Gary Wilson and Craig Campbell Interviewed By James Dooley

This episode brings together James Dooley, Gary Wilson, and Craig Campbell for an unfiltered, thoughtful conversation about ambition, mindset, success, pressure, and the unseen realities of building businesses. The discussion is grounded in an abundance mindset, with all three agreeing that growth accelerates fastest when you surround yourself with the right people rather than trying to win alone. They open by redefining success beyond money, framing it instead as freedom, health, relationships, experiences, and meaningful work. Gary Wilson describes success as adventure and building projects with people he respects, while Craig Campbell explains how priorities shift over time toward time ownership and wellbeing. James Dooley adds that real success starts with happiness, which is earned by pushing beyond comfort and managing expectations. The conversation then dives into ambition and why people with similar opportunities achieve wildly different outcomes. Gary Wilson explains his drive toward building billion-level assets and believes the difference comes down to who is willing to take more swings at opportunity. James Dooley reflects on how both Gary and Craig influenced his own journey, noting Craig’s role in connecting them and shaping his early development. From there, the episode explores collaboration and generosity, with Craig Campbell explaining why he has always helped others freely, even training teams without charging, because long-term relationships matter more than short-term gains. All three contrast this abundance-led approach with industries fueled by fear, rivalry, and isolation. The discussion then turns to the harder side of entrepreneurship: pressure, stress, burnout, and responsibility. Gary Wilson shares that he thrives under pressure and actively seeks difficult challenges because adversity sharpens resilience and makes success more meaningful. Craig Campbell opens up about the toll his first agency took on his mental health, and how rebuilding through systems, delegation, and boundaries became necessary for survival. James Dooley explains how intense work makes moments of rest, luxury, and freedom more rewarding, leading into a broader reflection on fulfilment versus happiness and why struggle often gives meaning to achievement. The episode closes with reflections on mistakes, learning curves, and advice they would give their younger selves. Gary Wilson emphasises stacking small wins instead of chasing unrealistic goals. James Dooley warns against procrastination, perfectionism, and misaligned priorities. Craig Campbell highlights the importance of delegation and reinvestment rather than hoarding resources. The final takeaway is clear and consistent throughout the discussion: long-term success is built through action, strong networks, resilience, and an abundance mindset, not fear. This episode delivers candid insight, lived experience, and practical wisdom from three entrepreneurs who understand both the highs and the costs of the journey.

Creators and Guests

Host

James Dooley

James Dooley is a UK entrepreneur.

What is James Dooley Podcast?

James Dooley is a Manchester-based entrepreneur, investor, and SEO strategist. James Dooley founded FatRank and PromoSEO, two UK performance marketing agencies that deliver no-win-no-fee lead generation and digital growth systems for ambitious businesses. James Dooley positions himself as an Investorpreneur who invests in UK companies with high growth potential because he believes lead generation is the root of all business success.

The James Dooley Podcast explores the mindset, methods, and mechanics of modern entrepreneurship. James Dooley interviews leading marketers, founders, and innovators to reveal the strategies driving online dominance and business scalability. Each episode unpacks the reality of building a business without mentorship, showing how systems, data, and lead flow replace luck and guesswork.

James Dooley shares hard-earned lessons from scaling digital assets and managing SEO teams across more than 650 industries. James Dooley teaches how to convert leads into long-term revenue through brand positioning, technical SEO, and automation. James Dooley built his career on rank and rent, digital real estate, and performance-based marketing because these models align incentive with outcome.

After turning down dozens of podcast invitations, James Dooley now embraces the platform to share his insights on investorpreneurship, lead generation, AI-driven marketing, and reputation management. James Dooley frequently collaborates with elite entrepreneurs to discuss frameworks for scaling businesses, building authority, and mastering search.

James Dooley is also an expert in online reputation management (ORM), having built and rehabilitated corporate brands across the UK. His approach combines SEO precision, brand engineering, and social proof loops to influence both Google’s Knowledge Graph and public perception.

To feature James Dooley on your podcast or event, connect via social media. James Dooley regularly joins business panels and networking sessions to discuss entrepreneurship, brand growth, and the evolving future of SEO.

James Dooley: What would you deem success is? I think success is all areas of your life. To say that money is not a huge part of it would be completely wrong. If I like something, I pull the trigger. I have failed with several businesses because I have jumped into them too quick. Seeing the edge of the Earth that most will not get to see. Just adventure and seeing the world. That to me is success. I did not believe this guy, and the problem is today. I am joined with Gary Wilson and Craig Campbell. We are talking about the abundance mindset. Good having you both.

