EP 39 Rachel Child and HR Education in Iambic Pentameter

In this episode Tony and Steve welcome back Rachel Child in iambic pentameter and great hazas to talk about the intersection of HR education and real-world practice. Rachel shares how she found her way into the profession — and what she’s seeing from the next generation of HR professionals.  This episode touches on leadership accountability, HR education, culture vs. compliance, the realities of entering the HR profession, and why the success of HR often starts at the very top of an organization.

This episode includes a new segment centered on a real world, short case study.  If you like or hate the segment, let us know.  [e-mail].  

Quote of the episode:
“A good HR person is a good business person.” – Rachel Child

Learn more about Rachel Child at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachelm-child/
Learn more about Fantastic Tony Benjamin at: https://www.thegrangellc.com/
Learn more about Steven “Big Deal” Smith at: https://thehiringtreebook.com/
Learn more about the books mentioned on the podcast at: https://thehiringtreebook.com/hr-life-podcast
Learn more about our sponsor MegastarHR at: https://www.megastarhr.com/
Learn more about Pucks for Autism at: https://www.pucksforautism.com/

Rachel Child is a human resources professional, consultant, and full-time faculty member teaching HR at Weber State University. Before entering academia, she spent years working as an HR manager and HR generalist in industry, later running her own HR consultancy. Rachel now teaches the next generation of HR professionals while continuing to consult and serve in leadership roles within the HR community.

Creators and Guests

Host

Fantastic Tony Benjamin

I am a unique HR leader with more than 20 years’ experience working for some of Utah’s oldest, fastest growing, and most well-known companies. My experience includes Superior Drilling Products, Air Medical Resource Group, Control4, Ovivo USA and Deseret Book. I am a regionally recognized authority on building successful cultures and am an alumni speaker at DisruptHR SLC and DisruptHR St. George. I have earned an MBA from the University of Phoenix, a Bachelor’s degree from Utah State University, and am a certified Professional of Human Resources (PHR). I'm married to a woman out of my league, have three brilliant kids I doesn’t deserve and, although I travel a lot, live in Vernal, Utah.

Host

Steven "Big Deal" Smith

Steve will be the first to tell you that recruiting is marketing. He earned his Bachelor of Science in Finance at Brigham Young University and started his career in recruiting in Feb 2005. In 2008, he took a risk during a recession to help start a new company with Ryan Kohler, called ApplicantPro, a full suite HR platform for small to mid-sized businesses. In March 2025, ApplicantPro became iSolved Talent Acquisition, now serving 177,000 clients and close to 9800 employees. Before the merger, ApplicantPro made the Inc 5000 list 12 years in a row, Top Places to work in Utah 3 years in a row, and Steve was named the Small Business Utah HR Achievement Award winner in May 2024. iSolved was also named an Indeed Platinum Partner in 2023, 2024, and 2025 and is one of only ten ATS platforms in the country to obtain that designation. SHRM-CP & PHR certified, Steve currently volunteers on the Utah SHRM State Council as the immediate past State Executive Director. His book, The Hiring Tree: Laws of Applicant Attraction, was released in early 2023, and has helped thousands of organizations across the country rethink their approach to hiring. If you need help understanding the principles and role of SEO, marketing, and AI when it comes to attracting job seekers, Steve provides a solid framework for hiring effectively.

What is The HR Life Podcast?

The HR Life Podcast is a show about the work-life experience of those of us in Human Resources and business leadership. This long-form podcast is a conversation, casual, and not always the corporate line. Hosts and guests touch on everything from serious or even controversial topics to the absurdity of modern American business practices. Your hosts are Tony Benjamin, owner and founder of The Grange Strategic HR Consulting, and Steven J. Smith, Author of The Hiring Tree: Laws of Applicant Attraction and all-around important guy. Guests include the best minds in the HR world. Join the show weekly.

Tony Benjamin (00:08.216)
Attend good friends and lend your patient ears to the HR life podcast where we unfold the tales of toil and triumph wrought with the busy marts of work and trade. Here gather we to speak of work days trials of stratagems and subtle arts of men and women who in human resources stand and guide the helms of commerce through the storm. Your host this hour bold fantastic Tony Sir Benjamin, whose counsel shapes the field.

Steve-o (00:16.972)
you

Tony Benjamin (00:37.777)
founder of the grain strategic HR, a steward of wise workplace harmony. And with him stands brave Steven styled big deal, whose fame in distant galaxies resounds for he it was who did persuade the great many to join the ranks of HR and thus recruit on a higher plane. So sit thee down and mark what shall be spoke for mirth and wisdom here do walk as

Hey Steve!

Steve-o (01:05.954)
I don't even know what to say right now. As soon as you started, was like, I was gonna mimic you with my mouth and everything, and I was like, nope, that's not happening. What is going on?

Tony Benjamin (01:19.613)
So they're laughing in the background with this. And in her honor was the introduction given an iambic pentameter is Rachel Child. Yay. Go crowd. There we go. Yeah. There you are.

Steve-o (01:24.256)
Yeah, that was definitely in her honor.

Rachel Child (01:30.667)
Thank you. there we are.

Steve-o (01:33.39)
Sorry, we had to cue him. They were still like in awe with Tony. They're like, wait, what just happened?

Tony Benjamin (01:42.801)
Well, it's all in it's all in honor of Rachel and her fantastic, dramatic past as a Shakespearean thespian.

Rachel Child (01:54.475)
Those are my roots. There was a time when I considered getting a doctorate in Shakespeare and going around and judging young youth in Shakespeare, but that did not come to fruition.

Steve-o (02:05.206)
All we need now, we need a studio audience that goes, ha-sa, ha-sa.

Rachel Child (02:11.595)
Right?

Steve-o (02:13.27)
then we'd really have it.

Tony Benjamin (02:15.387)
No, I just I couldn't help it. I thought Rachel's going to be on the podcast. I have to come up with an intro for Steve and I thought I'm going to do it all in iambic pentameter. But Steve is the man who who is, you know, who has persuaded many to join the great ranks of HR and and recruit on a higher plane.

Steve-o (02:27.305)
Wow.

Steve-o (02:36.29)
That, you know, there, I hate to say it, there's a lot of truth to that.

Tony Benjamin (02:42.525)
Right?

Steve-o (02:44.566)
I, whenever I can give you like kudos and say you're right, Tony, it, it's just, hurts so bad.

Tony Benjamin (02:47.453)
I see. I see. I see. Well, Rachel, again, welcome to the podcast. We're so happy you're back with this. This is cool. Like we promised like the episode after you were first on that you were going to be back and not just at the conference, but you were going to talk to us again. And we're stoked that you're finally here.

Steve-o (03:03.722)
long time ago.

Steve-o (03:10.99)
It's been like six months, I think. I don't know, something like that. It's been a while. I mean, because I've already been to your class twice since then.

Rachel Child (03:13.451)
It has been because the conference. That's true. And Tony's coming the second time here in about a month, April 1st, April Fool's Day. So.

Tony Benjamin (03:13.991)
Yeah.

you

Steve-o (03:23.266)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (03:23.346)
Yeah, yeah. Yep. Yes, which is yes. Yes. It's an auspicious state, so.

Steve-o (03:26.734)
Well, that's a good day. I'm so jealous right now.

Rachel Child (03:30.569)
I

Steve-o (03:33.55)
I had one of my favorites people I ever worked with started on April Fool's Day and I totally contemplated whether I should make that a joke or not or just or just like not be in the office and not show up. I don't know. I was totally like orientation. I was trying to think of ways to make it fun. And I thought I better not do this because she might take it seriously or never come back. know, so anyway, I did think about it, though.

Tony Benjamin (03:47.165)
You

Tony Benjamin (03:56.061)
Right, right. Well, it was my first day and they played jokes on me. Yeah. So Rachel, what have you been up to for the last little while with the last time we had you on the podcast was at the work elevated conference. So what have you been doing since then?

Rachel Child (03:59.06)
Yeah.

Steve-o (04:04.6)
Ha ha ha.

Steve-o (04:16.11)
Yeah.

Rachel Child (04:16.468)
Yes.

Wow, that's a big question because I have so much happening. I am now the president of our local SHRM chapter. So that is something for this year that I've taken on. And I'm actually teaching overload because we have a staff member out. So that's been fun. And then I participate on hiring committees whenever I have the chance because I miss it.

Steve-o (04:37.558)
Wow.

Rachel Child (04:45.963)
when in teaching you don't get a lot of those. And I feel like hiring is one of the positive parts of HRA. And so I really miss that. And so I was on a hiring committee and I'm on a couple of student committees. They weren't able to replace the college relations person quite yet. We just barely got somebody who's willing. So I'm running the case competition again this year. So if, yeah, I just.

Tony Benjamin (04:51.751)
Yep.

Tony Benjamin (05:01.789)
Wow.

Steve-o (05:06.322)
Wow, you're as bad as I am.

Rachel Child (05:10.699)
Right? I've got to start saying no. I did have had the opportunity to consult with a couple of organizations in the past little bit and do some training on communications. And that's been really fun. Something that I really enjoy and opportunity to. Sometimes when you're teaching, you feel like your skills can go a little flat and I love opportunities to not have that happen. So anyway.

Tony Benjamin (05:22.04)
That's good.

Tony Benjamin (05:35.494)
Very cool, very cool. And you told them all that you expect them to answer emails when in labor, right? That was

Steve-o (05:36.94)
That's a good...

Rachel Child (05:41.131)
It's yeah, that's what I draw a line. I'm like, no. And yeah, I it's just blows me away. Still, I love that that connected with you too.

Steve-o (05:42.232)
That's absolutely right.

Tony Benjamin (05:45.183)
Hahaha

Yeah.

Steve-o (05:51.662)
It's still one of my favorite stories.

Tony Benjamin (05:53.721)
It is, it is. It's one of the best stories on the podcast ever. So.

Rachel Child (05:57.971)
Hmm.

Steve-o (05:58.018)
I just, Rachel, I'm gonna be honest. What I really need is for you and me to schedule a time where we can mimic you and labor and I'll be the doctor and Tony will call in and ask about a work-related item where we could do a video for just for for, you know, for social media or whatever.

Rachel Child (06:07.915)
you

Tony Benjamin (06:17.501)
That's right.

Rachel Child (06:17.827)
Okay, so I just, I just, I'm gonna need to see a storyboard on that one before I agree. May or may not.

Steve-o (06:25.782)
Nice.

Tony Benjamin (06:27.517)
Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Child (06:29.387)
fun when you're the doctor but not the person in labor.

Steve-o (06:34.158)
that's a good point. Yeah. I didn't think about that. Sorry. That would even be better. That would be better. Let's be honest.

Tony Benjamin (06:34.301)
Yeah.

Rachel Child (06:37.141)
What if I'm the doctor and you're in labor? Let's go that route. Then Tony calls a call for Steve. I would feel better about that.

Tony Benjamin (06:38.941)
You

Tony Benjamin (06:45.403)
That's right. And we get we get Steve and the question is, is there's a person here in the office that feels like she's being discriminated against. Yeah. So.

Steve-o (06:49.486)
.

Rachel Child (06:55.733)
Yeah.

Steve-o (06:57.004)
Or even better, could be like a phone call from an applicant and I've got an interview right then.

Rachel Child (07:02.155)
You're like, one moment.

Tony Benjamin (07:02.511)
Right, So and so what? Right. Yeah.

Steve-o (07:08.501)
man.

Rachel Child (07:09.112)
Tell me about a time when you were under duress. how? How did you handle it?

