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Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
One of my big breaks was, like, reaching out to someone who was, like, building in public, like, trying different things and kinda struggling. And he had the of those, like, what do you like, a or b type posts. He was like, hey. I have this version a. I have this version b.
Nick:What do you think? And then the comment section was full of designers saying like, well, you need a. And some were like, yeah, they should no, no, no. B. B is way better.
Nick:Mhmm. But I I send a direct message to this person like, oh, you know, you should actually go for c. Here's what it looks like. And that made an impression and I And you're officially live. We're officially live exactly.
Nick:I mean, this is just an experiment.
Tyler:Alright. Hey, Nick. We're back at it for another Design Table Podcast episode.
Nick:Oh, yeah. It's the highlight of my week.
Tyler:Same. I'm looking forward to I always love kinda kicking this off. I have a little schedule. I kind of wake my kid up a bit earlier, he pays the brunt of the the load of getting up early to report these sessions. Like, get up.
Tyler:You're going to school early. You'll be you'll be the third person in school.
Nick:Oh, nice.
Tyler:So then I get to talk to my big man, Nick.
Nick:Yeah. Well well, here I am. No pressure. You know, I remember, and I I see many people have the same same thing still, is that circle. I'm sure you've been in it before, is to get a job, you need experience.
Nick:And to get experience, you need a job. You know, that circle, it's so hard to break out of. And all the advice you see online is that the same old broken record of yeah. I mean, just look at a famous website and redesign it and, you know, talk about how you made it better. But then it's not really better because you don't have the context of blah blah blah.
Nick:Let's see if we can figure out what actually helps to break that circle and, you know, get a job without experience.
Tyler:Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna go to ye old faithful, and I'll say that at the beginning, you may have to do some free work. And that means, like, the problem with like everyone loves if like if someone came to my door and then say, hey, I wanna rake your lawn for free. Would you mind? I'll say, of course, go ahead.
Tyler:So I think the same applies to when you're first starting out. Like and that could look like going up to your local coffee shop or flower shop saying, hey, I've taken a look at your website. I do this for a living. I'm offering free redesigns to my first three clients in exchange for testimonials. Are you open to it?
Tyler:Yeah. Like, you can be as transparent as you want. These these are the things that I need. I'm starting off my new my new business. I would love to, in exchange for this free work, a testimonial.
Tyler:How do you think? Yeah. And then from there, do the best work possible, best customer service, making sure your client's goals are met. And in the end, you have the proof down on paper with a testimonial that you can actually do the work, which gets you a leg a leg up above above the rest.
Nick:Yep. Yeah. It's how I started, at least. Not really on purpose. Like, it's not like I had this this floating Tyler hat tell me as a junior designer, like, go offer your services for free.
Nick:But coincidentally, it it is the thing that worked for me. Just, you know, two music groups and the local pizza place were my first projects.
Tyler:Yeah. I think, like, just like, you have there's no other choice, and there's less friction to the I work for free. Probably even a level up above that is the the intern. So, like, part of that is applying and going through through the process, which is also, like, a great option, but, like, offering your service for free and working on it. And it it's like that that that's just like the the typical freelancer.
Tyler:Hey. I'm I'm doing my cold outreach. I'm doing my pitch for my free work, and I'm gonna execute it. Like, starting out, like, that is great just because you have the, like, the entrepreneurial mindset. Like, you are not just doing the work, you're doing the customer service, you're you're doing the financing, you're doing all of it, which which which doubles the exposure or even triples the exposure of, what it takes to be a successful designer.
Tyler:Because you're not just focusing on the craft, you're focusing on on, like, collaboration, facilitation, all that stuff.
Nick:Mhmm. You know, some people might say, like, okay. Yeah. But that's for freelancing. But what if I want an in house job?
Nick:But it probably applies to that kind of work as well. Right?
Tyler:It translates. It it shows and it's also part of the pitch also. Like, hey. This is I'm applying to you. What experience you have?
Tyler:Well, I I I just graduated or I just finished this boot camp where I've transitioned into product design. I decided that I really wanted to get experience before applying here. I did a couple of free jobs. Here are here's the results. Here they're in my case studies or in my portfolio.
