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What’s the story you can’t stop telling? Fran and Bethany are here to help you write, sell, and launch it.
Literary agent Bethany Saltman and bookstore owner Fran Hauser—also both critically acclaimed authors—host Bookbound, the podcast for non-fiction writers who want to learn how to transform their ideas, expertise, and obsessions into successful books and publishing deals. Fran and Bethany interview accomplished authors who share the strategies and surprises behind their bookbound journeys. These how-I-did-it conversations will inspire listeners to claim their own “author-ity” mindset and turn the story they can’t stop telling into a book the world needs to read.
To connect with the hosts and more, go to www.bookboundpodcast.com/
[00:00:00] Ruthie Ackerman: everything from relationships with bookstore owners and people that work there, which do make a difference because then your book. Gets highlighted or becomes a staff favorite, to seeing friends and even clients in person clients that I had never met in person only knew over Zoom. That was so wonderful.
[00:00:21] Bethany Saltman: Hi, I am Bethany Saltman, a literary agent and award-winning author.
[00:00:28] Fran Hauser: And I'm Fran Hauser, a bestselling author and independent bookstore owner.
[00:00:32] Bethany Saltman: And this is the BookBound podcast.
[00:00:35] Fran Hauser: On this podcast, we talk to women writers about their nonfiction books,
[00:00:39] Bethany Saltman: but instead of talking about what their book is about, we focus on the process of getting their book into the world.
[00:00:45] Fran Hauser: These how I Did it conversations will help you pitch your big idea,
[00:00:49] Bethany Saltman: write killer proposals.
[00:00:51] Fran Hauser: Find the right agent and publisher
[00:00:54] Bethany Saltman: and live an amazing BookBound life.
[00:01:01] Bethany Saltman: Welcome to the show everyone. I'm so excited to introduce you to our guest, Ruthie Ackerman. Ruthie is an award-winning journalist whose writing has appeared in Vogue, glamor, Forbes, the Atlantic, and many more. Her modern love essay for the New York Times became the launching point for her memoir, the Mother Code.
[00:01:19] Bethany Saltman: My Story of Love Loss, and the myths that Shape us. In 2019, Ruthie founded the Ignite Writers Collective, and since then, she's become a sought after book coach and developmental editor. In our conversation, Ruthie shares so many powerful insights, including what it takes to turn a personal story into a universal one, the emotional ROI of a book tour, and why social media is becoming less and less essential to an author's platform.
[00:01:48] Bethany Saltman: Praise the Lord. We also talk about the important role her modern love essay played in shaping her book, and it might not be what you think, but I'll let the conversation do the rest of the talking. Let's dive into our chat with Ruthie.
[00:02:00] Fran Hauser: Hi,
[00:02:01] Fran Hauser: Ruthie.
[00:02:02] Ruthie Ackerman: Hi. So good to be here.
[00:02:05] Ruthie Ackerman: Thank
[00:02:05] Bethany Saltman: Ruthie. It's so nice to see you.
[00:02:08] Ruthie Ackerman: Bethany. It has been so long of hearing about you, reading your book, talking to a friend about you, and now we're here Finally.
[00:02:17] Bethany Saltman: Yes. Wonderful. I'm so excited. So we'd like to start every, um, episode asking this question, and I cannot wait to hear. How you respond. 'cause I've been really enjoying reading your book. So how did you know that, um,you were on a deeply personal journey, how did you know, or when did you know that this was more than just a personal journey or obsession or even an intellectual pursuit and an actual book?
[00:02:46] Ruthie Ackerman: It is such a good question, and there's many different ways to answer that. I had always known I wanted to write a memoir, and there's many strands in the book that I had. Thought would be individual books. So for example, there's a lot about my relationship with my mother in the book, and I had planned on writing a whole book about my relationship with my mother.
[00:03:10] Ruthie Ackerman: And then at another point I thought I'd write a whole book about my relationship with my brother, who I talk about. I call him Adam in the book. And he was born with a triple whammy of rare genetic disorders. And I thought I'd write all about trying to be his guardian and take care of him.
[00:03:28] Ruthie Ackerman: And then I thought that I would write about my divorce. So this book has taken many different. So I was already, I guess, primed in some way to be thinking about this whole story as a book, but I wasn't sure if it was multiple books or one book. And then when I wrote my modern Love essay, which was published in 2019, and I always like to say that I wrote like.