Tony Benjamin (07:12.509)
That's right. That's that's awesome. That's that's awesome. Yes. OK. For everybody listening to podcast, keep an eye out for that. That might happen. That might happen. Rachel, again, welcome here. And why don't you remind us again, talk to us a little bit about how you got into HR. We've we've talked about this before, but let's let's recap that again. Of course, the Shakespearean roots are of primal primal importance on such a discussion.

Rachel Child (07:40.873)
We probably want to refresh people's memory on that.

Tony Benjamin (07:43.427)
Right, right, exactly.

Rachel Child (07:45.931)
I didn't know what Human Resources was probably through like my high school years. I was a theater geek hence our tips to the tip of the hat to bar to the bard. I'm old Bill Shakespeare. I have been to Stratford upon Avon. I did visit his grave. That was neat. I did watch so in high school I

Tony Benjamin (08:05.629)
Wow.

Steve-o (08:12.076)
I love the pause, the slight pause there. That was neat.

Tony Benjamin (08:13.658)
Yeah, yeah, it was neat

Rachel Child (08:17.931)
looking back it's like, here we are, right? We made it. So.

Steve-o (08:25.838)
Did you leave a flower or a penny or something?

Rachel Child (08:28.763)
No, maybe I should have. Maybe that's why it's it was just plain old neat. I don't know. So I was in Midsummer Night's Dream when I was in high school. And in that I from that I was offered a scholarship for theater to the College of Eastern Utah. And I ended up being a little worried about taking an acting scholarship and being forced to act. And so I took an academic one and

Steve-o (08:30.584)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (08:33.617)
Hahaha

Steve-o (08:56.184)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Child (08:58.923)
was there and then I started dating my husband and moved home. But I did place in a Shakespeare competition once. got second place. And it was really great. And then that was the little mm.

Tony Benjamin (09:03.924)
Ooh.

Steve-o (09:07.17)
Ha ha ha.

Tony Benjamin (09:09.371)
Wish everybody could have seen that Vogue pose right there. That was awesome. Yeah, right, right. Yeah, exactly.

Steve-o (09:11.854)
I know, right? It was definitely Vogue. I totally saw Madonna just now.

Rachel Child (09:17.839)
and yes, so following that I started college. moved home because I started dating my now husband. and then went to Weber state. I was going to do social work, but my heart is a little too tender for that. And so I moved into,

They have what's called a Bachelor of Integrated Studies. So I chose essentially three majors, which was psychology, sales, and business. And when I got into business, all of the sudden, I really, really loved it. And actually, now my master's degree is in business. In college, met somebody, Christina London, who got her PhD. And I thought, well, if I want to go into human resources, which was sort of my focus at the time,

Tony Benjamin (09:50.525)
There we go.

Rachel Child (10:07.113)
that would be a way to do it is to have the PHR certification, which led me to getting my first human resources management job. And yeah, I was HR manager for a time at a place whose culture didn't necessarily match my values.

Tony Benjamin (10:22.5)
Hence the pregnancy and labor story, right? Yes. Right.

Steve-o (10:24.43)
Ha

Rachel Child (10:24.747)
Yes, hence the story of the office, what was the office culture of a woman who answered her emails while in labor. And I was like, that's never going to be the kind of worker I am. And clearly, it's generational. I'm pretty sure she's Gen X. I was millennial, was as if I've changed. I am a millennial.

Steve-o (10:34.862)
.

Tony Benjamin (10:48.465)
you know.

Steve-o (10:49.678)
You converted to GenX or something?

Rachel Child (10:52.631)
I'm generation, you know, flexible. yeah.

Tony Benjamin (10:55.101)
Fluent fluid.

Steve-o (10:55.438)
I'm on the cusp of Gen X and millennial because I'm right there in the late 70s and so I have a lot of attributes of Gen X but then I also have millennial attributes. I'm one of those mixed follies. Yeah, something like that.

Rachel Child (11:03.146)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Child (11:08.095)
The exenial, they have a, uh-huh. Yeah, there's that's, they call it a micro generation. Cause like we remember what it was like without the tech, but still grew up with it.

Tony Benjamin (11:10.487)
X-Haniel.

Steve-o (11:17.966)
I'm glad you said that because I had a colleague of mine said that I was just simply a mutt, but that sounds much better, Exenial, so there you go.

Tony Benjamin (11:20.349)
Yeah, I like that much better. That's right. That's right.

Rachel Child (11:27.891)
Yeah, it does kind of like goes with your X-Men theme, Steve. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so that's that's me in a nutshell started HR manager job. Actually, my first one lasted about 10 months. I fired 500 people. I laid them off. It was like a proverbial drink from a fire hose of employee relations part of HR. And then I went into a generalist role took sort of a step back, but it was a really, really great move for me.

Steve-o (11:32.628)
yeah, there you go. I can be the Wolverine.

Tony Benjamin (11:50.781)
Good for you.

Rachel Child (11:54.283)
for a company called Genco. And then I was there for eight and a half years until I had my son, ran a consultancy, my little micro consultancy, just me. And then I have, I started teaching adjunct in 2020. And then in 2023 was offered a full-time faculty role. And that's where I am now. So I love when my students tell me they don't know what they want to be when they grow up, because I still don't, but this is where I am and I'm learning all I can. And we'll see, you know, when I grow up a few more years, what happens. So.

Tony Benjamin (12:20.539)
Yeah, that's the right attitude about it all. Okay, so the last time we were on here, right, we asked you the heavy hitting question. What is the state of HR? In the meantime, what are your thoughts about the state of HR now? Have you heard some stuff recently that's kind of changed your mind or view or what's your current thoughts on the state of HR right now?

Rachel Child (12:44.971)
So as I've pondered on it since the first podcast, as well as had the opportunity to listen to the others, really something has come to mind. So in organizational behavior, we talk about theory X and theory Y leadership. And theory X leaders, they kind of assume workers are lazy and don't like to work and they need supervision. They're more authoritarian leaders. And theory Y,

leaders are the ones who believe employees are intrinsically motivated and enjoy work and seek responsibility, right? And so I feel like you see really great HR in the more theory-y, heavy organizations, right, that believe people want to work and they'll do great work, right? It reminds me of the bamboo HR tagline of, set people free, set people free to do great work. And that's more, the more theory-y organizations were the ones that, that still

go TheoryX. And I do feel like it is a little bit generational, right? The older generations have more of a TheoryX mentality, that people have to be forced to work and, you know, you have to watch them and they need strict rules and all of that, right? I think those are the types of organizations that don't leverage HR as well as they could. They use them as the people in the back office who write people up and fire them and create our offer letters, and they're not

Tony Benjamin (13:42.749)
huh. you

Steve-o (13:54.473)
Ha.

Tony Benjamin (14:08.061)
Right.

Rachel Child (14:09.899)
helping them, right, work in the organization. I always tell my students a good HR person is a good business person. And we're not just like the party termination people, right? Like we, we can be leveraged as excellent HR, like excellent resources for creating positive outcomes in a business. And so that's one of the thoughts I have had is

Steve-o (14:18.873)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Child (14:36.893)
Yeah, you see really fantastic companies with fantastic HR, right? And then you see some that are still struggling. And I feel like the theory X and theory Y are prevalent in that way in both of those types of organizations.

Tony Benjamin (14:45.373)
You know, that's really cool. Do you think that that comes from ownership or executive leadership of the company, or do you think it generates in HR first and permeates out to the rest of the organization?

Rachel Child (15:07.549)
If you don't have buy-in from the owner or the CEO or at least the acting president on the site, you can't as HR paddle that boat alone. Because, yeah.

Steve-o (15:16.302)
I'm with you on that. Yeah. To me, it's always top down, right? If the leaders aren't willing to adopt, live the principles, like all of that, there's no way you're going to convince employees to even want to participate because, yeah, I mean, they see the leader, right? They're going to follow the leader. That's just why we call them leaders.

Tony Benjamin (15:21.115)
No, that's, yeah.

Rachel Child (15:26.645)
ways.

Rachel Child (15:44.199)
Thanks.

Steve-o (15:45.751)
So.

Rachel Child (15:46.699)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (15:46.933)
Yeah, no, that's and one of the one of the best things I think I've done lately to get a pulse on HR is join some big groups on on Facebook that are just HR people, right? And there's lots of they put in questions in there, they do whatever is going on. And I bet a good third of them are just my leadership won't buy in.

What do I do? Right? Yeah.

Steve-o (16:13.261)
Yeah. Yeah, I see that a lot too. And some of the groups I'm a part of it's and it's sad if you think about it, because those types of HR professionals are struggling. They're the ones that are more likely to be burned out. They're the ones who can't really put into practice what they have learned and what their colleagues are helping them understand and guide them along, you know, and say, well, in my experience, you know, we did blah, blah. And so

I don't know. I think it's really hard for those types of HR professionals because they cannot, they'll never grow. They're never going to learn new things because they're kind of stuck in this rut, if you will. I mean, don't know how else to describe that, but I do see that quite a bit and it almost, it pains me if you're a leader out there and you own a company, CEO or whatever, this one's for you. You need to shape up because your organization not only depends on you, but your HR team.

Tony Benjamin (16:53.565)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (17:03.325)
You

Steve-o (17:10.369)
that defines the very people that you're hiring absolutely depends on you. And you have to set that precedence. And I know there are some CEOs and I saw a panel a couple of weeks ago and they were complaining that HR is not really stepping it up. And I'm like, I don't know what world you're in, but there's a lot of HR people stepping up that I've seen. And so obviously they're not looking in the right place or they're just simply not paying attention. So.

Rachel Child (17:37.011)
Well, I think from my perspective, it's been I want you to conduct this initiative while I do whatever I please. And the problem is whatever I please. Right. It's like, no, you're not pulling your weight because you're not changing their mind. You're setting the tone whether or not the words on our walls say something different. And I think that's kind of where the mismatch can become. It really the leaders have to be willing to embody the stated values. And if they fail to do so,

Tony Benjamin (17:39.933)
Right.

Steve-o (17:44.696)
Yeah.

Rachel Child (18:06.761)
the underlying acted values will be what the leader allows and gets away with themselves or for others.

Steve-o (18:17.367)
Absolutely.

Tony Benjamin (18:17.634)
No, yeah, no, that's that's exactly right. That that is that exactly right. Hey, it's like on that movie. Send help. Right, Steve? That's exactly it. So we've.

Steve-o (18:25.942)
boy.

Rachel Child (18:29.301)
I heard you mention it in the last podcast. I haven't gotten to what will be released this week yet.

Steve-o (18:35.598)
You

Tony Benjamin (18:37.077)
No, anyway. But by the way, thank you, Rachel. And that's that's really cool. Thank you for saying that. And I think I think what you just said is also really cool. Maybe for me to hear also is that as you've heard other people answer those questions, right on the podcast, that it gives you a wider view. Yeah, I know it's changing my view dramatically of what human where human resources is. I had a much more cynical view of it when we started the podcast and I

Steve-o (18:53.142)
It helps shape and mold and yeah.

Rachel Child (19:04.767)
Interesting.

Tony Benjamin (19:05.677)
And I think that I'm getting a much more nuanced view. I'm still cynical, truthfully, about the state of HR. But I think I understand more why it's in this state it is and how that goes along. So thank you for saying that. That's really cool.

Rachel Child (19:25.045)
will say, right, forgive me for interrupting, I don't want someone to come away feeling like the future is bleak if my CEO isn't embodying values. But what I will say is also you have control over the microculture where you are, right? So be additive wherever you are, however you can be, until you get into the situation where there is better values, culture alignment.

