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In an uncertain world where AI technology is disconnecting us more and more each day, we are dreaming of a world where technology connects us. The premise of this podcast of simple: let's talk to people and imagine the most hopeful and idealistic futures for technologies that connect and do good in the world.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (00:01.536)
We are on the line today with Aishae Denise. How are you doing?
AyseDeniz (00:05.123)
Good, how are you doing?
Dylan Thomas Doyle (00:06.86)
I'm doing good. And let's start, before we dive into things, with something inspirational like we usually do. What's something inspirational going on in your life or in the world right now?
AyseDeniz (00:17.02)
Inspiration in my life is learning something new, which I thought I wasn't really physically capable of because I've never been into sports, but I am swimming. I'm taking like serious swimming classes, like training, which has been really great. It has been a way of balancing my mental and physical energy. And it's really cool to see your own body accomplish certain things.
that you thought you weren't able to. So I think my life has been so much better since I started taking the chance and risk to swim. So that's one thing. In the world, my gosh, crazy world. I guess technology is going somewhere, especially medicine. I'm very excited about all these cool updates and research that's happening. And one of them was on Alzheimer's disease.
And I just, I hope that there is going to be more research that helps people, especially elderly, to stay on this earth with us longer. Yeah.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (01:31.903)
I want to go back to swimming. The Alzheimer's thing I absolutely agree with, but I want to go back to swimming. So I was swimming for exercise a few years ago and then I just stopped. And my life got in the way and I I love swimming. I grew up in the water, grew up in oceans, and I started again. And last week I just like I just went back into the pool and started trying to do my breathing out and all of that and I totally forgot how to do it. Like my arms would go but my breathing wouldn't.
AyseDeniz (01:34.601)
Yeah.
AyseDeniz (01:41.386)
Yeah.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (01:56.035)
And then I got to the other side of the pool and I looked down and it does the huge drop off because it's where everyone dives in and things like that. I just like, shouldn't I remember how to do this? So shouldn't I, how do you feel about swimming as like, as an activity, as spiritual activity and what it tells you about what it means to be human, I guess is the...
AyseDeniz (01:58.474)
Thank
AyseDeniz (02:12.17)
This is vicious.
Yeah, actually, I went to it because I'm, you know, all my friends meditate and I just I hate meditating. I don't know. Sorry. Or anybody listening is a fan of meditation. It's just it makes me stressed. Like it's just like, guess, like I was but I love the breathing part of it. Like, so when whenever there is like breathing sessions, I'm like, wow, that's so fascinating. But how could I do it like in a more active environment? Right. How can I?
Dylan Thomas Doyle (02:23.886)
You
AyseDeniz (02:41.034)
Because I have like pretty low capacity of lungs, like I had asthma as a child and I've never done sports because of piano because I was never really allowed to do sports. And yeah, and I guess like my body really wanted to rejuvenate and I wanted to take more care of it now that, you know, I'm in like in my late 30s and it's important for me to take care and, you know, live a good quality life.
And swimming, you know, I have, I've always swam like a frog. Like, unfortunately, it was very embarrassing, but you know, I knew how to swim, but I had never really taken professional classes before. And I never knew how to do freestyle because I couldn't breathe. I started like, mean, yeah. So I couldn't hold my breath in the water without using my hand to, you know, close my nose and block my nose.
And this is crazy. Like, so all my life I have never been able to like dive without, you know, without doing that or like with a nose plug or something. And I started taking these like, you know, swim classes and it was horrible, really hard when you're trying to do freestyle because other like how, right? Like it's almost impossible. And one day it just happened. I mean, I was like, what? Like.
what I could do that like I could actually be underwater without like blocking my nose with my hand like what like I don't know it was just such a small win but like it was such a big win for me because then it totally like made it possible for me to actually then increase my training you know speed into actually being able to swim and then now I'm like okay yeah I'm okay
Dylan Thomas Doyle (04:31.758)
Well, really, just wanted to talk swimming with you, but it actually is related, hearing you talk about it with, so I met you, I saw you perform slash present at this tech conference, what I'll call a tech conference, the other month. And one of the things that I was talking to someone after your performance, which was beautiful, combining this, and we can talk about it, combining this AI and piano and composition. But what we were talking about was your breath while playing and just how
embodied it was, and we might have talked about this a little bit after your performance too, but the thing that stuck with me while we were having this whole conversation talking about AI was just how forceful your breath was in playing and how that actually brought us into the performance so much more. So can you talk about breath?
AyseDeniz (05:03.122)
Bye.