[00:03:57] Ruthie Ackerman: Five versions of that essay that were all rejected before that one was accepted. And when I wrote that essay, I said, oh, this is the kind of through line. And that essay was about how I had frozen my eggs when I was in my first marriage and how when I. Was finally ready to use those eggs. None of them ended up being viable.
[00:04:22] Ruthie Ackerman: And I thought, oh, this is the through line or the lens through which to tell this whole story. And all those other strands I had been thinking about kind of, I don't know if I wanna say took a backseat, but were all in sort of service to, to that piece of the story.
[00:04:40] Fran Hauser: you basically got the editor's validation, right? Because they rejected the first four. And then this one, they said, yep, this is the one.
[00:04:50] Ruthie Ackerman: This is the one exactly. But I will say this because I already had an agent at the time because I had another book that was supposed to be published, another whole story for another day. But, I had an agent and she went and started talking to various editors about my idea. And the response we had gotten was fertility books and motherhood books don't sell.
[00:05:15] Ruthie Ackerman: And so. I was sort of thinking, I guess maybe I don't write this as a book because it's not gonna sell, or no one's really interested in this topic area. But then again, I was sort of angry too because I'm like. I don't really see this as a fertility or a motherhood book only, even though it's kind of, unfortunately with the name Mother in the title, it's gonna be seen as a motherhood book.
[00:05:43] Ruthie Ackerman: but it's about so much more. It's about a woman whose life sort of veers off course, and so I felt a little pigeonholed by this idea that it's only a fertility or a motherhood book.
[00:05:54] Bethany Saltman: Well, it's such a great story for our listeners because for so many reasons. One, just the idea that you, you pitched or you, you actually wrote four versions of a modern love essay and the fifth one was. accepted. So please, you know, I want this in flashing lights for our listeners. and this is a professional writer, so that's really amazing.
[00:06:16] Bethany Saltman: And I mean you say for another time, but we love the conversations about this agent and that agent and what happened to that story, and that's, you know, part of the juice of this. But, I love the idea that it took you. Five versions of one essay to figure out the through line because well, you know, actually how many people come to what they think is going to be their book. And you know, and I'll say, this is a great idea. I'm totally into it. But a great start, but this isn't the idea. you haven't found your idea yet, and you know, people say, what do you mean this is the idea? And you know, you just have to kind of work with them and say, I know there's a story here.
[00:06:52] Bethany Saltman: This isn't it yet. You haven't found it yet.
[00:06:55] Fran Hauser: I'm so curious too, Ruthie, because you're a book coach and you've helped so many people get
[00:07:01] Fran Hauser: their books out into the world, like what was the process like for you? I mean, in coaching yourself through this process? Was it easier or harder than coaching others?
[00:07:15] Ruthie Ackerman: It is always harder, I think, for ourselves. I mean, Bethany and both of you, I wanna hear what you guys think, but I just think we are kind of blinded by our own stories and what's in. We feel an emotional connection to something that might not be something that an audience is that interested in. It's also what was hard for me to see was what the universal story was going to be.
[00:07:44] Ruthie Ackerman: So I think you sort of started to hit on this, Bethany, that this is a very personal story, but it was only through writing the book that I started to see, oh, this is. Bigger story about motherhood narratives and, how patriarchy tells us what motherhood has to look like and how it might be very different than, uh, the experiences we're hoping to have as mothers or it just as women, as non mothers.
[00:08:12] Ruthie Ackerman: And so I started, kind of getting into the ideas around these binaries. Women are sort of boxed. Into by society, but I thought this was gonna be purely a personal story, and it was only through going through the process that I was like, oh, now I see the universal, which is something I tell my writers, but it's hard when you're in that dark tunnel and you're writing, and I had by this point, already had my book deal, by the way, and so I was like calling my editor and saying, I think you bought a book that like, I don't know what this.
[00:08:47] Ruthie Ackerman: Is actually, you bought this book and doesn't have all the pieces that I thought it was gonna have. It doesn't have a universal, and she's like, just keep going. It will. And it did, but it's hard when you're in it to see it.
[00:09:02] Bethany Saltman: I've studied a lot of screenwriting and so the way I often talk to my clients about it is the A story and the B story
[00:09:08] Bethany Saltman: and the thing that you think is the, A story often ends up being the B story and there's something bigger.
[00:09:14] Bethany Saltman: it's really hard to find.