Tony Benjamin (19:27.665)
No, you're good.

Steve-o (19:48.648)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (19:53.237)
Excellent. Yes, yes. Model what you want it to be and around you. then any smart leader, whether or not they value HR or not, is going to see that microculture surrounding you and that people produce better around you. That's a brilliant point. Thank you. OK, I'm going to go ahead, Steve. Go ahead.

Steve-o (20:09.166)
That's so true. That's so true. I love that. Because you know, I'll go ahead. I mean, I was just gonna say that the thing about that is, is you're relying on the fact that the CEO can actually change. And the reality is, is I have seen leaders change for the better, right? And I'm not saying everybody is a Scrooge, but the reality is, we do have leaders are learning just like anybody else, right? They might have this

Tony Benjamin (20:26.941)
Yep. Yeah.

Rachel Child (20:34.805)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (20:37.154)
Brilliant mind and they're able to develop this organization and make it run I've seen that happen, but at the same time they still make mistakes They still do things that are detrimental and and depending on their state of mind or what's happening at the time Sometimes they're not in the best of sorts, you know or moods or whatever and it can vary right and so we just have to look at the big picture and not just the little mini episodes that sometimes we used to define people so

Rachel Child (21:06.111)
I agree. And I feel like sometimes it's even a willingness to apologize, right? If, if I am the runner of an organization and something goes wrong, rather than point the finger at everybody else, I can say, guys, this went wrong. And here's what my hand was in it. Now, how do we make it better versus being defensive or angry or you're the problem, not me, right? And so I think it has everything to do with maybe a little bit of humility.

Steve-o (21:10.317)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (21:28.578)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (21:32.526)
Yeah, Josh Prakhizen said that really well on the episode. said that when people have complaints, he's like he blames himself. He's like, you blame me first before you go blame everybody else. Blame me first. Come to me. And I've I've always admired that about him because I remember working with him and he was that way, too. Right. And so it's just it's an interesting train of thought. And you're right, there is an element of humility there. And to me, those are the best kind of leaders that own it.

Rachel Child (22:01.291)
Absolutely.

Tony Benjamin (22:02.845)
Very good. All right, I'm gonna hit our read now. Running a business is hard. HR shouldn't be. Megastar HR is here to save you from bad HR. With expert support and everything from hiring to handbooks, compliance to culture, need payroll help or recruiting power, we do that too. Fractionally and flexibly, no overhead, just results. Visit megastarhr.com and let's grow your business together.

Shout out to Becca and thank you for doing that.

Steve-o (22:34.968)
Tony, I am so disappointed you did not do that in iambic pentameter. I'm just saying.

Tony Benjamin (22:41.188)
I was tempted. I. Now, well, OK, maybe for another episode, we'll we'll do it. And I am. But I was thinking of I was. Yeah, that's kind of what that's kind what I was thinking is I don't know that she'd love it if I suddenly switched her into Shakespearean English. Maybe she wouldn't mind. So who knows? But it was thanks back for helping us out. Yeah, yeah, I would. It'd be different.

Rachel Child (22:41.833)
I was hoping, but.

Steve-o (22:43.438)
So as I I was waiting for it

You'll have to get back his permission though, right?

Steve-o (23:04.95)
I mean, it would stand out, right?

Tony Benjamin (23:09.277)
Okay, now I wanted to Rachel, I wanted to talk to you about this because you talked about how people when you were getting your degrees and that had influence over you and suggesting HR and those sorts of things. And we've heard that same story a number of times on the podcast. Let me ask you this is because you work in this environment. Why do some professors or instructors at universities or colleges? Why?

Steve-o (23:24.782)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (23:38.129)
Like, what do you, what is the motivation when they, when they prompt somebody to say, Hey, why don't you try HR? And, and here's, here's why I asked this question, because the cynical me from an outside, if, if, if someone doesn't have a lot of faith in HR and they say, they, they, hear of a professor going to a student and saying, Hey, maybe you should try HR. You'd be really good at it. Maybe the cynical answer is this, right. Right. Like.

Rachel Child (24:04.408)
Right? Might be offensive.

Steve-o (24:07.918)
you

Rachel Child (24:08.043)
Thank

Tony Benjamin (24:08.294)
Yeah, you're not that capable. So why don't you try HR? So talk to me about that process and what people think and kind of what goes into that. Because we've heard that story a lot and you can give us the inside scoop.

Rachel Child (24:21.259)
So I would say when I suggest it to students, it probably has a bit different connotation, right? Because I was a practitioner for so long, but I think sometimes they see people and they're, well, you're a people person. Well, why don't you try HR, right? And not every, not every university has the same requirements on the business end for HR people that they do business people. So occasionally it can be,

Tony Benjamin (24:27.825)
Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Steve-o (24:45.71)
Mm-hmm

Rachel Child (24:50.943)
Well, if they're not hitting their math goals, or if they're not, you know, hitting the other goals, then maybe we can, you might be successful there. But we did talk about how a good HR person is a good business person. And yes, you can use Excel in the business world, but as long as you understand the concepts of how that's working, that's what matters, right? I think sometimes people imagine, you know, like a personality type for HR. But HR has such depth and breadth. Christina London often

Steve-o (25:08.725)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Child (25:19.539)
will say there's warm and fuzzy HR people and there's not warm and fuzzy HR people and she's on the not warm and fuzzy HR person side, then I'm totally on the warm fuzzy HR person side, right? And so you don't have to just like want to love and squeeze people all the time, right? There are great opportunities for the use of analytics and numbers in the field of human resources. So I think sometimes they're just like, you like people, you know, and Tony, wasn't it you who said, just give it a minute.

Tony Benjamin (25:28.207)
Yeah. Yeah.

Steve-o (25:47.694)
I

Tony Benjamin (25:49.605)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you'll get over that. Right.

Rachel Child (25:50.175)
Yeah.

Steve-o (25:50.988)
He always says that.

Rachel Child (25:57.131)
Yeah.

Steve-o (25:57.986)
I don't know, I still kind of genuinely like people. There are some weird ones out there, I will say that, but.

Rachel Child (26:05.949)
When I, one of my mentors, when I told him I wanted to do HR and that I wanted to help people, I think that's the word I use. want to help people. was like, his eyes got big and he was like, okay. And he was the VP of the place. I ended up getting my first HR manager job. And, he's like, well, I'm sure you'll do that. But you know, he was very, he let me down easy, because it's probably.

Tony Benjamin (26:17.533)
Hahaha.

Tony Benjamin (26:25.981)
You

Tony Benjamin (26:31.668)
Yeah, probably easier than I let people down. That's true. Yeah.

Rachel Child (26:35.701)
Probably. But he didn't want to crush my delightful warm fuzzy spirit maybe, I don't know. But it was definitely, yeah, go ahead.

Tony Benjamin (26:43.879)
So no, and yeah, no, and I like people too. I like people too. I just I've I've seen enough in that that that that isn't the motivation that gets me through that stuff. Right. And it just I don't know. And there are some people I guess I've seen and done enough that I know that lots of people try to take advantage of you. And and it's very easy to become very cynical about all that stuff. Very

everything from, hey, I've got this bill that I can't pay. Can you help me? And I'm like, well, the company's got a charity fund. We help sometimes. Why can't you pay the bill? Like, what's going on? Well, I went on this six day bender with my wife in Vegas last week and we spent all of our money and I can't afford to pay it. And I'm like, that doesn't work for me. You know, and they're and they're telling me something like, well, I don't have money to buy diapers for my baby. And I'm just like,

Yeah, just that's the right. That's the sort of thing. Right. Right. Right. No. that's it. Then. Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Child (27:44.203)
What if you prioritized better?

Steve-o (27:48.046)
Hahaha

Well, you know, one of our previous guests, Stacey Peterson, talked a lot about that, too, about how you love loving people is not enough. It's not enough because when the challenges come, when the language of business starts creeping in, the influence, the culture, the coaching and the connections, all the things right. It will absolutely have an impact on all of those things. And if if you're only there simply because you love people.

It's not enough to carry you through the craziness of HR. It's just not enough.

Tony Benjamin (28:24.962)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Child (28:27.389)
Especially because in HR, the most part, not for the most part, but often in human resources, you're not dealing with people at their best. And it's easy to get some compassion fatigue over time with that as well, right?

Steve-o (28:36.93)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (28:41.872)
Yeah. No, that's a very good point. And if Andrea were here, she'd say that's empathy fatigue, right? Instead of the compassion. But yeah, that's an excellent point, Rachel. That's an excellent point. So the next question I want to ask you is, because you're teaching students and you're going through all that, how is the HR curriculum changing right now? Do you see?

Steve-o (28:49.74)
Yeah, she would. Yeah.

Rachel Child (28:51.051)
No.

Tony Benjamin (29:06.215)
colleges, universities, and granted, you've got your scope of this, but do you see them changing the curriculum? Is it in a state of change or is it pretty static right now?

Rachel Child (29:18.347)
I would say I am granted a lot of academic freedom. So when I was given the role to teach the Intro to HR class, I created it from scratch and how I wanted to do it. It really was. The challenge, I would say, is when you get faculty that aren't primarily focused on human resources. And I would say this isn't just my organization specific. The default becomes

Tony Benjamin (29:29.917)
That's cool.

Rachel Child (29:47.839)
the easiest textbook to deal with. And HR is so dynamic that textbooks in the old school sense are not very, they're becoming more and more either online, so updatable more frequently, or even obsolete. So.

Steve-o (30:14.045)
So I'm doing my master's program right now with Western Governors and I will say there are a few texts that they've required that we read and some of them are out of date. One of them I think was like 2002 and I thought, man.

Rachel Child (30:14.207)
Yes.

Tony Benjamin (30:19.581)
Yeah, yeah.

Steve-o (30:28.46)
This is nothing compared to what we're dealing with right now. And you could tell. But then I've also read several that they that they require and they're completely up to date. They even have AI stuff in there and the implications there. they have I don't know. It's fascinating, but you can absolutely tell the difference. sometimes I think I wonder if the student can tell the difference. Do they know that, OK, this looks this seems outdated or they just take it at face value because.

I know some students, they just take it at face value. don't think about it otherwise. But me being in the world right now and seeing what's happening in our sphere, right? It amazes me when I read some articles and I'm like, my gosh, this is so far away from what's going on right now that you could tell the article was older, right? So it's intriguing.

Rachel Child (31:17.37)
I'd probably say it's about 90-10, and 10 on the side of the people who are really meticulous about it. For instance, in my class this semester, I'm teaching about the Fair Labor Standards Act, and there have been so many nuanced changes, right? So initially, it was stayed to go up to like $53,000. I think it was January of 20.

Steve-o (31:24.803)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Child (31:43.317)
five, but then they defaulted back to the July of 24 statute and then further case law disputed that and took it back way, way to the prior to that statute for $35,000 for the salary threshold in FLSA. Well, in my recorded lecture, because this class is online, it's not live. We talk about the July of 2024 standard and I have students who are like, that's not true.

And they're outright calling me out. And I'm like, you're right. And, and well, it's true. And the challenge is exactly, I completely agree. the challenge is going to be right. So I, it changes. then I pause because I don't know what's about to happen. Right. We had a new, we have a new administration and we have a new thing. So it's like, you know what, for the ones who, the 90 % who aren't going to care.

Tony Benjamin (32:13.648)
Wow.

Steve-o (32:17.12)
But they're right, yeah. And kudos to them for staying on top of it, right?

Tony Benjamin (32:29.277)
Yeah.

