Rivals is BROKEN, Pros are SEETHING and F*CK Devil Dino ft Trqstme & Donatello

In this episode we talk season 10 with world champion Trqstme and rank 1 Gorr Donatello   

What is Clear Comms Podcast?

A Marvel Rivals Podcast hosted by Coach Mills and CaptainCoach, two creator and educators for Marvel Rivals. We discuss all things Rivals including META, balance and the future of development. We will often debate controversial topics that surround the game and plan to bring on many exciting guests from pros to devs!!!

Coach Mills (00:00.779)
What's up, everybody, and welcome to a brand new ClearComps episode. Season ten has been out for a little while now, and we brought on two special guests to talk about their thoughts over season ten and the state of the game of Marvel Rivals. First off, returning guest Donatello, Wolf Menace. You know, how how you doing, man? How how's it going?

Donatello (00:19.564)
I'm doing great. I'm doing great. Thank you for having me again. I've had a lot of fun last time, so I'm happy you guys brought me on again. Thank you guys. Yeah, not sick. Not sick. Recovering, but I'm not sick this time, so I'm chilling.

Coach Mills (00:24.299)
No. Not sick. Not sick this time. Let's go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Nice. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. I saw you've been popping. Congrats, by the way, on all the success of your of your stream. I've been I've been watching. Yeah, dude. Well deserved. Well deserved. And also returning guests, fan favorite, been w requested more than just about any other guest to come back on. Trust me. Thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, no, heavily requested. Every single, every single episode, people say.

CaptainCoach (00:26.926)
The the real rank one gore

Donatello (00:37.72)
Thank you, thank you, I appreciate that a lot. Thank you so much.

TrqstMe (00:48.124)
Really?

Coach Mills (00:53.941)
Yeah, welcome welcome in. We're we we brought the number one expert on Devil Dino. no, I'm just kidding. I'm gonna just kidding. No, no. but no, no, no, yeah. yeah, yeah. best tank player in the world, trust me. How are you doing, man?

CaptainCoach (01:00.528)
That that's that's the intro. tournament winner, MRC champion, former rank one.

TrqstMe (01:11.25)
Yo, what's up? Yeah, I'm I'm doing fine.

Coach Mills (01:12.695)
yeah. I I I want to talk, I want to talk about season 10. like how do you what's your initial thoughts? I know you know I'm I'm curious what were your thoughts about 9.5 and then going into season 10? Like, how do you feel the game has changed? Are you happy with the direction? or are you frustrated? I know you in the previous the last time we had a Dino Meta, I know that you weren't the most pleased. So I'm curious what your thoughts are now.

CaptainCoach (01:15.984)
Ha ha ha.

TrqstMe (01:17.532)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (01:42.965)
Yeah, I think it's it's well known that I dislike Dino character design. I think the character is like one of the worst design characters ever. Like I don't think there's any character that's worse designed than this hero. But overall the the it's definitely better meta than last last meta. Like or last season, right? When we played triple tank, now you play triple support again.

gameplay and now like sometimes you can play like matchups where you play two to two and like they're feeling good and it's it's somewhat fine and the meta is a lot better but it's still not in a direction where I would say it's very good. So

CaptainCoach (02:23.642)
W would you say that's because the value of stacking tanky heroes has kind of diminished because the tankiness of the top tanks has kind of been reduced, therefore that sustain kinda gets less value? Or would you say it's some other reason, maybe like the supports alt charge getting nerfed, so whatever, you now you need more of that padding? What what do you think really you attribute that mostly to?

TrqstMe (02:46.992)
It's not really like anything sustain related necessarily. It's more like the fact that like grabs, especially like from Dino and like burst damage is way more important and like displacing someone away from a healing area is at an all time high. Like that is like a a very valid win condition. You see like Wolf being extremely strong because of that reason. Not because he's like necessarily very strong in the duel, but because he's a very, very high burst on the turn, right? When you like

try to engage and you call a three to one and he has a displacement ability. And it's like with many heroes like that and that's like one way to prevent getting spawn holted by stuff. But yeah overall like in in scrims we still play triple triple of course and it's incredibly hard to break. Like when you play into penny triple triple it's incredibly hard to break. We need full focus from both sides and then it's hard.

Coach Mills (03:41.804)
So that's kind of one of the things I wanted to ask you. I'm curious about your thoughts. Like, is there a meta that you like would prefer? Like would you would you prefer if it's just two two two or we like went to a dive meta or we left triple? Like, do you find some type of I don't know, beauty or fun in like trying to figure out the metas constantly or the triple metas? Or do you want like a specific kind of meta to like dot most dominant? Is there is there a preference there?

TrqstMe (04:09.65)
If it's if it's a question and I I would say I would wanna like keep a lot of questions for later and like d I wanna elaborate on a lot of questions 'cause there's a lot of things to talk about. But coming to your question right now, my favorite meta was a hybrid meta.

where you have like an like a actual off play style with like an Emma in main that structures in main. You have one support that heals the angle, one support that heals the Emma and plays in main. And you have like a like a hit scan DPS that plays angle or main, depending on it. And one dive DPS that fights the enemy diver in the duel. S and like the best example for that

I had like mid season finals where you had like Silock Emma and Captain America being played with it was Luna Loki sometimes and like the Luna would like help on the angle and so on. And yeah, that's like an example for the meta that I liked.

Coach Mills (05:03.713)
Okay, okay. So like it's almost like there's different parts of the composition that are trying to accomplish different game plans at times, instead of everyone just kind of just stacking it to like this big ball of like everyone just does the same thing. Is that what kind of like a way to like simplify it for people that maybe more layman people? Or what what would you say? If yeah.

TrqstMe (05:24.924)
A way to simplify it is to say like I want more dual situations. I think dual situations are the skill expressive moments and I think everyone in the game currently cannot read when something is happening in the game because it's very hard and like you get punished. Like I'll I'll elaborate on this later on, but you get punished by

like making the right read, but someone else in your team can make the wrong read, therefore your read is also wrong or like the the fight structure. Like you can say, okay, now we are are up cooldowns, we can walk forward, but because like the entire core doesn't see that as well

your read doesn't matter. So like when it comes to like a meta where you're more one v one based and you're more like situational and you can like do your own plays on the map and you don't get punished by that for from the rest of the team, the entire archetype and game flow feels a lot better. So like an example again is like last year mid season finals when everything was more of a flowing playstyle and you could like play the map as a as a team and like you can like have all options right. You can deny

You can dive, you have all the options. And now it's mostly like defending, depending on who's the team that has the better conditions on sustain usually has to defend against the enemy team and the other team needs to dive it and it's very hard for the other team usually. But we get to that later.

Coach Mills (06:47.785)
Okay. yeah, I'm definitely gonna ask you some follow ups about that later. But before that, Donnie, I wanna ask your opinion. How did you feel about nine point five and then how did you feel how do you feel about the current season in comparison?

Donatello (07:01.646)
I mean I'm a ranked player, right? I'm a streamer, so I have to play regardless, you know? And nine point five is definitely like I mean the word is probably boring. I mean honestly from from like you know, I'm forced to play the game like every day for a couple hours a day and definitely as it has felt less fun than other seasons. for the fact I mean we all knew it, it like a triple tank meta.

So like people would walk out on like Thing, Mag, Emma being all like super strong with the new team ups, but people like figured out that they were super strong, I guess, in nine point five. 'Cause I feel like season nine with the new team ups, everyone was like having fun playing like whatever just 'cause there was so much new stuff around the corner. And then people in nine point five like, Alright, well we figured out what's good, what's bad. We're playing this because this is just like super OP. And

yeah, I just thought my experience playing ranked was really it was it wasn't like unfun because I still enjoyed the game and like you know, some of my characters specifically like last season were doing pretty good. Like Bucky, Elsa, Wolve were all like pretty good into triple, I guess. So I can't really complain about that 'cause I know some some people that play like other characters were having less fun, but personally I I was able to still like make my way through like the ranked games and everything.

But going on to until into season ten, sorry, feels like a lot better. Even though there's still like like trust me said, there's still things that are like lacking from like the buffs and nerfs and the and the and the patch notes, which we can elaborate later on. But it definitely is better than season nine point five. I think rivals can't fix like everything in one singular like half season.

And I think what they did so far is pretty good for the game. And I really like their approach to just releasing Gore this season, like this whole season, and to try and fix and make the meta and the balance a lot better, hopefully, this season.

Coach Mills (09:12.947)
And ha and you you are you know, the number one ranked gore player at multiple points and you you've been doing extremely well with the character. How how have you felt about gore? Like as a release, from his design, any anything you don't like, anything you really like? give me your thoughts about them.

Donatello (09:29.866)
honestly, f seriously, like Gore has been like a lot of fun. He's a fun character, he's a he's a great addition to the roster. for the fact that he's a team dependent character. And I know a lot of people like complain about that, but the whole point of rivals in my opinion is to play as a team. And like e he's definitely harder to play like in full solo queue where everyone just does their own thing. Like I I don't know, I don't know, like a a Diamond GM player would probably won't have as much fun playing him.

than I am with like like better teammates and like better coordination and like people who actually like want and try their hardest to win like the rank games. But for the game I think he's a good fit. He's not super OP yet unless people start l maybe like finding out things that we haven't found out yet. But I don't think he's like a he's like an Elsa Bloodstone release. Like I don't think he's worth a ban. we've seen him get in ban actually this week in the

R I, if you guys have been watching, I know maybe trust me has. I don't know about you guys, but he he's gotten banned. N RG banned it out from Yeah, we lost.

Coach Mills (10:36.203)
Yeah, I also saw th I also saw fucking Thor being played in Pro Meta. Let's go. We're so there. No, it's gay. but

Donatello (10:40.366)
Yeah, but he's a great addition and he he's fun. I don't know, I I kinda want trust me stake on him 'cause I I'm interested 'cause I play him and I'm I'm I'm a big gore like defender and glazer. That's why I've been like having so much fun watching Yeah We Lost Play over this past weekend. just 'cause they've been playing him and it I it's one of the only teams. I don't know. I I didn't watch really the the Europe teams. I know I know they've played him. I know Necroz like played him a couple games. But

I think he's great. He's super fun. He's he's he's versatile. He's like a a dive brawl ish mix. So I think I think he's a great character, seriously.

Coach Mills (11:18.859)
Yeah, w what are your thoughts, trust me, on on Gore and from your perspective, from like a pro like top level perspective?

TrqstMe (11:27.026)
Well one thing that's for sure is he's not a weak character. Like he does have something that a lot of other characters don't have. He's like a very, very brawl heavy and very very high burst damage, like with AoE. So it's like a a new kind of style. And he also like I he does have a very punish punishable kit. So that makes him refreshing also to play against.

It's not like a frustrating feeling to play against him. So he has ac actually like I do believe he has a balanced spot and I do think you can't buff him or over buff him right now. And I I I do believe in general we should like talk more about nerfs in the game rather than buffs. But like I I do believe he's strong. You can run him in a very high turn based burst comp. Like you see like some comps where in MRI where Dino is banned, MR is banned suddenly, and now you run strange horse.

With Gore duh bubbled in, you run them over with Jeff's support pool, right? And you have like an insane AoE kind of healing in like five seconds, and during that five seconds you cross the you close the distance to them, and then like Gore's weakness of like being on range isn't that big of an issue. So there's like ways to enable the characters, but like it needs to be in specific matchups, which is what I would want to talk with you guys about because I think that's where we have to base everything around what we talk about, right?

now is my problem is in rivals most of the player base is very unhappy right now like you see like the like people are very unhappy with the meta they're very unhappy with what is being played they're very unhappy with the limitations there are because like most of the time if some characters are open you have to play specifically those heroes to win and there is

like a reason for it and like it my general issue is many people don't know when something is good and when nothing is good and everything in the game is so

TrqstMe (13:21.2)
unbelievably matchup dependent. Like you can be on a worse composition and you will have almost zero chance of winning. And identifying what the worst composition is is what is impossible to find out kind of because you go from game to game with different bands every single time and every single time it feels like it there's a different issue while you lose. And like going down that path and analyzing each and every game and like connecting that to different

issues on the map, right, when you don't have the full experience, I feel like the conditions to learn are impossible. And therefore for me I understand when people are extremely angry, but I also don't know h how to fix it. So I would want to talk about what you guys approach would be so for me I can understand what would be helping casuals or helping new people like not feeling frustrated when they lose and maybe understanding more why they actually lost.

CaptainCoach (14:19.524)
Yeah, I I really appreciate that perspective. It's been something I've kind of been echoing a bit lately on my stream and my content is that the game has been more and more turning into more about the comp you pick rather than the individual hero power because everything is just in my opinion, getting so strong. And you highlighted it with gore. He's kind of like an AoE cleave type hero, really benefits from that and

You'll find that even if you go in and get that max uptime with the the shield ticking and all your your a your scythes hitting everybody, a Jubilee bubble and a cloak bubble, you put that down, it pretty much just negates it. So while Gore feels very strong in a lot of situations, he feels like he's sometimes not even worth picking. So it's just like, okay, is is this hero worth picking when you don't have someone to follow up to be able to break through the and and burst hard enough? Or

Is a hero like that worth peeling on? That's actually one of the questions I wanted to ask you, Donnie, is is a hero like Gore, most people he I I've noticed people are very split on whether or not he's good. I I personally think he's very strong, high output. one of the questions I have for you is is he worth ever peeling on, or is a hero like that do you just swap? Right? And I cause I think that's a question a lot of people have a lot now is you have heroes that are really good at like a couple things and

Donatello (15:20.376)
Sure.

CaptainCoach (15:46.097)
Is it worth kind of s seeing it through and and, you know, maybe picking that hero as an anti dive just to get some guaranteed damage on like a Venom Spider Man or do you just swap to something like Namor in that situation? I think I think those types of conversations would be really beneficial to the average ranked player.

Donatello (16:03.535)
Okay. well I'll go over like your first like statement. You said like the the community is like divided like half and half saying he's good and bad. I've seen that. like just this morning I had like I was interacting with someone on Twitter going back and forth about like the character being good or needing a lot of people say that's what I've seen the most people say he needs his shift and his like TP to be like uncancelable, which at

First, like the first three days I was agreeing with because the character's new and I'm I wasn't like too like how do you say this, like used to playing him. So obviously that was fr frustrating, but I think that's his weakness, and every character needs a weakness, right? Otherwise ev like you'd be broken. If he's just perfect, then he's broken and he's gonna be like a permaban and we're all over like Elson release and we need to nerf and blah blah blah. Which right now he's he's playable, he's good.

He's he's a fair character, like trust me said. He's not like super oppressive like release black cat when she had like iframe, i frame, invis, invis, walking on the walls, invis. She he's just like he you can deal with him, but he can also get value, which is fun. so people said that he needed his shift and his TP not to be cancelable. Now playing him a lot in strictly like from the beginning of season, like top five lobbies. obviously we've had season right res rank reset, but doesn't really matter, it's the same players.

Like I've had like a really positive win rate and I he doesn't need that at all. Like he is just i sometimes you'll die in mid cancel, but like same thing as like an iron fist dies or like a Emma dies while while she's mid grab. Like, you know? It's just it's just part of the game. Yes. Yes, yes. First days I was like, this character's alright, he's fun to play, but like I agree should get that. But like playing him more and more and just like figuring out the playstyle and how to play him.

CaptainCoach (17:43.514)
So so you flipped on that, 'cause I remember I think initially you were yeah, okay.

Donatello (17:57.481)
he doesn't need that at all. He he's completely fine without it. Otherwise, if you give him that, he's super broken. So I wouldn't want that for like a character. I want the the game to be balanced. I don't want to like even if I play him, I don't want the character to be like super broken to where he's banned every game and I can't even play him. as f yes. Switching Yeah.

CaptainCoach (18:15.074)
So the so the next part then was picking him in right, to when he's you're not doing the first best thing on the hero, you're doing maybe like the second or third best thing. Is it worth like at the average player picking Gore as whatever, like an anti dive, just to to kind of brawl out the people on your back line, or is it do you just swap at that point?

Donatello (18:22.606)
Hmm.

Donatello (18:33.976)
Yeah.

so from my personal experience of from what I've seen, Gore's pretty good into almost everything, honestly. And even Dive, just for the fact that you and trust me mention and which is what I'm a big like that's what I say to to my chat when they ask about him. he his AoE is the best part of his kit. Not a lot of characters have that much AoE like he does. Like no one has a scythe that you can just swing and hit multiple targets and then

use your hella team up and gets four more sight swings. That is a lot of AoE. And combining that with let's say the he Henence Hella team up, the range you have on the scythe is ridiculous. I think it's like eight meters, if I'm not wrong, which if you guys want to go like in practice range and test it out, it's ridiculous. The fact that you're a melee character swinging this far and like that much range, because it's like it's like a like circular, I guess, like motion.

So I've done pretty well against dive as well. Like let's say Spider-Man's hitting and he's standing on top of me, like swinging, I can swing him twice and he's like half HP. And with a little bit of help, you can do a lot. I've also done pretty good against like black cats now that she no longer has the iframe. And I can just swing on her when she engages, track her like trail, and then I can I can easily beat like a black cat on the off angle with the character now. so I I I think you can play him I'd say like damn near every game. Obviously sometimes

you'll have to swap. But for the most part, like you can definitely like like find a playstyle to play him. Obviously if you have like a Venom and White Fox, you super dive aggro and you you hit the back line like constantly. But you can definitely like work around your way around the map in different comps with him. From my experience, but I played a lot of games and I've been doing pretty good so

Coach Mills (20:26.427)
I have a question for you, trust me. Kind of what you were talking about. You were talking about people's like ability to learn, right? like like and and right now it feels like you need to pick the right composition of the right characters, because a lot of things matchup dependent. Do you think that that is the way that the game should be balanced? Like, like, like, or maybe even designed? Because like there's ways to design characters so that it's not as matchup dependent as it currently is. Like that is that's typically, or do you not agree with that? Like

When when certain character strengths are so strong and their matchups are very polarized, and that's like across the board, where like certain characters are very, very good or completely dominant against other types of strategies. 'cause I guess the and then the follow up question to that is is it reasonable to like have even the casual player or the middle rank player or even like the slightly high ranked player to understand what how you see the game?

Like like is that something that's even possible? 'Cause we we talk about this you you talked about this the last time you were on the pod when you were talking about people's ability to learn. And I I just I feel like like you said, it's like it gets further away. Every every new patch, every new change, every new hero, it's like the g the gap gets wider, not sh not smaller. Like you like your like somewhat like your understanding of the matchups get deeper versus like like a like a random like diamond player, their understanding of the game gets

TrqstMe (21:28.594)
Yes.

Coach Mills (21:52.34)
less actually as the as the game keeps evolving and changing. So what how do you feel about that? Do you think that's a design do you think it's a problem? Do you think it's a design thing? I'm I'm curious how what you're thinking.

TrqstMe (22:03.91)
I generally think the entire direction of how patches are approached, how balance fixes are approached, how the community approaches it as well. As as we talked about, right? We talk about so much about how Gore is healthy. Some people say he needs more because other characters in the past were much better, or most of the matchups feel bad with Gore and it's very hard to get value from him because this and this reason. Like you have like this this divided community

That on one side wants a new hero to be extremely OP and the other side wants it to be like balanced, but everything else to be also balanced, right? And then like how do you actually get that done as a developer? Last time I talked about I I kind of protected the developers by saying it's not really their fault that they don't know which direction to take. Because just like for all of us, right, reading what is good in the game for us as pro players is priority number one, and every team reads it differently.

That shows you and like every team right now, if I I had I collected a lot of data over the last two weeks, right, where everyone feels kind of unhappy to play with the meta because it feels random, right? It that is a it is a feeling. It feels like you have no control over losing or winning because everything is so connected to the matchup, right? So the next best skill is to collect knowledge about the matchups, but if you try to go down that path, you can only improve one step at a t a step at a time.

And it's very hard to differentiate why you actually lost for more of a casual player. And like imagine that for a developer, they have to decide right now in their in their broken gameplay loop game, right, where some of the heroes break the logic and break some kind of structure and archetype of the way the game needs to be played. Where by like their overwhelming cooldown, by their explosivity, by the amount of sustain that supports give, like everything you can like name everything that like I'll I'll like go down the path, but

You like name everything and it just completely r relates back to the issue that now how are you expecting developers to make a good patch? If the community is this divided with everything in the game, right, and everyone wants something different, you have to cater to one group. And even if you try to cater to that group, there is bands in the game. So let's say you want to make dive matter, you make dive really strong on some heroes, right? But then you lag out on the idea that

TrqstMe (24:29.438)
People will ban the meta, right? They will ban the dive heroes. So now suddenly the comp you thought was broken is now bad, and like a completely different sustain matchup will be played, even though the developer has had a dive meta in mind. Because they miscalculate one of these instances or one of the interactions on the map. And then like it doesn't matter that they buffed a certain character if now the character itself cannot be enabled or is completely banned out.

And that character fully enables the dive, and another character denies it, which is now more strong in the matchup because some heroes are banned. So it it kind of like breaks this this idea that it's now very hard to make a proper balance, and we actually need a new approach to balancing in general, and like away from power creep. And I'll get to that. Like there's like four big things that are so important to like look at. First is stunts.

Overwatch in the past, right, has removed a lot of the stunts. If you remember Overwatch 1 with six tanks, stunts add a risk factor to walking up on the map. That is a big problem because that actually leads into sustained situations. That leads into like uneven gameplay flow where even though you're up cooldowns and you could theoretically walk through the choke, the stunts will still give a loophole where the support defending team

will have a natural advantage on the corner and on the a neutral position.

CaptainCoach (25:58.353)
Can I stop you there? I'll let you get to your other four. Would you say then, because this is kind of what I wanted to ask you, a stun is obviously very debilitating, but it's really to me the ease of use of of being able to land these stuns. So would you say that just in general, not just with stuns, but matchups would matter less and the game would feel less crippling if you're not playing what you need if

TrqstMe (25:59.433)
Yeah. Yeah, I'll write down.

