Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Each week, Amanda Campbell interviews amazing people, who will share their inspiring stories of resilience. Amanda dives deep into 40-minute DNM’s with guests, exploring their stories of how they have overcome adversity in their lives professionally and personally.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:32:23
Unknown
Welcome to the Bend Like Bamboo Podcast. I'm your host, Amanda Campbell, kinesiology resilience coach and author who knows what it feels like when your body betrays you or burn out nearly breaks you. This podcast is for those healing from chronic conditions and autoimmune disease and also for leaders navigating burnout and overwhelm. You're about to hear real stories of transformation, the messy middle, the breakthrough moments, the science and practical tools that actually work.
00:00:33:00 - 00:00:40:10
Unknown
Because resilience isn't about being unbreakable. It's about learning to bend without breaking. Let's dive in.
00:00:40:10 - 00:01:24:10
Unknown
I am so excited to introduce today's guest, Darren Gorski. Darren is a physiotherapist with more than 27 years of experience treating jaw, face and neck conditions. And what I love about his story is that early in his career he recognized something that other musculoskeletal conditions clinicians were missing, that TMJ disorders were being under managed. That recognition led him to develop the grass ski cranio mandibular method and intuitive approach that is now used across his entire clinical team at Melbourne, TMJ and Facial Facial Pain Center Center.
00:01:24:11 - 00:01:56:02
Unknown
Did I say that by facial pain center? Got it. But here's what makes Darren truly unique. He's become this bridge between professions he has taught at Melbourne Dental School for three years as part of a multi-disciplinary TMD program for qualified dentists. He presents annually at multiple national and international events. In 2025, Darren launched his own two day intensive course.
00:01:56:04 - 00:02:22:05
Unknown
The five step TMD protocol for dental professionals and is now focused exclusively on mentoring and training clinicians, shaping the landscape of TMJ and cranial facial pain care in Australia and beyond. Darren, welcome to the Ben Like Bambi podcast. I am so glad that you're here. Thank you so much and thank you for that introduction. it's my pleasure.
00:02:22:05 - 00:02:47:20
Unknown
It's my pleasure. I'm really thrilled to have this conversation with you today. As a physiologist specializing in muscles and nervous system. And I have many clients who come to me with pain and TMJ issues. You know, I'm really excited for you to share your story, your amazing business journey and your expertise in this area. Thank you for inviting me.
00:02:47:22 - 00:03:13:13
Unknown
That's all right. So you live in Melbourne, don't you? I do, yes. Originally from South Africa. Yes. And actually on the 26th. So on Australia Day, as it would, and as you know, the universe would craft it, it was actually the day that I left South Africa 29 years ago on the 26th of January, arriving in Australia on the 27th of January.
00:03:13:13 - 00:03:21:22
Unknown
But I left South Africa on Australia Day. wow. Well, that's that's amazing. Do you love it here?
00:03:21:24 - 00:03:49:14
Unknown
I do. I have had periods where I've fallen in and out of love with Melbourne, depending on what's kind of going on societally. But I do. I do love it. that's good. What do you miss the most about South Africa? I have family there still, so my parents and my youngest sibling are still there, as well as some very close first cousins and extended family.
00:03:49:14 - 00:04:14:20
Unknown
And we're very close family. So I guess I miss that. And then also, I never really realized how much Africa ran through my my veins until I left there. And I miss I miss Africa. I miss the people. I miss the wildlife. Yeah. And that's the smell of the air, which is curiously a little bit different as far as the different plants and trees.
00:04:14:22 - 00:04:36:04
Unknown
But yeah, Africa is a very special continent. It's very raw, so I do miss that, but I've never really contemplated returning there on anything more than just a holiday to visit. How often do you holiday there? It's landed up being about every two and a half years that I've made a trip back. It was a big a pause over COVID.
00:04:36:04 - 00:05:08:22
Unknown
Of course, I'm very fortunate that my parents are still able to travel and they come out annually. So if it weren't for that, I probably would be going back more frequently. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm thrilled that you're here and I Let's dive in. I want to learn so much about you and this amazing technique that you've developed. So you've developed the Gorski Cranio mandibular method, which is now used across your clinical team.
00:05:08:24 - 00:05:37:23
Unknown
Can you take us back to those earlier days, and what was the moment when you realized that this gap existed? So we have to probably backpedal a little bit before that to my very first role in South Africa as a qualified physiotherapist, and I was extremely fortunate to work for a lady who at that stage was considered one of the preeminent mental therapists in South Africa physiotherapist.
00:05:38:00 - 00:06:04:22
Unknown
And I remember being in her practice and patients would come in and, you know, she would she taught us how to do some intraoral work. A TMD temperamental blood disorder for your listeners. And so when I arrived in Australia three years later, I was after three years of qualified practice, I just assumed that physios in Australia would be doing the same.
00:06:04:24 - 00:06:36:07
Unknown
And it became apparent to me that there were very few people here in Melbourne who were actually advertising, that they were treating TMJ related issues. And to me it was just the obvious part of physiotherapy, because Fran, the lady that I used to work for, she said, If it's got muscles, it's got ligaments, it's got bones, it's it's within, within scope of the physiotherapist to treat because that's what we do.
00:06:36:09 - 00:07:10:07
Unknown
So I was quite surprised by the fact that this particular joint was almost excluded from that. And when I started to kind of investigate who were the people treating these conditions, it became obvious that that responsibility almost fell squarely on the shoulders of the dental profession and I have subsequently, over the years, learned more and more about the dental approach and the value that it brings to the management of these conditions.
00:07:10:07 - 00:07:35:05
Unknown
But it doesn't in any way, shape or form replace the work of the manual therapists. It's still, at the end of the day, a joint that is overloaded. The muscles are overloaded through a variety of reasons, of course, but at the end of the day, it still has to be treated according to the same musculoskeletal principles, albeit on a much more complex framework.
00:07:35:07 - 00:08:25:18
Unknown
So when I when I realized that it was the dentists that were responsible for treating us and then try to understand the lens through which they were looking at these conditions, it was very, very different from that of a of a muscular skeletal professional. And so I began to understood that it was about whose responsibility it was assumed to be and because because of where it's located in front of the is essentially, I think that the physio and maybe to a lesser extent osteo professions just considered it not their scope of practice because it was in here and there was a mouth and teeth and, and all these other structures that they weren't really comfortable
00:08:25:20 - 00:09:04:09
Unknown
treating. So I had to go on a real journey of discovery to try and firstly inform myself better about the way that the dental, professional and and professions understood these conditions and therefore how they proposed managing it. Yes, Well, how does a dentist manage TMJ? So essentially the way that it presents to a dentist is usually that people look are complaining of jaw pain or maybe other pain.
