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Stacey Flaster and Dori Goldman are two ladies obsessed with cults and true crime. Join them as they take us into the depths of some of the most notorious cults, crimes, and killers that the world has ever known. They consume content and ask deep dark questions that only a certified expert can answer... enter Dr. John Mayer. Dr. John is an internationally known Forensic Psychologist and expert on violent behavior and crime prevention, with 35 years of experience consulting to law enforcement and testifying in hundreds of court cases as an expert witness. He is the "Real Deal" and will help Stacey and Dori get to the bottom of of their curious criminal minds.
00:00:03:06 - 00:00:07:17
Speaker 1
A podcast about cults, crimes and killers.
00:00:12:16 - 00:00:24:06
Stacey
Well, Doctor John Mayer Netflix is finally giving Ed Gane the star treatment with his own episodes on the series monster the Ed Gein story.
00:00:24:08 - 00:00:32:13
Dr. John
Well, they're a little late to the party. We've done two episodes on Eddie and had experts on plaid Candy to talk about them.
00:00:32:13 - 00:00:36:02
Stacey
Yeah, those were some of our first episodes. Two of our best.
00:00:36:04 - 00:00:38:07
Dr. John
They're all our best.
00:00:38:07 - 00:00:49:16
Dr. John
It is important to note that the Netflix series is fictional portrayal of events in the. In our series, we stick to the realities and the deeper explanations of why, when, how.
00:00:50:06 - 00:01:02:13
Stacey
Yeah, between the psychology, the local legends, and the way his story basically rewired pop culture. He's sort of the grandfather of American horror. So today we're giving you a mash up of some of our favorite clips from past episodes
00:01:02:18 - 00:01:15:00
Stacey
with firsthand accounts from people close to the story, a little horror movie history from a returning guest, the expert Adam Rogoff, and of course, Doctor John Mayer doing what he does best.
00:01:15:04 - 00:01:18:05
Stacey
Crawling inside the mind of a monster.
00:01:18:07 - 00:01:21:12
Dr. John
You make it sound like I enjoy that.
00:01:21:14 - 00:01:23:17
Stacey
You kind of do.
00:01:23:19 - 00:01:37:15
Dr. John
Okay, fair. But seriously, stick around until the end, because we've got our resident slasher film expert, Adam, joining us to get his take on the Netflix monster, The Ed Gein story.
00:01:37:17 - 00:01:42:20
Stacey
You don't want to miss it. All right, let's get into it. This is our Ed Gein mash up episode.
00:01:43:19 - 00:01:53:14
Speaker 1
Outside my window. It's only raining.
00:01:53:16 - 00:02:01:04
Speaker 1
When the wind blows in. I feel pain.
00:02:01:06 - 00:02:06:07
Unknown
And I don't need no doctors.
00:02:06:09 - 00:02:26:24
Speaker 1
Maybe I'm not sick. My body's been lined up. I've broken up cells in every.
00:02:30:11 - 00:02:34:11
Speaker 1
May.
00:02:34:11 - 00:03:11:01
Dori
Stacey, I knew nothing about this man. Like, oh, I really, I, I, I hear of, I watch so much stuff as you know, I knew literally the name did not come across to me until Ryan Murphy announced that he was doing another monsters series starring that Charlie Hunan. And that is how I'm like, oh, can we do an episode on Ed Gein?
00:03:11:01 - 00:03:12:24
Dori
I know nothing about this man.
00:03:12:23 - 00:03:31:13
Stacey
and I should also mention that this, we watched a documentary called Ed Gein, which was produced and directed by my very own brother Alex and his business partner Adam. They put it together, produced it, and it's really wonderful. It's about 45 minutes and it's got some interviews and it's really cool.
00:03:31:13 - 00:03:33:14
Stacey
And that's what we used as our source material.
00:03:35:19 - 00:03:48:22
Speaker 2
There's something about game that appeals to the morbid curiosity within all of us. It's so macabre, so bizarre, so deviant that we can't look away.
00:03:50:08 - 00:03:52:19
Stacey
So Ed Gein, so,
00:03:52:19 - 00:04:05:14
Stacey
psychotic that he inspired Norman Bates from psycho, and inspired a Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Texas chainsaw murderer. Yes, sir.
00:04:05:14 - 00:04:08:09
Dori
Murder massacre, murder, murder massacre.
00:04:08:11 - 00:04:18:23
Stacey
And, he inspired, silence of the lambs, the Buffalo Bill character, who made, you know, objects out of human human skin, etc..
00:04:20:22 - 00:04:38:15
Speaker 2
There was a what the police called a mammary vest, the upper torso of a woman that queen had taken from the body and preserved and attached straps to. And then there were leggings that had been made from the skin of a woman's legs.
00:04:38:17 - 00:04:50:06
Speaker 3
And at times her. It was reported that he was sometimes walk around with this memory vest that he had managed to make from female anatomy, and he would attach it to his body.
00:04:50:06 - 00:05:02:00
Speaker 2
And apparently also sometimes take one of the, female genitals that he had removed from a corpse and stick those on himself as well, and pretend to be a woman.
00:05:04:05 - 00:05:08:22
Stacey/Dori
We have the creator, director, producer. And
00:05:08:21 - 00:05:12:09
Stacey/Dori
My brother Alex. Master
00:05:12:09 - 00:05:15:14
Stacey/Dori
on today to answer questions about Ed Gein.
00:05:15:14 - 00:05:28:01
Stacey/Dori
He's an expert, and we have the famous author Adam Rakoff, who wrote horror books. He wrote a horror book based on Ed Gein. Am I correct about that, Adam? Based on the person again.
00:05:28:01 - 00:05:37:06
Adam
But I wrote a book about slasher movies and a lot of these great slasher movies. They take a lot from both the Ed Gein case and the Ed Gein legend.
00:05:37:18 - 00:05:38:12
Stacey/Dori
Yeah. So.
00:05:38:12 - 00:05:44:13
Stacey/Dori
he can answer our questions about how Ed Gein got into the pop culture, as all these different characters
00:05:44:20 - 00:05:50:10
Stacey/Dori
is Ed Gein is are things based on again because he he was early, early on in the 50s?
00:05:50:15 - 00:05:59:06
Stacey/Dori
Or is it because that case was so unbelievable? People say it's so unbelievably awful for me. I know it's awful. Don't get me wrong, Gacy,
00:05:59:05 - 00:06:05:19
Stacey/Dori
Dahmer and, Ted Bundy to me are scarier. And explain why either of you
00:06:05:18 - 00:06:19:01
Adam
Gene was really the first. I mean, you have to remember when this case broke, in 57, we were a decade removed from World War two. So we knew about the horrors of war, the horrors of the Holocaust. But that was those were foreign horrors.
00:06:19:01 - 00:06:41:08
Adam
They weren't on our shores. They were over in Europe where terrible things happen. And also people were aware during this time that, you know, the big cities were dangerous places. Terrible things happened in the cities, of course, but Keene really sort of just blew open the door that there are monsters living in middle America and middle America, literally and figuratively.