CaptainCoach (26:25.166)
the consistency of the output of the heroes was just slowered a little bit? Meaning you actually had to like put more effort into landing a stun or healing your whole team with an ability, like with a bubble that you put down as Jubilee and just dancing it while while you're you know would you say that the game might need to be a little harder to to make the it actually feel better for everybody? Or is that not something

TrqstMe (26:50.588)
I mean I I've said it the last time and I I actually like I I don't know how if all if you guys read the document I wro I I wrote. Right? I like wrote a really big document on what everything needs to be changed. It it includes all of the four things, it includes reasoning. I don't know if you guys read it, like but Okay.

Coach Mills (27:08.671)
I I s I I didn't read the whole thing, I skimmed it. But I I wanted to ask you a lot of questions about it though. Here. Yeah.

TrqstMe (27:13.064)
Yeah, that's fine. Well, coming back to your question, if I if I rec recall what you do you say exactly right now?

CaptainCoach (27:20.63)
It it is it do you think important or worthwhile to lower the consistency of the output of heroes to make it a little less reliable to be able to land a stun or heal your whole team or do a ton of damage on Goreb with just one swipe of your axe. So maybe make things a little maybe make the output of something match the the level of skill required to do it. So so that that it's more in the player's hands rather than the hero. Because it right now it kind of feels like rock, paper, scissors, right?

TrqstMe (27:50.121)
Yeah. And like I do believe what I'm looking for is more like a Overwatch One version than actually like a sustained rivals version. Like I I don't even like I I do think this is like a valid point to talk about. Like for me we need to talk about what defines rivals even. Because for me what I want for for the game, I want more one v one interactions and I think where it needs to start is supports.

Supports need to be able to defend themselves. It is a it is harming that they can't. The reason why they need to do it is because now if supports can't defend themselves, we need to add characters more stunts to like give them a loophole where they actually can be defended. They need more sustain for themselves because otherwise the game is unfun for them. Okay. And it is true.

You know, you cannot argue in a way that they you can say, okay, what like if one role is not fun, it's whatever. It is not the case. The problem is that role now becomes incredibly important because there is no way for them to reliably fight back against the D D. So they have no other choice but to keep giving that that like supports more cooldowns that have more sustain and DPS more stunts, which lead into an unfun gameplay loop for every hero in the game.

Like divers have no fun because they get perma stunned and they don't know when they die or like it's very hard to dive. Supports have unfun because they just play to live, they can't fight back. DPS have unfun because they get consistently like they have to like chase people that they can't chase. Like it was Black Cat before, then it was now it's Didi sometimes. You know, when you don't play Elsa, you have a nightmare a nightmare fighting DD because Didi wins every 1v1 on angles and you cannot get healed because you're always playing sustained supports.

Because they need to play sustained supports because they die to dive. Like the power creep in this game is at an all-time high where no matter what role you play and no matter what what like happens, one way or another, depending on the matchup and what is being played, it will be unfund for one role. That is a guarantee. And there's no way right now in this like broken loop to fix that feeling, I believe. Like you need to fundamentally mentally break it down and rewrite

TrqstMe (30:07.442)
The formula of how the game is being played.

Coach Mills (30:10.881)
So w do you wanna go?

CaptainCoach (30:11.052)
I'm I was gonna bring Donnie into it. I I actually have an idea of like how to do that, but we'll we'll get to that in a second. I wanted to hear Donnie's take on what he said before we 'cause it looked like you wanted to say something, Donatella?

Donatello (30:21.262)
well well trust me's first line saying like that supports don't have like anything to defend kinda like shocked me because I feel like their kits like are pretty like strong. But then he kind of went into it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, then I kinda like you kind of explained it, so that's why like my initial reaction was like a little shocked. But I think what you're trying to say, trust me, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you want them to like have like more like damage, like straight damage, like let's say like

TrqstMe (30:32.786)
I said they can't fight back. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (30:39.555)
Okay.

Donatello (30:48.098)
You want Luna to shoot back and not necessarily like throw like a freeze and a charm and that's it? Same thing for Cloak, like you you want her to like have kind of like a kit like White Fox, I guess, rather than just like throw shit on the ground and s like live, I guess.

TrqstMe (31:02.516)
Yeah.

It needs to be an interactive one-on-one that you engage with people. Because and that needs to be for every role that would make the entire game feel kind of better, right? Because then you don't win by ignoring like dives and you have some some guys peel for them. Like this this current team game is the fact that you have supports that say, Okay, I'm ignoring everything that happens, tank, hold as deep as you can. We have Elsa who peels the dive and we just keep walking forward. And this gameplay loop is just really awkward and finished.

When like some characters get banned and now you don't know if you can defend it or not, and then like it like supports need to get the sustain uptime and it's just really weird.

Coach Mills (31:42.242)
Cause I I'm I'm curious if you agree with this, trust me, 'cause I think you're kinda talking about some of the stuff that I was talking with Captain Coach about after him and I did like a support challenge where we just we were just climbing, you know, not not particularly high to like Celestial to just just to understand like what supports go through, you know, like kind of understand the role. One of the things that we found is like the role just heal bots, like like such a massive amount of time. And it's like it feels like ninety-five percent of your gameplay loop is just healing, you know.

Pocketing a DPS, pocketing a tank, just constantly healing, constantly healing, constantly healing. That's like all you're doing. And it's like it's like to the point where like if we think of like a hero like Cloak, the like the actual fade, like the playmaking aspect of the character feels like it's very secondary to just the raw sustain output, the heal output. And we feel like if if you know, in order to probably fix that, you would probably have to massively reduce the damage to just being output in the game, like by a quite a quite a bit.

And then reduce the healing as well. Like the idea is that healing gets too much value inherently. And cooldowns and playmaking that are not sustained related don't get value. So like that could be damage. That could be that could be a whole bunch of different things. That could be fade. That could be different different cooldowns that give you playmaking. It could be ways to fight, ways to duel, ways to whatever. I know you brought up the Overwatch example. I know like the the chat's gonna like lose their f their their minds 'cause they hate it when every time they

TrqstMe (33:06.258)
Yeah, it's a very hostile topic. It's a v i in general it's always a very hostile topic.

Coach Mills (33:07.627)
They they they bring it. But like like like on a like like on a anti nade is like an example of like that's like not just a pure sustained cooldown. And in a lot of ways it was never used as a sustained cooldown. It was used to playmake, right? It could be a sustained cooldown, but it it mostly was just used to anti playmake, right? And it it gave her dueling capability, it gave her playmaking capability. but that's because her bullets didn't heal 300 per shot.

And the way to win the game is just for her to just like super pocket her her tanks, her frontline, the sustain, right? So like that's why the loop there was like maybe fifty percent healing, fifty percent playmake. I don't know what the actual ratio is, but it's not what it is now. Where it's like ninety five percent of the gameplay loop of the support is just heal botting and it's it's not fun. Like I I don't know I

CaptainCoach (33:58.837)
Especially when you're not getting triple, right? Like like you don't get triple in an an average ranked game. not until you get to the higher ranks, right? If you stop healing for two seconds, someone dies. They just pop. If you reload a lot of the time. So so you have to actually like time your reloads, which you know, this is like whatever cool little gameplay thing you gotta do, but it's it sucks. It it feels terrible. You know?

Coach Mills (34:08.151)
They just pop.

Coach Mills (34:19.755)
But but what is your what is your thoughts on that? I thought I saw you nodding your head. I'm curious what your thoughts on on the support experience is for both like like the average player and the high rank player. And and do you agree or disagree with what I'm talking about?

TrqstMe (34:33.874)
I mean as I said, right now, depending on the matchup, depending on if you have heroes to defend each role, right? Like archetype, everyone will feel terrible. Like that's that's the r reality right now. Supports feel terrible to play in some matchups, mainly because of what you say, right? It is true. Supports are heal bots, okay? If they have a D D, it's better to when you even when you play Gambit, it's better to dash away from him.

instead of fighting him actively in an interactive one v one, right? Because he and bait him into like a space where U DPS can clear the D D for you because he's better suited for it than you, right? Or like having bait him into a space where the where the where the tank can clear him, right? Because you can't fight him because your interactive one v one is too weak. Right. So this is like a unfun gameplay loop, but the same thing happens now people will say D D is kind of unplayable because they don't realize that some matchups will be like that.

Some matchups you will be un it will be unplayable for you. And I do believe right now you need a complete rework on approaching the game. Right? There's like four big things that need changed. Stuns are one of them. If you reduce the amount of stuns, the risk on playing the map becomes lower. So dive becomes more of a playstyle. But then again, it goes back to a a meta where supports have no other choice but to stay alive and keep he boarding. And that is an unfun gameplay loop.

especially against dive. So having like a sustain meta for supports makes sense, but they also don't feel good for all roles. Plus supports also don't feel like that's nice. What supports would want most of the people, right? I don't know, right? But from the from the people I talk to, at least the top rated teams, would say the the role needs to feel like a strategist role. It needs to feel like you go into interactive 1v1s, you have realistic chances

of dueling DPS, of dueling tanks, right? And the downtime for that is not too high. And like I'm I'm going to go over all of the cooldown changes and everything I would change as I said in my document. And I also appel everyone to read it. I put it out on on Twitter. You can like easily find it scrolling through my my line if you wanna have like a fifty page document about what I think needs to be changed. But yeah.

Coach Mills (36:55.713)
Yeah. Right.

Donatello (36:56.898)
Ha ha.

CaptainCoach (36:58.617)
Okay, so

Coach Mills (36:59.531)
Yeah, yeah, no, give give us give us your I'm I'm just curious, like, yeah, the top three. Like y we will I'll probably ask you questions about it after you list but I'm curious what's your other three? So the first one is no stun or less stuns. A lot less stuns. What's the what's the other three that you think is needed?

CaptainCoach (37:02.179)
Other three.

TrqstMe (37:14.462)
But I I do wanna I do wanna say something 'cause I kinda like ignored your question. You said like lowering the damage outputs would make it feel better for people. I think the opposite. I think you need to increase the damage output and increase the risk of playing the map, right, that people have.

Coach Mills (37:21.686)
Right.

Coach Mills (37:29.823)
Wait, the increase the damage output from like people that are shooting. Well no well I'm saying like I'm talking about the damage outputs of everything. Like like like Elsa bullet, Bucky bullet, you know, like the damage that is being thrown. 'Cause like like what supports complain about well but like what

Donatello (37:33.006)
F yeah, from DPS?

TrqstMe (37:33.522)
Yes, from supports supports need to do more damage, a lot more.

TrqstMe (37:45.478)
It dep it depends on it depends on the hero for sure. Right. You can't just like say, Okay, I'm I'm buffing like I don't know, Diddy in example and now he's just complete fanos, right? That's like unreasonable.

Coach Mills (37:55.574)
Right. Well, 'cause 'cause the th that that's always the ca the put the pushback when we when we say, you know, to to the community, hey, we like this sustain is too much. Like this sustain is too powerful. They say, well, we have to have this sustain as powerful because D D's gonna one tap us. our dino's taking f six hundred damage a second. like and so like the response to that is or at least the way that I kind of explain it to them is like a lot of these numbers probably need to be tweaked as well because like

We don't want like the whole point is to move it away from a gameplay loop where you feel like that's your only out is to just like dump, you know, six hundred healing per second at all times and that's the only way that you can survive. Like we've gotten too far. Like you said power creep or whatever you want to call it. Like it's it's too you know.

TrqstMe (38:40.788)
Mm.

CaptainCoach (38:43.192)
I kind of threw together what I wouldn't call like a end all be all, more of like a band-aid fix. But let me let me run this by you, trust me, and and Donatello too. And let me know if this is something for the strategist role that you think would make the game feel better for everybody. So not saying that this should be in the game, but give every hero in the game a passive five to ten percent health regen just per second on all the time.

So everybody just has passive sustain as if they had like a weak Ultron drone on them all the time. Okay. add more health packs in the game, give people more re-regenerative health, and pretty much just healer primaries don't heal anymore. But now they heal through abilities, they heal through cooldowns, and all of their control type abilities and mobility, and maybe their damage too, gets an increase. So something like rocket dash goes back to longer range.

You have something like invis push maybe goes farther. Hell, maybe you even add new CC effects like a fear or something that moves people across the map, like you know, skives supports more displacements, right? And then maybe keep like a few of the healers as heal bots to kind of cater to that play style. Do you think something like that, where everybody kind of just has a naturally more sustained health bar, healers aren't forced to heal bot now have more opportunity to make plays on their own? Do you think that could potentially open up?

The role of strategists and everybody else too, because I don't want to get too convoluted but like when regenerative health got added, everybody thought that was going to help the healer healer role with the burden of having to keep health bars up, and all it did was just kind of make it harder because now you have less people in front of you to heal. And so just curious to hear your thoughts on that.

TrqstMe (40:30.652)
I mean I feel like it would be the complete opposite of what would be good to be honest. Cause then like because for me, right, what would would l it would mean that the matchups are even more important, right? Stuns are even more important. Like look at Donatello, bro, he's smiling, like he knows bro he's he's a five hundred HP, ten ten HP per second, regenerating Wolf, walking on an angle, and if he gets a grab, which is the only way to kill, because every other damage can now be avoided and regenerated on flanks.

CaptainCoach (40:34.852)
Really.

TrqstMe (40:58.002)
Right? The same way that supports will stay alive because they will also circle around a pillar to bait you into positions where the only way to kill you now is a stun. Right. So like what kind of like change will that be outside of that? Like this guy on like sitting on top right, bro, he's just going to be on Elsa putting traps down on the map, and like whenever you go too deep in it, you still die one shot. And then the the only way to die is to die one shot. So like the only way to win is to get stunned, right?

CaptainCoach (41:24.058)
Well, don't you think it would eliminate the constant going in and out of fights either to go get a health pack and go back in or go to your back line and then immediately jump back in? 'Cause I I know you mentioned the mobility a lot. You think it would increase what if the healing was just slower to a point where it was not like that? Right? 'Cause Hmm.

TrqstMe (41:34.535)
It would increase it.

TrqstMe (41:40.52)
Then it would still increase it.

There's there's various instances where that is the case. It was inc it would increase stacking together, it would increase playing for one shot, it it would increase DPS fighting for angles one on one, right, with characters that are good in the matchup. If you play Didi on dive and they have Elsa Wolf and they have a back line that self-sustains themselves, you will not be able to dive. It will be impossible. And regardless of how much overhealth you get or not, like if as long as everyone else gets that as well.

Nothing would change the gameplay loop right now. And like it would make it even worse because people would like they would like bait you into more spaces and they would walk around the pillar until and you would chase depending on what side you're on defending or attack, right? And then it would not lead into any gameplay loop that would be interactive 1v1 in a way that is fair designed.

CaptainCoach (42:34.072)
You you think that people would still be able to s sustain through even if the damage was significantly higher than the passive regen? Again, I don't think this should be in the game, just kind of proposing I okay.

TrqstMe (42:43.124)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (42:43.391)
It could the passage regen could also pause if you get da take damage. Like it could pause for five seconds if you take damage, like as a hypothesis.

CaptainCoach (42:46.916)
Sure. Well I think I think that would

Donatello (42:49.752)
So it's just green elf then. You just want more characters as like the the to have the green elf, basically.

TrqstMe (42:55.87)
Yeah, but like permanent and active, right? Yeah.

CaptainCoach (42:55.918)
I'm just trying to think of a way that would unlock yeah, to unlock healers to be able to kinda do their own thing a little bit.

Coach Mills (43:02.903)
Well it's yeah, like if a if a healer uses like all their healing cooldowns, they can't just, you know, one pocket you. I'm d I'm

TrqstMe (43:08.5)
But what what is a healer going to do? Most of the healers can't shoot, guys. Like you have rocket rocket and invis. Okay.

Coach Mills (43:12.033)
Well that well that w it would it you would have to ch you would have to change like it would you would have to change their kits to have like more damage based abilities. Like like their their primary on all these characters would be primarily damage based or dueling based. And then like their abilities are the things that heal. And that's pretty much it. It's just the abilities. They would have abilities that would heal. And like that would define a strategist is that they have abilities that heal, but they it's not about just looking at each other and pressing one, you know, or you know, like that's not

CaptainCoach (43:41.86)
Like something that I would think about.

TrqstMe (43:42.805)
Yeah but then we then we change the fundamental gameplay loop and then we don't need to change the the like passive healing, right? It wouldn't really add anything if we already changed the fundamental gameplay loop. At least for me. Cause I I do not like having like every character passive healing, right? I I think this is a unhealthy gameplay loop.

CaptainCoach (43:56.622)
Well I

Coach Mills (44:01.566)
Yeah, you you I you're so you're not a I was I was actually I wanted to ask you about that 'cause I know you talk about Overwatch a lot. I mean in Overwatch they do have that, where it's like when you're out of combat, you do get hit h HP back. I mean it's similar to Deadpool, right? How Deadpool operates.

TrqstMe (44:14.962)
You have it in rivals as well, you get green shield. Like Donatello said it. Yeah, but like most of the characters that are dive heavy get that, yes. And in Overwatch it's not a lot, by the way. It's it's a lot, lot less. Yeah.

Coach Mills (44:17.93)
Not every character will

Right. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (44:24.921)
Well I I

Coach Mills (44:27.519)
Yeah, it's very little. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CaptainCoach (44:29.464)
I so a game I like to kind of reference and and kind of what gave me that idea to begin with is old school World of Warcraft arenas, which share a striking number of similarities to the the type of PvP and rivals. Are you guys familiar with WoW Arena at all or how it works? It's it's pretty similar. Health bars go up and down pretty quickly. One heal can pretty much get your health bar all the way up, but there's a bit of more of a cost to it. But

Donatello (44:47.948)
I'm not.

CaptainCoach (44:59.064)
In that game, there's periods of 10, 20, even 30 seconds, even though the damage is very bursty, very spiky, where healers don't have to really heal. They can do damage, they can be aggressive, they can go for plays, because in that time there's enough control effects happening, there's enough like playmaking and and you know, moving around the map where it's not always about just kind of keeping the health bars up and down. So the healers are able to through mostly CC effects, but also through

like debuffs through buffing your teammates to like make them a threat so people have to back up to where healers can kind of in in world of warcraft that they're actually very pretty pretty popular can kind of go and make their own plays. And I I think if you like again I use the Invis push as an example. Let's just say it went way farther. So you know now you don't have to sustain your health bar up through a a bunch of regen, but you push someone so far away that you actually have time to kind of do something.

W which is kind of the initial idea behind the play. Like imagine a a a a a round where Invis players get to stealth in and go for a play on their back line right from the start. Like to me, that would be a lot of fun. And not having to be stuck main choke, just having to heal your tanks y because, you know, now they can survive. I I I guess that's kind of more w what I'm trying to shoot for here.

Donatello (46:20.866)
I mean they added a team up when you can do that with the whole team, but nobody does it.

Coach Mills (46:20.907)
Well.

CaptainCoach (46:24.758)
Nobody does it. All right.

Coach Mills (46:25.077)
No, yeah, no one does it. Right.

TrqstMe (46:27.304)
Yeah, because it's just bad. Like again, right? It's it's the same problem is is that it doesn't matter if you get more time to make a play, 'cause there's such a thing called defensive advantage, right, in rivals. And it's it's it's so heavy because of stunts, because of the risk of walking up, when they walk into your space, more people own the space, they can look at you sooner, right? This is like the the corner situation, right? Most of the people, someone know know what it means. I would I would recommend

Coach Mills (46:29.279)
Yeah.

Donatello (46:29.706)
I mean is it? Have we tried it?

TrqstMe (46:55.72)
Maybe like thinking about like when you walk through a choke, right, when you walk up past a corner, right, multiple people get the chance to look at you and that means that whoever is on attack always has harder conditions on the map because you don't own the space. But in order to fight for the space, your supports don't have cooldowns usually to leave main. So you don't ha often have choices, therefore they there's always a defensive advantage on

like the way not only with the fact that people can like need to peek into your crosser, right, which is also an additional problem to defense, but which is like a fine problem to have, like this is this is a normal thing. There needs to be some sort of defensive advantage. But the problem is there's an illogical way of breaking the choke, which just fundamentally doesn't work because of the amount of healing. And like the problem is the same happens for the defending team.

Like let's say you push someone away and you make a play on the other side of the map, right? The Didi is catching you from from behind. Often there is no way of randomly walking forward. You can't just like on as a defending team, have you ever seen that you just randomly walk into the enemy team? Most of the time your win condition is playing to stall and clearing the hit. That's your win condition. There's no almost never a time to actively walk into them. And that's because walking past a certain line in the game, because of

Either side having a advantage on like a defensive advantage, right? Regardless of if you're playing the attack game mode or defensive game mode. It it's more like a the way how the fight is structured, right? And depending on who is trying to walk into the enemy team will have the defensive advantage or offensive disadvantage, right? No matter how you see it. There is no way that the gameplay loop right now is healthy with the fact that you can never break the choke actually.

Coach Mills (48:45.249)
So I guess my follow-up question to that is like besides stuns, what's the other way? 'Cause like the way that I kind of think about this in my head is like you're trying to seize your tower. Like, I mean, throughout history, like defending is always more powerful than attacking, right? Like when you have like a fucking, you know, a giant fortress, right? And it to me, it kind of feels like because cooldowns are always up and sustain is always up and strength is always up, it's like you're destroying like

Like there's a watchtower, there's like a fucking cannonball or like a like whatever shoots a giant arrow, and you're breaking all these things and you're like clearing the way and it just regenerates. And it's like you never really get a chance to fight a weakened tower. You're never really getting a chance to weaken, you know, soften the the castle before you invade. It's just like it's just a fucking full HP self-regenerating castle of defense that like and like you said, they have the advantage. You try to walk through.

CaptainCoach (49:34.573)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (49:37.597)
any choke point and they have the you know, they have every single advantage. They have, you know, first look, they have crowd control, all of that. So what's the actual solution there to break through the castle? Like how do how do you

TrqstMe (49:48.617)
There is no solution outside of having a more explosive turn, right? That can be through a good dive hit, that can be through a good ultimate economy, that can be to a cooldown advantage, such as Emma grab, you know, like something like that. But the main issue, right, for me is if regardless if you do a hella flank or not, they have triple support. You can do 800 damage on that flank. It will be healed in a second. Meanwhile, your team can't advance in main because depending on which side you're on.

Right, if you're defending, most of the time the enemy has a unsafe backline position which tanks or any DPS can access as soon as you actually try to walk into the enemy team. There's no other way for me to say it outside of like maybe drawing it, and I'm down to like h hold a visual thing here 'cause I do it all the time.

