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Rethink Culture is the podcast that shines the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture. Virtually all of the business leaders who make headlines today do so because of their company performance. Yet, the people and the culture of a company is at least as important as its performance. It's time that we shine the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture and are putting people and culture at the forefront.
00:00:07:13 - 00:00:28:14
Andreas
Good morning. Good afternoon and good evening, wherever you are. Welcome to another episode of the Rethink Culture Podcast, the podcast that shines a spotlight on business leaders who are creating intentional cultures, who see their employees not as resources to be managed and directed, but as people that need to be led and inspired. My name is Andreas Konstantinou, and I'm your host.
00:00:28:16 - 00:00:53:11
Andreas
I see myself as an accidental micromanager who turned servant leader and over the years developed a personal passion for culture. And I'm also the founder of Rethink Culture, a company that aims to create 1 million healthier, more fulfilling work cultures. Today, I have the pleasure of welcoming Ron Lovett. Ron is a Canadian entrepreneur. He's host of the Scaling Culture podcast and author of two books, including Scaling Culture.
00:00:53:11 - 00:01:13:07
Andreas
And I actually read his book and I was recommended to him, so I definitely had to invite him to the podcast. Ron started his business at 21, which became a Halifax based security guard company, which he grew to over three and a half thousand staff across Canada, and he sold it at a 24x multiple.
00:01:13:09 - 00:01:42:03
Andreas
And he's currently the CEO and as he tells me, the chief community officer of VIDA Living, whose purpose it is to revolutionize affordable communities across North America. He's also the father of three kids and a huge foodie. He loves to cook and he travels to eat and cook. He recently came back from France and he was shortlisted in one of the 12 cooks in his area in Masterchef Canada.
00:01:42:05 - 00:01:47:03
Andreas
So with all of that, very welcome to the Rethink Culture podcast, Ron.
00:01:47:03 - 00:01:52:03
Ron
Thanks, Andreas. Thanks for having me. I appreciate that. And thanks for the kind words.
00:01:52:03 - 00:02:00:18
Andreas
So where do we start? When did culture become important to you? When do you start thinking about
00:02:00:18 - 00:02:01:10
Ron
Yeah.
00:02:01:10 - 00:02:03:15
Andreas
culture and become intentional about it?
00:02:03:15 - 00:02:38:22
Ron
That's a really great question that I don't think I've been asked for a while. So, you know, when I think back to the security company that is, so we're in the physical guarding space, right? We would do physical guarding for hospitals, shopping centers, bodyguard work. And, you know, you don't know what you don't know, right? And when I started that company, I believed that the transaction of me paying you as an employee would be enough for you to be thankful enough and perform your work.
00:02:39:04 - 00:02:58:12
Ron
And I think that as young entrepreneurs, we kind of think that, and I certainly did. And then eventually you get to a place where the most stressful thing about your work is the people. You know, I always say like it's, the soft stuff, being the people side, is the hard stuff. It's, you'll always find capital, you'll always find customers.
00:02:58:14 - 00:03:29:15
Ron
But managing, getting the right employees, getting them working well together, enjoying that for the most part, enjoying the ride with them and performing something and being aligned to do something together, that's very difficult. And there was nothing at that time that was helpful. I mean, that was early 2000s. And I would say that even when the word culture was used back then, it was really used in this, like, oh God, that’s fluffy. Like that's BS, you know?
00:03:29:17 - 00:03:56:08
Ron
And my first aha moment of like, I wonder if there's a different way was actually reading the book Nuts! by Southwest Air. I don't know who wrote the book, actually, but it was about Herb Kelleher, who's passed away. And I just thought, wow, you know, there's always this moment, which I don't know if it was in my second book, but I'm reading this book. I was, I was coming back from Florida and, and flying through New York and I had,
00:03:56:14 - 00:04:15:12
Ron
I was at the end of the book, and I just read Andreas, about Herb Kelleher wrote an email to their entire staff. I think I can't remember the exact story, Delta or one of these airlines had dropped their pricing and he wrote an email and he said, and a memo, he said, we are at war.
00:04:15:12 - 00:04:39:13
Ron
We all need to band together. We need to execute service like our customers have never seen. We are in the battlefield. And the next day as the book says, people from, the folks that are on the front lines checking customers in, pilots, folks putting the baggage on the plane, they came to work with war paint on. And I thought, really, you know? I just thought, that's incredible.
00:04:39:13 - 00:04:58:10
Ron
I'm like, is that true? So, you know, this is interesting. I was walking through flying from Florida back to Halifax. I'm in New York on a layover. I had never flown Southwest Airlines. I couldn't put the book down, but I just finished this part. I had maybe two chapters left, and I walked by a counter and there's a young man at the counter.
00:04:58:12 - 00:05:20:13
Ron
And so, I want to call BS. Is this real, is my question, you know, because sometimes I think there's fluff. I think sometimes you talk to CEOs, you’re like really, you say this, but let's look under the hood. What's really going on? Would your employee say that? And so anyway, I go to the counter and this gentleman's there, and I go up to him, I've got the book behind my back.
00:05:20:15 - 00:05:41:01
Ron
And I said, excuse me, I'd like to ask you a question. He says, Yeah, what is it? I said, Do you like the company you work for? And he looks at me confused, he says, What? I said, Southwest Airlines. Do you like the company you work for? I press him and he says, Sir, I don't know if you're looking for a job, but I can tell you this is the best goddamn company to work for on the planet.
00:05:41:01 - 00:05:55:00
Ron
And I was like, I'm sold. I mean, we have, I just, at that point thought they did it. And they, you know, I read this book, this guy, I don't even know if he read the book, but he loves his work and he's proud and he's, you know, and I just thought, I don't have that, I need that.