00:09:04:11 - 00:09:32:20
Unknown
And when the dentist investigates a little bit further, they should usually identify the fact that this person is clenching or grinding their teeth. There may be evidence of that on examination of the teeth or inside the mouth if they know what they're looking for. And the first responsibility being the people who have basically got the mandate for looking after the dental health is to protect the teeth from the effects of clenching and grinding.
00:09:32:20 - 00:09:59:04
Unknown
So it's very typical for a dentist to ask to prescribe an occlusal splint also about plates, mouthguard, various names for the same thing, and in many cases, obviously, you know, identifying this for the patient and maybe asking some questions and saying, you know, looks like you're clenching, grinding of teeth. Are you stressed? Maybe you need to be doing something to address your stress.
00:09:59:06 - 00:10:26:17
Unknown
They often don't do much more than a splint. And maybe some advice regarding, you know, a softer diet, things that de-stress those fractures. Yeah, but it really would be akin to somebody going to a physiotherapist. The physiotherapist says, Yeah, you've definitely overdone it with your running, you've hurt your knee and I'm going to just give you a knee brace and you know, don't run for a while.
00:10:26:19 - 00:10:57:10
Unknown
And we know that that wouldn't be acceptable management. We know that if you were to seek guidance from a physiotherapist for a knee that would be doing more than just advice and a brace. But but that is essentially what a splint is being used for. And many dentists in their base. Well, in their base training that don't actually learn much about the musculoskeletal principles of treating joints and muscles because it's not their mandate.
00:10:57:10 - 00:11:26:04
Unknown
The mandate is oral health and teeth and gums. And so it's only those that might have an interest in treating the pain side of temperamental blood disorders that may go and do additional study and might learn about different types of splinting options that they can prescribe, which are more specifically addressing the clinical presentation. Because as I say in my lectures, not all splints are born equal, right?
00:11:26:06 - 00:12:07:08
Unknown
So some some can if they're if they are prescribed by somebody who knows what they're doing, they will be designed to do more than just protect the teeth. Yeah. And so it became obvious to me that there was this huge gap between the whole world view of the dentist around these conditions and the world view of somebody like myself and I made it kind of my mission initially to understand their world view and then to try and make my approach collaborative with with them so that we could actually start to provide more holistic care for patients.
00:12:07:08 - 00:12:40:15
Unknown
And over the time and my understanding and my and my clinical offering, whether that would be internally with my team or with people we collaborate with externally, you know, has broadened as we've realized the complexity and the many moving parts of these conditions. Yeah, so I totally resonate with that, especially as a kinesiology, just with thankfully trained to assess the body structurally, biochemically, emotionally and energetically.
00:12:40:20 - 00:13:24:00
Unknown
And there are meridians that run through this area, particularly the spheroid bone and the oxer foot bone. You know, there's a spin on an oxygen release that we can do as kinesiology this, that can, you know, really address the cranial nerves as well as the TMJ. And in a session, you know, you'll be addressing stress, any, you know, emotions that the client might be holding on to that you can release using acupressure and then looking at nutrition that that might need to support the adrenal glands as they're going through period of stress and structurally just any changes in the hips and the knees and the ankles that's all connected to the jaw is so wonderful
00:13:24:00 - 00:13:55:23
Unknown
that you have developed this program because it's going to help so many people to to in in their therapy when they when they when they receive it. And you're not only helping dentists, but also physiotherapists. So my my journey regarding education started internally with my own team. Yes. Because and we'll talk about this a little bit later. But, you know, at one point I was doing all the work pretty much on my own.
00:13:56:04 - 00:14:30:03
Unknown
Yes. And recognized the need to really replace myself with others that I had taught and mentored. And I guess that is when I formalized the Gorecki cranium. And to build a method to be what it is so my training of physiotherapists has been mainly limited to my own team. Yeah, I have of course delivered many, you know, black in service training, professional development sessions to other physio teams.
00:14:30:05 - 00:14:51:24
Unknown
But the ability in a limited capacity, not not in a not in a training capacity, more from a sort of the scope and understanding of, of this condition so that I can better recognize them. In fact, most recently I did that for the keys of physiotherapists, which are just up the road from my practice and Corfield So they're everywhere.
00:14:51:24 - 00:15:20:02
Unknown
They've got so many places. Yeah, they're, they're, they're, they're a big operation. And I've also done the same for Osteopathic Clinics. I let the majority of my education has focused on the dental world, and the reason for that is because they are usually the gatekeepers of these conditions, because they're usually the people that the patient is going to complain to first or the dentist is in a perfect position.
00:15:20:02 - 00:15:53:07
Unknown
Seeing that patient every six months for a checkup, hopefully to identify signs of these things before they actually become fully blown conditions. So I have I've really developed a passion for wanting to narrow that bridge, that gap between to bridge that gap, should I say, between the way that dentists view things and the way that musculoskeletal professionals view things, because we really need everybody to be on the same page.
00:15:53:07 - 00:16:32:11
Unknown
And I've I've affectionately referred to temporomandibular disorders in my lectures for a long time now as the Bermuda Triangle of medical conditions, because because these patients get lost in the void. Yeah. And the direction in which they will get lost will be determined largely by what their most prevalent symptom is. And if they if their most prevalent symptom is headaches, they might end up doing they may go to their GP, they may have some, you know, manual therapy type work to their neck, their muscles end up going to see a neurologist.
00:16:32:13 - 00:17:00:02
Unknown
But if they can't prevent, the structures are part of that headache and it's not being addressed, they're not going to get resolution. Yeah, likewise, the most prevalent symptom might be that yeah, they might end up with either blocking or aching or tinnitus and end up going down a hole. GP, EMT, audiology investigation, pathway to find that there's nothing wrong.
00:17:00:04 - 00:17:21:14
Unknown
Now some EMT is will be a little bit broader in their thinking and examine the TMJ because it's literally just behind the ear and may say I think this could be a TMJ problem. You're probably clenching from stress and then they might send them to their dentist who may not do any more than just give them a splint.
