After IV

"I'm so ready to graduate! I think..."

Let's learn to navigate endings, new beginnings, and the space in between in the first episode of our new series Finding Your Footing. InterVarsity alumna, Kathy Shiau, joins us for a brief tutorial of William Bridges' model of transition.

This one's for you, Alumni!

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Creators & Guests

Host

Jon Steele

Jon Steele, a 2011 InterVarsity alumnus from Minnesota State Mankato, lives in Mankato, MN with his wife Kaitlynn and their two daughters. He’s been on staff with InterVarsity since 2012 and has been hosting After IV since its debut in 2020. He is also the producer and primary editor for the podcast. Jon enjoys gaming, reading, and leading worship at his church.

Guest

Kathy Shiau

Kathy is a University of Michigan alumna and now works with InterVarsity as an Interim Ministry Associate.

Editor

Stephen Albi

Stephen, his wife Ashley (a fellow IV'er), and their two daughters live in Central Illinois. Stephen is a pastor, avid rugby fan, and has his own line of homemade hot sauces!

What is After IV?

Hey, InterVarsity alumni! This is After IV, your podcast for navigating life after graduation. This is both an exciting and potentially tricky transition you’re making and you might feel a little unsure about the coming weeks and months. We’re here to provide you with expert advice, practical skills, and plenty of encouragement as you learn how to keep saying "Yes!" to Jesus in your new context. This is After IV, and this podcast is for you, alumni.

After IV
Finding Your Footing: In Transition (Pt 1)

Welcome

Jon Steele 0:00
Hey what's up, Alumni! Welcome to After IV, the podcast that's just for you. I'm your host Jon Steele and it's great to be back with some new episodes after a short break. A special shout out to any brand new 2023 grads who are tuning in for the first time. Welcome to life after graduation, Alumni! I'm glad you're joining us because we want to be available to you as you start this new season of life.

One of the ways we're planning to do that is with this new series that we're kicking off today called Finding Your Footing: Navigating the Post-graduation Transition. In the coming episodes, we're going to be talking about all kinds of skills and mindsets to help with this new season of life. From living with roommates to using InterVarsity experience as a resume builder. From clarifying your calling to identifying a healthy church. And even more than that. All topics to help you get started with firmer footing after graduation. But first we're going meta. We're not just talking about the skills to help with transition. We're going to talk about transition itself. What is transition? What does it look like? How do I navigate it? For the next two episodes, we're joined by InterVarsity alumna Kathy Shiau, who works with teams who are experiencing transitions in leadership. She's learned a really helpful framework that she's going to share with us to help us navigate our own seasons of transition. We'll start with that conversation today and wrap it up in our next episode. So let's get to know Kathy and start getting familiar with some helpful practices for understanding and dealing with transition. This one's for you, Alumni.

Musical Interlude

Interview

Jon Steele
Well hello Kathy, welcome to the podcast.

Kathy Shiau 1:34
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Jon Steele 1:36
I'm so glad that we get to talk about this. We get to spend some time talking about transition. This podcast is really so much of what we talk about is in is about transition kind of big picture but you know, we're gonna get sort of we're gonna get meta, we're gonna talk about the topic. So I'm looking forward to being able to talk together and hopefully share some useful information around transition and working through transition. But before we do that, Kathy, would you just help us get to know you a little bit? Who are you? What are the things that you enjoy doing? Tell us about your family, your work. Whatever it might be. Help us get to know Kathy a bit today.

Kathy Shiau 2:08
Yeah, sure. So my name is Kathy Shiau. I work with university staff. My current role with the ministry is I'm part of this mom national team called in our ministry. So it's very hard to describe what we do, but essentially, when there are managers who take their sabbaticals and things like that our small team gets sent out to fill those gaps. So I'm working with different staff teams, every six months, and it's really fun. It is a job with lots of transitions, for sure. For myself personally and then helping the people I'm leading, also go through transitions. I am married to Dan and my husband is also on staff with InterVarsity we've got two boys who are 10 and eight and we live in the Chicago area in Illinois.

Jon Steele 3:04
Okay, that's really great, very helpful to get to start to paint a picture of who it is that we're talking with here and it's nice to know that you have some ongoing professional experience. So you have lived this yourself and with other people as they've known transition. And so before more of ourselves here, Kathy, you've been connected to InterVarsity. You are now you work with InterVarsity. But you've been connected with InterVarsity for a while now you are an alumna. Would you tell us just a little bit about your sort of beginnings with InterVarsity as a student?