00:05:55:00 - 00:06:07:15
Ron
And so, I then aspired to change everything to do that. And I knew, Andreas, that we had an uphill battle, and it was going to be a lot more challenging and only because, you know,
00:06:07:15 - 00:06:09:07
Andreas
How many people were you at the time? Sorry.
00:06:09:07 - 00:06:22:14
Ron
Yeah, I don't know. Probably, yeah, there was 600, you know, something like that. And, but so I knew we had an uphill battle because Southwest Airlines, they would pay their employees much more than I could ever afford.
00:06:22:14 - 00:06:41:13
Ron
Right. You're talking security guards that make $11 an hour, that don't meet me. There's no manager at the airport or at this. You know, there's they work at our customer space in a mall. They do a 12 hour shift and hand their keys to someone else. And I just thought, we have a lot of work to do. You know, I believe this now and we are going to have to figure this out.
00:06:41:13 - 00:07:00:22
Ron
And so, I was on a mission to do that and then started the, you know, you probably know some of the story, study companies like Starbucks and they were our competitor. After I read Frances Frei's book, you know, Uncommon Service, I thought, you know, our competitor’s not in the space, we have to be the best at customer service and Starbucks is the competitor.
00:07:00:22 - 00:07:22:15
Ron
And let's study them. And so, I became very, you know, you know, very focused on culture. And that was a big aha moment for me. And I look in the mirror moment as a CEO that said, I'm not going to hire someone to do this. I need to do this. This is the way forward. And that book was my, it was a pivotal moment for me where I was, you know, I certainly was in a place to think I'm not enjoying it.
00:07:22:17 - 00:07:41:16
Ron
And I can tell you that if you are a CEO or leader and you're saying that, and by the way, you're saying it consistently, I'm not enjoying this, it’s draining my energy. You need to look at your leadership. You need to look at your company. It's in your control. And so, it was a big a big look in the mirror moment.
00:07:41:16 - 00:07:49:11
Andreas
And what was the arc from that moment to you writing a book on culture?
00:07:49:11 - 00:07:50:04
Ron
Well, I mean,
00:07:50:04 - 00:07:55:00
Andreas
Because you were heavily invested when you wrote the book, right?
00:07:55:00 - 00:08:22:21
Ron
Yeah. You know, it was interesting. So, you know, and we talked before we started. So, my first book, Outrageous Empowerment, the first book I wanted to... There was two things. One, I love stories, right? I love a good story. I love, you know, Phil Knight's Shoe Dog. Love it. I talk about and there's just so many business story books that people were writing at the end of the journey or close to the end.
00:08:22:23 - 00:08:39:13
Ron
And I thought, you know, why wouldn't I, as you know, life comes in chapters and why not write about a chapter that to me was a very impactful, it had a start, starting a company and an end. I sold that business. I was 36 years old, and I had my first child, and I had learned so much.
00:08:39:13 - 00:09:05:03
Ron
This was not an arc. This was a roller coaster up and down. And I thought, you know, the book was meant to tell that story, and it was meant to tell people, look, you, absolutely, if I could do this in private security, you can do this. It certainly lacked the how, which is the second book, which is that you read, Scaling Culture, which is the follow-up book.
00:09:05:03 - 00:09:24:14
Ron
But this story was just to be like, it's not easy. I fell on my face and fell again and fell again and learned and adjusted and learned. And then finally we caught some momentum and things were different. These security guards, they were what I call passionate stakeholders. They didn't have equity in the company. They had a stake. They had a voice, they had a stake.
00:09:24:14 - 00:09:29:19
Ron
And that was a very different business. And people said you couldn't do it with security guards. Well, we did it.
00:09:32:01 - 00:10:04:23
Andreas
Quick digression. I had someone on the podcast a few episodes ago talk about turning a waste management business into a service first business. And he started in waste management because it was a business that was in dire need of a service first attitude. And but, I mean, it goes without saying. I think any business can have a service first attitude.
00:10:05:01 - 00:10:14:22
Andreas
My my question is how how did you start turning around? There's probably culture by default into culture by design.
00:10:14:22 - 00:10:33:14
Ron
Yeah. So that is, it's interesting because that moment, and I see this in leaders and entrepreneurs, when they start to be like, oh, something needs to happen now. And then when they start to go to the other side, I'll call it, a different type of leadership to believe and lean into culture.
00:10:33:16 - 00:10:51:12
Ron
It's pain. It's pain because what happens, and I wrote a book, this is my first book, I don't know about the second, but I had to start from scratch. I had to rebuild the company with individuals that were aligned with that vision. And so, the entire leadership team had to go. Now this is what I'm talking about, Andrea, is this.
00:10:51:12 - 00:11:09:08
Ron
Most people don't have that type of courage. They stop in their tracks, and they try to find some balance. Let's bring on some new, fresh people with the old people that don't align and, you know, Michelle's been here too long and so is Mardy. And we can't lose them. And they don't, they can't do it.
00:11:09:08 - 00:11:27:15
Ron
And they retreat and they retreat. And I didn't retreat. I kept moving and it was painful. But look, it's worked out. I mean, our culture today, I believe, at VIDA is world-class. We just had our leadership meeting and I said, I don't know a company, and I'm competitive, that beats us in culture. I don't know anybody.
00:11:27:17 - 00:11:42:00
Ron
And, you know, we have to... It doesn't mean that we're at the pinnacle. We have to keep building and growing our culture and updating and upgrading. But we have a fantastic world-class culture.
00:11:42:07 - 00:11:57:13
Andreas
How do you measure or how do you sense the sentiment or the engagement or the, you know, the gut feeling people have when they walk into work on a Monday morning?
