Inside Marketing with MarketSurge

In this episode of Inside Marketing with MarketSurge, Reed Hansen sits down with Ollie James, CEO of Adttribution, to unpack one of the most confusing—and most important—topics in modern marketing: how to measure performance without destroying consumer trust.
As cookies crumble, AI reshapes search, and privacy regulations tighten worldwide, Ollie explains how brands can still prove ROI, make smarter ad decisions, and protect the ecosystem that keeps publishers and creators alive.
Whether you’re a founder, CMO, or growth marketer, this episode delivers clarity in a world full of acronyms.
💡 What You’ll Learn:
• How to explain complex ad tech concepts to non-technical teams
 • Why attribution is still unsolved—and how to think about it correctly
 • The real impact of AI on media buying and measurement
 • Why brand, not clicks, often drives conversion
 • Ethical challenges around data privacy and consent
 • What happens to publishers in an AI-first internet
👉 Key Highlights:
✅ “Explain it like I’m 5” – Why simplification is the secret weapon of great marketers
✅ The Cat Analogy – A surprisingly perfect way to understand customer acquisition & retention
✅ Multi-Touch Reality – Why last-click attribution fails modern buyers
✅ AI Media Buyers – How machines are starting to buy ads (and what scares Ollie about it)
✅ Privacy vs Performance – How to balance ROI with consumer trust
✅ Saving Publishers – Why ethical ad tech matters more than ever
🧠 About the Guest
Ollie James is the CEO of adttribution, a next-generation ad tech company helping brands measure ROI across connected TV, mobile, and desktop—without compromising consumer privacy. Previously, Ollie worked at Rockerbox and Rocker Ad, partnering with global brands like Apple, iTunes, and American Express.
🔗 Website: https://adttribution.com
🔗 LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/olliejames
📈 At MarketSurge, we help you turn tools into systems — and systems into growth.
If you want marketing automation that feels personal and performs like a team of 10, you’re in the right place.
🧠 Want to talk strategy or see it in action?
 🎯 Book your 15-minute Value or Free Coffee Call:
 👉 https://link.marketsurge.io/widget/bookings/15minutevalueorfreecoffee
🔗 Useful Links
🌐 Website: https://marketsurge.io
🐦 X / Twitter: https://x.com/marketsurging
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/marketsurgeio
🎙️ Podcast: https://marketsurge.transistor.fm/

Creators and Guests

Host
Reed Hansen
Reed Hansen is a seasoned digital marketing executive with a proven track record of driving business growth through innovative strategies. As the Chief Growth Officer at MarketSurge, he focuses on leveraging AI-powered marketing tools to help businesses scale efficiently. Reed's expertise spans from leading startups to Fortune 500 companies, making him a recognized authority in the digital marketing space. His unique ability to combine data-driven insights with creative solutions has been instrumental in achieving remarkable sales growth for his clients. ​

What is Inside Marketing with MarketSurge?

Welcome to Inside Marketing with MarketSurge — your front-row seat to the boldest business insights, marketing breakthroughs, and entrepreneurial real talk.

Hosted by Reed Hansen, Chief Growth Officer at MarketSurge and a digital marketing veteran who's helped scale everything from scrappy startups to Fortune 500 giants, this podcast dives deep into what’s really moving the needle in today’s marketing world. Find us at Marketsurge.io

Each week, we’ll break down the latest marketing and business news (minus the fluff), explore tech trends you actually need to know, and feature unfiltered conversations with the most interesting minds in entrepreneurship and marketing.

Whether you're a founder, a marketer, or just a curious hustler looking to level up, this is where growth happens—loudly, smartly, and with just the right amount of sass.

Subscribe, tune in, and let’s scale something legendary. 🚀

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hello
and welcome back to Inside

Marketing with Market Surge.

Today we're diving deep into the
intersection of data privacy and

performance in the ads world.

My guest is Ollie James,
CEO of ad attribution.

a next gen ad tech company supplying
high quality audience data for connected

tv, mobile, and desktop campaigns.

on a mission to help brands prove
ROI without breaking consumer trust.