Kathy Shiau 3:39
Yeah, totally. So I did not grew up with a faith background. And when I went to college, I did not go to college seeking God but it became abundantly clear that God was seeking me out. And so through the community of believers at the Asian University chapter at the University of Michigan, I came to faith fall of my freshman year. Wow. And then I spent the next four years of college, both really growing as a follower of Christ, but also growing and my leadership as well. Yeah, so that it started pretty early on. I think it was two months into college. And then after that, I actually interned on staff for two years and left and varsity completely. I just thought that was a fun little stint and went off to grad school, but then eventually found my way back on staff and here I am.

Jon Steele 4:36
Yes, wow, that's so fantastic. Going into college, not even looking for God. And then two months later, you've had this serious conversion experience that sets you on a totally different life trajectory than you ever would have expected, which, you know, as we're thinking about the ideas of transition like that gives me a lot of hope for you know, this move into a totally new space and then God just captures your life in that space and, and, and sets you on a path toward and with him and in community. It's helpful to know that they're like, we can look at transition in some really exciting and hopeful ways. Even though it can also be kind of an intimidating thing as well as we as we consider big life changes. Well, okay, so then, you know, Kathy, as we've already said, 100 times we're talking about transition today. It's something that we can all identify with at one time or another in one way or another, our alumni and I would say our newest alumn in particular, those who are about to get about to graduate or those who have just graduated in the last few months or depending on when this airs, maybe even like just right now have graduated. I think that they in particular can really identify with this concept, and we've gotten to hear some bits of your story of moments of transition are ways that we know that you're engaging with transition, but can you can you tell us a story that really paints a picture of like, Oh, here's a quintessential transition experience that I had in my life and some of the things that were happening for you as you as you went through that?

Kathy Shiau 6:04
Yeah. Absolutely. It's funny just sharing my story of going to college and conversion story that didn't stand out to me as a big transition story. And it's like a really positive one. So yeah, totally. We we I do think we tend to think on transition stories as like the negative or hard ones. So that's one of the ones that I will share. The one that I was thinking a lot about was actually it was around my dating relationship with my now husband we not shortly after I graduated from college, and we did not live in the same city and so our relationship had started out long distance. You know, there's kind of things about that, but we definitely both look back and we're like, oh, really grateful for that season. Actually. Eventually, we got to a point in our relationship where we're like, okay, it makes sense to take the next step, which is to figure out do we still like what we have if we live in the same location? Yes. And so that was a, you know, a big decision. My husband was already in the Chicago area at that time, working on a master's degree, and I was wrapping up with my internship with a university, and I was looking to start a master's program. So you know, logistically in so many ways, it just made sense that I would be the one to move to where Dan was located. This was such a hard decision for me. I am like the oldest sibling in my family of origin. I have always made decisions kind of like on my terms quite independently from other people. In many ways. I when I look back on my childhood, I'm like, oh, like I was sort of the first to try something new. So this idea that I might move somewhere for somebody else really bothered me. And then when it actually did happen, so that is how it turned out. I just really struggled with this idea of now being known first as Dan's girlfriend and not Kathy, you know, and this was really compounded by the fact that my husband is very outgoing. He kind of lives his life at a faster pace than I do. I'm definitely more introverted and because he had moved here first, he already had ways of doing things. He had momentum in that. And so that change for me was a very significant transition for our relationship. Also, for me internally to kind of figure out how was I going to figure like, live my life differently and sort through some of the new identity things in that.

Jon Steele 8:52
Yeah. Wow. That's I mean, when you think about compounding transition on top of transition on top of transition in that story, like not only transitioning from like this sort of work and community experience that you've known with this internship, but then moving to a new place and stepping into a new education experience in this in a master's program, being closer together with this person that you're dating a new relationship that way Holy smokes, there's so much so much of its work there. I'm really glad to I'm really glad to hear that this experience in the end has worked out nicely because you know, you two are married at the end of the street. Well, it's not the end of the story, but Kathy, I can I can identify with so much of your so a little bit of my own transition story and people who are listening I've heard different parts of this in one place or another from the from the podcast, but I had the same I had the same thing. I was dating somebody long distance. I was wrapping up my I was wrapping up my undergrad and was like well, I My undergrad was in psychology. So I'm like, Well okay, I'm gonna need something. And so I'm like, alright, well, it makes sense. If I need to go to another program anyways, and we've been dating long distance, I might as well move closer to this, this woman that I've been dating and start a master's program that and I had so many of those same like New place, new program, new relationships and a new spin on this relationship that we have been working on long distance for years. I will say it did not go as well. That person is not the woman that I am now married to.