00:11:57:13 - 00:12:10:16
Ron
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, we do a few things. One, I just think you can, you can test, you can feel the energy, but every week we do a, a shout out on it. We do have a daily huddle.
00:12:10:16 - 00:12:30:07
Ron
Some people might be familiar with that. So, on Fridays we do a values call out and you would attach something, you know, your high of the weekends and, you know, you’re shadow to a colleague based on a value, and that really get, I mean, it's the most energetic call we have. And so, it's every Friday everyone's like, nobody misses that huddle.
00:12:30:07 - 00:12:51:06
Ron
Everyone's there. Everyone's like, you know, is so excited to praise their coworkers and hoping they get a little praise and hope that their work, you know, was fruitful for the week. And then, you know, it's interesting, when we were talking earlier, I pulled out a sheet. So, we would do a much deeper dive. We would call it like a VIDA vibe check.
00:12:51:06 - 00:12:53:01
Ron
It's our name for survey.
00:12:53:01 - 00:13:16:22
Ron
And I'll share some of the questions. So, our last few surveys, we thought, look, let's practice what we preach. Let's ask some questions that we might be scared to get the answer to. And I think that's important. These questions, by the way, and I'll read a few to you, if I had asked these questions when I started my culture journey, I mean, I don't even know...
00:13:16:22 - 00:13:19:04
Andreas
You'd be on the floor.
00:13:19:07 - 00:13:20:20
Ron
100%, right?
00:13:20:22 - 00:13:39:08
Ron
Now, I feel very confident. So, you know, here's a few questions. Do you mind if I flip through a few? Because I think they're great. I'm proud that we ask these questions. So, my work at VIDA is meaningful. And by the way, you might have some of these questions in your survey. I'm proud to tell others I work at VIDA.
00:13:39:10 - 00:14:05:23
Ron
I feel that the leadership team at VIDA cares about my well-being. Working at VIDA has added significant value to my life. That's a big question. Working at VIDA has been beneficial to my mental health. Try asking that question. I think a lot of leaders wouldn’t do it. Working at VIDA has been beneficial to my physical health. I feel connected to my colleagues.
00:14:06:01 - 00:14:27:06
Ron
Working at VIDA has allowed me to give significant value to my family life and I can see myself here in two years. Those are kind of baseline questions and, you know, look, I'm very proud that, you know, our lowest score on this was the one I'm looking at was 4 on mental health. That was our lowest score, 4 to 5, and so we’re scoring quite high.
00:14:27:06 - 00:14:30:08
Ron
And then we would sit you know, our process is very transparent.
00:14:30:08 - 00:14:43:13
Ron
We get an entire group together. We go through the score, and we say, hey, 4, it doesn't matter that it was a 4 to 5. And some people might praise that. It's our lowest score. Let's talk about what we can do to move the needle. Let's collaborate around that.
00:14:43:15 - 00:15:05:09
Ron
So, because we know, and I'm sure you know this with your new business is, it's what, you know, the biggest thing you can do from a failure standpoint is not to ask the questions. It's to do nothing with the answers. I mean, that is just the worst. And so, it's that open town hall, open, transparent discussion about the data and about a collective discussion about what you can do about that.
00:15:05:15 - 00:15:31:12
Ron
And then a follow-up with thanks, that was great. Here's what we're doing and let's check it again. And it's an important flywheel. I'll go to Jim Collins’ Flywheel. You need to have that same type of thing with the data and execution. So yeah, we're really proud. And you know, I've never heard anybody ask those questions before, those specific ones. And so, we really wanted to get to the meat and say, look, if we're saying we're world class, we damn well better be world class.
00:15:31:12 - 00:15:34:15
Ron
And so, it's good. We're feeling very proud.
00:15:34:15 - 00:16:10:12
Andreas
I remember one of Arnie Malham’s practices is to have every single employee comment, reply to, publicly, at least within the company. And I think it's in his book. If not, I heard that from him. But he says that you should not read these comments on your own. You should definitely have someone sitting next to you because some of them are pretty, you know, difficult to digest, especially at the beginning when he started changing his culture.
00:16:10:14 - 00:16:22:22
Andreas
But that yeah, that's probably the kind of most extreme you can get in being super transparent with everything because, you know, people can be very vocal and opinionated.
00:16:22:22 - 00:16:34:23
Ron
And you're right. And Arnie, you know, I can tell you that if Arnie was to build a new business today, he wouldn't go through that same, you know, that same cliff of those types of comments. It would just be different. He would be aligned from the beginning.
00:16:34:23 - 00:16:55:14
Ron
Know who he’s screening for, for alignment, know how to manage better. We all go through that. I don't go through that anymore either, you know, and so it's, it doesn't mean. Look, no one's perfect. There's people that have bad experiences still at my company today. And then you say what's going on? Is it a misalignment? Let's get to it and let's fix it.
00:16:55:14 - 00:17:15:15
Ron
And sometimes that fix is this is just not your home. You know, I've been using this analogy lately. We're kind of on a rebuild in our finance in Edmonton. We've scaled so quickly. We just blew out the team that we had. And I've been saying that, you know, there's two types of companies. I got this from a friend of mine, Wayne Crowley, he used this analogy.
00:17:15:15 - 00:17:34:14
Ron
You know, VIDA is a pirate ship. And then some companies, huge companies are Navy ships, and it should sometimes recruit a Navy member to get on the pirate ship. That just doesn't work. It's very challenging to have someone come from the Navy and get on the pirate ship where you're just trying to figure it out and you're moving all the time.