CaptainCoach (50:34.978)
Yeah. I I'd love that actually.

Coach Mills (50:35.735)
Yeah, yeah, go for it. Yeah. You can share you there's a little you can click the share at the bottom. You can click share. It'll it'll pop up.

TrqstMe (50:38.674)
Yeah, because I think it's it's too h yes, yes. it's too hard to explain it. It is it is straight up too hard.

CaptainCoach (50:41.356)
I I I I've just been thinking of the K Kun Lun map this entire time when you're talking about about defense and trying to get to that through that first main little gateway.

TrqstMe (50:51.764)
Yeah. Wait, let me see. I have to share my full screen. Yeah, museum is an example.

Donatello (50:56.022)
I think about museum, museum's first point is really like

Coach Mills (50:57.463)
Dracula Dracula Castle. I mean every if like every fuck every fucking

CaptainCoach (51:00.132)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (51:03.806)
Okay, so an example of what I'm wait an example of what I'm talking about is Yes The problem is like let's say you have like a let's say you have like a Hella, right? And that Hella now in team like let's say team team blue is now team green. An enemy Hella is going on this flank. You become a liability to your own team if you team blue. No matter how much damage you output here on this angle.

Donatello (51:06.574)
shit.

TrqstMe (51:33.599)
The only way to truly get value from this flank is to get a kill, one shot. But if you look at this logically, let let's say we ch we choose Hella over Didi right now, then my team has not really honest conditions to actually walk up. We have too many characters that are too slow on the map, and when we actually try to walk past this line, right, which is here in the middle of the map, what will happen is we will get clashed with the enemy tanks. And it doesn't matter how much damage.

My Mac does to the enemy mech because he can always decide to hide behind natural cover or to negate the amount of damage that happens to him by being shot. So now Hella players are passively taught because if you actually end up getting shot out by McNeil, which is very common, right? You're actually taught it's better it it's worse to go on a flank and just come back in main and play slow and play for sustain. Because if you die on this position and you get entry picked.

The fights draw out for 40 seconds and getting entry picked instantly loses a fight. Because it's 5v6, conditions are weakened, now the enemy team gets to swing. And until that moment, nothing happens in the game. So the most logical thing, and imagine this is like on an actual corner map, where it's not like a a full front to back, and it's actually very hard to to walk up on the choke. Like an example can be what is an example? This is like an example, right? Where it's actually very hard to randomly walk into them because there's no space on the map.

You can't randomly generate space. And the only way to to get space is to have a stronger turn. Right? Like let's say your team red here, an example, you get completely stuffed, your backline has the weaker position, and the actual only way to walk out of this is with a s with a support ult. You guys know it, right? This is the main situation where everyone is. Or like an aggressive Loki lamp or an Emma grab and like play for a stun entry pick. And this is for me an unhealthy gameplay.

That's why I do say like in mid season finals there was a third way of playing the map, which is with mobile characters that had the ability to play and make a different play, which is like go Psylock or go Captain America, touch the back of the point, there you draw people back away from the fight, and now you lessen the pressure on the choke so your backline has a safe position to walk out. It's still not a reliable way, right? And like there there's way more to it in general. But the problem is in in in general is that this line

Donatello (53:53.377)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (53:55.761)
Of walking up on the map is too risky right now. And in the same example is that I can draw right now, and I think I need to draw this because I really need to make sure I get my point across. It does not matter how much damage either Emma does to each other. That's the problem. The problem is the gameplay loop right now is unrewarding because no matter who gets the resource advantage, like let's say my dam- my emma takes more damage, it is instantly negated by the amount of healing in the game.

Donatello (54:08.125)
TrqstMe (54:24.85)
And by the natural cover I can take. Let's say I'm I'm green Emma and I'm losing space right now. Right? Like let me get like a Didi and a Bucky as well to like make it this it make this an even matchup. Right? Both teams play the same thing. Maybe you have like a cap or whatever in the team. It doesn't matter right now. Let's say we play the same matchup. Enemy shoots me, I shoot them. The team that is actually getting an advantage by me being low, I walk over here, the enemy team has to walk up, and now you see.

This back line is completely disconnected. And they don't have a better hit right now. This Emma doesn't generate that advantage. And the DD, meanwhile, can't develop. Because while I trade like this, the DD will be isolated, and my DD actually gets better conditions through my lunar positioning to fight the enemy DD. And normally it should be like you fight the enemy Emma, she has to give space. During the downtime of healing, you can like do more advantage on the map. But right now, Team Green has to team red has to chase.

And then you can't develop the map because right now you're going to go in alone. So you need other people to follow up. But then you see the issue is the team green can instantly reset every progress they did. And now they actually get a better turn with more people when their back line actually has a weaker condition to swing the position. And this is the defensive advantage for any side. So logically the conclusion is: no matter what side you're on, it doesn't make any sense to walk up right now. It is unrewarding.

Because the the logical conclusion is the team that walks past this line right now of pressure will have the worst conditions. So the best way to negate that is with a more explosive turn or with a cheese like a grab or like a stun or anything like a wolf trap Donatello knows it. Right. That that is the way to break this choke. But it's in it is a very bad gameplay loop for V Source Trading. And this happens because the sustain is too high and it's too easy to reset. It does not matter.

Which Emma takes more damage if it doesn't matter that you can't walk. Like you it doesn't matter if you do more damage than the enemy Emma, that's a fundamental gameplay issue. The same way that the enemy Hella going on a flank here is completely impossible. Because even if he does, Didi is a better suited character, and she can't get value if she doesn't one shot and she's going to be outturned and then she has to give up space and they will get the map space for it with a very, very high instance. It's the same issue over here.

Donatello (56:25.198)
Yeah, but

Donatello (56:29.964)
I think we all agree.

Coach Mills (56:46.475)
Wait, Donny, what we what were we gonna say about that?

Donatello (56:48.27)
I was gonna say, I think we all agree that sustain's like too important in the game, but earlier you were saying like that their damage, like the the the strategic damage output should be more. But I feel like the main issue, like for me in my games and for what I've seen even from like the past seasons, i it's it's simply the sustain and how the support school downs are way too low.

Compared to like I guess the DPS and the tanks cooldowns. Like the the low key lamps are like literally an ultimate on a cooldown. And so is, in my opinion, like an Invis Shield. I mean, I've had like a TikTok post where like an Invis Shield can completely negate my entire Wolverine ult. Which is to me it is pretty crazy and and honestly.

Coach Mills (57:34.967)
I saw that's fucking crazy, by the way.

TrqstMe (57:39.506)
Yes.

Donatello (57:43.199)
shouldn't be a thing. Maybe I'm biased because I play wolf and I want my character to like be good. But when I'm ulting three people and a right click on your mouse counters my entire team up usage, shift usage, and backwards ult, which is like the new way to use the Wolverine note, which is like skillful, I guess. And you just take away that with like a simple right click on the Invis. I think that's where like the issue is.

And same thing as you're saying is like whenever you're like like from your your what you were showing us right there, like the Emma, the one V one doesn't matter because even if you get the crystal off the other emma and the other doesn't, it's like two hundred HP. Well that's clapped. L like a Luna clap just heals that completely. So it doesn't like matter to me Yeah, exactly. I

TrqstMe (58:31.752)
You can also just hide the damage, it doesn't matter. Like i it's more the fact that like the problem is you can't walk into the enemy team position. The same way you can't do that. So the only logical conclusion is to go in with an ultimate, which now you say gets negated. So we go back to the original point. Right now the gameplay design makes it unfun for almost everyone, depending on how like the game flow feels. Because fights go on for forty seconds because you can't randomly walk up into them, you need an explosive turn and during that explosive turn it

It is random on who wins because you say like most of the heroes have two good cooldowns to survive, right? And depending on on how it goes, your team will walk into with in with your ult or not, and the map is really set up really randomly.

Coach Mills (59:16.471)
So so I guess I guess the follow-up question I have for you, trust me, is you s you talked about how you said it was the midseason fin finale, right? The the where where it was two two two, right? Where where there like isolated engagements more. what exactly has changed between now, or then and now, in your opinion? Like not not like the actual changes, but like fundamentally has changed between then and now that has caused this problem. And how would we go back like like is there a a way to, you know, turn back the wheel to like

TrqstMe (59:24.168)
Yeah. Wait, it was

Coach Mills (59:46.508)
pivot the gameplay loop to something that is not just what you're saying where you're literally punished for taking and like any any sort of advantage that you create, you cannot capitalize on and you're punished for even trying to like pivot on any of this advantage because of the power of sustain and just like being able to punish anyone trying to like funnel through a choke funnel around a corner. Like how do you how do you fix that problem? Like in it's not just stuns, 'cause you cause even in your example, like that's not the only reason why they can't

TrqstMe (59:46.844)
Please stop.

Coach Mills (01:00:13.771)
They can't press. They can't walk around that corner. There's a lot of other reasons. Like you said, like they get to be seen first. Like the the team gets to completely reset and like heal up the Emma like instantaneously. Like so like what do you what do you think is like what's your actionable steps to like kind of fix that and create like more diversity in that gameplay loop?

TrqstMe (01:00:32.286)
There's like multiple things. I'm sorry Donatello for breaking what you said earlier, by the way. I I should have like fully listened to you. but coming back, for me it does feel like the best way to fix things is to give supports a completely new role. And like make taking damage matter. Because right now the problem in Rivals is that there are matchups where taking damage as a tank is always the best play.

Donatello (01:00:39.222)
No, you're y you're totally fine. I was done.

TrqstMe (01:01:00.242)
Because there's no other way to play the game. So that means that support feels like it's the best role because taking damage is rewarded gameplay loop-wise. Okay? The same way that as supports healing is rewarded gameplay loopwise.

Because it's a way on how the the the damage calculates itself out, right? Like the enemy can't take the map if you have tanks trading five hundred HP for the entire flank they do and instantly get healed up in two seconds because they need it, right? 'Cause it's a it's the it's a fundamental issue in the game that it can't be traded otherwise.

And the same way happens with now DPS are prevented from flanking and the only way to flank is to get an insane kit, right? Which then gets countered with an insane kit because there's no other way to do it otherwise. So like the entire gameplay loop is fundamentally completely broken.

Not only for for stunts necessarily, because stunts increase a risk of walking up anywhere on the map. So now now playing the attacking side is so much harder and most of the time the only way you end up playing the map is by going a stronger turn-based comp. You go like rocket ult, you go storm amp, you go punisher, right? You go Bucky Hook Displacement Tool to like remove the people from the circle of healing where they will survive in, right? And like remove them away from that insane sustain.

Donatello (01:02:15.723)
Okay.

TrqstMe (01:02:20.682)
But at the same time, most of the time as a tank you have no other choice but to play for that. Cause you like if you have Invis and Loki, they will not do something on the map themselves. So the only way you can give your supports value is by taking damage. The same way if you have Rocket and Invis, they can't shoot. They don't do damage.

So like the only way to give them value is to take damage. And that for me is an unhealthy gameplay loop in any instance where I believe supports need to be able to damage themselves so that now taking damage is actually a stat that matters. Like in a negative way. Right? If you take too much damage it should be punished. 'Cause then you can actually develop a ma the develop the map in a way that is like in a fair one v one cycle duel.

Coach Mills (01:03:03.071)
And and so what would be your solution? I I I the the comments are gonna lose their mind 'cause I keep bringing up Overwatch, but it's it's gonna happen. We're w it's it's something that we kinda commonly share. 'Cause like in Overwatch they they did that thing with the DPSs where when they you know, they when DPS did damage in Overwatch too, when D P S did damage, there like a twenty five percent or fifteen percent healing reduction applied for three seconds or something along those lines. That was one of their things that they did to try to solve that problem is to like create

TrqstMe (01:03:11.367)
It would be

Coach Mills (01:03:32.265)
incentive for DPS to mark certain targets and make it difficult for that person to be healed up. So like in a lot of ways like supports needed to like actually playmake on the aggressors instead of just pocketing like just like healing up the the tank in some in some cases. I I I'm not saying that that was completely successful. I'm just saying that's one thing that they tried. may maybe we've reduced the healing overall of the supports and like their ability to heal up these people. Like what what what is what do you think needs to happen? Like how how do you how do you fix that problem?

TrqstMe (01:04:01.854)
Well first there's there's four things to change. First is reducing the amount of stunts in the game. Because that gives like

That gives you and forces you to actually understand now that you have less stuns, what is actually a win condition to play for. Because if you have that gameplay loop changed, now suddenly you realize how strong certain characters are on the map. Right? Like Wolf in example will be incredibly strong, Didi will be still strong, it's always going to be strong in this instance, right? When there's no stuns. Dive is going to be strong because there's no niche gameplay loop of of chilling. Then I would say because of that reason, we need to give supports actually

cooldowns to defend themselves. We need 1v1 kit sets. I'm talking about Lucio kit set. I'm talking about Kiriko key set like White Fox in example as you mentioned, right? Those are for my in my opinion healthier kits to go in an engaging one v1 that is fair to both ends. But right now the problem is you can't pick that because sustain is too much of a winning playstyle. So like even if you had that you can't you can't pick it right now because it's unplayable because the matchup doesn't allow it.

What else do you need to change? You need to change movement cooldowns. Every dive character needs to be more punishable on a gauge, especially the heavy hitting dives. This movement creep stuff allows you to bypass issues on the map and negate any damage you take on the map. Instantly go back to full HP by pit stopping somewhere or going behind the corner. You can like always find a way to live, right? And it shouldn't be like that. The the fights need to be faster paced. If everyone can just keep playing to stay alive.

Right in a never ending cycle because they can always avoid dying because they have infinite movement cool and there's there's too less too low risk of engagement then that's a unhealthy gameplay loop in my opinion. And then

Coach Mills (01:05:53.112)
So what would just a second, real quick pause on that one. I mean that I mean we we we kinda talked about it earlier. yeah, we lost, you know, I think all of us watched their matches. And I know they have a pretty unorthodox style. You might not think it's very powerful at the tight end or whatever. I I I don't know your opinion on it. But I will say that that's kind of like similar to what we're talking about where, you know, characters like how would how what is that vision look like when we're talking about characters like Spider Man, characters like Gore, characters like Angela, characters like Venom? Like what does that actually

What does that actually look like to changes like those characters? If we're talking about reducing their movement or like reducing the movement creep of the game. Like how does that actually look? Like is it does it look like what happened to to Venom in nine point where they added two seconds to his swing? Or like what does it actually look like? And it looks like that across the board more?

TrqstMe (01:06:38.056)
Yes. Yes.

And it's if you if you reduce the amount of stuns, you also need to nerf the amount of uptime you can have as a diver and ma actually make meaningful dives, but you also need to nerf the amount of supports can heal so it goes the full circle, so like supports are able to DPS. The tank clash in main, if you play a hybrid comp, you play Emma vs. Emma matters cause it forces your support to look at the Emma, which now gives an opportunity for the diver to engage.

That's a healthy gameplay loop in my opinion. And now it needs to be the same way that when the diver actually engages, he needs to be punishable by like not being able to instantly get out and re-engage in it in the next very second because it's required anymore. Now a good hit is more valued. And that's what I think a more healthier gameplay loop would be for everyone.

Coach Mills (01:07:36.597)
Okay, so from my understanding, let's see if I'm missing anything. So it's a reduction in stuns, it's a in increase in cooldowns for movement or like a a decrease in move the movement creep overall. It's a it's a decrease in the healing capabilities of supports. those three, was there another one that I'm missing?

TrqstMe (01:07:55.581)
an increase in the damage of support and an agency kit that they can fight in a fair 1v1 where now they are not heal botting. Healing healing cannot be a winning playstyle. It needs to be it needs to be that that taking damage is not a winning playstyle. That's what it needs to be. Taking damage at the right time and timing needs to be valued more. That's

Coach Mills (01:07:58.253)
it

Coach Mills (01:08:07.905)
So in

Coach Mills (01:08:15.785)
Right. So like instead of

Coach Mills (01:08:20.673)
So d just to just so people get like a visual example. So like instead of like cloak and dagger getting something like a bubble or or an ice block, it's something that like actually can like it's a skill shot that like can fight back. She hits something, maybe she wins the duel. Or like it's like a like a like a like a fucking slash that like does a hundred damage or something. Something that she can use to duel or or or whatever.

CaptainCoach (01:08:38.638)
Well, I I I from his ex example I kind of see it as both okay, both the emmas are fighting. One healer's behind one emma, the other's behind the other. And Cloak hits their blind when the Emma does her diamond, so that team wins because they comboed their burst. Whereas like the other cloak uses a blind right at the start and kinda wastes it while Emma's doing a ramp up and it's not as effective. Is that kind of more the idea like the ebb and flow where it like

their their health bars are inevitably going to drop because the healing's less, but it's more about the cooldown usage and the timing of it. Cause I like o obviously when I used my example earlier, give everybody random sustain, that was obviously like an extreme example. So you're saying just to lower it and actually have there be nuance in the fights and that and have it like there be like a timing element to it? Trust me. Is that is kind of more right.

TrqstMe (01:09:25.758)
Yes. It it needs to be that the enemy Emma can't just like like let's say I'm I'm playing the attacking side Emma

And I actually like do more damage to him with crystal. I break his shield in a moment where he's peaking us one vs six, you know, and he's like overextending. He can't just go behind natural cover, get healed up in two seconds, and the enemy Luna doesn't get punished for it. Right? It needs to or like the enemy Emma doesn't get punished for it by ha giving his team worse conditions, right? Because he failed in protecting the space. That is what is bad. Because right now the problem is

The Luna will just keep healing the Emma. He can go behind natural cover for two seconds. He's going to be full HP. My team can swing into him because the risk of walking up is too high. Because supports will have the worst position in the map. And they are more accessible to the enemy position when walking up. And if everything that caters around is the sustain loop, then now I will not have the sustain as the attacking Emma, regardless if I damage him out or not. And it's the same thing for the divers. If the Emma actually took

CaptainCoach (01:10:24.91)
Yeah, so

TrqstMe (01:10:28.358)
meaningful damage and now the support has to heal him because he over extended he trolled on the map and he can't focus on dana damaging himself to uptime the pressure in the choke which would lead us from like having a harder time to walk up. Now he has to heal and he can't defend himself from a dive which gives an opportunity for the diver to do something which now creates an actual chance to kill the Emma.

CaptainCoach (01:10:49.176)
All right. I I kinda wanted to ask Donatello, because you you said that you didn't want healer damage to be increased too much. would we take this change from trust me, where it kind of the sustain's naturally lowered and outplays will actually stick and and matter in a fight? And if so, how do we do that without having another support strike?

Donatello (01:11:12.45)
well okay. I'm not like fully agreeing with it. and it's not because the idea is bad, but I think it's because trust me plays at the highest level possible. So obviously like all the gameplay loop is much different from us, like I guess like ranked players and like whatever rank we are. Because ranked will see like everything. Like it doesn't matter if you're like top number or if you're like

CaptainCoach (01:11:13.996)
Or do you just not agree with that?

Donatello (01:11:40.909)
Like bronze, you'll see like some random stuff every single game. Obviously less at the highest level, but still, you know. but I I I I wanted to say that because I think the game is played in a much different way. when you play like a six-man coordinated gameplay, and everyone knows what's going on around the map, and everyone knows that Emma doesn't have the metal form, and everyone knows that Mantis doesn't have the sleep for the next like twelve seconds or whatever the cooldown is.

approximately. So buffing the the damage of the supports to me feel weird because I think the supports are pretty strong offensively as well to my like knowledge and experience and I think people will kind of agree with me. Maybe maybe I'm wrong and they they and they won't but like I think Luna's damage is insane. I mean the amount of time that I get snowballed triple head shot it and triple head shotted again I'm just dead

is to me pretty like annoying and I'm like w well should should the Luna being like a strategist in support be able to like literally one tap me when I'm off angling on Hella and she gets like a freeze off? Or is that like a little bit too much?

CaptainCoach (01:12:55.256)
I'm in your boat. I don't think support should do I I think support should do about half the damage of everybody else. But I but I think they should have way more control and utility. Like way more.

Donatello (01:13:00.6)
I

Donatello (01:13:05.634)
But that's just Luna, right? So taking that example is is a bit of like a pick and choose, sort of like you could say that like, well, Mentis could also like headshot Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm saying. And I I wanted to ask what characters cause to me the ones you were talking about, it's it's like mostly Cloak, maybe Jeff, that like to me are like their gameplay are a little bit unfun to play against. Cause like I feel like I feel like Mentis is sort of like

TrqstMe (01:13:13.278)
So only Hero they can fight back. With Adam maybe, that as well.

Donatello (01:13:35.287)
Anna from Overwatch and I think like Menth is a fair support or like strategist. Like she heals, she can damage boost herself, she can shoot. you know, her like her like mouse one is not healing, it's it's damage, and she she gets value, even more value, from headshots. So there's skill expression on that. same thing goes for Adam. Well, I think Adam Adam changed if I'm not wrong. Usually it used to be like headshots on Adam as well, reducing his snap cooldown, but I think they made that like the just like body shots with like his

right click like the holding and then shooting like your your enem your teammates. But I still think Adam is like Yes Like I would like to see Adam more in two supports. People don't do that because of how strong he is in triple support and what he can do because he also has like a a lot of damage, right? And the the the Soul Bond is like one of the best abilities in the game. It just gives you like a a free turn around the map. Like okay we're bonding, walk up. And then if the other if the enemy team is not like playing like Adam or matching the bond

CaptainCoach (01:14:05.87)
Yeah.

Donatello (01:14:34.872)
Well, it's pretty hard to win a fight, especially like the the early fights where you don't have ults. Like it's almost like a guaranteed win off like off walking off spawn basically. so I feel like Adam Mantis Fox I'd say like support pool. you could put Luna in that boat, the like the one shot bar is a bit unfun, but like I feel like those are pretty fair. Like the the ones I struggle and I think are boring is like cloak. Like cloak when you get dove, all you do is shoot the the fucking bubble on the ground.

And then wait that out like like trust me said you're like waiting for your team. Like what am I supposed to do? I'll walk up, I'll I'll wait for like I have five seconds where I can live in the bubble and then let me just ice block and have more time. So that I understand that that gameplay loop can be like really boring because all you do is is wait for help. You can't like defend yourself. Like literally all your abilities are relying on people to turn and help you.