Kathy Shiau 10:38
It doesn't always work out. Yeah.

Jon Steele 10:41
But you know what I did meet my wife, Kaitlynn, who I'm now married to I'm really grateful that that's the way that that part of the transition worked out. And yeah, it's crazy, like all of the different layers of transit because sometimes it just feels like I'm moving to a new place and you can sort of just like boil it down to just that. And then when you really look at it, you're like, No, you are transitioning relationally professionally communally. Like there are so many different and I think if you if you're not taking the time to kind of counting the cost of that you can be sort of blindsided by all of those different things. So your story sets us up so nicely, I think because so many of our alumni are going to be experiencing at least one i It seems unlikely that it's just one. They can identify with that story as they step into their own transitions here. So in addition to experiencing transition yourself, you've done you've done some amount of studying and teaching around the concept of transition as well and working right in the midst of it as well. But before we jump into anything too formal as far as frameworks and mindset changes, things like that, Could you could you just clarify transition? What is it what is it not just to make sure that we're all speaking the same language moving forward here?

Kathy Shiau 12:03
Yeah, no, that's really helpful. So I think the first thing I would say is that the content that I have studied and have taught on it is based on research that a man named William Bridges has done. He's got several books that he's written. There's one called just transitions and so the definition I this is his definition is all the stuff we're going to talk about is his work. So the thing that actually I when I first read his book that really stood out to me, and it was one of those like aha moments like yes, this describes what we're talking about. So he talks about the difference actually, between when you experience a change versus a transition. And he says that change is situational. You know, it's like you graduate, you move, you start or you under relationship. Those are changes there are events that happen, but the transition that's attached to it is more the process that each of us go through, where we have to internalize and come to terms with all the details about the new situation that the change brings about. So things related to our identity, or why guess that's really the big key thing. It's what's happening inside of us and how we view ourselves now, in light of that.

Jon Steele 13:28
Yeah, man, and this sort of touches on something we've already talked about, but how easy it is to think that the transition is just the situational thing, that it's something that's actually like we will be different as a result of these things. And what does it look like for us to take stock of the ways that this is changing and shaping and molding me? And I'll say right along with that is how is this changing the way that I'm interacting? With Jesus as I'm as I'm messing through the length that needs to be something that's in there in the mix with us as we are, as we're contemplating changes and transition?

Kathy Shiau 14:05
Yeah, and I think to add to that, too, it's just very personal and subjective. You know, we can all find commonality in the types of changes that happen in our lives, like even you and I sharing our stories like, oh, we went through similar changes, but how we experienced how long it took for us to go through the transitions that were attached to that man. That could look totally different between two people how long it took the impact, all of those things.

Jon Steele 14:37
Yeah, yeah, it's not necessarily an A plus B equals C for each. It's not a it's not a one size fits all experience that you can put all of these like, oh yeah, all of these same factors identify with all of those exactly the same. And one person has a completely different experience than the other. And it sort of reminds me so so I'm also a musician. I enjoy watching these different things on YouTube, where you'll have YouTube musicians that sort of like write the beginning piece of a piece of music. Send it off to some of their friends, and they're like, Okay, let's just see what my other musician friends will do with this. And the completely different pieces of music that come out of it, even though they started with the same thing. And it sort of it sort of feels like that of you can have the same input and have a totally different output. Depending on your experience. Yeah, that's great. Kathy, you so you've mentioned William Bridges. Yes. Okay. So you've mentioned William Bridges, and that there's that there's sort of a framework that he's developed around the idea of transition, and that's kind of where we're going to hang the rest of our conversation. is on this framework. Can you can you start to walk us through I know that you know, there are books written on the topic. So this will be this will be we're gonna be doing flybys here, but give us some ideas of the pieces of the framework things like you know, what are some markers of knowing which part of the framework you're in? What are some feelings that you might experience that will help you identify like, okay, yeah, this was further confirming that I'm in this stage of transition. And then I'm sure there are multiple tools that we could apply, but again, for the sake of time, and not overwhelming people and just a you know, 20 or 30 minute conversation, can you give us just like maybe one practical tool for each one of these pieces, and help give us a leg up on what it looks like to be prepared for transition.