00:17:34:14 - 00:18:08:19
Ron
The wind's changing and you don't know what direction you're going in. And so, you, that's also the, those are different cultures. A Navy ship and a pirate ship. Right? And so, you know, it's nice. We... Jodi Tanner, who's one of our partners in the business and leads our people in culture, we were going through a set of interviews not too long ago, and I was talking to an individual and I, we try to, in some cases talk someone out of the job, say this is really what it is and it's either going to draw you in or deflect you.
00:18:08:19 - 00:18:32:05
Ron
And Arnie talks about that. And she was excited on the call. I said, great. Well, you think about this discussion for 24 hours and let’s circle back. She called Jodi and said, not for me. Perfect. Perfect. Because if we didn't find it now, we're going to find it at some point. And so, your job is to, once you get your culture set, it should be divisive, it should be attract or detract.
00:18:32:05 - 00:18:48:05
Ron
And that's okay. You have to be okay with that. I think that's also a moment Andreas that even for me was like, some people don't want to be here. Is it wrong? No, it's not wrong. It's okay. Keep moving. Doesn't mean you don't need adjustments and you can't do better, but you know what I mean?
00:18:48:05 - 00:19:20:16
Andreas
And something else I read in these thoughts is, approach a misfit with love and not fear. So we're in this together, but our needs might be different. Or this might not be the right company for you. Or you might... Your skills might not be used as well as they could be here. Or, you know... But love, rather than any pressure or any fear or any threats or intimidation.
00:19:20:16 - 00:19:25:12
Andreas
Any, you know, I mean, it's so much easier.
00:19:25:12 - 00:19:28:20
Ron
You are absolutely right.
00:19:28:22 - 00:19:50:10
Ron
And I've been in business now, I'm 44. I've been in business for 23 years. I've never in my life, knock on wood, I've never had a lawyer send someone a letter on my behalf. I have never met someone from HR when I'm dealing with it. That, that's just a copout. I've never received a letter from a lawyer. I've never had someone sue me for wrongful dismissal.
00:19:50:10 - 00:20:10:14
Ron
I mean, I hear about this stuff all the time. I never had it. And I can tell you, I've had some sticky situations and I'm always honest and I always do it with love and an authenticity that, you know, to your point, I've had lots of people that don't work out. And I talk about that. I would say, Andreas, look, let's get you in here.
00:20:10:14 - 00:20:30:13
Ron
But let's no, let's talk about that break up today. So, you know what will happen. One, we’ll never pull the rug from under you. We will have a discussion where this isn't working, and we'll have an open discussion about that. But because we brought you in, we will help you out. And what I mean by that is I will work my contacts to help find you the right home.
00:20:30:15 - 00:20:48:02
Ron
And when you know that you feel pretty darn good, you know, I... We had a guy who was our COO, not too long ago, and, you know, he knew I would help him find a home, and be there for him, and use contacts, and be a reference. And he just found a fantastic job, and we’re high fiving.
00:20:48:02 - 00:21:02:04
Ron
And I'm still supporting him on that human being's journey, whether it's in my company or outside. I've had... You know, I mentioned Jodi before. She left my company and came back. I talk about that story in my first book. And everyone said, how could you take her back?
00:21:02:04 - 00:21:03:21
Andreas
I would struggle with that.
00:21:03:21 - 00:21:14:06
Ron
That would be my ego, because she left to, you know, broaden her wings and try something new.
00:21:14:07 - 00:21:33:14
Ron
Why would I take that personally, that someone wanted to try something a little different, and then said it wasn't for me, and came back, and said... She was a fantastic employee, went to try something different and came back and said it wasn't for me, I want to come home, and no problem. I think that would be a big mistake if my ego said no, you're going to learn your lesson.
00:21:33:14 - 00:21:37:00
Ron
You left. So, I don't I just don't look at it like that.
00:21:37:00 - 00:21:42:15
Andreas
I think it requires either permissiveness or courage. And I think in your case, is courage.
00:21:42:15 - 00:21:48:18
Ron
Could be, because I don't even know what permissi-, I can't even say the word. I'm dyslexic, so I'm going to go with courage.
00:21:48:18 - 00:22:10:12
Andreas
One other thing, actually, there's lots of things I wanted to ask you about your book, because you have some great stories and not just stories but how to's on building in building great culture. So one of the phrases or words I liked is instimacy, which is instantly building trust and connection.
00:22:10:13 - 00:22:12:04
Andreas
Can you talk to us about that?
00:22:12:04 - 00:22:29:21
Ron
Yeah. I just think everything starts with trust, right? And, you know, I always tell the story, you probably read about it in the book, where I had hired my first COO and we had built this new office, and he came to me and, you know, I hired him because I need... I was mid-twenties.
00:22:29:21 - 00:22:51:21
Ron
He was 60, worked for Coca-Cola. I was like, I need someone who and he's a fantastic guy, by the way. Very kind of old school. I'll call it old school leader, but a good leader. And he came to me one day as he was building this office and he said. Ron, you know, I hope you don't mind. I'd like this quote approved for $365 to put a window in my office.
00:22:51:21 - 00:23:07:08
Ron
These are all solid doors. I think it sends the wrong message. And I'm like one door with a window in it. I'm like, fine, this guy knows what he's doing. I approve the thing. So, he's got the window. I used to have a sign above my door, and I'm late twenties. And by the way, back then I had three cell phones.
00:23:07:08 - 00:23:20:17
Ron
Vancouver, Halifax, Toronto rang 24/7, office going 24/7. I mean, this was me, right? It was my problem. But I didn't know that at the time. You don't know what you don't know. You just think it's everybody else. And so, in your company and it's all BS.
