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If you could ask God one question what would it be? The “Why God Why” podcast is dedicated to exploring the questions that matter most in your life.
Deep questions often don’t have easy answers. We realize that we won’t solve all the world’s problems in one podcast. Our goal is to share our life experience, interview knowledgeable guests and look at how Jesus might interact with our concerns. We also hope to have a ton of fun in the process because even though the issues might be serious, it doesn’t mean that we always need to be.
No matter where you are on your spiritual journey, we are honored to have you with us!
>> Peter Englert: Welcome to the Why God Why Podcast We are starting a brand new series, today with this episode. And the series is called questions of our day. And we wanted to start off with a very easy question. Why is Christianity, or isn't Christianity escapist? And, we are here with Doctor Darrell Bock He's from Dallas Theological Seminary. And, Yeah, Doctor Bach, let's just jump right in. Why don't you take a moment to introduce yourself and tell our listeners a little bit about you.
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: Okay. Well, I'm executive director for cultural engagement at the Hendricks center at Dallas Theological Seminary. I'm also senior research professor of New Testament studies here. I'm in my 42nd year at the seminary, so it means I started teaching when I was five years old and, married. I engage in a global ministry. I'm getting ready to leave for about three months straight this summer, where I'll be in Poland, Australia, New Zealand and India. And we, are, mostly in the Gospels and Acts in terms of the things that I teach. stuff related to the historical Jesus and then the cultural engagement stuff that I do to help people think about how the church functions in a pluralistic world.
>> Peter Englert: Just to jump in, I first encountered you when I was a sophomore at University of Valley Forge, studying pastoral ministries in the Gospels classes. And, between your Luke commentary from the NIV application to your ephesians in the Tyndale commentary had a significant impact on my life. So I just want to say thank you, for that. It means a lot. And, you're very welcome.
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: Thank you for the kind words.
>> Peter Englert: Yeah. And, so you have a lot of credibility here, but before we get started, you probably. You've started talking about cultural engagement with one of your most famous students. To us, his name's Rob Cattalani Why don't you tell our listeners, for those of you who don't know, Why God Why is part of Browncroft Community Church Rob, as our senior pastor, why don't you just tell us a little bit about Rob as a student and some of your conversations with him, in cultural engagement?
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: Well, we signed a blood pact that says, I shouldn't say very much. No. No, Rob, you know, Rob is one of those students who comes and he's interested in developing in terms of ministry, but he's also very aware of the challenges of what ministry represent in the kind of world that we live in. And so he developed an interest in that regard. And so we've stayed in contact. You know, once he left seminary, he wasn't one of these people who believed, well, seminary does this thing over here, and then there's the real world over there. And so, you know, we're kind of like this zoo off to the side. And he didn't believe that, and so he, went into ministry. We've stayed in contact about some of these issues. And, you know, he's someone who shows, a real concern, and desire to have what I would describe as a holistic ministry where you're not only preaching content of the Bible, but you're really asking hard, full questions about how that fits into life.
>> Peter Englert: No, I appreciate you saying that. Let's transition a little bit, because I actually think that that's a good framework for us. some people that know the Gospels they might think of Jesus. Jesus with the little children, Jesus throwing, the tables over, and Jesus is this nice and kind figure, almost like a grandpa. And then you decide to take this turn to cultural topics, very, very difficult topics. Some people might see that as connected. Some people might see that as disconnected. Can you walk us through that process of being a scholar in the Gospels to now someone that's dealing with some of these cultural trends that we're talking about?
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: Well, let me frame your question a little bit by saying it this way. Jesus is not Santa Claus. And so, Jesus was very serious about life. He was very serious about the flaws that human beings have, how to deal with those, what they can and can't do for themselves, and what they need God for, that kind of thing. So the entering question is, is Christianity escapist? To which my reply is, no. Christianity is realism. It's realistic about where people are. And if you don't think we can be a mess, just turn on your television during news time. And all of a sudden it becomes very clear by the nature of the news and what we deal with from day to day, that. That we do a less than stellar job of relating to one another. Well, in the mix of the different kinds of people that we have and the kinds of mixtures, the pluralism that we face, we don't do well with our differences, and we also don't do well with our responsibility for how those differences get dealt with. And the Bible has a technical theological term for handling that poorly. And one of those technical terms is the word sin, that we treat each other poorly, that we don't respond as we ought, those kinds of things. in systematic theology, we call that total depravity. We don't mean by and by total depravity, we don't mean we're as bad as you can possibly imagine, but we're bad enough. And, it impacts our relationships, it impacts our marriages, it impacts our work. and Jesus came to deal with that. And that's not sitting on the lap of someone who's dressed in red, bringing your list of what you want for Christmas, to that person. that's about looking in a mirror and seeing what's really there.
