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"Here as in Heaven."
For more information visit : garden.church
Welcome to Garden Church Podcast. We're in a series in the book of Revelation. We're gonna spend the next 26 weeks doing a deep dive into both how to read and how to interpret this amazing book. Enjoy.
Bill Dogterom:Well, good morning. It's good to be to be with you and to, share in this conversation, build around, arguably, one of the most important books in the New Testament, the book of Revelation, which has unfortunately, because we have not always done the work necessary to unpack what's going on, gotten hijacked and and misused in multiple ways, especially in the last 100 or so years. It is actually a letter, as Darren has made clear, a series of letters to 7 churches that are teetering on the edge of time, and trying to figure out how to be faithful witnesses when the ground is giving way, how to how to, how to how to hang on, when it feels like all is lost, and there's not much hope, and your friends and family are being crushed under the weight of empire when it feels like the mightiest force on earth, the Roman Empire, is bearing down on you particularly. John says, lift up your eyes. There's a force behind that force, and that force has already been defeated.
Bill Dogterom:So so hang in. Don't don't quit. And it begins to anchor it in place with these 7 letters to 7 different churches in what is now Turkey, Asia Minor, in in which kind of the the broad themes of in the meantime are unpacked. How do we live at the edge of time until the consummation of time, until time is no more and is no longer a relevant form of of measurement? We've looked at a couple of these, and we're gonna, before and, today, we're gonna combine 2, because the themes in each of these two letters are are are fairly closely aligned.
Bill Dogterom:I will warn you, we're going to talk about sex today, and and, I don't know how not to do that. I'm gonna try as hard as I can to keep it 13, but it might drift, because I'm old and the filters are are failing. So so that's gonna just let you know. But but but it's probably worthwhile saying why this is an important conversation. Because since the beginning of recorded history, the connection between sexuality and spirituality has been observed and noticed, and it is still a primary point of entry in which the enemy, seeks to take down, God's God's people, because, the gift of desire, even sexual desire is from God, and underneath that gift is the source of it, which is longing for intimacy, for closeness, for deep, profound connection that is non manipulative and non controlling, and can only finally be found in relationship with God.
Bill Dogterom:Well, that idea has has has gotten hijacked by by the enemy who has taken sexual desire and morphed it into lust, which is about possession and conquering and and manipulation and control, and and John wants to recover this for us and and and fully aware of how how it's a problem in the 1st century. We we pretty much got this problem solved in the 21st century, but, you know, as we look back on those poor benighted people 2000 years ago who struggled with sexual challenges, so we look at this, passage, Revelation chapter 2 verse 12, starts it off, where he says, to Pergamum, to the angel, to the messenger, to the pastor of the church in Pergamum, write, these are the words of him who has the sharp, double edged sword. I know where you live, where Satan has his throne. Yet, you remain true to my name, you did not renounce your faith to me, not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city, right where Satan lives. Nevertheless, I have a a a few things against you.
Bill Dogterom:There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to enticed enticed the Israelites to sin so that they would eat food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Repent therefore. Otherwise, I I I will come soon to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. Whoever has ears, let them hear what the spirit says to the churches.
Bill Dogterom:To the one who's victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it. So, Pergamum is a city at this stage, about a 100000 people down from about 150, at its at its peak. It had the distinction, and you'll see how John alludes to this, of being, this kind of the seat of the Roman government in Asia Minor. It was where business was transacted with Rome, and therefore its primary feature was that a temple was constructed to Caesar as the son of God, as the prince of peace, as the deity that gave Pergamum its identity.
Bill Dogterom:It was the only city of the 7 that had the right of capital punishment, as a result of its being part of the imperial cult of the worship of the ancestors. It had a temple mount in the center of the city on which were 2 prominent temples, one to Zeus, the the the god of the lord of lords, and another to a a god whose name, was Asclepius, which was a serpent, a snake, a dragon, which was viewed as the source of healing. So as acts of worship, tame, non poisonous snakes were released into the temple, and people would make pilgrimages to this site where they would spend the night in the temple in the hopes that this snake would crawl over them and thereby bring healing to them. I can I think you can see the imitations of the ways that God operates in in in these kinds of places and practices? So these are the these are the 2 this is why when when when John addresses these people, he says, guys, I I know where you're living.