00:17:21:16 - 00:18:07:17
Unknown
Yeah. Which doesn't resolve the problem. Yes. So that's where this disconnect is occurring. And that's been my mission to try and close that gap with the education that I that I've been providing. And it's evolved, as you as you mentioned earlier. So initially it was just by way of me giving lectures to dental surgeries and then five years ago, the dentist who heads up our team, our dental team, in my practice, a brilliant dentist called Dr. Damien Tio, who studied further, he studied further beyond his his general dentistry and learned about temporomandibular conditions.
00:18:07:19 - 00:18:35:02
Unknown
And then he went to go and work up in, in Darwin at the TMJ Sleep Center. And while he was there he was collaborating with body workers and he saw the value of collaborative care for these patients. At the same time, he was studying dental sleep medicine because there's a really big overlap between our airway and sleep apnea and TMJ related issues.
00:18:35:04 - 00:19:02:24
Unknown
And when he came back to Melbourne, he he approached me and he said, Darren, we we have to work together. And I said, Yeah, you're risky. We used to refer patients to me before you left. We can absolutely go back to that. And he said, No, I have to be together with you in your clinic, on your team, and so it was actually quite a big step for me to take because I needed to do that in a way that didn't upset my existing referral by dentists.
00:19:02:24 - 00:19:29:06
Unknown
And we're very careful to respect those relationships. Yes, but it's been absolutely transformative for my practice because I've really been able to learn so much more than I would have had not had that collaboration, you know, on a daily basis. And, you know, we have case studies every second week for an hour on a monday, and he's he participates in that.
00:19:29:06 - 00:20:04:21
Unknown
So we're getting more than just each other's views on tricky patients. We also are getting his perspective, which is amazing one. So he started running a program, a six day many residency he calls it, which is two, three day weekends and over a six month period. And he invites people of all medical and dental disciplines to deliver lectures on their area of specialization or interest on his many residencies.
00:20:04:21 - 00:20:42:02
Unknown
So his attendees get a really broad understanding of things, which is amazing. And I've been running the physiotherapy and masterclass, so to speak, about a five hour session each each year for five years. So we start off with a lecture, try and give them perspective, try and get them to understand principles, musculoskeletal principles, and then we do an assessment and a demo treatment, and then we do a practical session where my team come down as well, and we then teach these dentists some techniques that they can start to use in their own patients.
00:20:42:02 - 00:21:10:14
Unknown
And that really was the springboard to me expanding that into a full blown two day course, which he's been encouraging me to do for a while. So it was a big bucket list item for me to be able to take off in 2025. Yeah. So that's yeah, that's really, I guess, my journey as an educator. And just to clarify, you mentioned before my involvement at Melbourne Dental School, that was pre-COVID.
00:21:10:16 - 00:21:36:20
Unknown
We ran a one day course. There was myself across the dentist, I oral medicine specialist and a maxillofacial surgeon, and we ran this course three years in a row. And then with COVID, it stopped and I'm no longer involved in that with Melbourne Uni. Okay, okay. Well, I'd love to now talk about how you went from 60 hour work weeks to mentoring others.
00:21:36:22 - 00:22:03:12
Unknown
And you know, you've built an incredible practice, the Melbourne, TMJ and Facial, you know, facial pain center. You know, you've trained an entire clinical team in your method, but I do understand there was a period where you were working 60 hours a week and the business was booming, but you were burning out. You made a pivotal shift, not just scaling back, but ultimately transitioning to focus exclusively on mentoring and training clinicians.
00:22:03:14 - 00:22:37:20
Unknown
And for so many of my listeners, whether they're managing chronic conditions or leading businesses and teams, burnout is this breaking point where you either snap or binge. So can you take us back to that moment and what resilience meant to you in that period? So yes, you're absolutely correct. As my practice success grew, so my caseload expanded and of course, when you're trying to grow a practice, you then need to be available to see those patients.
00:22:37:20 - 00:23:05:13
Unknown
And while I had a practice around me with people that I employed, they weren't brought on specifically to take on these conditions. And so it was only if somebody showed interest that I would train them to assist me. And in both cases, the person that I had trained who was working alongside me actually emigrated. So they left the country, leaving me to have to replace them with one other person.
00:23:05:15 - 00:23:34:04
Unknown
Eventually, when I was 18 months out from my 50th birthday, I remember coming back from our annual two week holiday. That's all that I talk about. I used to work every public holiday and, you know, with the exception of Christmas Day and New Year's Day. Yeah. And I would you know, I knew that if I was in the diary, I could be fully booked with patients.
00:23:34:04 - 00:24:05:07
Unknown
And we just needed it financially because we were one income family. My wife is involved in our practice on the admin side, and so my hours were just ridiculous and I know that I missed that so much on my my kids growing up. Yeah. So we arrived back from our annual two week holiday in January and I said to my wife, I don't know if I can do this for 50 weeks before the next two week break.
00:24:05:09 - 00:24:34:17
Unknown
I honestly felt quite, quite trapped and I said that if I, if I haven't done something to change the course of this by June next year, which was going to be when I turned 50, you know, I don't know. I honestly don't know what I'm going to do. This was in January 2018 and I decided to, you know, make some radical changes.
00:24:34:17 - 00:25:14:05
Unknown
And I understood that that was going to require a mindset shift and lots of hard work. And I was very fortunate to through a sequence of fortuitous events because I don't believe in luck or chance. And I joined an amazing organization that really helped me completely read design and reconfigure my professional life and my approach to the practice and my ultimate goal when I started the process was to have 30 hours of consulting only.
00:25:14:07 - 00:25:32:20
Unknown
Yeah, this is my naivete and 30 hours of practice management. And I thought, well, you know, that would be sweet, because then I can do all the things that I've been neglecting and I can still be the physio that I want to be. Yeah, but it soon became apparent that the 60 Hours in and of itself was just ridiculous.
00:25:32:22 - 00:26:03:23
Unknown
And once I started to discover that there was life outside of the consulting room and that I could do so much more for my practice and therefore for my patients, ultimately I, I, I kind of was on the journey of, to use the term coming off the tools. So that became my ultimate goal. And it took me 20 months to go from 60 hours a week of consulting down to zero.
