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Small group leaders, pastors, and more discussing strategies for growth and community in church groups. The Small Group Network is an international ministry that equips churches to engage in deeper discipleship and community.
Hello and welcome to S G squared.
Steve Gladen on small groups.
I'm James Browning.
And this is a very special episode
of Steve Gladen non-small groups.
This episode, we are featuring a
panel conversation featuring Steve
Gladen, Dave ENS from north coast.
And Rick Howerton from
lake point church in Texas.
It's moderated by Carolyn Takita
long-time member of the small
group network, former small group
point person and a former attorney.
So this conversation comes
from the lobby conference that
just took place in February.
Each year in February, we meet in
Southern California for a small
group point person networking event.
Each of the three members of the panel
and Carolyn as the moderator have
decades of small group experience.
So this panel is a unique look at what
they wish they knew going into small
group ministry and what they thought
they knew, but it turned out to be wrong.
Additionally each one's role
has changed over the years.
They've all navigated church
leadership transitions.
And many of the, the challenges
and highs and lows that come
with small group ministry.
It was a great time with a big crowd
of over a hundred people in attendance.
And.
in a conversation that was not only
enlightening, but fun as each person
got to give their own perspective
on their decades of experience.
Let's listen in now.
But as they're, as they're
making their way up, we have, we
have an all star panel tonight.
of Miss Carolyn Tequeta.
The extraordinary
attorney, Carolyn Tequeta.
Small groups, coach,
consultant, extraordinary.
And, uh, we have the Famous
Dave Enns of North Coast.
You have your own fan club.
And before you get real excited,
he paid most of those people.
We have Steve Gladen, founder of the Small
Group Network and the event we're here.
And he pays me, so I can't
say anything bad about him.
And then we have Rick Howerton
here, all the way from Texas.
Who, who did not pay anyone, and
so these are the genuine fans.
Yes, so as I'm gonna hand this
over, I would like to encourage this
section to have A Muppet Mentality.
Now, do any of y'all know, uh, Waldorf
and Statler, the two old Muppets that
just sit there and heckle everybody?
This is the panel to heckle right here.
This is Oh my gosh!
This is the one.
Now, I would not Thanks, James!
I would not go for Carolyn.
She We'll see, we'll get you back,
but the other three are fair game,
so I'm going to hand this over
to you, and we'll get started.
Oh, you got yours?
Yes, am I on?
Yes.
All right, I love how
James sets expectations.
We know how important that is in small
groups ministry, so let's withhold
the heckling for a little bit.
We're working on self compassion and
other compassion, so let's do that.
Um, it is my joy and honor to
to be up here with these guys.
I know them personally for many years.
Um, like Rick, I think we met at
a lobby and Dave, I know we did.
We shared, uh, carrot cake and
then we were friends forever.
That's how you bond through carrot cake.
And then Steve and I've known
each other for 29 years.
So it's, it's a long, long haul.
And so I can say as a testimony that
they are amazing ministers of the gospel,
but they're also incredibly humble,
um, generous men that have served.
Um, they're like.
What do they call it?
The ride or die small group people.
And a lot of times people use small
groups as a, um, stepping stone onto
something else, which is totally fine,
because people have different callings.
But these guys have been in the
trenches of small groups ministry
for multiple 30 plus years each.
And then I guess I'll add my 17 in that.
So we have like 120, 140,
I don't even know how old.
But all of us together, this is a lot of
experience up here, and a lot of wisdom.
And we only have 40 minutes, so we're
gonna You know, put on your seatbelt.
We're gonna go fast.
I talk fast anyway.
I'm sorry.
I apologize in advance.
We're gonna go fast, but hopefully
you'll catch some nuggets for
your, um, for your ministry, but
also more for your leadership.
If you want to do ministry in
the long haul, um, these are
models of how you, you survive.
and thrive and meet God in
the crucible of ministry.
And I think these guys both, all
three of them, have demonstrated
this over time in beautiful ways.
And so I'm so honored
to be here with them.
And so with that, I'll read
a little bit of their intro.
And they have very
different personalities.
Um, and we're not going to
go read their whole intro.
You can Google them.
You can read all about their books, their
models, their churches, blah, blah, blah.
It's all fabulous.
It's all fantastic.
So just throw that out there.
I say that with all love and sincerity.
Because the internet
is so trustworthy, so.
Okay, but ChatGPT is, so feel free
to, to throw it, throw it there.
So throw it there.
Alright, so about each of them,
you probably know them, but
here's just a little snippet.
Rick Howerton, to my left, he has spent
13 years as a small group discipleship
specialist at LifeWay Christian Resources,
which is a publishing company, for
three years with NavPress as their small
group expert, and five years at Kentucky
Baptist Convention, church consultant
for the south central region of Kentucky.
And then Rick presently serves
as a Central Groups Pastor for
Lake Point Church in Rockwell,
Texas, which is a church reaching
nearly 30, 000 on a weekly basis.
Um, he's been a church planter, a pastor,
a groups pastor, a campus minister,
teaching pastor, and church consultant.
Whew, that was a lot.
I can't keep it down.
There have been a lot of transitions.
Scott keeps giving you new assignments.
He's also authored multiple books
and studies, and the latest is
going to be released this summer.
called The Perpetually Growing
Church, Best Practices of America's
Most Influential Churches.
Which is going to be fabulous and he'll
be doing consulting and stuff around that.
So, um, that is Rick.
Okay, Dave, and he
brought his own fan club.
Dave, way to, way to go, way to go.
Um, Dave has been the lead small
groups pastor at North Coast.
That's the Sticky Church, if you've
heard of that term, since 2003, and
he's helped this church grow from 700
to over 10, 000 in weekly attendance,
and they're now in 10 campuses.
Um, he's recently released his
book, Circles Not Rows, The Power
of Small Groups and Strategy That
Works, which is a systemic guide
to assist churches in establishing
groundwork for small groups ministry.
Um, and you can look up that
book as well, and that's like
fresh off the press, right?
Like this last year.
That's so great.
Okay, and then Steve
did not give me a bio.