Rachel Child (32:42.263)
but then I do have my 10 % who are like, lady, you are wrong. And I'm like, you're correct. I am incorrect there.

Tony Benjamin (32:46.359)
That's

Steve-o (32:48.038)
and they love to point it out. I have a few clients that way where they love to call out stuff and and and and I'm like, OK, so I get what you're trying to say, but let's yeah, the majority. Here's where it's going. So you may want to follow the majority.

Rachel Child (32:51.849)
Indeed.

Rachel Child (33:07.647)
Well, and I'm guessing there are a few who notice and are just like, that's probably a little old, right? And then there's a few who are like, I need you to know that I know that you're wrong. And it's probably personality types. And really, I actually enjoy that. I like feeling like my students care. You know what I mean? Like if I'm the only one who cares, then I need to be the first, right? If I'm the CEO of my classroom, my

Steve-o (33:10.318)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (33:27.709)
Yeah.

Steve-o (33:28.332)
Yeah, I enough to know.

Steve-o (33:34.189)
Yeah.

Rachel Child (33:37.035)
my attitude is going to filter through the rest of my group regardless. But I really love the astute learner. And generally when students point stuff out like that to me, I usually throw them some extra credit points. I'm like, that's exactly right. Continue to be great. And so.

Steve-o (33:53.607)
you could totally play it too and say I was totally testing you. Good job. Here's some extra points.

Rachel Child (33:57.035)
Right?

Tony Benjamin (33:58.653)
Right, right, right.

Rachel Child (33:59.915)
Well, I even this semester had a student. He was the first to try and take my test and something went wrong in the testing center. But with the way I uploaded it and one field was missing a date. And he couldn't get in, so he luckily called me while he was at the testing center. I'm like, pause, I'm going to fix this, right? And so I just, you know, give him some extra credit for his time and effort and patience. Because, man.

Steve-o (34:25.752)
Yeah, because some people don't even take the time,

Rachel Child (34:28.787)
Right? Or they would just lambast me or email me. Right? I have a Google voice number that my students have access to that they can call me in case of something like that. Like, I want to be able to fix it in real time so he doesn't have to go home, email me, or go to a lab and email me. Within 10 minutes, he was in taking his test. So. Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (34:38.478)
Thanks.

Tony Benjamin (34:44.906)
Yeah. That's cool. That's really cool.

Steve-o (34:49.422)
Especially when you're in that mode where like when I'm in when I'm ready to take the test I just want to take the test right I don't want to have some type of delay or okay now I got to deal with this because then it flusters my mind and just you know all the things right so I could totally get that from

Rachel Child (34:55.391)
Yeah!

Rachel Child (35:04.181)
And I remember what it was like to be a student, right? Like I want to be, I want this to be useful for them. And I'm more interested in the long-term learning than like the punitive points, right? Like it's what it's more about to me.

Steve-o (35:07.043)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (35:10.606)
Yeah.

Steve-o (35:16.419)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (35:18.823)
I wish more of my professors had been like that. They were more interested in just zapping you.

Rachel Child (35:22.397)
You know, though AI can do a lot of what we do now, right? And so if I'm going to give my students anything useful, it's going to have to come from me being genuine and a place of, of access to resources they can't find through chat GPT, right? And so I feel like that's part of like my value proposition.

Tony Benjamin (35:50.777)
Right.

Rachel Child (35:51.347)
outside of, know, why can't I just clone myself with AI and have it do my lectures or whatever else? Back to textbooks, though, I would say, like, textbooks are going online for the most part. A lot of them. There are physical textbooks. The challenge I have with that is, is in a dynamic changing field, I, for instance, in geology, we're not changing geological law.

Tony Benjamin (35:57.597)
Right. Yeah.

Steve-o (36:03.693)
Yeah.

Rachel Child (36:17.183)
right, where HR law in the past year has changed, it's mutated, right? And so I feel like in that respect, you've got to be a little bit malleable. And for me, I've just used the Shurm Student Chapter membership as my textbook because they have current resources and all of that. I've reconsidered a few times, I've faced a few challenges with

Steve-o (36:21.428)
Multiple times, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (36:26.557)
That's cool.

Rachel Child (36:45.203)
students logging in and things like that and wondering if this is still what I want to do. I still feel like the access it's going to give my students to a realistic preview of what human resources might offer is going to be there. So.

Tony Benjamin (36:58.942)
You know, that's a critical point that you raise there, a realistic view of it, right? Something that's real. Do you feel like do you feel like what is the gap between and maybe we talked about this before, but what is the gap about when you come out of school? Because you've heard you Stacey Peterson's episode and she's talking about this a little bit in her experiences, right? What are the what's the gap between?

getting a degree in HR in school and coming out in the real world. Is there a gap?

Rachel Child (37:31.211)
Yeah, there is. And that's one of the things I tried to resolve when I started teaching Intro to HR was I want you to understand like theory, but I also want you to understand a little bit of practice and how to marry the two. Because when somebody teaches you, you know, that FMLA, you have to be there, work 1500 hours and be there for 12 months and blah, blah, blah. But when you first see that FMLA form,

Steve-o (37:51.982)
You You

Rachel Child (38:00.527)
and you have to mark how you're going to measure the leave, and everyone chooses January to December, you know? And spoiler alert, that's not helpful for your organization. Then I feel like I want my students to not see that for the first time and not know what to do, right? And so we, in my class, actually...

Tony Benjamin (38:07.28)
Right, right.

Steve-o (38:12.482)
Mm-mm. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (38:22.257)
Yeah.

Rachel Child (38:26.335)
take an employee through the employee lifecycle, but we start with like job descriptions and analyses. We benchmark salaries. We, you know, like we talk about what is benchmarking, why it's useful, and then, okay, tell me what you're going to pay a person for this position and give me two benchmark sources of that, right? And then, you know, we exactly so yes, yes, right. And so we need to connect like our actions. And then they, my students don't love this.

Steve-o (38:45.41)
Yeah, like why back it up, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (38:49.949)
Right.

Rachel Child (38:55.979)
I make them connect everything they do to the mission and values of their organization, which both of you know, because I've had you talk about it in my class. And it's a mind bender, I think it's a habit that's hard to, to establish. And it's clunky at first. And most of my students sort of imagine values just to be like, good virtues, not your organization's stated purpose. And so they're like, well, you know, they say their values are like,

Tony Benjamin (39:18.717)
Right.

Rachel Child (39:25.619)
respect, safety, and customer service. And then they're like, this aligns with our value of honesty. Okay, so which of your values do you consider honesty connects with, right? And so we have to do a lot of going back and connecting that because I feel like if you're anchored in your values as an organization, it really helps everything go more smoothly. And I want my students to come out of college

with that knowledge, right? And I want, they're going to go into organizations where it doesn't look pretty, but at least they know that it will look better if they connect with their values, right? Anyway, so.

Tony Benjamin (40:07.725)
No, that's no, that's that's a brilliant thing. And going back to what we were talking about earlier, right? A lot of those organizations don't

They may have something on a plaque on the wall, but they don't necessarily know what their values are or they don't embody anything. They're just there being business. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And and it's hard, especially for for someone coming into the practice to say to say, hey, you know, if we did this, this would really mean a lot to people and, know, and helping people redefine. But it's it's hard to do that when you're at that level and saying that to people. Right.

Steve-o (40:22.874)
And that's the problem, yeah. Yep.

Rachel Child (40:43.295)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (40:44.089)
Now here's a twist on that question just asking this. So again, I hear lots about burnout and we talked about that a little bit ago and those things like that. Do you think there's a connection between the way we teach HR to people entering the profession and then they get into the real world and they, I don't know, they get slapped in the face for lack of a better phrase, right? And do you think that contributes to that burnout? Like they have these high expectations or they really are

in it because they like people per se and then and they get slapped around a little bit and then they're burned out by that. Do you think that contributes?

Rachel Child (41:15.254)
Right.

Rachel Child (41:22.855)
Yes. I think it kind of goes back to realistic job preview, right? Because some organizations wring their HR people out like an old rag, right, and take every ounce of, of, you know, juice from them. And then other people, like, allow their HR people to flourish. And that was my experience in my first organization. I went to the employee orientation, and it was all values and all, you know, this is the way we do things. And you have,

Tony Benjamin (41:24.957)
Yeah.

Steve-o (41:43.352)
Yeah.

Rachel Child (41:51.891)
space to be with your family. And I was like, yes, right? Like, this is the organization I want to be with. then I had a baby boomer leader who was, no, you work down to a 10-hour day. it was a very, so the microculture of the support staff was significantly different than the culture of the sales staff. And I think that happens actually in a lot of organizations.

because for some reason we want to whittle down our overhead, which you should do, right? We don't hire non-essential people. But if you get to the point where the support staff are being burnt out because you are saying, we don't need an additional HR person, but we can take as many headcount on the sales side as we want, right? You need to maybe rebalance that budget and say, OK, is

the mental health of our support staff, our HR staff, is it good? And if the answer is no, then seeing if you're able to reallocate resources, right? I often say to my students, you know, the best thing an organization can do for their people is stay in business. You cannot pay anyone if you don't turn revenue. And so you have to, but if you base the almighty dollar as your

Tony Benjamin (42:58.973)
Right.

Rachel Child (43:19.019)
as the bait than any other values go out the window. And so you need to reorganize it, right? If you truly can't afford another HR person, that makes sense, but you're not going to get longevity. You're not going to get great culture. You're not going to get those things because you're burning people out. And I think maybe it goes back to what we think our HR people are there for us to do, right? And if we treat them similarly to the way we treat the rest of the workforce.

Tony Benjamin (43:41.437)
Fantastic. That's a fantastic answer, Rachel.

Steve-o (43:51.598)
That's what he likes to say. You know, and what you say, Rachel, is also critical, I think, in a lot of departments. You know, we talk about KPIs and what we're measuring. If the measuring doesn't help actually mold behavior in a positive way, because that's really the ultimate goal is to help mold the behavior, the behavior should reflect the values, right? And so that, you know, I was just at your class recently, what, maybe a month ago, maybe less than that.

And I loved those questions about the core values because not only did it allow me to go back to my old company and the values that we held, but it's really easy to apply those values in your work environment. And when you see them in others, it makes you want to live those values. It makes you excited when you see others, hey, they're living it. I should be living it. There's just this synergy that goes with that. That's why I think values are so critical. And

You know, I tell people all the time if you're writing a job ad, your core values should be also part of your job ad. In fact, that's the tone of your job at it. For those that use AI and are always looking for a tone to be able to develop a good job ad, that's it. Your core values is your tone. And so if you are struggling on how to do that, that's you may not have very solid core values or solid foundation. And that's where it becomes really critical. So and like I said, it starts right at beginning, right from the job ad.

and the people you're attracting to the organization, that's how critical core values are, period.

Rachel Child (45:25.181)
completely agree. I've been asked with the Department of Online and Continuing Education with Weber State to talk about onboarding with, with some companies, right. And I've been working with a colleague, Ruby Munoz, shout out. We have discussed that, you know, well, one, orientation and onboarding are different. But two, like the employee experience starts long before they walk through the door to

Steve-o (45:48.557)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (45:51.98)
Yeah.

Rachel Child (45:52.671)
to be onboarded. And so we came up with a few, we call them our 3Cs, Culture, Compliance and Coaching, right? For a good onboarding process, you need all three. But we start with Culture, and you start with your values, and you start with your mission, and you build it there first. And then of course you need Compliance, right? But I think a lot of people leave with Compliance, and then try to put a, yeah, and then they try to put a Culture sticker on it.

