your first job, which is quite the you know, it's the contrast is quite high because I feel like AI is making a lot of people a bit lazy, you know, the the the obvious AI cover letter, that kind of stuff, full of typos and, you know, just creating a a handwritten cover letter or just 10% a 10% better portfolio puts you in the top 5% of all applicants right away. You know? So that duality, I think, is really interesting for junior people.
Nick:Like, it's harder than ever, perhaps, or it's always been hard, but it's also easier than ever. Maybe that's just super confusing for them.
Tyler:Yeah. I think I think I think you're totally right there. I think it comes down to effort. I think advice for any universe is just work super work super hard. Show up every day, be consistent, and then you'll yes.
Tyler:To your point, I think it's always been hard to find your first job. It's like everyone's asking for three plus years experience. And if you have none, what can you contribute? So that part is a grind. But after after you you land in that first job, it's all downhill from there.
Tyler:Well, in a positive way, meaning meaning it's it's ease it's easier. It'll be easier afterwards. Plus, it's easy. It's like it's it's easier to create your own, like, projects now. Like, if you if you're in that eight months period where you're applying, start your own project.
Tyler:That can be a real thing that you ship. True. It it's so easy to be to I know, like, being an entrepreneur is is is like a it's a catchphrase now, but, like, we have the tools that are available now for for everyone to gain access to and and specific it's lead for for junior designers to, like, create and ship a thing. Like, you get you get to do things end to end versus, like, tip typically, at when you when you start in your junior role, you're you get to handle your responsibilities are this small. And as you kind of scale up, you you can but you can start off, like, doing end to end stuff and then shipping a thing.
Tyler:It doesn't it can be a three out of out of 10, but you've you went through the entire process of of of designing, building, and shipping a thing that you can hand to someone, and they could potentially buy it.
Nick:Yeah. True. It doesn't have to be something to buy even if it's just a, you know, a little snippet from your website, you know, just to show people that you're you know, you have that entrepreneurial spirit, perhaps. But more importantly, you will get feedback and you'll learn. People have something to say about the thing you made, and it might hurt your feelings, and you will learn to how to handle it and how to perhaps counter that feedback because the feedback's wrong or you can make a new version that's better.
Nick:You know? So, yeah, that there's a lot of benefit there, but I think the main challenge for junior designer is is guidance. You know, I feel like boots boot camps and most design education is outdated, you know, teaching you double diamonds and design thinking, and let's spend weeks on talking to people without doing anything. Know, without doing anything, you're you're doing a lot, of course, in in research, but without any output for a client to see. Like, you know, hey.
Nick:Where's my website? I don't see anything yet. That kind of stuff. Anyways, it's it's hard to know what to do and in what order to do anything. I think only, like, 0.1% of all people looking to get into design are, like, gifted somehow that they exactly know what to do from day one.
Nick:I know I'm not part of that 0.1%. It took me, you know, years to to to have that wait a minute moment. You know? And perhaps design education is a bit broken that way.
Tyler:Yeah. I think so. Like like we said before, learn 10% of what we need to do in school. The rest is, like, on the job, fumbling around, getting, like, guidance from, like, your peers at the time or your manager, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Yeah.
Tyler:So it's hard to, like sometimes I've seen a lot of people, even outside of design, just being obsessed with the education piece. Like, I'm I'm just I don't know everything yet, so I'm gonna take another course. I'm gonna take this. But it's like, at some point, apply it.
Nick:Mhmm. Yeah. I think so. But that's also because it's scary to apply it. Because when it when you try and apply it, you will figure out if you can do it, and people can have opinions about you, and that's scary.
Nick:You know, people might not like it, or you might not be able to do it. Then what? You know?
Tyler:Well, I think we've gone through that that journey. I think the first thing we've designed and and and handed over like a like a school paper, please, is is this good enough? I think that's the theme of early in our career is, like, is this good enough? Yes. It's, like, constantly searching for that approval.
Tyler:But after a while, getting rejected hundreds, if not thousands of times, I think Mhmm. You either gain the shell that protects you from that piece of feedback or just a better understanding that it's a necessary part of the process and not to take it personally.
Nick:True. Yeah. That that that's one of the main reasons why I decided to to have just have the whatever version as version one out the door as quickly as possible. You know? Because you already know that it's not complete.
