Opinion Party | The Marketing Podcast

SUMMARY

Challenging the myth that marketing is "fluffy stuff," Aljan de Boer, Community Director at the Institute for Real Growth (IRG), joins Laura Jones (Global CEO, BAV Group) to reveal how elite CMOs transform human connection into competitive advantage. Drawing from IRG's work with 800+ marketing leaders, Aljan demonstrates how translating societal shifts directly impacts future cash flows—the language CFOs respect. The conversation showcases how marketing leaders who embrace their role as "windows to the world" are uniquely positioned to drive profitable solutions for real human problems, creating value across all stakeholders while delivering measurable business results.

LINKS

TAKEAWAYS
  • Marketers serve as "windows to the world," translating societal shifts into future cash flow opportunities
  • In uncertain times with declining trust in governments, brands have a responsibility to guide consumer behavior
  • Humanized growth creates value across all stakeholders: colleagues, customers, communities, and capital markets
  • Profitable problem-solving is the formula for marketing success in today's complex business environment
  • Deep human connection among leaders drives better business outcomes than focusing on titles and achievements
  • Marketing's value to the C-suite comes from translating social-cultural trends into future business opportunities
  • Purpose-aligned product innovation (like Dole's vegan leather from pineapple waste) creates new revenue streams
  • Most brands (60-70%) are irrelevant to consumers—only those creating meaningful value will survive
  • Leadership retreats that strip away professional identities help executives reconnect with their core purpose
  • Marketing is uniquely positioned to influence sustainable consumer behavior where government action falls short

CHAPTERS

00:11 The Myth: Is Marketing Just "Fluffy Stuff"?

00:55 Aljan's Role: Building Community Among 800+ CMOs

01:47 The Evolving Challenges of Modern Marketing Leadership

03:14 The Personal Toll of Post-COVID Productivity Culture

04:16 Aljan's Ikigai: Connecting Business with Humanity

06:04 "Human-Proofing" the Future: Creating Relevant, Meaningful Value

07:16 Marketers as "Windows to the World" for Organizations

08:06 Translating Societal Understanding into Future Cash Flow

09:32 IRG's Transformative Experiences: Beyond Business Cards

11:00 The Power of Deep Leadership Retreats in Nature

12:05 Building Lasting Community Among Marketing Leaders

14:03 The Transformative "Crossroads" Question

15:30 The "Where Are You From?" Exercise: Connecting to Core Identity

17:01 Brands as Guides in an Uncertain World

18:17 The Shift from Serving to Guiding Consumer Behavior

19:12 Managing Resistance to Deep Personal Work

21:24 The Humanized Growth Champion Program

22:20 Case Study: Dole's Pineapple Waste to Vegan Leather

23:13 Case Study: Intel's Fake News Identifier

24:10 Profitable Problem-Solving Within Capitalism
 

Opinion Party: the marketing podcast

For season two, we asked twelve marketing leaders from a world class set of organizations to join host Laura Jones, Global CEO of BAV Group, to talk marketing myths, trends, data, and opinions. Filmed live on site at the Institute for Real Growth Summit in Cannes, summer 2025. Find us at https://www.theopinionparty.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
 

Season 2 of Opinion Party: the marketing podcast is brought to you by: 

BAV Group, the world’s leading authority on data-driven branding.™️
Our strategic consulting services transform brand growth into brand = growth. Whether you need to analyze, transform, or grow your brand, our team provide solutions based on 30 years of proven methodology and results.
Learn more at https://www.bavgroup.com

Institute for Real Growth
We inspire CMOs to increase their personal, business, and societal impact by driving more Humanized Growth.
Learn more at: https://instituteforrealgrowth.com

CREDITS
Host & Executive Producer: Laura Jones
Executive Producer: Ketzirah Lesser
Production & Still Photography: Bronac McNeill Photography & Film
Co-director, Camera, Sound, Edit: Natalie Barrass
Photos © Bronac McNeil Photography & Film

Creators and Guests

Host
Laura Jones
She's a CEO on a mission to transform data-driven branding one bit at a time. Enthusiastic yogi, girl mom, Girl Scout Leader and change maker.
Guest
Aljan de Boer
Program Director IRG100 CMO Leadership Program & Head of Inspiration TrendsActive &
Producer
Ketzirah Lesser
Exec. Producer, Opinion Party || Executive Director & Chief of Staff | BAV Group

What is Opinion Party | The Marketing Podcast?