00:06:41:08 - 00:06:59:16
Adam
I mean, Wisconsin is smack dab in the middle of the country, and that little town encapsulates, hundreds of thousands of other little towns everywhere. And I think people realized or maybe not realized, but thought and had the fear. If it could happen here in Plainfield, it could happen anywhere.
00:06:59:18 - 00:07:00:22
Dr. John
Yeah, I want to I want to,
00:07:00:22 - 00:07:21:15
Dr. John
piggyback on on that, because it's like the phenomenon of the The Exorcist, the movie The Exorcist, when that came out, you have to look at some of these horrific events in the context of the social milieu. At the time, there was nothing like The Exorcist when it came out.
00:07:21:15 - 00:07:40:02
Dr. John
Now, I, I've asked a couple of my young nephews, they said, you know, we will have a discussion. What's the scariest movie ever? And I'll go, it was The Exorcist. Well, I was a little kid when The Exorcist came out, and it would frighten me to the core, especially being a Catholic kid, with the church and the devil and all that stuff.
00:07:40:04 - 00:08:05:09
Dr. John
And you hit it on the head with, with again at the at the time when this broke, media was just, you know, becoming, you know, more widespread. We could hear about these things. You wouldn't in the, in the early 50s, 40s, you wouldn't necessarily hear about something in Wisconsin until you read it in, your local physical newspaper.
00:08:05:09 - 00:08:15:16
Dr. John
Two weeks later. But this broke. There was TV cameras all around. So, it's a phenomena that Adam hit right on the head, which was that. It was. It broke,
00:08:15:16 - 00:08:18:19
Dr. John
iron curtain of, this kind of horror.
00:08:18:19 - 00:08:20:21
Stacey/Dori
Alex. Yeah.
00:08:20:20 - 00:08:33:01
Stacey/Dori
first of all, I want to hear a little bit about your experience working on the show, working on the Ed Gein case. If you met any, did you meet anybody who knew Ed? I believe you did. But did you meet, like, the people in the town?
00:08:33:01 - 00:08:37:05
Stacey/Dori
Like, how were you in court? Like, did you go to the town? Tell us about that experience.
00:08:37:07 - 00:08:39:10
Alex
Absolutely. Yeah. It was,
00:08:39:09 - 00:08:53:06
Alex
I was working at a company in Chicago, and I was, assigned the project. There was an episode of the A&E series biography. Was initially, they wanted me to do a show on John Gotti. The, you know, Teflon Don, but that fell apart.
00:08:53:06 - 00:09:21:12
Alex
I don't remember why. And then they gave me the the at game case. I didn't know who that was. I had no idea. So I looked it up and, you know, I found it fascinating. And the thing I found most fascinating about the game case wasn't really the crime. It was the, the legend, the, you know, the how he had just been, all these characters from these movies, that I had seen growing up, were, were based on him.
00:09:21:12 - 00:09:40:15
Alex
The three that we talk about in the show are psycho, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and Silence of the lambs. So I did my job, which is, you know, trying to find people out there that were involved in the case. And I produced this in early 2000, in the cases in 57. So I was certainly fortunate that there were still people that were alive.
00:09:40:17 - 00:10:13:04
Alex
And that was, I think, the thing that really sort of blew my mind. And what makes it such a special project, which is this guy is an inmate, is in many ways, and we talk about it in the show is is he there's like the myth of him. He's like the boogeyman in many ways. And to be able to meet people that actually spoke to the boogeyman that had him in his house, that worked with them, that had lunch with them, that some in the streets and interacted with him was just such a fascinating, and, rewarding experience.
00:10:13:04 - 00:10:31:19
Alex
The case took place in Plainfield, Wisconsin. I live in, I was living in Chicago at the time, so it's just a quick drive, across the border. So yeah, I was in Plainfield. I was there several times to small, tiny town. You wouldn't think anything of it. It is like a million tiny little towns in Wisconsin, barely a main street, barely anything really.
00:10:31:21 - 00:10:51:08
Alex
And, Yeah, it was it was a terrific experience. And, you know, like I said, it was these it was this pop culture connection. I think that really drew me into the game story. I mean, I, like my, my, my partner and good friend Adam. I, I don't like horror movies. I've seen a lot of them.
00:10:51:08 - 00:11:09:18
Alex
I it was growing up, you know, it was kind of a rite of passage, to have to watch all these fucking movies, like, you know, Nightmare on Elm Street and and, you know, Halloween and all these movies. I didn't particularly enjoy it, but I knew I had to watch them, because otherwise, you know, you're. I was, this was the 80s.
00:11:09:20 - 00:11:33:08
Alex
But The Texas Chainsaw Massacre in particular, obviously, it's a horrifying movie. And it's scary and it's well done and it's great and all the stuff. But there was one aspect of the movie that made it that just left an imprint on me, and that just scared the hell out of me. Unlike other horror movies. Adam, you commented it on in the show.
00:11:33:10 - 00:11:45:04
Alex
I think do you remember what it is? What is it about Texas Chainsaw Massacre that creep me out? That a certain fact that, you know, in the beginning of the film that creeped me out more than any other horror movie, what do you think it was?
00:11:45:04 - 00:11:51:08
Adam
I'm going to assume it's the, it's the title card that says it's a church. Based on a true story.
00:11:51:10 - 00:12:04:12
Alex
Exactly. Yeah. And that is the you know, when you see that and you're like, Holy shit, Leatherface walking around the giant chainsaw, how the hell is this story based on a true story? And then you start doing research
00:12:04:12 - 00:12:31:19
Alex
and there's psycho and there's Buffalo Bill. I mean, these are some, you know, some profound characters in the history of cinema, that, you know, I've left an imprint on and so many people's minds, and it's all attached to this, all linked back to this one little unassuming five foot six, you know, little man living in Plainfield, Wisconsin, nowhere, Wisconsin in 1957.
00:12:31:21 - 00:12:41:05
Alex
How the hell is that possible? And just being able to unpack that and talk to people that actually knew him and interacted with them, and especially those journalists, two that came to the town and,
00:12:41:05 - 00:12:45:10
Alex
it was an amazing, experience professionally and personally.
00:12:45:10 - 00:12:50:21
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:12:50:21 - 00:13:13:08
Dori
I'm gonna say something very controversial. Okay. These photos that they showed in the documentary of of Ed Kane, I thought he was kind of a looker. I'm not going to lie. I was like, this guy's cute. Kind of cute. Not I would not swipe left. I would swipe right.
00:13:13:19 - 00:13:22:20
Stacey
What about this, Ed game that they're doing in that series? He's too good looking. Like the guy's hot again. Charlie. What's up? What's up with that? I'm sorry. I didn't mean to.
00:13:22:24 - 00:13:29:04
Dr. John
I will say Doris did say Ed Gein was cute. Which kind of, you know, startled. Yeah. What is cute, kid?
00:13:29:04 - 00:13:34:02
Dori
He wasn't hot. He wasn't hot. But the. And not as the killer
00:13:34:02 - 00:13:40:14
Dori
But back in the day, they showed one photo over and over and over. Right? And I'm like.
00:13:40:16 - 00:13:43:20
Dr. John
You know what? Being able, being.
00:13:43:20 - 00:13:45:02
Stacey
A bull, being able.