AyseDeniz (05:11.4)
you
AyseDeniz (05:19.344)
That's so, yeah. The breath. Yeah, I guess, I guess like when I think about my life, the only time I learned how to breathe was when I played the piano. It's so strange, right? Like, but actually, when you are learning how to interpret, especially romantic music, where there are so like such big phrases and we do like call them phrases because they start and end very similar to speech. And there is this kind of like a
You know, we use on, I don't know if you've studied piano before, but like, yeah, so there's like these marks, like a slur, for example. And they they're very, very helpful in terms of like thinking about how you play. But actually, if you breathe at the same time, it really helps to coordinate and synchronize that whole thing. So I remember being in the in college and my friends, we would do like these like
parties, like sight reading parties and like we would hang out and just play piano for each other, super nerdy. It's great. I miss those days. But I remember one of them, one of the other piano students, he was next to me and he was like, he realized like I was stopping to breathe when I played. I was holding my breath and then that was making the music really like flat because of it. I was just like holding the stress in my body.
And then if you do get stressed, then your muscles, especially the hand muscles, gets like stiff. Then that means you can't really like move because if you think about the minimal micro actions you have on the piano, there's so many, there is also like hundreds of notes. In two minutes, there's like 800 notes, for example, in like a normal piece. So that's just a lot. Like sometimes it's like twice as much or maybe four times as much. But so...
you have to be really, really particular with the way you play in these super fast or, or it doesn't matter if it's faster now, but like in this like micro environment. And, and that means your muscles have to be as relaxed as possible so you can control without any, you know, like stress influencing your outcome. And, this is so interesting. I never thought I would talk about this. but yeah, the breathing part really then,
AyseDeniz (07:40.966)
I mean, it was funny because he was making a joke out of it. So he was pretending like I was in like a pregnancy training. He was like, breathe in, breathe out, like breathe in. I just started laughing. it was interesting because like whenever he was doing it, like at the same time with me, it was helping me to synchronize my breath to him, to his breathing. And my music started sounding so good. And I was like, what's happening here?
And I guess like since then I tried to breathe deliberately and based on certain sentences and I know that like phrases in the music and I know that my body relaxes that way and knows it's a safe environment. when you continue then you're expressing.
more, you're able to express more because your body is free physically. So that's it. I guess like it was too like, I guess, yeah, because I had a mic on, it's a speech mic and that probably made it a lot louder than normal.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (08:50.83)
No, it was great in that moment especially because the whole day or at least the session before yours was talking about creativity and AI and how AI was going to bring, you know, this new world of creativity to us, which I have some thoughts on both ends on. But the reason why I wanted to talk to you was to talk more about technology and creativity and what's happening right now, especially in this age of AI from
AyseDeniz (08:55.113)
you
AyseDeniz (09:00.275)
Mm-hmm.
AyseDeniz (09:14.995)
Yeah.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (09:18.944)
a musician's perspective and from a wonderful pianist perspective. And so I was wondering if we could just start at, could you just tell us a little bit more about this AI and piano-y thing that you're doing and then we can work backwards to creativity.
AyseDeniz (09:20.669)
Mm-hmm.
AyseDeniz (09:32.617)
Yeah
Yeah, so my project, at least the first one, because there might be many more, who knows, but the main one is to, and this is like part of my life mission too, is to make classical music accessible, right? And to educate people about why this instrument is so amazing and why are these composers so special and genius in like Mozart, Beethoven, Bach. I guess I grew up in an environment where my friends never really knew these composers.
And they would always ask me to play pop. And I would just be so annoyed because I'd be like, wait a minute, like there is such an amazing art form that you've never even given a chance to. Like immediately their mind would say, like classical music is like sleep music or something. It's like so not even true. And so I would fight against that concept to make this cool again, make piano cool again. And I've
tried it in so many different ways by playing at jazz festivals, rock festivals, incorporating classical and rock and like covers and my own compositions. So many things I've done. I've, yeah. So even if you, if you see there's a YouTube video of me, like I think I was 10. I do like, I play a Mozart concerto and then at the, as the encore, I play like a boogie woogie. And you know, it's just like, it's always like, I think also not taking...
it too seriously because people are so divided in classical music. There is this elite, sophisticated, higher group of people or that's how they conceive themselves or other people conceive them. And then there is the kind of like the public people or like more of the commercial. They love commercial or rock or whatever other genres. But there is a divide between the classical and non-classical for sure. And that is that's not the case 200 years ago at all. So.
AyseDeniz (11:32.051)
Classical music was the pop music of the day, you know, if you think about it. And I wanted to bring that energy back in various ways. And with AI, I actually immediately thought of utilizing the AI tools to bring back dead composers, which at that day, I didn't do this part of it, but normally I fine tune AI agents and I speak with them on stage as well. So I bring back Chopin and I...
ask him, hey, like, can you tell us a day of your life when you were hanging out with Franz Liszt? Or like, you know, or I ask him, like, how was your friendship with Eugene de Lacroix? Tell us about his paintings or something. Or like, how did you compose this piece? And then I play one of his pieces. And I've done that a few times and people kind of freaked out in the beginning just because it was so not usual. So
So basically, I immediately thought, okay, what if I could speak with Chopin, speak with Beethoven, speak with Mozart, and just really have an interactive moment instead of reading from books. Because nobody reads books anymore, right? It's really, really, you would need to be in such a small niche, and that means other people are not gonna have access.