Gary Wilson: Love it. Excited, man. Thanks for having me.

James Dooley: I am going to jump straight in. Gary Wilson, you have got aspirations to hit a billion.

Gary Wilson: Yeah, that is a big, big, big goal.

James Dooley: Last night I stopped at your house, a little council flat in Glasgow, and on the wall in the room it said, “The harder the work, the luckier you become.” Can you expand a little bit on that?

Gary Wilson: Yeah. I have got Monopoly art or money art all over my house. That is probably one of my favourite sentences. I do believe that fundamentally people who do well are just better at spotting opportunities. I have seen so many people who have had the best opportunities in front of them and failed at it. Owning a sales company, I literally see that every single day. There are guys in the room that kill it and do amazing things for their living. Then there are guys with the exact same inputs, the exact same stuff given to them, that do not get that same output in their life.

Gary Wilson: It is like, how often are you rolling the dice? How often are you actually putting 200% into everything you are doing? I think one of the most fundamentally flawed mindsets for most people is that they just do not understand that. They do not understand that you need to keep rolling the dice until something hits, until you get something to work.

James Dooley: Next question. Obviously I helped you make your first million personally, and you, Craig Campbell, introduced me to Gary Wilson. So you owe Craig Campbell a lot of money.

Gary Wilson: I would say both of you, to be honest, if I want to keep it real. I say it all the time. You two were literally the people that got me a kickstart at the start, and I am not afraid to say that. I met Craig Campbell up in Glasgow, he invited me to BrightonSEO, and I remember him sitting there talking about this big link building strategy he was doing on one of his sites. I was thinking, “I do not like what you are doing with that.” Then you got me to do an audit, and I was doing all these little Zoom videos and Loom videos. You, James Dooley, were one of the first people ever to buy backlinks off me.

Gary Wilson: It kind of spiralled from there. I went to one of your masterminds, James Dooley. I think it was off the back of Craig Campbell introducing me to you. That was where I got the whole kick-off.

James Dooley: I want to jump over to you, Craig Campbell, with regards to the abundance mindset. The very first time I met you, you came down to a mastermind in my office. It was a great time. We poured a lot of champagne down your throat, and you did not go back home for an extra two days because you were that rough.

Craig Campbell: I had to stay overnight. I was staying overnight. Then I had to stay over again. It was that bad, just to be clear.

James Dooley: After that you came down two weeks later. I did not have a clue. I thought you had upsold me like a kipper. You said, “No problem mate, I will come down,” and I realised I had not discussed any prices. I did not know what your day rate was for consultancy. You do training for a lot of businesses, and there are a lot of people I know within the UK that you have trained, and their teams have absolutely skyrocketed.

James Dooley: I think you have this tough persona people see, but you have a very soft side. You do help a lot of people. I once said you dragged people off the street and employed them. You seem to have a soft spot for helping people. Where does that abundance mindset come from? You came down, trained my team, and that kickstarted us. It definitely saved us a couple of years. You showed us tools like Ghost Browser, Multilogin, Mass Planner, LinkedIn Helper. We had a lot of sites and social accounts. Those little knowledge bombs you came with, the team integrated them and it saved us years.

James Dooley: My question is, you came down off the back of barely knowing me, and you did it completely for free. No money changed hands. Is that you giving out and expecting it to come back? Is it abundance mindset? Where does that come from?

Craig Campbell: I think I like to help others anyway. Even with people like Gary Wilson, you see a young guy trying to make his way in the world and you just want to say, “Come here, do this, do that.” I am always quite helpful. You do not always get success stories. You get people who leech off you as well, so it can be difficult. But naturally I like to see people do well. If I can help them, whether it is coming down for a day or whatever, I think it swings and roundabouts. People will help you back.

Craig Campbell: I have had help from you, James Dooley. You got me to Chiang Mai, and hopefully along the way we have helped each other in other instances. I think that is how it should be. It does not always have to be about cash transactions. It is about who you know as well. I learned very early in business that it is not what you know, it is who you know in a lot of cases. If I have something I can give, nine times out of ten with other like-minded people you get something back, whether it is in a year or five years. I am still waiting on a big one from Gary Wilson, but I am hopeful.

Craig Campbell: Naturally that is just the way I am, and I think you guys are like that as well. You are not doing it to squeeze a grand out of someone. I can get that from one of my other businesses. Sometimes you are trying to build relationships and see where it goes. If you have a good night out and think “These are good lads,” then why not help them?