>> Peter Englert: I love how you just kind of jumped into the question, you're making my job easier. So there's some people that would say, Jesus is Santa Claus. He just wants to do nice things. I think this question is, isn't Christianity escapist? Comes a little bit from people that feel like Jesus is very disconnected from the issues of our day. So when we think of the political landscape, when we think of racism, when we think of even the interplay of science and religion, that Jesus just seems disconnected. How would you respond to that? And maybe you disagree with me, maybe that's not where some of the question comes from.
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: Well, no, I think that that probably is true, but I think it's hard to argue that Jesus is disconnected to life when Jesus is very much connected with thinking through what the heart of the person is. we tend to define our world by the circumstances that we find ourselves in and the dilemmas that that produces. But that's only half the equation. The other half of the equation is how we respond, to those situations we find ourselves in, what created those situations to begin with, etcetera. Those all come from the hearts of people and the way they respond to what's around them. So when I say Christianity is about realism as opposed to escapism, that's what I'm talking about. And unfortunately, a lot of people want to pursue life and not look at heart issues. They don't want to look inside. They want to do everything they can to avoid looking inside. and so if we're going to talk about escapism, we should talk about the way in which the distractions of life and the entertainment associated with life, etcetera, distract us from really thinking about what's really going on. Or another way to illustrate it is to think about when I talk about difficult conversations a lot, when I'm in ministry and talking about cultural engagement, I say, there's the topic that you're thinking about. That's what people think they're talking about. They're actually almost never talking about that topic. They are, but they're not. What's really going on are the lenses they use to look at that topic and the way their identity is tied into what it is that they're talking about. And so when you and, I'll, get personal for a second. When you fight with your wife, you're usually not fighting about the thing that you're talking about. You're actually fighting about the way in which you're relating to one another through that thing that you're talking about. That's the heart. Okay? There is no deeper place in life than that. And so, Christianity is not escapist. Ah. It can be executed in a way that is escapist, and it can look like it's escapist. But if it's the real deal, it's really asking questions about the heart. And the heart is at the center of what happens in life.
>> Peter Englert: That's super practical and super helpful. If it's okay with you, let's walk through, an issue and kind of walk through those lenses, because I think this is really helpful. and we'll kind of get back to some of the other issues with this idea of Christianity being escapist. But we have an election this fall. and so I'll let you go whatever direction you want to go. But you think about when someone comes to you and talks to you about politics, and you can pick conservative or progressive, whoever it is, what are the lenses that you're trying to get to of, hey, there's a side that's going outside that we can't control. But what's going on inside of you? How have you walked with people and engaged in politics? In the election?
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: We have come, to a place where in the church, we have said what matters is policy and policy decisions, but character doesn't matter. We are defending things about character that 15 years ago we never would have defended simply because the policies of the person we're talking about are very different. And that division, that schizophrenia, if I can say it that way, actually ignores the heart questions that we're talking about, or at least can. And so the tension that we have is that we have two sets of candidates, neither of whom is anything close to ideal. And, for a variety of reasons. And people are making judgments about what they prioritize and looking at that. And the one thing discussion we ought to totally stay out of is the idea that one side has this all right and the other side has this all wrong. both of them are a messy mix. And, so that means that there is a character, and I can say a community discussion about how we treat one another in the midst of these conversations about policy and the things that we should be doing that is as important as the policies themselves, because we've got to ask ourselves what we're doing to ourselves as a community, by the way we talk about one another and engage with one another in the midst of our disagreements. So, for me, the election is, obviously important. I mean, who leads us is important, but I think we've lost sight of why we're fraying as a community. and that needs as much attention in thinking about how we engage as anything else. And I think we're very, very poor at understanding where someone else is coming from and why. And trying to understand where they're coming from. That position, perhaps, versus the position I hold and wrestling with, how to do better job at that conversation than worrying about who I cast my vote for.