I think access is super important. So that was the initial project. And then I ended up also being super curious about what AI could do in generating music in the style of these composers. So I have generated a Chopin style piece, which AI wrote all of it. And so that and then I was like, wow, that's amazing. So as a classical pianist, a concert pianist,
What we do is we get a piece of music and we interpret it. We play it, perform it our own way. Or the way that the composer wrote us to play. So there's two movements about that too, but I'm more of the personal interpretation world. And I was like, wow, why don't I perform this AI-generated Chopin piece and bring my own interpretation to it?
AyseDeniz (13:50.725)
That can be one of my repertoire, which is super cool. Like I play an AI piece, like, and it's all my work in a way, because as a pianist, that's what we do. Like, you know, other concert pianists also, you know, do that. but other people, like it normally it's with they play other humans music. But also, if you think about how AI is trained, it's also human, too. It's all human, right? Like.
I think a bit more of a collective consciousness in a way, or collective brain. And it's just wiser and it's just like, I mean, it's gonna get wiser for sure. At the time, think, especially for music, it's a little bit limited, but I love that piece. I you've heard it. I think it's pretty magical the way that it was.
bringing back Chopin's compositional elements. And it was a great way for me to, in normal concerts, also to showcase what made Chopin's music so great. then let's play both an authentic one and an AI generated one and then compare them and learn about Chopin. So my main goal is to highlight amazing humans and then...
It's whatever the world is going through that I bring it into my performances. So at this point, it's this AI trend, right? And I'm really taking it to a step above where other people aren't doing this, but I'm really fascinated about challenging AI and seeing what are its capabilities and how can we work together and
and how can humans benefit from AI in a positive way. And obviously there's so many artists against AI, but I look at it more as like a source of information. And then I look at how do I work with that source of information, regardless of all the, you know, I'm obviously I'm aware of all the copyright issues and I think people should be licensed and paid for those for sure. Like, cause it feels like everything else
AyseDeniz (16:01.253)
Yeah, it has to be fair, right? But I don't think we are anyway in a fair musical industry anyways, right? Like it's not because of AI, it's just generally like the payment of like these like streaming platforms. It's ridiculous. Like it's like going to dollar shop and then buying a Tesla car for a dollar and also to buy like an orange. it's how can... It's crazy to me.
Imagine a Beethoven symphony being sold for like 0.0001 cent for a stream, like versus like, I don't know.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (16:35.631)
Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, as someone who's done some of the Spotify things, I got a check for however, like, a thousand listens, and it was like, okay, like, .02 cents, okay, yeah, I guess I can put that away, and maybe in 6,000 years it'll be worth something. I wanted to go back to the dead musicians part of this, and part of this is coming from putting on my researcher cap. I study a lot of end-of-life AI technology. Can we?
AyseDeniz (16:51.641)
Yeah
Dylan Thomas Doyle (17:03.148)
build a reincarnation, should we build a reincarnation of our dead loved ones in order to get closure around grief, things like that. Do you see a difference when you bring quote unquote bring back the dead by playing say an old piece from Chopin that he's left behind and using an AI tool? Both of them are lifting up his work to some degree, but they people at least treat them as as differently. And I was wondering how you think of them differently, the different ways to bring him.
AyseDeniz (17:06.216)
Mm-hmm.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (17:32.931)
to life.
AyseDeniz (17:33.678)
Yeah, it's interesting. think my interest in this topic was way before people were even, I mean, not before, but I just, wasn't a thing that people were building AI agents of dead people in their families that have just, that's weird to me. Like that's a little bit like, but if it's like a historic figure, then why not? Like, because instead of reading his letters and all that, like, why not just have, because it's, you dissociate from that AI.
automatically because it's a historic figure. You don't have emotional ties to it, right? Like you have respect and you have a knowledge of their materials, but you're never going to say, wow, like I have closure because Mozart is bad. You know what I mean? It's just like it's not not tied to you. I think it's weird if you have like someone in your family who just died and then you bring them back trying to heal yourself. guess that's another like that's for therapists to discuss. I have no say in that field.
But I did watch that black episode, black black mirror episode where the boyfriend dies in a car crash and then he comes as like a, you know, a full body and then takes care of the kid and becomes a dad who never dies. It's weird. I don't know.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (18:46.03)
it's it's super weird and that's like the thing that we I mean because it's it's like it's unnerving but I do wonder there's like I get a lot of people come up to me and say like no, it's like impure It's like you're bringing someone back. It's like no, they should be dead, which I totally I totally understand but I am wondering for you're not just talking about Chopin you're talking about his music and creating a new piece of music in his style and I'm wondering if you get folks who are like
AyseDeniz (19:00.775)
Hmm.