Tyler:And here are some testimonials that came along with it. I think it it translates, like, super well.
Nick:I think so. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. You're basically some sort of freelancer, like, house as well.
Nick:Like, you still have to sell yourself and then make sure people know who you are and then make sure people come to you for Design Help, that kind of thing. You know, it's it's more of an inside market versus an outside market.
Tyler:Yeah. And it probably even translates better for in house because, like, if I'm if I'm a hiring manager looking into, like, this person was very entrepreneurial. They did this project. They they only they they handled the the execution, but like collaborating with the the business owner, like, I want that person on my team.
Nick:Mhmm. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. I think you mentioned communication at at some point, but one thing I like, I watched a a video just this weekend by Dan Mall.
Nick:Not sure if you've heard of Dan Mall. He like, he said, like, I don't want to say influencer because that you have this risk of people, you know, seeing it as a negative thing. But, like, he's a very experienced designer and he was sold this agency, and now he's, like, coaching and and helping people with or helping designers with sales and that kind of stuff. He gets a ton of people doing the thing you just recommended, like reaching out, like offering services for free. And he made, like, a, like, a ten minute video explaining his thoughts and how it appears helpful, but actually isn't in his his view at least.
Nick:Because it's it's it looks like you are offering your services, but what you're basically doing is asking the other guy for his services. And then he he wrote about how your message your cold outreach should be like a love letter, and and it's very insightful, really helpful. So I I think, you know, if you reach out to people, like, if you go through local shops and and offer your services, don't make it sound like a lot of work. Like, don't don't make it sound like you have to be held by the hand. Like, make make it appear like you know what you're doing.
Nick:Make it look like you're a breeze to work with. Actually, be a breeze to work with. And don't come across as as desperate. Like, oh, man. Hello, sir.
Nick:I I really need your help. Please, intern. Like, I need to feed my children. Know, that people just they they don't like that kind of outreach, you know, because it feels like they have to do a lot of work. You know?
Nick:So, yeah, I recommend watching Dan's video on that. Think it's very it was a big eye opener for me at least.
Tyler:Dan's been around for a long time, so he knows his stuff. Like, I I greenlit that that support there.
Nick:Yeah. Something else I wanted to say. You can all you should also look online for, like, nondesigners who need design help. Like, my one of my big breaks was, like, reaching out to someone who was, like, building in public, like, trying different things and kinda struggling. And he had one of those, like, what do you like, a or b type posts.
Nick:Like, not the engagement version, you know, by designers, but, like, really authentic business owner who tried to create his own stuff. He was like, hey. I have this version a. I have this version b. You know, what do you think?
Nick:And then the comment section was full of designers saying like, well, you need a. And some were like, yeah, they should no. No. No. B.
Nick:B is way better. Mhmm. But I I sent a a direct message to this person like, oh, you you should actually go for c. Here's what it looks like. And that made an impression, and I sold, like, a small design package, like, small design project to him.
Nick:You know? But that's that's how far far it went. Like, I was hoping for more work, but it it stayed a small project. But still, you know, answering the a or b question with how about c is very impressive for a lot of people.
Tyler:As in yeah. It's smart. And it's like it's what you need because, like, you communicated that, like, you're you're thinking a bit above, like Mhmm. What he was offering, which is like, I have two of these two different solutions. Which one should I take?
Tyler:Yeah. Yours is probably more insightful because you saw beyond the problem that he was the surface level problem that he was showing.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I've I've I mean, I've been thinking about this more and more recently is is the the don't make me think, like the really the classic book. We tend to forget that it applies to everyone. Like, if you if I tell you like, hey, Tiger, I'm going to build your website, and you you probably have a ton of questions.
Nick:Like, oh, now how does that work? What what does build mean? Is that branding, design, and building or just building? And if it's just building, you know, I could ramble on for minutes with all the questions that I have. But if you're really specific about your answer and say, like, you should go for option c.
Nick:It's the best. Here's what it looks like because reasons. Like, all all you have to say is yes or no. You know, you don't have to think about it. You don't make me think applies in your communication with clients and leads as well.