>> Peter Englert: M so I want to kind of come back to this escapist, because I like the way that you talked about that, where we're not going to separate sides. I grew up as a, kid during the eighties in Christianity. And I can remember, I watched McGee and me, which was a christian tv show. I went to a christian school. and a lot of those decisions from my parents were, like, personal decisions. So I'm not trying to throw shade at my parents, but there was a pervasive idea in church that we are in the world, not of it. And so it started kind of being this idea of, we're creating, whether it's a counterculture, subculture. We can go into that, but I'm not sure that that's the right way. Then for a while, it was how, like, I remember the day, it was like, okay to listen to secular music again, like, it was okay to listen to a song that's on the radio. Cause it hints towards Christianity. And I wonder, the people that are asking this question today that aren't Christians, isn't Christianity escapist? Because their assumption is that in 2024, the evangelical Christians, making just generalized assumptions, live in the suburbs, vote Republican, and then they're trying to create their own subculture or counterculture, whichever way you want. Do you think that this is part of it? And obviously, you live in Dallas. Maybe it's more pronounced or less pronounced, but this idea of, we're going to try to be the city on the hill, we're going to try to be separate, but maybe we've lost some of our engagement. Is that fair? Or how would you kind of, contextualize.
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: I think that's very fair. And you have a variety of reasons why people isolate themselves. but notice what you're doing when you isolate yourself in relationship to the commission that Jesus gave us. Because Jesus said, he didn't say, go into your church and make disciples. He said, go into the world to make disciples. so how do I do that? And how do I do that? Well, and when 30% of the population in the United States is said to be religiously unaffiliated, they're the nuns. Not n u n s, but n o n e s, but they're the nuns. How do I have conversations with people who don't even have the categories that I have theologically about how I see the world and how do I get to know where they're coming from and how do I engage with them? And I, can walk up to them and say, the Bible says, but if for them, the idea that God exists means that god can't say anything and that the Bible isn't what I am purporting it to be, that they aren't even there to process what it is that I'm saying to them. When I say, the Bible says, how do I go there? And I like to tell people, the church is used to saying to the world something's true because it's in the Bible, but it's actually the reverse that's going on. God puts it in the Bible because it's true on its own merit. It happens to reside in the Bible. So am I, as a believer, ready to explain why it is that something is inherently true, not because it's in the Bible, but because God is revealing what the realities of life are, and the Bible is the place where he's told us that. I tell him the Bible is like a window that I look through to get towards the truth, but the truth is what's behind the window or what's in the window as opposed to the window itself. and so that means that I develop a different way of engagement. I have to one, get a sense of where someone else is coming from. I call it getting a spiritual gps, reading, asking questions, hearing their story, how they see life, understanding what their whys and wherefores are. And when I'm doing that, my doctrinal meter is on mute. I'm just trying to listen for where they're coming from in the hopes of finding a bridge to have a conversation with them about what life is all about. and there will come a time when there's an assessment and the doctoral meter goes back on. But initially I want to understand where they're coming from because I got to understand what categories do they have and what drives them in such a way that I can present the gospel to meet that need, because I believe the gospel meets all needs. And so, it's a different way of doing things. We're used to having this content that we want to throw at people, and I'm sitting here going, well, before I throw that content at that person, I better know where that person's coming from.
>> Peter Englert: I want to latch onto something that you just said there. If I'm not a Christian and I'm asking this question, isn't Christianity escapist? I might have a christian friend that says, they hear my problems, they hear what I'm going through, and then they say to me, you know what? let go and let God and or Romans 828, all things work together for good for those that love God. In that moment that I've taken time to kind of share, this is where I'm coming from. How would you walk with someone through that instead of throwing those cliches that end up feeling like Christianity's escapist?