AyseDeniz (19:06.959)
Yeah. Right. Right.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (19:11.65)
this isn't like an impurity, like the classical tradition should be the pieces that they left.
AyseDeniz (19:14.008)
Yeah, of course. they do. I mean, honestly, the classical traditionalist, Ewan will say it's impure if you play it slightly different than his intended way. But actually, if you think about historical documents, he actually played his own pieces differently each time. And that's what his students say, too. So there is that. So I think there's always going to be like people who are against change. And then there are those who are.
pro status quo and I think that's okay. Like it creates conversation and it's good to think both ways. I don't think there is like an ethical issue because clearly it's a tribute project. I'm not saying he wrote it or anything, but it's basically a way for me to explore his original works and tell people about him. And so I just use it as like a tool to get information to people in a more...
interesting and fresh way, I think. Because if I just played all his music and then just like there's just I think people like their attentions, they need something that is current happening to be able to like really link to it. Their minds are going to turn off if it's if it's not a specific type of audience. Like if you know what I mean, like if I had went on stage and in that tech conference and just played classical music, there would be like
Like almost like, what's the point, right? Like they it's just not the right environment. But I think with these audiences, too, they're very progressive, they're very open minded. they they I think it makes you think so much more than just the music you you it. And I think your mind extends while thinking about all these other options, too. I don't know if you feel that way, but like.
my mind starts working more and in a more creative way when I'm actively listening and comparing instead of just listening. So if that makes any sense, I like the the feeling of of exploring new ideas in in my mind. I don't know if if I make sense.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (21:23.182)
No, absolutely. that was one of the really cool things about seeing you at a tech conference doing that work and having music played even in the first place was just it was really like, why is this not a part of the conversation? And I had a lot of respect for yourself and the organizers for allowing different ways of thinking about putting content together that we just don't see, or just the different ways of feeling and being embodied, which I think is where I want to go next around
AyseDeniz (21:33.891)
Thank you.
AyseDeniz (21:51.82)
Yeah.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (21:53.197)
this embodiment. So you could, because in person, right, you were, like, I was able to see your fingers on the keys and able to, even when it was a piece, say, created by AI, there was that breath that we talked about, that feeling in the room. And I am wondering, as, say, if you put that Chopin piece that is AI generated out into the world as a recording, do you see that as different compared to the in-person sharing that, you were able to do at this conference?
AyseDeniz (22:00.898)
Thank
AyseDeniz (22:07.474)
Good luck.
AyseDeniz (22:15.371)
Okay.
Yeah, honestly, I haven't done that because of that issue is I get attacked whenever I even mention AI, like on social media. It's crazy. Like I can understand like the the fear from the artists. like, you know, it's like, my gosh, there's so many doomsday people and and they say like, you're doing this and next time AI is going to play better piano, so you're going to be totally eliminated or like it's going to be flat.
faster than you and better than you. I'm like, I have no, honestly, like I might be just like positive, which I'm never, but on this one I am very optimistic. I don't think I'll ever be replaced by AI because like I'm literally doing this like work where it's kind of crazy. Like it's almost like watching sports. Like you wouldn't stop watching sports because you want to watch like a tennis game with two robots.
I think like a human doing something that's extreme on any extreme level, like I think that's fascinating and people are going to watch it. Like they're going to always be interested. And I have no threat in terms of that. I do. Yeah. So I guess technically it would be totally OK if I did publish that piece and because I'm playing it myself. Like there's like no it's not like I've generated and then
putting it online. It's literally me performing it from scratch. totally, totally fine. And also it's not copyrighted. Chopin lived more than 200 years ago. It's fine. So in the ethical realm also, that was something that I cared about. I do not touch commercial music because of the copyright potential issues. Also just for me to be, you know, feel okay.
AyseDeniz (24:15.558)
So regardless, if you were to create some composition and use parts of Chopin, you could totally do it without any issues. yeah, I guess I could do it. If I did want to, I would. I just don't know. I guess I'm not sure about the benefits of it so far. And also it would harm my, I think at this point in...
Dylan Thomas Doyle (24:25.966)
Mm-hmm.
AyseDeniz (24:43.142)
in the history and maybe once people are getting used to it, it might be different. if I released like an AI music album that I play all of it and it's like a tribute, I see it more like research, but people might see like that it's like an endorsement of some use of AI. And I'm not endorsing AI in streaming platforms for sure because...
of all the, you know, the stuff that happened like last week. I don't know if you followed, but there was like a totally fake...
Dylan Thomas Doyle (25:12.782)
Yeah, I was about to bring that up of just this AI generated band that created what, like a million followers or something, a million downloads? What did you make of that?
AyseDeniz (25:17.85)
Yeah.