[00:09:15] Fran Hauser: and isn't this also why I think it, it's so important to not write alone
[00:09:21] Fran Hauser: and in a vacuum because it is so hard to go from the personal to the universal. Right? it's easier for us when we're helping others
[00:09:29] Fran Hauser: to look at it from a 10,000 foot view and, guide them and give them some prompts and thought starters and,whether you're working with a coach or you're working with a, a circle of other writers, is so important to not go down this journey or to, you know, down this path alone.
[00:09:46] Fran Hauser:
[00:09:46] Ruthie Ackerman: and I should say I had a book coach myself, more like a developmental editor that worked with me outside of my editor from Random House. I had a book incubator class, a year long class that I was taking. Even though I teach those myself, I was in one. I also had a group of beta readers, some who were writers, and some who were friends, and some who didn't know my story at all.
[00:10:16] Ruthie Ackerman: 'cause I wanted to make sure that someone who doesn't know me would still feel connected to the story. So there were a lot of eyes on this book.
[00:10:23] Bethany Saltman: So tell us the story about, so you got the modern love piece published and you said, oh, I think this is the through line. Then what? Yeah.
[00:10:33] Ruthie Ackerman: I had a very big misconception about what a modern love essay meant. Like I thought I would have a modern love essay and then my whole life would change, and all of a sudden. Everyone would want me to write a book.
[00:10:46] Ruthie Ackerman: And I just like thought, the path would be paved in gold after that did not happen. Of course. the naive part of me. and then after that then, my agents spoke to these editors and they were sort of like, not that into the idea, and I thought they were gonna be really excited.
[00:11:03] Ruthie Ackerman: So that was a disappointment. And then. What happened, which is I think what always happens was I figured out that I needed to write the book that I wanted to write and that I believed in, and that I would have to have faith in this book, that it could be something before anyone else would, and so I just had to.
[00:11:25] Ruthie Ackerman: Get going and write the book. And if I believed it was a book that was not solely a motherhood or a fertility book, I had to show my agent and show the, the editors what this book could be. what I did. So that was from 2019 and we finally sold the book to Random House. December, 2022, and my modern love came out in, I think it was June or July, 2019.
[00:11:51] Ruthie Ackerman: So whatever that math is, two and a half, four years.
[00:11:55] Bethany Saltman: two really important questions 'cause I know our listeners are wondering, A, how did you have the agent in the first place,
[00:12:01] Bethany Saltman: and B, did you write the book and not the proposal?
[00:12:05] Ruthie Ackerman: so I had another book that was sold, uh, called Free Fall and it was a memoir about my ex who had taken his own life after about six months of being together. And I had written a whole memoir. It was sold to Harper Collins. It was a very big. Deal. and I had written the whole thing and at some point my book proposal leaked and my ex's family ended up getting a lawyer and.
[00:12:39] Ruthie Ackerman: not suing me, but saying that they would sue Harper Collins and Harper Collins pulled out of the book deal,
[00:12:46] Bethany Saltman: Oh, Ruthie.
[00:12:47] Ruthie Ackerman: it was this horrible, horrible thing where you know how long it takes, not only to like. Get an idea and then get the book deal and then write the book. But all of that had happened and then the book deal was pulled out from under me.
[00:13:05] Ruthie Ackerman: So it was this horrible time, and that happened in April, 2019. And so I was crushed during that time and I didn't know what to do. I thought my book career was over because I also thought like. How would I ever get another book deal after losing this one? the only thing I could think of to do was to try writing something else.
[00:13:29] Ruthie Ackerman: And I knew I had other stories in me and that's what led to this me to write this modern love. But, I like called everyone I knew that was an author and, no one had really ever heard of anything like this happening, of a book deal being pulled. But now I know other people and it's awful.
[00:13:47] Ruthie Ackerman: But you get back up and you keep going.
[00:13:50] Fran Hauser: first of all, I'm so sorry that you went through that. I can't even imagine how difficult that was. so when that happened, what advice was your agent giving you? Like, was she like, okay, get right back up on the saddle, let's write something else. Or was she like, take a minute, you know, maybe take a little pause. I'm so curious, like what that conversation was like with, with your agent.
[00:14:13] Ruthie Ackerman: well, I had a lawyer. I mean, this was like everyone layering up. It was not a pretty site, and the lawyer had told my agent and I, why don't you just write this as a novel? Write it as a novel. It's a great story. But I had decided at that point that. You know what? Maybe the universe is telling me something.