The marketing podcast where we interrogate marketing's most deeply held beliefs through data and expert insights.

Brought to you by BAV Group

Find us at https://www.theopinionparty.com

Opinion Party is brought to you by:
BAV Group, the world’s leading authority on data-driven branding. ™️

Our strategic consulting services transform brand growth into brand = growth. Whether you need to analyze, transform, or grow your brand, our team provide solutions based on 30 years of proven methodology and results.

Learn more at https://www.bavgroup.com.

CREDITS: Season II
Hosts: Laura Jones
Executive Producer: Laura Jones & Ketzirah Lesser
Production: Bronac McNeil Photography & Film

Laura Jones: 00:11
Marketing's been accused more than one time of being the fluffy stuff. Do people really need to consume more? With the focus on things like sustainability, fast fashion, what role is marketing actually playing in society? And can marketing does marketing make a difference? Today, we're going to unpack this myth and bust through it through the lens of data and community.

Laura Jones: 00:37
I'm Laura Jones, and this is Opinion Party, the podcast where we explore the most pervasive myths marketing today. And I'm joined today by Aljan de Boer, community director for the IRG, and together, we're going to explore this. Welcome to the party, Aljan.

Aljan de Boer: 00:54
Thank you so much.

Laura Jones: 00:55
This is so great to have you here. You have been running around like crazy, setting up this IRG summit. Let's back up a minute and talk a little bit about what you do in your role as community director for IRG.

Aljan de Boer: 01:09
My role is to inspire and connect the community, which by now is 800 chief marketing officers. And so, we bring content to them, thought leadership that we develop ourselves, and we help them connect around the challenges that they have. So, a lot of these people are really high up the ranks of the marketing world, and some of them honestly get lonely at the top. And what they find in a community is like minded peers who have been there before or are facing the same challenges. And by connecting them together, they can solve for those challenges.

Laura Jones: 01:42
What are some of those challenges that marketers are facing today?

Aljan de Boer: 01:47
Oh, so many. No, I think the marketing job is more tough than ever. We had this headhunter recently, Greg Welch from Spencer Stuart. He's like the top headhunter for CMOs, and he even talks about a profile of the CMO plus. Because you need to do what marketing has always been doing, and now all of a sudden, also get AI sustainability, the geopolitical tension, everything comes into the mix, which makes it quite challenging today to do marketing, just on a business level.

Aljan de Boer: 02:23
Then on a personal level, you know, I don't know about you, but when COVID hit, some people expected us to work a little less because now we have Teams and Zoom, and we can get so many things done in the digital world. But my experience from, yeah, walking around in this community is we only work more. And somehow, yeah, these organizations expect us to be even more productive. So, on a personal level, I think a big challenge is to how do you stay balanced? How do you drive the results for your organization, but also how do you stay true to yourself?

Aljan de Boer: 03:05
How do you connect with yourself? Who are you? You're not your job. That's a big insight that, we explore with these CMOs as well.

Laura Jones: 03:14
Yes. I mean, those are really hard questions for a lot of people to answer, let alone busy executives that are running around. And your insight about COVID is so true. I remember the deep, dark days of COVID where I was literally playing musical desks with myself and my spouse, and we were who's going to put their desk in the bedroom and who's down the basement and moving it. And I remember some nights staying up till two in the morning just because it was almost a way of feeling like we had a little bit of control in the world when things were so out of control.

Laura Jones: 03:45
But it did almost create even more of a productivity culture, especially in The States where I'm from and a lot of companies are based. And you're right, it does take a toll both professionally and personally. And so, the IRG really helps with that. I love the thought of the da Vinci leader, talked about that a little bit last time when we spoke with Mark, and also the Japanese concept of Ikegai.

Laura Jones: 04:13
And I'm just curious what your Ikegai is.

Aljan de Boer: 04:16
It's actually my job. So, it's to inspire and connect people to drive impact, or you could say to drive humanized growth, or you could say to humanize or to human prove the future. And I think that what is happening right now in in today's society is that the role of business is changing. So many of us are as human beings, you and I, as citizens on this beautiful planet, we are experiencing very uncertain times. So, the World Economic Forum or the IMF, they are all tracking uncertainty in the world, and it has never been as much as it is today.