Nick:And that was more or less also the the conclusion of Dan Dan's video. You know, it's it's it's just it appears friendly. You are probably friendly, but it's it's not as clear as what you're asking as what what you think you're asking. It's it's it's too fake. Yeah.
Nick:So good communication makes you top 10% of candidates right away.
Tyler:I also I also seen a strategy that works really well. It requires a bit more upfront work, but the conversion is a bit higher. I've seen people with strategies to build the website before attached to the request. So if you're this works probably for, like, local business like plumbers, HVAC, like, just like home services stuff where, like, their their websites are generally terrible.
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:And they're pretty cookie cutter. But if you can with tools like Clot and they could just kind of quickly turn those around, And then your offer or your pitch is rather, hey, I took a look at your business. I I have there's some opportunities to to add for an upgrade. I built this website for you. Do you want it?
Tyler:I'll give it to you for x amount of dollars in in exchange for whatever it is. Testimony too. And then like for a business owner like, oh, so it's done? Which means the turnaround is gonna be quick. It's what's left to do is probably some nitpicky stuff like contact information, connecting a form here and there, and then setting up the hosting or or replacing what's there.
Tyler:The turnaround is quicker. And you can probably charge a premium because of the the time to value there.
Nick:Yeah. And and you can also do the clever way of you know, the thing you're showing is it's like 80% done. You know, it's it's it's a big improvement on what they have, but it's it probably makes them want more. And I think, oh, you know, how about we go to a 100% next? And then you're like, well, yeah.
Nick:I mean, that's something we could do. But I think that's about, you know, x amount of budget that we need for that.
Tyler:Also, can add that urgency also. Like, I'm I'm only doing this to like, limited supply. I'm this to everyone, but if I only have capacity for five of these this month. I see So limited time offer.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. 12 people are looking at this room too. Well. Yeah.
Nick:I mean, that that's it's so annoying when you go to a website and you have this, you know, 1,200 times viewed today. It just feels like this business owner purchased a a plugin somewhere that randomizes a number just to make you you know, to scheme you into buying something. Anyway, that being said, there's another thing, but I lost my train of thought because of the the it's the baby brain stuff happening again. Know, I'm I'm I'm just so sleepy. Yeah.
Nick:Do do you have anything else in mind? Because it it will come to me, I'm I'm sure. It was a great advice.
Tyler:The free aspect just it is really like I know we all wanna be paid for our work that blah blah blah blah. Sob story. Sob story. But like, the free thing is is so good. Like, I I know the I saw this this TV show, but, like, I I think the strategy still rings true.
Tyler:It was an episode I think it was like a drama show where it was some kind of law firm that they were looking to hire an assistant, and they were going through the hiring phase. And one of the applicants saying was saying, I'd say, listen. I don't have a resume, but I'm the best person. You should should pick me. And the the pitch was, you're hiring anyway anyways.
Tyler:You need to fill a position. How I'll do the job right now for free until you you find the person, but I'll tell you what, I guarantee you'll love my work so much that you're gonna end up keeping me. And I just And then
Nick:make it face at the end.
Tyler:Yeah. Exactly. And then, like, it was overdramatized. Like, they had to find they're they're getting a lot of complaints from like a like a like an owner of some kind of some building, and they had to find people who were were weren't doing so well or they're being overcharged. And then she was able to kind of source, like, 60 people with testimonials that'll help that court case.
Tyler:Then we I mean, it's a bit extra, but, like, the lesson there is the the opening is that you're doing free work. The reason why they keep you is the work that you deliver during that period. Right.
Nick:Yeah. Before we continue, if you're feeling stuck in your design career or if you feel like you're doing solid work while no one really notices, we've got a bunch of extra stuff on our website.
Tyler:We're building a community for product designers to actually learn, grow, and get hired, not just scroll and collect more inspiration.
Nick:There's also articles, checklists, and courses,
Tyler:all based on real world experience from both of us. No fluff, just what actually works.
Nick:Check out designtablepodcast.com. The link is in the description. Yeah. I mean, I I think that's that's really a ballsy move. I wonder how much of that works in in real life too.