[00:14:34] Ruthie Ackerman: This is not the book. And I had written it the way I wanted to and it didn't happen. And so here we are. So my agent said like, take some time and come back to me and let me know. And that's when I came back to her after the Modern Love came out and said, I think this is my book, and this is a more universal story.
[00:14:54] Ruthie Ackerman: And that's when she talked to the editors and they were like, mm.
[00:14:58] Fran Hauser: So you did not get a deal then just based on the modern love essay that you wrote. They were still like, no, we're not, we're not interested in this. So then you decided, you know what, I'm just gonna write the book. I'm just gonna write it and then we're gonna go back
[00:15:11] Fran Hauser: to the
[00:15:12] Fran Hauser: editors.
[00:15:13] Fran Hauser:
[00:15:13] Ruthie Ackerman: Yes, but I didn't write the whole book so this is the thing that you guys probably know too, right? in order to get to a proposal, I had to write enough of the book to know what the proposal was gonna even look like because it's hard, at least for me and a lot of my clients.
[00:15:31] Ruthie Ackerman: It's really hard. Without writing and just letting it flow to sort of understand what the full narrative ARC's gonna be. it was like a year plus writing the book and I probably got like halfway through and then I transitioned to proposal I got the proposal down my agent and I, went back and forth and then the book.
[00:15:56] Ruthie Ackerman: We went out with it in I think October of 22. But I think another interesting thing to note for your listeners is that I think we went out to something like 39 editors and thir. We got 37 rejections on it, and then there were two editors that were still interested. But the overwhelming feedback was that it was too memoir focused that I needed to add more.
[00:16:20] Ruthie Ackerman: Plus research, journalistic investigation, whatever you wanna call it. and so my book actually didn't sell on my proposal. I had to go back and write a two page memo that kind of outlined the plus parts that I was going to add in the hybrid parts I would add into my memoir, and that's how I ended up selling my book.
[00:16:45] Ruthie Ackerman: that was something else that I hadn't really heard. I mean, a lot of things have happened to me that I haven't really heard a lot,
[00:16:51] Ruthie Ackerman: which was good, but also hard because when after it sold and it was time to sit down to write, I didn't have a proposal as a roadmap. I had to start from scratch at that point.
[00:17:01] Ruthie Ackerman: 'cause I only had the two page
[00:17:02] Ruthie Ackerman: memo.
[00:17:03] Bethany Saltman: Hey there, book Bond friends, if you're a fan of this podcast, you've definitely heard us talk about the agony and the ecstasy of the non-fiction book proposal. Yes, proposals are challenging, and yes, they can take a while, but we truly believe that for non-fiction writers mastering the art of the book proposal, and we really do think it's an art isn't just necessary to land a book deal.
[00:17:27] Bethany Saltman: It's one of the best ways to become the expert of your own topic. And to sharpen your craft. That's why Fran and I wrote our ebook. It's called BookBound, A tried and true method for turning your great idea into a standout book proposal. It's available now@bookboundpodcast.com slash ebook for just 1999.
[00:17:47] Bethany Saltman: So if you're serious about your idea, but not quite ready to invest in coaching or courses, this is the perfect place to start. Download our ebook today and take the first real step toward writing the book. Only you can write.
[00:18:03] Fran Hauser: So I actually have a question for both of you, because you both have. More experience with memoir, whereas my experience is more with prescriptive nonfiction.
[00:18:13] Fran Hauser: I wonder if with memoir, it is important to write more of the book before you work on the proposal. Whereas with prescriptive nonfiction, like I'm, I'm working, I'm writing my third book right now. and for me, I only wrote like. Two chapters of the book, you know, while I was working on my book proposal. So
[00:18:36] Fran Hauser: do you think that's too, like generic of a statement to make about memoir versus prescriptive nonfiction or how, what's your experience been?
[00:18:45] Bethany Saltman: Fran, I bet if you thought about it for a couple minutes, you would be able to know exactly what I'm about to say I don't think it's the form. I think it's the writer. So I'm a pantser, not a planner. And you are a planner, not a pants. know, I would have to write before I even knew my idea if I was writing the most prescriptive book in the world and I just can't plan, I don't, my body doesn't work that way.
[00:19:10] Fran Hauser: that's.