00:23:20:17 - 00:23:49:01
Ron
And so anyway, so he comes to me 30 days later he says, look, Ron, you know, I don’t want you to take this the wrong way, but you have a sign outside your door, and it says, please do not disturb when this door’s closed. I think it sends the wrong message. I think it's counterproductive to what we're trying to do. I know culture’s important to you and you just don't... I don't think that's landing well, can you take that down? I'm like, oh, my God. Like, I take it down. 30-60 days later, he comes in, he's fuming, Andreas.
00:23:49:01 - 00:24:09:07
Ron
He can't believe what's going on. I said, what’s going on? He said, I don't, I don't know what's happening here. He said, I have a window in my door and my door’s mostly open. You had a sign on your door that said, do not disturb and your door’s closed. But yet when someone has an issue, when they really need to talk something through, they come and see you.
00:24:09:07 - 00:24:29:03
Ron
I don't get it. And I said, This is it. The window has nothing to do with it. The sign has nothing to do. It is because, Dave, when someone joins this company, I spend time with them. I take them out for a coffee, and I ask them, I don't have what I call home court advantage. Come to my desk and sit on the other side and be intimidated.
00:24:29:03 - 00:24:46:22
Ron
That's not what I'm talking about. That doesn't create that intimacy. You know, it is, where would you like to go? Hey, Andreas, I'd like to take you for a coffee. What's your favorite lunch spot? Your favorite coffee spot? That you're comfortable. We go there and the conversation starts, and I will say, how was your weekend? And you said, it's great.
00:24:46:22 - 00:25:03:06
Ron
It's great, sir. How was yours? And I’ll say, you know, not great. You know, my daughter was sick. She wasn't feeling well. I was up all night, really stressed me. I'm new using feelings. I was excited. I was stressed. This isn't drama, it's not oversharing. I'm just telling you that I'm human. I was stressed. I was worried about her.
00:25:03:10 - 00:25:25:12
Ron
And they're like, oh, this is a real conversation like, you, okay. And then they'll say, Yeah, you know, it's interesting. My uncle wasn't feeling well and also had COVID, whatever we're talking about. And on the water line, you know, John Ferguson is one of my advisors at NASCAR, beautiful language. He says bring the waterline down and that's what you do.
00:25:25:13 - 00:25:47:17
Ron
You bring the waterline down to have an open discussion. And that's where the connection starts. It's absolutely where it starts. And so, you know, we work on that. It's very important. You have to be very intentional about that connection. It should be in your calendar. You need to be intentional checking in with people. And as a leader, you should be spending a lot of your time doing that.
00:25:48:07 - 00:25:51:00
Andreas
I recently tried another technique
00:25:51:00 - 00:26:24:04
Andreas
for creating instimacy in a group, which we use a lot in EO, in the Entrepreneurs’ organization called Lifelines. So I had the group of presidents from different chapters who really hadn't met, knew very little about each other. And we practiced lifelines over an hour, an hour and a half. And that involved everyone spending 5 to 7 minutes going through two highs and two lows in their life.
00:26:24:06 - 00:27:07:14
Andreas
No preparation, just, you know, whatever you have the top of mind. and afterwards, one of the presidents said this was one of the deepest sharings I have had in three years. And that was a group of people he never had met before. So it's it's a power tool. You know, so whether it is spending time face to face with a person or using lifelines or something else, this connection, this human connection, it's difficult to measure, but it works well where everything starts.
00:27:07:19 - 00:27:13:08
Andreas
Trust, commitment, results, teamwork, everything.
00:27:13:08 - 00:27:16:07
Ron
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
00:27:17:01 - 00:27:36:04
Andreas
I want to go into one of the other things that I learned from your book, which is funishments, which is, I think, fun punishments. Right? So I want to ask you talk about when to use them and when not to. So please tell us more.
00:27:36:04 - 00:27:48:20
Ron
Yeah. So, this is, this is just an idea that we came up with ages ago when I had the security company which is like the command and control environment is like, you know, it's the care to the stick. If you do this, we give you a bonus.
00:27:48:20 - 00:28:07:04
Ron
If you don’t, you're going to be fired, you know. And we thought, look it's important, performance is important. We want people to show up and do their best. And so, we came up with this concept called the funishment, which is you would commit to your funishment. And so, we'd say, okay, you're a salesperson Andreas, and it's okay. There's five salespeople.
00:28:07:04 - 00:28:22:05
Ron
And the sales goal is to make 100,000 in revenue over the next quarter, which okay, is that what you're committed to? Okay, so you're buying into the process. Change management, very important. I'm not telling you what you have to do. Let's make sure and if it's wrong, we can debate that. But let's say we all agree to 100 and it's okay.
00:28:22:07 - 00:28:40:13
Ron
What are you putting on the table if you don't hit your goal, let's have fun here. Let's do a funishment where something that would make you uncomfortable. Is it that you have to lip-sync in front of the group, that you have to, you know, donate $1,000 to Donald Trump's, you know, campaign? What is going to make you uncomfortable?
00:28:40:14 - 00:28:56:19
Ron
And let's get let's have some fun with this. And so, this, it also shows you behind the scenes like I don't want to do a lip sync. I'm very kind of, I don’t want to sing. I don’t want to dance like, you know, so you can kind of have some fun. You get to know someone better and you know, you can really have some fun with this.
00:28:56:19 - 00:29:12:07
Ron
And so, you know, I think that the process is important. Someone has to buy into this, say, okay, yeah, I don't want to do this. And... But I can tell you that people step up their game when they commit to some type of funishment, a fun punishment that they don't want to do. I certainly do too.
00:29:12:07 - 00:29:32:10
Ron
I make commitments very fun and uncomfortable things that are kind of fun we can laugh at. And it just takes the… It brings out waterline it down again, right? It kind of says, okay, let's have some fun with this. You know? And I think there is you know, I think people just take themselves too seriously. And I'm changing directions a little bit here.