00:26:04:00 - 00:26:43:00
Unknown
Wow. And ironically, that was at the end of December 2019. So off we went on our first three week family holiday ever and we came back to COVID overheats. In fact, I'll tell you a funny story. Yes, certainly at the time. But we flew home from Rome to Melbourne via Shanghai. Now, I've never been to China before, but I've been to busy airports, I've been to Singapore Airport and I've been to Kuala Lumpur Airport.
00:26:43:02 - 00:27:14:05
Unknown
And so being in a big busy Asian city airport wasn't something I'd never done before. But I thought I thought Shanghai is going to be like next level, right? We arrived at 9:00 on Tuesday morning and we came through security and the airport was when I sat empty, I mean, literally empty. There were no people there were a few people in the shops manning the shops.
00:27:14:07 - 00:27:39:19
Unknown
Wow. But it was the weirdest and the most disconcerting feeling I ever had traveling. Yeah, because it was like you're in a dream or something. Yeah. And I went up to the information desk and said, Wait, where are the people? What's going on? And the woman said, Ah, this is a new terminal that's only been open for six or seven months now.
00:27:39:24 - 00:28:04:22
Unknown
I wouldn't expect that it would take very long to fill the new terminal with international flights in such a busy, you know, hub. So anyway, we accepted it for what it was and it was only later when we got back to Melbourne and COVID started to happen that I started to think back thinking, I wonder if this airport knew stuff ahead of time and they just shut flights down.
00:28:04:24 - 00:28:31:11
Unknown
Yeah, I'm making assumptions. Yeah, but it certainly would explain to me that that very, very weird encounter when I saw people, the pictures of the airport terminal just completely empty. It's it's just goodness. Yeah, that would be frightening and just bizarre. And with everything that we know now of, you know, or the conversation, you know, in, in the country.
00:28:31:11 - 00:29:09:13
Unknown
Yeah. Who knows like, yeah, maybe they didn't know it all started there. Some people hypothesize and so they probably did know a lot more before it hit Australia and other countries. They might must have been informed of talk about childhood trauma and the impact of memory. B on how we feel viscerally. What I felt at that stage was it took me back to a memory of being taken to the cinema by my grandmother and I was a little boy.
00:29:09:15 - 00:29:30:01
Unknown
I even remember the movie we went to see, but it was a South African really. So we're mean anything to your listeners? But I asked to go to the bathroom and it was, you know, it was a daytime movie. So she took me to the bathroom and then she took me back. And then I said to her, I used to call in and I said, Then I need to go to the toilet again.
00:29:30:01 - 00:29:50:20
Unknown
Then she said, You know where it is. You can go, You're a big boy. So I said, Yeah, that's fine. Well, if I went to the bathroom and when I came out of the bathroom and entered the cinema again, instead of going into college cinema for I went into cinema three. Right. It was, and it was empty.
00:29:50:22 - 00:30:19:11
Unknown
And I started to cry because I couldn't understand where all the people had gone and how I had been abandoned there. Yes. And somebody was cleaning, came and saw me. And then she realized what had happened, took me to my grandmother. But that is the memory that came back into my head when I went out, when we came through security and there was nothing in this massive airport terminal anyway.
00:30:19:13 - 00:30:42:21
Unknown
And did that affect like overheating? Did that affect your plan? Because let's talk about this company that you you know, you did some work with that obviously convinced you of a different model and that led to that shift of you becoming more of a teacher and mentor rather than a practitioner. How were you convinced of that transition? And like, what did you learn?
00:30:42:21 - 00:31:06:15
Unknown
And then then you went on to the 20 months of executing it, like what was the shift there? So I mean, I knew I knew that I needed to make the changes. So that wasn't something that I needed to be convinced of. I guess where that convincing came was not that anyone trusted my on board, but far, far be it is.
00:31:06:15 - 00:31:28:18
Unknown
I saw other practitioners in there running their clinics where they had gone through this journey, albeit that I've been told by my colleagues at this at the Academy that they've never had anybody to scale back from 60 hours a week. People usually wake up about the need to do this when they're at a 35 or 40 hour week, not 60.
00:31:28:20 - 00:31:53:14
Unknown
So it was a massive, massive undertaking. But knowing that other people had gone through this journey, understood where I was at and what I was feeling. I guess the social proof of that, that it was possible and that these people felt that it had been a very wise decision because I felt that it was almost financially irresponsible to not consult, knowing that it was in the diary.
00:31:53:14 - 00:32:33:19
Unknown
I could earn money, but the family were paying off private school fees and a mortgage. Yes. And so it was it was it was a difficult decision to make. I mean, fortunately, it was done in a very staged way because I couldn't go from 60 hours of consulting down to zero in one fell swoop. We literally worked out that for me to pull out 15 hours of the 60, I needed to hire, train, mentor one physio and get them up to 80% capacity before it allowed me to trigger the next hire and then I could pull out another 15 hours.
00:32:33:19 - 00:33:11:08
Unknown
And so that became the formula. It was really just a numbers calculation. And before even starting that process, my coach said to me, You're just not ready. You don't have the foundational blocks in your business ready, even though it was a very mature business. But there were so many things that we just didn't have in place in order to make the experience of that first person who we hired a really positive experience because we wanted it to be so positive that it would be a workplace that they wanted to stay at.
00:33:11:08 - 00:33:44:20
Unknown
And in actual fact, that very first person who I hired back in the day is now in the most senior position in the clinic outside of me. He's our clinical lead and he's gone on to study a master's in Orofacial pain. So I'm so grateful that my coach really didn't allow me to do things before we were ready and and as we progressed through those 20 months and I saw the value that I was bringing in that time and I made myself really accountable.
00:33:44:20 - 00:34:12:07
Unknown
It wasn't about kicking back and having coffee just because I wasn't seeing patients. What are you doing? I was trying to so that we started to put mentoring in the diary, which we'd never, ever had for our team members before, You know, before that we're just all contractors on a percentage. And if they weren't busy, then there was nothing holding them to being around that could disappear, come back when their patients were back in the diary.
00:34:12:09 - 00:34:41:12
Unknown
You have to create that mentoring program from scratch or it all was already part made from what you were teaching your name anyway. The content, the training was always there because it had to train people internally anyway. Yeah, what I hadn't done was form an asset and and turn it into a proper kind of curriculum, you know, where we know that if a new team member comes on, we've got to take them from A to Z before they see their very first patient.