[00:19:10] Fran Hauser: so interesting. Whereas I am the planner. I'm all about like the framework and like the.
[00:19:16] Fran Hauser: Proposal template. And, I spent, you know, a year working on the proposal for my current book,the planner versus pants thing, I, I totally get. What about you, Ruthie? What, what do you think?
[00:19:28] Ruthie Ackerman: I think Bethany's Right. That's basically what I was going to say. 'cause I work with a lot of of writers that are writing. Prescriptive books like you're talking about, thought leadership books, big ideas, books, and they need to write through those ideas to even know what the framework is. So I do think it depends
[00:19:46] Bethany Saltman: obviously we all need the framework. We all need the proposal. We all need to get to the same place to sell the book. How you get there is gonna be really different. And I do think it's interesting though, to think about, with all that said, what you're saying is actually pretty interesting. And it could be that in a memoir you're gonna just need to unearth more.
[00:20:08] Bethany Saltman: but I think, you know, it's probably a little bit of both.
[00:20:11] Ruthie Ackerman: Yeah, I will say that, so the first two memoirs, that I wrote, the ones that sold both of them, I had to write a a lot, but I'm working on a third memoir right now, and this one. Maybe because some of the ideas for this memoir were, were unearthed in the writing of the mother code, but now I, I see the full narrative arc and I just wrote three chapters and an outline for the whole thing, and I was able to do it just fairly quickly because I kind of already had marinated in the ideas.
[00:20:44] Ruthie Ackerman: I think
[00:20:45] Bethany Saltman: Congratulations. That's exciting.
[00:20:47] Ruthie Ackerman: Thank you. We'll see. We'll see. This is, I haven't even showed my agent yet. This is like very new,
[00:20:53] Bethany Saltman: that's great. So, so will you then transition into
[00:20:57] Bethany Saltman: proposal?
[00:20:58] Ruthie Ackerman: So I looked back at my contract and because I, I worked with Random House on this book, they get first right of refusal and they, so in the contract it says they'll take a look at either three chapters and a full outline or a proposal of 75. I think it says 75 pages or less, something like that. I can go either way.
[00:21:23] Ruthie Ackerman: But the thing would be that if Random House did not take the book based on the three chapters in the outline, I'd have to then transition into a proposal to sell to someone else.
[00:21:33] Ruthie Ackerman: have to be ready to write the proposal.
[00:21:36] Bethany Saltman: but it sounds like three chapters in an outline is perfect, especially since that's how you wanna write anyway. That's
[00:21:40] Ruthie Ackerman: Exactly, exactly.
[00:21:43] Ruthie Ackerman: So it's forcing me to be a planner when I'm usually a panther. So.
[00:21:46] Bethany Saltman: Yeah.
[00:21:47] Fran Hauser: Oh my gosh. I love this. Ruthie, tell us about the title, the Mother Code, because you definitely use that phrase in the book. I'm just, I'm wondering, was it the title first and then you incorporate it into the book? Or did it come, did the title come from your writing?
[00:22:06] Ruthie Ackerman: actually the first title was, I'm giving you guys some top secret information here. It was. Other in parentheses, so mother, but the other is in parentheses. then I was told that that seemed very like academic, like if I was doing some sort of like research paper. and then I came back with the mother code and at first the mother code was supposed to be referring to the flaw that I thought existed in my genetic code, which was the reason I thought I shouldn't have a child.
[00:22:42] Ruthie Ackerman: This sort of curse that hovered over me my whole life that told me that. The women in my family all had abandoned their children. This was like the family mythology that I lived with and that if I had a child, I would a abandon my child too. So that mother code was the flaw that was in my genetic code, or I believed was in my genetic code.
[00:23:02] Ruthie Ackerman: And then in the writing of the book, as I realized the more universal story that I was talking about earlier, this idea That each of us carries our own mother code story or human code, or parent code story, whatever we wanna call it. Then the title shifted to really be about how there isn't a binary of childless cat lady and trad wife or Brady Bunch woman there.
[00:23:34] Ruthie Ackerman: It really is. about how we all have our own. There are as many narratives as there are people, and so that's what the mother code became.
[00:23:44] Ruthie Ackerman: So
[00:23:45] Ruthie Ackerman: it went from personal to universal.