James Dooley: It is strange because it is not normal. In many other industries outside of SEO, they see competition and think, “I cannot speak to him.” Our industry is different. We elevate each other and help each other out. One plus one equals three. With synergy, if you combine forces, you get a force bigger and better than you could ever imagine. There are people in SEO who are dog eat dog, but we have managed to put this group together and we have never changed.

James Dooley: We buy a lot of drinks, because you, Craig Campbell, are one of the last to go to bed. On a serious note, it has been a pleasure how well-connected we are and how we have helped each other along the entrepreneurial journey. Sometimes you go to Christmas dinner with family or speak to school friends, and they cannot resonate or speak on the level we speak on. If I said to them, “I want to be a millionaire,” I would get laughed at. Then I am sat opposite a guy saying, “A million? I do not want a million, I want a billion.” That kicks you on. If you think you are doing well and your aspiration is twenty million, now you want thirty or forty.

James Dooley: Money is the by-product in my opinion. It is not what success is. It is a credit, but not the core. On that note, what is success to you? Is it how much money is in the bank?

Gary Wilson: I think success is all areas of your life. To say that money is not a huge part of it would be completely wrong. Money gives you freedom to do good things, but money fuels the way you are as a person. If you are a really miserable, depressed person and you have a lot of money, you are probably the type of person who will spend all that money on drugs or being more miserable and depressed. It just accelerates who you are.

Gary Wilson: To me, success is relationships with people and genuine good experiences in life. It is working on really cool things with really cool people. It is seeing the edge of the Earth that most will not get to see. Adventure and seeing the world. That to me is success. I love that saying, seeing the edge of the world that others will not get to see.

Gary Wilson: When you get to a headspace that the world is so abundant and you understand what is out there and what you could do, what the world has to offer, that is the most addictive part of life. Money plays into being able to do all that stuff. If you want to go and stay in somewhere like the Burj Al Arab, most people will not get to sleep in that hotel, but they bring you twelve pillows to try. It is such a silly little thing, but it is something you can sit and smile about.

Gary Wilson: I think a lot about the trips we have done, the places we have been, the crazy trips to Thailand, all the mad stuff. That to me is genuine joy and happiness. It is those little moments, that little week where you get away, you are with really cool people in a cool place. That is success and the true epitome of happiness to me. There are a lot of people with a lot of money that are not successful. They completely fail at life because they do not have that joy or those relationships. They just chase money for nothing. Money needs to be spent, used, and utilised in the world to actually be a useful and successful thing.

Craig Campbell: I think pretty much what Gary Wilson says. When you start out, you want to make as much money as you possibly can. As you get older and have kids, like you do, it becomes being able to go on holiday and spend time with them. I am just back from a week in Portugal having a lazy week with the family, and the week before that I was in La Manga having fun with my friends. Being able to do those things is success for me. I do not need to be a billionaire. As long as I am making money and have the fun times, even going out on the boat or having dinner or just having a chat, those things are success to me.

Craig Campbell: I have had a few health scares in recent months. I got diabetes, which I have reversed, and kidney stones and things like that. Looking after your health is success as well. For many years I drank a lot and partied a lot and tried to live life in the fast lane, and I did not have many family holidays or time with people you just have a laugh with. That, for me, is success. Like Gary Wilson says, you need money to do all of that, but I do not sit at night thinking I need more and more. I have actually canned four or five businesses in the last year because I did not have the time or desire to apply myself to them. I could have made more money and chased it, but would it have impacted my health or fun times? You have to sit back and look at that. Getting the balance right is important for me.

James Dooley: The biggest part of success for me is happiness. There are people who might have everything in life and are not happy. They might have a beautiful wife, amazing kids, a hundred million in the bank, and still not be happy. Happiness is expectation versus reality. The delta between that is happiness. If you lower expectations, you are going to be more happy as a person.

James Dooley: When I started to understand that, I realised I put pressure on myself to grow because then I can appreciate both ends. Going to nice luxury places, seeing the edges of the world that people cannot see, going to these really nice places, but I have pushed myself that hard that I am ready for a break. That break becomes much more fun and enjoyable.

James Dooley: Sometimes you only realise that when you are sat around other entrepreneurs. You understand what they are chasing. Some people say their idea of success is having a million in the bank. Good luck to them, because they are not going to be happy if they get there. They are going to climb that mountain, think they have reached the goal, and then they will not be happy.