00:34:41:14 - 00:35:17:16
Unknown
And I'm literally got a new therapist starting next week who's now at the end of his his, his training period. So from a mentoring perspective, that became more about making sure that they were coping with their clients now that they were seeing clients. And, you know, back in the day when we when we took that first employee on, we only had about a 5050 split between general musculoskeletal cases and TMJ or facial pain conditions.
00:35:17:18 - 00:35:44:17
Unknown
And now that's probably closer to a 9010 or 8515 kind of split in terms of what we do at the practice, because there's two identities to the practice, the original practice and sort of the legal company's name is more than physio, which which already speaks to the fact that I never just wanted to offer physiotherapy. I went and studied other things, which was another reason that I became so interested in this work.
00:35:44:19 - 00:36:15:02
Unknown
I studied cranial psychotherapy, which comes out of the osteopathic profession, and it was at that point that I basically took one of my feet out of the physiotherapy line and stuck it outside and and then started to appreciate how other body work or other clinical approaches, you know, had their own value. And that value was collaborative with, you know, the things that I was doing.
00:36:15:02 - 00:36:47:18
Unknown
And so I really was looking to have in my practice even those early days, practitioners that weren't physios bringing their skills. And we've had a range of people over the years homeopaths, acupuncturists, lecture, pats, cranial psychotherapy. So that's where, that's where that I more than physio came from. But, but in terms of where we're at now, you know, as I said, Melbourne team has really where we are almost exclusive focus is yes.
00:36:47:18 - 00:37:25:24
Unknown
Your niche is your niche. Yeah. Gain Center. Well I also find it so compelling that your work is all about bridging the professions. And for my listeners, dealing with chronic pain or TMJ issues or stress related. Joel Clenching Can we talk about why TMJ problems often require this multi-disciplinary approach? Why can't one profession solve it alone? And how does the jaw become this gateway to understanding what's happening in the whole body in the system?
00:37:26:01 - 00:37:53:15
Unknown
That's a big question. Yeah. And I think that a lot of our emotions are expressed from this area. I know that when we studied cranial psychotherapy, they used to talk about the avenue of expression being the mouth, which, which seems obvious because that's how you talk and express your feelings. But when things are not going well, we also clamp down.
00:37:53:17 - 00:38:19:02
Unknown
And so it's very common and people will be able to identify with the fact that when we feel stressed about things, we usually are going to manifest it up here somewhere. We're either going to tighten up and get headaches or we might clench our teeth and develop these other symptoms. One of which may be headaches, but it could be facial pressure or pain that mimics itself as a sort of sinus infection.
00:38:19:02 - 00:38:43:14
Unknown
Or it might be headaches or it might be your pain. So I think I think it's just such a pivotal area that becomes affected and it's so close to the brain and the trigeminal nerve. One of our cranial nerves is the nerve that supplies the temperamental ability to sort of the temperament to build structures and other aspects of the face.
00:38:43:16 - 00:39:07:23
Unknown
Yeah. So I think for all of those reasons, it's it's it's a complex area. It is well, there's the amygdala, there's the hypothalamus, which is in charge of our memories and of stress and trauma. And so the hippocampus, I should say hypothalamus is the gland that's in charge. You know, our adrenal glands, our, you know, reproductive system, immune system.
00:39:07:23 - 00:39:29:01
Unknown
It's like the boss, isn't it. Well, they call it the well, their pituitary is the master gland, but one of the hypothalamus. This is a very important. Yeah. It's been very important as well. And, and you actually alluded to this earlier but you talked about the speech noid as a power in that you you you work on releasing.
00:39:29:01 - 00:39:54:12
Unknown
So the the the pituitary and please if if there are any anatomists there please don't take aim at me if I'm getting my anatomy facts wrong. It's been a long time but but essentially the pituitary gland that's in the cell it hurts the little Turkish settle in in which is which is very close to and associated with the with the spheroid bone.
00:39:54:14 - 00:40:43:23
Unknown
And if this and the spheroid bone attaches to the occipital bone and they're meant to actually move. And if those bones are not moving and they jammed, then the bulking effect, the mechanical milking on this gland is affected and then it actually has an induction or a hormonal effect on the body. So you can land up with with as much as your emotions affect your physical, you can actually have the physical produce a negative effect on your emotions through a change in your hormone balance because of this connection and our our our two very important your muscles, our medial and lateral tearing wide muscles attached to the speaker Noid Yeah.
00:40:44:00 - 00:41:20:12
Unknown
So there's so much connectivity between these areas. Yeah. And also it can help to release the sacroiliac joint any you know hip pain there in my protocols that I was taught when I'm releasing the sphere Noid it can also be linked like the hormonal balancing that you've just discussed emotional balancing, bedwetting as well urinary function. There are so many symptoms that we can treat simply by releasing this joint bone structurally by chemically, emotionally, it's quite phenomenal.
00:41:20:14 - 00:41:41:17
Unknown
Also mainly worry and pensive ness, which is obsessive thinking. You know, when we get stressed and we enumerate and we get stuck in our heads, typically overthinking the past or over analyzing the future and energy gets stuck here and it compresses into the jaw and and the spheroid bone and the occipital. So that's why we release it as can physiologists.
00:41:41:17 - 00:42:15:07
Unknown
And I guess that explains why. Yeah, just taking that one approach sometimes isn't what that client needs. There's also other shifts and other things to integrate into the session. Yeah, there's a few things on that point that I that want to mention because I think once we have in this conversation, it'll help add meat to the bones. So the when I studied cranial in the more advanced levels, we learned a technique called somatic emotional release.
00:42:15:09 - 00:42:49:23
Unknown
And we believe that when people have a traumatic emotional experience, sometimes that memory of that trauma stays imprinted in the tissues. Yeah. And so when you release those tissues that it explains why some people will have an emotional response. And so they have a saying that the issues are in the tissues. Yes. Which which have never forgotten. And that's why that's one thing that I that I wanted to to mention.
00:42:50:00 - 00:43:39:13
Unknown
And actually on that comment, I know this is a bit of a Segway, but I was contacted by the head of the Orofacial Pain Master's program at a private university in South Sao Paolo in Brazil just a few days ago to, you know, they said they'd been following what I'm doing on lengthen and they were, you know, encouraged by me educating the dentists because that's who does their program and in conversation and this professor, Sergio, said that two years ago he completed a qualification called Samatta psychosomatic approach.