00:13:45:02 - 00:13:49:23
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:13:49:23 - 00:14:07:16
Alex
Gein's murders. And there were only two, you know, three if you include the brother. But that's still unclear. So, I mean, in the world of serial killers, it technically isn't even a serial killer. But, you know, his his were impulsive. He saw something in these.
00:14:07:16 - 00:14:21:21
Alex
In these women that were, You know, Adam and I were talking about this the other day, in terms of why he killed these women. Mary Hogan, who was the the bar owner, and then Bernice Ward. And who was the hardware store owner?
00:14:21:21 - 00:14:28:17
Alex
I think she saw them as the sort of antithesis of his mother, the type of person his mother preached against.
00:14:28:19 - 00:14:47:21
Alex
Mary Hogan was, you know, she swore she drank. She was boorish. All those things that her mother would say about, you know, about women. And then Bernice Worden was a self-possessed business owner. That also is not something that his mother would, you know, would, take pride in. So I think those were factors, not the other factor.
00:14:47:20 - 00:14:52:19
Alex
In, in picking these victims, I think might have been more practical.
00:14:52:20 - 00:15:06:19
Alex
You know, we know what he did with the bodies. These were large women. I don't know if you seen silence of the lambs. You kind of know where I'm going with this. So there might. That might have been a factor, too. But in terms of the murder, they were very impulsive, Mary Hogan.
00:15:06:19 - 00:15:18:18
Alex
I mean, there was blood on the floor. He shot her on site. There wasn't a process behind it. There wasn't this whole he wasn't trying to torture her. He was trying to. And John, I mean,
00:15:18:17 - 00:15:34:06
Alex
his crimes have always sort of made sense to me in a really weird way, in that if you take a guy who, had, you know, whether he's schizophrenic, I mean, clearly he was mentally ill, who had this mother who was the quintessential,
00:15:34:06 - 00:15:38:13
Alex
religious, you know, preaching, you know, psychologically damaging.
00:15:38:13 - 00:15:59:10
Alex
Mother think I think, you know, for the movie Carey or something like that, you know, I mean, I'll sort of traces back to Adkins mom. You took it in 1957. You taken in this farmhouse in the middle of nowhere, Wisconsin. And then she dies, and he's just left alone, and he's looking for a way to reconnect with his mother and in his own twisted, weird, fucked up way.
00:15:59:10 - 00:16:16:20
Alex
Quite frankly, this is how he does it, you know, it's horrifying. But he, you know, makes these suits and wears the skin and, you know, and the body parts and the, you know, and I just always, it always sort of made sense to me. If you take all of these factors, you know,
00:16:16:19 - 00:16:24:01
Alex
middle of nowhere, his severely mentally ill, crazy ass mother, she dies, left alone to his own devices.
00:16:24:03 - 00:16:42:19
Alex
And he this he's missing this connection. You know, Norman Bates kept his mom up in the attic. What does that game do? How does Ed Gein reconnect? And that was. That was that was how he he chose to do it. It's crazy. It's fucked up. It's disgusting. And it spawned a gazillion different movies. But but it always sort of.
00:16:42:22 - 00:16:50:18
Alex
You know, just a twisted, bizarre, weird way. And I'm not sure what that says about me. It always sort of made sense to me. Again. What what he did,
00:16:50:18 - 00:16:52:11
Alex
I don't know, John. Am I crazy?
00:16:52:13 - 00:17:03:20
Dr. John
You. What you're describing, Alex, is, what we call a minefield, a linear analysis. You know, that? You know, a plus B equals C, you know, with with this
00:17:03:20 - 00:17:05:06
Alex
The pretty fucked up. See though.
00:17:05:09 - 00:17:06:12
Dr. John
Oh, yeah. Yeah,
00:17:06:13 - 00:17:11:13
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:17:11:13 - 00:17:21:17
Dori
what about the fact that he wore that, female skin suit and paraded around?
00:17:21:17 - 00:17:45:19
Dori
Is there do you think, doctor, is there any possibility that he was past trans, transgender, a cross-dresser? Is there any thinking of that correlation? Is it just like, why would he wear it? Like, did he want to be his mother? Did he want to be a woman? What do you think about that?
00:17:45:21 - 00:18:12:18
Dr. John
I think your last statement is where I would go with it again. We wouldn't. I wouldn't be able to diagnose whether he was transgender or gay, etc., without, you know, talking to him and and digging a little deeper. But I will say to me, for Ed, again, we go back to that primitiveness and that almost undeveloped person, that kind of experimentation is I'm going to shock you guys.
00:18:12:18 - 00:18:36:01
Dr. John
Is not that uncommon with kids, is they, explore sexuality. There's a lot of very macho, male, heterosexual men walking around this world that when they were eight, nine, ten years old, they they tried on mommy's dress and and maybe have masturbated, you know. Yeah.
00:18:36:03 - 00:18:38:09
Dori
But this is an older man.
00:18:38:11 - 00:18:40:17
Dr. John
But with the undeveloped ness of him.
00:18:40:17 - 00:18:46:00
Dori
But the young bright. Because he was. You're saying he's childlike even as he he he looks.
00:18:46:02 - 00:18:49:02
Dr. John
At a developmental period that was just stopped.
00:18:49:04 - 00:19:01:04
Stacey
And it's it's so interesting that you say that because one of my questions which you're answering was, did his mother stunt his growth by infantilizing him, like making him making him so, just. Baby.
00:19:01:04 - 00:19:07:17
Dr. John
Yes. She might have seen she couldn't do that with Henry for whatever reason. And so that's her little boy, you know, that's her little child.
00:19:07:17 - 00:19:10:00
Stacey
And project. Her little project.
00:19:10:02 - 00:19:10:15
Dr. John
Yeah. Which I.
00:19:10:15 - 00:19:11:13
Stacey
Wouldn't.
00:19:11:15 - 00:19:19:06
Dr. John
To see, you know, even at his age, you know, had a spoonful of, oatmeal and open your mouth. There comes the plane, you know, and the train, you
00:19:19:05 - 00:19:29:10
Dori
he did do well in the institution, and it was because the thinking is he had routine.
00:19:29:10 - 00:19:50:09
Dori
and I don't know if that what your thoughts are on that, that he went in for, I don't know, the first in 11 years. Then he went to trial and they said, bring him back to the institution and lived out his life until he passed away from cancer. But, what do you think about that?
00:19:50:09 - 00:20:05:19
Dori
Like because the mother obviously gave him that routine, right? Like that was I mean, and then she died and then, like you said, like he was like a free for all, like, okay, now I can just go in.
00:20:05:21 - 00:20:08:12
Stacey
You know, no structure, no structure.
00:20:08:12 - 00:20:22:11
Dori
Like. But was it an evil intent or was it just a, like, I can do whatever I want. And then he goes back into the institution where he has that right, and then he's, you know, quote unquote, okay.
00:20:22:13 - 00:20:31:05
Dr. John
Remind me to talk about evil because you guys brought that up right before, I guess. Right. I'm here. I want to talk, but let me address the first part of your question.