Coach Mills (01:15:21.364)
So

Coach Mills (01:15:27.339)
So 'cause I I kinda wanna I kinda wanna respond to that, Don Donnie, 'cause I think what trust me is saying, it's more about the value proposition. So like Gambit, I think we can argue that Gambit can can duel things. Like he can kill things, he can shoot things, you could duel things, but is that the actual right thing you should be doing? And most of the time it's no. Like like almost ninety nine ninety five percent of the time it's no. The actual thing you should be doing is running away or pocketing your other support or pocketing your tank or pocketing your DPS because you it's not actually the right play for you to duel.

Like he's not saying that these characters can't duel, because some of them can. It's just it's not the right play, because the right play is just to play for the sustain. Play for, we're gonna patty cake or we're gonna heal this this tank or we're gonna heal this Elsa because this Elsa can can actually fight back. Like that that's it's not just like I I don't know. I don't I don't know if I'm I'm bastardizing your argument, trust me, but I'm I'm trying to kind of

Donatello (01:16:08.643)
Mm.

TrqstMe (01:16:19.42)
It is going in the right direction. Like some characters obviously have agency, right? Like Luna is an example that has agency, but it is what he says, right? The problem for me is that right now it is better to heal on Luna. So the best play is to like freeze a diver and to keep up healing in main, right? Whenever your Emma does get low and then shoot out the Spider Man. That is the one agency character you picked. But my issue is

If you would reduce the lunar healing, now finding a window and actually trading on the map in a resource responsive way makes more sense. 'Cause now you actually get something from like having the lunar's attention. Right? That would be a win condition for your team. Right now it's not really a big win condition.

CaptainCoach (01:16:58.256)
So

So I kinda wanna ask you this same question I asked Donatello. You know, w we have to be realistic in the context of the whole community and I think doing a change where you just drastically reduce the amount of sustain, a lot of these people won't be able to adjust and it's the band-aid's gonna be ripped off too fast and they'll and they'll just quit. So I I like to reference the the nerf to the healer alt charge that was

added in season 10 where it went from 70 to 65% of healing and then the damage went to fifty five. What if we did something where we kept the sustain in the game roughly where it is, maybe lowered a little bit, but the alt charge conversion rate you get for the healing goes down to some ridiculously low level, like 30%. So you it's a there's like a trade off, right? So now these people can

These players who want a heal bot can do it, but they're going to get their alts much, much slower. Right. So now there's more of a penalty. Do you think that would be a fair trade-off, trust me, for for people who just you know, this game ultimately is still for casuals. So maybe encouraging certain playstyles, because that that was one change that really bothered me about season ten was I thought that the healing alt charge should have been down to the same as everybody else.

Because if effectively, I mean, in any given game you're gonna have as much healing as someone has damage, if not more, right? So you're gonna get your alts faster, right?

TrqstMe (01:18:36.18)
There's a lot of things I can respond to right now, but like in general you're asking me if people would like my my game design. I mean it's a subjective game design, right? I also want I don't want to scrape the topic of what a casual is. Like I I play like Pokemon champions casually, right? But I still care about my points. Am I a casual or am I not a casual? Like it it is a very vague description. Like are you a casual if you play three times a three times a week or are you casual if you play once a month or

CaptainCoach (01:18:36.217)
Or do you think

TrqstMe (01:19:06.204)
every day w what what is like the definition of a casual, right? One who doesn't care about his rank points probably. Like no one knows for sure, right? But the main thing is people would be not very happy with the game design if it fundamentally changes and they don't like it. And it does come with the risk, right? Of course if you change things in the game, it comes with the risk of making people unhappy with the changes. Right? The same way that if you add a patch that people are not happy to read about, 'cause like things haven't been changed.

it's also unhappy. So like it's a it's a trade-off of what direction you want to take. Is it a gamble for a company to flip the entire logic of their game right now and go from a heavy sustain to a 1v1 action agency shooter game? like yes for sure. Right? That's again it's it's a subjective patch. That's what I would wish for. If you want a different direction and just want nerfs over the board and to have the gameplay loop stay somewhat the same

And like keep getting stunned on the map, keep getting cringe walking through the choke, only way to walk through is with like explosive turn, you know, and walk from main. You can't really play the map because triple support is just going to outheal you pocketed Diddy will just like walk on you on an angle and you can never flank as a DPS. These are like all fundamental gameplay group issues that are so so problematic to the game that needs to be fixed in my patch in order for me to feel better.

And if the community would like it, this is like the same thing I said in the beginning, is completely there's there's like always going to be haters and there's going to be people that don't like it.

CaptainCoach (01:20:42.764)
Okay, so the alt charge conversion nerf, which was undoing effectively the hot fix on day one of nine point where this it went went to sixty five for healers and fifty five for their damage. Do you agree with that change? Would you have done it different?

TrqstMe (01:20:59.42)
Again, my game is completely different. Like I I I don't agree to that change. I it leads to the same issue. I I said it in my document, no matter what change they do, no matter how they tweak the numbers, the the only way to truly change the game is to remove the amount of stunts in the game, to reduce the easiness of how r reappliable they are. Like stunts cannot be every ten seconds, you know. They need to have a twenty second cooldown. Same with lamp timings. These cooldowns that fundamentally break

The game flows that are one instance usabilities where you can walk up. Healers need to heal less and do more damage. Go get agency kits to 1v1 DPS. So now that I'm going back to the Donatello thing because I I read in his chat that people said like Luna is very good at dueling. The thing is like Luna is good at dueling, but she also heals too much, so even from diving her, you don't get a lot.

I'm talking about an interactive 1v1 situation where taking damage as a tank matters. So when you actually go in on the Luna, your team gets to walk through the choke because they actually get a resource advantage. And they can't hide on the map, they can't have a trap on the map where now it's hard to walk up. Your supports have to like swing the position and they're not bound to heal you. They can actually do damage on the map as well to assist in your dive. That would be optimal. Now most of the time you're solo diving and the game flow would change.

Right, and in the end of the day it would be a version of Overwatch One but with a different twist. And this is going to be again like the community is very hostile when you do scrape these topics. It is very true. Like I had recently, it's the same way the other way, right? I recently tweeted that Rivals introduces a lot of complex game mechanics and it's actually a hard game to play because it challenges different aspects of skills in the mind. Right? Like you're tasked with the fact of reading matchups.

Coach Mills (01:22:33.259)
Definitely.

TrqstMe (01:22:52.272)
as a as a professional, as a good player, you need to know when when something feels good, when something doesn't feel good. That's a skill set and that is something Overwatch doesn't have as deep. Okay? So like both games have their own own way of playing and I was completely, completely fried by the entire Overwatch community for saying rivals was actually a complex game. So like it it there's it's such a hostile environment for both sides and in the end of the day it is a subjective opinion. Right? So it is very tough.

Coach Mills (01:23:12.646)
I saw that. I saw I was gonna bring that up.

TrqstMe (01:23:21.96)
You know? And I do think you need to take the risk of sharing what is on your mind, right? To make changes.

Coach Mills (01:23:33.217)
So okay, assuming that they don't incorporate everything that you have in your in in in your fifty page manifesto, and they could do one thing or smaller things or you know, tweaks to the current state of how the game is. Is there anything that you would prioritize? Like is there anything that's like this is the first step in the right direction, in my opinion?

I know you I know I know it I know you you say it needs everything in order for it to but like the but the the problem is are they really is that is that actually realistic for them to just take a leap? and and like I mean I I I I I'm very interested in what your your version of the game would look like. I just don't know how practical it is for them to implement all of those changes all at once. even if they were on board, even if they agreed. I think it would probably be a combination of risky and and

TrqstMe (01:24:03.954)
It does need everything.

Coach Mills (01:24:28.617)
And so like is there any like if the if there's is there one thing that you think could improve the gameplay loop of the game, the game feel? like one thing in particular, one targeted thing. Like do you think just just reducing the sustain of supports alone would help? Do you think that would help?

TrqstMe (01:24:42.024)
Yeah. Yeah. It would like I do believe the problem is right now, in my opinion, is that the rival developers can't are not good enough at the game. They it is a fact they don't understand what what it it means to be good at rivals, right? Same with the community, because there's also no no way to learn, so they don't understand the fundamental issues with the game. That's a realistic approach. I know this sounds maybe arrogant but

Because I see it from a different view. But realistically speaking, they don't see what makes and breaks the game. So for me, if you truly change only one thing, it needs to be that supports need to do damage more than and and actually healing is valued because of that reason. So like doing damage to uptime your your pressure on the map and playing like with a d agency kit that is designed to to play and pressure offensively rather than

passively in investing your heels and playing to live, that's the best approach to change things. But it does come with the cost of now understanding other other kits on the map and other stuff in the game breaks the game as well. And then like maybe you can see it the same way that like it needs to be like this. When when Black Hat was released, it was shown that things in the game are fundamentally broken, a playstyle is fundamentally broken. The only way to live is to survive instead of fighting back

'Cause you couldn't fight back and that's for me an unhealthy gameplay loop. And there was no fix to it, because we saw that the developers couldn't find one. Now they find one in kill completely killing the character, but this archetype play style of sustain is still the same root issue, regardless of how much you tweak the numbers.

CaptainCoach (01:26:28.239)
I just

Coach Mills (01:26:28.321)
So what would that look like? Like a like a like a fifty percent reduction in healing and a twenty percent increase in damage or something like that, plus like a rebalancing of cooldowns, something along those lines?

TrqstMe (01:26:39.004)
I mean an example can be there needs to be like definitely lower amount of healing, right? Like if if you compare the healing, there there can be like moments when you have insane amount of healing. Like let's say you have like a I don't know, like a your clap in example, can do a lot of healing, right? But it needs to have a long cooldown, but the neutral healing needs to be, as you said, like thirty percent lower. Maybe maybe forty percent.

Coach Mills (01:26:52.897)
Well yeah.

TrqstMe (01:27:01.458)
Right? The damage on Luna can stay, but some characters need to be reworked. You know, Cloak and Degger needs to get more agencies in one v1. She can't just play to sustain. Jeff is a completely fundamentally broken character. The 1v1 agency, most of the time you play to completely piss off anyone who's diving you, and you just play it to stay alive and spin in a circle in your like your team up while uptiming your heals. And the only way to counter him last year was to get Didi in the game. There was no other way to counter Jeff. So you needed

A character that could actually counter that playstyle. And those are the characters that fundamentally break the game that needs a gr a rework. There's no other way for it.

CaptainCoach (01:27:36.911)
Yeah, I mean I I I could definitely see a vision of the game where you know your heels aren't going to be able to keep someone alive. So you're encouraged to go and make a play and and win a fight. I mean, I know you you say that Netties isn't very good at their game. I mean, I've seen their intermediate bots. I mean, they're not they're not bad.

Right. Like they I'm sure they use that for their training data and probably use a lot of the player movements that they track with their AI to kind of like get a feel for how people play the hero. So maybe not them No, you're nodding, no. Like I I think they they actually have a

TrqstMe (01:28:13.758)
This is a complete bad argument when you consider that matchups are fifty percent of rivals. If the conditions for one team is that much worse, the training spots can't develop the map, can't dive the map. Like let bro, let a training bot dive into triple support Elsa with Didi and and Venom, it's GG bro. It's complete GG. And then what are the developers taking from this? They're taking from this that it just doesn't like there's like s issues on the map.

CaptainCoach (01:28:20.034)
Yeah, but this is

CaptainCoach (01:28:28.76)
Yeah. But but how how how how realistic Well yeah, sure. But you're Yeah, but but you're you're you gotta underst like what are their goals as a company? Is it to make the most engaging experience possible or is it to get people on the dopamine hamster wheel of spamming down main choke? I mean that's that's what they want the game to be and it they've gone too far in that direction, but I don't think there's ever really been a a concerted effort to move away from that.

That's kind of been my point all along, is that they want the game to be like this. And yeah, it feels terrible, but this is a way that they're like you know, I mentioned casual. This is a brainless, easy way to play the game. And unfortunately, I I think with asking you these questions, we have to be realistic in the scope of like what is it they're willing to actually do and the type of people they want to attract to their game. So

I mean, I idealistically I think I agree with most of your points, but I think for the health of the game, I I just I I get what you're saying. Like obviously, like the they there's no way they have data on like advanced, complex like dive team comp setups, all that stuff. Sure. But I and and I I I see what you were doing, Mills too. Like we we gotta kind of be realistic here and and and take it step by step. I I don't think we're going like season nine, all those team ups in hindsight.

kinda broke the game and and made it worse in a lot of ways.

TrqstMe (01:29:56.755)
It added too much cringe to the map and like the risk of walking up is too high. That's like the problem. So now the only way to play is to play for a burst combo in main. Or to play for a heavy hit with dive or an old combo to actually kill the fight. And then if the enemy figures out to go a better composition in the matchup and goes triple, triple support, triple tank, full holds you on on any spawn point, and if you have like people that don't play in explosive turn composition, you just lose.

CaptainCoach (01:30:22.778)
Do you agree with that though, that that their main goal is is not to actually create a competitive experience, it's to just get people addicted and get into ranked and get on the hamster wheel or or do you do you not see that as something that's in pr like relevant?

TrqstMe (01:30:35.8)
unfortunately I I can't really say I I completely disagree with this take in general. I I do think what they need to realise is if the game feels good competitively to play, right, in a in a fun gameplay loop where you have interactive one v ones, right? Something that for me feels fun. Right? It's it's subjective. Again, like we're talking about subjective. It this question is is unfair

CaptainCoach (01:30:59.386)
Player numbers very good right now, by the way. So that's subjective or not, I mean, Mills, I mean, we looked at what the sorry, I didn't mean interrupt, but the game's doing well. It i is kind of my point. But I sorry, continue.

TrqstMe (01:31:12.756)
Hmm. Yeah, right. Then it it doesn't matter, right? Because it it feels bad to play for like the majority of the players that actually play a lot and that experience this matter, right? So the question is where do you want to head as a developer? I cannot tell you that. I can just only tell you from an experienced player that that is the direction I would want. Right? If it is helpful to the company.

Maybe. In my opinion I would say why would they not add this? An example can be if a casual, right? If a casual can play a meta that is designed for professional play with a inter a engaging gameplay loop that has actual skill ceiling to it and actual strategy more to it, right? With with the fact that there is downtime in the game, there's issues that happen, there's like problems that can arise if you make the wrong play on the map. Like it

And that cannot be cancelled out by one of like your players doing a a random play on the map as well and the enemy cannot walk up because they're not coordinated. if there is this kind of coordination, how would that affect casuals? That that argument makes no sense to me. The same way that you I have like the discussion with infinite people always where they say, I can be an OTP and I can still get top five hundred, right? Or

I can be a top five hundred player and I don't want to play with OTPs. Both is like valid, right, in their own argument and in their own subjective view. Right? Because you can you can like have less fun by saying, Okay, I cannot play in a team coordinated way because one guy is restricting us or picking one support, right? Or picking one tank and we cannot play the map. Like those are all different discussions, but they're all subjective. So I don't really know how to respond to this outside of that.

Just too subjective. I d I don't know if a game developer would say we're losing numbers now because we're like changing the game fundamentally. If the game still feels good to play to me.

Coach Mills (01:33:10.933)
I mean ul ultimately Netties has to I mean like ev basically I at the end of the day, I like everything is subjective as far as experiences, right? Like eventually Netties has to just I mean they just have to decide. Like I think what Captain Coach is saying is they have decided and they decided not for hyper competitive. I mean, you even talked about it how I mean you you've you've won

A lot in in Rivals and they haven't ever asked you about your takes on the game, your balance. I mean, they've never directly contacted you. I know that there's a lot of other games, a lot of other competitive games that do talk to their pros. They do talk to they actively talk to their pros. They they get their feedback. They get their insight. Netize has shown no interest in doing that. Now, will will that stay stay the way forever? I think I think in my opinion, it's important to keep an open door. Like you should always keep an open door. They might change their mind. GTA might steal all the casuals.

Who knows? But what what were we gonna say?

TrqstMe (01:34:10.598)
It actually changed. Like right on the day I posted the tweet about the patch note, we got a message that all partner teams now get access to an email where we can message them about the balancing. I made a very big email and all of the points that I would want added, like things like also like next time I will include like workshops and stuff, but right now I just included my balance patch, my subjective balance patch. So this actually has changed.

Right. So I don't know if that changes the view of the developers, what they see in the game, like maybe the direction they don't like as well, and they would want to take like a step aback or they they just want to collect data. All I said to them, collect as much data as you can, regardless of if you use it or not. They should go to partner teams, say we want your scrim codes, so we see what you ban, we see the matchups you play, and then regardless of what they do with the data, that's fine. But they should at least collect it.

They should collect the professional data the same way they should collect the casual data and then evaluate each one of them differently to learn much more about their game. Right? On what actually is played, why is it being played, and like actually have someone explaining them the then and then they can make the decision they want to do with the game. That's important. They need to make sure that it's their decision in the end.

Donatello (01:35:30.914)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:35:32.235)
But you just want them to make an informed one. Like you're you're not telling them what to decide, but you want you don't want them to be trying to do one thing and doing it wrong because they don't have enough knowledge. Like they yeah. Right.

TrqstMe (01:35:35.048)
Yes, I just want to inform them.

TrqstMe (01:35:41.779)
I again I I I I make the appel, I know this is a podcast, I can't replicate everything I said, but the entire document shows why some some ways in the game are broken fundamentally, why they are unfun for an experienced player like me. Obviously it's it's somewhat trip subjective, but depending on what patch Neddies would take, I would have an idea on what they could do, but in the end of the day it's their decision. Right? And I can only

train them with the logic that I I collected from playing professionally. Right? Where I know these are issues in the map, right? Fundamentally, they they break the game, right, in an unfun gameplay loop to me, and I can only share my experience. And what they do with it is is up to them. And I think everyone does the same. And I think that's valid for everyone to do. I think it's fine for like a captain coach to say this is a bad meta for this and this hero is unfun. It it's all valid and that's data to collect as well. But what they do with it is up to them and they need to choose the direction.

But it is right now it was the case that they came towards us and said, we want your input as partner teams, every professional we wanna s we wanna like have you speak about balance and then what they do with it is up to them. 'Cause I got like a PR response, right?

Coach Mills (01:36:56.993)
So if if if patch ten point five is is bad, you heard it here first, it's the pros' fault. I'm ski I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

CaptainCoach (01:37:03.28)
Ha ha ha.

TrqstMe (01:37:05.478)
It's also it's also a different topic, right? To to say there's there's a lot of like it's a very hostile environment to be a pro as well in Rivals. Because it's said to be such a casual it's it's said to be such a casual game, even though that's also subjective again. Right. It it it has like a very extremist community, I would say, as a whole.

Coach Mills (01:37:12.779)
No, I know I'm I I'm joking, yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:37:14.031)
yeah.

Donatello (01:37:16.696)
Mm mm.

Donatello (01:37:25.07)
Trust me, if if you if you've been winning tournaments and the game stays like this, why would you want it changed so bad if you're winning with your team and you keep on winning?

CaptainCoach (01:37:35.216)
That's great question.

TrqstMe (01:37:36.937)
Be because again it's not about guys like this is we don't play for the money, we don't play for any of that, right? I I said this in the I said this in the past, I declined offers from from orcs that wanted to pay twice my salary, to stay on a team that was there to win. I I would I know that regardless of how the game changes, I would be the best. But right now I have no fun playing the game as it I I d I do have somewhat fun, but I I know I could increase my amount of fun, which would like

Donatello (01:37:44.162)
No, I agree.

Donatello (01:37:59.224)
Okay.

TrqstMe (01:38:06.814)
be much better, right, as a job. Like if you if you think if your job is to play the game, right, and I do this full time because I'm passionate about winning, I'm passionate about competing, I'm passionate about playing the game I love and I see the game I love being tainted with things that I feel like it shouldn't be there and like make the game unfun I have a right to say this is not good for the game. Right or this is not good for for my liking to of the game. Right again, subjective. So yeah. Yeah.

Donatello (01:38:08.714)
Mm. Yeah, way more passion. Hundred percent.

Donatello (01:38:31.712)
Yeah. No, I agree. I just wanted to it was like a a fun question 'cause it you know, I'm like, well, you know, you're doing so good in the current meta and and how the w the way the game's played. So why like as a pro player would you want to change i if you keep on winning with this meta? But I agree with the the fun part because I it's my job too, you know. So I I last season I had a little less fun, which involves like less hours streaming, blah blah blah. So

I c I I like I understand your point of view from from that point, but I just thought it was a funny question to ask because as like as someone who competes, well, if you're like doing so good, why? But makes sense.

Coach Mills (01:39:03.233)
It should it should mean the most coming. Yeah, yeah. No.

TrqstMe (01:39:11.1)
Mm. Yeah, it's fine.

Coach Mills (01:39:11.359)
It it should mean the most coming from trust me, 'cause I mean he is winning so much and he wants the changes. So like like it's e it's it would be easy for like a like a bottom team being like, Get get us into turn us into this meta. Make this here, make this niche arrow meta.

Donatello (01:39:17.164)
Exactly, yeah.

Donatello (01:39:22.654)
Mm. I change everything, yeah, exactly.

TrqstMe (01:39:27.752)
Yeah, but the reason why we are at the place we are is because we're very adaptable, right? So like it wouldn't matter what patch you would take, right? It always means that you're adaptable, you invest your time, you invest your passion, you have the skill sort of understanding on how to improve, especially, right? By going down the same loop, asking yourself questions, reviewing yourself, right? Going down the steps, seeing, okay, this is a matchup issue, this is a gameplay issue, this is a here we should have done this, here we should have done that. All of that is like

what leads into this, so it wouldn't be necessarily that I would do worse on a different patch. I I can like confidently say that. Right. So I it would merely be to increase my own enjoyment, yes.

Donatello (01:40:08.322)
I see.

Coach Mills (01:40:09.239)
So we're gonna change gears a little bit. I wanna ask y'all some different types of questions. I I know we talked about we talked about

Wanna ask you, Donnie, first. so a change that happened in in in this season is now there's no double bands, which means there's always gonna be six unique bands every single game unless someone falls asleep and doesn't ban anything. personally, I feel like every time we get more bands, the game feels better. The more like every single time when we went from two to three to no double, I felt like every time there's been an improvement.