Nick:You know that there are there are going to be unknown unknowns that you only discover when you show it to users or stakeholder. So, sure, it's not pixel perfect. The data is, you know, good enough that we show, and a few edge cases aren't thought of. And that's fine because when you show it to your stakeholder, then they will be very angry like, oh, wait a minute. You didn't think about that edge case.
Nick:Blah blah blah. And then, oh, okay. Well, then you have your feedback, and you can work on it for a much better version too. Makes it yeah.
Tyler:I think that's a better strategy than waiting till you have this perfect thing. But if you can quickly show them a thing then they can give that Then they can you can it's it's a conversation facilitator at the end of the day. It's like, here's it's you're you're taught you are you're engaging with a client. They have an idea or they have an improvement they wanna do. They often don't have like, can picture things in their head as well as we do, so they need something for reference.
Tyler:How True. Regardless of how what the fidelity of of that thing is. Mhmm.
Nick:Yeah. Well, that that you know, I I really like what you're saying there. Like, it doesn't matter what the fidelity is. So if if that's the case, if it doesn't matter how polished it is, why are we silly designers then still arguing about tools and wireframing? Yes or no?
Nick:Wouldn't we be better off talking about how to be a better accelerator and facilitator for our clients to become better as a as a whole job, as a whole, what's the word, you know, field.
Tyler:Yeah. It's it's that's true. It's because it's that pesky word designer as part of our our our name. It's like we're we're holding to, like, where there needs to be some kind of design thing that we deliver. But, like, it's true.
Tyler:Like, what we're doing is just having conversations, and then we're the goal is to deliver something, again, like, that's production ready or that it's a useful tool for a client or a website, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. The tools that we get, like, has changed so much over the days. Yeah. We're not we're not building websites using tables anymore. That was fun, though.
Nick:Mhmm. Oh, yeah.
Tyler:But, like, this this the tools that we use change, and then the output is the same. It's just Yeah. Happy clients and happy product that we give them.
Nick:Mhmm. True. Do do you like, I know you write a lot on social media design related. Do you also read a lot of content from the design communities on, let's say, Twitter, LinkedIn, but also Reddit?
Tyler:Not on Red on LinkedIn, I'll read. I'm more of, like, a, like, a passive consumer on YouTube. So, like, I'll go I'll put my I'll find a video that's interesting, and then I'll have autoplay, and then I'll find recommended videos for me. I'm very much into, like, not designer specific, but, like, indie hackers or, like, just builders who, like, who are who are leveraging these tools and building quickly, and new ways to build certain products, like, regardless of, like, their background, which is very interesting to me. So it's, that's the the kind of the research that I'm doing now.
Tyler:It's just understanding, like, the the entrepreneurial journey that, like, the business side of, like, creating a thing and shipping it. Right. Whether that's marketing, whether that's, like, sales techniques, like, how to, like, how to pitch ideas, things that just, like, would strengthen any designer out of outside of the things that we normally do on a day to day.
Nick:Right. Yeah. I know whether that's smart to look with, you know, to look for content that's design adjacent instead of purely design. The reason I'm I'm asking is because I feel like there's a big difference in overall sentiment with the you know, based on the platforms you're on. Like, x slash Twitter has a lot of what you're saying, you know, entrepreneurial design founders, design studio owners, that kind of stuff.
Nick:LinkedIn is, I feel, more middle of the road. Like, it's a little bit of everything, but especially Reddit. Reddit can be if you look at the the different design communities there, it can be very I don't want to say pessimistic, but there's a lot more content on I've applied hundreds of times. Nothing's happening. The market is broken.
Nick:Look at these job requirements. How can they ask us to do this? But also, which I think is quite sad, a lot of people, they don't want to or unsure if they should pursue design as a career because of the stuff they're reading. Like, hey. Is it even like, can I even succeed based on what I'm reading here?
Nick:Like, isn't the market too saturated? You know, me being the the positive person that I am. You know? It's that that makes me a bit sad that, you know, I hope social media content, content we create, you and I here, is motivating and and and positive and and authentic, but not something that would put some people into so much doubt that they are not sure if they should pursue a career that they're interested in.
Tyler:Yeah. That's interesting because I I haven't delved into Reddit. It seems like a magical place that might be more darker than most. But, like, is Reddit more anonymous than it is? Like, could you have, like, a profile that people can go with your with your photo that has information about you, or is it more of, like, a place where you can be anonymous?
Tyler:There's, like, random I feel like there's more random usernames.