00:29:32:10 - 00:29:51:02
Ron
But, you know, a lot of people and leaders know the exercise. Start, stop, continue, right? You get to a group of people that know each other, have been working with each other and you say, look, let's get together. What should you start doing? What should you stop doing? What should you continue to do? We just did this with our some of our key leaders on Wednesday of this week.
00:29:51:04 - 00:30:05:06
Ron
And I start off and I say, okay, I've got the tissue. Let's go. Give it to me. What do you got? You know, I'm just bringing the water line down them. And people are laughing because they know it's going to be uncomfortable. And I'm going first as the leader. I talk about that in my book and how to build trust.
00:30:05:06 - 00:30:17:07
Ron
Big moments. You go first and, you know, so the funishment is the same type of thing. I would bring my own funishment, my own commitment first when I use that process. And yeah, it's a fantastic tool.
00:30:17:07 - 00:30:43:15
Andreas
I remember one of our facilitators at the GLC Global Leadership Conference Accelerator track. I think it was Elliot Jacobs, and he said anyone who's late after the doors close, and he was like, literally five, four, three, two, one, like holding the door knob and counting the seconds until the doors close.
00:30:43:15 - 00:31:01:14
Andreas
And, you know, whoever is late is, is, is therefore a funishment. So he says whoever's late has to stand up and sing their national anthem. And if you're very late, you have to also dance while doing that.
00:31:01:14 - 00:31:13:01
Ron
Oof, bad. I would never chose that. That's a bad one. Yeah. Right. It's just having fun and you know, we don't have to take ourselves and the company so seriously.
00:31:13:01 - 00:31:26:08
Ron
Let's just take the water temperature down. Why? Why can't we? Why can't that be a fun story when someone just missed the mark a little bit? It should be a fun story. Oh, yeah. Ron had to get out and do this thing. It was fun. And look, let's not take ourselves too seriously.
00:31:26:22 - 00:31:58:21
Andreas
And at the end of the day, when we're vulnerable, when we are in that case, silly and fun and just ourselves or the child part of ourselves, we connect. We connect so much more deeply as humans. Like, I think it was Socrates maybe, who said that you learn more from a an hour of watching someone play rather than from a day of discussions, something along these lines.
00:31:58:21 - 00:31:59:23
Ron
Yeah, I believe that.
00:31:59:23 - 00:32:00:23
Andreas
Yeah.
00:32:01:10 - 00:32:23:18
Ron
Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. You know, I. You know, I back to vulnerability, and I think this came up a lot during the pandemic. And I would say that, you know, in the old, I’m not gonna say old days, even when I started in my early twenties vulnerability equaled weakness in my head. Today, vulnerability equals bravery, right?
00:32:23:20 - 00:32:45:23
Ron
And connectivity. And so, I do talk about that. When should you go first and when should you go last? And as a leader and it's very important, you know, when you have really troubling news, you should go first. When you're uncertain, you should go first, when you need to open up and talk to the company about some challenges that the company has had.
00:32:45:23 - 00:33:05:03
Ron
You should go first. When you're collaborating with your team, when you're getting ideas, you should go last. When you're having a discussion, you should go last. You know, there's times to go first and there's times to go last. But when you're being vulnerable, you go first. There's a vulnerable component. In a lot of cases, you should go first as the leader.
00:33:05:03 - 00:33:28:03
Andreas
It's a very good framework when you should go first and last. And these are very conscious decisions to be made by a leader. And that's what you expect of a leader to be there when they need to protect the team and show the way and show the confidence and the conviction and the
00:33:28:03 - 00:33:38:13
Andreas
anticipation of the challenges and at the same time be the last to, you know, be the guy with a shiny new idea.
00:33:38:15 - 00:33:43:13
Andreas
No, thank you. I mean, we have plenty of those, so leader needs to speak less. Yeah, absolutely.
00:33:43:13 - 00:33:45:21
Ron
You got it. Absolutely. Yeah.
00:33:45:21 - 00:33:48:21
Andreas
Moving on to something else, Ron,
00:33:48:21 - 00:33:50:01
Andreas
one of the
00:33:50:01 - 00:34:14:15
Andreas
most inspiring moments in a book for me recently was reading Seth Godin's book, Song of Significance, where he talks about essentially the need for conscious leadership. And he asks a question at the very beginning, which is what would it take to build a company that is someone's best job ever?
00:34:14:17 - 00:34:50:04
Andreas
And to me, that's an intellectual question. That is actually something very tangible. So if and I set the challenge for myself, I said, for my new business, I want to create an environment that is at least for someone, their best job ever. And so my question to you is, if you were to create a new business, I mean, you created VIDA recently, but how would you go about saying, what are the like three things or one thing that need to be in place?
00:34:50:04 - 00:35:09:16
Ron
Yeah, yeah. So, when I complete... I haven’t read the book. Sounds like a great book. I'll order it and I would completely agree and completely doing that like, you know, I felt, and I will answer your question, but I felt my past business because it was price sensitive. We had to bid on contracts which we had to pay humans a lower amount to get the contract.
00:35:09:16 - 00:35:37:23
Ron
I had handcuffs on, and I thought, not round two, I'm going to do this. I'm going to build the best damn culture on the planet and build a global brand and scale this thing significantly. And so, to start a company to do the things that you read about or sort of that we spoke about, that Arnie went through, I just I'm not going to open the doors until I have my purpose baked in, revolutionize, affordable communities.
00:35:37:23 - 00:35:56:16
Ron
My values. I'm going to go back. I'm going to upgrade my values from where they used to be. Let's push the boundaries on these values and upgrade those and know that those are the values day one before I open the doors. Right. Most companies I, I had never had the opportunity to do that, and most don't. I did it on year 11 and it was horrible.