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: Well, the answer is, I walk with them. by walking with them, you know, I take the time and the energy to engage with them, to listen to them, to, wrestle with them. You know, I tell people, if you listen carefully to the culture, you will hear the dislocation that comes from not knowing God. People will say things like, I'm trying to find myself, and I like to joke, I say, well, I thought you were here all along. But when we hear that phrase, what you're saying is someone is actually confessing that they're suspended wonderfully in midair. They don't know why they're here or, what life is all about, and they're acknowledging it. So they just go through the motions. You know, you hear it. Sometimes I'm just going through the motions of life. I'm just trying to earn a living, take care of my family. But if you ask me the deep questions of the heart about why I'm here and who I am, etcetera, I might attach it to an identity that I have in the public square or something like that. But if you really press me, I'm not sure why I'm here. And what this is all about, that is being firmly suspended in midair, that's being dislocated. One thing the Bible does do for people is it gives them a sense of identity and location, which is fundamental to understanding why we're here. We're made in the image of God, to image God, to reflect him, to engage in the kind of reflection, and faculties that he's given us. And hopefully to do it, in a positive way. I said, we're all made when god made man and woman and put them together. And he did it in a complimentary way. He did it as a way so that they would collaborate together to manage the creation. Well, they were supposed to make the creation hum. They were all made to be hummers. We're supposed to make the creation hum. If you ask yourself, is the creation humming? You look around and you go, well, it's a little bumpy. so it's making sense out of who we are that allows us to be who we're designed to be and to live out the way we were made and that gives us location. Most people are very dislocated in life and unfortunately most of our gospel presentations don't talk about that at all or very little. And yet that's very central to the way in which the Bible, presents. We're supposed to be in covenantal relationship with God. We're supposed to be connected to him, we're supposed to have a sense of who we are and who he is. And we're supposed to have a sense of who we are as human beings together as a result of that. And when you miss that, you're suspended in midair and people are saying, I'm trying to find myself, so we need to come alongside, walk alongside them and help them find themselves.
>> Peter Englert: Let's go deeper. I love that you brought up identity because it's a big question. I'm just going to pretend that you and I are walking alongside each other. This is the first time we've ever talked, at least I've read your books, but you haven't talked with me yet. But, Doctor Bach, I'm an entrepreneur and my identity is being an entrepreneur. I'm starting these businesses, I'm making money, I've moved up the social class. Ask. It just sounds escapist when you say I'm made in the image of God. some people, you said covenantal relationship. Can you tie the knots to that or tie the string to that? Of why should I even care? so, yeah, I'm pretending to be an entrepreneur. I'd love to hear your thoughts in that conversation.
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: Well, my question would be, so why does it matter to you to be an entrepreneur.
>> Peter Englert: So now I gotta go with this. no, you're asking that back.
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: Yeah, you opened up this lane. We're gonna drive down it. Go.
>> Peter Englert: No, this is great. Let's do it. You know, I grew up in a home where my dad was in a dead end job, and I totally wanted to make a huge difference in this world. And I wanted to make more money. I wanted to live. I wanted to give my kids what I didn't have. what does god have to do with all of that?
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: Well, the question is, what drives you in that regard? Is it self interest? Is it interest for your family? Some of those values really do matter. I can understand why you would go there. But do you understand, as an entrepreneur, what it is that you offer people and what it is about your entrepreneurship that serves and. And is useful, to them asking those kinds of questions? And are you thinking, as an entrepreneur, about what it takes to go beyond yourself and your own interests? Those kinds of questions. And what I'm trying to do, and, let me tell you a sidebar conversation. What I'm trying to do in doing this is to say that actually what the Bible says is, if I'm properly connected to god, I put myself in a better position to be properly connected to other people. M that's why the great commandment is what it is. You love god with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and you love your neighbor as yourself. That's a triangle. It's not just, me and my God, which is what the west tends to think about spirituality, as. It's my personal relationship with the living God. And that's the end of it. No, the Bible says I relate to God in such a way that I can function well in the world in which he's placed me in relationship to others and in relationship to the stewardship that I have for where God has me. And that's the location, if you will. It isn't just a privatized walk with God. So your being an entrepreneur can be a part of that story. And it may be that what drives you personally to be an entrepreneur is drawing on elements of your being made in the image of God that take you there. And so I'd love to help you discover what that is and how you can do that even better than what you're doing now and make sense out of it all. that would be how I would come alongside.