Tony Benjamin (46:14.442)
Yep, yep.

Steve-o (46:15.68)
especially at that stage, at the onboarding stage.

Rachel Child (46:22.379)
And then like, anyway, and so I lead with culture, right? And instead of, then like, you've got to build it into the building, not just put the sticker in the window. So.

Steve-o (46:22.402)
Yeah, yeah. that's hilarious.

Tony Benjamin (46:24.411)
Yeah.

Steve-o (46:28.024)
Put on the culture sticker.

Steve-o (46:36.181)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (46:37.101)
You know, that's really interesting thing you say, and it makes me think about, like I just did an onboarding for a client this morning, and part of that conversation. So what I do is everybody who comes on, go through the employee handbook together. And that can be very dry, right? I mean, that can just be bad.

And so I try very, very hard for it to be a big joke. meaning I try to have fun with them. We start out by me, you know, saying, Hey, we're going to go through the employee handbook. And then I, and then I tell them, now I want you to understand that I've been doing this long enough to know most employees don't read the stupid handbook. And so, right. Cause you all fall asleep while you're reading it. And so I just want to say, I'm going to walk through it with you today, but if you have trouble sleeping, I would like you to print this and put it on your end table.

five minutes reading this and you're out like a light. So you never have to worry about insomnia again. And we started, we joke around about it and that sort of stuff. And then I make a joke about, okay, because the beginning of the, of the handbook has the, you know, the harassment stuff and discrimination, all that training that I do. And we start there and I tell everybody you're, we're going to get through about three pages of this and you're going to wonder if we're ever going to be done. And my answer to that is,

Don't worry, the longer we go, the faster we'll go. And so I try very hard to start there with a bunch of humor. And I think it lightens the mood. And then I joke around. And I give examples that are kind of funny. And as we try to define what is actual hostile work environment versus what most people say it is, those sorts of things.

I really, really love it because I get a joke around about it. Right. And, know, you know, we talk about quid pro quo and I make the joke, you know, this is the kind of thing that you've heard about all your life or the boss chases the secretary around the desk around around until she finds something heavy enough to knock him out with. And then it ends. And people get a good check, chuckle out of it. It's been too long since I've seen that movie. But yes, I think, yeah.

Steve-o (48:42.034)
Isn't that what happened in nine to five with Dolly Parton? feel like.

Ha ha.

Tony Benjamin (48:51.013)
Anyway, that's I tried to do that. It's a humorous thing and I try to lighten that mood. So anyways, to your point, though, that light hearted friendly sort of thing, I hope comes across in that onboarding, but it doesn't necessarily and just going through the handbook. That's a presentation atmosphere thing. Exactly. Yeah.

Rachel Child (49:07.869)
Yes. Well, and I think, you know, that's necessary, right? But making it horribly boring, also not necessary. And so make finding a way to engage. Tony, I will say in my syllabus, I have my students do like a think pair share. And I'm like, Okay, look through this syllabus, right? This section of the syllabus, what shocks you? What do you, you know, what do you know, and then they end up sharing with the class. And so that might be a way to break up your handbook.

Steve-o (49:16.696)
Very true.

Rachel Child (49:37.119)
do a think pair share with especially the ones that are fun and interesting, like the code of conduct, right? That's like all the ways that you can violate the law of your company. And you know, some of them are there because it's happened before, right? Those are my favorite.

Tony Benjamin (49:45.981)
Right, right. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. And we have we have a bullet point list in the the handbook I do for people who have a bullet point list of the things that will get you fired immediately. And yeah, that's we that's another joke point, right? If you know, if if all this applies to you and you want to get fired really quickly, here's a bullet list of things you can do to get kicked out really quick. So.

Rachel Child (50:14.645)
I've created a list of opportunities for you.

Tony Benjamin (50:16.445)
There you go. I like that line. I may steal that. right. Let's Rachel, let's talk about this idea of two of companies working with with schools and let's talk about internship internships and that sort of thing. Like the value of internships. I know that more and more degrees now require internships. And and so let's talk about the value of those things. Right. Right. Let's talk about the value of those things. Let's talk about the

Steve-o (50:18.004)
A whole list of opportunities.

Steve-o (50:39.95)
especially in business, right?

Tony Benjamin (50:46.289)
You know, how can they do it better? Where are some value points? Let's, let's go there. Let's talk about that.

Rachel Child (50:53.813)
So involved in my curriculum, there is not a requirement for an internship. I think HR internships can be difficult to come by because of the sensitive nature of what you're dealing with. So yes, in accounting, I'm dealing with the company's financials, but I'm not dealing with Jane's cancer or this person harassing that person. And so I feel like it's hard to let just any student into that.

Tony Benjamin (51:13.053)
Yeah, that's a bit that's a bit different. Yeah.

Rachel Child (51:23.347)
I do see organizations, do know BYU and their master's program and their MBA program when they focus on HR, as well as Utah State with their MHR program. They really have incredible relationships with organizations. And I don't know if it's a matter of having that master's level, that higher level focus that makes it feel like you can trust these people with more intense sort of job.

tasks, right? And so I would say in HR, that confidentiality can become a challenge on the HR side, especially with, right, because some of the things in HR that you really only learn by doing are going to be the corrective action and the investigations and all of that. And if you can create an opportunity for, for people to have that, it's great. But

Steve-o (52:08.654)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Child (52:18.943)
having someone who'll be there just for the summer handle your harassment investigation also doesn't jive. And so, yes. So I would.

Tony Benjamin (52:24.477)
Right, right. That could be dangerous. Yeah.

Steve-o (52:29.574)
Well, and nobody wants to like make it up, right? Say, let's make up a harassment claim and then have the intern work on it. What a great idea.

Rachel Child (52:38.123)
Right. And you'd have to do it in a safe way anyway. So I think it becomes challenging. I do, I have, it is done very well in some places. And I think if your organization is large enough to take on an HR intern, I think it's wonderful. You're, you're building the future of HR, right? And please create that opportunity. And I know that there's many schools locally that would love

Steve-o (52:59.97)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Child (53:07.005)
absolutely love to work with you on that. My suggestion for where to start, if that's something that you were interested in doing, would be to contact maybe your local SHRM group and ask them what colleges have active chapters, because then you know you have more active participating students maybe who have a little better understanding of what confidentiality looks like in practice rather than in theory.

So if that's something that you're interested in. And then another thing I want to say is,

I, we have a lot of international students, but people shy away from hiring international interns. And I think a lot of that has to do with I-9s and what on earth do I do there? And so one, international students, if they are here, they generally can qualify for working up to 20 hours per week in a semester. And then you, you pay them normally.

just like anyone else, they are legal and authorized to work in the United States. I have had employers say, well, they're not going to be able to go full time after. And that's not true, actually. Full, or students, international students on breaks can work 40-hour weeks. So in the summer, they can work 40-hour weeks. And then when the semester is starting, they're back to 20. And then they have a full year of work eligibility following.

Tony Benjamin (54:32.381)
Yeah.

Rachel Child (54:35.787)
to do that. And again, employers can say, well, we want them to stay. I understand that. However, how many just out of college students are going to work with you for two years of college and one year after and leave? Right? And especially if that's what your tuition reimbursement states. Exactly. The difference is the perception. I legit think it's the perception. I say, let's.

Steve-o (54:51.245)
I was gonna say that's like the average anyway, right? So what's the difference?

Tony Benjamin (54:59.645)
Rachel Child (55:03.019)
Let's think out of the box. I have so many international students and I had one apply for 50 internships. Five, zero, it was actually 52. And I thought, no, no. you have, and it's, yes, it's hard. And I think, I think coaching people internationally is hard too. Like it, puts the organization in a position of growth and learning.

Steve-o (55:15.917)
Nothing?

Tony Benjamin (55:20.766)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Child (55:32.363)
for an opportunity to do that, to take on them. But you will find very, very loyal and very versatile workers. I mean, they are literally, I mean, how about one of us hop over to another country, learn their language and try to go to school, right? Like, they're super versatile and willing to learn. And if you're willing to take the time and coach them, help them understand culturally where we're at, I think you would have an invaluable asset as well as an invaluable connection that

can go back to their home country and create a relationship that can be leveraged through a lot of opportunities.

Tony Benjamin (56:11.028)
Now that's.

Steve-o (56:11.47)
I love this insight. This is great insight, especially for those organizations who've been thinking about internships. Whenever I'm talking to my clients, I talk to my clients all the time about internships. sometimes they're talking about projects they're working on or things they're doing. was like, that is a good example of an internship. You could create an internship so they can help alleviate what you're trying to accomplish there and give them some actual real work experience that applies to your business in a very powerful way.

Tony Benjamin (56:13.926)
Yeah, me too.

Rachel Child (56:41.289)
Absolutely. would say like what you need your operating procedures redone, right? You need a training program rewritten and a needs analysis done. Those things would be great. Your new job descriptions and analyses. what else? You want to revamp. No, go ahead.

Steve-o (56:41.431)
So.

Steve-o (56:50.317)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (57:00.75)
Even initially, like initially looking at an HCM, like I'm in the HCM world. You know how many internships I've had over there, interns over the years who called us just to gather information, pricing, you know, what does demo look like, what does setup look like, what does the timeframe look like, what do you offer, what do you not offer, like stuff like that. I've had tons of interns over the years gather that information because they are helping initiate the research the company's going to do.

to develop an appropriate RFP to go out there and find a new platform for the organization. That is a completely appropriate thing to have the intern help you with, to gather some of that initial information. And the cool part about it is they learn a ton. They learn a ton doing that because then they learn about features and programs and things that are out there that the salespeople like us are always excited to talk about. And it's easy to say, well, here's what you want to think about. Here's what you want to do. Here's things like that.

Yeah, there are so many ways that you can involve interns.

Tony Benjamin (58:01.553)
But see what you're what you're describing there is a real internship versus I want to hire somebody and they work for me for a certain amount of time at a very low wage and then I hire them right out of school. That that's a farm program. That's not necessarily right. That's your farming talent as opposed to an internship. And those are two different things. Like I worked for a tech company and we used to partner with USU. We would go up every year to their their their job fair.

Rachel Child (58:17.077)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (58:19.074)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (58:31.429)
And I had a relationship with certain professors that I would say, hey, while I'm here at this thing, bring me your best and brightest students and introduce me to them. And I'd pitch the company to them and I'd talk to them about what we do and I'd hand them a little free software and that sort of stuff. So they remembered us and all that. And that's great. And then when we switch, when we started to do an internship, what a lot of them expected is that they would do it during their senior year and then start working for us right afterwards. And I had to say, no, no, no.

When we do internships, do them during your junior break, the summer of your junior year. And we want you to go back and finish. And then we hope that you liked it so much when you get done that you'll consider us. there's a different process there, right? It's a different mentality of those two things and how they interact.

Rachel Child (59:22.141)
Absolutely. And I feel like you're going to get the person who stays longer that way, right? And I think sometimes people call it an internship and that person faxes things. And those are the kind of internships. So I actually approve our HR and Business Admin internships. And those are the kind of ones that I'm like, nope, that I'm, you're noped right out of that. Like, no, you can't.

Tony Benjamin (59:30.599)
Yes. All right.

Tony Benjamin (59:42.717)
Right.

Steve-o (59:47.171)
Right, it's not an internship is not a glorified secretary or office manager and I hate companies that do that. They put it together and then that's what they assume it is. Like, I've got a bunch of office stuff on here. In fact, I got a stack of papers over here. I need you to sort for me. So there we go. I've got an internship. That's not first of all, it's not valuable to the student. In fact, one of my internships that I kind of hated.