Aljan de Boer: 04:56
And the challenges are too big for governments to solve. So, we need organizations, we need businesses, we need brands to help us because businesses often have to scale, they have the innovativeness, they have the commercial bandwidth to actually make an impact. However, when companies engage in in making impact, a lot of consumers or citizens like us are quite skeptical. Like, is it is it just greenwashing, purpose washing, pinkwashing, whatever you want to call it? And that shows us that there is a disconnect between business and humanity.

Aljan de Boer: 05:33
And my purpose is all around how do we reconnect business with humanity. And the only way to do that is to understand what's going on in society, understand what's going on with human beings, with changing needs, in order to fulfill that new role and, like, get the license to operate from society as a business. So, yeah, that's really my purpose.

Laura Jones: 05:58
You just said a phrase that made my ears light up, human proof the future.

Aljan de Boer: 06:04
Yeah.

Laura Jones: 06:04
What does that mean?

Aljan de Boer: 06:07
Well, basically is don't fuck it up. Don't make bullshit. Create stuff. You know, as marketers, we tend to live in our own world. Right?

Aljan de Boer: 06:18
When you work in an organization, you look through the microscope of your own industry, to your own customer journeys, and you think really that that own touch point in your insurance business is the most important thing in a consumer's life, and it's not. People really don't care. And there is some great research from the World Federation of Advertisers that if you ask consumers about 60 to 70% of brands, you know, if they if they if they get out of our lives, people wouldn't bother. So how do we then human prove that? How do we create things that are relevant to people?

Aljan de Boer: 06:51
How do we create things that are meaningful to people? How do we create things that actually drive the societal impact that is right, that is needed right now. That is to human proof the future or that is to humanize growth.

Laura Jones: 07:03
And I love that as well because when you think about all the new technologies coming in, I mean, not really even new, just kind of becoming mass like AI, etcetera, there's conversation around what is humanity's role in all of that.

Aljan de Boer: 07:16
Yeah.

Laura Jones: 07:16
And a lot of times, sure you well know, businesses talk about future proofing businesses. But I love that IRG is looking out for the people first approach Yeah. And taking from that perspective. And not only is that just because you are showing that marketing can make a difference, but it's also because it's good for business.

Laura Jones: 07:34
Right?

Aljan de Boer: 07:35
Yeah. And it's the marketer's role. So, the people from finance won't tell you what's going on in society. They won't give you that lens on humanity. They won't bring you the insights.

Aljan de Boer: 07:44
Marketers are the window to the world. They are the ones that make sense of what's going on in in society and then turn that understanding into value propositions that actually drive impact. So, it's a great opportunity for marketers right now in this uncertain world. Sounds a bit selfish for marketers to give that perspective to organizations. So, it's not just about yeah.

Aljan de Boer: 08:06
So, it's it is indeed about future proving the business, and it's a great opportunity for marketing. And even from a more commercial perspective, so we talk a lot about, at the IRG, also about how do we. So humanizing growth is about creating value for all stakeholders, colleagues, consumers, communities, but then also for the capital markets. The reason why you need to understand what's going on in society and understand the bigger social cultural trends that are going on is because it allows you to understand your future cash flows. And that is something that the people from finance, the board, the CEO really like to listen to.

Aljan de Boer: 08:47
So, we talk a lot about brand performance and brand building, and we have all our metrics from the clicks and the views and whatever. That's not really the language of the CFO. The CFO wants to know what's my valuation in a couple of years. How do we grow the organization? How do you determine what kind of future cash flow you can generate is by understanding what is going to shift, which new needs will arise, what is the change in human behavior, how are sentiments shifting, and what does that mean for the role that we play as an organization in society.

Aljan de Boer: 09:18
And, yeah, that's really the perspective that marketers can bring.

Laura Jones: 09:22
That is such a great perspective. So, it doesn't sound like an either or. It actually sounds like both and, which is the value that all marketers bring. Right? It's to make that magic.

Laura Jones: 09:32
So, a big component of the IRG program, and I'm sure of your focus as community director, is taking marketers outside of the day to day, really helping them get that fresh perspective. And to do this, you've taken marketers all over the world to the jungles. Can you tell us a little bit about how you craft these experiences that have really become the signature of the IRG?

Aljan de Boer: 09:54
Yeah. It's well, two secrets to share then. There is a one of the founders actually always had the opening speech when we started the program, and we gather up about 50 people. So, we have 100 people in our leadership program. And you can join the kickoff in New York London.