00:43:39:15 - 00:44:13:14
Unknown
And what he explained to me is that and I understand what the term means, but he to me that they have now put into their master's program, and this is for dentists and doctors, a component of screening patients to identify trauma that may have occurred at various stages of their life that ask them questions about childhood, teenage good adulthood, and about relationships with key, key members of their family during this time.
00:44:13:16 - 00:44:40:19
Unknown
And they explain to patients when something is identified that although their problem has a physical manifestation, which absolutely needs to be treated, and that's why he was so interested in the work that I'm doing, teaching dentists how to do actual physical hands on treatment, which they're not taught at all in their training. He he he said that they they have made it a component of this master's program.
00:44:40:19 - 00:45:05:22
Unknown
It's a three year program to actually begin the process, explaining to patients that unless they deal with that traumatic memory that they are bringing into their present, that they won't actually get rid of the problem in a comprehensive enough way game changer. So they're very, very advanced in their thinking because that would probably not find its way to curricula here in Australia.
00:45:05:22 - 00:45:49:20
Unknown
But it was yeah, it was an amazing conversation. It was just Saturday, not that we had this conversation and you know, we now had discussions about me being part of in some way of training some of their students. Yeah, So that was the first thing that I wanted to mention. The second thing is, since we're talking about in answer to your question about it's a complex and the nervous system, the other thing to understand is that the top three neck vertebra and the three nerves that that are coming out of that sassy one C2, C3, those nerves converge with or join with or mix with the non anatomical people listening with the trigeminal nerve in
00:45:49:20 - 00:46:25:06
Unknown
a in an area called the triad and cervical nucleus. This is your cervical spine. So it is it's like it's like one host pop coming from one side and another host pop coming from another side, joining in a pool of water and then all of the water mixing and then leading through one or the other house, pop, there's no way of knowing whether the original water or in this case sensory input actually came from the neck or whether it came from the trigeminal nerve structures.
00:46:25:08 - 00:47:07:21
Unknown
And so what that means is you can have pain in the traditional distribution that actually comes from the neck. And if you're not and understanding that and addressing the neck and the back of the skull as part of the treatment, you only half you, half you half baked. Yeah. And so we we we talked, you know, before the podcast about why my approach is not temporomandibular disorder or at least it's not the Temporomandibular method, it's the Gorecki cranial mandibular method.
00:47:07:23 - 00:47:43:03
Unknown
Because if you don't treat the cranium here, the back of the skull, you are not addressing all aspects of the presentation and vice versa. If you've got neck pain and you don't look to the jaw as a source, you might not be getting full resolution, which is why these patients that might be headache sufferers and they and they are complaining and they end up going down the medical pathway, medical, neurologic or even seeing a manual therapist who treats their neck if they are not actually looking at the jaw as a potential source again, then missing things.
00:47:43:05 - 00:48:18:07
Unknown
So I think that connection between the back of the head and the neck and the way that the and the jaw, both mechanically and neurologic actually is absolutely essential. Yes, absolutely. Game changing. Okay. And then the last thing which which is essential to understand and unfortunately happens here recently it was poorly understood, is that there's a huge connection between our airway and our jaw function.
00:48:18:09 - 00:48:52:21
Unknown
Right. So I'll explain that. Yes. If we have a compromised airway because we develop we we the airway was was narrowed and there's these reasons for that. And it links into tongue tie and other other very interesting connections. But essentially, if you've got somebody who has an airway problem, they what happens when somebody is having an event is as their box, as their body is becoming up and starved of oxygen.
00:48:52:23 - 00:49:32:17
Unknown
One of the things that can happen is that that the jaw clenches in stress because it's a stress to not enough oxygen. Then it releases the clench and then that the body drops the mandible forwards in a grinding motion. Why does it do that? It does that to open up the airway. So if somebody goes to the dentist and the dentist says, I see signs of you clenching and grinding, or the person might complain of pain and the dentist might say, I see signs of you clenching and grinding and I'm going to give you an occlusal splint to protect your teeth.
00:49:32:19 - 00:50:00:05
Unknown
Right. Which they should be doing if they don't identify that the underlying thing driver is the airway, some splints can then take up more room than that person can afford. So. So what do they do? They clench and grind more on their splint. Yeah. They go to the dentist. The dentist says, Look, you've got to wear it because otherwise your teeth are going to be destroyed.
00:50:00:07 - 00:50:29:10
Unknown
But they're not recognizing that they've missed the underlying problem, which is the airway. So you teach practitioners obviously checks on how to cover all of this. Yes, in my course I do. We talk about it in our lectures and certainly internally, our therapists, which are both TMJ sorry, physios and osteo, which we refer to on our team as TMJ therapists because we train them university the in our approach.
00:50:29:12 - 00:50:58:15
Unknown
Yeah, no, there's no difference. They're all taught to be suspicious of the airway. Ask the relevant questions, perform the appropriate airway assessments. Obviously we're not using equipment, we're just looking visually, but are certain telltale signs that we would allude to thus, and if we suspect that it is an issue, then we flag it as something that might need to be sent off for a sleep study, because that's the definitive diagnostic tool.
00:50:58:17 - 00:51:35:04
Unknown
Yes, somebody has a sleep study, whether it's a home sleep study or any hospital sleep study. It has to be reported on by a sleep physician and that sleep position will make the diagnosis. Yeah. Yes. So it's crucial that my dental colleagues and medical colleagues understand that the link exists and that there should be screening of their patients for it, because sleep apnea is by far the worse of the two evils between sore jaw or other musculoskeletal conditions or sleep apnea.
00:51:35:04 - 00:52:00:10
Unknown
Sleep apnea is a thing that can kill you. You know, your risk of stroke, high blood pressure, diabetes, cardiac disease. If you're not getting oxygen, your body is failing. And obesity, people who are very obese and are trying to lose weight, if they actually have sleep apnea, they will not lose weight because their body is just not functioning optimally.
00:52:00:12 - 00:52:28:21
Unknown
Yeah, And if we're not breathing properly at night, we're not sleeping. No. Or we're not sleeping adequately. No. And so we waking up feeling very and refreshed. And and so, you know, then you've just got the compounding effect of another day of poor posture and stress and activity and more degeneration. And you can't correct and repair. Yes. So sleep is is very, very essential.
00:52:28:21 - 00:52:59:07
Unknown
And I'm actually delivering a lecture at an amazing conference coming up in Brisbane in May called Sleep Matters. I'm not talking about sleep as such because there's so many other disciplines addressing the actual and sleep components. I'm talking while I've been asked to present a lecture on what one can to release muscle pain and tension before going to bed.