00:20:31:05 - 00:20:57:12
Dr. John
His mother gave him the rules of life per her purview. Right. Women. Right? Yeah. You know, the Bible is truth, and, you know, kind of. Well, this what? Whatever. So he's controlled. He's controlled in prison. And that's what we. If I can wax philosophical here about the whole field of mental health for a second, and also gives the audience some of my, my prejudices.
00:20:57:14 - 00:21:23:20
Dr. John
You know, that's a problem with how we treat these severely mentally ill people in the age of, therapist. Well, you know, if that's something you like to do. Well, then I guess it's okay. As long as you're not hurting someone. When I treat people in therapy, there are rules. There are things we know in the science of this field that you got to go.
00:21:23:22 - 00:21:32:04
Dr. John
No, you don't do that. Sorry. This is not appropriate. So you see rules and and Stacey said the
00:21:32:05 - 00:21:35:03
Dr. John
the right word which is structure.
00:21:35:05 - 00:21:35:21
Stacey
Right.
00:21:35:23 - 00:22:01:18
Dr. John
It's very important for a severely mentally ill person to have structure. And that's why he held it together. When mom was living. If she had ever found out he was digging up graves and, you know, taking nipples and vaginas and things like that, she would have probably went ape on him. And, you know, whatever. But she again, as I said before, she dies and boom.
00:22:01:21 - 00:22:03:16
Dr. John
Katie, the door.
00:22:04:05 - 00:22:21:12
Stacey
I mean, you know, this whole thing about the woman, the Oedipal come complex. What what happened to the mother? I mean, think about that. What what is the psychology behind fanaticism for her? And this is a bigger topic, but just a brief briefly and again, we've got.
00:22:21:15 - 00:22:50:01
Dr. John
To make an only guess. And the the key is always the key with the woman like that is what happened in this marriage. You know, the guy was an alcoholic. Again, let's just extrapolate. I'll just based on cases that I've worked on the guy was alcoholic, maybe physically abusive, and, controlling and cutting her down. So the only refuge that she had was the Bible, you know, and following the Lord.
00:22:50:01 - 00:23:22:13
Dr. John
That. And now she did have the the ball, shall we say. There's a clinical term to leave him in and get away, you know, from him, with the kids, which would be, wow, there's some there's some health there. But I got a feeling that that marriage was the key to, you know, just breaking this woman. And yet this kind of world, this kind of society, they she might have married this guy when she was, you know, 17, 18, something like that, and just dominated by this.
00:23:22:13 - 00:23:30:07
Dr. John
And from a primitive background. And this is what you do, you follow the man, you know, because the man is, you know, King.
00:23:30:09 - 00:23:31:03
Stacey
Right.
00:23:31:02 - 00:23:36:01
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:23:36:01 - 00:23:44:13
Stacey
Don't forget to stay tuned to the end of this episode for Adam Rock take on the Netflix series monster, the Ed Gein story.
00:23:50:06 - 00:23:52:19
Stacey/Dori
had another question for Adam.
00:23:52:19 - 00:23:54:04
Adam
I'm. I'm just.
00:23:54:06 - 00:24:11:03
Stacey/Dori
I'm curious. What do you think about, like, there are obviously these real stories that, you know, like, Stacy and I are so fascinated about. And then the movies that are done on these stories,
00:24:11:03 - 00:24:11:22
Stacey/Dori
What
00:24:11:22 - 00:24:23:01
Stacey/Dori
your feeling about turning these, like, true crime stories into movies? How,
00:24:23:05 - 00:24:38:00
Stacey/Dori
much do you think that movies need to stay to the story line? Do you like, do you think movies are better about these disgusting crimes than the actual documentaries that go about them? Talk a little bit about that.
00:24:38:00 - 00:24:39:03
Stacey/Dori
For us.
00:24:39:05 - 00:24:44:20
Adam
It depends completely on the specific movie and the specific work of art.
00:24:44:20 - 00:25:05:02
Adam
One of the things about Queen that is so interesting is as awful as his crimes were, if you look at the movies, at least the big ones that were made right after, or because we were talking about it before, let's just say Texas Chainsaw and let's say sound of the lambs. The filmmakers made a conscious choice, obviously not to not to stay too close to the story.
00:25:05:04 - 00:25:16:11
Adam
And the reason I think for that is because it was more horrific and more interesting, to make the carriers more in the classic mold of serial killers, who actually went out and stalked their
00:25:16:11 - 00:25:30:08
Adam
prey and killed them. I mean, there's no doubt when you look at both, Leatherface and Texas Chainsaw Buffalo Bill and Silence the Lambs that these guys are far, far scarier than, old Ed Gein was sitting in his shack in Plainfield.
00:25:30:08 - 00:25:41:05
Alex
my personal opinion is nine times out of ten, I think. I mean, regardless of how true the movie stays to the actual story, most of the time a documentary is more horrifying.
00:25:41:05 - 00:25:47:01
Alex
the one movie that jumps out at me that I mean, it's also kind of even loosely based, but I think it's fascinating.
00:25:47:01 - 00:26:09:15
Alex
You know, Adam is a fan as well. You reference that the other day, at least the second one, Henry Portrait of a Serial Killer. That's a phenomenal movie. And I think it was based on Henry Lee Lucas, so. And it wasn't, you know, and it's not really. And I don't even know the Lucas case well enough. I mean, there's a lot of sort of kind of like in, I think, Lucas there's a lot of sort of question of, did he kill as many people as he claims kind of thing, but the movie is amazing.
00:26:09:15 - 00:26:13:19
Alex
I mean, it's horrifying. And it really gets into the psychosis of of the person
00:26:13:19 - 00:26:19:02
Alex
Know, but for the most part, I think a documentary is more horrifying,
00:26:19:01 - 00:26:36:12
Dr. John
is. Yeah, it goes back to that, this this really happened. This is reality rather than we know. That's one of the reasons. That's one of the ways in which people cope with horror movies, especially gruesome horror movies. You can distance yourself from it because you know, this, this is not going to happen.
00:26:36:12 - 00:26:54:00
Dr. John
It's it's Hollywood. They made it up. You know, it's exaggerated. So it's not real. But when you have a documentary like you made Alex master, you know, it it really brings us to wow, this is reality. And these people lived with it,
00:26:54:01 - 00:26:59:11
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:26:59:11 - 00:27:16:20
Stacey
on our second episode of pod Candy. We have the horror expert Adam Rogoff, author of the book on horror films titled The Horror of It All. Adam has graciously agreed to come on pod candy again to talk to us about his thoughts on the Netflix series.
00:27:16:22 - 00:27:24:17
Dr. John
I'm excited. Adam is great and I learned a lot from his book and also his last appearance on our show.
00:27:24:17 - 00:27:27:00
Stacey
Adam, welcome.
00:27:29:18 - 00:27:33:19
Speaker 1
May.
00:27:33:19 - 00:27:41:01
Dr. John
Adam, I am so anxious to hear what you think of, this series. And again.
00:27:41:03 - 00:28:05:09
Adam Rockoff
Well, in keeping with, with the subject matter and keeping with, the subject of slashing, I think you could have lopped off 2 to 3 episodes of the whole series. Specifically the last. The last two. Maybe even the last three. But there's so much to unpack here because, I mean, it is an eight episode series, and some episodes were even over an hour.