Bill Dogterom:It's right where Satan has his throne. The temple worshiping the Caesar who was viewed and greeted every morning with Caesar is lord. I know where you live, in the place where Satan has his his his dwelling place, his where he lives in this place of horror. And and and I just I I just gotta tell you guys, you're doing great. You haven't caved.
Bill Dogterom:You haven't given up. You haven't haven't, turned turned away. You didn't renounce your faith, not even in the days when Antipas was was martyred. You you you hung in there. So this first begins as these do, with this commendation.
Bill Dogterom:The challenge, of course, is that it continues on. I know that this being Satan's throne means that your economic well-being depends on your allegiance to the to the gods of the age, particularly to Caesar, your ability to do business, to sell your goods, to even in some cases, buy, a product is dependent on your being part of this this group that worships the Caesar, that worships the idol of financial prosperity and success. Apparently, again, back in the 1st century, they had a problem with the worship of money. I I know. Gratefully, we have moved past that or or not.
Bill Dogterom:It was horrific for these folks, and some of them had lost their children because they had been deemed unworthy parents by the Roman government because they refused to worship Caesar. That's what was happening. And in the face of that horrific situation, John writes to them in the voice of the risen Christ and says, I'm so proud of you. You haven't bailed. You haven't tapped out.
Bill Dogterom:You're still in the game. Nothing will destroy the church from the outside. Nothing can destroy the church from the outside. So John, however, is aware the church can be destroyed from the inside. In fact, that's the only place it's going to be destroyed.
Bill Dogterom:So he says, candidly, guys, though, there's a couple things we need to talk about, specifically. Some of you hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin. This is a reference back to a story in the book of Numbers, when the children of Israel are are are are, beginning to get some some traction, and a Midianite King named Balak, b a l a k, wanted to curse the people of Israel. And so he hired a prophet of God, paid him to pronounce a curse over the people of Israel. And when Balaam went to do this, he was forbidden by God to to do that.
Bill Dogterom:You this is not something you guys you you want to be doing. He tried three times, and every time, he was shut down, but he still wanted the money. And so what he did, I can't curse them. It's it's a it's a no go. It's a nonstarter.
Bill Dogterom:But if you wanna take him down, here's how you do it. You get miss Midian, 2024, and her royal court, you know, the ones that were on on the latest beauty pageant? You get her and her friends to go in and make eyes at those Israelite men. And and they will be drifted, heart attached, led by other parts of their anatomy to intermarry with the daughters of Midian, who now as part of the culture will want to bring their household gods with them and will require their husbands and their children to worship at their gods, and then you'll have them because the God of Israel requires soul worship, and when they compromise, when they worship other gods, when they eat food offered to those idols and thereby participate in the worship of that God, that jealous god won't have any of it. They will pay the price of that.
Bill Dogterom:And so this this is this this understanding of the use of sexuality primarily as a way of of of of of of of compromising Israel's capacity to be a holy people, and and and this compromise, warning against the compromise of sexual behavior, leading hearts away over time. Now, of course, this has has a has a modern form. Joking aside, it's still a predominant problem. What it sources for in our culture is that desire and attraction become identity, and that not only gives permission, but creates the necessity of behavior in keeping with my now sexually defined identity and attraction. God made me this way.
Bill Dogterom:Therefore, I not only have the responsibility, I have the necessity to act out of without ever considering whether what God made actually has a deeper longing, a deeper connection for intimacy and closeness with him that will not be satisfied having been hijacked by lust. And this becomes a significant challenge as our kids are exposed to pornography at at 7 to 9 for boys, 9 to 11 roughly for girls, male and female pornography different, but are are flooded in in the popular culture with the definition of self by desire, because I feel I must, and it comes with a a an implicit permission. And and then in behind that, in behind that is this is this lie. It's just sex. Friends, it's never just sex.
Bill Dogterom:It just, it never is just sex and it's less finally about behavior than it is about personhood. In fact, desire is not enough of a reason to behave in a sexual, love isn't love. That's not how it works. It's not thereby because I'm attracted, because we love each other, therefore, we get a bye on the restrictions. In fact, you guys know this, but sex is actually for something.