Kathy Shiau 16:28
So the framework that Bridges has developed, he talks about there being three phases to transition. And they are the letting go phase, the neutral stone phase, and then the new beginning phase. You do move through these phases in that order. And there are specific things that you need to attend to and each one bridges isn't necessarily saying that you completely finished one and then you're done with so they you can kind of experience things and all the phases at one time sort of thing, but there might be some overlap. So that's the first thing I'll just say. So yeah, we'll talk a little bit about each one. So the letting go. So it's helpful to understand is that with any transition, it starts with something ended every change that happens in our lives. There was always something we are saying goodbye to. Sometimes, many times. The goodbye may often be welcomed you know, like, I'm done. Being a student I never have to go to class again. is awesome, right? But there are always things related to what we're saying goodbye to that sometimes maybe we didn't realize was important to us. I can remember life as a student and you know, we had class schedules and times and places we had to be at certain things, you know, tests and all that but there was so much freedom to and yeah, like you could explore so many things with activities and all those kinds of things and sometimes we don't even know what we're saying goodbye to. And so it might not even hit us until we realize, Oh, we don't have that anymore. So I would say the feeling that is attached to this phase is definitely the feeling of grief and that might be hard for some of us even to recognize, I think in our western cultural values. We don't necessarily hold that emotion with respect necessarily we kind of avoided or looked down upon people who are in that emotional state. And so it's probably easy for us to feel unsettled and sad, angry, anxious, you know all those things and not even know that what is really happening is that there's something that we are grieving I think a very practical tool ban is actually just to take stock of your emotions. And so, you know, make it a point to journal and observe like what is different about my life? What are my feelings that are attached to it? I think the tool definitely is being very committed to paying attention to your emotions, especially if you're somebody who hasn't experienced grief or maybe you did but didn't even know that that's what you were going through.

Jon Steele 19:34
Yeah, it feels like a place where you know, as we think about transitioning from being a part of this faith community on campus into this next phase, where we're not sure about our where our faith community is going to be and like even some of the sort of the handholds that help us continue down the road of developing as a disciple of Jesus. And it's think about are there are there useful spiritual practices that I should really be leaning into as I go through this and so it feels like some of what you're talking about feels like, yes, like mindfulness and sort of stealing away for those quiet times. So just thoughtfully like opening yourself up to the Lord and saying, like, what's happening inside of me right now? Can you help me take stock of this? And that that's something you could partner you could partner with God really closely with in identifying like, what are these things that I'm feeling and is it okay, like the answer is yes, it's okay that you're feeling them. But like actually giving yourself space to process through that with with the Holy Spirit.

Kathy Shiau 20:33
Yeah, totally. So that is the first phase. The second phase is what Brad just calls the neutral zone. And this is what he describes as an emotional wilderness. He has this great analogy Well there's two analogies that actually really stand out. The first one is one of a trapeze artist and you know, when they are swinging from one bar to another, the letting go is when you're like literally letting go of that first bar and you are trusting that you know, on the other hand, somebody has one that other party for you to like catch up just the right time. And that neutral zone is that in between time where you're holding on to nothing. You're trusting that what is on the other end will come at the right time. So that's one analogy. He also throughout his book talks about just an overall analogy of the Israelites and their journey through transition, and in particular, the literal 40 years of wandering in the wilderness and how that was necessary to be able to shed their old identity as slaves in Egypt in order to prepare them to enter into the promised land. And so this face feels will probably feel like there's a lot of anxiety because you're like, I don't know what's next. I don't even maybe know how to get there. And you might feel frustrated if you're a type of person who you know is used to just checking off the boxes and you do all the right thing. And you know, so much. Yeah, and so much of our student lives are scripted that way, right? We we've been told most of our lives like you do this this year. You do this this year, and if you do all these things, here are the results that you can expect.

Jon Steele 22:32
Yeah, where's my advisor to sit down with my student advisor and they would help me put my class schedule together every semester and now who's that person for me?