00:28:05:11 - 00:28:27:21
Adam Rockoff
I guess we can start by saying it is by far, by far the most comprehensive look at Gein that we've ever seen in cinema. Just by nature of it being, a series instead of a one off doc or a movie. And I guess there's two main things we really have to look at and discuss and analyze.
00:28:28:02 - 00:28:51:14
Adam Rockoff
And they are, you know, are we going to look at this? You know, are we going to talk about this as a Hollywood product? Who were which we're all watching for entertainment and enjoyment and maybe a little bit of education. Or on the other side, are we looking at this as a faithful representation? About who? Jean.
00:28:51:16 - 00:29:15:10
Adam Rockoff
The person really was. I mean, those are two distinct, different things. If we're looking at it, you know, just as a piece of entertainment, and just there's still a lot to unpack there. I would say the big thing that we want to think about is maybe the main creative choice, that the showrunner or director, our producer or whomever really, you know, got their hands dirty with this.
00:29:15:12 - 00:29:39:11
Adam Rockoff
The main choice that they made, and that was cross-cutting or interspersing the Jean story with different stories throughout history about how Gene has impacted the world and the culture we live in. And I think some of those little, vignettes worked well. I love the Alfred Hitchcock one about when he's trying to get when he's, meeting with the writer Robert Buckeridge.
00:29:39:11 - 00:29:42:13
Adam Rockoff
Psycho. Trying to get that project off the ground.
00:29:44:13 - 00:29:47:03
Speaker 1
Dane was schizophrenic. Was
00:29:47:03 - 00:29:47:17
Speaker 1
he not?
00:29:47:19 - 00:29:56:01
Speaker 3
Yes. They are often triggered in early adulthood. And for Eddie, it really seemed like the trigger was these photographs of Nazi atrocities.
00:29:56:03 - 00:29:59:21
Speaker 1
And had he not seen them.
00:29:59:23 - 00:30:02:03
Speaker 3
Might have stayed a small town. Simpleton.
00:30:02:05 - 00:30:06:23
Speaker 1
Such is the power of the photographed image.
00:30:07:00 - 00:30:14:14
Speaker 3
That's right. You cannot hide from what a photograph shows you. You cannot pretend a photograph is anything other than what it is. A photograph is truth.
00:30:14:15 - 00:30:15:06
Speaker 1
That's right.
00:30:15:07 - 00:30:40:00
Speaker 3
And, Eddie, when he saw what the Nazis did, he couldn't wrap his head around it. He was completely stunned. But I really think that the horror of it never registered. What Eddie saw in those photos was the truth. And the truth is, here's just another thing that people did. Like riding a bike or drawing a picture. And so Eddie wanted to do it too.
00:30:40:02 - 00:30:46:15
Speaker 3
Some sort of morbid fascination. And we really couldn't understand what was wrong about it.
00:30:46:16 - 00:30:50:00
Speaker 2
About digging up dead bodies. Jimmy.
00:30:50:02 - 00:30:54:13
Speaker 3
Well, among other things.
00:30:55:05 - 00:31:08:12
Speaker 2
You'll have to excuse me, Mr. Del Psycho is a fantastic book, and I congratulate you on its success. But, Alfred, no one's going to want to watch this film. You'll have to excuse me before I say something I regret.
00:31:08:12 - 00:31:21:08
Speaker 1
She's right. Of course. This is not cinema that anyone will recognize. It is entirely new. But she's dead wrong to say people won't want to watch it. Our
00:31:21:08 - 00:31:43:20
Speaker 1
audience lives in a world in which God has been banished. They live in daily fear of nuclear annihilation. They have stared quaking, minds numb at the sheer magnitude of the evil that was the Nazi holocaust seen for the first time in history.
00:31:43:23 - 00:31:52:22
Speaker 1
What human beings are capable of when the moral compass is of lost.
00:31:54:04 - 00:32:07:17
Adam Rockoff
I also love to see, just because I'm a horror movie buff. The back story about Toby Hooper and how he came up with the idea for The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and we even got a little surreal when he starts, chainsaw ING people in the middle of the Montgomery Ward department store.
00:32:07:17 - 00:32:27:24
Adam Rockoff
I mean that by all accounts, really happened. Not not the change changing in the store didn't happen. But he. But Toby had those fantasies. And that's how, the genesis of Texas Chainsaw Massacre came about. Other ones that I thought, and this might just be a personal, thing, didn't work so well. I didn't like the whole turn Tony Perkins thing.
00:32:28:01 - 00:32:35:07
Adam Rockoff
Him struggling with his sexuality. I know you can draw parallel to again and how he struggled, but I just didn't think that was that compelling.
00:32:40:06 - 00:32:48:04
Speaker 1
I know I shouldn't be, but I am.
00:32:48:06 - 00:33:14:20
Speaker 1
The problem nice is when we fornicate. Yes, when we fornicate. Afterwards, I become ill. Every time.
00:33:14:22 - 00:33:30:00
Speaker 2
You said the act of sodomy fell monstrous. And are you a monster?
00:33:30:02 - 00:33:35:00
Speaker 1
No, no.
00:33:35:02 - 00:33:49:06
Speaker 2
No. I have to consider these episodes a warning. The. You're the star of an Alfred Hitchcock picture. This is the opportunity of a lifetime, is it not?
00:33:49:08 - 00:33:52:09
Speaker 1
Yes.
00:33:52:11 - 00:34:01:19
Speaker 2
The sodomy threatens this. So the sodomy has to stop.
00:34:01:19 - 00:34:15:15
Adam Rockoff
I really didn't like the ending. Where you see Gein, being called on by all these profilers to help, catch other serial killers. That could. Because one, because that didn't happen.
00:34:15:17 - 00:34:16:20
Adam Rockoff
In the real world.
00:34:16:20 - 00:34:21:06
Dr. John
couldn't agree more with, everything you're saying. I just want to interrupt.
00:34:21:08 - 00:34:21:17
Adam Rockoff
Please.
00:34:21:19 - 00:34:59:23
Dr. John
They. Yeah, I agree, I loved the because it's fictional, you know, and I think that's the lens we got to look at it on. I love the backstories with the other movies, but I didn't like this. This whole thing with the Nazi, the the bitch in Buchenwald. And I thought that was filler. Which, by the way, brings me to one of my pet peeves about series lately, and I think you will agree based on your opening, Adam, is that, you know, it just seems like they get contracted to, produce eight episodes and so they have to fill in, you know, wood material.
00:34:59:23 - 00:35:35:01
Dr. John
And I think that is where the series suffers is that it seems like they're filling in material. I also real quick and I'll get back to you, I agree, I thought the last episode was, needless, and kind of silly, but an important point from my professional point of view. The other thing I kind of objected to, and I'd like to hear your comments on, they portrayed Eddie at the end when he's in the mental hospital like he was reformed, or he he was a gentle soul who just was, you know, innocuous.
00:35:35:01 - 00:35:49:18
Dr. John
And everybody liked him. And in my experience with dealing with these serial killers, it just doesn't go away in their mind. You know what? This just doesn't happen. Like what we saw in the series. But back to you.