00:35:56:16 - 00:36:22:22
Ron
It was painful. Arnie, it was painful for him, too. And so be had 10,000 units by 2027. I mean, these are big, these are foundational pieces. And then last is I really, I love Jim Collins Flywheel because all these are a huge pie in the sky. And then you have that flywheel. What do you do that's going to do the next thing that connects the next thing, that creates a domino effect and you have this flywheel turning in your business.
00:36:22:22 - 00:36:37:15
Ron
That's for me to balance and have focus in the business. And so those are the kind of four things that we built before opening the doors. And it is a game changer. A game changer, right?
00:36:38:14 - 00:36:53:07
Andreas
And when it comes to people who are not intentional yet about their culture, what would you say they have to rethink?
00:36:53:07 - 00:36:56:17
Ron
Yeah. So, when you say intentional that are just, they have a culture by default
00:36:56:17 - 00:36:58:05
Andreas
they have a culture by default, yeah.
00:36:58:05 - 00:37:08:07
Ron
Yeah, right. So, you know I think that I’m gonna use maybe strong language if you don't believe well let me go to a quote for a sec.
00:37:08:09 - 00:37:28:22
Ron
You're on one or you're on one side of this quote or the other. If you're listening, you're on one or the other side of this quote and the quote is, none of us will build great companies. We will lead incredible people who will build great companies. You either agree with that or you don't. If you don't, you are in a culture.
00:37:29:00 - 00:37:46:10
Ron
You might actually be designing a big command and control culture where you are the big dog, and you make all the decisions. So, you actually might be in the design phase. You might, but I wouldn't agree with that of design or you're in default or you're designing the other culture and the other side's saying, Yeah, I need to build this environment where these people love to work here.
00:37:46:10 - 00:38:11:22
Ron
They are a passionate stakeholder, they enjoy it. It permeates into their family life, their community, you know? And so, it's a choice. It's a conscious choice, right? And so, my suggestion is if you are on one side saying, okay, I agree, I'm going to just lead people, they're building the business, I'm just leading them to do that. Then you have to look at yourself in the mirror and say, what is the delta between where we are and where we're going?
00:38:11:22 - 00:38:31:20
Ron
And usually, by the way, the and this is a high, high level, but gives context to it. It's building your values, screening for those values, making sure because and I talk about this in my book, I went through the process of, you know, building our values up, but not screening for them. Then you'd show up, Andreas, and then we'd be completely disconnected.
00:38:31:20 - 00:38:50:13
Ron
I'm like, why? Why? Why did I do this? You know, back to my earlier story. Someone left in... Today they'll leave in a conversation before they show up in the second interview. Knowing this culture is not for me. It's fantastic. Before, it was come in here and let me shove our culture down your throat. Doesn't work, that, you're rolling the dice, right?
00:38:50:13 - 00:39:19:17
Ron
So, it's build your values, screen for the values. Praise or coach. Someone aligned behaves in a way that really aligns with something internally or externally with the customer, stop, everybody, Andreas did this thing, fantastic. This is a new standard. Let's go or Andreas, yesterday. Let's have a private conversation. And the values allow this coaching tool that we didn't have before because it used to be I don't like what you did yesterday.
00:39:19:17 - 00:39:44:20
Ron
Today is our values of relentless improvement. Tell me how what you did yesterday would align with that. Walk me through that. And so, this creates it's not me or you, it's us aligning with the values of a company, right. And if you do that, you will build and sustain your values of the organization. So it's create values.
00:39:44:22 - 00:40:06:06
Ron
I did miss a part. Screen for the values, on-board, which I missed originally, on-board. Make sure they do understand the values, the stories. What has worked. What hasn't worked, where they participate in those values, and then coaching and praising based on values. And so, it's actually that simple, right? Let's think about that. It's there's some work to be done in those steps.
00:40:06:08 - 00:40:18:12
Ron
Well, I don't have an on-boarding, I don't have values. Great. Well, get to it. Take my book, Outrageous Empowerment, read our values and rinse and repeat. Steal what you want. It's who you want to be in the future, not who you are today.
00:40:18:12 - 00:40:47:22
Andreas
A couple of thoughts on that. Firstly, I think your book has a very thoughtful and comprehensive section on coaching. It's. It's short and sweet, and I think it covers a lot of ground on what you need to be a good coach. The other thing is, I think the peer accountability, which I've really learned through EO, is such a powerful tool.
00:40:48:00 - 00:41:08:16
Andreas
So too the example you mentioned before. Instead of saying to someone, Well, I didn't like your behavior, you say, Well, how does your behavior relate to the values of the company that we've all committed to? That is an accountability story. Like we built this company. You joined this company knowing that these are the values and we all agreed to them.
00:41:08:18 - 00:41:41:00
Andreas
So the story of accountability is so much more powerful because you refer or both people refer with love, not fear to a common agreement, and they just hold each other accountable to that common agreement. And then it's not this. There's no discussion about why or how, but it is, okay, let's stick to what we agreed or let's part ways.
00:41:41:02 - 00:42:07:02
Andreas
And I have presidents in my region. So this year I'm area director in Europe and EO and have presidents saying, you know, how can I get my board, which is a board of volunteers, you know, entrepreneurs volunteers, to do this and to do that. And I say, you know, you start with a joint agreement. What do we want our rhythms to be or our habits, or how often do we want to show up?
00:42:07:04 - 00:42:20:20
Andreas
How often do we want to meet together physically, virtually, whatever. And once we agree, these norms, then we just hold each other accountable and there's no conflict.
00:42:20:20 - 00:42:30:08
Ron
Well, and the other part I would add is let's agree now to what happens if we don't, whether it's a funishment or we're going to part ways or let's just talk about that.