Nick:I did I did something similar where a company was looking for a new designer in house, but I was only doing freelance work. Like really early days in my freelance career, they they asked me if I wanted to join their company. I was like, no. I'm a freelancer. However, I'm willing to help you until you find someone.
Nick:You know? And then we we kept working together for months. And I still don't know if that's because they couldn't find anyone or because they, you know, liked my work enough to put the the search for a new designer in house on a on a lower priority. You know? Because there's still design needs, urgent design needs that you can help them with, like, in between.
Tyler:Yeah. And plus, like, you're like, to that point there, like, the insight is that, like, if you're there in the interim, like, the urgency to find the or to fill the position gets, like you're kicking the can down the street again. It's like it's maybe it's I'm hitting snooze because, like, someone's actually doing the work. Do I need to is it really now urgent? Because I have someone filling the position in the interim.
Nick:Yeah. True. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's it's it just shows you you do have to do a good job.
Nick:It's not something you can just, you know, just do and and and assume it's okay and and good enough. Like, I I I'm always confused about those stories of, you know, I I applied for 300 jobs, and all all I got was nothing. You know? It is very hard for me to believe that you gave each and every one of those 300 applications, like, the love and attention it deserves. You know?
Nick:It feels like it's just what what do they call it? Shoot and pray? Pray and spray? Pray and spray?
Tyler:Shoot. Yeah. Shoot and pray.
Nick:Yeah. Hopes that something sticks. Like, probably, like, something might stick in the end, but I also feel like the conversion rate, quote unquote, there is very low. You know? It's it's probably much better to do the thing you just said.
Nick:Yeah. I I I think that's that's way more impressive. Like, the the bold claim that you can do something so well, they're not looking they're they're not going to look for someone else anymore.
Tyler:Yeah. I mean, their their radar's up when you say it, so you gotta you gotta match, like, you gotta match your mouth there a bit. But That's true. Yeah. If you do, I dare them to replace you.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Back in the early days, I I had a a portfolio book, like just like 20 pages, like really pressed and printed and binded together. And that at the end of each interview, you know, this shows my age, by the way. I'm really old, but I had to go to an office for an interview, like, back in the day instead of through Google Meet or whatever.
Nick:I would bring my portfolio with me. You know, it was impressive already that I had that I didn't open my laptop and ask for a Wi Fi password, I just opened the book. And then in the end, I was like, oh, you know, keep it. And then I would go. You know?
Nick:So they had something there that that used to be my own. You know, that that really helped. It did I'm I'm really sure that the conversion rate there was was way better. So, yeah, you should do something silly that doesn't scale because it will make a big difference and a big impact.
Tyler:Scale the unscalable, the typical line there. That's a good one.
Nick:Yeah. I am one of my now favorite clients sent me a a box of handmade cookies from from Amsterdam as a Oh. Gift for the twins. You know? And and they added a a handwritten note like, we thought you could use some extra energy.
Tyler:You know? That's cute.
Nick:And I'm I'm telling you, you know, someone on the other side of the world about cookies from Amsterdam. You know? It just shows you the impact it makes and how how happy you are to tell a story about that occurrence to someone else if you have something silly, you know, because everyone's going to apply. Everyone's going to do a cold DM or call or whatever. But if you can find something special, something silly that takes a lot of work and probably costs a bit of money, you know, people will talk about you.
Nick:And I'm starting to feel like, especially with AI and how easy it is for people to just, you know, apply in bulk, it's it's almost going to be the only way for you to to to stand out and find a job or get a job, basically.
Tyler:Yeah. There's something there. Like, something as small as, like like, just curating your your application for, like, again against the spray and pray, like curating your cover letter or or having, like, a little personality into your your portfolio. Like, I've gotten comments just off of my about section alone because it's not just like I do UX and I help businesses, etcetera. I just like I have a bit about me.
Tyler:I'm a new father. I love I love knitting or whatever it is. Like, just something that's, like, out of the ordinary. I don't have knitting on my port on my website.
Nick:I wouldn't mind, you know, if if that's your if that's your big hobby. I I I won't judge. I would I would support you.