I'm I'm curious if you agree with that. And also, do you think that there is a diminishing returns? Cause I I I was thinking, hey, there's gonna be too much bands. And I was like, I feel great on six. Would I feel even better on eight? Would I feel amazing on ten? well, like like I like I'm curious what you think about the bands and and the state of the game in regards to the bands.

Donatello (01:41:00.056)
Ha ha

Donatello (01:41:06.718)
I think it's this is pretty like like everyone's kind of happy about the bands I think in the community, including myself. I I think I think the six different bands is is pretty good for the game. I mean w I I'm just I'm sh thinking here. Or were we on three bands on season nine? Like three three, but like we could double ban? Right? Okay. 'Cause I I was kinda lost here.

Coach Mills (01:41:27.957)
We get double, yeah. Yeah. And then I think it was six point five or w when w when did we get when did we go up from four to six? I don't remember. But there was a we were on we were on just four for the longest time.

Donatello (01:41:37.998)
Yeah, I don't remember either, that's why I'm asking. But

But yeah, for the most part, six bands is really good, especially in in high ELO from like my experience is that you know, we'll get the same players over and over in in some games. So sometimes having like a a one trick banned out, either if it's like on my team or on their team, feels like great and so is banning like the rest of the meta. I think like

I mean i it's probably different from casuals, but I guess the casuals are also happy because they can ban like a character they hate playing into. Like one more, I guess. So like if they're like, I really don't want to play against Penny, well I'll just ban Penny and I can tell my team well, that's like my ban. If like two people agree, let's say we'll do like two people agree on what ban, two people agree, two people agree, and everyone's happy on the team. but in ILO it's really fun because most of the time people would handshake on what's meta and

What to ban, right? Even when we had like four bands, people would be like, Alright, we're we'll ban Gambit and we'll ban like I don't know what was Meta at the time, but it doesn't really matter. So now instead of like, yeah, like Gambit Elsa, like a a lot of times people would ban like these two, right? But like it would do like only two bands for the rest of the games. So like another like really strong character would take over. And if you had like whoever was the better player on that character would kind of lead you to the win. But now it's like, alright, well, we're banning Elsa.

Coach Mills (01:42:45.431)
Probably also jinker.

Donatello (01:43:03.022)
you guys can ban Dino, we'll ban Gambit, then the other team will ban Mentis, and now like alright, like everyone's kind of happy. Like honestly, the six bands is great. I don't I if you disagree with the the six ban and the not the double ban, I like I I don't know what like w what your argument would be, seriously, because it it just makes the game like more fair and people are like I'm happy to ban like the band characters. Eight yeah now n

Coach Mills (01:43:24.983)
Do do you think eight? Do you think A would be too much? Do you think A would make it even better? Like if if if this is better, then i is that even more better or is it like

Donatello (01:43:34.208)
Now we're on a fine line where it would be like you ban four characters. I mean, can we could we do we even have eight supports? Like could we ban like eight supports? That would like you know what I mean? Like I think I think I

Coach Mills (01:43:38.669)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:43:42.327)
Ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (01:43:43.0)
I mean that would be fucking the most fun game I could have possibly imagined if every support just a a no support game would be hilariously fun. But then it'd be like Dino. It would be it would be but it but like I think that'd be kinda fun, but it it might get wacky. Maybe maybe it has to scale with the roster.

Donatello (01:43:48.478)
No support? Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:43:49.024)
Mm.

Donatello (01:43:53.272)
But see that that's I think I think riv Rivals taking Dino heals, yeah, I guess.

CaptainCoach (01:43:58.817)
Iron fist Iron Fist

Donatello (01:44:04.77)
Mm-hmm. No, but I think Rival is is taking that into like like they're taking it in like if if if they're releasing like I don't know, if we're if we're at like fourteen supports then maybe we'll have like eight bands. But if we have like what's it called? Like right now I think we have I don't even know I don't even know how much, but they have to make the game balance where you can't just ban out like a h an entire role. You know, that would be like that would be completely stupid. Yeah, it would be fun, but like let's say now

Coach Mills (01:44:28.425)
That would be so funny though.

Donatello (01:44:34.058)
you have a team and you and you're in rank and you roll like six DPS players. Well, all right, let them bend Gambit, we'll ban like another support, they'll ban like Mentus, and now there's like two supports left in the game and then we left a have like a way higher chance to win. It would like stupid. If there's eight bands currently with the amount of characters, I think that would be like there's a fine line where it we it would become like too much bands. Like way too much bands.

CaptainCoach (01:44:56.27)
I think the more bands definitely feels good, but with so many buffs to heroes that I personally thought didn't really need it. I I think despite getting more of the top heroes out, I still think this patch overall feels worse and I'd definitely be for eight or I honestly I'd probably support ten bands and I think that'd be a good spot. Everybody

Donatello (01:45:16.3)
Nah. I ca I can't I can't agree with that. Ten bands would be like that's ridiculous. Like even in pro play they get like what five, trust me? Maybe is it six now? Six or five?

Coach Mills (01:45:17.471)
That really.

CaptainCoach (01:45:19.843)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (01:45:25.372)
I don't like I don't like the band system pro play. I feel like it is very dys this dystopian to like casuals because i it's exactly the reason why it doesn't feel the same. As you said, like right now it's not worth to play ranked because the bands are different and like the entire matchup you never mirror in pro play. There's almost never a mirror. In in ranked you always mirror. And I think that's something they should change as a whole and like make pro play

Donatello (01:45:44.215)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (01:45:51.292)
be more approachable to casuals by giving the same conditions on the map, right? By having like the same band system, by having the same the same stuff. Right. I see that it's it's fun necessarily to do that, but it's just very bad.

Donatello (01:45:59.606)
Okay, so

Coach Mills (01:46:04.049)
Would you want would you want the proband into ranked or

Donatello (01:46:05.272)
So do you what yeah, do you give the probs or do you give the rank like the pro bands? Or like vice versa?

TrqstMe (01:46:11.458)
it's hard to say. It like I do wanna like this is like again, right? This this totally depends. I do think what you said like earlier, I there's like a few arguments to say that are bad band wise, right? Like why having bands is bad in general. Stream sniping is one of them. Right? That's a like it it invites a win condition to stream snipe, it invites a win condition to tracking people, banning out people. That's a win condition. Okay? That is a skill set to acquire if you wanna min-max winning in rivals.

Donatello (01:46:27.094)
Mm-hmm.

Donatello (01:46:34.444)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (01:46:41.074)
You you try to talk your team, you know, you say okay they have Iron Fist OTP. It is, right? It it increases your odds of winning. If you break it if no no no. I'm s I'm saying it is it increases your odds of winning if you track, it increases your odds of winning by saying okay, they have this hero on the on the team. We we ban for this matchup, we play di this thing. Of course for casuals, maybe more unrealistic

Donatello (01:46:41.134)
Skill set. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean

Coach Mills (01:46:45.015)
We all have Donnie on the second monitor. No, I'm just kidding.

Donatello (01:46:51.457)
Legit.

TrqstMe (01:47:04.712)
Right, it would be like the win condition that you just ban out an OTP or whatever by knowing okay, they have this guy on the team, I use a tracker, I use that kind of stuff. And that's something that that is invited because of bands, right? Is it is it that big of an issue? Sometimes. It is that big of an issue, right, right now because it is because we have this band phase, okay? But overall it it would be fine. Like I I don't think that is that that bad to be honest, we have. Like it is a it is a

Donatello (01:47:27.502)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (01:47:34.012)
Hit your take. Yeah, yeah.

Donatello (01:47:34.51)
'Cause I'm I'm a streamer, right? Like I get target banned. I'll get like I'll like triple ban some games. But like to me I I still think like obviously it's annoying. Like I'll I'll get pissed when that happens, but I s

TrqstMe (01:47:42.175)
The the main issue the main issue that I have with bands, and that is also subjective again, right? Like i you can say depending on where you draw more fun from the game, either you will have hero mastery is completely forgotten. There's almost no valid reason to say, Okay, you're only playing one hero and and like saying okay, you wanna be the best at that hero, you play like I don't know what is a good example, Spider Man.

Right, you play only Spider Man, right? And you wanna be the best because of this band system, it is not a good thing to do. Because if you wanna be a professional, you're taught early that matchups matter so much because of one ban or one another ban, depending on what enables Spider Man, right? If you ban that out, now you weaken the entire team, so flexing is more of a valid thing. Is that a good thing? It depends.

Donatello (01:48:17.261)
Mm.

TrqstMe (01:48:37.928)
Right, I think it is. For me, it makes the game more enjoyable, having people learn more heroes because it's required. But for some it might not be. So c casuals knowing, okay, you can't just play one character for forty hours and actively get punished for that, right? By having people ban you in the future, by having people like track you and use all of that stuff to to negate you, by making it harder for you in your way of path to pro because you didn't invest into a proper hero pool and then getting banned out in tournaments.

Donatello (01:48:39.34)
Mm-hmm.

TrqstMe (01:49:04.594)
Like this is all this is all happening, this is all real. So for that that would be the argument against it. But that's not a for me it's fine. Like it it's valid to have the bands.

Donatello (01:49:11.83)
Okay. Would you add like protects to ranked?

TrqstMe (01:49:17.566)
Yeah, that's a good question. I I do think it's valid. But the issue is bro, imagine having your plaid teammates coordinate protect, bro. It's G man. You just you just like and like if you have like the like many people don't know, right? Like there's a lot of casuals in chat, but like the way pro bands work is you ban for the opposite team. That's why I like I I scraped this topic. Like you don't ban for your for your own team, you ban for the opposite team, but you save for yourself.

Coach Mills (01:49:26.601)
Everyone's pretending they're hero. No no they're yeah.

Donatello (01:49:28.514)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:49:29.208)
Yeah

Donatello (01:49:42.538)
Mm. The global, yeah, you've been

TrqstMe (01:49:45.81)
Now imagine you apply that to like casuals with like six people different opinion, ten seconds to twos complete complete GG

Coach Mills (01:49:50.071)
I mean if you're if you're in Diamond, are you really gonna protect you're gonna protect your Elsa teammate hover? Like are do you really trust your random fucking Elsa teammate hover? Like they they might

Donatello (01:49:51.468)
Yeah.

Ha ha.

TrqstMe (01:49:57.512)
Yeah, yeah, that would be the question, right? And then you protect and then you protect Elsa and you have like a Spider Man OTP and then then they just have Elsa against your Spider Man, it's complete GG in the matchup. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:50:05.472)
the worst part he starts feeding yeah

Coach Mills (01:50:06.763)
Or you or you y or you protect your Spider Man teammate and they go fucking five and twelve or some shit like that and you're like you're like this GG, go next or whatever, some bullshit. okay

TrqstMe (01:50:11.741)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:50:17.635)
I don't see that.

TrqstMe (01:50:17.766)
It would it maybe it would be fun though. Maybe it would be fun. I I I see it, but I I also think like in in general a a big issue I have with bands as well is the the additional waiting time. I think that's very valid. Because a lot of the time people do zone out during bands, right? I mean how many times like I most of the time I play Kovacs during it because rank doesn't give me as much as a professional because Hero Pool is valued more, right? Like it doesn't matter

Donatello (01:50:21.346)
I think it just it would just be too long.

Coach Mills (01:50:23.947)
No, it might be long, yeah.

Donatello (01:50:25.57)
Yeah.

Donatello (01:50:34.625)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

TrqstMe (01:50:44.808)
how much I play ranked in the season and like how OP Magneto is. If I have to play like a different hero, like rotate heroes on like five different heroes, then it doesn't matter and I would rather play scrims with a different band system where entire different matchups are played, there's almost no reason for me to play ranked. So most of time I just take the additional time to practice. And that's not a very good way to handle the game. Cause if you actually want to win, you need to be Daring band phase. You need to s because it's a it's a win condition, right? Band phase is a win condition in the game.

Donatello (01:51:11.192)
Yeah, for sure.

TrqstMe (01:51:11.89)
So like if you're there you can like talk to the team, what do we want to play? What is the map good for? Lada yada yada, what do we banned for? What what like people do we have in the team, you know? I if you apply all of that your win chances would ri would raise, but like I obviously don't deal with it because not worth. So like for me this is an issue in the band system necessarily. But it is an issue with pro play more than it is with ranked.

Donatello (01:51:27.222)
Yeah, nobody doing that in rank.

Coach Mills (01:51:33.731)
another thing I wanted to bring up. So two different things for both of y'all. So we've we've floated this conversation a lot on this pod. Roll a roll queue system or a roll lock system. A roll queue system would be something like you select your role before you enter in a ranked match. You can swap, but it's trying to pair you up two to two. You're allowed to swap within the match. Of course, this typically would create like more balanced teams. More often you'll have two tanks, two DPS, two supports.

But it doesn't fix the triple support problem. Like people can still swap to triple support. Then there's a role lock system, you know, separate rank, separate SR. We've seen this in Overwatch and other games where it's like UQ for tank, you Q for support, U Q for DPS. I'm curious what your thoughts are on both of these systems. I'm also curious, trust me, about your thoughts on a role lock system in pro play specifically, where triple support is probably at its worst and it's consistently been at its worst. but but if you d only put it in the pro system, of course that wouldn't

Create a massive disconnect between the normal game two, so right. So

TrqstMe (01:52:32.624)
It would again make ranked useless. That's just it. It would make rank useless for pros. You know, and then you would have like mostly Yeah. It already is like this by the way, that most pros feel ranked is useless because of this reason that like the matchups are different, you know?

Donatello (01:52:35.458)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:52:39.913)
Right. So y you would have to match you would have to match it. But so what's what's just opinion on both?

Coach Mills (01:52:52.587)
What what what is what are y'all s what is your thoughts? What well Donnie first you like what is your thoughts on like a Roku system or a Rolock system or

Donatello (01:52:56.343)
Okay, I'll start.

Donatello (01:53:00.62)
I mean my my my opinion might be like like different than like what should be I mean I it's an opinion so it's mine, whatever. But you know, I stream, so I think like I I don't want longer queues 'cause I'm already like waiting in queue. I like playing. Chat likes to see me play. I enjoy playing. Would roll queue or preferred role queue make this longer? Most likely. So like is this good for me? Probably not. But for like the

Like the game like quality, I wouldn't want role queue. Like strict role cu rogue because now you're like i if you're on role queue are you locked to your character, then that

Coach Mills (01:53:39.957)
so so roll roll you're talking roll lock. Rolock would be you Q your Yes, that's Rolock. Yes, yes. And and you would have a different ranked.

Donatello (01:53:43.084)
Roadlock would like two two two then. Like automatically. It would lock you. Then then like trust me says it ruins pr it ruins pro play because then pro play

Coach Mills (01:53:50.401)
Well you would have to you would have to do for both. You'd have to do for pro and ranked probably. You would have to you would have to roll lock it for both.

TrqstMe (01:53:53.256)
Yeah, you you would have to do it for both. Yeah.

Donatello (01:53:56.206)
Okay, so the pro is also locked in two to two.

Like okay, as much as I did I as much as I dislike the triple tank, triple support, like even GOATs, whatever, I think it gives like a new look on the game, and I think locking the game to a two to two kinda goes against like creative creativity. And I'll take the example from Yeah We Lost, who I I I I'm just like using them as an example because I think they're the first team, like maybe I'm wrong, to have played they played one tank

three DPS and two supports in an official tournament, which I don't think we've seen before. And their comp was like super weird. To Okay, Earth explained it? Okay, actually yeah, it's not it's not as weird maybe, but the characters they picked were different. They they were playing Psylock, Gore, Spider-Man, Angela. Like single tank Angela, I think that was definitely like the first time we've seen that though. Like probably we've probably seen like three tanks, but one tank was probably like mag or like a super like strong like main lane tank or whatever. But

TrqstMe (01:54:35.262)
Twenty twenty five heretics played it. They played Punisher Storm and Jeff yeah.

Donatello (01:54:57.716)
them playing that was like super fun to watch as a viewer. That was and I think I talked to myself and also from a lot of like the people who were watching I was watch partying with my chat and a lot of people were like, Wow, this is like this is like really fun to watch and the other team was playing I think they were playing a triple support, like even triple tank or something, which you know, and yet we lost one against that that team on that map, like playing some super like out of the ordinary cum. So I think if you limit the the people to play like two two two

Well, it'll be mostly like either like the playstyle becomes like super like like fixed. Like either you're playing like hard dive, you're playing like hybrid, or you're playing like straight front to back with like a normal like Bucky Elsa like combo and it's gonna be like probably like mirror every game and then it's whoever makes like a single tiny mistake that's like punished. so I think like it just it just ruins cr creativity all around all around the board.

CaptainCoach (01:55:48.494)
I

CaptainCoach (01:55:53.293)
Yeah, I I totally agree with you. That's that's why I've always suggested you pick a main roll and you pick an off roll, so you'll only ever be locked to two rolls. That way the combinations of potential comps are pretty pretty high, but you'll still be able to more or less at least never be pushed off of to to like whatever your worst role is. And I think that would increase game quality. but I'll also didn't they run a one healer comp? Yeah, we lost, or am I c or I saw right.

Donatello (01:56:11.726)
Mm.

TrqstMe (01:56:19.624)
Yeah, they tried as well.

Donatello (01:56:20.034)
I think they they they like walked out yeah, they walked out on spawn with like one support. I don't know if that was like a miscommunication or if they tried that, but i either way, I'm not sure. But yeah, they did.

CaptainCoach (01:56:25.622)
Okay. 'Cause I Right.

Coach Mills (01:56:29.739)
What about what about you trust me? 'Cause I know like I mean, this would instantly solve the triple support problem that I think you you know. But is the cost too great?

TrqstMe (01:56:36.424)
Yeah, but again, right it's not really that the cost is to create the game would change. It would it be a fundamental change. And then again the c the cost would be would people be happy with that change?

Right. That's the that's the big question in the room, the same way that the developers has to eva have to evaluate that, right? They they're evaluating that right now, as we speak, right? They they have someone talk about that I I do believe that these guys are trying to make changes, right? In the right way, they they think is right. So they they discuss it this this of course. Is it always with the right information they have and like the right data? Probably not, right? But like it's hard. But for me those changes

have sense but I don't like them as well. I do believe it would limit creativity. One thing it would increase though is it would increase it would it it would decrease the value of matchups as a whole because one playstyle more playstyles would be open now. Right? So I I I do think that would be the the the positive for the con, right? Where now you lose out on creativity but at least you get more focus on winning the mirror matchup or by

playing the right the right hero the right way kind of like the the way you play the hero gets increased because you can't cheese pla you can't you can't cheese matchups anymore, you know, by going like a different composition and counter swapping permanently. You know, now you now you can't like now you can't have one guy like completely cheese the entire matchup, you know, if you're somewhat roll locked.

CaptainCoach (01:57:51.312)
Like more efforts too.

Coach Mills (01:57:58.103)
Let's play bunker. Let's yeah, let's let's do this run.

Coach Mills (01:58:07.713)
what about a role preferred system or like a like a like a role Q system where you you t say what your preference is and it tries to it loosely matches you in two two two, which, you know, technically is kind of trying to soften force a meta, but you don't have to adhere to that a hundred percent.

Donatello (01:58:23.362)
Yeah, like you're not locked to it. Yeah. I mean, that would be like roll queue is definitely like hard lock would be like a hard no from me, but like this could like I I would like test it out. You know what I mean? I would test it out for like

TrqstMe (01:58:23.506)
I think that's valid. I think that's valid.

TrqstMe (01:58:36.414)
But Donatello would be sitting forty minutes in queue. It's true. That will be the result. That will be the result. Yeah, yeah. It would be, yeah.

Coach Mills (01:58:37.375)
I mean you're just gonna have to wait longer, but if you're saying I'll I'll play DPS or tank, then like when you load into a game, it's like you're expected to play this role. And then it's like, you know, the

Donatello (01:58:39.374)
Yeah. Yeah, probably, yeah, exactly.

TrqstMe (01:58:47.43)
I mean most of the people that play the game are DPS, you know, that's just a reality thing. Yeah. Yeah.

TrqstMe (01:58:58.868)
There's like a there was like a thing in in Overwatch, like the priority ticket ticket drama, bro. There was like a complete catastrophe, bro. People would get to like a ticket and would still be 40 minutes in queue. One thing that Rivals has that Overwatch has never implemented, which is such a good thing, is to be able to play multiple servers. Getting that like lower amount of queue, like I'm I cannot even lie, I cannot it's imp impossible to queue you. Right? You cannot find a game. If you queue a U, right

Coach Mills (01:59:02.972)
yeah, like okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (01:59:17.801)
yeah.

TrqstMe (01:59:27.942)
You you can find a game. So having that option to get like reduced Q time is extremely good for the entire community. Right? Because now even with a lower player base, you don't run into that frustration of not finding games. Now the quality of the games is a different topic, but like the fact that you're finding games is now

Donatello (01:59:47.608)
Ha ha.

CaptainCoach (01:59:47.723)
b before the earlier today the podcast started, I asked X w a questions that they wanted to ask you, trust me. And apologies, Donnie. I didn't we didn't know you were coming on until today, so I didn't ask any questions for you. But one of the overwhelming responses I got that people wanted your take on was

Donatello (02:00:03.275)
No, no worries. Of course, of course.

CaptainCoach (02:00:15.502)
the matchmaking in the game, not necessarily the role key, but ac actually how the matchmaking works. What are your thoughts on it? Do you think it's effective? Do you think it's the best type of matchmaking you could have for like true ranked competitive integrity? Do you think it needs work?

TrqstMe (02:00:31.957)
Like you mean like who you can queue with and stuff. There's certainly ways to abuse the matchmaking. But if you just mean like like what does matchmaking mean in this case? Matchmaking is just like the the algorithm design behind finding games. Or or what is the question right now? Or like or like even also how the game is played and who's winning on how much impact you have individually on like is that also included or is it because for me it's i I I could talk about it right now and it would

Coach Mills (02:00:48.555)
Yeah, and then the amount of points you gain and yeah.