So, let me just say, Steve Bladen,
I googled him, he has been the
small, small groups, groups, uh,
pastor at Saddleback since 1998.
That's it.
No.
No, he has.
I'll take it.
I'll take it.
Oh my gosh, his resume is a little too
long, but just so you know, most of
you know, that he, he did start the
small group network about 16 years ago.
Um, I was privileged to be part of
that from the ground floor up, and this
has been a labor of love and service.
But he's also written Small
Groups with Purpose, Leading Small
Groups with Purpose, Planning
Small Groups with Purpose.
Any other purpose books coming your way?
That's been translated into 15
languages, and um, his, his heart
for groups now beats just as strongly
as it did many, many years ago.
Alright, so with that intro, and
if you do want to learn more,
they're going to stick around
after, you know, the evening things.
You can come make note of who you want
to ask questions about, just because
we won't have time for all of it.
Although, I do, do appreciate some
of the questions that did come in.
Alright, so, what is one thing?
That you, if you could go back in a
time machine and go back to your first,
um, less than five years in ministry.
How many of you here have been
in ministry less than five years?
Okay.
Alright, less than five years in ministry.
What do you wish, um, you
had done differently and why?
And this is a question
for all three of you.
You want to start, Rick?
Sure, um, I would learn leadership.
So what I found out in the first
five years was I knew the group
ministry space after doing some study
and having lots of conversations.
What I found out, what I realized about
myself was I was knowledgeable in group
life, I was good with people, but I
wasn't a proactive, confident leader.
And without being proactive and being
confident, you don't move forward
with the agendas that God's given you.
So I'd hire Bill Donahue to help me out.
I agree.
Okay.
So I said we need to keep the answers
short, but that's a little too short.
One of the things, uh, as I look
back, thank you Steve, um, Steve,
uh, is, um, health versus growth.
And I would focus more
on the idea of health.
What does that look like?
Because a growth one is
always measuring knowledge.
And read your Bible, and so, and there's
so much good, especially it started as
a high school pastor with groups and all
of that, but also beginning to move more
into like, what is it health, who knows
you, and the power of those relationships.
So that would be the big thing, and
that's kind of my thing right now.
It's like, are you healthy?
Because I don't know how to measure
growth exactly, but I think I can
measure health a little more accurately.
I think for me, because I was a first
generation Christian, I think, If I
could say anything I wish I'd have
done more was, uh, reach out to others.
And I grew up in a generation where
unfortunately that had to happen
through letters to churches and had
to happen through buying cassettes,
which nobody knows about, and having
to do other things, you know, that.
But, uh, just take a more proactive
way to make sure you have someone
close to you that you can be a, be
that, uh, person that you can confess.
temptation to before you have to confess
sin and having the going after the person
not to be will you mentor me but could I
have coffee with you and then you will get
the mentor so you be so being much more
aggressive going after someone to be hand
in hand with you because most people are
more I have found to say yes all the time.
Especially in small group space.
And this is a great place to
find the people like that.
Your mentors, your person who
is just a little ahead of you.
Which is partly what this
has been designed for.
Great.
What is something that you
thought you knew about ministry?
And this could be in later
in your ministry career.
Um, and reality knocked you upside the
head and you realized you did not know.
Steve?
I'll take first cut at it.
I, I, I think it's, it's
a very practical one.
I think.
Uh, honoring the Sabbath.
And I, and I think one of the things
that, uh, I discovered was, is it's
not just about doing, it's about being.
And if you know me, I'm a full on doer.
The Mary Martha thing.
Cut it outta my Bible a long time ago.
, uh, so cleaned it up.
But, uh, dis dishonoring the, I can
honor a lot of the tactical things.
Tithing, no issue.
Other things, no issue.
Bible reading, no issue, stuff like that.
But they come very checkboxy.
But the heart piece of, uh, a Sabbath
would be one I would really wanna
encourage people to, to dive into.
Mine would be, um, when it comes
to recruiting leaders and people
involved in ministry, that's why I got
involved to get more people involved.
So I'm asking them to get involved
and then they would tell me no, and
I'm disappointed and I'd be done with
them and, which is normal, right?
We're disappointed and then we move on.
And I suddenly realized
that I was using them.
I was getting them to fit the box
that I wanted, because I was done
with the conversation, and I think
it was the Holy Spirit flowing in or
whatever, but all of a sudden I said,
Hey, well, can you pray for me as I'm
continuing to look for new options?
Because I, I call, we were, we recruit
through referrals, so somebody's
already said they've got good input.
And all of a sudden I latched onto
that, and I asked them why, and I
realized I suddenly was beginning to
build a relationship, and that I, I'm
like, I should never stop calling them.
And I said, Hey, can I call you in a year?
And, um, and then I would
check in with what's going on.
And they would say, yeah.
And I actually would say, can you
think for a couple days and see if
you come up with any options for me?
I'll give you a call back.
And.
I found, and our team has found,
all of a sudden we're calling
these people back and we're asking
them, Hey, how did your year go?
Not starting with the recruit thing.
And we have these relationships
that are happening and they're
starting to give us options.
They're involved in ministry, not
that I thought, but far beyond it,
and blessing me and praying for me.
And that's been an amazing
thing, because it softens the
no, because they're never easy.
But suddenly it's like, wait, we're I
really genuinely care about what they want
to do, not just what I need them to do.
That's great.
That's an easy one for me.
It would be, what is discipleship?
What does it mean to make disciples?
My first part of my journey was, if I
could just get more people in groups,
let them be in community, let them love
each other, let them care for each other.
Then as I started understanding Jesus
practice of making disciples, the
realization was if we let them lay in
comfort, they never grow spiritually.
In fact, my statement often is
spiritual growth begins with discomfort.
The Bible calls you out to
do something beyond yourself.
You have to act in faith to move forward.
It's uncomfortable and you grow.
So I think so often in my ministry
it was I'm held accountable for
the numbers, but God holds me
accountable for disciple making.
And at the point I realized that
I had to, um, guide my leaders to
call people to acts of obedience
that were beyond their comfort zone.