00:35:49:20 - 00:36:08:13
Adam Rockoff
I would concur with everything you said, especially the last part. I mean, they really take they they take pains to humanize him, which is fine, because that's what makes good television or good movies. But you know, Keaton was not a hero. He was not a hero, but he was not even an anti-hero. He was not by any stretch of the imagination.
00:36:08:17 - 00:36:29:24
Adam Rockoff
He was, cold blooded killer. Now, if we want to discuss how much of that is, I don't know, let's just say, the evil of humanity and how much of it was, you know, a chemical imbalance or a medical condition. That's fine. But that's not what they were doing at the end. They they really made it seem like he was, this, for lack of,
00:36:30:01 - 00:36:36:23
Adam Rockoff
I'm not gonna use another creative word. He was a hero, and he wasn't. He was this, he was a cold blooded, murderer.
00:36:36:23 - 00:36:42:02
Dr. John
and a very disturbed man that just doesn't go away with a pill that.
00:36:42:04 - 00:37:05:21
Adam Rockoff
Actually, that's that's what I was going to say. Doctor John, when we were talking before about when I thought it was ridiculous how he consulted with, spec and all these other, murderers, I believe. And I could be wrong, but I remember reading once that he was contacted early in his incarceration. And the profile, it might have even been Douglas John Douglas, the great profiler.
00:37:05:23 - 00:37:35:24
Adam Rockoff
Just realized almost immediately that anything they were going to get out of Gene was just, you know, nonsense. Because he was, you know, to use, a little bit of a insensitive and non-medical term, you know, crazy. He was just say there's nothing he could bring to the table that would potentially help them. So he wasn't this sort of, Hannibal Lecter ish character spouting, you know, incisive, you know, commentary and helping them solve the cases.
00:37:35:24 - 00:37:38:20
Adam Rockoff
He was anything but. It was a waste of their time.
00:37:38:22 - 00:38:02:11
Dr. John
Yeah, yeah. Again, I, I also know a little bit of that back story just from professional circles and, and there's not even any, really evidence that he helped in any cases. That again, was portrayed in the series. So, so getting back to your first couple comments, I think we have to look at this series in the lens, with the lens of it's fictional, you know, it's a fictional portrayal.
00:38:02:11 - 00:38:12:21
Dr. John
I think there was some, aspects of it that were great pieces of information for the general public. But most of all, it's a fictional portrayal of of what happened.
00:38:12:23 - 00:38:37:20
Adam Rockoff
I mean, the perfect example of that is, you know, I'm saying that, well, we're not you don't see me. I'm smirking a little bit, but if I was Berniece Warden's family, I mean, I literally would sue Netflix for this, because the truth is, and I don't dislike that part of the film, but the truth is, they portray Bernice Warden as sort of this, you know, upper middle aged, you know, sexy seductress who seduced Jean.
00:38:37:23 - 00:38:59:03
Adam Rockoff
And none of that ever happened. I mean, they knew each other because they lived in the same town, but there's no evidence that they had, you know, any relationship. And if you go online and I've done that, I'm smiling. I'm laughing because it's so ridiculous. She is this old, sort of just generic looking woman. And then you watch this Netflix series and Jean has her bent over the chair.
00:38:59:05 - 00:39:00:23
Adam Rockoff
And they're having this passionate sex.
00:39:00:23 - 00:39:25:13
Stacey
Well, you know that. That's what's so ridiculous. Is that his mother? You know, I know that it's true that his mother was extremely religious and evangelical and and to the point where she would, you know, tell him women are demons and they're bad and they're evil. His mother wasn't attractive. And I think the women that he, you know, that he dug up or killed probably had a little more of that look to them.
00:39:25:13 - 00:39:44:10
Stacey
And it's sensationalized that so much to seem like he's looking for some hot piece of ass because he didn't. He also seemed in the I watched a couple episodes of the show. I have not watched the whole thing like Doctor John Mayer, but when I watched it, I was disappointed because I was like, this doesn't people that have don't know who Ed Gein is?
00:39:44:12 - 00:39:52:20
Stacey
Like, there's a lot of people who don't like my trainer was like, I watch this Ed Gein monster. It's amazing. I didn't know about this guy, but half of it is fiction.
00:39:52:22 - 00:39:53:05
Dr. John
Yeah.
00:39:53:09 - 00:40:04:18
Stacey
You feel that that was done that way in the series of Dahmer or in the Menendez? I felt that those were kind of realistic to me. I mean, from what I knew.
00:40:04:20 - 00:40:27:17
Adam Rockoff
What is you know, and this is actually I didn't think of this until now. But one of the things you're right about, and one of the things that strikes me is in this guy mini series, they do in some ways portray him as not. In some ways, they absolutely do. They portray him as the grandfather of serial killers, where everybody looks back to Ed Gein as sort of an inspiration.
00:40:27:17 - 00:40:46:16
Adam Rockoff
And when I say everybody, I mean the other serial killers suspect Bundy. All those guys, look back to him, and they really do sort of, the show, I mean, promotes him as, you know, the first. And it and in some ways, he was in the most well known and how he really has infused pop culture and he has.
00:40:46:20 - 00:41:09:16
Adam Rockoff
But what's interesting and, I'm going to bring it all back, is when you mentioned those other guys, like, like Ramirez and stuff. If you ask the man on the street, even today, even today, with this show coming out, but certainly before, Gene is not nearly as well known still as Bundy, as Dahmer, as speck, as Ramirez, as, you know, all those guys.
00:41:09:16 - 00:41:26:13
Adam Rockoff
Hillside Strangler, I mean, Son of Sam, you know, all those guys are burned in their consciousness. Now, we you meeting the three of us sitting here might know the name Ed Gein, and a lot of people do, too. But I guarantee you, we do. A little man on the street experiment. Not a chance that he's anywhere up there with these other folks.
00:41:26:15 - 00:41:36:12
Dr. John
Agreed? Agreed. You know, he's not talked about. You're right. Is is that some kind of, the beginning of of serial killing?
00:41:36:14 - 00:41:38:24
Stacey
Because he wasn't a serial killer, was he?
00:41:39:02 - 00:41:58:04
Adam Rockoff
Totally. No. I mean, yeah, you know, we can actually, we can spend the whole episode debating this, but by the strict definition of a serial killer, he was not. Unless. Doctor John, you want to correct me? He absolutely was not a serial killer. He killed two people that way. Absolutely, absolutely. My business partner, Alex, you know, is of the opinion.
00:41:58:04 - 00:42:17:21
Adam Rockoff
And many other people are that he did kill his brother as well. Who supposedly perished in the fire, but still, I mean, compare him to Gacy, to the green River killer to Bundy. And they're two. I mean, they're two different animals and probably pathologies. Unless I'm wrong, doctor John. No, no, I you could speak right on.
00:42:17:21 - 00:42:19:00
Dr. John
Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah.
00:42:19:04 - 00:42:42:15
Stacey
Yeah, it's a pathology of of again, it seems extremely infantile. Like he's very like Dahmer didn't. Well, they all seem sort of immature, but Bundy and Gacy and Son of Sam, they didn't have that same sort of like, oh, please do this, mama. You know what I mean? There's just sort of like, child like.