Nick:It is. Yeah. It is. But you could be very, you know, open. You could have a a Tyler White, like, one word, small letters with links to your LinkedIn and Twitter and and websites.
Nick:You you could have it on your profile, but you could also be called, you know, waterslide enthusiast twelve. I don't know. I'm just looking at a my my my computer background is a picture of my daughter on the slide. So I'm like, hey. Water slide twelve as a username.
Nick:Super random. You know, you could be super anonymous and random and, yeah, be a troll or a anonymous helper. Like, you could be a superhero for some people. So, yeah, it's more anonymous.
Tyler:That might be an indicator where, like, people are able to be more free and and, I guess, complain more versus, I guess, on LinkedIn, it's your professional. It's tied to to you as a person, so, you better be happy all the time. Not to say that everyone's happy happy on LinkedIn.
Nick:It's more correct. Perhaps it's more because your employers future employers and clients, they're all there too. So you have to be more thankful and politically correct about how you
Tyler:Maybe.
Nick:Talk about stuff. You know, we we talked about this before, like, on on Reddit. I I I think you said it. Like, you have posts that go viral or nothing happens. Like, there's no in between.
Nick:I have the same on on Reddit. Like, I I try to answer quite a few questions in the design subreddits over there. I add either gets, like, 50 or a 100 upvotes or I get 20 downvotes. But regardless of the upvotes or downvotes, it's all meant to be helpful and educational, really, to to answer a question. But I think it's really close to what you with your wireframing post.
Nick:Like, when you hit a nerve, when you try to be helpful, but it doesn't align with one of, like, the main beliefs we as a design field have, then you will get downvoted, like, all the way to whatever place. You know? It's it's lots of downvotes. And it might be true. Like, it might be my experience how it really happens in real life, but it doesn't matter.
Nick:Like, if the majority doesn't believe it, then you still get the downvotes. And I think that's the perhaps the main, you know, challenge or issue over there. Because of it, people get
Tyler:Downvote is Yeah. A downvote seems very like, it's an implicit that I don't like the thing, which doesn't exist. I think they've removed the downvote from Instagram From YouTube. You to YouTube. LinkedIn, it's just like, what type of praise you wanna send me?
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:Yeah. The only the only negativity you'll get is in the comments. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.
Tyler:Maybe that's just part of, like, that world. Get down real quick.
Nick:Your point. Yeah. I I I didn't I I know it's removed from lots of different places, but I forgot that, you know, Reddit is perhaps the only place where you can still downvote. You know, the the the the my my my best downvote that I ever had was about I I you know, I take maybe I even take a bit of pride from it. Like, this is my best most downvoted post.
Tyler:The way you said that was Yeah. Yeah. Was priceless.
Nick:It's it's I'm I'm yeah. Well, I mean, we're kidding around a little bit, but it it was about my developer colleague asks me how I will hand over my design in code. How can that even be? And then everyone like, there were, I think, 30 comments, and only one person had downvotes, that was me because I was the only one that said, like, well, I deliver my designs in code all the time, and here's what how it works. And I think if you want to stand out, you should try it as well because I see more and more clients ask me for it.
Nick:And then, yeah, then it then it went down the run, you know, off the rails really quickly. And I was really confused because I was like, well, I'm trying to be helpful here, trying to help this person, you know, with this question and perhaps help him get a few more clients, but it wasn't appreciated. It's just like it's not appreciated, I think, within the design community to talk about skipping wireframes altogether. Mhmm.
Tyler:Yeah. But I think Reddit sounds like a place where you can get some unfiltered feedback, which it which sounds great regardless of the downspout perception. Like, you can get the feedback that you want and just you take it to heart, or you just take it as, like Yeah. Feedback that you can use to get better.
Nick:True. Well, that's, you know, that's what I really value about it. Like, I like the honesty, you know, the the Dutch directness. That's part of my Dutch upbringing. But, like, I like you said in the beginning, like, it's really important when you really believe something to also really take the opposite view super seriously.
Nick:So I read all those comments in that post that we're talking about to also learn about why people think we shouldn't deliver in code, you know, because there's always the the the option that we are wrong about things. You know? And so it's always good to learn. Like, if you only look at people that agree with you, or you if you only speak to them, you will end up in some sort of bubble or an echo chamber, which I don't think is a healthy thing to be in, you know, career wise at all. So I don't mind the downvotes.