It was at that point we were
going to make mature disciples.
And Steve once said to me in a
conversation, and I've, it, it really,
it really started me in this journey.
He said, Jesus said, come follow me.
And it was three years before
he said, come die for me.
So he was raising the bar.
If you look at scripture, raising the
bar, raising the bar, raising the bar,
raising the bar, now come die for me.
So I think my thing would definitely
be, we have to help our leaders
raise the bar, raise the bar,
raise the bar, raise the bar.
Cause it may be that someday
they have to die for him.
So a follow up question to that, and
this was actually related to a question
that came in, um, from one of you.
So how do you inspire and
encourage people who like comfort?
You know, we like comfort.
How do you inspire them?
If you want the leaders to
raise the bar, how do you, you
stir that up in the leader?
You want me to start there?
Sure.
Okay, yeah.
So, um, Craig Groeschel once said,
People do what you lead them to do.
So we have to decide, first of all, if
we're going to lead them to that place.
We inspire people through story.
So all of us who have read books
of martyrs, uh, and read stories of
martyrs, we're inspired by those stories.
But when it comes to making sacrifice
for the kingdom, Jesus reminded us
again and again and again and again.
Must give up your house, if necessary.
He had no place to lay his head.
Must be willing to give up family.
Uh, father and mother, wife
and children, brothers and
sisters, yes, even his own life.
Jesus warned us and prepared us for it.
We have to help them realize sacrifices
are not a secondary possibility.
For those who are living the Christian
life, in our culture, they will be
perceived as religious fanatics.
And yet God may call us to
be that bold in our faith.
So, we have to raise the bar, help them
understand the possibilities, as Jesus
did warn them about what might happen, but
remind them of the blessing that comes at
the point you're with Christ and he gives
you the rewards that are offered you.
I guess that would be with the, yeah.
Yeah, I, to piggyback on that too, I think
we underestimate how much time it takes.
And we, we teach an idiom that in order
to speak truth into somebody's life, it's
got to be built on a platform of trust.
And the only way they can trust
you is by spending time with them.
And although, and when you're talking
about moving people along a discipleship
pathway, or, you know, helping them
grow closer to Christ, it causes us, we
have to speak truth into their lives.
And if you haven't spent the time
with them, they won't trust you.
And so, part of it is, is going
in that spending time with people,
sometimes they need comfort.
Sometimes they need prodding.
Sometimes they, they need different parts
of the shepherding tools that are there.
Sometimes you gotta have the, the spoop,
the poop scooper so you can clean up
after them, you know, and there's,
there's many different parts of what
you've gotta do as, as a shepherd,
but it all starts by spending time
with people and, and as you know, any
of you that have kids, you, you don't
disciple them, you know, in a quick shot.
It's always Seizing the moments
that you're in that time moment
with them in a time that you
can just help take them closer.
My answer is a little bit
different in that we avoid the
word pathway in discipleship.
We We'd look at it going people grow
in a need to know, need to grow basis.
In other words, there's not because of
a class or a situation, but it is in
relationship that you're caused to grow.
And what Steve is saying is
we're very tied into that.
We need to build a friendship with people.
So our life groups are if not focused on
Bible study, though, there's Bible study.
They're focused on
building that relationship.
And if they are hearing from everybody and
involved, there's going to be conflict.
So we assume conflict is automatically
happening in every group.
And so they are, the bar is getting
raised at those different times.
And so that's what we're evaluating, of
like, are our groups staying together?
We know they're having conflict.
Now here was the interesting
thing is that we started offering
even community service stuff.
And when we put it together in such a
way that was doable, it's incredible
how involved they are in ministry.
We're doing, there's like, It's
incredible what's going on.
We're doing, there goes my phone again.
Over, you know, four service
projects a day throughout the
year, through our groups, using
non profits in the community.
So it's, and I know I'm not like
talking about a spiritual knowledge
track, but an action track.
And once we've done that, we have
just seen, um, This all of a sudden,
this, this just sense of continuing
to bring people more into community,
opening up groups, recruiting
leaders, and again, seeing those lives
change, new leadership stepping up.
So, there you go.
Which is the, which is the stories
that we're talking about, right?
So then there's the modeling piece.
If you're not doing it, you can't call
people to what you don't have, which
is, you know, we heard again last night,
and then kind of the, the long process.
I think.
For me, with um, when I got into ministry,
I really thought it would be faster.
I really thought, why
don't people want to grow?
And so I think just that word
of patience, it takes longer.
If you're newer in ministry, just know it
takes a long time for people to change.
And you gotta stay in the, in the
game with them for a long time.
I think that's a really good word.
Alright, so now let's switch
gears a little bit and talk
about organizational leadership.
Um, most people in this room are not
lead pastors, so we don't sit in the
first chair, we sit in the second,
third, fourth, depending on how big
you are, fiftieth, I don't know.
Some of these churches are huge.
So, in whatever chair you're sitting
in, so the challenge is to lead up well.
Lead across well, like your team, and
then lead your volunteers and lead
people that are dependent upon you well.
So let's start with the toughie, which
is the lead up well, and the one that is
tied to your professional development.
So, in leading up well, what is, um, a,
either, you can either answer with what
is a good tip, Pro, or you can answer
with, um, what is a pitfall to avoid?
And thank you to, um, the person
who gave me that word, pitfall.
I thought that was really lovely.
So if you have a pitfall that
perhaps you've fallen into,
please share and let us know.
So we won't fall into that.
So leading up tips.
Go for it.
And would you define leading
up for me just really quickly?
Um, leading your lead pastor, your
executive pastor, whoever is your
supervisor, the decision maker.
Yes.
Okay.
For me.
Steve actually gave me this information.
I'm going to steal your answer, I'll bet.
You can't wait to hear it.
So Steve once told me when we were having
a conversation about this, he said, You
need to learn your pastor's love language.
And speak to them with that language.
Because at that point you've
connected at a heart level.
He didn't say this, but you've
connected at a heart level.
And at that point you're
going to gain a hearing.