00:42:43:05 - 00:42:59:06
Stacey
Mentality. And I don't want to say anything that's. That sounds wrong or not sensitive. But there is such, you know, especially in the beginning of the show when his mom is chewing him out and he's sort of like meek, you know, he seems very young.
00:42:59:08 - 00:43:26:03
Dr. John
That does exist in some of the other famous, serial killers and serial killers that aren't famous that, you know, I've worked with and, and, evaluated, etc. their domination from a mom or a father, you know, is often a thread that runs through, but it's not any, causal effect. You know, it's not throughout all of the serial killers, but you do see that a lot.
00:43:26:03 - 00:43:49:06
Dr. John
But I think you're right, Stacy. It's to an extreme with with Eddie. That's why I like using the name. Because, you know, he was developmentally stunted. You know, he wasn't able to develop the kinds of human attributes that make you a successful individual. Maybe like his brother was sometimes somebody's successful young man.
00:43:49:06 - 00:44:06:21
Adam Rockoff
So the one thing I feel like in some ways we're not really doing the show a disservice, but we're we're being critical of it as opposed to saying what we liked about it. One of the things that I really did admire was that this seems like such a little thing to say, but the production design, I went to school up in Wisconsin, in Madison.
00:44:06:24 - 00:44:18:02
Adam Rockoff
Not not, not up a few hours north where we're playing field is, but I spent but I have spent time driving around that area, and they did do a fantastic job of creating that milieu. They really did.
00:44:18:02 - 00:44:32:15
Dr. John
I thought that, yeah, I thought as a series it was made. Well, but again, it's fiction. And, you know, because we're experts looking at this, we can kind of, pick apart, the, the, reality of it, but it was well done.
00:44:32:21 - 00:44:43:13
Dr. John
You know, the costume. Great. The scenes the scenes were great. The, you know, I was watching it also Adam and going. They did a good job of recreating that house, you know?
00:44:43:15 - 00:44:44:00
Adam Rockoff
Yeah.
00:44:44:02 - 00:44:45:19
Dr. John
The cost of a bundle.
00:44:45:21 - 00:45:09:00
Adam Rockoff
Yeah, absolutely. And one of the. And another one of the things, in terms of, fictionalizing the story is, again, not to keep, precipitating on other serial killers, but if you look at Gacy's story, a Bundy story, there's so much there. I mean, you know, every single one of the murders, I mean, Gene lived on mundane, boring life.
00:45:09:05 - 00:45:22:09
Adam Rockoff
There were these little spasms of violence. I mean, look, there's nothing more sort of grotesquely cinematic than when he string was burnished. Warden up like a deer. But his daily life, it's, you know, it's tedium. It really is.
00:45:22:11 - 00:45:44:05
Dr. John
I was telling station, I'm glad you brought that up, because I was telling Stacy as we approached this episode, I had a hard time getting through the series. Not because of the horror, but it was just like it was tedious. He is life, and I think you hit it on the head. You answered the question I had in my head, why am I having a difficulty here?
00:45:44:09 - 00:46:00:14
Dr. John
It was a well-made, show. There was some interesting aspects to it, but I was like, wow, this is a grind to get through for me. And you hit it on the head. He his life wasn't that interesting, right?
00:46:00:14 - 00:46:03:21
Stacey
I keep trying to watch it, and it's
00:46:03:21 - 00:46:11:11
Stacey
It's a little boring. Boring. So that and Dahmer I found to be fascinating. It was gross, but it was wonderful.
00:46:11:11 - 00:46:27:01
Stacey
And the the I love the the style of that, the costuming, the set, everything was great. His apartment. And I did love the Menendez brothers. It was a little to me, a little kitschy. Sometimes it was a little like, what's the word for it? It's like cutesy,
00:46:27:01 - 00:46:43:23
Stacey
I'll tell you this from, from my point of view, the Dahmer one, it seemed to follow because I've done a lot of, you know, research. It seemed to follow what happened with him and the people he killed and the and then amended Menendez brothers. We're still we don't none of us know whether or not his parents were horribly abusive to him.
00:46:44:02 - 00:47:04:08
Stacey
To them, I believe they were. But that was the way that that one was portrayed. So I feel like it gave us sensitivity toward the Menendez brothers, you know? And now I you know, I want them to be released now, this next one. Again, like I said, I only got through a little of it. It just didn't feel the same in terms of the intentional in the intention of the series.
00:47:04:08 - 00:47:10:13
Stacey
What is it trying to get? Is it trying to get new people interested in gain? It's supposed to to what is the what's the point of it?
00:47:10:17 - 00:47:27:04
Dr. John
Yeah. And also I think what you're talking about too, in terms of the production, is what Adam and I were talking about earlier on which that that that last episode, an audience, if you haven't seen it, the last episode ends with a dance number. Oh, it's like.
00:47:27:06 - 00:47:31:10
Stacey
I why didn't why didn't they call me? They could. I could have choreographed that. Yeah.
00:47:31:11 - 00:47:32:04
Dr. John
You know.
00:47:32:06 - 00:47:32:17
Stacey
I do.
00:47:32:17 - 00:47:42:21
Dr. John
They needed to because it was also a pretty bad dance number. People flailing around. It looks like a thriller. Like those blow up things that you care about. Oh, that just, you know.
00:47:42:23 - 00:47:45:18
Adam Rockoff
It was so silly. I mean, I assume that.
00:47:45:23 - 00:47:48:07
Stacey
Campy, campy, campy.
00:47:48:09 - 00:48:01:16
Adam Rockoff
It was. Yes, it was, it was beyond campy, but it was camp that didn't work sometimes, but it works perfectly in this case. In this case, in my humble opinion, it didn't it didn't fit the nature. And the tone of of the series or what.
00:48:01:20 - 00:48:03:00
Stacey
Exactly the tone.
00:48:03:00 - 00:48:19:19
Adam Rockoff
Should be. It was it was just too it was very cinematic. I feel like if the three of us could sit in the writers room when they were conceiving that, I feel like they said to themselves, listen, guys, let's take a big swing and try to, you know, do something memorable instead of being sort of jaw dropping and memorable.
00:48:19:23 - 00:48:43:11
Adam Rockoff
It just became, you know, goofy and, and a little silly and look, it's tough. I understand it is tough when you try to understand and get into a character's brain, especially a schizophrenic, like Gene wise, or anybody with mental illness. And you, sometimes you have to take these cinematic techniques, and use them to portray that mental illness.
00:48:43:11 - 00:49:07:07
Adam Rockoff
Sometimes I think it works perfectly. In this case, unfortunately, you know, I didn't I think overall, if the series, you know, could have been compressed into a fewer episodes and if we or if they excised some of the parts that I think didn't work, it would have been a much stronger, better and more fulfilling series. But, you know, there were also some parts that were, that were really strong and powerful.
00:49:07:07 - 00:49:08:23
Adam Rockoff
So I think it's a mixed bag overall.
00:49:09:06 - 00:49:23:13
Stacey
Menendez and I know I really love this this series, felt very, almost satirical in nature where it was like, oh, so over the top at certain points that you were kind of like, oh, is this supposed to prove a point to us?