Rachel Child (59:51.166)
Yes.

Tony Benjamin (59:56.925)
Yeah.

Rachel Child (59:57.865)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Child (01:00:04.713)
Right?

Steve-o (01:00:12.366)
that I despised was with an accountant. And I thought for sure I'm going to learn books and work and all. Nope. All I was doing was putting the letters together to put into the mail to send out to the clients. And that's it. You know, and I would add the little stickers on the parts where they had to physically sign it. And that was my job. That was my internship. And I hate, I despise it because I learned absolutely nothing. It was so frustrating because

Tony Benjamin (01:00:19.741)
Wow, complicated. Yeah, yeah.

Steve-o (01:00:40.246)
I was excited. was like, OK, I my internship because at BYU they required it. You were required to get an internship. And I let me tell you, I felt so guilty because after that internship, I thought to myself that was not an internship. And luckily they let it slide. I like internally I was dying inside because I thought I am totally being immoral right now because that was not an internship at all. I literally was just as know, like licking the stance. Yeah, I totally felt dishonest and.

Tony Benjamin (01:01:01.485)
Ha ha.

Rachel Child (01:01:05.055)
felt dishonest.

Steve-o (01:01:08.588)
And I know there are students out there that feel that way, that feel dishonest in some of these internships that they have because they truly are gaining nothing from them. And so as employers, it behooves us to really think about, you know, good business minded projects that are actually going to benefit the organization in a powerful way and create an impact. And that's really what an internship should do.

Tony Benjamin (01:01:25.309)
That's awesome. Is there anything else, Rachel, you want to add about that on that subject?

Rachel Child (01:01:33.757)
Yes, absolutely.

Rachel Child (01:01:40.625)
No, I would just say if, if you as an organization feel like it's a possibility, please give it a shot, right? And consider international applicants. They have all of the paperwork that they need to fill out the I-9. They are completely capable and able to work in the U.S. and it's a great opportunity for them. Yes, yes. And absolutely with, with all of the uncertainty there. And I think some companies, right, just the, like I can't...

Tony Benjamin (01:01:54.877)
Especially right now.

Steve-o (01:01:57.13)
and legal, which is huge, right?

Mm-hmm.

Rachel Child (01:02:09.213)
It's too scary, right? And so take a minute, deep breath, try it, see, because I think it can work out very well.

Steve-o (01:02:15.246)
So Rachel, do you ever find companies that reach out to you and ask you, can I create an internship? Like what are some steps that I can take to develop something that's valuable to the students? As I think about it, I don't know of any college that has a program like that or a mentor, if you will, that could help the organization create an internship. I'm just curious if you know of any resources out there like

Rachel Child (01:02:39.837)
You know what, I don't, but I would totally be happy to talk to anybody. Right? So, you know, look me up on Weber State's website or email Tony and Steve and they'll give you my information because I would be happy to sit down. And the things I look for when again, it's, you learning things that are related to your major? Right? Are you learning things that maybe an exempt level, right? A professional or administrative exemption level person is going to be doing.

Steve-o (01:02:49.026)
That's great.

Steve-o (01:02:58.242)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Child (01:03:08.143)
And if the answer is yes, then I'm going to be like, OK, yes, this is an internship, not a stamp, stampternship. That's what we'll call them. That's factternship, right? Like, not those like, anyway, so those are the things I look for. And I would be happy to help anyone, right? And really, a lot of it involves just bringing the individual in and letting them learn.

Tony Benjamin (01:03:19.075)
I like a stamp turn ship.

Steve-o (01:03:25.164)
No, I love that. I love that.

Rachel Child (01:03:36.255)
There's a company out there, ooh, I forget what they're called. I think their initials are CTE. They're an electrical distributor. But one of my students did an internship with them, and they have a phenomenal internship program. And they put those people in each area of the organization. And I love that. I wish I would have had access to that kind of internship, right? Because I think I would have been able to see how much I love business or how much I love the warehousing atmosphere and all of that because they set them, they go, they take them to, they do, you know,

Tony Benjamin (01:03:54.348)
Yeah.

Steve-o (01:04:02.978)
Yeah.

Rachel Child (01:04:05.835)
the warehouse, they do sales, they do accounting, they do customer service, they work the counter, but not only do they work the counter, they learn the inventory system and it's this 12 week planned out phenomenal internship opportunity. And I'm like, that is exactly right. That is a great opportunity, especially for general business students who didn't quite know which aspect of the business was interesting to them, right? Anyway, so.

Tony Benjamin (01:04:30.272)
No, I love that. I love that. Thank you. That's a way.

Steve-o (01:04:32.364)
I would venture to guess too that there are more professors like you out there that would also be willing to talk to employers.

Rachel Child (01:04:40.115)
I absolutely believe that that to be true, especially in our state and especially with the advisors that I work with, or they'd be able to point you to who to talk to. But I would be happy to craft that and even say to some of them, would you be willing to let this person sit in on those calls? Would you be willing to take this person to the job site while you check on the timelines on the project? Anything like that. Allow them an opportunity.

Steve-o (01:04:43.662)
Sorry, Tony.

Tony Benjamin (01:04:45.224)
Now you're

Steve-o (01:04:48.64)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Steve-o (01:05:03.64)
Yeah.

Rachel Child (01:05:07.709)
and to share their ideas or what did you notice, right? Because I think sometimes we forget that fresh eyes sometimes are the best because they're going to see things that we don't, right? And so just.

Steve-o (01:05:10.626)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (01:05:17.89)
And they see it so differently too, right? Because it's not only the fresh eye idea, but it's also the younger generation eyes. And as I get older, I can't see six inches in front of me anymore. And so I know there's a difference in our eyes.

Rachel Child (01:05:26.249)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:05:32.093)
that's stung, Steve. Thank you. I really appreciate that. That that just hurt. Wow. OK, I'm going to go blind reading our next segment here. Holy cow. See, there we go. I'm to put these on right now just to see. Steve said that. OK, I want to do I want to do something we've never done before.

Steve-o (01:05:36.639)
Ha

I'm getting old, what do do?

Steve-o (01:05:49.516)
he's trying to read.

Tony Benjamin (01:05:56.573)
And I will I will do this at a fairly rapid pace or whatever. We've never quite tried this before. Yeah, it is something we've never quite tried before. We're going to do a little bit of a case study. That's right. That's right. Why don't she's tough? She's tough. She's got it.

Steve-o (01:06:01.25)
Like ever?

Steve-o (01:06:06.958)
And of course, Rachel's the guinea pig.

Rachel Child (01:06:12.23)
Well, I'm telling people, know, stretch, be challenged. You guys are like, congratulations, Rachel. We have an opportunity for you.

Tony Benjamin (01:06:15.357)
Ta-da. Surprise. But yeah, anyways, OK, so we're going to try this out. If this works well, maybe we'll do this some more with different guests. So here is a case study that we kind of wanted to throw out. And let's just talk about how this works. yes, yes, it's a smaller case study, right?

Steve-o (01:06:24.278)
Nice.

Steve-o (01:06:38.572)
It's a Twitter sized case study, just so you know. We're not talking like 10 pages, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:06:44.453)
No, no, right, right, right. So, but this is, this is a smaller thing and I think this is, this is a realistic, this is based upon a true event. And so I want to, I want to throw this out there and then we'll, we'll kind of hit this up and let's talk about it. Okay. So the case is you're a small company of somewhere between 40 to 50 employees. It's a white collar environment with one single location. You interview a candidate for a senior marketing position.

They're not an executive level, but they're senior and you decide to hire them. You hire a man in his late forties. When this person shows up their first day, they're dressed as a woman and asked to be called by a different name. The before the end of the first day, everyone who interviewed the candidate is coming to you as the HR person. And they say they feel deceived. The person is acting completely different than how they presented themselves in interviews.

and they can't work with this person going forward because they feel betrayed. Before the end of the first day, this person has already mentioned concerns with the bathroom, which bathroom they're going to use, and other factors of possible discrimination. So I'm throwing this out there and let's talk about this. What do you do? What's the best answer here? And I think we can talk about this legally, how you comply legally and also.

Steve-o (01:07:47.534)
.

Steve-o (01:08:07.886)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (01:08:09.821)
We're going to base this on the laws of the state of Utah, but how do you comply legally and the same token? How do you culturally handle this? Cause I don't know that those two things are necessarily the same here. Go ahead, Rachel. Let's, let's hit you up. If you want to start, we can make Steve start if you want.

Steve-o (01:08:23.054)
Dun dun dun!

Rachel Child (01:08:25.963)
Well, what crossed my mind as you were reading is, is right, the three C's. So I asked the organization, all right, let's talk about your values here. And what do your values suggest would be the best course of action? Right. I think one of the biggest issues is going to be trust and, the falsification of, of image, right.

But I also understand there's such a hugely charged, it's a political thing, it's a legal thing, right, around gender issues. And so you've got that component. And so I would probably start with a conversation with the person. That's probably step one, right? Let's talk about this, you know, and start that way. And then

based on that information, right? Because I think it would be silly to ignore that trans people, they've got a lot of hard stuff happening for them in their life, right? And so I think starting with compassion, right? Starting with compassion, starting with your values and bringing them in. And then if they're going to stay working there, and that can be on them or on the company,

Tony Benjamin (01:09:32.537)
Yep. Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (01:09:33.42)
Yeah.

Rachel Child (01:09:50.399)
the company's gonna have a lot of red flags, right, automatically. But if they're gonna stay working there, how can we make it a positive work environment for all involved? I think that matters too, you know? Not only for the candidate, it can't be comfortable for them. And it's certainly not comfortable for the five-person panel interview who are like, wait a minute, you know, this isn't what we expected, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:10:07.453)
Right, right. Yeah. Thought Steve.

Steve-o (01:10:09.294)
Wait a minute. What just happened?

Steve-o (01:10:16.958)
you know, I first think about some of the legal implications here because I've actually had a situation very similar to this happen. And, and this person turned out to be a phenomenal worker. And, and so here's, here's the first thing. Okay. Your employees feel deceived. They, they, probably need to educate. So we probably need to talk about how.

know, gender presentation, I don't think is required to disclose in interviews. And so there was no obligation for this person to disclose that if they didn't want to. There's no legal obligation because I deal with the hiring side quite a bit. So I'm very familiar with this world, right? There's no reason for them to disclose any type of thing. Being deceived, unfortunately, is not a lawful basis for termination. So it's not like you can just use it as a reason for, in this case, what would be adverse action and

suddenly go through that stuff. So don't terminate. There's really not any need to discipline. They haven't even done anything in the organization yet. We probably, I don't really want to validate the statements that we feel deceived because...

I don't know. I just feel like there's some issues there just to validate that You need to talk about it and address it and say hey look, there's no legal disclosure options here So have we are we even gonna give him a chance like like I said, there's bias that has crept in right here and And right away people are gonna be judgmental and you may not even give that person The opportunity that they're seeking which is probably why they chose not to disclose it to begin with because they were afraid of that to begin with right?

So there's a lot of protected characteristics here under the federal law and things like that. So I would focus on, maybe we could meet privately with the employee and voice some of the concerns, but use it as a tool to say, we, maybe can we confirm your preferred pronouns? Cause I know that's a big deal for people in that world. So we probably need to find out about what some of their preferred pronouns are and help maybe educate internally with the company what that is.

Tony Benjamin (01:12:32.329)
Yeah. Hey.