Because they realize you're
caring for their heart more than
you're caring for your own heart.
I agree totally.
Uh, again, different leads.
Larry was leading, now Chris is
leading, different supervisors, and
they all have a different way they
want us to communicate to them.
Some want to process more, some do not.
And then here's another one is,
we kind of say like there's three,
if you do these three things, life
will go well for you at North Coast.
Be honest, show respect, and no surprises.
If you do those three things,
life is going to go well for you.
Because if something's going
down in my ministry, I want them
to know about it before they
hear about it from someone else.
And, um, and that's happened.
And all of a sudden, dang
it, I didn't do that.
And I got nailed on the other side.
It's like, wait, why didn't you know?
I couldn't stand up for you.
I didn't know.
Now they try to, always.
But that really helps that.
So that's been one of our, our things.
Yeah, I think a lot of it happens
with the relationship too, and
it just depends where you're at.
You know, I've gone, gone through
a season when, when I first came
on staff at Saddleback in 98.
Um, you know, I, I, you learn what,
like Rick talked about, I learned
what Rick's love language was.
But I think as I, I got to know him
more and stuff like that, it was
learning when was the appropriate
time that he wanted to hear stuff.
And sometimes, when I'm in an anxious
place, I want to go to a speedy
place in the most opportune time and
sometimes my timing is not his timing.
So learning how to pace that
out, it was a, it was an
important piece for me with that.
And it's probably my number one pitfall
is just I'm wanting to get it done.
I'm wanting to execute off of it.
I, I know it's something
that needs to happen.
And then I think the thing I've
learned more in life is just that.
There's a timing to everything
we want to see happen.
And as Andy is onboarding at Saddleback,
there's things I wish were happening
right now, that I want right now, and I
want him to communicate like what Rick
used to communicate, but, you know, Rick
had 42 years in the chair right there,
and Andy's got 16 months right now.
And so giving grace in those moments
and helping whoever you're seeing
your leader is, helping them see
you as a friend, not as a foe.
Helping them see that you're
trying to help accomplish what
God has put on their plate.
Because first and foremost,
I'm called to, to minister to.
Uh, uh, is Jason in the room?
How are you are back there?
So I have to talk real nice, but I'm
first and foremost called to, to work
with Jason and for Jason and help
his agenda move further with our,
his whole scope in ministries per se.
And then whatever, when God opens up other
things is trying to serve, you know, where
the groups areas are and seeing those
things, so coming around and having the.
I would say the best coaching I'd say
is have the whole church mindset instead
of your mindset and life will catch up.
Can I share a pitfall?
Sure.
A pitfall I see in consulting churches
is when, if you're not being successful,
your leader is not going to give
you more trust and more opportunity.
Pitfall I see often when I have
been consulting a church is the
staff member says I'm killing it.
I mean, with the pastors, I'm
walking through and they get
to them and they go, they suck.
I mean, they're horrible.
They're horrible.
A little mismatch.
The problem was one person,
as a matter of fact, so, so the problem
was one person thought this is what
success was and the other person
thought this is what success was.
There is nothing wrong with going to your
supervisor and saying, what is success?
And then you'll know you're hitting
the target that needs to be aimed at.
Yeah, I think, actually,
that's such a great point.
And I think, along with that, it helps
if you help your supervisor know you.
So, I, I need an information
or I get anxious.
So I would tell my Executive
Pastor, I'm, I'll, I'll be with you.
I'm a great follower if
I know where we're going.
I just need a heads up before.
Um, you make a big announcement because
I, I need time to, like, process it.
So if you give me that, then
I will be like, have your bag.
I will, you know, cast that,
talk about that everywhere and
be your, your person out front.
But I can't do that.
And so I'm like, I just need
that just a few minutes first.
And that was just to equip them.
They don't know you.
They don't know what is going to be
a land, emotional landmine for you.
What may trigger you.
So it's good to just, we need to know
them, but also help them to know us.
Let me add just a couple things, too,
is sometimes you're going, I don't
know how to do that with your lead.
Get somebody that can help you.
Wait, that's gossip.
No, it's not.
Gossip is when it's not
helping the situation.
You want someone to help you.
You want them to win.
So that's one of those things.
And then a couple, few years ago,
what, four or five years ago, I
hired Phillip Byers over there.
And so he came in on our team.
And so, yeah, this guy here in the
middle, he's way bigger than me.
So he's frightening.
But anyway, um, and so, uh, so my
conversation with Philip was, Hey, buddy,
I'm so excited to have him on the team.
We're both very strong leaders.
And we said, we are going to step
on each other's toes and we're
going to tick each other off.
And we have to be committed to
working that out to survive.
And that's exactly what's happened.
Which is a great segue to
how do you lead across?
Because over time, Phillip has more
responsibility and, you know, there's
times where we have a whole team and now
you have to move as a block together.
Exactly.
So any pitfalls or tips on moving across?
Yeah, we get, we get ticked at each
other, and all of a sudden we need to
get, we need to get space from each other.
But then it's like, wait, I need,
you know, he's come into my office,
steamed up, sit down, upset with
me, and I'm like, what the heck?
And vice versa.
But it's exactly what I say.
And, and so, but we, But
we're, we're committed.
We remind each other, Hey, this
is what we're committed to do.
I'm here for your best.
And sometimes that can't
happen in that conversation.
It needs to happen the next day in that.
But we are reminding each other
because we are watching others that
we are like, Wait, we don't, we
don't want to go that direction.
We want to go this
direction and it takes work.
And it's not easy.
Leadership is not easy.
It's not the hardest thing,
we're not doing the hardest thing
anybody's done, but leadership, but
anything worth much, costs much.
And so, anyway.
So Steve, you've led so many teams over
all the different, there's a lot of
transitions that sound like almost always.
So you've led all these teams on and off
and across, so any tips on leading across?
Yeah, I think one of them
is, is one is short accounts.
Is really good principle to get in there.
Just if you've got a problem, you know,
being able to go to that person and
just being able to, to talk to them and
just working through kind of like what
Dave and Phillip were talking about.