>> Peter Englert: That's really helpful. I think that that kind of gives our listeners the unique approach, that it's trying to draw together reality. I want to just shift a little bit. if someone said to you and asked you from the Gospels what story would be the best response to this question? Isn't Christianity escapist? What story would you take from the Gospels to kind of show what the Christianity view of this question is?
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: So how is it escapist to come into the world, serve people and give your life for people so that they, can have a better life? What's escapist about that? Because I've just summarized for you the story of Jesus. So I wouldn't take one story, I would take the whole of what Jesus is about and say, why is it that people matter enough that someone would do that? Let me add to it. Why is it that people matter enough that God would do that? Why is it that the short version of John 316 is God so loved the world that he gave and that's it? I mean, we know how the rest of the verse goes. He gave his only begotten son that whosoever should believe in him should not perish but have eternal life. That's not escapist. That's about as participatory as you can get in terms of caring for people. So the idea that Christianity only becomes escapist when someone who embraces Christianity says, I'm only going to care about how I live my personal, private, spiritual life, then Christianity becomes escapist. But that's not the biblical call of how, someone's supposed to live. I'm supposed to love God with all my heart, mind and soul and love my neighbor as myself, which assumes I'm connected to my neighbor and assumes I'm engaging with my neighbor. And that's about as participatory as it can get. So, yeah, so Christianity can be escapist when it's misapplied, but that's not the real Christianity.
>> Peter Englert: That's a lot right there. so we went back to the Bible, but let's kind of go back to today. So if Jesus, we Christians believe that Jesus is always present, omnipresent, but there's a difference. If Jesus was here today with us on this podcast, or with us in Rochester or Dallas, wherever Jesus would be, how do you think Jesus would engage this conversation, especially as you think of cultural engagement? in the sense of there's this feedback. Christians aren't engaged. They're only engaged in certain topics. What do you think Jesus would be doing differently today that some christians aren't doing?
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: Well, again, I'm going to go back to the great commandment. Because in the end, that's where God says, we're supposed to be. We're supposed to care for him and we're supposed to care for him enough to care for those that he made in his image.
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: and that's why you love your neighbor, like you love yourself, because you recognize the value that people have. Once I recognize the value that people have, that means that every relationship that I'm in, every encounter that I'm in becomes important. I don't have a secular sacred divide. Every moment is a sacred moment in some sense, and I suppose to treat it that way. And so, and again, I'm back. That's not escapist. That's about as participatory as you can get. so all of that is at work. So if Jesus were here, he would say, care about your neighbor. Care, about what goes on around you. Look to be that which contributes to society, not that which undercuts it, those kinds of things. And he'd be urging us to do that. In any and every sphere where God has us, there is no, mundane element to life. All our relationships are matter, and all of our relationships have a sacred dimension to them. So Christ is with us whether we recognize it or not. And every situation is filled with god, whether we recognize it or not. Again, that's not escapist. That's about as participatory as you can get.
>> Peter Englert: Let's go specific. if Jesus walked by a protest, and you could pick the protest, or maybe it's general, how do you think Jesus would handle that?