00:49:23:15 - 00:49:44:13
Stacey
The first one, Dahmer no satire to me. And then this one, you know, where it's so. And that's what I like to look at. When you see a series like monster and you see all these different, takes on different characters, what is it that is trying? What is it that the public should bring from it? Get from it?
00:49:44:21 - 00:50:01:18
Dr. John
Like, you see, I like what you're saying because as much as we're being critical of the series, it we're you're praising the production and the, the making of the series and I, I'd have to agree again. It was well done. It was well done.
00:50:01:20 - 00:50:30:03
Adam Rockoff
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Not to throw my partner and, and best friend some praise, but I mean, if people really are interested in seeing, if they're interested in the life of Gwen, and, you know, if they're listening to this podcast, I assume they should be. They should watch his, his documentary, The Biography on Ed Gein, which was, released on A&E probably over 20 years ago now, but still to this day, even considering all the stuff that has been done said and shown about him since, that really is the most accurate and, to me.
00:50:30:08 - 00:50:32:13
Adam Rockoff
Yeah. And the best one.
00:50:32:15 - 00:50:34:22
Stacey
What the reason we did.
00:50:34:24 - 00:50:58:13
Dr. John
And we, we referenced that in our earlier episodes. So you know audience look, look towards our earlier episode when we had Alex Laster on here and he talked about the documentary, which it was documentary, it's based on reality. And as we said at the beginning in our introduction that this is a fictional portrayal. So look towards that documentary as, you know, a little more factual based.
00:50:58:13 - 00:51:01:18
Stacey
So can people find that documentary?
00:51:01:20 - 00:51:13:14
Adam Rockoff
You know what I assume they and I assume it's not only on A&E website, I assume it's probably on YouTube or other streaming services. Yeah. But you know, I don't know.
00:51:13:16 - 00:51:14:15
Stacey
Do you know who produced.
00:51:14:20 - 00:51:25:12
Adam Rockoff
It in my office? But I'm not inviting all the listeners to come. Yeah, I don't blame you and borrow it from my library, but yeah, look, if you want to seek it out and watch it, I think you'll be able to find it easily.
00:51:25:12 - 00:51:28:23
Stacey
Alex Masters happens to be my brother.
00:51:28:23 - 00:51:43:07
Stacey
And. No, we don't spend time in the kitchen talking about serial killers all the time. But we did grow up with a mother who loved true crime, which gave us a very nice introduction to serial killers, which seems a little weird, but it's not in our family.
00:51:43:07 - 00:51:47:05
Dr. John
So you were born to do this? Stacey
00:51:47:05 - 00:51:52:00
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:51:52:00 - 00:51:58:03
Dr. John
We need to wrap up and let Adam go. Yeah. Create more wonderful things that he creates. And so Adam, Adam.
00:51:58:04 - 00:51:58:18
Stacey
You're so.
00:51:58:18 - 00:52:09:23
Dr. John
Much again joining us. We can't thank you enough. And we will be plugging your work and praising you for the next 26 episodes, maybe 27.
00:52:10:00 - 00:52:31:16
Adam Rockoff
I didn't know, but I always, I always appreciate, the, the air time and thank you guys. And it was if anything, it was great just to you know, I'm so busy nowadays, but it was great to force me to watch something that I really should have been watching. So again, as much as we seem like we might have criticized the show, it was, it was an interesting eight hours that, that I got to watch it.
00:52:31:16 - 00:52:33:14
Adam Rockoff
So thank you for that. And thank you for having me.
00:52:33:14 - 00:52:33:24
Dr. John
All right.
00:52:34:01 - 00:52:40:04
Stacey
And one more question. If they were to do another monster series, Adam, what would you like to see?
00:52:40:06 - 00:52:41:03
Dr. John
Good.
00:52:41:05 - 00:52:47:02
Adam Rockoff
That's that's actually an excellent question. And you're putting me on the spot. So just give me 10s to think about, okay? Because I'm.
00:52:47:02 - 00:52:47:19
Stacey
Curious.
00:52:47:19 - 00:52:56:11
Adam Rockoff
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I'm trying to think of an obscure one, that people might not know about.
00:52:56:11 - 00:53:16:22
Dr. John
Can I see it? Can I tease you a little bit, please? Please remember what? Alex, we asked this question to Alex Blaster on there. We did so. And do you remember what his answer was? If he was going to direct and produce, a episode or a documentary on a serial killer, he would do.
00:53:16:24 - 00:53:21:11
Adam Rockoff
Well, I have my answer now, but I forgot, you know, you answer first.
00:53:21:13 - 00:53:22:12
Dr. John
H.H. Holmes.
00:53:22:18 - 00:53:25:03
Adam Rockoff
That's exactly what I was going to say. Sorry. Yes. As.
00:53:25:03 - 00:53:26:03
Stacey
I h h was, he.
00:53:26:03 - 00:53:46:16
Adam Rockoff
Was asking me. Yeah. For people who don't know, I mean that that the h h Holmes story has been sort of floating around Hollywood for decades now. Leonardo DiCaprio was attached at one point. I mean, and he is, you know, during, the Chicago Exposition, H.H. Holmes had a house of horrors where he had all these trap doors that fell into vats of acid and oh, my God.
00:53:46:19 - 00:54:03:14
Adam Rockoff
Yeah. I mean, it is just it is a crazy, crazy story. And the fact that nobody has done it and there's been, you know, 50 million shows about Dahmer and gain is just it makes no sense. But, Yeah, Alex is right. And that's the one I would pick to Holmes.
00:54:03:16 - 00:54:04:06
Dr. John
All right. Great.
00:54:04:07 - 00:54:05:11
Stacey
That was a great answer.
00:54:05:14 - 00:54:08:14
Dr. John
I'll write it up. I'll wrap. I'll be glad to write the screenplay.
00:54:08:14 - 00:54:13:19
Stacey
Yeah. And I think you can do the series. Adam. And I'll hire the actors to be done. Done and done.
00:54:13:21 - 00:54:14:02
Adam Rockoff
From.
00:54:14:02 - 00:54:18:07
Stacey
Your life. Million dollars from the gods. Yes. Thank you. Adam.
00:54:18:07 - 00:54:21:16
Adam Rockoff
Thanks, guys. Take care. Appreciate it. Take care. Good to see you soon.
00:54:21:16 - 00:54:26:20
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:54:26:20 - 00:54:44:23
Stacey/Dori
Stay tuned next week where we explore and dive into unknown number high School Catfish on Netflix, where you're going to hear about an amazingly crazy case and hear all of our opinions on that.
00:54:45:03 - 00:54:46:07
Stacey/Dori
Can't wait.
00:54:46:16 - 00:55:04:24
Stacey/Dori
Our theme music is written and performed by Midnight Current, and you can hear more from them on SoundCloud. Please visit pod Candy podcast.com to learn more about us and listen to all of our episodes, or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:55:05:05 - 00:55:06:13
Stacey/Dori
Thanks so much.
00:55:07:05 - 00:55:10:05
Speaker 1
Candy.
00:55:10:06 - 00:55:25:00
Unknown
I.
00:55:25:02 - 00:55:33:16
Unknown
Really?