And, uh, with all of those pieces, I
think another great piece is just, you
know, learning who they are and who's
their family, where, where are they at?
Who are their kids?
You know, where, where's all those, those
pieces of who they are, where they bring.
Because a lot of times when you know,
like people who know me, they know
I've got, I've got more complexities
in my family than I wish I had.
But when they know those components
of me, there, there's more grace
given in, in, in that aspect.
And so when you know who they
are as a person, and this also
goes with your senior, this
just goes up, across, and down.
But the more you can know what makes
them tick, uh, you know, besides
personalities, and that's important.
But, you know, their marriage, if
they're married to a spouse, their kids,
their dynamics, and all those pieces.
The more you can know what we call like
their soft data, the personal data of who
they are, the more you can move across
very quickly, because it is proximity.
It builds empathy.
And so the closer you are to those
that you're working with, the more
empathy you have when they may step
on your toes in different situations.
And also to let yourself be known.
You know, invite them over into your life.
They might want to hang
out with you and your kids.
I know, it's shocking, but
sometimes, like, they want that.
So let them see you in all the
messiness and all the things.
I think that also builds
trust and vulnerability.
Alright, so, Rick, let's
turn to you on this one.
So, you've been in numerous churches, I
mean, I read that a long list, numerous
roles, um, in your denomination,
you've been a consultant, so you've
observed a lot of churches, and you've
been in multiple different churches,
different states, all the things, right?
Okay, so, what is a piece of advice
you have, um, that you'd offer about
how do you navigate through transition?
Sometimes you chose a transition,
sometimes you did not choose
the transition, and we know how
that rolls, and that's painful.
So, what are some guidance you can give?
In those times.
First, thank you for letting
everyone know I've been fired.
Thank you for that.
You know, it happens to everyone.
It happens to everyone.
To some extent, you're right.
Oh my gosh.
So you find, you find out stuff.
There's a club.
So I actually made a
short list on this one.
So if you'll forgive me, I'm going to
read from the list, but just to save time.
But first, let me say a transition.
We have to remember that we're not
the only ones making a transition.
We have spouses and children
that are making a transition.
And it's going to be harder for them, as
my wife always reminds me, than it is us.
Because we're walking into our church
building and have relationships.
So we want to be sure that
we're shoring them up first.
I think is the thing that I would say.
When it comes to the transition
into the church, my experience has
been, I have to remember that the
first thing I have to do is walk in
knowing I have no reputation at all.
So I can either shore up a strong
reputation, Or I can make decisions
and do actions that hurt my reputation.
So I made a quick list, I'll
just run through it real quick.
Um, listen more than you talk.
Sometimes we think we've been
hired to be the new big winner.
And nobody else on staff may realize
that, just the person that hired you.
So, um, honor present leadership.
Um, I'm 66 years old.
My supervisor's in this room, who
I love dearly and is a great guy.
We're friends.
Um, I oftentimes, it's yes sir, no sir.
And with the ladies on our team,
who are in leadership, or even my
peers, it's yes ma'am, no ma'am.
It's because you're Southern.
Well, maybe so.
Yeah, it's so polite.
It's so polite.
But I want them to realize that I am
honoring them, whether or not That
is the language that's normally used.
I want them to realize they deserve honor.
Um, the big one for me that
I've learned over the years is,
is to honor past leadership.
So the person that has gone before
me, so one of the leading, um,
Sunday school guys in the country
was Carter Shotwell who was at the
church prior in the role that I'm in.
And I often say to people, um, I, I
can't, I can't fill his shoes, but I'm
gonna try to walk in his footsteps.
And that's a nice line.
Let's just understand that I
realize he is the one that took 40
years to establish this ministry.
It wasn't me.
So that, that has been helpful.
Say that one line again.
Yes, I can't fill his, I can't
fill his shoes, but I'm going
to try to walk in his footsteps.
And then put at Steve Blake.
You know, it all belongs
to the Lord anyway.
You know, who cares about copyright?
Um, I'd work hard.
Just be a hard worker.
It seems so basic, but yes, it is.
It's actually basic, but you'll be amazed
at how many churches I've consulted
and the pastor said this person came
and we thought they were going to kill
it, but they just don't work hard.
And those first months, maybe
even that first year, you need
to dive deeply into that position
without sacrifice and family.
And then just one thing,
just one last thing.
I think this is just kind of
encapsulates the whole thing.
Be more wise than you are smart.
And what I mean by that is oftentimes
I'm going to walk in and tell you all
the books I've read and all the knowledge
I've gotten, et cetera, et cetera.
Be much wiser just to
say, I don't know at all.
I'm learning with you.
Isn't he amazing?
He's so amazing.
Okay.
Alright, so, and it wasn't
that he got fired, by the way.
There was, there was a
structural reorganization.
I feel bad.
I'm like, at the time, I'm like, why
would anyone ever not ask for Rick?
I know.
It's, it's true though.
Okay.
I already forgot about it, but thanks.
That's so true.
Okay.
So as you guys, we all learned a lesson.
We should just let it, let it go.
Let it go.
That's a pitfall.
It is.
I've just fallen in,
fallen in my own pitfall.
Just wanted to model that for you all.
This is the one not to do.
All right.
So Dave, we know this is, you know,
also on the statistics for pastor
burnout since COVID is at a record high.
And I think the average pastor is
at a church for about three years.
Um, you three are outliers have
been doing this work for so long
in, um, you know, and for you in the
same church that you attended like
even longer than you were on staff.
So what is the secret to
staking the course and not just
surviving, but really thriving?
Because that's what I've seen you do.
I've been there 34 years, April 1.
So that gives you some context.
Um, but it was the church.
I want to be really clear.
It's the church that fit
me to be there that long.
Does that make sense?
Because there's some churches there that
you're like, you're there, you need to go.
It's just not working.
It's not the right fit for you.
Now, if you're just always
popping around and going, you're
not working through stuff.
You need to do that.
So, but.