00:52:59:13 - 00:53:27:03
Unknown
So it's a very you know, it's a very isolated little sliver of information in the big context, but it's that's what I'll be talking on. So sleep is absolutely essential. Yes. Can I ask you, because I know you mainly focus on dentists in your training and your own clinical team. If there are other practitioners that want to learn your method, what what types of practitioners do you take on for training At this stage?
00:53:27:03 - 00:53:57:01
Unknown
The only way that I train anybody else who is not a dentist is if they join my team as a clinician. Yeah, So we we haven't, we haven't extended my courses as, as of now to, to the manual therapy professions and there's definitely a an interest in it and I get contacted every so often get an email saying how do I learn the group's cranial mandibular method.
00:53:57:07 - 00:54:28:16
Unknown
Yeah, but I feel like my energy and focus needs to be on the dental profession for now. Yes, because as I said, these are the gatekeepers. If we can get them to be more aware and with better assessment and history taking and and some hands on skills, now, they may choose to or may choose not to actively treat their patients, but just being aware and being able to palpate and get a good idea of what what's clinically going on.
00:54:28:18 - 00:54:58:11
Unknown
It's going to make them into better and more prompt referrals. And those patients are going to find they're going to find help sooner. So, you know, so that's why I feel like my responsible party at the moment is to focus on that. And maybe once that's gained momentum, then we can expand our education to physios. Osteo is Mihos and other body worker people.
00:54:58:13 - 00:55:27:10
Unknown
Well, my final question for you, Darren, is for my listeners who are health practitioners or business owners or leaders, what did you learn about scaling your impact? Because there's something very powerful about the shift from I need to see all the patients myself to I can multiply my impact by teaching others a method. And what advice would you give someone stuck in that perfectionist trap of thinking that they have to do it all themselves?
00:55:27:10 - 00:55:58:01
Unknown
Because even myself, I'm still learning how to do this. What's your essential final tip? I think it took me a while to realize that really I was the bottleneck in my own business. My business was just dying for air. It just it wanted to grow. But as long as I was the one, you know, responsible for delivering all those services, it it yes, it from 38 hours to 60 hours.
00:55:58:01 - 00:56:37:23
Unknown
But I nearly killed myself in the process. And then I'm going to be no good to anybody, none of my patients, not on my team, none of my family. If I if I out. So fortunately, I recognized that that was looming. And I and I decided to take actually take action on it and committed to the process. And I remember saying to Dan, who's the head of the organization that I that I joined, because we sort of had an introductory said to him, I'm not going to question your advice if you tell me to jump, I'm just going to ask how high and how often.
00:56:38:00 - 00:56:59:11
Unknown
Because if I knew, if I knew better than you, I wouldn't be in this. Exactly. So and he asked me another pivotal question, which I think speaks to what you you've asked me. He said to me, How many people can you help at the moment in a week? And I said, Well, this is the problem. You know, you know, close to 100 half hour appointments in a week.
00:56:59:11 - 00:57:40:24
Unknown
I think my highest was that 96 half hours in a week. my goodness. And he said to me, How many more could you help if you just taught people to do exactly what you do? And that really kind of stopped me and made me think is, yeah, why can't I package my approach and my knowledge and together with good training and good mentoring, creates, you know, I don't like the term many means, but essentially really replicating what I was doing and then and then trying to quality control that through the training and the mentoring.
00:57:41:01 - 00:58:16:00
Unknown
And that's essentially what we did. So I think that the other thing that I had to realize is that the business needs more. Any business needs more than just service delivery. Yeah, it needs to be managed. Clients need to be cared for, processes need to be efficient. Other team members need to have structure and support. And if you're the if you're the the where the buck stops and you're stuck consulting every day, all day, nothing else gets done.
00:58:16:02 - 00:58:56:00
Unknown
No, you can't reach your fullest potential. You can't really grow what it could be. So does that mean, you know, obviously, you know, I need to have a space where you could have multiple people and then that expands into other spaces in different areas. Is that where that leads to? I guess it depends on your objective. But I mean, I know colleagues that, you know, just run physio practices and they've that they're not on the tools anymore and they've got a team of brilliant physios doing maybe similar things to what they were doing, or maybe they've expanded into other areas of focus with all under the banner of physiotherapy, or perhaps they've decided that they,
00:58:56:00 - 00:59:20:05
Unknown
they want to incorporate other modalities, exercise physiology, you know, etc., etc.. So I guess it depends on the model that one's wanting to pursue. But the principles are the same. The principles are if you want to grow and cater as best as you can to your clients, you need to put the right building blocks in place. And I had none of those.
00:59:20:07 - 00:59:42:07
Unknown
It took eight months from the time that I joined to the time that I was able to start hiring my first physio because I needed to re re lay the foundations for that very first new team member now. And I remember putting a sign up on my desk. This is about mindset change that I really needed to make.
00:59:42:09 - 01:00:06:18
Unknown
My whole sense of self-worth was wrapped up into how many people I could help. Yeah, and as a result of helping those people, I earned an income from a family. Yeah, right. And that's why there was this kind of butterfly feeling in my stomach thinking, Is this a really bad mistake to not see as many people what happens to the money?
01:00:06:19 - 01:00:34:24
Unknown
How to pay school fees is this not financially irresponsible? But once I stepped back and gave the practice other areas of focus in my week because I had those 15 hours, I started to see how the practice started to respond positively. And I remember needing to have a sign up on my desk for quite some time that said, I no longer get paid by the hour.
01:00:35:01 - 01:00:56:07
Unknown
I get paid by the value that I bring to the hour and and that was a real mindset change that I needed to make and a way of holding myself accountable. As I said, it wasn't a case of I've got 15 hours to kick back and just have long lunches and lots of coffees. I needed to make sure that I produced results for that because it was coming at a financial cost.
01:00:56:07 - 01:01:29:01
Unknown
Initially. And you model that out, don't you, of what your new job would be and what the value add that you need to bring into your week when you're not with clients. Well, I did on paper but you see it realized that I'd been a physio for at that point 26 years. What do I know about anything, an administrator or financial or human resources or management that's not skills that, that are incorporated in, in, in our training?