Tyler:But I mean, it's just about like to like, to your point, like, you got the cookies and then I was like, it wasn't just like a box of I don't know. It's like a box of flowers or or whatever it is. It's something unique that you haven't seen before. Yeah. And it's like it's like stopping the scroll.
Tyler:It's something unique that you've seen that it's out of the ordinary. So it's something that that sticks into your brain. Like, it'll it'll just Yeah. It'll separate you from the pile.
Nick:The yeah. The the most basic one that really like, it has a 100% score for me in in at least getting a reply is let's say someone on LinkedIn is like, hey. Looking for a designer. If, you know, requirements, and then if this is you, send me a DM. You you know he gets hundreds of DMs.
Nick:Walls of text. You can assume it's all like, hello, you know, generated stuff. I'm excellent for the job because blah blah blah. I created a Loom video where I I well, I created a FigJam board where it said my name plus company name equals, and then some sort of emoji that was a play on words with our names, plus all sorts of work and testimonials. And then the Loom recording was me introducing myself, you know, looking in the camera so that they could get a better view of how I present myself.
Nick:And then two minutes Loom recording explaining my work and then how it relates to the thing they're looking for. It's a reply and an invite to talk almost all the time because it's different. It's visual. You can see someone, look someone in the eyes, and it's just way shorter, they don't have time to read another wall of text. You don't have to send cookies somewhere all the time or flowers or whatever, but a little thing can make you different already.
Nick:And, yeah, that's really going to to get you somewhere.
Tyler:That's my topic. That's a win. I think everyone should copy that one.
Nick:Yeah. Then Not every one because then I'm not special anymore.
Tyler:Well, the ones that does work, I
Nick:think we should get
Tyler:a a cut or percentage. Yeah. Of the earnings Maybe. Earnings generated.
Nick:Yeah. And, you know, the fun thing is just by doing all of that, you are building experience too. Because I I know we got a bit carried away about, you know, how to get experience when you have none. But I I I you you learn from just doing all of that and how you present yourself. And maybe your crazy idea is building a website, like you said, like building that website before you have the yes from a client.
Nick:Like, that's the real projects. Like, it doesn't matter if they told you no. It doesn't matter if they ghost you. You still build a a real thing, you know? So
Tyler:Yeah. So I think the insight there is, to answer the question, how do you get work when you don't have any you haven't worked before? The answer is get some work.
Nick:Yeah. But I think yeah. That's yeah.
Tyler:I think, like, what's something I would suggest not to do? And I know this is like the default is like, well, then just create some pet projects. I don't know if that works anymore. Just in the especially now, just on how easy it is to create a thing. I think your work has to be attached to, like, a customer or some kind of some kind of client.
Tyler:Because I've seen this trend lately. I don't know if it's or at least, like, at least a couple months ago where people are just like vibe they have vibe coded solutions on as portfolio items, which is like just diminishes, like, just perception of what that is. It's just like something you could have done in an afternoon. I think the the value is it's it's a solution to a problem that an actual person had regardless if it was free work or not.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's okay, I think, in a sense, if you have I've seen people have playgrounds on their websites. Like, it's, you know, this is my portfolio website. This is a page about me.
Nick:This is my work, and then here's my playground where they just it's like mini case studies where you would find, you know, five coders done in an afternoon type things, which is fine because you package it well. It's like you're not presenting it as this is a full project, but you do show that you are interested in your work. It's not just a nine to five thing. Like, you're thinking about building things and trying things, and then, you know, it just shows you it shows people you have passion for your for your craft. But I do agree.
Nick:I I I would probably stay away from things that look, you know, like slop, like just I don't care scent. You know, that's not the way to go. I would rather you slow down and and apply to one or two jobs a week, but with so much care that there's no way around you. But that also that also brings up more of an existential question, like, do you care? Like, do you do you do you feel you have passion for the job?
Nick:Like, I I I do. I know you do, but it's it's something you have to ask yourself. Like, do I really want to be here? Because that's something I think you really need to have. Or you need to be able to you you need to find a way to show it at least.
Tyler:Yeah. I think it separates the people who really want it. Like, the two, three, four, six months wait time between getting the actual job. Some people just give up after the like, month one. Like and the person who stays along with it is is a different animal, different beast because they're they really want it.