North Coast continue, I couldn't be a
small groups person for 20 years in a
church I don't think that was growing
because I need new now you like because
leading small groups is kind of the
same thing over and over again But
because we continued to grow starting
at 700 way back and now at that big
number on the other side now I had to
continue to remake my leadership style
So that was one of the keys that worked
for me now if that wouldn't have gone
on would I still be at North Coast?
I don't know I just don't know.
And so, so that's that piece there.
So, real quick though, like what has
kept me the long haul or keeps me fresh?
Thriving.
Because you're, you're thriving.
And you've moved around.
And so, um, rhythm is one.
It's like, some seasons are insane.
You're not in and that's just how it goes.
You just can't live there.
I think that's pretty I think we most
of us understand that It's just that
every year or every season can't be the
season that you're going as hard as you
can So it's not like perfect balance.
The next one is get help Be willing to
get help our world now even ministry
is more open to us dealing with stuff.
That's difficult I mean our
topics have already been there.
It's like I'm having a hard time and
we all are having a hard time at times
right Can we just call that and it's like
that is part of it And I think there's
two or three times where it was major
stuff where my wife and I In regards to
ministry, we're like we've got a we don't
know if this is working and I'm at a great
church We don't know if this is working
or I have lots of questions about it.
We got to get help So we kind of
working through purpose working through
life getting other other input into
our lives is super super important
and then two last things is I I I sat
with my church, my wife, almost every
weekend for at least during the sermon.
Now, everybody can't do that,
but I have multiple services.
I'm in all the services, but one service
I tried to always sit with my wife.
And a lot of times I have to get
up and leave cause stuff, right?
But that became, it was
just, we didn't talk.
I mean, we're listening for the most part.
Um, and, but that was just something
we were doing together and we
were in a life group together.
And so that's just what we have
done throughout our whole time.
We're doing that life together.
And then the other one, because my
marriage and my kids are way more
important than my ministry out there.
And so the other one is my kids all
know this saying is never let school
get in the way of your education.
They all know that because Dad
wasn't always available on weekends.
So all of a sudden, Dad would pull
them out of school on Friday, and I
don't care what they have going on.
I don't care what their grade is.
We're going to go do something,
and they all know that.
And so that was just an important part.
And as we kind of, you know, they're
all out, and that's been a thing that
they've said they've been so thankful
for because Dad was available, not
available the same times all the time,
but available in ways that was unique
to them and met them, met their needs.
Yeah, I think you started to answer
this a bit about the tough seasons,
and I know in a room this size,
there are people in this season and
wondering, is ministry worth it?
Should I leave?
And we did get a question, um,
from one of you about when you've
experienced seasons where you felt
like leaving, um, what made you decide
to stay and how did you respond?
And you had some, Um,
some responses to that.
I didn't know if Steve, if you
or Rick wanted to add to that.
If you've ever had a season, ever
a perfect place called Saddleback
where you wanted to potentially
leave, you know, if you've ever been
walking through that kind of season.
First off, thanks for those
of you that interviewed me.
No, I think part of that is, it
sounds like a such a trite statement,
but to know, to know your calling.
And, and that, that requires,
there's sometimes, uh, cause I,
prior to Saddleback, you know, I
was on some different church staffs,
different seasons, shorter seasons,
and, and sometimes God is loosening
your roots and, and moving you on.
Sometimes your calling is at that place.
And I think that is, is helped me because
there's, there's different backgrounds.
A lot of times you're
praying for different things.
One of the things when I came on staff and
at Saddleback and we started to have kids,
I, I, I prayed and I said, God, if we
could be at a church where my kids don't
have to move, that maybe that something
that happens, maybe it doesn't happen.
But if that could be a prayer.
Then I would love to see that happen.
And then there are the opportunities
where God's like going, Really?
Okay, how, how much do you
want to pray that prayer?
And all of a sudden, when tough
times come, But so it, there,
there's art and there's science.
And so much time we try to think,
you know, Is this job perfect for me?
Is this, do I make more
money at the next church?
Do I get more stuff at the next church?
Do I have a cozier
lifestyle at the next thing?
And it becomes all about the
science, you know, what do I
get when I go to that church?
Versus the art of being able
to say, does God want me there?
Does God want me to
work through something?
And so I, I, I would say I'm
comfortable enough to know in my
calling that when times are hard,
I, I, if God has not released me, I
don't want to mess up something good.
And what I've experienced at
Saddleback, the times that I have
wanted to leave with such a passion.
Because, and there's been
luring things out there.
You churches in the south, how you
pay what you pay, I don't get it.
Uh, you know, it's either drugs,
tobacco, I'm not sure what.
Moonshine, I don't, yeah.
We, our problem was is we
legalized everything and so,
you know, we can't do anything.
But, but.
Okay, let's rein it in.
Carolyn coached me so bad, she goes,
please don't go off the subject.
But, with that, it's being able to
say, in those hardest of hard times,
I was comfortable knowing that when
it was all said and done, and I look
back at each season, God was saving me
from myself when I would go obey Him.
And that's where I would say, in the
moment, it didn't feel good, it didn't
make sense, but a few years down the road,
and I look back, God was really giving me
the desires of my heart and saving me from
the stupidity I probably would have done.
So, and I don't want to minimize some
people who are transitioning, need
to transition, but I would just dig
really deep into your calling, saying,
I believe that God moves us around.
And it has got you there.
Don't try and help God out.
That's great.
And hopefully you have somebody,
a wise mentor, that can
help you walk through that.
Because I know there was a couple times,
two times, where I called Steve and I
said, I think I'm done, I can't take this.
Um, and his question was,
do you feel released?
I'm like, who are you, my Holy Spirit?
No.
What the, what is happening?
I, I was looking for
empathy from my big mentor.
Instead, I got the Holy
Spirit, you know, smack down.
So I had to reconsider, okay,
what is this whole release thing?
Because in the corporate world,
you just go when you want to go.
Um, and actually, he was absolutely right.
I mean, after praying through it, and
then I would have missed out on another,
you know, five, ten years of, um, God's
blessing me through it and shaping me.
Well, yeah, hopefully,
hopefully, hopefully.
Yes.