[00:23:46] Ruthie Ackerman: but it took writing the entire book before I realized that. And also I wasn't sure if the mother code was supposed to be the like outdated codes that we've outgrown or the new codes that we're trying to move into.
[00:24:02] Ruthie Ackerman: There were like all of these ideas around what the mother could actually. Stood for, so it took a lot.
[00:24:09] Bethany Saltman: Yeah. Well, I actually think that that really speaks to why it's such a powerful title. Fran and I always talk about, um, titles and. Terms of guiding image metaphors or tropes, and the more layered the title is, the more juice, the better it will carry a book. So everything that you're saying, I think really speaks to why this is a really great title because it has so many meanings.
[00:24:34] Ruthie Ackerman: Thank you for saying that. That really resonates with me. And the other thing I'm thinking of is code really refers to DNA code, genetic code, which also relates to where I end up in the book, which is having a daughter using a donor egg. So in the end, I don't get to use, or I should, I probably wouldn't say it that way in the end, I don't end up using my DNA, which was such a.
[00:25:03] Ruthie Ackerman: Big sort of, worry for me earlier in the book because of all the things I thought my DNA had carried. So this idea of genes really runs through the whole book. And so the code also refers to that.
[00:25:18] Bethany Saltman: so Ruthie, I'd love to hear you talk about, something that all of our listeners are always wondering about. and I'm really curious about how you position yourself in terms of the old platform question. I have this really wonderful idea that we're moving through. Some of the really terrible ideas about that. and as an agent, I work with people who are experts in their field and they don't have a single follower on, on Instagram. but they're experts and, and very influential and have a lot of reach. And this is, you know how a lot of these books are being published. I'm hopeful, but it's an old idea and I'd love to hear your take on it, as an author, but also as a book coach and how you, what you're seeing out there and how you talk to people about it.
[00:26:07] Ruthie Ackerman: so I feel like I did not have a big platform when I sold my book. I don't know that I do, even now, I think I had maybe 1200 followers on Instagram, so it wasn't like I had a huge Instagram. I. Did have a substack, but I had moved over from MailChimp and it was fairly new. Maybe a thousand subscribers on substack.
[00:26:30] Ruthie Ackerman: But the thing that I think I did have, and that what I talked to my clients about is this idea of micro communities, which is where I think we're moving. It's like, do you have influence in smaller niche communities? That can then help spread the word. And so I have my own writer's collective where I teach my courses and work one-on-one with people writing books.
[00:26:57] Ruthie Ackerman: So that's one community. I also am part of numerous women's networks, and I'm also, I mean, any number of things, right? By Substack, so those micro communities. there's like tentacles to 'em, they can tap into others. And I think that positioning around that is, I'm hoping as well more of the trend we're going to see because who has, you know, millions of followers like a celebrity.
[00:27:27] Ruthie Ackerman: And we also know that, that even celebrities that have millions of followers don't necessarily sell books.
[00:27:32] Fran Hauser: That's what I was just gonna say. Right. I've seen celebrities that have literally millions of followers on social media and their books don't become best sellers.
[00:27:41] Fran Hauser: So I'm really hopeful, like, you know, both of you that we're, we're moving away from this, you know, number of social media followers, as a metric that, publishing houses look at, and that it is more about what is your influence in your community.
[00:27:56] Fran Hauser: Like, what does that look like? I'm also really curious, Ruthie, um.What's worked for you, like from a marketing perspective? your book came out a few months ago
[00:28:06] Fran Hauser: now. do you have a sense of what's moved the needle?
[00:28:10] Ruthie Ackerman: I do so far. I mean, hopefully it, there's gonna be more and more, there's more runway, but I do, and I'm actually planning on writing about this in Substack because I've been finding it so interesting. So I didn't get the big review in the New York Times that I had hoped for the New Yorker, New York magazine, these kinds of things that I was like.
[00:28:31] Ruthie Ackerman: You know, really hoping for in the beginning. What did move the needle or a few things? One, writing essays, a book adjacent essays. So kind of companion pieces, really helped. So I wrote pieces for, well, there were excerpts in The Guardian, Oprah Daley. I wrote pieces for, romper. Time, and I just wrote one for Lit Hub today, actually, which was really great.
[00:28:59] Ruthie Ackerman: The other thing that really moved the needle and sort of the big win was I was on NPR All Things Considered, and that was huge. And then that led to my book being chosen for book of the day from NPR and then on NPRs Best of the year so far for 2025. So that was like the gift that kept on giving, which was huge.