And in an era where cookies are crumbling
and privacy laws are tightening, that

mission couldn't be more relevant.

Before leading attribution,
cut his teeth at rock ad the

identity resolution pioneer.

And manage strategic clients like
Apple, iTunes, and American Express.

What sets him apart is his ability
to turn complex ad tech into

commercial clarity, helping brands
not just collect data, but actually

use it responsibly and profitably.

So grab your notebook because
this one's packed with actionable

insights for marketers, founders
and growth leaders alike.

welcome to the show.

Ollie James: So much for having me.

Thank you for that introduction.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Well, my pleasure.

I, you've, you have a very
impressive resume and you know,

excited to hear your insights.

Now, one thing that I know you emphasize
is helping clients, maybe non-technical

marketers understand complex technology.

What would you say is
the secret to turning.

Complex technical topics into
you know, clear understandings

with these kinds of clients.

You know, I think that's something
that a lot of us struggle with.

Ollie James: It's really tricky and
I struggle with it myself because

we live in this world of acronyms.

And the trouble is with

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yes.

Ollie James: is that PE the acronyms means
different things to different people.

And I really struggle.

And I think one of the key things
is to try and simplify things as

much as possible and try to at least
clarify what the acronym means in the

conversation when you bring one up.

So when we're talking about roas,
then it's the return on advertising

spend versus, you know, some other
person's understanding of what it is.

And, and all of these I mean, in
my world I work sort of primarily

in the programmatic world and we.

You know, SSPs and DSPs and all
sorts of wonderful wonderful

different entities that interact
with each other during this place.

So I think that's the first key point
is to, when you're discussing something,

is to try and dial down on the acronyms
and assume that as a really smart guy

called is Keith Fagan, who is the chief
product Officer at Sovereign Who are

a partner Of ours over in the States.

And I had, I had dinner with him
once and he said, Ali, explain.

This to me, like I'm a 5-year-old
and it stopped me in my tracks.

'cause I then really realized like,
actually I'm not sure I can, and

if I can't, that means I don't
really deeply, deeply understand

the topic that we're talking about.

So I always hark back to what Keith was
saying about this oversimplification

because you get a lot of people in a room
that just kind of nod and pretend they

understand or, or won't stop or don't
feel they have the confidence to kind

of interject and say, I'm really sorry.

Can you just kind of unpack that
and dive a bit deeper into it?

So yeah, I harp back to
Keith's words on that one.

Explain, try to explain
everything like I'm a 5-year-old

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Ollie James: get to,
the nib of the subject.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah, no, I,
that's, that's a great rule of thumb,

you know, and, and I think earlier
in my career I was the one nodding

along frequently and, and I think
that over time that it is definitely

more valuable to you know, if you feel
like the 5-year-old in the room on the

technical topics, I think it's fair to.

You know, it's a good exercise in
humility, but it's a good almost pushback

to see like how well they understand it.

You know, like, can you,
can you clarify that for me?

You know, and I think it makes
for a fruitful discussion too.

I think that's worthwhile.

Ollie James: other one is the
is to try and use analogies

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Ollie James: well if you can.

There was a, there's a great marketer,
a friend of Michael Briany Thomas, who

would describe, she would say like.

Use an analogy, like how would
you steal your neighbor's cat in

terms of marketing, and relate that
to how you draw an audience in.

And it's like, you don't go and try
and chase the cat around the garden.

You don't go with a box
and try and stuff it in.

Um, you leave a little, breadcrumb trail,
a little food, and you carefully entice

and you put marketing into this great
analogy of stealing your neighbor's cat

This cat and opened the cage and it runs
back across the garden to your neighbor.

But you gotta keep that cat AKA that
customer, you know, very happily curled

up on your sofa to say, you know,
it's now your cat, AKA your customer.

So that was a wonderful way she
used this analogy to describe

sort of marketing in general.

So I would think that another
one, and it stuck with me.