Um, there was, there was a great
question that It came in from
our Canadian friend, I believe.
Yes, and this is for you, Rick.
You don't know this question
because you didn't see this online.
It says, how do you equip leaders to
encourage their group members to go into
deeper places of spiritual formation, more
contemplative practices, inner healing,
et cetera, beyond the tangible markers
of discipleship and community, such as
giving, serving, small group, et cetera.
And then I guess I can read this
because this is on our public.
thing.
Um, it says Canadians can
be pretty private and not
intrusive about such things.
I don't think it's just Canadians.
I think it's people in
general, um, across the board.
But for spiritual formation,
how do you encourage them?
So this is vulnerability as well
as asking people to do something
that they, disciplines that
they need to be involved in.
Yes, but beyond the obvious
ones like Bible reading and, you
know, fasting, prayer, whatever.
How do you go deeper?
I think we look at Jesus as
the model and he was the model.
So if we don't model it, and tell the
story of our own journey in it, most
people aren't even going to consider it.
So it starts with us, honestly.
Our being willing, first of all, uh,
to do those things, and sincerely be
able to say we're engaged in them.
And sometimes to say, I had to set
aside, if we're talking about the
disciplines, I had to set aside on my
calendar, um, the time to do that, so.
Like the Sabbath.
My wife is, my wife is a godly woman.
To the point sometimes I wish
she would sometimes not remind
me that I'm not a godly man.
Should I text that to her right now?
Should I let her know?
Laughter.
So, so Julie is in the Word
probably two hours a day, praying
for people, engaging with people.
She disciples women, young
women, that's her thing.
And I hear their conversations
often from upstairs as she's
meeting with a group of people.
And I say, you would not want to be,
people say, would your wife disciple you?
I say, you don't want to
be discipled by Julie.
Why not?
Because when you come in and you're,
You, you just want to sit down during
the meeting and just talk about all
the problems you have and your husband
isn't nice enough to you, she's
going to say, are you going to God?
Are you in the word?
Are you walking with the Lord?
Because if you're not, you're going to
have a, you're going to have a perverted
view of everything around you because the
enemy can win at those, in those moments.
So first of all, you have to be
willing to be held accountable.
And that has to be established before
you start holding someone accountable.
You can't, you can't hold someone
accountable if they haven't given you
permission to hold them accountable.
So that's, that's vital.
But then you have to
be the model for them.
And if you are the model for them,
what can't be taught will be caught.
And so I just think that would be
my perspective, giving you a very
quick answer off the top of my head
that those things are necessity.
Yes, especially something
like vulnerability.
We always tell leaders when we train
them, right, you have to go first.
If your group is only going to be as
vulnerable as you're willing to be.
Um, so, you then have to model
it for your group leader, so it
kind of continues down the pike.
Alright, so we have a few minutes
left, so I have just last round here.
Um, so Steve, I've gotten a bunch of
questions yesterday and today about how
long has Small Group Network been around.
Like, I guess James, we don't do
a great job telling our history.
So Steve, give us a recap of kind of
the heart of which you started it.
We started with 20 people, and here
we are, and this is a beautiful thing.
So tell us why this still matters
so much, even more now than ever.
Yeah.
I mean, part of how it came about, and
this is where we're better together, and
each one of us showing up, and how we,
we all, every one of our churches have a
specialty of some sort, and each one of
us have a specialty of some sort, and the
beauty is being able to share with each
other and come around with each other
in the good times and the bad times.
How the network started was, uh, you
know, God was laying on my heart in 06.
To, to, to use the platform of
Saddleback to be able to convene people.
Now, the beautiful thing is, since
06, you know, God has, you know,
blessed a lot of great churches that
we're networking with, that we're
utilizing all kinds of different
platforms that other churches have too.
But, the big thing is, is that we
want to come along the Big C Church.
But how God, and I don't know if you've
ever done this, I'd always say, I
didn't have the, I don't have the time
to do something outside my day job.
I don't have the ability to do
something out of my day job.
And God, I think someone else
would be better qualified
for it than me to do this.
And God gave me a situation where one
guy, uh, named John Grant, called on
a more, on an afternoon of one day.
And another guy named Eddie
Mosley called on the next day.
And they both were asking similar
questions and I said, Hey,
Eddie, do you know this guy?
And he goes, No, where is he at?
And I go, He's about ten minutes from you.
And so, it led to trying
to network together.
And sometimes what we've learned is
that sometimes we're great relationally
inside of our church but we don't
network outside of our church.
And the only way we're going to break
down barriers between the churches
is being able to get relationally
connected with each other and show
each other that we're on the same team.
If you've gone on a missions trip at
all, if your gun is pointed towards
the enemy, we're all on the same team
and our doctrine doesn't matter much.
But, you know, sometimes when we're
in the United States or Canada,
all of a sudden, you know, we're
back into our little fiefdoms.
And one of the things that we want
to do is we don't want something
that's built on Saddleback.
We don't want something
that's built on your church.
We want something that's built
together, that we can network with.
Because we want to resource
strategically everybody.
And we want to help
people connect personally.
But we also want to say, if we're not in
this globally, then we're going to miss
the whole calling of what Jesus said.
And so part of what I want to encourage
you is not to be a, just a spectator
out there and just come to an event
or, you know, see different things.
Right now we're more in the
digital world than we've ever been.
But a lot of what the network
does, it's because of you.
The questions that you see that
we're discussing, they were Carolyn.
Just me texting her across
the room saying, Hey, can
you think of some questions?
Our, our, our, our whole vision
statement to connect personally, to
resource strategically, impact globally,
came from Phillip's brain and his
exercising and doing strategic planning.
You know, those are just some small
examples, but people, there are churches
in your area because all of us get
calls from other churches that they
need the community that we can offer.
And one of the things is we're
not trying to make money.
But we are trying to be smart with God's
resources and a lot of you have, you have
great minds about different things in
community and leadership and discipleship
and spiritual formation and if you would
just look into a camera and help capture
some of that, we can bless other churches.