Aljan de Boer: 10:13
So usually, it's a pretty fifty splits. So, we have 50 people standing in a circle. And then Frank used to do the speech, and now I'm honored to give the speech now that Frank is taking time for some other things. One of the things that we do from the start is to say, we don't care about your business card. We don't care about your title, your function.

Aljan de Boer: 10:35
Everyone here plays Champions League, like, Super Bowl in in US language.

Laura Jones: 10:40
Thank you for translating it for the Americans in the audience.

Aljan de Boer: 10:43
Yeah. So, let's, you know, drop our guards. Let's be open and connect on a human-to human-level. So, we're not about we're not interested, not as much yet. We're not so much interested in the awards that you won or whose budget is bigger than someone else.

Aljan de Boer: 11:00
We are more interested in your dreams, your fears, what are you scared about. And we have an exercise to have people talk about that. And then we offer the people in the program a deep dive by going indeed to our leadership retreats. We had one in Panama, deep into the jungle, in the rainforest, to help them connect to nature. We did another one, I think it was about two years ago in Mexico, and we're we are planning one to do again, because it's one of the most impactful things you can experience as a human being.

Aljan de Boer: 11:35
But then when you are there with your IRG friends, and we have a fantastic facilitator, facilitator, and you sit there in the jungle for a couple of days, you can really go deep on you. Not just your business card and your title, but again to who you are as a person. And, yeah, that's always very inspiring.

Laura Jones: 11:54
I've experienced that firsthand, as you know, as part of the original IRG cohort. And at the time, that concept of the residency was just really taking

Aljan de Boer: 12:05
Yeah.

Laura Jones: 12:05
Shape for IRG. Obviously, the founders had done many of these all over the world for many clients. But the fact that we were all not only attending the festival together, but we also were sharing bathrooms. And it's gotten a little bit more posh since then. But in the early days, we were sharing bedrooms.

Laura Jones: 12:26
We were sharing bathrooms. We were sharing moments and experiences. We were coming home late at night and raiding the kitchen. Sorry, Lisette, if you're hearing this. And I to this day, I'm still meeting up with my IRG fellow, cohort.

Laura Jones: 12:42
We've got a WhatsApp. We announce exciting things that are happening in our careers, in our lives. We send pictures of our dogs. And to know that you've now done that for almost or even over 850 people worldwide, the ripple effect of that and the impact, I've been seeing that through these interviews that I've been having and just people are bringing humanity back to business. And when you can actually see someone on the other side of the table, like a CFO or a CEO, it can be really lonely in these positions, and so you really are building this community that, frankly, they can't get anywhere else.

Laura Jones: 13:22
How does that feel?

Aljan de Boer: 13:25
We are very humble about having that role in people's life, but we are also very serious about asking the right questions. And as you were talking, was thinking about one of the questions that we will answer or that we will ask today in the afternoon is one that we also do in retreats is, at what crossroad are you right now? What do you think could happen next? And just that, you know, having people sit together and reflect on, first of all, am I at a crossroad? That's what what's going on.

Aljan de Boer: 14:03
That's what happens. And then people all of a sudden realize, yeah, do I actually want to stay here? So, they come into this identical or identity crisis for a moment. And then to just bounce around some thoughts on, we are really busy. Right?

Aljan de Boer: 14:17
This is really what I want to do. Is, you know, walking the corporate treadmill the only thing that I want to do in life? And if so, how do I do that? That is really the conversations that we like to explore. We have another one that maybe is interesting also for the people that are listening is what we do in those retreats.

Aljan de Boer: 14:36
One of the questions that the facilitator asks in the first, let's say, one hour is sit together with your peers, take ten minutes, ask only one question that is where you from? And then when you get the answer, ask again, but where you from? And the first thing you'll do is when I'm going to do that with you, where are you from?

Laura Jones: 14:55
I am from Nutley, New Jersey.

Aljan de Boer: 14:57
Okay. So where are you from?

Laura Jones: 15:02
I am the granddaughter of It Italian immigrants and I'm from a small town from a few different places. This is all very geographical. I see the first insight here and yes, so I feel a deep connection to my talianity as well as my lineage and my family because that's a really important part of my life.