01:01:29:06 - 01:02:00:15
Unknown
Yeah. So then you realize that the yes, I need to be doing these things, but it's taking way too long because I don't have the interest or the skill set to do it. And that's when I started to appreciate the value of paying the right people to do the right things. Yeah, absolutely. So with key places like this that help practitioners and, you know, how do you afford that help when you're on the tools and you're making a certain amount of money working all week at the very start?
01:02:00:15 - 01:02:24:00
Unknown
Like how did you transition from being out paying for this new service to someone remodeling everything for you? It was hard. Yeah, I'm not going to I'm not going to lie. It was it was a financial commitment that I knew that if I didn't make it, I would luck. If nothing changes, nothing changes. Yeah. Or if you always get work, you may not always.
01:02:24:03 - 01:02:39:19
Unknown
If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got. You know those familiar signs. And so I just had to I had to just invest in it. And, and, and, you know, obviously I put a time frame around and said, I'm going to do this for 12 months. I'm going to work really hard at it.
01:02:39:19 - 01:03:06:19
Unknown
And, you know, I need to see results. But that is why I said to my wife from the beginning, I said, I am not available outside of Saturday night and Sunday, not all day, Saturday, all day Sunday. I sat in my son's room. He was overseas on a gap year and I set myself up in his room as my kind of home office because I never had one.
01:03:06:19 - 01:03:40:00
Unknown
I never had office at the practice. And I dedicated myself to with together with my coach of working really hard to change all the things that we identified, like in a practice audit that I needed to do. And that was, that was a very big time commitment for me. The only day that I took over, remember, was it was the 10th of June was my birthday, and we went with some friends for the day to Ballarat just to celebrate the day and was the only day that I took off in that eight months on a weekend.
01:03:40:02 - 01:04:07:14
Unknown
Yeah. And so that that's what you have to do is it's a, it's a, it's a commitment, but if you want to he wants it badly enough and I knew that I had no choice. Yeah. You just got to be willing to do what whatever, whatever is required. And it worked in it. Yes. I am very, very fortunate to say that my life is is incredibly blessed at the moment with where we're at.
01:04:07:14 - 01:04:32:00
Unknown
And I've never loved my profession as much as I love it now, because I actually got to the stage of being really resentful. Yeah, you know, that. That I had to, you know, work so hard, so many hours, you know? And if somebody were to say, hey Let's catch up for a coffee, I'd go in my head, I'd be thinking, that said, that's a $100 cup of coffee.
01:04:32:00 - 01:05:00:13
Unknown
The block had a half hour slot. I could be seeing a patient, you know, And then I if I did it, I would do it with some sort of resentment. So, yeah, as I said, I feel very blessed to have arrived at where I am now. And and it's given me so much energy to really want to spread the, you know, the learnings that I've that I've developed over this process.
01:05:00:15 - 01:05:24:20
Unknown
And then and then more, more specifically from a professional perspective, you know, the stuff I've been talking about, about educating the dental world now, it's amazing. I've absolutely loved our chats this morning. You have, you know, demonstrated, you know, what's possible with healing pain in the TMJ and the multi dimensional approach, which I fully support is a kinesiology.
01:05:24:20 - 01:05:51:18
Unknown
Just so well done. And congratulations on all of your achievements and everything you've done for your business. I'm sure many people are listening today also being inspired of what could actually be possible for their practice and how they can take a different approach in how they can help rather than just always being on the tools and and scaling and spreading the love in a way that helps everybody.
01:05:51:20 - 01:06:25:03
Unknown
Yeah. And my final my final message is that my journey proves that it's possible because I was in a very, very deep hole and but I also want to say that it doesn't mean for people that are practitioners that really love the work they're doing. Nobody's saying that you have to give it all up. Absolutely. But that's a very different You come at it from a very different place when you do it because you love it rather than when you do it because you need to do it.
01:06:25:05 - 01:06:47:23
Unknown
That's and good point because yeah, a lot of people love being on the tools. I still do, but it doesn't mean you can't build pillars that can help structure your business in a way where you're not going to burn out and where the business doesn't rely on those consulting hours. So you do it out of love, not out of financial necessity.
01:06:48:00 - 01:07:07:20
Unknown
Yeah, and your enjoyment will be so much more. And there being people in the community of practitioners with this organization that have chosen to go back to consulting a morning a week, Why? Because they get a kick out of it, not because their practice relies on them to be there. They've got a whole team of people doing it, but they just do it because they love it.
01:07:07:20 - 01:07:39:04
Unknown
And that's I think that is the ultimate to to get to that point where you choose to do what you love, whether it be consulting or mentoring or educating. But you just have to you've got to you've got to put the right building blocks in place to get to that stage. Yeah, absolutely. So if for those listening and might be driving, know, just saying out loud, where's the best website to find your work, I'll put it all in the show notes, but where can people find you.
01:07:39:06 - 01:08:05:11
Unknown
So we that my website is Melbourne center dot com that you please make sure you use that order of words because they are practices that have used similar words and we still get patients sitting in other people's waiting rooms and we call them and say, where are you? And they're coming your waiting room and they're not. Yeah, there can be confusion around clinic names.
01:08:05:11 - 01:08:27:18
Unknown
We're only in Caulfield North and then of course I can be contacted on LinkedIn as well. You can just look up Darren Gorski, which is to double our own and then the surname Geo, or I'll ask why and I'll be more than happy to connect with anybody who reaches out. Lovely. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Darren.
01:08:27:18 - 01:08:48:08
Unknown
It's been so awesome chatting to you. I've loved it. Thank you so much, Amanda. Good luck to you. My pleasure. And remember, everybody, that flexibility builds resilience and when we can be more flexible and adaptable, we can reimagine what can be possible. I'll see you guys next time.
01:08:48:08 - 01:08:56:13
Unknown
Thanks for listening to the Bend Like Bamboo podcast. If this conversation resonated, please share it with someone who needs to hear it.
01:08:56:15 - 01:09:20:23
Unknown
And if you're ready to go deeper, whether you're managing chronic symptoms, leading through burnout or seeking guidance and community, I'd love to welcome you into the Bend like Bamboo Family. Don't forget to subscribe and I'm here to support you wherever you are right now. Book a clarity chat with me and let's just talk about what's happening in your body, your work and your life.
01:09:21:00 - 01:09:42:02
Unknown
All the links to join our community and also how to get in touch with our guests in the show notes. Remember, with a flexible mindset, we can adapt, transform our story, and reimagine what's possible. I'll see you next time.