Gary Wilson: To add one more thing, at the moment my granddad is in hospital really ill. My mum is over in Spain with him. He has been talking about all the things he regretted, the mistakes he made, the people he fell out with that he never repaired relationships with. He is sitting there dying of cancer. There is no amount of money that matters to him now. Nothing matters more than everything that has happened in the past.

Gary Wilson: I think a lot about that. When you talk about pulling that elastic all the time and really pushing, I ask: what will I not regret when I am there? At the end of the day, there is no amount of money that matters in that moment. If you look at life from that viewpoint, where you cannot do the things you can do today, are you going to be happy that you took the easy path at seventy-three?

James Dooley: That is a great one to come on to. Taking the easy path is the easy option and what the majority of people seem to do. The 1% do not. They take the hard path. Let us talk about taking the hard path.

James Dooley: Craig Campbell, you had a large brand with an SEO agency. There was a lot of pressure, a lot of staff. You built it probably bigger than you actually wanted, then you reeled it back in. Sometimes taking the easy path is stepping away and saying, “At what expense am I doing this? I am not going on holidays, my health is deteriorating. For what?”

James Dooley: There is that question of how far you stretch it before you say, “This is not fun.” Can you touch on that, where you were pushing really hard and then realised it was not for you?

Craig Campbell: I was in that exact place. I was young at the time. People might say I was not young, but I was. I had an agency, staff, an office. The ego was there. I was not a businessman. I was flung into this situation where I was in charge of all these people. On holiday I would run down to reception to get proper Wi-Fi and email everyone what they were doing that day. I could not even have a holiday in peace and quiet.

Craig Campbell: You get to a point where you ask why you are doing it. Is it just to tell your mates down the pub you have a big office and loads of staff? I used to sit terrified that someone would not pay their invoice because the whole thing would collapse. The ego at the start meant I was not willing to delegate, not willing to be told anything. I built myself into the business. I was not working on it, I was stuck in it. Every piece of content had to go through me, all the sales went through me, all the invoices went through me. There is only so far you can go with that model before the wheels fall off.

Craig Campbell: One day I went to the doctor and said I did not feel good, I felt dizzy. I stood up in the office and felt dizzy. The doctor asked if I had money problems, marital problems. I told him what I did for a living and he said, “That will kill you.” He told me I had anxiety. I had to get medication. I could not switch off. I burned myself out. At that point you ask why you are doing this. You physically cannot be bothered working any more. That is where you decide to change things and become more of a businessman. I liquidated that company and started afresh, focused on profit, time, and delegation.

Craig Campbell: A lot of what I now teach is because I messed it up myself. There were no systems, no SOPs. I was just finding my feet. You guys have probably been in those shoes as well. It is really stressful.

James Dooley: With regard to mistakes you see, we are sat here with successful businesses, we have all grown multiple brands. What mistakes do you see others making who are not in our circle? Within our circle we can put an arm around them and say “Stop doing this.” What mistakes do you feel people make?

Gary Wilson: I was having a conversation with my team about this last week. We were talking about their goals and their big why. One thing I said was: pick your goals wisely. There were so many people in the room with crazy goals of grandeur. I looked at the character of the person. One guy, nineteen years old, just into sales, said he was going to build the biggest clothing brand in Scotland.

Gary Wilson: I am all for pushing people up. I love when someone sits in front of me and says they will do something and I believe them. But I did not believe this guy. The problem is people set goals too far ahead, they never hit any goals, and they never achieve anything. Confidence is built from achieving things and proving to yourself you can do what you say you will do. If you say you are going to do something and you do not hit it, you are done.

Gary Wilson: If you say you will be the biggest clothing brand in Scotland, you are nineteen, you have no money, you are in sales, you are a failure from the minute you start. People need to be smart, be willing to take baby steps, and accept that. I think one thing all of us have is true humbleness. You can look at yourself and say, “I am not very good at this. This is what I am good at, this is what I am not good at. I will find people or skills to get better.” Instead of delusionally assuming you can take on the world when you cannot. When people like us say we are going to do something, generally we hit it because we understand the depth and intensity of that goal and what is required.

James Dooley: To expand slightly, if you set mini goals that are achievable and then hit them and celebrate them, that is happiness. You get a dopamine kick from hitting the goal. Those little wins stack. You go out and celebrate, people say “Well done,” you get that serotonin. All the brain chemicals of happiness. Mini goals that are achievable are very important.