Aljan de Boer: 15:30
There we go. If I would have asked you three more times, I would go deep into your DNA probably. So, we do that, and then you're already confronted like, oh, so I'm not I'm not just where I'm from geographically.

Aljan de Boer: 15:43
So, I'm going to reflect on my family, but also where I'm at where was I in my career, and how did I end up here. And then the next round, ten minutes, we do where are you now? And then we do another round, ten minutes, where are you going? And then one hour later, you have opened up these CMOs that are into growth decks, and pitches, and award shows, and you know, making their business plans.

Aljan de Boer: 16:09
And it's about them. And that creates magic. Because when you connect, more connected to yourself, yeah, you can also drive more value. And you can also make sure that you bust the myth of we can actually make a difference. If, you know, if and that's what we try to do at the IRG, is to align someone's personal passion and what they're good at, coming back to your ikigai point, and connect that to what does the world need and how can I make money doing so?

Aljan de Boer: 16:42
Because that often finances our ambitions and our purpose.

Laura Jones: 16:45
Wow. The incredible impact that all of these people are now going to have out in the world. What roles can brands play in this very uncertain time to help people really make sense of things?

Aljan de Boer: 17:01
Many roles. Couple of things that I that I would think of right now is, we talked about uncertainty, and, you know, the geopolitical situation. Like, 2024 was a unique year in human history. It was called the election year. 4,000,000,000 people went to vote, 62 democracies.

Aljan de Boer: 17:25
And in all democracies, for the first time in history, every government shifted. Went from the right to the left, left to the right, formed new coalitions. And what it shows us is that there is a lot of social unrest. People don't trust the government. So, who do they trust?

Aljan de Boer: 17:40
That's a really big role for brands to play and make a difference to say, okay, if the government can't solve all these societal challenges, then we can do that. How do you do that? That's where marketing comes in. You need to influence sustainable consumer behavior. Nobody else in the organization is going to do that.

Aljan de Boer: 17:56
So, if you make pizza that are less salty, how do you make sure that people order those, eat those, talk about those to their friends? How do you make sure people are going to drive electric? You talked about fast fashion somewhere in the hallway, I think. Well, I can give you examples of people in our program that have actually done the work. So that is one.

Aljan de Boer: 18:17
And I think that we are moving from a let's sense what's going on in the world and respond to that with serving people with products that are serving their needs. We still need to do that, but I feel that we're pivoting to a new era in which we really need to guide people, almost instruct people on how to live, which most brands and marketers find really scary, because we don't want to tell people what to do in life, everybody wants to should be free to decide whatever. But if we want to solve all these big challenges in today's world, we might sometimes really make this need to make decisions that are tough for us as a business, but also for consumers and say, maybe we should live that way if we want to be around here in the next one hundred or two hundred years.

Laura Jones: 19:12
Having that impact now I have to ask you this question. You don't need to name names, but the work you're doing is very deep work, and the work that you're asking people to do is very deep work. It's self awareness. It's assessment. It's reflection.

Laura Jones: 19:28
Have you ever had a program participant that was a little bit of a tough nut to crack? Has anyone ever come into this program and just said, ugh, this is all woo woo BS, and this is just not my vibe. I need to lead with authority. That's the only way people will listen to me. I need to monger fear because that's the only way that things get done.

Laura Jones: 19:50
Have you ever had that situation? Or if you haven't, how might you help that person see the other side?

Aljan de Boer: 19:58
We have quite a good door policy. So, we have induction calls where we tell this is what we are about. If you think that's too woohoo, then maybe don't sign up. That helps.

Laura Jones: 20:10
Kick them out before they even get here.

Aljan de Boer: 20:11
Exactly. Our bounces are really good. And but sometimes you get people on the program that are less sensitive to these things. And you could say that's because of their own traumas, and they haven't completely opened up to that and seen the light. But some people, they feel really uncomfortable in doing that.

Aljan de Boer: 20:37
And for it's not up to us to change that. It's not up to us to judge those. And what we can then try and do is plant the seed and not tell them tell them what they need to do. Guide them a little bit with the things that we are showing but also show that the other 99 from the 100 are actually benefiting a lot from jumping into that. And that is the contagious, I think, effect.

Aljan de Boer: 21:06
You know, when others are doing it and seeing it and helps them, then they also might want to experience that too.

Laura Jones: 21:13
Good old fashioned peer pressure.