I thought that's always, 'cause
that's an approach to marketing and

it encompasses so much of what we
do and how to do it and the nuances

of actually winning a new customer.

And keeping hold of them.

So I thought that was a great one.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
I, I like that a lot.

I might be borrowing that in the future.

I think, you know, and, you
know, I can totally envision.

You know how cats are so skittish and
they, you know, they are of course,

afraid and, but also motivated by
food and, you know, so you have

to figure out the balance between
trust and motivation and that's,

Ollie James: and we want
to keep hold of them.

and that's the key, isn't it?

And that sort of customer loyalty play.

People think of marketing
as just that top of funnel.

I mean, if you must use funnel as
an analogy, then, you know, but

actually people come out of the
bottom, and we lose customers right

the way down, at every single stage.

So, yeah, the cat, the cat one's fun.

Keep it on the sofa.

Warm, happy, and

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: yes.

Ollie James: not wanting to get
back out there to see what's in your

other neighbor or down the road.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right.

Well, good.

Good lessons about retention in that.

Ollie James: that.

You can pack into a simple analogy of
like stealing a cat and uh, I think

that really helps break that down and
you can apply that to technical terms.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Ollie James: out and maybe try and
sort of things into objects and

connect those objects together.

That's often a quite a good way in terms
of when you're explaining technical

subjects, is to get the, we used to
call it object orientated engineering

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Mm-hmm.

Ollie James: back in the day
where you would have object one.

How does that interact with object?

Two, and then draw the diagram,
and then suddenly, people can see

the infrastructure that's behind
it and the flow of a journey.

and always have the user, and
always have the advertiser.

And then if you can show how those
connections between those two, like

physically and as simply as you
can, as if you're explaining it to a

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Mm-hmm.

Ollie James: if a five

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Ollie James: your class at
school, the first thing that

the teacher does is pick up.

a whiteboard marker.

I mean, these days I guess they
use a computer and a screen.

But essentially that visualization
of processes and interconnectivity

of the different elements of
technology is often a really good

way to help people understand what
it is that you're talking about.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

And well, I like what you're saying
too about using, you know, with

the same client or same group.

at a client you use different, uh,
teaching methods, you know, so maybe

you've got the allegory and then you've
got the, uh, object visualization

on the whiteboard or the hands-on,
like, let's diagram this together.

You know, there's definitely
a lot of different value.

I actually find this topic really
interesting and I can tell you've thought

about this a lot but maybe let's apply
this to, another concept that I know

you're an expert in is, attribution.

Now, big question every marketer has, or
every business executive has is how do you

attribute, you know, what marketing spend
ad spend, results in the greatest return?

Now, you know, one thing that
we, always consider is that.

The ad isn't always the only touch
point that an individual has with,

you know, in a purchase journey.

And so but sometimes it's hard to figure
out what are the other touch points, and

how influential other touchpoint were.

Tell us a little bit about how you
think through attribution and, maybe

how you describe it to customers
that have that same question.

Ollie James: Sure.

I mean, I'd spent, my journey back in
2002, my career journey at Trade Doubler,

which is one of the Europeans, which was
the European biggest affiliate network.

So in an affiliate business,
an advertiser pays a publisher.

A commission from the action that's driven
through that publisher carrying the ad.

So you know, in the UK we have the
Telegraph the times, or we click on an

ad, we go through to an e-commerce store,
we buy something, and then the publisher

gets a commission from the advertiser
via the affiliate network for that sale.

I spent six years there,
using cookies which is a kind

of a packet of information.

It's like a barcode, that is
downloaded to the user's machine.

And we're able to read that barcode at
the end of the transaction to see whether

or not it was driven by a publisher.

And those cookies were going away and now
it doesn't look like they are going away.

I'm talking about Google Chrome, which
is one of the biggest web browsers.

we're deprecate the third party cookie
and say, Hey, you're not allowed to

drop this barcode, this sort of scanning
reflector, onto people's computers

anymore because there are privacy issues.

And they decided actually in the
end that they were gonna continue.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hmm.

Ollie James: we either tracked
the sale or the transaction

in session, so we would pass.