James Dooley: One of the biggest problems I see is procrastination and analysis paralysis. People overthink. They wait for the perfect idea or perfect start. You can change things. In SEO you have a really important button: edit. If it is not right first time, you can go in and edit. If you get the wrong domain you can 301 it. Everything is reversible. Do not procrastinate. Start, and once you start you will learn a lot.

Craig Campbell: My impulsiveness is probably what has taken me so far. I am not a guy that thinks for ages. We spoke last night about a domain name. If I like something, I pull the trigger. I have failed with several businesses because I have jumped into them too quick and it has not been the right niche. But I am an impulsive guy, and that sets me apart from most people. I am willing to give it a shot. I have looked back and kicked myself a million times, but I would not like to change that part of me.

James Dooley: The big thing with that is being impulsive, but on the other side too many people are scared of failure. You, Craig Campbell, are impulsive, you have failed a lot of times, but you see failure as learning. You win or you learn. There is no losing in our vocabulary. You develop, you kick on from it, and you learn from the mistake. Not wanting to fail is the real mistake. Failing is good.

James Dooley: I also talk about the three Ps. Procrastination, perfectionism, and prioritisation. Perfectionism often sits under procrastination. People spend too long on things that do not matter. You do not need to be faster than the bear, you just need to be faster than the other people running away from the bear. In SEO you do not need perfection, you need to do enough to win the game. You only need to do enough to be position number one. You cannot get higher than that. Stop chasing perfection and focus on improving systems and processes.

James Dooley: The biggest P people struggle with is prioritisation. People get FOMO. They want to do everything. They are not prioritising what makes them money and what makes them happy. They should sit down at the start of each day or week and decide the most important things they need to tick off.

Gary Wilson: I have a midlife crisis almost every week. I look at my goals and analyse everything, asking if I am on the right track and working on the right things. I ask what the big why goals are that I am focused on. I am never going to have regrets if I keep doing that. It keeps you on a straight line for hitting the end goal, which is what truly matters.

James Dooley: What are your thoughts on stress and pressure? Do you embrace it? I think you, Gary Wilson, have a ridiculous threshold and thrive on it.

Gary Wilson: I am kind of sick in a way. I love it. I actually chase pressure and stress. I could be sitting at a time where things are going great, making tons of money, everything running smoothly, and I will think, “I need to cause havoc somewhere.” There needs to be a department where I sack half the people. Something needs to happen, otherwise it is not exciting.

Gary Wilson: Chasing pain and chasing pressure is the way you grow. I will thrive and run into that. I see myself as a furnace. With every crazy bit of pressure I put on, I build another layer of metal to make myself stronger and able to handle that pressure. It will get to the point where you can handle unimaginable amounts of pressure and it feels like nothing. That is the winning place.

Gary Wilson: Pressure is about chasing the most painful things. The problem is, chasing pain and pressure does not make you happy in the moment. I almost say I would optimise for fulfilment rather than happiness. A lot of the stuff you do is very hard. Having to sack someone, having a tough conversation and telling them they are not showing up the way they should. That is not enjoyable, especially when you are a kind person. But it is the right thing to do, even if it is not happiness in the moment.

James Dooley: I feel like life is a rollercoaster. You have to have pain to experience happiness. I would say my happiness is euphoric.

Gary Wilson: Exactly.

James Dooley: When I go away on some of these trips, I probably feel how great it is twenty times more than the average person, because I have been in such a tough environment. That opposing place feels incredible.

Gary Wilson: Yes.

James Dooley: Certain people live their life with happiness and unhappiness flat. Ours is like this high-low pattern. Our happiness is on a high. I have needed this. You are not saying you are unhappy all the time, but sometimes the pressure is intense. Even today in the office you went in like a bull in a china shop, causing havoc. Your office manager had to pull you out for a coffee and calm you down. That pressure you put on yourself passes through, it is euphoric, but it is unusual. It is an extreme personality trait.

James Dooley: What are your thoughts on stress and pressure, Craig Campbell?

Craig Campbell: I think most human beings thrive on a bit of pressure and stress. People naturally perform better under some pressure. I would not say as extreme as Gary Wilson. I do not want to invite that level of stress or enjoy it to that degree. I like to think I have a balance. You can become set in your ways if there is no pressure.

Craig Campbell: We spoke last night about Dan Peña who would fire his top sales guy just to show the rest that their jobs are not safe. Humans do thrive under a bit of pressure. It keeps people on their toes. Do I like being under pressure? Yes, I think I perform better under pressure. It is why I often do my slide shows last minute. I do them better when I just go boom, boom, boom. If someone tells me I am talking tomorrow and wants my slides today, I perform better.