Bill Dogterom:God invented it for a reason, and and and and and for that reason, limited the the the relationship within which it wouldn't do catastrophic harm. It's a it's a relationship that is intended to be protected by limiting sex to a relationship in which children, covenant relationship in which children can be conceived, received, nurtured, and released, and then it has 2 supportive elements to it. So procreation, as the primary telos, right, and then, intimacy, to provide that safety for a child to be nurtured to life, and pleasure, which connects the relationship in significance. God's not opposed to any of those things unless you get second or third things first, because when you remove this as the goal, then inevitably it's not intimacy that takes the lead, it's pleasure that takes the lead, and then any and all forms of magnifying that outcome are acceptable and not just permissible, but required in the system. Well, we have an enemy who knows this and plays this card over and over and over again.
Bill Dogterom:It's not like he's creative. It's not like he has to invent new forms, of of temptation. We fall for the same old shell game time after time after time, we're walking down the corridor at the state fair, the county fair, and we think, I think I can beat the game this time. And and John says, no, you can't. Don't step up to the bar.
Bill Dogterom:You can't win this game, and and and and and we think, well well well well well, maybe if I get married. Marriage doesn't fix sexual problems. In fact, I would argue if you haven't learned sexual self control before you get married, it's way harder to learn afterwards. And I will also tell you as an old person, getting old doesn't fix this either. The core issues of long why?
Bill Dogterom:That's the clue, guys. The core issue is not finding somebody to hook up with in a hookup culture. The core issue is finding at the core, at the base, at the root, the longing, only satisfied finally and fully by intimate relationship with God in Christ Jesus, which is why, by the way, is I mean, we think about this, we think about risen Christ receives his precious bride, whom he has purchased out of slavery and redeemed and invites her to join him in that in that consummation of intimacy and identity that enables, the the eternity to roll roll on. And John is just saying, church, don't start sleeping around before you're you have been married to the bridegroom. He invites them to to sit with this in in a single, simple way, because there is, in the old testament particularly, also in the new, however, a real connection between adultery and idolatry.
Bill Dogterom:It's a gateway drug. It opens the way towards compromise in all kinds of other ways. Sexual compromise makes it possible to be absorbed more fully into the culture and pulling us, pulls us away then from from Jesus. And you can understand how challenging this would be in a in a culture in which you gotta go along to get along. I want a paycheck.
Bill Dogterom:I wanna feed my family. I wanna I wanna, be part of the of the community, and the price for that was was participating in these in these, feasts that ended up degenerating into drunken debauchery. Alcohol makes all kinds of stupid much more possible, And we see it lived lived out out out large here. So you can hear your ability to earn a living is tied to your compromise. Your ability to parent your children is tied to compromise.
Bill Dogterom:And John says in the words of the risen Christ, repent. Not everybody, not maybe not even the majority, but enough that the dry rot begins to set in at the base of the church. Cut it out. Cut it out. Repent.
Bill Dogterom:Turn around. Head out in a different direction. He says the same thing. The teaching of the Nicolaitans is largely the same thing, but it's the rationale, the philosophy that makes it possible, which is why when he comes, he comes with the sword of his mouth. His words are going to speak back against the lie that says not only is this possible and permissible, it's necessary.
Bill Dogterom:And then he says, my favorite part of this passage, to the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. Remember the bread that came down out of the heavens when people thought all was lost, when they were gonna die in the wilderness, because they had left their means of survival back in Egypt, God says, I can feed you in the desert. And he says to these people who feel that they have lost their visible means of support, their jobs are gone, their ability to earn an income is gone, god looks at them, tears in his eyes and says, I'll give you the manna. I'll care for you in this, and then I will give you the white stone with a name written on it that only you and I know. It's beautiful image.
Bill Dogterom:There's 7 or 8 different ways of looking at this, but but the one that seems to have the most traction for me is, you know how there's pieces of jewelry now that a lover gives to a loved one with a heart that is split in half with two names on it, and they each one wear as the reminder, that's Whitestone. God says, I'm keeping you close to my heart. Here's a symbol with my name I've got yours with your name written on it. Here's mine with my name written on it. Wear it close.
Bill Dogterom:Keep it close. There's a place of identity in me for you. So this invitation to take seriously the challenges you're faced traps along into this next letter to the church at Thyatira. Verse 18, to the angel, messenger, pastor of the church in Thyatira write, these are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like a blazing fire, whose feet are like burnished bronze. I know your deeds, your love, your faith, your service, your perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you ever did before.