TrqstMe (02:01:01.567)
feel like it would be right to add to this question or is it like purely like algorithm wise? Because I don't think the algorithm is written bad. One thing that is definitely bad is the fact that duo queuing is so superior to solo queuing. Because the way the algorithm is written, you can only like the you will find games much quicker duo queuing than you do solo queuing. That's that's a thing. Like you get actively punished for solo queuing

CaptainCoach (02:01:08.286)
CaptainCoach (02:01:26.245)
Do you

Yeah, I I I agree with that. D do you think that anything other than a completely random matchmaking system is in the best interest of someone whose primary goal is ranked competitive integrity?

Because I don't think the matchmaking is completely random. I mean, obviously there's exceptions to that, right? With you know, getting the queue times low, so we maybe we go a little lower rank than maybe it would right, or or go to a different region. But pure pure randomness to me in a true ELO system, which I don't think is used here, is the only way you can have a a truly fair game. Do you do you think do you agree with that? And do you think that's what's happening? 'Cause I think that's

Kinda what was the the general sentiment with the comments I was getting.

TrqstMe (02:02:23.099)
this is a very deep topic, right? If you if you truly break it down, like the problem is the bands give another random factor to it. So like regardless of how you balance the matchmaking, it will still feel random when you have like let's say you you play like your eternity player, okay? And now that you play that one game with your main character, which is in Donatello case, you like he plays like Bucky, Elsa and Wolf, right? And all these three characters are banned.

And he's the highest rated player in the lobby in his team, and he's playing another highest rated player in the lobby, his value will decrease. So there will be a s a certain level of randomness added. So I don't really think the matchmaking itself is at fault for the way it is right now. It it's like I don't really think it's like this. Because the randomness still comes from people like saying, I I don't want to play two tanks, I don't want to play two supports.

I I don't wanna play I don't wanna swap my hero in this bad matchup, you know, you see it, he doesn't, right? Like there's still this randomness coming from no matter how the raiding tweaking is happening between people. Like I I do think the game is is using a a way that is like somewhat balancing like the raiding comparison. Like they will have like two celestials, you will also have two celestials. they will have like two two eternities and two eternities and then it's like balanced around that. Or but

There's definitely ways to tweak the the system. You know, one way is to do a queue, you know, 'cause it gives you an unfair advantage and it also gives you a faster queue time most of the time.

CaptainCoach (02:03:54.213)
I I I learned recently that the matchmaking algorithm that NetEase develops, I'm drawing a blank on the name, maybe s someone can help me out. Actually and other games use this too, actually puts everybody queuing up at a given time in a given set of ranks, you're put in a pool, and when you queue up for a ranked match, you are potentially

I now it's not confirmed whether or not Marvel Rivals uses this technology, but it's probably I would say at least somewhat likely. You are put in a pool of people who aren't even out of their game yet. So you you could potentially be getting matched with someone who's in a game who the system deems as likely to queue up because that would be a perceived better quality match for whoever they have you against. And I

Just throwing it out there, do you think something like that is i is in the game? I mean

TrqstMe (02:04:54.133)
That's that sounds interesting, I can't lie. Like I I I don't know if that's in the game or not, to be honest. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:04:59.28)
Let me see what I can find out what it's called real quick. Just

Coach Mills (02:05:00.799)
I mean it w it would make sense just because you wanna ke I mean you want matches to be as quick as possible, right? So you would you don't want like I mean it it it

TrqstMe (02:05:08.469)
Yeah but it would also mean that like other people would lack out. But yeah, it it probably expects like that's that's probably a way to calculate the waiting time. I don't know if this actually like in includes the matchmaking like itself, but maybe it includes like the potential waiting time.

Donatello (02:05:09.79)
Yeah.

Donatello (02:05:16.974)
Mm-hmm.

Donatello (02:05:22.766)
I don't know if it makes sense 'cause then people who like how how do they know if you're queuing another game after the one you just played? Like it that it would go like an in un in unlimited like loop. Like it

CaptainCoach (02:05:32.152)
Well it's it's pr it's all predictive.

TrqstMe (02:05:32.295)
Yeah, I mean you can track it with an you can track it with an algorithm, right? So i it is somewhat true yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:05:37.516)
And and and to your point

Coach Mills (02:05:38.421)
And it they know it knows your streaming, like how how many games you typically play every stream, don't

TrqstMe (02:05:41.651)
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

CaptainCoach (02:05:41.806)
Well, they they they have stats I'm sure on everybody's data and you talk about you

Donatello (02:05:46.058)
I mean that's yeah, probably.

TrqstMe (02:05:47.871)
Yeah, but I I also do think it's it's not that deep and I don't think it would change a lot personally. Like it no matter what system you you you take, like I I do think I I can see it's valid, you know, to like think about. It's like a it's like a nice little conspiracy theory to be honest. or like maybe not even, maybe it's the truth, you know, like it it but the thing is it it doesn't matter right now because the the for me the matchmaking isn't the biggest problem, it's the the people that do something with the matchmaking kind of.

CaptainCoach (02:05:52.068)
Sure.

Donatello (02:05:52.918)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:06:03.031)
Ha ha.

CaptainCoach (02:06:13.264)
Fair enough. I that's

TrqstMe (02:06:13.493)
Right, because the game is too random based on the matchmaking. And there's too many ways outside of your performance that depend on who's winning. So that makes the matchmaking feel bad for people. It's more like the association of n feeling helpless in the game no matter how hard you carry you you feel, you know? Like that's kinda what makes people unhappy with the matchmaker, I think.

CaptainCoach (02:06:32.9)
I've always valued your opinions, trust me, because I I think you more than anyone we've ever talked to on this podcast tend to believe in the ability to carry through means outside of just playing the game, either being personable, either being liked, saying the right thing, doing the right thing to get people to do what they want. I wanted to know if you if you had any more to say on that. And Donatello, I I also wanted to hear

like of your mentality when it comes to that as a DPS player. Cause just this this season has been my first season playing DPS and it's been a learning curve for sure. And yeah, I'm just just curious to hear your thoughts on just like getting people to do what you want and being like a good teammate on the role that everybody wants to play. Right.

Donatello (02:07:24.142)
Okay.

TrqstMe (02:07:25.095)
I wanted you to go first 'cause I wanna have like the 'cause I did like in a I did actually like do my research as well on this. Like I spent a lot of time thinking about what to do.

CaptainCoach (02:07:27.781)
Ha ha.

Donatello (02:07:33.121)
Okay.

CaptainCoach (02:07:33.296)
I'm interested in this. A little psychology.

Donatello (02:07:35.853)
Okay, well I'm not gonna lie, bro, like I'm like some I'm I don't think I'm the perfect example to answer that question. 'cause like I I know like people in the rank some of them don't like me. like I I'm super talkative, I'm super like like I'll try hard but then some games I'll also like crash out and like, you know

Coach Mills (02:07:57.196)
Yeah, imagine trying.

CaptainCoach (02:08:00.372)
Ha ha ha.

Donatello (02:08:01.657)
But like I I'll never like stop trying fully. Like I'm always like trying to win. But like some games are obviously like, okay, we lost. Like go next and it's fine. And like low key like the game's lost. Like it happens and it's fine.

Coach Mills (02:08:13.035)
That was d that was the first that was the first time I ever met you, by the way. A long time ago. Do you remember? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You crashed out on me because I that yeah, yeah, no, because I had Maggle and they cloaked it. And I was and I was I was waiting for the Star Little and you're like, you're like Maggot the cloak. Yeah, I you crashed out on me. I was like, I was okay, GG's. I'm like

Donatello (02:08:18.487)
And right?

TrqstMe (02:08:20.104)
I had coach Mills GG so

CaptainCoach (02:08:31.896)
I

Donatello (02:08:32.62)
Yeah, but it's like okay, it's it's right that's see that's not like a crash out. That's like me trying to like win and like being super like passionate and like to me that was like the right play probably. But like sometimes that'll happen still in my rank games. Which is why like sometimes like people are like upset. But honestly, I I think I've been doing good j a good job of like taking a step back of like the the the actual crash outs, right? obviously some people are like are like more shy and like when you raise the tone for like a play, they're

Coach Mills (02:08:39.039)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Donatello (02:09:01.56)
You're taking it like super personal, where it's like obviously not what I mean. I just want to win the game, bro. I don't care about you and who you are like personally. I'm not crashing out because it's you. I'm I'm like, I want to win. But obviously that's like a I mean sa I mean, I know some people do that. I know some people do that. But like some people, you know, they'll get like super defensive and be like, wow, well like does does he not like me? Like, no, bro, like I I just want you to magolt the the cloak ult. You know what I mean? And like I I'm taking your example. I'm tak

Coach Mills (02:09:04.885)
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:09:11.66)
I do it because I don't like them as a person and I wish ill will on them and their family.

Coach Mills (02:09:13.749)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:09:18.948)
Ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (02:09:23.383)
What do you mean?

What the fuck? No

CaptainCoach (02:09:27.768)
Yeah. I'm the same way, bro.

Donatello (02:09:29.87)
I'm taking an example all over again, but

Coach Mills (02:09:32.907)
I would have whipped it anyways. Okay.

CaptainCoach (02:09:34.114)
I so I I I was trying you talk about being a good team and I was I was going to peek Donatello's stream 'cause I I was trying to get some some gore info and I and I get there and he's on mag, bro. I'm like, what a what is this? Not that de it's not a D PS player, but then you know, it's just like it makes sense, right?

Coach Mills (02:09:47.169)
Ha ha.

Donatello (02:09:52.874)
Yeah. But to to like wrap up around the questions, like yeah, obviously the way you approach people in game and treat people in ranked, I know for the for the most part people like someone who like is super nice and like will like babysit them and like, you you wanna you wanna play you wanna play you wanna play Jeff

Coach Mills (02:10:12.501)
Ha ha ha

CaptainCoach (02:10:13.456)
Ha ha ha.

Donatello (02:10:16.216)
You wanna play Jeff in in my rank game while Jeff is like getting mag rocks like the fifth time in a row, trying to eat somebody and hasn't like taken a single people out of the map. Well, hey, you do you, buddy. Keep playing Jeff bro. I I love you. Like people people like that, but but like you know, I I I that's not how I am. Like obviously if he wants to play Jeff bro and like fuck man, like play Jeff bro, but like I want to win the game more than you want to play Jeff. So like sometimes there's gonna be like a clash.

Coach Mills (02:10:25.655)
you raised them up? I got you. Okay.

CaptainCoach (02:10:28.568)
There's a guidance counselor Donatello right here.

Coach Mills (02:10:36.649)
Ha ha ha.

Donatello (02:10:44.408)
But it it's part of the game and like obviously you probably like I mean tr I I'm excited to see trust me what what he's about to say 'cause he said he did he did research. I mean positive like PMA, like the p is that the word peop positive mental attitude or whatever. Probably wins you more game overall, I'd say. And I'd be curious to like have like a stat about that. But I don't think it will have that. Unless trust me that's some crazy fucking math

CaptainCoach (02:10:56.633)
Mm-hmm.

TrqstMe (02:10:56.842)
Yeah, PMA

Coach Mills (02:11:08.609)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:11:08.766)
I actually right now I I mean you guys know that I I run like a coaching academy, right? And I I do actually talk about these topics because I talk about everything that increases winning, right? Using tracker as well, this included as well, 'cause it is a win condition, right? Banning out the opponent team. But also how you play proper mental gymnastics, player psychology wise, you know, with your team, to not make them mentally defensive when you tell them to swap a hero and stuff, that's also win condition, right? The same way I how I how we say right matchup is so important in the game.

Donatello (02:11:22.99)
Mm.

TrqstMe (02:11:38.634)
If you run a unwinnable matchup.

Right? Like quote unquote, like where the conditions are so much weaker for your team to even move on on the map and it's it's very hard to break the choke because they just have every cooldown ready for for you engage and you can't really like fight back 'cause they like it just doesn't logically can work, right? 'Cause you're playing like a like a chess game with like less pieces and in in a mirror, right? Of course you can win, right? Always you can like rely on the enemy doing mistakes, but calculative wise you you should be losing. And

That's like a a thing and if the matchup is this important then

Knowing how to like talk to the team in a mental gymnastic way where you don't make them defensive, you get them to cooperate more often because you make them confident around yourself with new with your knowledge. That's a skill set and that wins you a lot of games. So it is very true. Like the best example everyone knows is Saiper. Right? He's the best ranked player in the game because he actually cares. He he sits there, he he micromanages his team in a way that doesn't make them like hurt or defensive about them, right? He makes them feel good even with the the way he's playing, with the way he's coming, because he's good in the game.

game, right? He provides a lot in the band phase, he's talking early, he's talking nicely. As as you say, all of these things are like micro interactions that wire in the brain different with people, and then the repetition of the fact that you meet the same players in the same rank will now make you permanently confident around that person. That is a that is a lot of invest of mental attitude, but it does certainly increase your chances of winning by a lot. Now the problem is it it does me this is like a real life example as well. Or like in our team as well, you know

TrqstMe (02:13:15.089)
I an example I'm not as good talking to ranked teammates often. I do end up being toxic way too often. I try to be a lot better, right? But in my team in Navi an example, I try to activate them through asking questions, right? Like the way how an IGL should like go on about. I sit down, I write down what I have to say, you know, what is like important to say as an IGL, like to may have to have like somewhat of a blueprint, so I have like a behaviour

Donatello (02:13:21.986)
Ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (02:13:22.519)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:13:42.561)
pr b blueprint so I know how to like enable and activate the team in a way and this is something that is such a skill set even in low rank. You know and obviously in low rank it's a bit different since you don't meet the same people all the time. But like there's a few keywords, there's a few phrases you can say to vastly increase the odds of like someone listening to you and not listening to you and like collecting that data for yourself when it worked and when it doesn't is a skill to develop that is so important.

Because it does increase the odds of winning by a lot. Like if you can manage to get your Spider Man OTP who has a bad matchup to swap, or if you can tell him maybe, okay, we can change something for you, we can make this better, we do this and this, then he's going to be way more lenient to give you his time and his attention. Because he's not mentally defensive about it. That you feel like he's flamed, but he's instead treated as a peer and told to like

Like being increased in the odds of winning.

Coach Mills (02:14:39.947)
So like I know y'all really y'all y'all y'all are kind of about that, you know, grinding the ranked, like getting super high in ELO, especially you Donatello. I know you don't care as much about rank, trust me. But a lot of what y'all are describing sounds extremely fucking tedious. I'm not gonna lie. Like extremely fucking tedious and like I yeah, I mean, well that like it just feels like social engineering. Like, why should I have to eggshell around the fucking inting Spider Man? Like I would rather just crash out on him and if he throws the game, he throws the game, I'll just be in my shit elo.

CaptainCoach (02:14:55.28)
Well being a nice guy is tedious, Mills?

Donatello (02:15:04.456)
Ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (02:15:09.217)
But at least I can do it on my terms and I don't have to like like play the song and dance. Like I like I get if that if those are the outcomes you want, like I understand it. But it is it it does like doesn't that get exhausting? So like to like do that, especially when there's like people that don't give a like they don't give a fuck and they they'll throw for no reason or they they they they're super stubborn and they won't listen to you, like I feel like that just gonna drive you fucking insane. Like I don't I d like I don't know.

CaptainCoach (02:15:11.447)
yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:15:15.268)
Honestly.

CaptainCoach (02:15:20.386)
If if Donatello talked to me.

TrqstMe (02:15:25.866)
Again.

TrqstMe (02:15:33.569)
Again you don't have to do that. It's a way of increasing the winning chance. The same way that I don't do the bans when I play a rank game, you know? When I see okay, this are bad bands against you know, I have Donatello, I was AFK during the band phase, this guy has has wolf and I don't have finger open because we banned it, then of course I'm like, shit bro, I fucked up not ha not doing the bands. This is like my bad bro. Like I can like blame the team, but I know like internally fuck I fucked up, you know, like this is not good. So it it is a way to boost your chances of winning in the end.

CaptainCoach (02:15:59.801)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:16:03.502)
of the day. Right. So if you do it or not, it's up to you. Right? Communication is such an important part, especially on on like IGLing in the sense of like giving your team a direction to think, you know, like asking your supports, you know, they have these ultimates, we have these ultimates, what do we want to do? Right? This is like a common pro pro question. Everyone always says supports need to ultrack, but having someone to remind them to to do that action is super valid.

That's super good call. And these are like few small things in the game that all increase chances of winning each fight, you know? So you don't have to do it, but it would make you a better player and like it would it would like if you understand that this is important, it would make you realize that there's much more to matchmaking outside of your own gameplay or performance. Right.

CaptainCoach (02:16:51.458)
If I heard the guidance counselor voice from Donato, I'd probably throw on site. I'm not gonna lie. Somebody talked to me like that. It's like it's like the Benny Jesser, it's what I'm thinking of from like Dune. If you guys know what I'm talking about. The voice that they use to manipulate people. I think it's a little bit of that. The tone you strike, I think kinda goes a long way. 'Cause I I I just I people just say I sound angry all the time and I'm I'm like the

Coach Mills (02:16:55.55)
Yeah.

Donatello (02:16:58.894)
Yeah, I mean

Coach Mills (02:16:59.894)
Yeah, yeah.

Donatello (02:17:10.303)
Yeah, probably.

CaptainCoach (02:17:16.48)
Like I'm fucking on an edible, just chilling, having a good time, and everyone's like, Why are you so angry? I'm like, this is just how I talk, bro. Then I think about it, I'm like, I am kind of just angry all the time. I just need to, you know, just relax and just like the tone in which I stay stuff, just you know, just throw out throw out a compliment. Nice job here and there and

Coach Mills (02:17:19.125)
Ha ha ha.

Donatello (02:17:31.959)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (02:17:32.063)
Not gonna lie, like no one no one even wants to listen to what I have to say when I'm on Thor. Cause like the f like I'm already throwing by be being on Thor. Like it's like I mean like I I'm not hey hey, I let's do this and this. I'm not swapping off Thor though, but let's do this and this like it's not. It doesn't really work. I mean, maybe if I like Yeah. Well that you get first thing you hear is you is like, Okay, but can we swap off Thor and I say that shit like right

Donatello (02:17:38.158)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (02:17:40.429)
Yeah.

Donatello (02:17:47.988)
I've never I've never heard a Thor gave comms in my ring games, that's for sure. These guys are not in voice chat fucking running down the back line.

CaptainCoach (02:17:51.704)
Mm.

Donatello (02:17:59.23)
Yeah, I say that.

Coach Mills (02:17:59.689)
It's like in response you say hey hey can we can we can we calm our support also can swap off the door fuck, okay, sorry, my bad. I'm mute up. I'm not gonna say anything.

Donatello (02:18:07.49)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (02:18:08.93)
Yeah, I feel like if you're playing a hero people don't want on their team, if you give any kind of direction they're already on edge and they'll just snap like you know what I mean?

Coach Mills (02:18:12.887)
Yeah. Imagine a Jeff that game comms. yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll do that. Can you swap off Jeff though?

Donatello (02:18:19.682)
I mean I've I've never seen a Jeff give comms in my rank games, like literally, i it's not possible.

Coach Mills (02:18:21.951)
Well that that's why they're they're conditioned. I'm telling you, it's k like that you get conditioned, maybe.

Donatello (02:18:26.434)
I mean br bro, like genuinely I don't think I I I I don't think I've seen any Jeff say one single word besides like I got a four and that's it. And like it takes like it takes like eight eight ults until he has something and then it's like shit, good old

Coach Mills (02:18:35.74)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (02:18:36.442)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:18:41.966)
We just want you to pat on the head.

Coach Mills (02:18:42.005)
Well I I I feel like the more meta you play, the more you calm typically. Like a d maybe a general thing. Like like if you're playing hard meta or you're like the more meta the more meta characters you play, the more you calm generally. And the the less meta you play, the less you calm. 'Cause it's like you're gonna get a negative reaction like right away, just like selecting a character people don't believe in or people don't like. like I'm I like I I d I don't know, just like thinking about it. Like Spider Man players don't really fucking calm. I mean, I guess it's like not like completely off meta, like

TrqstMe (02:18:50.068)
It it's

CaptainCoach (02:18:50.528)
Could you say that again? Can you say that?

CaptainCoach (02:19:03.979)
Mm.

Coach Mills (02:19:11.147)
People that are one tricks, people that play like they're locking fucking blade or something random, like they're not gonna they're not gonna calm. Like they're not gonna calm or say anything. but it but the mag player will calm. Yeah, I don't I don't know.

TrqstMe (02:19:14.508)
Late. Yeah, I was gonna say blade bro. The classic. To get get stunned character.

Donatello (02:19:22.592)
I kind of agree with that actually. I don't know why. Maybe

TrqstMe (02:19:24.706)
There's a reason for it. Like in our team this is like the the so called like communication issue. If the matchup is bad and it feels very hard to play the map, it's increasingly harder to communicate.

Like if level one Krug has a bad time on support, how is he expected to call the same way? If he doesn't even like see a way to win the fight, right? Because he he he can't even walk up through the choke. So how is he going to talk in a way that actually enables the team? Right? And then like this is like why meta feels like it has like most people communicate more when they play meta. Like this is probably the reason. Because like the matchup is easier to play for them most of the time and they have a better time most of the time.

Donatello (02:19:59.745)
Yeah, it makes sense. 'Cause they they're just having a better time. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:20:05.698)
I I I could see an argument for the opposite though, like maybe s if s if you're where like you play in some off meta thing that only works if you get cooperation. That's one thing Steven said a lot. the Wanda, rank one Wanda. which I I I've noticed that as well. I you know, like yeah.

Donatello (02:20:07.043)
Spare.

TrqstMe (02:20:08.737)
Yeah, probably. As well. That exists, yeah.

TrqstMe (02:20:14.433)
Yes.

TrqstMe (02:20:23.115)
Yeah, that that's fine. That's that's fair to say, yeah.

Coach Mills (02:20:23.841)
Well I well, I I think like like as an example, like low to mid high to high Elo players all have a very different experience with like subpool. 'Cause just like a character that you requ like like requires like very specific coordination to like get the maximum value out of. And like like even in Grandmaster or like low select like people don't know what the fuck the character does or how the character operates or how you're supposed to play with the character. Like they don't know his heel or aura is like small and that you need to walk with it. Like there's just so many like like problems. So like

Donatello (02:20:53.004)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:20:53.311)
Most of the time, like if you want the character to work, you need to communicate exactly how he works, but then it's like I mean, it's it's just more steps, like more like understanding. Like you gotta like onboard them. Like pi you're like pitching them the hero as you're explaining them how to co cooperate with you. It's just like but I mean,

TrqstMe (02:21:09.335)
Yeah, that's fine. It it's a skill. If you wanna win with those heroes, you know, that are off meta, you're right. You need to know how to talk to your team about it. Or or you you just like play a gamble. And in the end this is what people think is random about the game. You know, where they take gambles. So like most of the time you will see people take gambles. But in in professional games you can't do that. So like these are the situations where you do fall more silent if you feel like matchup is not good and you can't change anything, then it's bad.