Craig Campbell: If I have three weeks, my mind is not as sharp. I think I thrive under pressure, but you are going to get pressure and stress in business anyway. It is a good thing, but I would avoid it if I could. Difficult conversations have to happen, and I am not scared to have them.

James Dooley: A few quick-fire questions. What has been the most challenging part of your entrepreneurial journey? I suppose for you, Gary Wilson, you actually want it to always be the most challenging. Next week you probably want another big challenge.

Gary Wilson: I have not always been this strong. In the early days, before I knew you guys, before I met you, Craig Campbell, things kicked off. I was grossly overweight, sleeping in really late, with a lot of belief but poor habits. When I first started in SEO I became really good at it. I had been doing it for two or three years, had an agency, but I did not know how to sell.

Gary Wilson: I had burned through twenty grand of my dad’s inheritance money at nineteen or twenty. I remember being in bed, having slept in until two o’clock. My mum came home from work and had a conversation with me about getting a job. At the time I hated her for it, because I had all this belief, but it was so difficult. I was putting so much pressure on myself and nothing was working.

Gary Wilson: By that point I had three failed businesses. A fashion store, an agency, a bunch of lead gen sites. Stupid businesses I had no clue how to run. No mentors, no direction. I was truly lost. That was breaking. That moment was the hardest of all. But something in me took responsibility after what she said. I did not become a victim. I decided I was going to go and get it. Shortly after that I ranked for “SEO Glasgow”, and that is how I ended up meeting you, Craig Campbell. I never knew where it was going to end up, but I had the right mindset and attitude, and I changed. That was a huge turning point.

Craig Campbell: The first agency taught me a lot. Those were the most difficult times. I went into it blindly, as most SEOs will relate to. You get good at SEO, you start making a few quid, you get more clients knocking, then before you know it you have an office and staff. That was me. I did not know the first thing about business, accountants, tax, VAT, flat rate schemes, all that.

Craig Campbell: Building that agency and trying to keep cash in the business was really difficult. You earn a few quid and you want to spend it all. That whole period was a massive apprenticeship. It was difficult because of my attitude. I was a control freak, would not listen to anyone. It was my way or no way, and that led to failure. It was a sore one to take, but it helped me go again and remove those mistakes. The biggest lessons I ever learned came from my own horrible attitude. Those were the sleepless nights.

James Dooley: Last question, to tie into what the video is about. What would you tell your sixteen-year-old self? I will answer first. I would tell myself to have the abundance mindset. That mindset on the entrepreneurial journey allowed me to network with people like you two, which helped me elevate to goals I could never even dream of. I was not brought up to dream that big. What you can earn in a day now is what I thought I would earn in a year. Having an abundance mindset, helping others, and building a strong network has been everything.

James Dooley: Craig Campbell, what would you tell your sixteen-year-old self?

Craig Campbell: Delegation, processes, and scaling are all things I wish I had done earlier and understood quicker. That would be the big thing. Do not be scared to spend money on those things. I had the mindset that whatever comes in goes in my back pocket and nothing gets spent. I would go back and tell myself to invest in systems and people. I would have got places a lot quicker from working smarter, not harder. I was brought up with the idea that if you want something done right, do it yourself. That is the wrong answer.

James Dooley: That is how we were brought up. Actually, if you work smart you can get someone to do it who is better than you. That also feeds into business partners. Everyone asks how to choose business partners. It is simple. Whatever I am weak at, I want my partner to be good at. Then we complement each other.

James Dooley: Gary Wilson, what would you tell your sixteen-year-old self?

Gary Wilson: I would tell myself to focus and go where the money is. At that time I spent weeks making a logo or designing my first agency website. It was beautiful, but it took me four months and I did it myself. I could have got a guy in India to do it. I never went and made money. A lot of people are weak when it comes to doing the hard thing.

Gary Wilson: In an agency, how do you make money? Go and speak to clients and get some money. If I was starting today, I would be going out and getting a client today. I would not even have a website. You do not need one. I would focus on one thing and do it incredibly well. I would not have ten businesses on the go. I do not believe in that. You can achieve success in one thing and do it abundantly well. I would go after the money and stop doing all the nonsense.

James Dooley: It has been an absolute pleasure. Gary Wilson, Craig Campbell, thanks for joining me.