AyseDeniz (25:21.666)
my gosh, I mean, honestly, they sound pretty good. I'm not gonna lie. I mean, it's pretty good music. I've also generated lots of like, just for my fun, you know, experiments. I've generated some pop songs or rock songs and they sound great. I just wouldn't go ahead and publish them and make money from it because I didn't make them. you know, if I did something where it's like totally generative, I would probably choose like a non-for-profit for musicians too, then.
send all that money to because that would make more sense. But I think like it's interesting because the thing is Spotify and other streaming platforms have already had fake bands. it's not like, you know, the issue is not AI just it's just like highlighting things that are already problems in the industry. Spotify had more than 150 at like 10 years ago, I think they had a scandal like they would create fake
bands, but it was actually humans, they would have like one human would have like 10 different names and then they would, you know, release music in different styles. And then it was basically Spotify endorsing them, I believe. then they would put them on their playlists that have like millions of listeners. And then suddenly they would just earn money. And there's like that's cheating too. You know what I mean? Like you can't just like...
do that. And I don't think anything happened. You can Google it later. But we were so mad. And also, the whole thing about not being able to charge people, at least when iTunes existed properly, let's say, you could choose 0.79 pence or a one pound. I remember in, I think it was like, I was in London at the time. It might have been cents too.
But 79, 99 and 129, think, were three levels of download per stream you could charge people. imagine having like 10 or let's say 15 people purchase your music, you would get 150 bucks. Whereas now you need to get 55,000 streams to get $150. Like insane. Like what? So I think anyway, this whole story about like
AyseDeniz (27:46.052)
you know, people wanting royalties from AI-trained materials, great, like they should get it, but I'm pessimistic about like how much money is that gonna be? Like if it's already so low, it's gonna maybe bring them like a meal or something. Like that's it.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (28:03.486)
I mean, really this conversation, like support artists is I think like the rallying cry coming out of this. But I've been thinking while you've been talking about through my, we're a similar age and I've been thinking about the different ways that music, like fake music has been described over the course of my life. So I go back to boy bands and everyone's saying like the Backstreet Boys, pre-recorded, everyone's lip syncing, this isn't real music. And then I go back to a band like the remix era of like Girl Talk.
AyseDeniz (28:07.495)
Yeah, pretty much. Please do. Yeah. Yeah.
AyseDeniz (28:23.846)
Mm-hmm.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (28:32.472)
where they're bringing together all these different hit songs together, they're touring, they're making money off of it. I still don't know how that worked with copyright, but everyone was like, no, that's, I was in college at the time, we were a big fan of it, right? But then out in the world, people were like, that's not real music, they shouldn't be making money out of it. And now I'm seeing, as you're talking, this new AI generated, is it just the same as some of these previous conversations, or is it something new? And I'm not sure if you have a thought on that.
AyseDeniz (28:43.302)
and we were really good friends.
AyseDeniz (28:51.386)
Yeah.
AyseDeniz (28:59.078)
It's a good question. mean, honestly, I have two sides. One side is like, yeah, none of that is music. It's like, and none of electronic music and none of production music. If you don't play the instrument yourself, that's not real music, I think, or you sing it yourself. That's like my conservative, pure side of classical. Because I've also, I've been frustrated to see the music producers have a little keyboard and then play an entire orchestra with
with like that little MIDI keyboard using samples which are like basically pre-recorded sounds and they've never even touched a violin or how can they write a violin part like if they haven't suffered through like 20 years of like you know six hours a day practice sessions which so I do feel like that to a certain extent I'm like none of the like I feel like a grandma in that way but yeah so there's that because I've you know practiced hours since I was like
five and a half and I remember like just basically my whole life was committed to piano. So and then and with pop music you see like a guy and a guitar like with a guitar and singing like like singing a song with three chords and then he calls like sorry this is how I felt like it's sorry to offend anybody but like if you like I waited until I finished my master's degree to call myself a musician and and
So like compared to that and like a guy with a guitar, three chords, I was like, that's not music. I'm sorry. Like it's just not music. Even if you're singing it yourself, still not music. my benchmark is extremely high. Like music is like if you're able to write like a symphony or something and like like how many people can do that? Yeah. So, so because I was like, you know, playing all this genius music before like composers, like I even was so, so afraid of composing myself. I was so like
I would be in college and I would sneak into practice rooms and then like and write pop songs but in like while hiding and I would never show it to anybody. Like so because I felt so guilty for even attempting to write music when such amazing music already existed that I could never beat. Right. So I think there is this like this big respect that I have for actual like the ones that I'm trying to bring back with AI. Like they're...
AyseDeniz (31:25.909)
Literally geniuses. I don't know if anything exists close to any of what they've risen Maybe like to a certain extent like yeah, like some of the film score Composers like John Williams like if yeah, so there is a handful but like yeah, so my venturing is very high But but with regards to using technology, I think that happens regardless so I had to be okay with these movements and this like
these updates in life and or maybe downgrades, who knows? But it could be. but I guess like, you know, technology will always remain and it'll always get better and better. And there's no way of fighting against it. And so the best way is to actually enter the field and then prove your own talent in it. And so any artist who is saying, they're like, we're protesting against AI and we're never going to use it.