[00:29:22] Ruthie Ackerman: But I will say the other things that really helped were, bulk buys. So I had two different larger brand partnerships, uh, in the mom space. And so having a book about motherhood allowed me to sort of. Go, you know, go into, spread into that space more. And there are a lot of people that are interested in, in motherhood, whatever the editor said, that's not true because there's tons of people interested in motherhood, which is not a niche subject.
[00:29:53] Ruthie Ackerman: you know what, the thing that I talk to my clients about is that no matter what you're writing about, there are going to be sort of these larger communities around it. And that, that's finding a way to leverage that. the other thing that I found really moved the needle was, I was featured as the lead, story in Most Powerful Women Daily Fortunes newsletter that used to be called The Broad Sheet.
[00:30:20] Ruthie Ackerman: And that really helped. And so those kinds of like substack or kind of niche newsletters, if you can get kind of spotlighted in some of those that is. Really key. I feel like most sales came from a kind of substack book tour that I did where I went and got like q and As and profiles and got people to spotlight me.
[00:30:46] Ruthie Ackerman: And I did the same for other writers, spotlighting them.
[00:30:50] Fran Hauser: what's great too about Substack is that. Everyone's looking for content. So if, if you can provide them with excerpts from the book or, you know, here's kind of like a q and A that you can run with me. Like you're, you're making their job easier,
[00:31:05] Ruthie Ackerman: platonic love as a really fun substack and they asked me for like some of my favorite wrecks, like just not even book stuff. And that got me, I saw, like I noticed in my author portal when you can see your sales like that got me so much.
[00:31:21] Ruthie Ackerman: You don't know. And also I should say IRL events like book tour.
[00:31:25] Bethany Saltman: Ruthie, did you hire someone to help you with PR or was it all Random House and you
[00:31:30] Ruthie Ackerman: I did hire someone to help me with PR in addition, and a whole nother podcast would be what, what worked with that and what didn't, because I also feel like they were great. and at the same time, most of the things that I got were things that came through, connections I had.
[00:31:48] Ruthie Ackerman: That's the truth. And I am a, I'm a journalist and have been for many years, so I happen to have a lot of connections. So in a way, maybe like I was an ideal client, they kept saying because it's like they could help me, but I had the in.
[00:32:03] Fran Hauser: And by the way, that also goes back to
[00:32:05] Fran Hauser: platform, right? When, so when you're pitching.
[00:32:09] Fran Hauser: the marketing section of the proposal, I'm sure that that was a big part of it, was that you were a journalist, that you do have these media connections. Right. It's helpful. It's why
[00:32:17] Fran Hauser: we have to get really creative and think about every single thing that can help.
[00:32:22] Fran Hauser: One thing that I saw that you posted, I can't remember if it was Instagram or if you wrote this on your substack, but I loved it. You wrote about. How a book tour may not always carry a financial ROI, but it will always carry an emotional ROI.
[00:32:39] Fran Hauser: tell us what you mean by that. a bookstore tour, carrying an emotional
[00:32:44] Fran Hauser: ROI.
[00:32:45] Ruthie Ackerman: everything from relationships with bookstore owners and people that work there, which do make a difference because then your book. Gets highlighted or becomes a staff favorite, to seeing friends and even clients in person clients that I had never met in person only knew over Zoom. That was so wonderful.
[00:33:07] Ruthie Ackerman: And then there's also the like, ego part of it, of like you spent so long in a room by yourself writing this thing and now to get to be in the world talking about the ideas that are so important to you. There's nothing better than that. I mean, I did the math and I had a receipt in my substack that was like, look, there's no way I ever made back the money that I laid out for this or the time because I don't know about you guys, but my publisher was not paying for my book tour.
[00:33:40] Ruthie Ackerman: So
[00:33:42] Ruthie Ackerman: all the time of booking stuff and the money will never get back, but I still think it was worth it.
[00:33:48] Fran Hauser: Yeah, and it's so great to be intentional in that way. Like to know like, it's not all about the financial piece. it's so fun now being a bookstore owner and being able to. Host authors and you know, whether it's an author talk or a meet and greet and just seeing like their faces light up when they see their family and friends come to the bookstore to support them. You know, or when there's like an open q and a and they get asked a really interesting question and it's, it's just so. Joyful for them and for me and for the staff at the bookstore. So the emotional piece after this very, very long journey of pitching the book, writing the book, getting the book into production and distribution and getting it out there, making room and time for that in your life is really important.