Tyler:And then you can see the difference, like, on the job.
Nick:I no. I haven't thought this through 100% yet. Just throwing it out there as a wrap up of this this episode statement. If you're starting from scratch, you need full time dedication and work and passion, and it will take you two years to get a job. What do you think?
Nick:Is that, you know, well, what do you think? No leading question.
Tyler:Like, it's two years till you get the job that you love?
Nick:Well well, that's that's a good question. Let's say a job you're you're happy enough with, like six out of 10 score. Two years? Yeah. That's Like a paying a paying a paying job that gives you that supports you to, you know, have food on the table.
Tyler:If you really want it, I think it's it's achievable. You can do stuff in the meantime.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:If it's truly what you're passionate about, like, you can wait two years. It's a stretch, but like, I'd maybe cap it at one year.
Nick:Okay. Yeah.
Tyler:People have to put food on the table, but if you really want a thing, there are sacrifices that need to be made.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, that that so I I think we are you know, it it sounds really dramatic what I'm going to say now, and I don't mean it that way, but it feels like we've been poisoned by promises by, you know, boot camps. You know, six week program job guarantee, that kind of thing.
Tyler:Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. And I I don't really think that works, not in this market at least. And then people start to expect that to happen, While in reality, it's it's just so much more challenging, and you need to learn so much more not only in design, but also in, like, business smarts and that kind of thing. So it takes way longer than weeks. Like, we're talking months or, in my mind, years before you're really ready to get a get a job.
Tyler:Yeah. No. I 100% agree. Like, I took a eight months course, but that was that's misleading.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:Because I even though I took a course, I still consider myself self taught because I've I was that person who who cracked or get the illegal version of Photoshop, Illustrator, downloading, like, the the whatever the the secret key didn't make it work. Just Yeah.
Nick:I remember. I remember.
Tyler:Anyway, just to get the tools that are that I had that kind of practice to get good. And Yeah. That was all that time spent outside of the course itself.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. Did you follow all these Photoshop YouTube tutorials to create this cool little, like, forum banners?
Tyler:Yes. All of them. I did. I've heard every tutorial, every YouTube tutorial, every, like people had, like, websites where they hosted their own courses a lot. I was more prevalent.
Tyler:All of it. Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Good days. Good days. Yeah.
Nick:So all of that counts, you know. So when I say two years, it's from day one realizing I want to do this thing. Yes. You know, oh, UX sounds interesting. Let's see if I can find something on YouTube.
Nick:Like, that's day one. And then day 700 something, two year mark is is signed. I have a full time job.
Tyler:Yep. As long as you get your ten thousand hours. Yeah. As the old saying goes.
Nick:True. True. Yeah. Yeah. So I think I I think we've covered some really good strategies to get away from the the mark zero of experience.
Nick:You know? There's some great ways for you to build experience and then have something that a hiring manager would consider to be quote unquote real experience.
Tyler:Yeah. A 100%. And then I guess our insight again is do the work. Do work so you can get some work.
Nick:Yeah. True. True. Alright. Well then, I mean, if it still doesn't work, know, Tyler and I, we both do coaching, you know?
Nick:Yes. Not only individually, like, you can pick your favorite. We're not keeping score. I don't mind who your favorite is, but pick your favorite or sit down with the both of us. And we have all that stuff on our on our website and linked everywhere.
Nick:So, yeah. I mean, I can speak for the both of us, right, if if I say that we are more than happy to help.
Tyler:Of course. 100%. Link in the description. We're we're both here at at the ready. Been doing it for a while.
Nick:Oh, yeah. Yeah. We're we're
Tyler:really old. We're really old. Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Alright.
Tyler:That's another episode in the bag.
Nick:Yeah. Great episode. By the way, if you're stuck second guessing your work or trying to figure out your next move, drop a question in the comments or leave a review. We might actually feature you in one of our future episodes.
Tyler:And if you got any value from this episode, hit subscribe wherever you're listening. It helps more than you think.
Nick:You can can find everything else, resources, articles, and more at designtablepodcast.com.
Tyler:Thanks for being here.
Nick:See you next time.