Steve-o (01:12:32.782)
ask how they want to handle internal communication and such like that. Like you said, the restroom, if there's support that they need, what would help them feel supportive in that sense? And then clarify the performance expectations. Look, you were hired to do a job. These are the performance expectations for the job. That remains the same for all employees, regardless of what you're coming in here and now presenting yourself as.

Does that make sense? And so we want to have a respectful workplace for everyone, but we also understand the need to help you feel comfortable, successful, et cetera. And we need this role completed. Like there are things that we need to have happen and be done. Anyway, that's a really hard situation. Like I said, I've been in that situation and that's kind of what I just described is in essence what we did. Because...

they didn't disclose that right away. And then suddenly everything changed when they started. you know, at first it almost felt like they were trying to do it out of spite or to prove a point, almost as if they wanted to get fired. And that's not what happened. And so it's just kind of interesting to see how that evolved over time. Because like I said, to me, they have been a phenomenal worker.

in every sense of the word. And I don't know where they're at now, but at the time they stepped it up and they did the job. They did a great job. And we allowed them that opportunity to do so without letting all the biases and federal stuff you got to be careful of anyway. So anyway, sticky situation, but that's probably how I would react a little.

Tony Benjamin (01:14:15.219)
I gotta, I, thank you. That's very sweet in some ways, Steve. That was very nice.

Steve-o (01:14:20.366)
I only know all that because like I said, we actually dealt with the situation. That's just how we did it. And like I said, this was years ago, but still, you know.

Tony Benjamin (01:14:28.795)
Yeah, yeah. And, know, in the the state of Utah, you know, gender identity is a protected class. So you got to be really careful with that. And yeah, and I guess my thought here is that I can't say because you're trans, you're fired, right? You can't do that. That's again, it's a protected class in the city, Utah. So the flip side of that, however, though, is that obviously.

Steve-o (01:14:36.899)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (01:14:56.473)
Let's say that I come in and I present myself as a fantastic marketer and I really don't know anything about it. Right. And I, and somehow I fool everybody and I get them in there and then, and then they notice all on the first day, wow, Tony's deceptive or that I don't really have a degree in marketing. My degree is in poli sci or whatever it happens to be. that there's a, you know, there's, there's a deceptive piece to that. Of course people are going to be upset.

Of course, they're not going to write whatever you deceive people about to get a job. We've all interviewed those people who are incredible interviews. And then you bring them on and you're like, who are you? And I think I think there's some reality to that sort of stuff. On the other hand, I perfectly understand why someone who's transgender would feel threatened applying in a position because there's real discrimination out there and people, you know, worried about all the aspects of that and what it means.

Steve-o (01:15:41.286)
Well,

Tony Benjamin (01:15:54.161)
Just like you were saying earlier, Rachel, some people are so worried about the compliance aspect that they just shy away from certain things because they're afraid of the need to comply and how complicated that can be. So I want to acknowledge all that.

Steve-o (01:16:04.886)
Well, and think that's why you have to separate the two, right? There's a difference between the gender presentation and what they did there and actual job-related misrepresentation. That's why I think it's important to sit down with the employee and just make sure that did you represent your experience and qualifications in a way that was not deceptive? Because if there is deception there, that's a problem.

Tony Benjamin (01:16:15.367)
Yeah, yep.

Steve-o (01:16:31.074)
But if the only deception, if you will, was just based on the fact that they did not reveal their identification from a gender perspective and how they represent themselves, that's just not, that's not material or grounds for any type of termination. And so we have to work with it. And again, if eventually there presents some type of legitimate performance concern, well, then let's document that and manage it throughout the process like we normally do. That's the thing here.

Tony Benjamin (01:16:47.665)
Right.

Steve-o (01:17:00.556)
You have to just treat it like you would normally treat anybody period. So.

Tony Benjamin (01:17:05.653)
Right, right. So here's the thought, though. Let's say, in this scenario, as I read it there, they come in and they act very different on day one than they did in the interviews. And it's not just how they dressed or anything like that, but their personality seems different, right?

Rachel Child (01:17:05.834)
Right?

Steve-o (01:17:19.854)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (01:17:20.493)
I can understand why then you start wondering about, I hire the right fit? And look, this is why we interview, right? This is why Tracy Kalmar and her fantastic episode on interviewing and all that is so important, right? Right, right. And getting into those things. But if someone's there and they're manipulating that and they are a completely different person than who you thought you were hiring. And look, we all put our best foot forward. That's, you know, that's a different maybe degree, but the point is, is

Steve-o (01:17:30.786)
Yeah, talk about interview behavioral questions. Yep.

Tony Benjamin (01:17:48.411)
Yes, people can deceive and then get in there. I think number one, you deal with the bathroom issue as it comes up. Don't put my foot in that compliance trap until I have to. Number two, I think it's fair to talk to the person and say, hey, look, I want to make this work and we want to do this all right. You know, let's let's just acknowledge that how you presented yourself in those interviews isn't what I see right now.

And so there's legitimate concerns about that. And you would do the same as if you found out somebody lied about having a bachelor's degree on the resume per se. You know what mean? It's a little different, but it's a similar situation in that process. How do we restore trust? Go ahead.

Rachel Child (01:18:32.681)
I think this, yes, so sorry. I think this could also call into question, right? Companies that clandestinely look at social media and would they have made a different decision had they known that, right? I think, and it can call into question the opportunities for discrimination when looking at social media, right? And anyway.

Tony Benjamin (01:18:49.663)
Yeah. Yeah.

Steve-o (01:18:54.14)
Correct.

Rachel Child (01:19:00.971)
as part of your hiring process. Anyway, that popped into my mind.

Tony Benjamin (01:19:06.089)
No, no, you're exactly right. And Steve, we talked about this when it comes to the profile scraping, right? That's exactly the whole AI thing where they're profile scraping. Yeah, yeah. Anyways, yeah, it's all out there. Just to tack onto this, yeah.

Steve-o (01:19:14.412)
Yeah. Because you have to give them the opportunity, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Steve-o (01:19:23.982)
So to our listeners, I would love to hear your opinions on the matter. For those of you who are listening and you've now heard this, you you've heard our comments and you can agree or disagree or maybe correct us or enlighten us with your knowledge and expertise. Like I said, I've actually dealt with this issue before. And so a lot of my experience is based off of what I actually went through with this. And it actually turned out really good.

Tony Benjamin (01:19:28.987)
Right? How do you go about it?

Steve-o (01:19:53.536)
It was great. Like I said, they were a great worker and it's been years now and I don't know what has ever come of that since then. I think they went off and started working with another firm or something like that. But anyway, was one of those things where it was a good learning experience, right? Because we could have thrown up our arms and started calling all kinds of things and let managers win who want them fired right away.

And we just have to, in HR, we have to defend the company, but also the protected classes and things like that. mean, there's a lot to think about here for sure.

Rachel Child (01:20:28.299)
So.

Rachel Child (01:20:32.073)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:20:32.475)
Yeah, no, and I think and to say there are two P there. I really believe there are two components here. There is a legal compliance component, right? Discrimination and that sort of stuff and you want to protect that. And on the flip side, there is a cultural piece to this too. This will hurt your culture. It will cause a riff amongst people. There will be some issues and you're going to have to be compliant at the same time that you're addressing those cultural issues. And what you said, Rachel, about talking to him and just.

Steve-o (01:20:51.374)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (01:21:01.049)
hey, this is the reality of where we're at. Doesn't mean you're fired or anything else. It just means that because it feels a little deceptive to some people or whatever within the group, we're going to have to work on building that trust. How can we do it? So, yeah. Yeah, OK. Well, there you go. See, that was a very touchy subject and we were able to handle it very well.

Rachel Child (01:21:15.787)
Okay.

Steve-o (01:21:15.81)
Yeah, I love that.

Steve-o (01:21:23.949)
Ha

Tony Benjamin (01:21:25.431)
So, you know, to tack on one thing onto the end of this, I have a friend and he's out looking for work and he recently got an email. This is the absolute truth where they told him, no, he did not get the job. And then they told him a reason. And the reason they told him is because we don't feel you fit in with our youthful culture. I said, right, right. And I just thought, I can't believe you said that like.

Rachel Child (01:21:49.523)
no.

Steve-o (01:21:49.634)
That was smart.

Tony Benjamin (01:21:55.326)
I know what you're. yes. Yes. Yes. And I just I and well, I said to him, I says, I happen to know a good law firm that would take this for you to go after this. And he was like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. And he said in his answer was, no, I don't want to chase him, but I think I'll put it on Glassdoor so everyone knows. It's like good for you. Yeah. Right. So.

Steve-o (01:21:55.712)
Is he over 40? Wonderful. Well, now you got a case.

Rachel Child (01:21:58.709)
Well...

Steve-o (01:22:06.634)
Absolutely. Especially when they put it in writing like that. It's like golden.

Steve-o (01:22:19.945)
wonderful.

Rachel Child (01:22:21.355)
That's fair.

Steve-o (01:22:23.81)
Well, and not only that, but you have people today, especially younger generation, they'll put it on Reddit, they'll put it on Snapchat. I'm telling you, today people have no qualms just blasting it out there. And I think as organizations, you really have to think about stuff like that because people are going to talk.

Tony Benjamin (01:22:32.145)
Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Child (01:22:43.935)
maybe they were comfortable enough that he wasn't youthful enough that those wouldn't be an issue.

Tony Benjamin (01:22:44.541)
Yeah, yeah

Steve-o (01:22:48.831)
Maybe, yeah, perhaps. I don't know.

Rachel Child (01:22:51.499)
He's like, they're like, we're not worried about that. You're not gonna put this on Instagram.

Tony Benjamin (01:22:54.173)
Yeah. Yes.

Steve-o (01:22:57.23)
So Tony, I want you to create a class and I want you to educate people like that on how to use Snapchat, how to use Twitter, how to use Reddit. So you go ahead and do that, set it up.

Tony Benjamin (01:23:03.389)
Yeah, yeah. Mm Yeah, because I'm the I'm the Mr. Instagram guy. That's right. That's yeah. So awesome at that. Right. That's that's exactly right. Well, I just want to say this has been good. Like, I think we've had a fantastic, a fantastic and by the way, Rachel, I hope you don't mind me.

Steve-o (01:23:09.886)
Absolutely, the master, the master of it all, so.

Tony Benjamin (01:23:27.869)
So that was so good of you to point it out to me. Thank you. I appreciate it. It was hilarious. I'm having fun with it. Right, right.

Rachel Child (01:23:29.055)
I love it.

You

Steve-o (01:23:32.696)
that you say fantastic at least 10 times an episode?

Rachel Child (01:23:35.721)
I will say I was a little affronted when you said, I told you that you say fantastic too much because that is not true. What I said was fantastic should be added to the drinking game. But I actually, I feel like it's a great adjective. really have no qualms against it, but I felt, I felt like I was misrepresented. I actually did for listeners call for a redaction in whatever, in podcast form, whatever that is.

Tony Benjamin (01:23:47.421)
Okay, fair enough. Fair enough.

Steve-o (01:23:47.81)
Hahaha!

Rachel Child (01:24:05.289)
But now I guess I'm getting my moment. Yes, I did not say you say it too much.

Tony Benjamin (01:24:05.915)
Here it is. That's right.

Steve-o (01:24:08.504)
This is it. Is there anything else you would like to inform Tony about at this moment? Because now is your time. Now is your chance.