Coach Mills (02:21:14.965)
You gotta

Well I

TrqstMe (02:21:36.629)
So like i for support pool in example you ban in a specific way that it now enables support pool, you know, until you get counter swapped. So But it it does work. You know. You can like always make almost every hero work.

CaptainCoach (02:21:49.22)
I know we've had a lot of discussions more about the coordinated types of play, but I I think a what a lot of our viewers in particular, people in the comment section kind of want to know is how they can improve and win at games. And one particular thing that I I know I was talking about on my stream recently was seeing DPS players, because this is a role that I like again, I've been kind of learning.

Using their alts as an engage tool rather than as a tool to get the most possible kills. And I just wanted to hear your thoughts on like when you think that's a good idea to do, something like maybe a Silock just engaging with Alt to get the fight started, putting that initial pressure, you know, as a as a almost like a form of like taking space and and just kind of maybe walk me through the situations where something like that may be valuable. or is that just not how you want to play?

TrqstMe (02:22:36.575)
I mean I Donatello would agree that

like using an ult when the fight is theoretically already won is just a bad play in general. So like I I don't really see that like obviously it needs to be that you wanna start the start the fight with a very explosive turn because usually when you play attack, there's like a difference between attack and defense as well. Like on attack you wanna win faster than the opponent team because you're not fighting against time, right? Like the time is ticking against you. The enemy can spend like on triple triple in pro play you see it where we don't really play to win the fight, we play to stall off the time and then win with ultic on immediately.

Donatello (02:22:43.982)
Mm-hmm.

TrqstMe (02:23:08.857)
last fight with a very explosive turn and this is the same case like if you're on a DPS it's fine to just go in with an engagement tool. You know, like it's best play in slot most of the time. If you initiate the fight and you have the conditions to wipe the fight with it, why would you not do that? Of course you don't use ult when the fight is already won. So this is like there's no argument here. Yeah yeah.

Donatello (02:23:17.07)
Mm.

CaptainCoach (02:23:27.31)
No, that yeah, that's kind of what I meant. Kind of engaging with it w because you whatever, you know you're gonna win the fight if you just do this thing.

Donatello (02:23:33.74)
I think you're you're talking about defense more.

TrqstMe (02:23:33.983)
If if the conditions don't allow it then you then you need to like wait for the conditions to be good, right? Like if you if engaging with it is bad when they like low key lamps, then you need to wait for the conditions to be good, right? For like the old. Sorry, Donatello.

CaptainCoach (02:23:47.227)
Sure. So yeah, I mean like the the I can I I I'm I was playing with Death and Gaming, Silak player. I got literally we were on domination, they had point, we knew we had alt advantage. he literally like we were struggling to walk up 'cause they had heavy poke. He literally just dove their back line, did a little damage, popped his alt. They all kind of turtled and we just w walked in and wiped him. And I was thinking like, hey, I should I should do that more. Like so yeah, I I I just I just yeah, I just was no one wanted to know if you had any like tips, feedback. J seems like I kinda

Kind of covered it. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:24:19.016)
so

Donatello (02:24:20.024)
Well, I wanna go on that a little bit because I've been having like I was crashing out, I think like the other day. because we were playing defense. We were playing defense and I wanna ask like trust me 'cause we're here, right? And I want your guys' input on that as well. the map to me well this is more like about like rivals knowledge, now that I'm curious about it. But like the map is in a is in a stalemate

Coach Mills (02:24:30.103)
You're back.

TrqstMe (02:24:45.527)
Yeah, for sure.

Donatello (02:24:49.196)
Like position. Like tanks are on cart. Like we're playing like front to back, like super front to back comp. Like nothing's happening. No one can kill anyone besides if someone does like a crazy blunder. And then Yeah, exactly. And like no one can do anything. And then my

TrqstMe (02:24:58.519)
Yeah, it's too risky to walk because of stunts, yeah.

Donatello (02:25:04.66)
Like, I don't know. We just we're on defense. The the game is drawn. We're on defense. We're we're the clock's going down. We're winning technically, right? We're winning the the stalemate on defense. So like we don't have to do anything. So why is like my cloak and dagger ulting when like my tanks are like seventy percent HP? Like why why are we going in? What's going on? A are we like is this just like i i same thing for the DPS sometimes and some sometimes I probably do it too.

Coach Mills (02:25:19.207)
Yeah.

Donatello (02:25:29.642)
on Wolverine, right? 'cause I have like a super like in engage and aggressive ult. Like, should I just like tick the clock until some shit happened and we start losing? Or is it like sometimes like better to like go early and like but I swear it's like support sometimes. Like for th from what I've seen, like we're on defense, the clock's ticking, there's like a minute left. We're on stalemate and boom we cloak go and then we're fighting.

TrqstMe (02:25:51.285)
thing is like for most people there's already so much happening in rivals. So like they can't differentiate whether it was like a good play or bad play to go there. Like for you now you realize okay it actually makes no sense to go with Cloakhold right because the conditions on the map might not meet the reason why we should walk. Walking through the choke also puts us at risk. There's some instances where it it becomes a good play. Like let's say they have no support roots and it's last fight or like you wanna like get the map then but like the thing is that's like a a read and it's just like in that

Donatello (02:26:04.066)
Mm.

Donatello (02:26:13.022)
Mm. Yeah yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, totally.

TrqstMe (02:26:21.209)
Instance, it would have been like just a misplay, you know, because like stalling more time would be more valuable, or if they like get better conditions during the old cycle, that can also be a thing. Like let's say we cloaked and they cloaked and they have the better conditions to kill us through because they have more pressure in the melee melee matchup, right? They have like a wolf, they can grab outside, they have maybe a combo with it, like a machine to combo with a blind, and we don't, then those are reasons to go first, you know, as well, because then you have more time to kite. But like this, this is like the issue, you know, like as a as a pro, you calculate.

Donatello (02:26:23.702)
Yeah. huh.

Donatello (02:26:48.173)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:26:51.229)
these stuffs on top of matchup and you can't expect everyone to do that as well. So like it it's valid for people not to play that play cell. So the best thing you can do is just learn from them and just look at it objectively by like the logic on the map as you see like okay the cards here it's moving, do we have to go? Maybe we can stall and then you learn from it and you become a better player. That's like all that is to it.

Donatello (02:26:52.686)
Mm.

Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:27:12.58)
Yeah, I I generally tend to think, how many alts will I be able to get off before the game ends? How many alts will I be able to get off before the cart moves to checkpoint? Will I be able to get anyone else to an an a a game winning alt if I use an alt that keeps the team alive? So there's yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things that come into play, for sure. And then like you also have to consider portal plays. Sometimes I I mean that's twenty seconds of just

it's sustaining through the portals. So I mean a lot of times that can lead you like like bridge you to another alt that so I I I I do think there is sometimes like yeah, sometimes you probably do want to just rip an alt even though it's not even last fight. But like it it's probably very it's very situational and I'd say most times probably not.

Donatello (02:27:50.455)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:27:56.0)
I I also think like especially like supports they feel like a certain amount of pressure to like not miss a certain timing. Like I think more than other roles, like there's a timing that they feel like they really have to hit and like if they don't hit that timing, they're getting fucking flamed like by five people all at once. so like when you're you're when you're vibing there as Wolf, like and you you get to kind of dictate the terms on your on your like you get to dictate your own terms and there's not like a specific timing. Like sometimes, you know, like like trust me so like calming saying

Donatello (02:28:11.15)
Hm.

CaptainCoach (02:28:13.712)
Yes.

Donatello (02:28:20.61)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:28:25.195)
Hey, we're good here. Hey, we're safe here. Hey, we don't need to ult until this this mo this this point. Like, think about what what ults your team has and like just like you get to direct them 'cause you're more comfortable. And then they feel that pressure relief. You know what I'm saying? Because they they heard you. They hear you. I mean, I'm not like that's

TrqstMe (02:28:40.191)
Yeah yeah. I have the I have the advantage of being me. That's what I always tell people as well. You know, you can't you can't expect, you know, when you load into rank to have the same respect from the teammates as I get, naturally. It is a it is an issue to see it like this, right? But it is the reality. And it's not good this way, for sure. Like it needs to be developed and it should be normal that like everyone has equal respect but again like it it is a it is a biased environment.

CaptainCoach (02:28:52.448)
Donatello (02:28:53.186)
Yeah, a hundred percent, yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:29:08.986)
Forever atoning for my sins. That's a disadvantage of being me. From for me. I j I've just I just given up. I just like whatever. I just do whatever. I don't care.

Coach Mills (02:29:11.091)
it doesn't I've

TrqstMe (02:29:14.017)
The his advantage will be

Coach Mills (02:29:19.111)
Is is that what you said you said trust me you said I have the advantage of being me? That needs to be like a fucking quote on like a t shirt. That's a fucking that's a fucking bar. That's a that's a fucking bar right there. We better spam that in chat.

CaptainCoach (02:29:24.112)
That's that's a shirt, that's a T shirt right there.

TrqstMe (02:29:25.655)
no, it it is it is true that when I say when I say I want this comp to happen, I'm more likely to have success with that call. That's a reality thing, you know, that's not out of like the thin air, that's a data proven thing, you know, like if you watch the games.

Donatello (02:29:26.286)
That's aura.

Donatello (02:29:32.354)
Well yeah, th I mean that makes sense.

CaptainCoach (02:29:36.514)
It Yeah, it's it's like it's like when you're smurfing you tell people you're a smurf so they'll listen, you know? Like Hey, same thing.

Coach Mills (02:29:38.09)
Ha ha.

Donatello (02:29:39.99)
I yeah, if the rent

Coach Mills (02:29:44.007)
Okay.

TrqstMe (02:29:44.757)
Yeah, maybe maybe not this way, but like yeah, I get what you mean. Yeah, I I see it, I see it, yeah.

Donatello (02:29:44.759)
Nah.

Coach Mills (02:29:49.559)
Okay, so I wanna do quick, it's like hot, like I'm gonna throw out something. I just want like quick takes, like quick, quick hot takes, and then you know, we're gonna like after it, we're gonna wrap things up. But I wanna I'm curious. So first thing, both your opinions. No new hero after gore in this season. Good or bad? What are your thoughts? Good for for what more better balance?

TrqstMe (02:30:08.875)
Good, yeah. Good. Yeah.

Donatello (02:30:09.996)
Good, yeah. Just for better balancing. I'm I'm hoping the team like takes i Yeah. Exactly, yeah.

TrqstMe (02:30:14.441)
Investing investing more time in rethinking the balance, 'cause that's what we need.

CaptainCoach (02:30:19.31)
This patch will be interesting. I think it's good. I'm excited to see what they do.

Coach Mills (02:30:21.289)
And and and and

Donatello (02:30:21.666)
I mean it's all it's also another character less, like no no new team ups added with whatever, so like do we need to balance around that or whatever? It it's just good, it's really good.

CaptainCoach (02:30:30.574)
Yeah. We've never seen them do a full like a full cycle like this, I don't I don't think, to where like, let's see what they can do. Let's see him cook, you know.

Donatello (02:30:34.414)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (02:30:38.097)
Wanda Wanda rework, good or bad?

TrqstMe (02:30:43.329)
I didn't really feel it that much to be honest. In pro play in in low rank I c I can see that the frustration is maybe higher against it, but I also think it's a nice character for pro play to play. not pro play, sorry. low low Edo. I was kinda com confused in the head, sorry, my bad. Like I feel like the that the opposite of pro play kind of this is like yeah, I think I think it's good.

Donatello (02:30:43.83)
It's me either. I mean

Coach Mills (02:30:44.535)
That's a completely irrelevant.

Donatello (02:30:52.108)
What?

Donatello (02:30:57.878)
Okay. I think I think it's fine. I I mean it's it's it's it's a like a rework rework, but on on on the other end she's just better, right? Like there's no like negative impact. So it's a buff, but like the character nobody played her before because she was horrible. So like there no one wants to like pick her up. But like could she be played? We'll have to figure out, man. Maybe some pro will like pick her up for like fifty hours and become like find some shit out that c

Coach Mills (02:30:58.923)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:31:08.299)
Yeah, yeah, it's fine.

TrqstMe (02:31:22.773)
was played in in MRC before the rework even, right? But like not really ignite level, you know, so yeah yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:31:24.002)
E

Donatello (02:31:26.22)
Really? I mean maybe an MRI. I I don't know. You you never know 'cause you you probably don't even scrim against it, right? Trust me? So like Exactly.

Coach Mills (02:31:28.041)
is it

TrqstMe (02:31:32.917)
Yeah, we no one picks up. You can't.

Coach Mills (02:31:34.467)
So

CaptainCoach (02:31:35.128)
You either die an off meta pick or live long enough to see your main become a throw hero.

TrqstMe (02:31:39.725)
Yeah.

There's like this is like the few there's like a few niche hero interactions and heroes that just become worse once the enemy team gets better. Spider Man is an example. Once people start having better aim, better read for your engagement, you have too low HP, you just die instantly. You know, like you're not playing like a like a celestial hella who's not hitting the shot on you. You play tarot who's guaranteed hitting the double double tap on you and you're dead. So it's it's like there's some heroes that just become worse once you like play higher rank. That's just how it is. Zanwanda is one of them. She might

Coach Mills (02:31:41.899)
Yeah.

Donatello (02:31:42.168)
Hmm.

TrqstMe (02:32:10.797)
be good in low rank. Same with Penny like in the past. And Penny's gr great as well in probably. Yeah yeah.

Coach Mills (02:32:12.385)
No, yeah, her win rate like skyrocketed. It's like fifty like fifty six plus in Mulsterings.

Donatello (02:32:14.88)
I mean Penny Penny was clowned on. Penny was clowned on, like that's what I'm saying. But before like before like a couple seasons ago, like no pros were picking her up. Right? But like she didn't change that much. People just

TrqstMe (02:32:18.187)
Penny's great in pro play right now. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:32:27.627)
She well she did see play in Dino Meta. She's she saw play in Dino Meta.

TrqstMe (02:32:28.609)
She changed a lot. The the entire the entire archetype changed around that. It's the fact that like now the sustain thing, like as we say, you know, the issue is on attack on attack you can't walk. It's it's like that the entire way how the game is played changed. So some characters with a kit that supports that playstyle now become better. That's just how it works, you know, there's a logic driven this one.

Donatello (02:32:36.31)
actually you're right. Yeah, they gave her they gave her a heel. Yeah.

Mm.

CaptainCoach (02:32:47.918)
I I had I I wanted to ask a quick question while we're on the subject with the penny sustain. is there a downside to the passive sustain that she gives on defense because it denies like especially in overtime situations because it denies your support's alt charge because she gets that healing rather than your team? Is there is there something there like that you'd need to play around or consider when you're playing penny and pro now?

TrqstMe (02:33:11.243)
Nah. There's like there's you can always try to min-max everything. The problem is it's the same issue with pro play that like y y every every casual or like every rank player experience

It does feel random to play and there's things to like actively think about that are valid and things that are like maybe as minimal as this. Like in an example can be for a ranked player, it doesn't matter to just randomly shoot. For a professional, it's like you have ult with Hella, you don't want to shoot because you wanna use your ult, you know, you don't wanna like feed them supportals and like allow them to catch up. Like these are like niche interactions that like matter to pros, but maybe not to ranked players. But then there's like the niche interactions like the penny nest where like no one no one gives a shit.

CaptainCoach (02:33:42.755)
Right.

CaptainCoach (02:33:53.284)
Yeah. I mean

TrqstMe (02:33:53.449)
It it's too uncal i it's too much analysis and most most of the people don't have the mind for it. I am an in an a nerd, okay, like complete complete nerd, you know, complete analysis freak, you know. So I break down every cooldown, every stuff on the map that I see, you know, does it work? Can we walk up? They like is it logical? Like I do all of that but like for the main person in Pro Play it's just whatever, you know, like it's it's whatever. Yeah.

Donatello (02:33:54.318)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:34:02.895)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:34:14.266)
Yeah, bro, like I'll like the last second of a punny I'll jump in front of it, let him get me down to like thirty percent and be like, Hey, free all charge, you know, like nothing you is it a lot of time that's like that's like eight eight percent.

TrqstMe (02:34:21.525)
Yeah yeah. Those niche there's there's some there's some instances where you do that of course and that that's like valid, you know, like but there's also niche things that are just too much, you know, to consider. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:34:32.834)
Sure. Fair enough.

Coach Mills (02:34:33.831)
wha so what's the next hero reworked? We saw Widow, we saw Wanda. What's what's what's a hero you want reworked, both of y'all? Donnie, you first. What what's what what do you want?

TrqstMe (02:34:45.537)
Wolf. Of course Wolf. Of course Wolf bro Complete Complete cringe here, bro. This is so cringe, bro. Because the because the problem is in in my opinion, the way Rivals is designed is exactly why this is like annoying. Because like a displacement fully wins you the game and it's the entire it's a gimmick character with such an annoying gimmick that

Donatello (02:34:45.646)
I gotta think about that. You go first, trust me, Wolf? Hell.

Coach Mills (02:34:49.752)
shit let's go delete that bitch let's go

CaptainCoach (02:34:50.2)
Wow.

Donatello (02:34:55.252)
Ha ha.

Coach Mills (02:35:07.125)
That's what he was talking about with stuns on the corner. It's literally wolf. That's what he's talking about the whole time. I mean, that's one of the things. I was like

TrqstMe (02:35:13.333)
No no no but but you underst it it's the entire it's the entire way how the game is played that i allows these things. It's the same with Angela. Angela should never be good. That's just the reality thing. I want characters that like require outside of a gimmick a win condition, right? Because the entire win condition with Wolf is to entry grab someone and and like that's that's it. You know, like that's the entire win condition. Maybe you take space by putting pressure on the map by flanking

Donatello (02:35:13.956)
no.

TrqstMe (02:35:42.304)
And like opening the map that way. But the entire reason why people surrender the space is because they respect the the the displacement grab. And that only happens again. It wouldn't be that bad if the entire way how the game is played isn't sustained. Because that leaves you as a tank completely vernible. Because you have to fully trust when walking up your inverse from like hitting that that stuff, hitting the the anti-grab from your team counter walking you, not falling into your your

Donatello (02:35:57.57)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:36:09.471)
pressure trap, right? My second tank not randomly idling on the map w doing that. Us walking together when you don't have grab and when we miss our timing, it's it's fucked. Like the the character adds too much randomness that I don't like. The same way that like characters like Angela add too much randomness. You know the entire boobs, entire stunts, I I I say it like the stunts need to be reduced. The same way that the sustain needs to be reduced to compensate that and the same way movement cooldowns need to be added. If all of these things happen then the gameplay flow would be a lot better and it wouldn't be this gimmick

gimmick thing that would win you games. It wouldn't like triple, triple support, triple tank that wins you games. It wouldn't be like it it would actually be more focused on neutral fights, which would be more valid for me.

CaptainCoach (02:36:47.524)
Mills, did I tell you I'm in the process of working no, I did. I I'm Hulkerywork. I'm I'm writing up a Hulker work right now. I I think

Donatello (02:36:54.754)
Hulk? I think Hulk's fine. I think I think I mean I I think a lot of people

Coach Mills (02:36:55.012)
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

TrqstMe (02:36:56.629)
Yeah, that's fine as crazy, bro. Again, he would be fine if there wasn't this infinite amount of stunts, bro, and and pressure on the map, bro. He does he does fifty damage per second and most of the characters have movement kudos to get away from your punches. Like in season zero it was actually fine because many people c didn't have that, but like it's complete chop.

Donatello (02:37:05.367)
Yeah, actually, yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:37:18.089)
Yeah, I mean I think him

TrqstMe (02:37:18.987)
What would your changes be? Yeah, but what what would your changes be? I'm actually interested. Would you add like a gun or something? Or like would you increase the damage of a slap or what would you do?

Donatello (02:37:19.276)
Yeah, but he has a he ha he has a bubble that's broken.

Coach Mills (02:37:22.551)
That said that's broken.

CaptainCoach (02:37:29.708)
I would g I would remove his bubble completely. I think it's too much yeah, it's too hard to b I I like the ability. Maybe put it in the form of a team up and give it a longer cooldown. But I I think he I I mean that's why you see him get picked in pro and then like everywhere else everybody just thinks he's terrible because he is. He just gets absolutely blown up. So I I would give him more tankiness, make him a little slower, make him make him more of a trade pattern, maybe something like Venom, make his jump a little longer, a little bit more powerful, bit tankier.

TrqstMe (02:37:32.843)
Really?

CaptainCoach (02:37:57.664)
you you gotta kinda put him into more of like a like a niche a little bit and give him some sort of like C C break instead of a bubble, and then it'll enhance all his other abilities. So either when he he can use it when he's below a certain health or when he C C'd and then he gets enraged and all his other abilities get buffed. And

Donatello (02:38:15.052)
He could cleanse with like the bubble. I feel like that'd be like fair. Like he he gets Luna freeze and he gets cleansed like he uses bubble and then he's out or something like that. Could be cool.

CaptainCoach (02:38:18.148)
That that that's also something people have suggested.

TrqstMe (02:38:20.044)
But then

TrqstMe (02:38:24.713)
I fully see the change. Like I it sounds great, right? But then the same gameplay loop issue would happen where now you jump the back lane with CC immunity, right? And they can't defend themselves. They need other people to defend themselves. So it's like unfun for them. Like imagine like you play support and there's like a 800 HP captain coach jumping your backline, you know, with CC immunity, and you have like a random Spider-Man doing something else on the map, and you're like, GG.

CaptainCoach (02:38:24.772)
Yeah, I I

Donatello (02:38:37.378)
Well it's one it's one and you cleanse it.

Coach Mills (02:38:44.651)
Yeah.

Donatello (02:38:44.962)
Ha ha.

Donatello (02:38:49.506)
Okay, no, no.