Bill Dogterom:However, I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet and by her teaching, misleads my servants into sexual immorality and eating the food sacrificed to idols. I've given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So, I will cast her on a bed of suffering. I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead, then all the churches will know that I am he who searches the hearts and minds.
Bill Dogterom:I will repay each of you according to your deeds. Now, I say to the rest of you, in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching have not learned Satan's so called secret deep secrets, I will not impose any other burden on you except to hang on to what you have until I come. And to the one who is victorious, does my will right to the end. I give authority over the nations, that one will rule them with an iron scepter, dash them to pieces like pottery, just as I have received authority from my father. I will also give to that one the morning star.
Bill Dogterom:Whoever has ears, let them hear what the spirit says to the churches. I think you can see why we're combining these. The the image in the first one, Balaam and and the seduction of, Israel in the desert. Jezebel was the wife of king Ahab, who, imported the worship of Baal, against whom Elijah's others fought in first and, first and second kings. And she did so by the very same means that worked under Balaam's direction.
Bill Dogterom:Bring bring the worship of Balaam in or excuse me, the worship of Baal in by the use of sexuality as a form of of worship, and sexual compromise as being an appropriate way of managing your resources, because here's the thing, and and Jezebel is is nobody's fool. It's like, yes, of course, we worship Yahweh. We worship the god of Israel. We'll we'll kill as many cows as he wants us to kill, but, hey, can we just hedge our bets a little bit? Can we just maybe just kinda get that rider on the insurance policy just in case Yahweh doesn't come through?
Bill Dogterom:Can we worship Baal just just not that big a deal. Come on. If a a big, strong, great, majestic God like God, surely he can't be bothered by this tiny little, like, frail fragment of need driven disobey it's not that big a deal. And the risen Christ says, girl, it's a big deal. Sexual morality really matters because it's never just about sex.
Bill Dogterom:It's never just about the tiny little thing. And and remember, again, Thyatira, was was a a a a we don't know a whole lot about it, but the trade unions and the guilds required participation in the emperor cult to do business. So once again, your business license depended on showing up in the regular worship of the Caesar. And eating the feasts on a regular basis that celebrated Caesar. And, it it was like, you know what?
Bill Dogterom:We can worship god on Sunday, but, you know, in order to do business on Monday, you just gotta go along to get along. I just can't make a living without bending the rules a little bit, and I'm sure god is big enough to I I'll I'll say I'm sorry later. And the risen Christ says, this isn't gonna end well for you, because where your heart is, that's where your treasure is. That's where the resource is headed. And so this this participation, even if it's viewed as pragmatic and and permissible, and what makes it all the more challenging is this person who has anointed herself as a prophet, I have a word, Yes.
Bill Dogterom:Yes. It's from the Lord. And in under the guise of prophetic word says the thing you want to do, it's okay. The thing you need to do, you'll be just fine. And because she comes with a prophetic word, because she comes with this title of prophet and because it already plays into what we kinda already wanna do, it lands and drives us off course.
Bill Dogterom:And we lead then into the worship of other gods of participation in these feasts that are are intended to be, kind of chamber of commerce building relationships, becoming these drunken debauched festivals of of of promiscuity and brokenness, and it just the we're circling the drain. And and and John is aware the risen Christ is aware. It's not everybody, not everybody, but enough that if you don't if you don't if you don't if you don't, you gotta tent the house, because the termites are gonna get you. We gotta get rid of this. We gotta get rid of this, because sexual behavior matters and financial integrity matters, and the outcome will not go well for her because Jesus again, this language here in verse 22 and following is real harsh, isn't it?
Bill Dogterom:Almost apocalyptic for good reason. It's this skull and crossbones on the bottle of poison. You want your kids not to go there, not to drink that. The loud warning of avoidance is what he's doing here. Beak and and and please notice, he's not punishing her external external to her behaviors.
Bill Dogterom:He's letting her own behaviors come crashing down on her head. Sin, we're not punished for our sin. We're punished by it. There are consequences to coloring outside the lines of the behaviors that God requires, and he's just saying, I've given her a chance. I've given her a chance to turn around.
Bill Dogterom:She won't do it. So she's gonna end up in the ditch of her own dumb. Don't join her. Get off the bus, don't go, I don't care if she says it in Jesus name. All kinds of people saying dumb stuff in Jesus name.