Okay, yeah, but maybe if you think you're so talented, why don't you do something better than all the other people are doing with AI and then prove it to the world that you can do it. So that's my opinion. I'm like, okay, well, let's do it, AI. Let's come here. I will work with you and see what we can create together. And let's see if the outcome is going to be better than the combination of
humans and like, like better than single AI or single human, but like what if we combine the two? So I'm proud. Yeah.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (32:59.686)
That's something that I love that you mentioned briefly at the beginning of this interview, which was about testing AI and testing the limits of this newish technology. Could you say more about that?
AyseDeniz (33:12.741)
Yeah, I think, you know, I've heard a lot of talks about treating AI as a kid, and I think it's like a baby right now. And the baby is growing in like these like, reminds me of the baby in Twilight. It's like, you know, I don't know if you're, I watched them, I'm sorry, I watched them. But the baby grows so fast, the vampire human hybrid. like,
she almost breaks the bones of the mom. So it feels like that. Like, it's like this baby is growing so fast. And like, I think part of my involvement was to learn about it more. So like how, like, and I do have doomsday scenarios in my mind too. I'm like, what if in the future, like, it does take over? like, I need to know how it works. Like, I need to learn about, like,
the models and I need to learn about the potential threats and the potential advantages. So it was more of me wanting to get into tech that way. And I guess like my in was I know so much about classical music. It's such a like it to an extreme level of knowledge of domain knowledge that I can actually like I can hear.
the differences or the commonalities or like the compositional elements in the generative outputs. So it's helping me understand how AI works much easier. It's just much faster than if I were like trying to learn code. It would just take me so long to understand like, my gosh, like the details of all the, know. So I guess like for me, I love intelligence. Like I love data and I love...
learning more about life and myself and my brain. And I think this whole journey has been also a big question of like, what does it mean to be human? what does it mean to, like, are our social values, are they in line? Like, are they good social values? Is work everything? Is it like, or like, what are identities? and actually like my...
AyseDeniz (35:26.199)
My upcoming project is a lot about identity formation and like what do we link our identities to? Is it like a specific country? Is it a specific work style? Is it your job? it your family or being, you know? It's really interesting, I think. Like that has also been changed and it's a trend. I know that like back in the day, Twitter accounts of people would say...
before the title. So first of all, it would say their title. And then the time came where they would say, I'm a dad and a proud husband, blah, blah, blah. And then, I don't know, an engineer at Google or something. Like, it's just like, it's funny to me that people wanted to speak about those as if it's like, you know, it's like interesting. It's their title. So that's how they identify. And that's how people, like how they want other people to perceive them.
And then now we came to a point where is it a he or a she or they or them? then there's this gender identity that came into place. And then I think the next step might be actually like, who knows, like with AI and all these different characters. Again, it just makes me think of like another Black Mirror episode of like two gamers and they become different characters. then even like everything then changes.
It also reminds me of the movie Fifth Element too, because then, you know, it's like there's so many alien characters and identities and I'm like, wow, like such a weird thing I've never thought. I think it's interesting to see how humans interact with the world. And yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, for me, like I don't like I think it's the Western culture that constantly wants you to prove your identity to someone.
Like I've never, I'm Turkish, like I never grew up in an environment where work was such a big part of people's identities. You know, sure, having money from work was very important. Like that was a common thing. Like what's real, what's a real job and what's not a real job. So like music wasn't necessarily a real job and like in that culture and then it's like, if you're a doctor, it's a real job. So it's like, like, so there was that more of that, like, are you, you know, get a real job versus not.
AyseDeniz (37:45.827)
but it wasn't like your identity was formed by what you're doing. So I think that's a very Western culture that I'm recognizing and observing. Yeah. So it's interesting. So with AI, who knows? What are your thoughts about this?
Dylan Thomas Doyle (38:05.334)
Well, I, yeah, I, I have lots of thoughts right now about jobs versus art and things like that, but I am, I'm, currently going to throw it back to you if that's all right around this. I, as an artist myself, I am wondering a lot about do I need to mark when I publish something or put something on sub stack or whatever as a little asterisk like
AyseDeniz (38:12.826)
Yeah.
AyseDeniz (38:18.212)
You
Dylan Thomas Doyle (38:32.362)
I did not use AI in this, or I did use AI in this, like the disclosure part of that. And I think right now it is important to name when we're using these tools. Say, like I write an academic paper, right? Like it's important to name how I did that. Did I use it to completely make up my data? Well, I probably shouldn't be doing that, right? Like, and I should be able to name what areas of the paper I used AI in. Well, I was curious as you were talking of like where our Twitter bios are, like I could imagine a Twitter bio saying,
AyseDeniz (38:43.662)
Yeah.