Kathy Shiau 22:44
Yeah, exactly. So it will feel for many of us just filled with anxiety. And what is really hard about this place, and this will kind of lend itself but the tip that I suggest is that it's a necessary phase for us to go through. Because if we don't stay in this phase, and if we don't stay in it long enough, not only do we just like compromise the whole process of transition for ourselves, but we actually also just miss out on creative ways forward. And so bridges talks about how this is the phase where a lot of creativity can start to emerge. Interesting and this can come in in a number of ways. It might be like a new way of viewing ourselves, but it might even be something very tangible like we discover new activities or hobbies or skills that in our previously very well scripted lives throughout college we just didn't pay attention to or we didn't have time to whatever the reason might be. And it's usually not until we're in this state of disequilibrium that we maybe have the push to try some new things. So my tip would be in this phase, I guess the word of advice first would just be Don't try to escape that feeling of uncomfortableness like it. It should feel uncomfortable, but it's part of the process. So know that. And then I think my tip would be is really to make sure you are processing what you're going through. with others and to give feedback in community from people who know you, you know, should share what's hard, tell them the things that you're thinking about exploring and really get their feedback. And yeah, seek out that community so that when you are starting to feel anxious and you kind of just want to give up and will your way to the next thing that you've got other people kind of cheering you on and helping to reflect back to you what they see.

Musical Interlude

Wrap up

Jon Steele 24:59
Okay, so many things to walk away with already, but I want to zoom in on one thread that I see so far. First of all, Kathy mentioned paying attention to emotions as a part of ending Well, acknowledging and allowing yourself to feel what you feel including uncomfortable things like mourning and grief. An important part of that process is being present and aware. Now we haven't finished talking about the neutral zone. So there's more to learn here. But the second thing that standing out to me is the importance of allowing ourselves the time and space to just live in the neutral zone. There's anxiety and uncertainty that comes with it, but it's also a place where given the time we start to come up with creative ways forward. As Kathy said, the thread that I'm seeing here so far is that in these first two stages of transition, there's a need to do the work of acknowledging we are where we are and we recognize and allow the emotional realities of those experiences. Kathy and I talked about this but I'm wondering if we would do well to practice the discipline of mindfulness as we go through transition. It's a practice that I remember learning about in my psychology studies, and it's something we hear about as a spiritual discipline as well, especially when it comes to prayer rhythms. When we practice mindfulness, we slow down and give ourselves space to become aware of what's happening inside of us and around us. No judgment, no problem solving, just awareness. If it was a manuscript study, we'd be marking up the text with all the things that we're observing no interpretation yet, just observation. And just like with any good manuscript study, doing the work and practicing the discipline of making thoughtful observations, first of being mindful of our emotions and our present realities, we better prepare ourselves for understanding context, drawing accurate conclusions and taking strategic next steps of application. Alumni as you begin this new phase as you do the work. of ending well, and as you start to experience that neutral zone of life after graduation, I hope you will give yourself the space to practice mindfulness with the Holy Spirit. Take stock, observe and make room for understanding what's happening inside of you and around you. Even when it's a slow process to resources to help you with this one. If you haven't read after college by Erica young writes, hop on the IBPS website and grab a copy. That whole book is fantastic. But Chapter Two speaks about this exact framework that Cathy's leading us through, get your copy, give it a read, and if you've already read it as a part of your senior programming, go back and read it again. You'll be so glad that you did actually have that section dog eared in my copy. Second resource if you'd like something to help you practice some mindfulness, check out our episode about the daily examine. It'll lead you through a five to 10 minute exercise that you can use every day to consider your surroundings and the ways that you're encountering God. And we develop that during the season of lens but we created it generally enough that it can be applied at any point. You can find a link to both of those resources in the show notes. Then come on back next time as we continue our conversation with Kathy she's going to lead us through the final part of breaches framework, new beginnings, you're definitely going to feel some encouragement as we talk about what it looks like to finally start feeling some confidence in our new surroundings.

Podcast Outro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Jon Steele
Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. Alumni if there was anything that you learned really enjoyed or they encouraged you from today's episode, when you send us a DM or tag us in a story, we'd love to hear about it. You can find us at after for pod on Instagram and Facebook. And if you haven't already, take just a second to unlock your phone and subscribe to the podcast. If your platform lets you leave us a rating and a review. And if you like what we're doing here, share us with your InterVarsity or other post-graduation friends. Thanks again for listening and I will see you in the after, Alumni.

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