It's not a C C immunity, it'd be a cleanse, like a one time cleanse. So like So like like you you jump you jump on the Luna, you bubble, but like you'll have the bubble like effect, like the shield, but you also like cleanse the freeze. But like that's one. And then if you get like wolf grabbed after you're cooked, you what I mean?

TrqstMe (02:38:54.609)
yeah. Okay, yeah, I see it.

CaptainCoach (02:38:55.168)
One time, probably like fifteen second cooldown.

TrqstMe (02:39:00.844)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:39:04.195)
And

CaptainCoach (02:39:07.608)
I I also failed dimension, so unlike Venom where you can just zip wait, I I missed that part. I I gotta get better at listening. What did he say? But

Coach Mills (02:39:09.713)
He's the whoops out.

Donatello (02:39:12.995)
Ha ha.

TrqstMe (02:39:13.527)
Bro, this is shit. Nothing, bro, nothing. I just I just

Coach Mills (02:39:20.565)
Well, 'cause Truss Trust is trying to delete Wolf, that's why he's getting it at it.

CaptainCoach (02:39:23.232)
But I I

Donatello (02:39:23.404)
No.

TrqstMe (02:39:24.427)
No, I just had a sweaty armpit. That's it. Like insanely sweaty. So I was like, shit.

Coach Mills (02:39:27.677)
so okay.

CaptainCoach (02:39:29.526)
I I I don't want to give too much away because I'm I'm gonna make a video. I'll probably release it this week, but the his minimum jump charge would be like double. So there's a way more counterplay. Yeah. So he he'd be a little slower. I don't want that. I think like the movement is what makes Hulk Hulk players good. Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:39:36.191)
Mm-hmm. really? Okay.

Donatello (02:39:44.514)
Yeah, I think he's fine or like the movement wise. You know what I'd add, bro, coach, I'd add like

TrqstMe (02:39:48.203)
But again he's it's only fine because there's so many stunts in the game. You need it, you know? It was like yeah. Yeah, yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:39:51.747)
Right, exactly.

Donatello (02:39:52.598)
I I'd add I'd add an effect on his jump. Like when he lands it does some shit, like some damage or whatever. Like why not? I'm not yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:39:56.773)
Yes. So I took and I don't want to give too much away, but I I I f yeah. Full full charge would do that, a full charge jump, and it would go way farther. Yeah. Thor.

TrqstMe (02:40:00.594)
okay, okay.

Coach Mills (02:40:01.463)
Spoiler, spoiler.

TrqstMe (02:40:05.173)
What would you rework, Coach Mills?

Coach Mills (02:40:07.383)
I mean I mean we gotta we gotta turn like Hawkeye into like not a dog shit hero. I mean like Hawkeye's just useless. I mean he's just a completely like like placeholder like I I like the idea of giving him like three different types of arrows and he's like way more mobile. Like he has like multiple roles, he's not one shotting at all, it's like a completely different like style of character, more like an archer and like other like fantasy games, like something along those lines.

Donatello (02:40:14.68)
Fair.

TrqstMe (02:40:32.081)
I agree we need Agat to bring in more casuals. He needs to make more videos. He needs to make more videos. Really?

Coach Mills (02:40:35.285)
Yeah yeah. yeah, yeah, yeah. No RK he no, he w he actually wanted to come on the pod. We were actually gonna get him on the pod at some point. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He he he hit us up. Yeah, it'd be sick. yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:40:44.91)
He needs some trick shots like what was it Hanzo had something like that would be cool.

Coach Mills (02:40:49.039)
I mean, yeah, but Hanzo had a lot of he d one of his trick shots was just a one shot for tanks, and then the like like and then he had his like I yeah, I mean, and then he yeah, it's just it's just stupid. no I I I'm actually w I'm curious so here's the thing, Dalitel. I'm curious if you think about this. So 'cause 'cause I like Thor, right? I think Thor's design is toxic. I think his entire gameplay loop is toxic. The one eighty of tanks, the constant kidnapping. I think that Thor is only healthy if he's not good.

CaptainCoach (02:40:54.039)
Okay.

Coach Mills (02:41:18.251)
I don't think he should ever be above B tier. I think mostly he should be relegated to C tier or minus, which is where he has been. And I feel like I feel the same way with any character that has a C C gimmick like Wolverine as well. I feel the exact same way. I don't think I think that these characters that have C C gimmicks or like toxic gameplay loops, in my opinion, should not be meta. Like, like to me, Thor Thor, like like I I see a whole bunch of people, they always want, they're like, hey, you pedal Thorbuffs, talk Thorbuffs, all this stuff. I was

Donatello (02:41:38.67)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (02:41:45.523)
I don't want the character to be good. Like he needs to be dog shit. Cause if he ever becomes like AS tier, what's the first thing people are gonna say? you gotta remove his kidnap. You gotta remove his 180, you gotta like then then all of a sudden this character's stripped down to not what he is right now. Like he's only okay with the design he has as a dog shit character. I mean, in my opinion. Like that that I I think that And like so I think people need to think about like you can't have your cake and eat it too. Like you can't have

TrqstMe (02:41:46.167)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:42:11.467)
Your character be super busted and and strong and then also have like a toxic design, in my opinion. That that that's not always the case, but like, you know.

Donatello (02:42:18.7)
Yeah. No, I agree. I I I agree.

TrqstMe (02:42:22.335)
I see it. It's also like four is like the prime example of like unfun for other people to play for angles. 'Cause he just marks angles and it's like annoying to play against him on angles, right? But like he's kinda useless on it as well if you have the right hero. But then again, like if you play the wrong hero, he's just kinda OP, so it's like it's like I I think he's like a niche hero to be okay, but again, four would be great if there wasn't this many stunts in the game.

Coach Mills (02:42:29.195)
Right. Yeah, that's that's his entire yeah, when you were saying that, I was like, That's the entire thing he does.

Coach Mills (02:42:39.713)
He's yeah, he's tennis, yeah.

TrqstMe (02:42:48.203)
Like if the if if playing the the map is this punishing and again he he becomes increasingly worse the better the opponent team is. Because by hitting stunts, by punishing his positioning, his immobility, in the end of the day, right, that's that's what makes and breaks the character.

Donatello (02:42:48.782)
True.

Coach Mills (02:42:56.299)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:42:57.2)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:43:02.241)
He's like the perfect example of like I think he has like the inverse problem as Dino. Right, right. Cause so cause I I was wondering this, like, I'm curious about your take on this, trust me, is like Dino has this problem where he in order to make him okay in low ELO, he has to be completely busted in high ELO. Because but like and like I think Thor is kinda like the opposite. Like it's like flipped where it's like Dino has this weird design where he's extremely

TrqstMe (02:43:06.177)
He's like a hawk. Roll talk. He's like a roll talk. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:43:28.971)
Like you want him to be this low elo viable character because he's like the cool dyno, but every time they make him even remotely good in low elo, he's just fucking breaks the game in high elo. So I don't I don't even know to me it's a design problem with the character because he's too p fucking big and people don't play cover. Like I don't know how to fix it.

TrqstMe (02:43:41.281)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:43:42.862)
Wha he's he's a range hero now too. Like like what is that all about? Like they just gave him a gun and now he's got the beam he can just

Coach Mills (02:43:49.877)
That's the fun part about him. That's the only fun part about him is but yeah.

Donatello (02:43:51.051)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (02:43:53.07)
Like what a like I don't know what they were thinking with that, but

TrqstMe (02:43:57.558)
it's also like almost impossible to design him in a way that would fit a dinosaur. Right? Like if you think about it. Like i 'cause your only way to fix these issues is to like legit give him more movement speed, reduce the amount of damage he does to like be super annoying, fly and like act like a speedboat who goes in and out and like plays like a somewhat of a dive character, you know, and like plays to annoy like that that would be a playstyle that would be valid, but you can't give that to the dinosaur, bro. Dinosaurs are slow, you know, so like

Donatello (02:43:59.48)
Hm.

Coach Mills (02:44:03.426)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (02:44:04.352)
Yeah. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:44:19.375)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (02:44:21.008)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:44:25.063)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:44:26.015)
And then like the only way, as you say, it is true, you can only over overtune his abilities that are already existing. That's and then it it again, it leads into this front to back matchup where you can't dive into him because he's too strong. He's just standing inside of his team, chomping away. And if if that doesn't work for him, then he's useless. So it's like it's like Yeah, it's fucked.

Coach Mills (02:44:45.087)
that so like I I I I I thought like, okay, what if you gave him some fucking weird passive like intimidation? If he's completely out in the open away from cover, he gets like damage reduction or some shit. Something to like that's the way to compensate it for like low rank players that don't use cover, cause then all of a sudden their win rate will skyrocket in low relo and then we could nerf him for high elo and he's still be fine. Like I'm just trying to think of like what's a weird way that you could fix this with design? I dcause I can't fucking think of it. I'm like trying to figure it out.

CaptainCoach (02:44:57.189)
Mm-hmm.

Solo tank dyno.

TrqstMe (02:45:11.927)
Weird way.

Coach Mills (02:45:13.367)
'Cause 'cause you you you basically have to make it so that the character has like a positive win rate in low ELO. without making him completely busted in high elo, which they have not successfully done. I I I mean there has to be a w Wha Why?

TrqstMe (02:45:22.901)
Yeah. You're not going to like it, bro. You're not going to like it. But the only way only way to fix it is to make taking damage.

actually an important stat. Because right now is you're on low elo you're too d at in any tank you're too dependent on what your supports do. So you're unable to play a different way. Like let's say like taking damage would be bad. Then like the timing of when you take a turn on Dino matters more. Like the way you trade resource, you know, like the way like there's a lot more min-mex interactions that would mean a lot more and timings of when to peak that would mean a lot more. So like that would be a way to increase like

Coach Mills (02:46:01.889)
Like a more natural skill.

TrqstMe (02:46:02.517)
the hero interaction kind of right because right now it's like you have to at all times peak the enemy team and they have to peak you at all times and like depending on how the fight goes it's kind of out of your control on Dino and it feels kind of bad. And like the the low Edo players realize that to some extent but the high players realize it fully, you know so like the character is exactly designed like this that there's no other way to play the game. As you said, you know there's no other way to play the game. You need to either be completely overtuned in your

own cooldows that will still lead into you fighting the enemy dino in the same way and both of you feel will still feel random on who wins but yeah because because like it is you know because you can like lose the trade based on one niche interaction or one teammate from you looking away even though you took the right approach on the turn. If you read right now okay I can walk up then they have one interaction someone else is lazy on your team when they shouldn't be which you can't read now walking up was a bad play so the logical response is you don't want to

Coach Mills (02:46:40.521)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:47:02.391)
walk at all. So you don't play the game at all, which is right now the the main way of playing Dino. Right now is you right now you're AFK to farm rocket holds so you have a consistent way of walking up. That's the reason. So like it this is like wired in the brain. The same way you going on a flank is punished because you can't. You know, because it it is wired in your brain. By going on a flank you actively are trained, you lose doing that. You know?

Coach Mills (02:47:06.539)
Just AFK, yeah, yeah, yeah. You just fucking don't do

TrqstMe (02:47:27.595)
So it's like an issue. But again it it's only fixable if you rethink the entire game, to be honest, in my opinion.

Coach Mills (02:47:36.009)
okay, last one. I I mean I mean this probably answered it. I was gonna I was gonna say like the last one is like if y'all could pick one hero to delete, just remove from the game forever. Like it never exists. It doesn't it it would just be gone. Wait, I don't know what you're putting at. Wait, what are you putting? wolf. he shit. Wolf. Holy fuck. Holy fuck.

Donatello (02:47:50.83)
Yeah, are you pointing at me? Are you pointing at me?

TrqstMe (02:47:52.056)
This guy bro, this guy. It's always the same bro. Every time I play this guy on ranked, I'm like fuck we didn't fan Donatello Wolf bro, why is this in so eight?

Donatello (02:47:55.829)
I I'm on the wrong side, bro.

Coach Mills (02:48:02.357)
shit.

Donatello (02:48:03.855)
That's funny.

CaptainCoach (02:48:07.158)
How do I how do I point at Mills' store? Where where are you? Nah, for me it's Jubilee. I hate Jubilee so much. I hate that hero. I hate that hero.

Coach Mills (02:48:09.555)
Wha wha what's wrong with more, bro?

Donatello (02:48:10.616)
Thor Thor.

TrqstMe (02:48:13.121)
Four bending four is crazy.

Coach Mills (02:48:14.536)
Donatello (02:48:15.8)
Bruh. Jubilee? really?

TrqstMe (02:48:18.763)
Really? That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's Dino next. Dino needs to be next. May Dino needs to be maybe first. Yeah, Jeff Jeff is actually valid as well. Or rebook. It needs a rebook. This

Coach Mills (02:48:19.147)
Why really? Really.

Donatello (02:48:22.018)
Dude, I'm the I'm deleting like Jeff, bro. Yeah, fff Fuck Jeff. Jeff, Jeff like the the fact that you can just live and be annoying and just like do whatever you want. If you're if you're like a a good Jeff player, it's like it's like impossible to kill you. Like literally, it's impossible to kill you. Unless you play like DD. Or like Gore now kinda like fucks him. But like it it's no it no it is, it

Coach Mills (02:48:26.881)
Jeff?

TrqstMe (02:48:34.71)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:48:41.493)
It's like it's early stage DD. Jeff is early Am I wrong with my take in the beginning? It is, bro. It is early stage DD.

Donatello (02:48:49.846)
It's just cancer. Like I just can't kill you, bro. You you do whatever. You s you spin on me, you fucking push me back. Like fuck off, bro. Like fuck that.

Coach Mills (02:48:59.861)
Yeah, I mean if you asked me last season it would have been the thing. Like easily the thing. But I I guess they could just like heavily nerve I I fucking hated that character last season. Holy shit. I I feel worse about that character than I feel about Dino by a mile. He just was just like this completely brain dead like

Donatello (02:49:05.166)
Mm.

Donatello (02:49:08.994)
No, last season it was pretty

CaptainCoach (02:49:13.018)
They th thing thing is the gateway drug into more tanks, Mills. Like come on, man.

Coach Mills (02:49:17.559)
No, no, no. I guess maybe it's just 'cause I just played Thor. I just could I literally couldn't do anything to that character at all, like in any way. Can't do a single thing. Yeah, can't y yeah

TrqstMe (02:49:20.961)
Thing is actually a good call as well, yeah.

Donatello (02:49:26.048)
Yeah, probably you actually can't deal with them, yeah.

TrqstMe (02:49:28.435)
Only cap could, but like not really. You would just contest them, so Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:49:32.468)
Yeah.

TrqstMe (02:49:34.441)
And like the thing is like contesting support was the main win condition because the uptime of supports was the most important, which is still to this day the case. You know, that's why like in the past the Jeff flank was so OP and we w we used it to win World Championship in in China. Last year is the only team that played the hero. Because we realized that like diving back line and like cutting the healing from them while having your own healing in their backline and they have to like turn around to clear you and they have to also simultaneously walk up is like very hard in the game because the game flow is just broken.

in a way, you know, where that can be abused, which shouldn't be the case. Really?

CaptainCoach (02:50:07.726)
Yeah, think I think Jeff's cool. I like Jeff. Yeah. Jeff Jeff is what I played with when I I first hit top five hundred. I was the I the duo with a Jeff player. Yeah. Yeah. We we we got some good synergy and it was yeah, it was just feeding Old Charge. Just feed like we had we got like three sub Jeff alts to every like one cloak alt in a in a lot of the games. It was it was a lot of fun. But I could see why people don't like him.

Coach Mills (02:50:16.144)
really? yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Coach Mills (02:50:30.791)
wait, wait, Mantis Mantis I probably would want Mantis deleted, no? Like isn't she like the main cause of like a lot of triple support bullshit like Mantis might like I don't know. I don't know, maybe maybe not delete. Sha I it's weird delete is a weird word 'cause I would rather just rework the character, but I get it.

Donatello (02:50:35.19)
Mm.

CaptainCoach (02:50:48.051)
tr trust me, what's with your stream titles, bro?

TrqstMe (02:50:51.051)
Bro, always. I'm fully invested. Bro, everyone thinks they're completely AI generated. Obviously the lingua and the c obviously the like I'm getting I'm getting fried everywhere on on Twitter for always AI generating stuff, but it's really helpful for grammar. I don't do it at all by the way. I fully write everything that I say myself. I just have like the grammar fixed and stuff.

Donatello (02:50:56.438)
What is it?

CaptainCoach (02:50:57.003)
Ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (02:50:57.331)
Wait, wait, what

TrqstMe (02:51:12.951)
Like and maybe some wording fixed, you know, like but the the the entire reasoning and the entire what what's it called? The entire entire intention of the the wording is by myself of course. I just use it for the grammar and the wording,

CaptainCoach (02:51:23.076)
Yeah, so for for anyone who doesn't know he has he's very

Coach Mills (02:51:23.27)
That's

CaptainCoach (02:51:27.78)
Like to practice grammar and wording? Like I'm not I'm not I don't know what you mean. okay. Gotcha, gotcha.

Coach Mills (02:51:30.219)
No, just just so it's

TrqstMe (02:51:30.891)
No, to make it sound better of course. Like if I if I say I wanna be better and be the best, you know, that it doesn't sound like the best and then I say like I wanna climb the mountain, you know, like make sure I I work on my skills, I sharpen, I hone the blade, you know, I hone the I hone the skills and to to fight the enemies with the blade, you know. And then I think of something and then I just put it in and it's like okay, I get a good good title. It's fine. Locked in.

Coach Mills (02:51:40.503)
My biggest advantage is being me, right? Yeah. A hundred percent. I like I like it.

Donatello (02:51:40.598)
Mm.

Donatello (02:51:48.866)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (02:51:56.017)
And then Donna, tell it what what did you do before streaming rivals? Like what was your main hobby? Like was it just gaming or did you do like sports or like

Donatello (02:52:02.479)
yeah, I mean I've been gaming like my whole life, but like I don't w you're asking me like what I'm I did before. well now I'm it's mostly like content creation. Like I go to the gym, I mean now it's like a like my job, right? But like yeah, I did a little b little sport here and there. shit. shit Yo, I'm not even showing mine now, I can't even do that. It's over.

CaptainCoach (02:52:10.638)
What are you into? Yeah, what are you into?

Coach Mills (02:52:23.492)
shit. shit. shit.

Donatello (02:52:30.03)
but like I snowboard, yeah, I'm a bit a big snowboard fan, yeah, during winter.

Coach Mills (02:52:32.471)
Trust me.

CaptainCoach (02:52:32.696)
Okay, sick. I broke my arm snowboarding. I'm a big ski guy actually. Or was. Yeah. Did

Coach Mills (02:52:35.607)
Trust me.

Donatello (02:52:37.388)
Ski guy? Yeah. S I ne I never really tried ski. I was on a board since I was like six, but

CaptainCoach (02:52:42.906)
Could see that. yeah. Snowboarding sick. Wait, where are you from?

Donatello (02:52:44.63)
Yeah. Yeah, that's fun. Quebec, mon l like Montreal, Canada, yeah. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:52:48.97)
no shit. Okay.

Coach Mills (02:52:49.659)
shit. Yeah, see I like I don't know fucking snow at all. I'm down in Texas. I don't know anything. Like skiing? The fuck? I don't know or snowboarding.

TrqstMe (02:52:51.361)
The classic. Everyone's from there.

CaptainCoach (02:53:00.652)
I miss Texas, man. That's how y I lived there a couple years.

Coach Mills (02:53:04.599)
It's hot hell. It's fucking hot as hell. but yeah, I mean, that's true. That is true. but guys, thank y'all for coming on. We we three hour pod, feel like a breeze. Thank y'all for sharing y'all thoughts. I wanna ask y'all if if people want to support you, if if people like what you're all about, Donatello, where can people find you?

Donatello (02:53:08.896)
No no tax though.

CaptainCoach (02:53:19.822)
Absolutely.

Donatello (02:53:26.666)
okay. Lol Donatello before Lol before the name and every every single platform, specifically like mainly Twitch where I stream every day. But I post on YouTube, porch I post short form content on TikTok, Instagram, so if if you have these applications I'm also over there.

Coach Mills (02:53:44.544)
yeah, thank you so much for coming on, man. And trust me, trust me. where can people support you? Where could people find you?

CaptainCoach (02:53:46.988)
yeah.

TrqstMe (02:53:50.635)
Suport

As I said, I'm very passionate about my academy, you know, like teaching people the game, telling them on how to increase their win rate and stuff in like every way they can think of. Like I'm working I'm working a lot on it, like sharing my coaching sessions that I do with in a WOD library style and like holding seminars. So they can find me there on trust dot me, I would say, or trust me academy, if you wanna like both both will find the link, you know. So that if if I'm allowed to shout it out, you know, you can cut it out if you want to. But that's fine. Okay, okay.

Coach Mills (02:54:19.349)
No, no, a hundred percent. You're a hundred percent a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know we're we're very grateful for you coming on. and I think a lot of people learn some some things about your insight and yeah. yeah, I yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And y'all are both welcome on, back on anytime. and last last thing before we sign off, just a number. score from one to ten on season ten so far. Just a number. Just and then and that'll be it.

TrqstMe (02:54:30.965)
I think it was interesting topics a lot.

TrqstMe (02:54:47.969)
Five.

Donatello (02:54:48.587)
five? Well I was about to say like eight point five. I'm having fun. I'm having fun on on the new character. I'm having fun.

Coach Mills (02:54:49.601)
Five. Okay.

TrqstMe (02:54:50.519)
five okay yeah yeah I mean you guys don't save dino first and then play into penny and dino and it's that's like that's like that's like the thing you guys can just ban Dino and Emma and you guys have fun that's just it you know like I I I play Dino Emma into into Dino Emma and Penny and it's like okay GG

Donatello (02:55:00.43)
Yeah, no I know. I've watched the pro games. I've watched the pro games, yeah. So me even even mm, true.

Coach Mills (02:55:00.841)
Yeah.

Ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (02:55:15.639)
Well thank you guys coming on and make sure you check out both these guys, check them out, support them, smash the like, subscribe, let us know who you want to see on next. Thank y'all and peace bye.

Donatello (02:55:15.958)
Yeah, I can I can definitely see that.

CaptainCoach (02:55:27.749)
Bye.

Donatello (02:55:29.005)
Bye bye.