AyseDeniz (38:50.98)
Mm-hmm.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (39:00.526)
I am an artist that does not use AI and it's part of their brand. Or the reverse of like, I use AI and it's part of their brand. What do you think about disclosure?
AyseDeniz (39:02.933)
Right.
AyseDeniz (39:07.798)
Absolutely. Yeah, it should be disclosed for sure. I still don't trust sources. If I'm doing something like a research that's legit, like if I'm, for example, even like fine tuning composers, I went through so much work, honestly. Like I read like so many books. I mean, I had already read them, but like to fine tune, so like you get the data and filter the data and put it into like an AI and an LLM and
And I guess like for me, the process was still very old school. Like I had to go to JSTOR, download all the like, buy the articles or the or the papers, academic papers, and then really like read through them, turn them into Word documents and then like filter the parts that were relevant. So it was really like, I'm very, very much like nerdy in that regard. So I don't think I would trust, I would trust AI, like AI by other humans because it did.
it hallucinates and it gives you wrong information. My first question was to chat GPTs about, when I was experimenting without training it, I said, okay, act like Chopin and tell me what was played in your funeral. And he gave me wrong answers. It was like, because it's from this data junk of open source data and people can just write stuff and like...
things that aren't correct and then it might think it's true. So I think really the research has to be even more clear at this time. And yeah, it's good to have that as part of your brand for sure. But then also, yeah, I wish more people cared about it. Like, that's the thing is like, think like AI is highlighting these gaps and holes in the society that exists and...
Yeah, like, I guess that should have been the way anyways, but it should.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (41:04.512)
Well, I'm looking at like TikToks that are entirely AI based and I've been thinking about outcome versus the process when creating art. And if the outcome is to, in our capitalist society, to get as many people to listen to our art as possible, then it makes sense for me who is not classically trained to use a classically trained piano sample or violin sample because it will make what I'm doing sound better and therefore get more views. But
AyseDeniz (41:13.133)
in it.
AyseDeniz (41:26.37)
Anyway.
AyseDeniz (41:30.094)
Right.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (41:32.012)
Like the entire process of having the level of expertise and the level of time commitment that you've put into the art that you're doing, it does feel like a short circuit or just like, what are we doing? Like what's the point of creating art without creating the art with our fingers and with our hands?
AyseDeniz (41:42.2)
Yeah.
AyseDeniz (41:46.308)
For sure. I guess like, you know, YouTube just like last week published something that they're gonna not be able to monetize AI content, which is great. I like that. That's how it should be. Because I've seen such junk. Like I saw one, like just with, you know, just I'll just say it. Like basically there was one totally fake and it had like 700,000 views of this video of like Elon Musk's son, like four year old son. Come on.
At least don't do that, right? And then he's holding a cross and then reading the Bible or something. And then it says, look at how Elon Musk's Christian son is talking or something like that. And then people are watching and it's clickbait. And whoever did that video is earning money off of a four-year-old. It should not be legal, I don't think. And there's gonna be so much more. I've read in the news of a school where
a few of the students where their photos were edited in a porn site. I think it's one of their classmates did that. So that's gonna happen a lot. And so these scams and fake accounts and with speech, they're gonna be able to ask for money pretending like it's you to your parents, for example. Things like that will happen. So people have to be really, really cautious now.
they should not believe anything they see or hear. so unless we like if we do have those labels, like maybe even like a verification of some sort, I think that's going to be the only way forward to believe anything. And I actually was going to ask you about the WorldCoin thing, because I actually I was kind of against that idea, but then I totally did it. I scanned my retina and I got verified as a human and I like it.
I the concept of it and the premise of a universal basic income too, that's incorporated to it. obviously, I don't know, you thought about it?
Dylan Thomas Doyle (43:55.583)
I have avoided as much as I can trying to. So the thing is, the more that I study this as someone in the academic space, the more I deleted social media and the more I tried to get my data out of the system because I was like, well, this is pretty fucked up. I don't really want myself in this surveillance state. But the question of deepfakes that you're raising is really interesting, even just like facial deepfakes or Elon Musk's baby, which obviously crosses so many moral lines. Do you see this music thing as like music deepfakes?
AyseDeniz (44:01.902)
Yeah.
AyseDeniz (44:05.943)
Okay.
Yeah.
AyseDeniz (44:16.887)
Yeah.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (44:25.154)
Like, or even the Chopin work that you do, have you ever thought about it in terms of that language of like a musical deepfake of someone?
AyseDeniz (44:31.976)
No, that's interesting. Musical deepfake. That's cool. I like that. It's like so art is, Yeah. You should. You should. That would be good. I think I love how arts and artists can take a story and and use it in such different creative ways. So I think that could be a really interesting concept of like.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (44:38.284)
As I was thinking that, was like, I gotta copyright that, that's an interesting idea. Like, I gotta write a paper about that.