[00:34:40] Bethany Saltman: Well, and you know, it's reminding me like we get so into the process, especially the three of us, that we forget that this is about changing the world. We're writing these books to communicate something to actually affect and impact human beings. And I mean, it seems crazy, but we can kind of lose track of that.
[00:35:02] Bethany Saltman: So I just, I love this idea of getting out there and going to the bookstores and talking about the book and changing people's lives.
[00:35:10] Ruthie Ackerman: that's really meaningful to me too because I was thinking when I was thinking about the audience for the book that I really wanted, of course I want everyone to read the book, but also I was thinking a lot about younger reader. Because I was thinking about who I was and the books that I wanted to be reading when I was in my late twenties, thirties, and even early forties.
[00:35:32] Ruthie Ackerman: And then to be in those bookstores and see young people that are having the same questions, having me sign their book and tell me they're like excited that someone's. You know, thinking about these things too, or someone that's ahead of them a little bit on the journey is, is thinking about these ideas that just was so meaningful to be like, oh, this is who I thought my audience was gonna be.
[00:35:55] Ruthie Ackerman: And look, they're here.
[00:35:57] Ruthie Ackerman: Well, maybe that's a good place to end.
[00:35:59] Fran Hauser: Yeah, I think so. That was kind of perfect. the only other thing, Ruthie, that I. I would love to, just for you to leave everybody with is just any kind of final piece of advice or like anything that you would've done differently throughout this process. I know our listeners always love kind of hearing that,
[00:36:18] Ruthie Ackerman: One is in terms of book tour, not to measure my success based on the number of people in the room in book tour, because looking back, I had. Stops where I had 40 people in a room and I sold five books and I had stopped where I had 10 people in a room and I sold 10 books.
[00:36:36] Ruthie Ackerman: So back to the ROI piece there's no telling, just because you have a big crowd doesn't mean you're gonna sell a ton of books. So that's one piece. Another is, uh, just thinking about marketing plan, is that the people that were. Most helpful. Were not necessarily the ones that I was thinking about.
[00:36:54] Ruthie Ackerman: So like I went to grad school at NYU, and so I'm gonna have an alum event at the J School at NYU in September. And so I think we, a lot of my clients, when we're building out a marketing plan, they're not thinking about their like church or temple. They're, where did they go to high school or grad school or college or whatever.
[00:37:16] Ruthie Ackerman: There's so many. Groups that we're all a part of that we kind of forget about. and that also people in our extended network
[00:37:26] Ruthie Ackerman: just writing those emails to be like, here's what would be helpful. And you'd be surprised at kind of who's gonna stand up and raise that hand.
[00:37:35] Fran Hauser: It's so true. Ruthie, I feel like we could talk to you all day. There's so much to learn from you, like not just as an author, but also as a coach, and tell our listeners where can they find you
[00:37:48] Ruthie Ackerman: Oh my gosh, everywhere. Substack. My substack is the spark. So you can find me on Substack. You can find me on Instagram at r ru Ackerman. You can find me on LinkedIn at ruthie Ackerman, mother code at your indie bookstore. Oh, my website, ruthie ackerman.com.
[00:38:09] Fran Hauser: And this book, by the way, let's, I just have to show it
[00:38:12] Ruthie Ackerman: Oh,
[00:38:12] Fran Hauser: part.
[00:38:15] Fran Hauser: It is so good. It's just so beautifully written. congratulations, Ruthie, on everything, all of the accolades that you're getting.
[00:38:24] Fran Hauser: You deserve every single one.
[00:38:26] Ruthie Ackerman: Thank you for having me. I love you guys. Bethany, we should talk. I bet I have clients that you might, you might like for Agenting and all of that good stuff. And Fran, I can't wait to be able to get up to your bookstore. That's like on my list of bookstore tour
[00:38:44] Fran Hauser: We would love to have you.
[00:38:46] Ruthie Ackerman: We hope you enjoyed this episode. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and consider leading a rating or review to help other writers find us. And don't forget to check out or read like a writer book club, and our downloadable BookBound proposal guide, both designed to support you as you bring your book idea to life.
[00:39:08] Fran Hauser: You can also find us on Instagram at BookBound podcast. Happy writing.