Bunch of code from the publisher to
the advertiser website and read that,

but that doesn't work when the user is
crossing over from their mobile device.

As you said, we've got this multi-touch
point of attribution, right?

So someone can see an ad on their phone
and they move across to their iPad.

They then walk past a billboard
and they see that again.

They get a friend of theirs, sees the
ad, and talks to 'em about it on the bus.

So you get that kind of referral
or you get, email marketing.

I was chatting to Sue Cat.

Chaplain from ESB Connect the other
day about her email marketing company.

And how that is a part of driving a sale.

And we say, what is it?

Seven to 10 to 12 touchpoints
before a user is actually

converted into a customer.

They have to see things, more
than once on multiple Devices

in order to actually transact.

And of course, on the flip side of
that, you get people that just see

an ad and buy it straight away, so it
doesn't apply to But the more considered

the purchase is, what I mean by that
is the more kind of expensive it is.

And it's more basic term.

If you're buying a car or you're buying
a family holiday, the more considered

that purchase is, the more touch points
you will find people interact with.

The more value that needs to
be added along that chain.

So it, it's the holiday review website
with a deep article on the destination

that you want to visit probably has a lot
more impact than the coupon site does.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hmm.

Ollie James: money off the taxi
when you get your airport taxi

or transfer when you get there.

So it depends on the kind of transaction,
the kind of things that are people buying

as to what helps and where the value lies.

But it's very.

we've not solved it.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hmm.

Ollie James: And of course, I was talking
to Andrew Litner yesterday about, he works

for a company called Brand Metrics and
we were talking about brand lift and how

you can measure that and the impact of a
brand can affect somebody's decision to

purchase, which we can't track online.

I can't say that if somebody is
a brand loyal person, they see an

ad once they go through and click.

Is it the publisher
that was holding the ad?

Was it a Google search Result
that sent it, was it chat GPT?

Was it one of these LLMs, these
AI agents that have suggested

that you visit this website?

Or was it because that brand
has just, you know, if you're a

snowboarder and you like your Burton
Snowboard brand within snowboarding,

and I'm a bit of a fan boy of.

Burton and yeah, I might see an ad,
but I knew I was gonna buy that Burton

jacket, albeit that the last one I bought
was a retro jacket that's like 20 years

old on eBay because I just, I really

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Wow.

Ollie James: buttons down the front of it.

So it wasn't that Burton have
particularly sold me on this massive.

Technical jacket.

It was just because I love
that old school brand.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Mm-hmm.

Ollie James: that to say that,
that eBay ad converted me.

So brand has a, has a big impact on it.

And you can use, like you asked me about
the tools you have, you know, the Google

analytics will always claim that it's
search activity was responsible for

driving a hundred and it, and that they
want all of the value and, and everybody's

trying to get a piece of that pie and,
certainly with my company, we're trying

to provide the data layer that is able to
say, yeah, this person saw the ad across

their different devices and in this place
and try and help inform that decision.

Although I can't, think anybody,
whether we will ever be able to truly

look Behind that attribution story and
say where in this, elements created

the value that led to the conversion?

And then which elements were most valuable
and most important in driving that sale,

I think is of whether or not I've just set
myself up for this impossible hiding year

because, because it's an impossible thing.

But we can try and we can, we can
take inferences from the data that

we have, And use just a bit of, of
our common sense, and I think if.

comes down to a certain extent to quality.

And if we can make sure that we're
improving quality within that chain and

we have a really well-written email,
for example, if you're using email

marketing or we have a really great piece
of creative, we, we don't outsource.

Our copywriting to an AI agent.

We don't outsource creative to an AI
agent, and we keep that human in the loop

and we use the agencies and the really
smart people that the strategists within

our, our agencies and, and the senior, the
CMOs at brands, and I think that's the way

we can, um, ensure that what we're doing
is worthwhile rather than kind of worrying

too much about this whole big chain.

and which piece of it
was most influential.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: yeah.

Well, you know, that's a great overview.