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: I think he would ask us to understand the nature, to work hard to understand the nature of the difference. I tell people there are three kinds of issues in the public square in the world. There are the genuine worldview clashes where the starting points are so different. It's very, very difficult to have a common conversation because the starting points are just so diverse and there are actually very few elements other than if you take, you know, is god in this or not out of that conversation. there are very few conversations that, that are there. I think the same sex conversation, the abortion conversation, are two of those and happen to be the two of the issues that the church is most focused on. They're the hardest conversations to have because the starting point for how someone inside the church who is kind of embraces the Bible and someone who doesn't, they're coming from such different places in terms of where they start out makes the conversation hard, by the way, it doesn't relieve us of the pastoral responsibility, how we treat people in those conversations, but it's a hard place to have a substantive conversation. Second is what I call same goal, different route. So if I say racial reconciliation, and I ask people, should the races be reconciled to one another, should they work towards reconciliation? I get very high poll numbers. I'd say politicians would say, man, I'd love that approval rating. I'd love to get a number that high. You ask the second question, how do we do that? Now you're in your conversation, but at least you know you're trying to get to the same point. Okay? So that's different than the first category. The third category is the hard one. And it's where most of our public discourse lies, where most of our protests show up. And that is, we live in a fallen world. Because we live in a fallen world, our values are not properly aligned to one another. They collide. Now that's an important observation, because that means that each side is bringing something, the conversation that one needs to pay attention to. But what happens when values collide in this third category is our political parties or ideologies or whatever, say, this is the value that I'm going to hold onto. This is the value that I, elevate. And then they try and either minimize or reduce the value that's in conflict with it, almost pretending that it's not there. And we have a binary conversation, okay? And it's which side are you gonna choose? And each side does it with a different value, with the value that's colliding. Okay? And we never have the conversation that we need. Conversation that we need is how do I align these values or calibrate them in relationship to each other? By taking both of them seriously. M. How do I do that? Because they're in misalignment. How do I realign them so they're in a better alignment? We never allow ourselves to have a conversation because we've chosen the value. Here I stand, I can do no other. And we pretended that the other value doesn't have enough value to value, and we don't have the conversation that we need. So many protests are about an imbalance that exists in our world. And so you ask, how would I go about it? I would go about having a conversation to discover the nature of that imbalance and wrestle with what the best calibration is with the set of concerns that's driving the people on each side of that difference and try and work through that. That's what I would. That would be the advice I would give and how to even see the conversation, because we don't even see the conversation well enough to have the conversation.
>> Peter Englert: As a follow up to everything you just said, and it might align closely or it might be different. How would Jesus engage social media?
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: Jesus might stay off social media. here's the problem with social media. Social media is an attempt to have a conversation where you've got a lot of people overhearing and can step in, which is not the best way to have a conversation. if you think about most of the conversations that you have that are personal and they're one to one, you don't have a lot of voices chiming in, in that one to one conversation. But social media takes place in an environment where I try and engage someone or even engage an idea, and I've got 20 different people, 40 different people, 100 different people chiming in. they all come with different backgrounds, different interests, different, concerns, etcetera. There's no way to manage that conversation and, it becomes chaotic. So, my point would be, I'm not sure Jesus would engage, at least in that kind of way, in social media, or if he engaged in social media, he would do it, I think, by attempting to present, the best things and the uplifting things in life. And he would stay, to some degree, out of the controversies because it's too multi layered a conversation to manage in the social media environment.
>> Peter Englert: So, ah, as we take this conversation to a close, I'm really glad we started here, and this being the first episode of the series, but let me see if I can sum up everything. And I won't do it necessarily in a theological way, but I want to kind of do it for our friends that might be outside of Christianity. Christianity at its healthiest is not escapist, but it's based in the reality of what happens on earth and the reality of heaven. Would you sum it up differently or how would you say it?
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: I'd add one element. And what happens in reality in the heart of each person.
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: Christianity is designed ultimately, to be a mirror that allows us to see us for who we were created to be and who we actually are and who we actually are in community, all those elements. And it's designed to help us be self critical. It's also designed to help us appreciate the fact of why we need God, why we all need God, not just why I need God, why we all need God, and what God asks of us to make us the best people he made us to be when he made us in his image. so for me, it's not about a God who's out there and God on the earth and God in heaven. It's about the God who has made me the way I am in here and wrestling with those questions and what my connection to him is supposed to be. On the one hand, and as a result of understanding who I am before him, it puts me in a better place to interact with those around me.
>> Peter Englert: I don't want to rush this because you've said this two or three times. I just want to make an observation and kind of hear your thoughts. I think something that I'm hearing that's wrong with the world because you even mentioned that there's escapism into pleasure binge watching that. In some ways, when we look to find ourselves as individuals, we look inward. But then when there's certain issues that are outside of us, we actually don't look inward, we look outward. So is that kind of the paradox that you're seeing? Is that essentially we're disconnected? Yeah.
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: Yes. And let me say it this way. I think when we tend to look outward, and particularly when it's things that seem to be bigger than us, we want to, we want to fix blame and try and figure out where it is rather than asking this question. And that is what could be my contribution to make this better.