And so we just want to come around
and let's be the big C church
and, and I'll tell you, I don't
have time to do all of this.
And I know you have day jobs that
don't have time, but what I do know
is that when you tithe your time to
the Big C Church, God makes up for it.
And so, it's pretty brief, but I would
want to encourage you, if you'll give,
it's like when you give blood, if
you'll give, God will replenish it.
And I'm not going to try and take blood,
but, I, I, I am ready to take an offering.
Uh, so.
Some analogies always
kind of fall through.
Alright, so, we're going to wrap
this up, this final, final question.
If you, if you would, we would love
to partner with you, so if you have
skills and talents, and you're like,
I don't know what I have to offer,
see James, see Steve, let us know.
See James.
Yes, and James has really done
an incredible job making us much
more digital, much more savvy.
And so if you're like, I don't know
if I have anything to offer, but
I'd like to be involved in some way.
I have this much time or whatever.
Um, there's so many ways to be involved.
And that's how you become part
of the network beyond yourself.
And really your church is going
to be blessed as a result of
you blessing the Big C Church.
And you know, the cross
pollination has been super helpful.
I just encourage you to look at the
website, go to smallgroupnetwork.
com and just peruse through it.
Look through the different,
Is it updated, James?
Should they push through it?
They should, because it will be.
Uh, so But I want to encourage
you, look through that.
See what the Holy Spirit stimulates
in your mind, because I've talked
to so many of you, and doggone
it, you have such great wisdom.
And I hate to see it just in a
geographical area, but just expanded.
Alright, so final, final, um, question.
And this came from one of you as well.
So not, it's, this goes
back to you in modeling.
So, we are all small group practitioners.
However, you have to
live out what you preach.
So tell us what you most enjoy about
your, um, group or community that you
have that is holding you accountable.
And I know you all have them.
And what your small group experience,
what you enjoy most about them.
You personally, not your
ministry, you personally.
Go ahead, go ahead, yes.
That's what you get for being to my left.
So I'll be very vulnerable with you.
Um, I struggle, honestly, with insecurity.
Um, have my entire life.
It comes from being a Baptist pastor's
kid and watching pastors get beat up.
And, um, so my group of guys just
often remind me you're a good person.
God is using you.
Keep going.
Which is absolutely true.
Well, thank you for sharing that.
You have the gift of encouragement, Steve.
Nice.
So I'm a word of affirmation guy,
like you, and I need people to
say, you're doing a good job.
I believe in you.
Um, and I have to remind people to do
that at times, and that drives me crazy,
because I feel selfish, but I know,
and I'm a verbal processor, so I need
that, and then, so that's some of those
closest, and then the life group, we
have all ages and stages of faith in
there, and non believers, and the Holy
Spirit speaks through every one of them
to me, I try to take the leadership
hat off, and let them minister, and
I remind them, Over and over again.
God's speaking to you and It's rich
and when you're not there you don't
get it So we we would say the number
one discipleship things are personal,
but big deal is their best discipleship
decision Is get in a life group because
you access you do all the things you
wish you would do But you don't and
it's not about how disciplined you are.
Its tell me about your relationships
tell me who the people are in your
life and And it's great to laugh
and cry with the right people.
Amen.
That is what community is about.
And let's underscore what he said.
You have to be able to take
your leader hat off, your pastor
hat off, your staff hat off.
And if your small group is not one where
you can do that or they allow you to
do that, after you keep asking them,
I'm just, I just want to be level, just
be real, just be Dave, like then it's
not going to be super helpful for you.
Um, so that leadership hat
off thing is great too.
I remember when I came on staff, our group
has been together a very, very long time.
And those that have remained in Southern
California and haven't moved to Texas
or Nashville or other places, uh, you
know, but, uh, but it's, it's funny
cause we were doing a marriage study
and I'll never forget when, uh, our
group first started the, you know,
I was pastor Steve in our group.
And then when my wife shared
about our marriage, it was
like, Oh, you're not a pastor.
ahahahaha Lisa's the best.
And it ended.
But, um.
So sometimes the hat's taken off for you.
That is truth.
But I think, The best way I could
describe it for me is like when I'm here.
I didn't realize how much
I missed this community.
Until I missed it last year.
And I was by myself.
Um, but it, um, but when I'm with our
group, it's, it's there, obviously
there's, there's moments where the
Holy Spirit moves and there's studies
and there's all kinds of things.
But it's, it's just the little
nuggets through the day.
I mean, we, when we got, when we
started our group are, I think most
of us had one kid or we were pregnant.
And now that our kids are all in
their upper twenties and thirties.
They grew up knowing, knowing
us as auntie and uncle.
And just to have them go by, you know,
three of them are on staff now and then
they'll go by and say, Hey, uncle Steve.
And I just like, it is the endearing
piece of being able to say, this
is why community is so important.
This is why it's, it's just the,
it's the day in and day out.
And, and do we meet exactly every week?
52 weeks out of the year.
No, because life happens and crap rolls
up on our doorstep and stuff like that.
But do we, are we there for each other?
And are we, are we going
through the life moments?
And what, and for me with every
trial we've had with our son,
our group has always been there.
And has ministered to us in
ways that just nobody could.
And so it is one of those things.
I just, I feel so sorry.
for the people that may be on our
staff or in our church that don't
have that when it's not hard to do.
It's actually very fun to do.
And so it's the pieces with that.
I can't remember if I
answered your question.
You did answer the question.
It's the integrity of, if you're
going to stand up and talk about
groups for your church, the integrity
of being able to speak about your
own experience is going to go far.
And that's kind of what
you've heard from all of you.
So, thank you so much
for sharing your wisdom.
And you guys kept it brief.
We are on AI conversation.
So, let's give everybody a hand.
That's it for this month's episode of SG
squared, Steve Gladen on small groups.
This episode again, was recorded
at the lobby gathering a
small group gathering event.
And.
San Juan Capistrano, Southern
California, each February of every year.
So be sure to check out more details about
that@smallgroupnetwork.com slash events.
And we'll be sure to see you next month.
Right here on S G squared,
Steve Gladen on small groups.