You know, the big question, I mean,
there's a lot of big questions,

but AI obviously has introduced
some additional complexity here.

You know, we're probably not too far
away from AI allowing us to advertise

directly on the platform, but for
now, like chat GPT, for instance,

already I know a lot of marketers are
trying to, improve their placement in

AI answers with certain techniques.

What kinds of data and, How has the
impact of ai, how has that changed, your

role in, helping define the attribution?

People are using it more and more.

They're doing different
kinds of searching.

there's a huge adoption cycle.

we were just talking about before
the call started there's a potential

bubble where things might be turned
on their head, Tell us a little bit

about how AI plays in the work you do.

Ollie James: There's a number
of different elements with it.

So we have identity data, so we
have lots of identifiers, IDs that

we take from sort of mobile devices
and well all your different devices.

Then we look at online activities
such as the time with which an ad was

clicked on, it's called a timestamp.

And we grab that 'cause that
timestamp is really, really long and

therefore it's unique essentially.

When, and we tie that to an ad ID or a
mobile id, and we build an idea of a user,

a digital representation of a user, and
we say, Hey, this person is likely to be.

Of a certain demographic or
interested in looking, has visited a

website that is about, I don't know
Florida vacations or whatever, and

therefore he's probably an intend.

He or she or they are probably
an intender to buy a, a Florida

holiday or something like that.

So I.

are seeing now that the, the on the buy
side, so the advertisers are using AI in

order to come and find those audience.

So they're using an AI agent to come
and they'll just tell it with a prompt.

Go and find me everybody that's
interested in Florida that's aged

between this and that, that earns a
certain amount of money that has visited

a related website within the last.

of months.

So rather than that, being a media
buyer, an actual person that's going

and selecting and researching us as a
data company and finding out whether

our data's applicable, it's all moving
towards, we're in the trial stages of,

of, of these AI agents buying media.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Ollie James: some of my headspace
and because we have to develop

the protocols and the compliance
mechanisms to make that safe.

And to ensure that, you know, the
user's privacy is maintained and

that the whole ad tech ecosystem
is communicating properly.

So there's add, CP A DCP is a
protocol that's just come out that

we're working on in order to try
and standardize the way that this

is all going to talk to each other.

So that's taking up a
lot of time and effort.

And the other thing is obviously the, I.

You are thinking a lot about how this
affects publishers because publishers

are cash strapped, they're under

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Ollie James: they are having their,
you know, I dunno about if you spend

a pound on an ad, what does it get?

A couple of cents gets to the publisher
because we've built this big fat layer in

between the advertiser and the publisher.

And now the AI comes along and
says, Hey, you don't need to

go visit the publisher anymore.

We'll show you these results.

push you to where you need to go.

And so we're thinking about how we
make sure that publishers are still

remunerated well and that they don't
lose the small piece of the pie that

they have left, to these agents.

And how that distribution of equity
when it comes to ad spend is fair

and that we don't, 'cause otherwise
we just lose the publishers and

then you lose because publishing
an advert On our publisher website

is there to pay for the journalism,
and we have to have the journalists,

we have to fund that news cycle and
publishing and blog writers and content

writers that otherwise we lose that.

And then it's all AI and that nobody,
that's a very bleak, bleak world.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yes.

Yeah, absolutely.

And no, that's it.

That's an excellent point.

You know, obviously there's going to
have to be some sort of re justification

or rebalancing of this environment to
keep incentivizing people to generate

original content, you know, and,
you know, do that as a profession.

Do you, so, so, you know, I guess
that brings me to another point.

You know, there's, there's a lot of
ethical questions in the, the data

gathering, the attribution, the use of ai.

What are some of the ethical questions
that, that you wrestle with and, and

you know, maybe some, some ideas that
you are a proponent of that, that

maybe our audience hadn't considered.

Ollie James: Yeah, I think, one of
the issues that we have is that the

end user, the average Joe, so to
speak, doesn't understand consent,

doesn't understand how their data is
being used, doesn't necessarily care.