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: So I may not be able to control the whole thing, but I can control the localized version of it that I get to participate in. I may not even be able to control that, but I may be able to contribute to that. So am I seeking to contribute to it in a way that is positive and beneficial, or am I so antagonized by what's going on that all I can do is complain about it? those kinds of questions? So, yeah, so I think I am saying that, let's be frank about this. A good hard look inside is hard. It doesn't come easy. So part of the reason I avoid it is because I don't want to look inside, because I don't want to see what's there. and then what Christianity does is it takes that muck, if I can say it that way, it takes that muck. And it says, there is one, someone who helps you deal with that muck. And two, there is a way to be a better, hopeful, more connected person. And that's very participatory because God is involved in helping us see ourselves. Right. God is involved in helping us make ourselves right. Actually, we don't make ourselves right. He does. By his grace. That produces a gratitude of response and a hope and a positiveness that takes that muck that was there and totally transforms it.
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: And so Christianity ultimately is supposed to be a place that's full of joy, peace, patience, etcetera. Because I understand where I stand with god and I understand that he stands for me and that he has forgiven me and that he's allowed me to participate in his grace. And that makes me a gracious person.
>> Peter Englert: That's a great place to close. The way that we close every episode is final, remarks. so like a good professor, I'll share some final remarks and then you can clean up whatever heresy I got wrong. Does that sound good?
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: Yeah. Okay. Well, hopefully there won't be much for me to say, but we'll see.
>> Peter Englert: Yeah, I think this is a very legitimate question and I think that starting here, there's so many layers to it. And I really appreciate, Doctor Bach, what you've said. and I love how you answer the question. Just read the Gospels and you'll see that Jesus doesn't escape. But as I was preparing and kind of praying about this episode, I kept on thinking about the woman at the well in just kind of a snapshot. And I would encourage all of our listeners, whether you follow Jesus or not, to read that story. And it's in John, chapter four. And I think what's powerful about that story is Jesus brings that woman the reality of the five marriages and all the things that has happened to her and because of her and all of that. But he also brings her the reality of living water. And that Christianity at its best is not condemning, but truthfully, it's gracious. but it's not going to just let things slide. But Jesus wasn't bringing that up to shame her. He was bringing that up to give her new life. And I think that as Christians and as followers of Jesus, ultimately reality is our friend. And to be able to lean in these topics and to see Jesus at work, that's essentially what he did on the cross. And resurrection is reminding us that we don't have to be scared of reality. Christianity is not escapism, but it actually lets you see life in a fuller, more beautiful picture.
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: So let me give you a single word to summarize where the faith is supposed to take us. And it comes out of one Peter 315, where the exhortation is, is that we ought to set Christ part and, we ought to be prepared to give a defense for the. Here's the single word, hope. That is in us. Christianity takes us to a place of hope. It takes. And hope is not a wish. Okay. Hope is a real anticipation of a restoration that god is in the midst of performing in a fallen creation.
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: And you get to be a part of that. You get to be a part of that restoration. You live out of that restoration, you experience that restoration, and you impart that restoration by how you live. And so I think the idea here is that there's hope. So we started off talking about depravity, which is pretty depressing. But we end talking about hope because that's encouraging and that's where God's supposed to take us through the gospel. That's not escapist. Doctor
>> Peter Englert: Bach, thank you so much for your generosity. you've got a lot of work out there. Where's the best place for people to follow you? And also you have a podcast out too.
>> Dr. Darrell Bock: Yeah, well, I'll direct them to the podcast. The podcast is called the Table podcast. So that's voice dts.edu tablepodcast. That's voice dts.edu tablepodcast. I'm also on Facebook at, ah, darrell lbach. that's another place where people can connect. But, in most of the work that we do, we do out of the Hendricks center at Dallas theological seminary. So if you go to, dts.edu and you go to the Hendricks center, you'll see a lot of the work that we're involved in.
>> Peter Englert: Awesome. And you can find out more about us@ygoodwypodcast.com. We're part of the Lumivaz network and we're brought to you by Brown Croft Community Church. Thank you so much for joining us. if you're on our website, click subscribe. You'll get this episode and many others. Thank you so much for joining us.