Bill Dogterom:Don't be buying that, And don't think because it works for you economically that it's a good idea to tell lies. Don't think because it's good for the bottom line that the bottom line is justification enough for compromise. It isn't. It isn't. Don't don't don't be buying Satan's deep dark secrets.
Bill Dogterom:Can you say conspiracy theories? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Bill Dogterom:Don't be don't be misled. The truth is really fairly straightforward and simple, and the one who's victorious, who haven't bought into the new morality based on these deeper spiritual insights, to those he says, hang on, don't quit, don't tap out, don't give up, hang in there. When you do that, when you're victorious, if you hang in there till the end, you get the star of the morning. I know it feels like dark. I know you feel like you're gonna be in the dark forever.
Bill Dogterom:So I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna let you see that hint of the rising sun in the eastern sky as a reminder that I'm with you, you're not alone, and the day is dawning. Don't quit. Hang in there. I think it's worth noticing, if I can just say this very briefly, that this is not about what happens in the world. This is not about what happens in our secular culture.
Bill Dogterom:This is not about what they're teaching in the schools, or what's happening in Hollywood, or what's happening in the, deal making suites of industry. This is about the church. Our hope does not come from getting those systems fixed. Our hope comes from being the people of God here and now and living from the inside out the life of the kingdom. It's the only hope.
Bill Dogterom:And so this is why he's going after this. Don't don't be worried about what they're doing and what hit the top 100 on billboard. Don't don't be worried about that. That's not your business. And when you rant and rave about what they're doing, you invite examination of what y'all are doing.
Bill Dogterom:And candidly, you don't wanna invite that examination because y'all aren't doing all that well. Hookup culture is the same in the church as it is in the secular world. Abortion rate is the same in the church as it is in the secular world. Hello? John says, get your act together, then stay in your lane.
Bill Dogterom:We'll take care of that when redemption comes. In the meantime, can you be people who haven't compromised on holiness so you can actually be helpful in pushing back against the the onslaught of of evil. One more thing, and then I'm done. And everybody said, oh, thank god. I know from my own journey and from talking with some of you and pastoring for 50 years, this is there are a lot of shame around this conversation, whether it's pornography or having slipped up before you became a Christian or having chosen actively to damage and betray a marriage or relationship while you were I get it.
Bill Dogterom:I get it. I get it. I get it. I get it. There's forgiveness in Jesus, and then the courageous walking in the forgiveness that you have received without shame.
Bill Dogterom:Shame is not real. It's anchored to being, and the only way it goes away is to ignore it. This is the difference between conviction, in which the Holy Spirit invites you to repent for hope, and condemnation in which the enemy says you're never gonna be anything better than that. If that's the voice you're hearing, that's not god, that's not what I'm trying to say. Right?
Bill Dogterom:On the other hand, if you're invited to look in the mirror, talk it over with Jesus and find out what he would like you to do, and and and then do that, because he's Lord. It'll it'll turn out much better for you if you do that. And and to to to realize that this is not a one and done decision. This is a long and ongoing process, a long and ongoing process, because it's so deeply rooted in being an identity. So if you have made a determination and have found yourself slipping into the ditch every once in a while and you get back up and keep going, good on you.
Bill Dogterom:That's what repentance looks like. It's not a one and done. I'm good and ready to no. No. It's whenever I fall, I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna keep following.
Bill Dogterom:Right? And and so there's no no shame in in having done that. We bring the community around us to support us in that journey, and then and then we trust that sooner or later, the sun will rise, and the king will come. I'm just gonna invite you, would you bow your heads with me, please, as we pray? Lord, I just know, on the basis just of nothing else of the topic, that we're we're challenged with this.
Bill Dogterom:And so I'm just gonna invite you, brothers and sisters, to come before the lord. Let the holy spirit speak to you what he wishes. Holy spirit, would you please speak to us about the ways that we have have compromised for the sake of financial gain, have have stepped outside the lines of what is an appropriate morality in terms of our sexuality with pornography or whatever else it is, or even in the way in which we have looked at our husbands and wives, to be and do for us what they cannot be or do. And instead of looking to you, we have blamed and shamed them. I pray, oh, Lord, that you would help us as we sit, and just let the gentle weight of the spirit rest in love on our hearts.
Intro/Outro:Thank you so much for listening. For more information, please visit us at garden.church.