Or isn't educated and savvy
enough to understand what the

implications of their data usage is.

And they're certainly not being
remunerated for having their data

being widely used and monetized
without their sort of knowledge.

And we've all seen that, you know, when
you visit a website, you click a button.

Do you accept cookies?

I mean, we've.

hit the actual point of people
just, I mean, yes or no,

Yeah.

They can have my cookie.

Yes.

I'll say good to those guys.

Someone else, I don't know,
a law firm or something.

No, I don't want that.

But actually the privacy
policies are the same.

I clicked yes, on the Burton website,
but on the Burton website, the subtext

will give them the ability to sell and.

This is not against and I haven't checked,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah,

Ollie James: use them as an

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: an example.

Ollie James: It doesn't
matter which I click.

If I've said yes on one, then
that opens the gate for everyone

else to use it, and I don't think
people understand that enough.

So we need to

To educate users or we need to
take it out of their hands and say.

are gonna take that consent and make
sure that no one's data is being used

without them truly understanding it.

And we will use it in a way that
is not personally identifiable.

and in the US and Europe,
it's a very different thing.

In Europe, we have the,
you know, the GDPR.

Where you

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Mm-hmm.

Ollie James: You can't use sort
of people's email addresses or

you can't use them without there
being some encryption in place.

And in the US it's slightly different.

It's still, although we have state laws
now, so state by state by state in the

us, they're kind of waking up to it
and they look at what the Europeans

doing in terms of regulation and
privacy and they're implementing it.

But we've gotta be careful that we
don't sort of choke the system too

much and that we don't overregulate.

And I think that education
piece for users in terms of.

How, but how do you do that?

I don't know.

And because I don't think that most people
are interested, particularly, I wish

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Ollie James: would just go away and
just let me go on the internet and

I realize that you're gonna show
me an ad, an ad for something that

I might like to buy, that would be

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Ollie James: And once I've bought the
bloody thing, stop showing me the ad.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Stop showing.

Ollie James: If we could crack that

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Ollie James: it would be good.

But I think there's great work that
the IAB, the International Advertising

Bureau, global Organization, great work
that they're doing, the IAB Tech lab,

in particular are always coming up with
great solutions and suggestions, and

we're working together as an industry via
these different groups to address these

issues and to put technology in place.

It all comes back to quality as well.

And these websites that are sort
of made for advertising, built by

ai, there's a war against those.

We're identifying them, we're blacklisting
them, and we're trying to make sure that

users don't end up on them and that we're
not putting cash into these entities.

So there's lots of work
going on behind the scenes.

I think we need to be a bit more
vocal about it, shine a light on

it a bit more, and I think the
likes of Googles of the world could

be doing more to help with that.

The wall gardens, as we call them, ought
to be kind of leading the way and doing

more in terms of ethics and privacy,
but ultimately what we wanna do is to

get the cash the publishers, to the
content creators that are fueling this

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah,

Ollie James: And anything that's kind
of preventing that is a challenge.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: well,
Ollie, that is a lot of information

to digest No, that's great.

you make my job easy.

I would say as the host, you have
a great way of explaining things

and this is, valuable information.

So Ali, if people are interested
in you, obviously, they

could reach out your website.

D-T-T-R-I-B-U-T-I-O n.com

attribution.

but where else could they find you?

What are any other
links that you'd like to

Ollie James: Yeah, I mean

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: plug?

Ollie James: I don't do a great
deal of socials 'cause of my age.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Ollie James: I am, but LinkedIn, I think
I actually got LinkedIn slash Ollie James,

'cause I've been on this for so long.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: That's right.

Ollie James: that's me.

LinkedIn slash Ollie James.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Fantastic.

Ollie James: Send me a message.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Well,
you know, if whether you wanna

work with Ollie as you know, to
help you with your attribution or

need a great podcast guest, I would
definitely recommend Ollie for both.

So thanks so much for
joining us today, Ollie.

Ollie James: I appreciate you, Reid.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: I.

Ollie James: you very
much for having me on.

It's been a pleasure.

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