Nick:It it just points my attention to something I said, it makes me think like, hey. Wait a minute. There's something happening there. Maybe I was wrong or people don't like what I said or what's happening there, and then I'm trying to learn from it. You know?
Nick:And I think that's that's perhaps also the power of Reddit.
Tyler:I think you're showing your true spirit as a designer to taking taking that feedback, not the heart.
Nick:Yeah. True. True. True. Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I I'm, of course, more happy with, you know, the the upvotes, not because it grows your account or anything. I don't care about it. But if that means people found it helpful, you know, then I'm I'm happy I was able to to comment on it.
Nick:You know? I just try to help a lot of people in the design community, and that's something I really enjoy.
Tyler:Yeah. I might have to delve into the new this new space. Get get a couple of downvotes on the way.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Well, that that that will happen. That it really depends on your on the community you're in. It's also for some games I play, and then when you ask a question on Reddit, you get so many helpful comments.
Nick:But then for another game, when you ask the same, you know, beginner type question, you get a lot of sarcasm. You know? So it really depends on the the the community. Fair.
Tyler:Totally fair.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Alright.
Nick:So we're we're talking we've been talking this whole episode about wireframes mostly, you know, even though at some point we said, like, why are we even talking about wireframes? So that's
Tyler:And now we're talking about it even more.
Nick:Yeah. We're now we're we're really full circle on it.
Tyler:Well, wasn't the main topic, but it became I guess we just went down the rabbit hole. Yeah. Same way we went down the rabbit hole.
Nick:Yeah. Well, that's, you know, and, you know, that's the that's the fun thing about not having a set topic before we start this this recording. You know? We'll just see what happens and wireframes happens, which is,
Tyler:you know Which is the quote of
Nick:the episode, I think. Yeah. Wireframes happened. Yeah. It's it's it's you know, just the fact that we're talking about it now and still are means that it's so deeply in our d in design designers DNA that it's just going to stick with us forever and that we will still talk about low or high fidelity in five years.
Tyler:Hope not.
Nick:Alright. Anything else on on the list? Anything you forgot to say or any closing remarks perhaps?
Tyler:I like this episode. I like the no topic episode. Oh, it's just refreshing. I think we're gonna do more of these every once in a while, and we'll see where the conversation I think we both have lots to speak about, and I like where this conversation sometimes goes.
Nick:What what do you think about and, you know, this is just podcast building in public with this being recorded still. You know, what do you think about letting our audience ask questions? And then, you know, you and I tackling a question like that or perhaps, you know, as a part of an episode or spending a full episode like this based on some sort of intriguing question that we had.
Tyler:Well, that's interesting. I'm down for that. Yeah. If our if our audience sends a bunch of questions, spend a full episode just answering them off the cuff. Yeah.
Tyler:We won't look at them beforehand. That'd be great.
Nick:Yeah. And and that's even better. No preparation. Just on the spot speed answering, like, go. Go.
Nick:Go. Go. Well, then that should be our our call to action, and I think for this episode is to to really open the door for people to ask us questions, which I guess the best way to do is to comment depending on the place you're listening, right, on YouTube. If you're listening on Spotify and Apple Podcast, perhaps include the question in a review. You know?
Nick:Five stars plus question. Know? See what I did there? Nice one. Because because I don't think you can leave comments on those platforms on individual episodes.
Nick:So review plus question, and then we will we will really do do our best to answer those questions.
Tyler:Yeah. Send in your comments. I'm looking forward to that episode.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's going to be really cool. And then in the meantime, because we we were giving people some time to put in questions and for us to collect all of them, we will talk the next time about what we call the the design job title bingo. Right?
Tyler:Yes. UI UX design web design slash Yeah. Whatever else we have on on on docket. Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. Just just to put in one fun thing about that episode is that I went for an intake for a project somewhere, and the person I was talking to had UX champion as a title on his door. Legend. Office office, like his his office door. It was like name, subtitle, UX champion.
Tyler:Absolute legend. I wanna meet that guy. Yeah.
Nick:Well, you'll you'll figure out how it went and my experience there in the next episode. Very nice evening. Yep. Hopefully, I'll see you all then.
Tyler:Alright. Till next time. That was a great episode. So if you like this content and wanna hear more, please like and subscribe.
Nick:Yeah. And if you want to see more, please go to designtablepodcast.com, Spotify, Apple Music, all the big players, and more.