00:42:30:08 - 00:42:49:10
Ron
Let's say if we can't get there, no problem. Like, let's get through it now. And you also bring that water line down to say it's there's no pressure. We've talked today about if this doesn't work out and what how am I going to show up? So, if it doesn't if it if you can't commit, you're making a choice to find a new home.
00:42:49:12 - 00:42:57:06
Ron
But that's okay, by the way. Let me help you find it. And here's how I can show up for you in that process. It puts a nice bow on it.
00:42:57:06 - 00:43:10:16
Andreas
So, Ron. As we prepare to close, what would be something you'd recommend for our listeners? Like a book or something you watched or read recently?
00:43:10:16 - 00:43:24:09
Ron
So, I'm kind of you know, I'm watching a lot of Ray Dalio and Principles and his book is fantastic. It's like a Bible to me. I’m just really slowly reading it, taking my time.
00:43:24:11 - 00:43:47:14
Ron
I love it. I love Jim Collins BE 2.0. The update of that book is fantastic. Those are probably the two latest kind of culture book. I'm also reading an HBR talent book. It's I think, some of the best articles on talent. I'm into that book right now and there's some really interesting thoughts and process in there. So, I'm always, you know.
00:43:47:20 - 00:44:05:20
Ron
I like when I when I get uncomfortable, it's like, okay, I haven’t thought about that. Okay. I need to think about that. I'm getting uncomfortable and that's that that's always a good sign. So those books, but I would call some of that stuff very advanced, you know, and I have to just caution people that are listening. You know, it's a process.
00:44:05:20 - 00:44:28:20
Ron
You can't skip the line. What I mean by that is and be cautious to move too far ahead in this in this process. It's one step at a time. It's create the values first. See who who's lighting up on this and who's not. You know, and because you know and I have unlimited vacation, mandatory life days, I mean, it's very unorthodox and but we started by pulling straws and who was getting a half day off.
00:44:28:20 - 00:44:47:04
Ron
Like that's where it started, right? And sometimes I forget, and I know that sometimes my messages will alienate some people. And it's either that will never work in my industry, our people would never be interested in that. And look, I'm not suggesting you do what I do, but you should find your own way of bringing out the best in people.
00:44:47:04 - 00:45:07:20
Ron
Because, you know, I can tell you that Ron Lovett 2.0 is a different leader. You know, I believe in two things today that maybe I didn't before I went back to the transactional, you know, approach of I pay you and for that I should get performance and you should be happy and you should be you know, that's all BS.
00:45:07:20 - 00:45:30:13
Ron
Today I believe that, look, I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that you have a beautiful experience working with me and we will do what we can to impact and add value to you. Your life balance, your mental health, your physical health. Everything we can. We’ll push you. You're learning. But for that, we do expect you to perform very well here.
00:45:30:14 - 00:45:55:03
Ron
This is not a country club. It's a high performing environment. It's going to be uncomfortable. We are going to push you sometimes like I did with a trainer this morning. I'm not getting results when I'm not pushing and grunting and... Forget it. Right? So that's one which I think is really important. And the second thing is I also look at people as the whole individual and these messages are connected.
00:45:55:03 - 00:46:18:02
Ron
So, it's not just Andreas the CEO or the CFO or the project manager. It's Andreas the individual who has other things going on. He has children, he has his own struggles with his own family. And we used to really draw a line and say, whatever you do at home is not my business. Now it's my business and how can I help you and how do I help you and your family?
00:46:18:07 - 00:46:34:14
Ron
And what are you looking for your life in the future? And how do I connect that here with the job opportunity and if that and by the way, if these things run out, that's okay, too. And having just opened discussions. So, it's the whole human being versus the transaction of Andreas the employee. You know? I think we have to look beyond that.
00:46:34:14 - 00:46:42:09
Ron
And so that yeah, that's certainly a shift in how I look and in my leadership style.
00:46:42:13 - 00:46:45:16
Andreas
And it's also the shift from HR to culture, right?
00:46:45:16 - 00:46:48:00
Ron
That's right. Yeah. We don't have anybody in HR.
00:46:48:00 - 00:46:52:20
Andreas
we still use HR for all the events, I think,
00:46:52:20 - 00:47:05:03
Ron
Well, you know, let me talk about HR, I was just going to say HR. I'm trying not to swear here. It's just it's an excuse. That's just HR. This HR, everyone needs to be in HR.
00:47:05:03 - 00:47:22:16
Ron
If you if you are a people leader, you have a high influence in your organization, you better have the HR practices, if that's what you want to call it, of leadership and treating people well and coaching. This isn't a go to HR for all that stuff and the culture stuff that’s HR. I mean, some people just still get that wrong.
00:47:22:17 - 00:47:42:02
Ron
Everybody's involved in the culture. Everybody has an impact. If you lead people, you have bigger influence, bigger impact, which equals bigger risk or reward in your organization. It rewards you very well. Or is there's huge risk to a negative impact of a leader that is misaligned with your culture. You should think about that.
00:47:42:02 - 00:47:54:12
Andreas
Ron, there's so much more we could talk about. But I know you're limited for time, and I want to keep it as well punchy to 45 minutes or so, which is where we're at.
00:47:54:13 - 00:48:19:17
Andreas
So thank you for sharing your stories from your from your book and from your life, from your work. And thank you to everyone for listening. Do hit the subscribe button so you don't miss the next few episodes. And don't forget to tell us what you think by emailing rethink@rethinkculture.co. And do keep leading.
00:48:19:17 - 00:48:26:07
Ron
Thanks, Andreas, great podcast, great discussion and keep getting these messages out there.