Aljan de Boer: 21:15
Exactly.

Laura Jones: 21:15
Works for adults too.

Aljan de Boer: 21:17
Oh, yeah. Works on many things.

Laura Jones: 21:19
One of the signatures of that is the Humanized Growth Champion

Aljan de Boer: 21:24
Yeah.

Laura Jones: 21:24
Where all of the leaders come up with their own Humanized Growth Plan. Can you tell us a little bit about that program and the awards that you recognize people with?

Aljan de Boer: 21:34
Yeah. Yeah. So, every year, we ask people to write their impact plan, which is about how do we create drive humanized growth, creating value for all stakeholders, colleagues, communities, customers, and then as a result, you also drive value for the capital markets. And if you look at the winners of the last couple of years, one of them will be in your show. So, I won’t spoil that story.

Aljan de Boer: 21:58
He can talk about that. It's amazing. It's he saved lives, literally. Like, I remember seeing his pitch. Well, you should see the pitch.

Aljan de Boer: 22:06
It's like, you you're yeah. You can start crying about that. That's wonderful. But the one that also won was Ruben Desai. He's, I think, top 30 most influential CMOs in the world.

Aljan de Boer: 22:20
He worked at Dole. They make pineapples. And at some point, they figured out that two third of the weight of the pineapple is the leaf that just landed up on landfills. Nobody did anything with it. And they turned that into a vegan leather, selling it to Nike, Hugo Boss, Tommy Hilfiger.

Aljan de Boer: 22:36
So, they opened up a whole it's a fruit company, yeah? And it turned them into a fashion company, selling the real vegan leather. A lot of vegan leather is plastic. This was a natural product. And he as a marketer worked a lot with the people from innovation and actually came up with this.

Aljan de Boer: 22:54
And, yeah, hence, he was one of the humanizing growth champions. There was another one from Intel, George Alexa, who at the time Intel was going through a really rough time. And he started to talk to investors. Like, do you guys rate us so badly? What do you think that we should do?

Aljan de Boer: 23:13
And well, long story short, he at some point came up with a fake news identifier, which in times of misinformation and disinformation is very important to have. So, yeah, he just he again created real products. He did the whole purpose work, so he repositioned the brand. So, on the product level, on the promotional level, he really drove. He actually he actually created a profitable solution for a problem in the world.

Aljan de Boer: 23:47
And that is something that we inspire people to do. Profitable solutions for problems in the world. And there are many problems in the world. And it's up to marketers to find those solutions. And I can keep talking about this for hours.

Aljan de Boer: 24:00
There are so many people that have been in our program that do fantastic things to drive value for all stakeholders.

Laura Jones: 24:08
Profitable problem solving.

Aljan de Boer: 24:10
Yeah.

Laura Jones: 24:11
That is so proof Yeah. And also, that marketing can make a difference.

Aljan de Boer: 24:17
You know, we're not an NGO. We live in a world of capitalism. And as much as we are critical on that system, it is the system. And within the boundaries of that system, we are trying to drive economic value, financial value to invest even more in the more sustainable humanized initiatives.

Laura Jones: 24:38
Well, Aljan, like you said, we could sit here and talk for hours about this, and I'm really excited to keep talking to you. We have to wrap for today. The party's winding down. So, thank you so much for being a guest. Thank you so much for welcoming Opinion Party, the marketing podcast onto the IRG campus, for being part of this family as an alum, but now as a participant and also a partner.

Laura Jones: 25:05
It just means so much to me personally and professionally, and I feel like I'm living proof of the impact of this program. And we're all just so grateful to you and the entire IRG community. So, thank you so much, and now I'm going to cry. Alright. Thank you.

Aljan de Boer: 25:24
Thank you for organizing this, for being part of the community since day one. You were actually part of the invention of the irony. Yes. We even did the research. So, yeah, what a wonderful place to be right here with you.

Aljan de Boer: 25:37
Thank you so much.

Laura Jones: 25:38
Thank you so much for coming to Opinion Party. If you liked anything that you heard today and want to hear more, I mean, what is there not to like? Feel free to check out the notes. We're going to put all sorts of goodies about IRG. We didn't even get to the amazing research that you do, but there's so much amazing research.

Laura Jones: 25:57
And just remember, everyone's invited to opinion party, so like, share, and leave some comments. We'd love to hear what you think. See you next time.