Tony Benjamin (01:24:14.669)
Hahaha

Rachel Child (01:24:15.709)
Now that if we're recording, now's my chance. I did want to tell you guys before we close that I do have a couple of HR nicknames and the one I remember the most was rehab. We had someone who had an addiction of some sort. I'm not sure that we remember what it was, but every time we talked about it, we had to, it was right around the time Amy Winehouse is a song rehab came out. And so we would, you know,

Tony Benjamin (01:24:19.101)
That's right.

Tony Benjamin (01:24:23.057)
Mm-hmm. good.

Steve-o (01:24:32.385)
story time, here we go.

Rachel Child (01:24:45.355)
sing it to each other and be like, no, no, no. Then sing it as we walked by. It was a good time. So that was, it was back when I had just started Human Resources. And so I had to differentiate for my mentor as I talked through the write-ups and everything to make sure I'd done them right. I had to differentiate the stories. And she's like, remind me which story this is. I'm like, and then we'd sing it. I'm trying to get me go to rehab. Anyway.

Tony Benjamin (01:24:48.497)
Yeah.

Steve-o (01:24:50.061)
So fun.

Tony Benjamin (01:25:05.341)
You

Steve-o (01:25:06.914)
The rehab story.

Tony Benjamin (01:25:09.693)
You

Rachel Child (01:25:11.349)
So rehab was one of our, that's the HR nickname I remember the most.

Steve-o (01:25:15.724)
And did they ever go to rehab or did they just keep saying no, no, no.

Tony Benjamin (01:25:15.826)
Wow.

Rachel Child (01:25:19.211)
I think we started saying no, no, no to them and they got terminated. So they were terminated. Yeah.

Steve-o (01:25:22.254)
Nice, nice.

Tony Benjamin (01:25:26.292)
That's that's awesome. I always I always think that that if you're if you were really astute and you knew what you were doing, that is one of the easiest ADA claims to manipulate is because you're like, I'm going to rehab. I'm going to treatment. I'm yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, no, that's that's that's hilarious. That's it. Thank you. That's that's an awesome story right there. That's that's that's really good. I want to

Rachel Child (01:25:43.252)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (01:25:50.337)
It is.

Tony Benjamin (01:25:53.615)
Okay, Rachel, is there anything else you want to promote or tell us about?

Rachel Child (01:25:57.963)
Slightly. I know I said that the last thing would be the last one, but I lied. So I was listening to your podcast a long time ago. It was back when Xavier was on it about the disconnect between veterans and hiring. And it kind of got my mind rolling. And so I ended up emailing Scott, who volunteered at the work elevated. And I was like, would you be willing to have a conversation with me about this?

Tony Benjamin (01:26:06.973)
Here we go.

Tony Benjamin (01:26:21.764)
huh.

Rachel Child (01:26:25.331)
And so from that, I've spoken to him, I've spoken to Xavier, and I've spoken to a couple of people at Weber State who've done both the private sector work as well as military work. what I'm trying to do is create something that I can, and it's sort of evolving. It doesn't have to be this, but sort of like the myths of hiring veterans. And I wanted to share it with like the local sherm chapters. So create, you know, in one hour professional development session.

about that. And I've had several interviews. I've been talking to former people who work with the Skills Bridge, which is the military sort of internship program. And so anyway, if there are any veterans who would like to speak to me about that, I would love an opportunity to bend your ear and hear more about how you think I can help bridge that gap. My hope is I think sometimes we hear it all from the veteran side.

Tony Benjamin (01:26:56.573)
Yep. you

Rachel Child (01:27:25.087)
And I don't think we hear it from the employer side enough. Again, back to, know, let's open our doors a little bit wider to be more willing to do this. Because I think that, like Xavier said, we are missing an opportunity to hire really, really well-qualified and fantastic people. Fantastic.

Steve-o (01:27:32.706)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (01:27:47.31)
Fantastic people. That's right.

Steve-o (01:27:49.933)
Ha ha.

Rachel Child (01:27:50.783)
Completely, I truly believe that. so anyway, that sort of started as an interview process. I'm just taking notes and drinking it all in and talking to people about what do they think the disconnect is, and then maybe building educational material around it for the HR employer hiring manager side to help create opportunities for veterans to get into the civilian workforce in a place where they feel that they can contribute and

Steve-o (01:28:09.661)
Yeah.

Rachel Child (01:28:19.519)
do really well and to have companies realize that, you know, if we reconsider this or are willing, right, because there's also like a culture, military culture, if we're willing to work with them and help them understand your culture and thrive in your culture, you can get some really, really fantastic employees. Anyway, so if there's anyone again, you can look me up on Weaver's website, you can email Tony and Steve and

Tony Benjamin (01:28:45.117)
Yeah, yeah.

Steve-o (01:28:47.222)
Well, as I say, just reach out to us and we're happy to connect to you. I think that goes on both sides, right? Not only veterans, which it sounds like you've spoken to veterans, but are there any HR professionals listening that have dealt with veterans in the workplace or interviewed and have seen some challenges there?

Rachel Child (01:28:48.927)
I'd be happy to talk to you. I'd love that.

Rachel Child (01:29:04.339)
Yes.

Steve-o (01:29:09.614)
were some of those challenges. Was it with the manager? Was it with the executive team? Was it just your own internal challenges? I think there's absolute value there for sure. And I would say too, Rachel, you may want to consider reaching out to Lisa Duckworth. I know she has worked a lot. Yeah, her and, yeah, it's taken over right now. That's right. That's totally fine.

Rachel Child (01:29:24.055)
yes, she's been on my list. The case competition is taking over my brain for now. When I have a little more bandwidth, I'll get back to my veterans, but yes.

Steve-o (01:29:35.692)
Yeah, and she's an actual veteran. I love your idea though. Let's talk to some HR professionals now who have seen it in their own workplace, in their environment, interviews, et cetera, just to see how they have dealt with it.

Rachel Child (01:29:37.589)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (01:29:46.023)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Child (01:29:48.287)
Well, yes, those who've developed SkillsBridge. The other thought I had, and this is probably way out there, is like, what if I just create like a SkillBridge temp agency and then create a network of employers so we have veterans who can go try out three or four different things, right? And see if, yes, but like an internship with more than one, you know, with more than one stop. Anyway.

Tony Benjamin (01:30:01.853)
You

Steve-o (01:30:04.374)
Almost like an internship.

Steve-o (01:30:11.65)
Yeah, yeah,

Tony Benjamin (01:30:13.509)
Right. Yeah.

Rachel Child (01:30:13.791)
Just how do we help them? Because turnover for the first year following military is actually quite high in the veteran population anyway. So that's something that's crossed my mind. Yes. And I think it's because they don't necessarily understand how their skills connect. And I don't know that there is one source for people to understand like how their skills connect and how we can best utilize their fantastic, you know, skillset. It's true. It's like a...

Steve-o (01:30:22.06)
Really? Interesting.

Tony Benjamin (01:30:25.981)
you

Rachel Child (01:30:42.921)
Like a drug, can't. Thanks for taking a drink, Tony.

Tony Benjamin (01:30:46.449)
It's it's part of the new game now, the fantastic and strategic both. I like that.

Rachel Child (01:30:48.936)
Yeah

Fantastic strategic. Yes. So if there's anyone who have thoughts, please email Tony and Steve. I'd love to continue this conversation with you to sort of maybe explore what's happening there really, right? Yeah.

Steve-o (01:31:05.196)
Yeah, that's great. That's great.

Tony Benjamin (01:31:06.887)
I love it. I love it. And when you get done with all that research, we'll have you back on and we'll talk about it again. I think that sounds awesome. Yeah. I'm I like that.

Steve-o (01:31:12.044)
No, it was fantastically strategic and strategically fantastic. So there you go.

Tony Benjamin (01:31:21.957)
yeah, that dirty soda is coming in handy now. So, all right, well that's great. That was fantastic. Thank you, Rachel. Rachel Child, everyone. look at this. there's a bunch of kids down there with their autograph books. They want you to sign it. They're just so excited. They can't help themselves. There you go. Whoops, there.

Rachel Child (01:31:24.789)
Yeah

Steve-o (01:31:32.152)
Yay!

Hussah! Hussah!

Rachel Child (01:31:43.883)
you

Tony Benjamin (01:31:51.217)
That was a end. Steve must have threatened him or something.

Steve-o (01:31:54.7)
I just said hasa three times and that's the key word.

Tony Benjamin (01:31:58.243)
is better than Beetlejuice three times. So, so all right. All right, we're gonna note this pucks for autism proves that when communities rally families when their hockey tournaments raise local funds that support autism programming inclusion and connection for kids and adults everywhere. Join the team that plays with purpose. Visit pucks for autism.com. That's pucks for autism.com and get involved today.

Rachel Child (01:32:00.509)
I'm sorry.

Steve-o (01:32:00.878)
This is very true.

Tony Benjamin (01:32:28.259)
Shout out to Claire and I think. Yeah, yeah, like. good good.

Steve-o (01:32:30.99)
and I hope the Utah Mammoths do something. It would be really cool. Be really cool because I know she reached out to them and had conversation with them already. So and with the win with the US win with the women's and men's, I think it's a great it's great time for us. So yeah.

Rachel Child (01:32:38.815)
That's awesome.

Tony Benjamin (01:32:42.311)
That's right. Even time to talk about more. Right. Exactly. But Rachel, thank you again for being on here. It is always a pleasure. And I love your sense of humor and all that you bring to the show. And and you really, you know, aside from that, you enlighten us. So, you know, it's it's good. It's it's really good. Yeah. Right. So.

Rachel Child (01:32:59.787)
Happy to be here. It shouldn't be shocking.

Steve-o (01:32:59.822)
That's right. Believe it or not.

haha

Tony's easily shocked, it's okay.

Tony Benjamin (01:33:11.343)
Yeah, well, yeah, sometimes. Yeah. But anyways, I want to thank you for being here. This is this has been really good. And I'd love chatting with you at all all the time. So.

Rachel Child (01:33:22.495)
Sincere thank you to you both. I'm happy to be here, but also all that you are willing to come and share with my classes and everything else. I love bringing a piece of HR in action into HR in theory. so just I so, so appreciate both of you. So thank you for considering me and having me on again. It's always a lot of fun.

Tony Benjamin (01:33:42.603)
that's good. I consider it an honor. Matter of fact, I tell people whenever I go down to your class, I'm like, I say down because I have to drive three hours to get there. But I always say the same thing. I always say I'm going to guest lecture at a Weber at a Weber State class today. And yeah, I bet. right. That's right. That's right. That's. Yeah. Not me, man. I'll take that. That's right.

Steve-o (01:33:43.352)
Absolutely.

Steve-o (01:33:57.806)
So he can sound cool.

Rachel Child (01:34:00.649)
Yes, I love it.

Steve-o (01:34:02.872)
I just tell people I'm gonna go speak to some students. That's how I say it. I gotta be more strategic apparently there, so there we go.

Rachel Child (01:34:05.897)
You

Rachel Child (01:34:11.019)
Ha!

Tony Benjamin (01:34:12.379)
Well, thank you. One more.

Rachel Child (01:34:14.435)
It's appreciated either way. Like, I just love it.

Steve-o (01:34:16.824)
They're fun, I love the students. And there were some really good, thoughtful questions this last time I was there. So you have a really good group right now. I think that's awesome too.

Rachel Child (01:34:28.437)
I agree.

Tony Benjamin (01:34:28.701)
so sweet. All right. Well, I think we're going to go out the same way that we came in. Thank you for listening to today's podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a five star review in iambic pentameter on your favorite podcast app comments or questions for us. Email the podcast at the H.R. Live podcast at gmail.com and we'll talk again soon.