AyseDeniz (44:57.013)
of comparing actual and non-actual data and what it means. So I like that word. And yeah, it could be. Maybe that's a better way of portraying it because then if I said that's a deep fake of Chopin, then people would already know that that's a deep fake and not try to attack me for it. Because that's whole point of it. You know what I mean? It's not like I'm not saying to anybody this is like...
Chauvin reincarnated. It's like that's a tribute project. And people are always like, I think just humans are complicated. as much as I want to put my work in public, it's just so hard for me to like, feel safe because of other humans. And that's the thing. It's like, it's not because of AI. I'm literally just like doing these tribute projects. then, yeah. So it's complicated for me. I think humans, yeah.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (45:52.079)
Well, so on that, we have a lot of younger content creators that listen to the show. For folks who are maybe taking middle school piano, high school piano right now, who are probably not going to get to the professional level of music that you've been able to achieve, but are like, this is their passion, and they want to bring AI into their practice, either of learning piano or performance. What advice would you have for them or what thoughts do you have about limitations?
AyseDeniz (46:03.416)
Yeah.
AyseDeniz (46:13.377)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
AyseDeniz (46:18.915)
Yeah, I think like the ones who learning piano should absolutely learn it and really like think about the benefits and the amazing thing that the human body can do. I think that's like one lesson I learned is like, wow, I was able to do this and I'm not AI. it's like it's something that makes you respect yourself like a lot. It just like the physicality of the motor skills and everything. So I think like they should really take
piano so seriously and passionately. With regards to using it, I think there are some tools that are not now coming up. there was one that just came out by Google's Magenta. It's like a VSD. So if they're doing production composing, they can utilize that and to jam live over like an AI drummer, or just like they can create beats and things like that. So I think that's cool.
If it helps them to make their art better, I think why not use it? But I wouldn't encourage them to use samples. But this is something that's interesting. I do want to mention something. And I have this alarm clock that is bird sounds. I don't know if you hear it, but I'm going to turn it off. yeah. Suddenly the fake bird started chirping. Yeah.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (47:35.854)
That's the ambiance, that's the AI ambiance of the bird sounds.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (47:42.189)
You
AyseDeniz (47:44.483)
So like I went to a show the other day and basically like it was supposed to be like, okay, I'm not gonna give names, but it was a show where the performer was playing over actual tracks of music. imagine like, imagine, you know, and there's so many of these people on social media where you're like, and it's a trendy thing, right? So if you hear a Britney Spears song, let's say, and then you're,
playing on top of that actual song. It's not a cover. It's literally like you're jamming over another track. like how, is that fake music? I think that's more fake, to be honest. Like I think that's more fake than like actually playing an entire piece of music that is like generated by AI. like, cause you're.
playing the entire thing. I don't know. It's just like you're not creating anything new other than just like following along something that already has been produced and so I think there's so many ways also like how about Melodyne like using like a vocal adjuster to correct your not non-perfect singing. Like that's more fake I think. Like there's so many, there's so much fake in the world.
So with regards to how ethical each one is, we could rate them for fun. But that would be it. I wouldn't want to do that in public, but maybe sometime else. But like...
Dylan Thomas Doyle (49:06.606)
Yeah, that's the follow-up of just ranking the top hundred AI products for how fake they make everything. I know that we are almost out of time, and so I do want to throw you the last question, which is if you had a piece of music, for example, or maybe a book, movie, piece of media that you would recommend to listeners, what would it be?
AyseDeniz (49:17.663)
Yeah.
AyseDeniz (49:29.739)
Yeah, my favorite movie is the red violin. Have you seen it, by the way? It happens, right? Yeah.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (49:36.576)
I know, I saw the preview at some point, like the little trailer on YouTube because it was recommended to me though, so that's a sign.
AyseDeniz (49:44.483)
Cool, yeah, it was like, I think it's not a new movie. It's like maybe 10 years ago or something, but it's still one of my favorites because it actually talks about everything we talked about. Well, the history, the craftsmanship into making a violin out of scratch and then also like how it travels through hand in hand, the transformation of like the music that is played on it and also like comes into like an action movie where it's like stolen. So it's like really cool. And the soundtrack is Corigliano.
performed by Joshua Bouth. So it's like just like top people and I think people will enjoy it. Somehow it hasn't, it's not in like not common when I I recommend it to people. So I do like, you know, picking that out from my favorites because I would I would think that your listeners also haven't seen it. So it's cool. Yeah.
Dylan Thomas Doyle (50:37.224)
Yeah, no, it's it's I it is now on my list as well. This is why I love this question is because I get to go back and be like, this is the thing that I should prioritize. Thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate the conversation.
AyseDeniz (50:41.387)
Hahaha.
AyseDeniz (50:48.151)
Thank you for having me. It was great.