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Best Beginnings is the podcast for everyone working in or caring about the early years. Hosted by George Looker, CEO of Babyzone, each episode brings together leading researchers, clinicians, practitioners, policymakers and parents to explore the evidence, ideas and innovations shaping how we support children and families in the UK.
From infant mental health and attachment to workforce challenges and systems change, Best Beginnings goes beyond the headlines to have the conversations that matter most in early childhood.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
Best Beginnings is brought to you by Babyzone, a national charity operating free, evidence-based family hubs across England for families with children aged 0–5.
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I think the biggest
mistake is that vaccines cause autism.
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I mean, maybe that's
the biggest challenge of parents often
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stress autism sort of often
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associated is social differences.
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And of course
there are also some differences.
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But what we see very early
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on, extensively difference is that we see
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higher rates of autism in boys
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and white
like we see in the general population.
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At a time
a child turns to 80% of their brain
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architecture is already in place,
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connections that shape how they learn,
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how they regulate emotions,
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and how they form relationships.
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Most of that is built before
they can even speak in sentences.
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And yet, as a society,
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we invest, at least in the years
that matter most.
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1 in 4 children
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start school
without the skills they need to thrive,
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not because their parents failed,
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because the system did.
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But we at Babies
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Own have learned over 86,000 families.
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The mistakes, the early years.
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At a time when many parents
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feel unsure or overwhelmed,
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even when things are going well,
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it doesn't always feel easy.
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But when families have the right
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to play the evidence informed guidance
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and someone simply saying
what your child is doing
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is completely normal, everything changes.
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I'm George
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and this is best economics
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podcast brought to you by BBC
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about what happens
in the first five years of life
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and why it shapes everything
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that comes after.
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Each week
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I talk to the people
who are thinking mostly
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about how to give every child
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the best possible start researchers,
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practitioners, parents and policy makers
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not to lecture you
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about what you should be doing
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to explore together,
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about what
actually works and what gets in the way
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that babies
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don't receive hundreds of parents
every year
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behind the laughter
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and playful moments with their children,
we also hear
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the quiet words is
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my child's development track?
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Am I missing something?
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These parents have questions.
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They have uncertainty.
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And then navigating a system
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that often feels
overwhelming and fragmented.
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That's why we work so closely
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with organizations like Pentecost
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and Local seven departments
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to help families navigate the system
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and ensure they aren't
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just left with the questions,
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but have a clear path to support a.
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My guest today
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has spent 20 years bridging the gap
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between complex neuroscience
and the practical reality.
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The design professor,
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Emily Jones
is the professor of neuroscience at King's
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College and leads the Bond Black Network
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that University Universalism
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is also the principal investigator of.
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Basis, the British Autism
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Study of Infant Siblings,
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which has followed
hundreds of babies from six months
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through to childhood.
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What makes Emily's work
so important for parents
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is this it's not about fixed predictions.
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Her research shows
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that developmental trajectories
can change.
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Some of the children diagnosed at three
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aren't diagnosed at seven.
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The science holds uncertainty
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in a way that actually helps families.
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Emily also believes research
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shouldn't just happen in wealthy Western
labs.
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She's taking neuroscience tools
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to rural India and Gambia,
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so every child can be understood.
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If you're navigating uncertainty
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about your child's development,
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this conversation should inform you
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without alarming you.
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Professor Emily Jones,
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welcome to Best Beginnings.
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Thank you.
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Thank you so much
for coming to visit us today.
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You've obviously spent decades
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watching brains develop in real time.
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What drew you to early years
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and the research that you're doing?
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So I think you make me
sad over the decades.
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But I first became interested.
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So university, I did sciences,
and I was really interested in
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in neuroscience, which at that point
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was a sort of emerging field.
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But my mum always used to run a show
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start center for children who,
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experience disadvantage.
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And for early development.
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So I was interested from that perspective,
from what it is
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that drives individual differences
in children.
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And I grew up in Oldham,
which is a very deprived area in the UK,
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and I moved to Cambridge,
and there are just vast
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differences in people's experiences.
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So that made me interested
in trying to understand what
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it was in early development
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and in children's early experiences,
and then that genetics
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that influenced some of these trajectories
going forward.
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So then I did a PhD in Sheffield in infant
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learning and memory development,
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and that was very much about what
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infants take from their early experiences,
what they do remember,
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what they don't remember.
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And some of that was looking at
how actually infants
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have really good memories.
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And the fact that they don't remember
when they come out of a context
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is because they actually remember
a lot of the specifics,
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which makes it hard to remember
things in different places.
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And as part of that
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process, I was running a voluntary group
for autistic kids,
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and parents would come in with a child
and with a younger sibling.
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So I then became really interested
in the differences between kids
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with developmental conditions and children
who didn't.
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Fascinating.
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So that's why my son can remember
something I said to him
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three weeks ago, but not necessarily
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where the shoes might be on a given day.
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Exactly, exactly.
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And so people often think that
because we often don't remember things
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in our own lives before the age of 3 or 4,
people used to think
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that was because babies
don't remember anything.
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And so people used to think
a long time ago
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that early experiences didn't
therefore matter that much,
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because you aren't going to remember them
anyway.
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But actually, what we know
now is that both
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infants are both laying down
kind of long term
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memories, and learning,
of course, about their early environment.
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But they also have
these super specific memories
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and they need to learn to transfer
those across different places in people.
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That's amazing.
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And so your lab is called Bond
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the brain and online neuroimaging,
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to study development.
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So for parents listening
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could you help us understand
what that actually means.
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What does your lab do on a day to day
basis.
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Yeah, we do tons of different things.
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So so we try the sort of core of
everything is to try to understand
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the individual differences and
particularly where they're coming from.
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So what other things in the child's
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brain, in their behavior
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to influence what they learn
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about the environment around them,
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what they pay attention to,
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and then also what we can do
to support their learning.
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So we use a lot of different techniques.
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So we have brain imaging measures.
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So EEG, which is a way of measuring
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the electrical activity in the brain.
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And it's a little bit
like a tape recorder.
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It just records the natural signals.
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So it sits on a baby's head,
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and they play and interact.
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We have another similar method
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that uses light to do a similar thing.
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And that's trying to ask, you know,
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what is it that engages a baby's brain?
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And what can that tell us about
what they're learning?
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So some of the online part of the,
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the title of our lab
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is that what we try to do
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is measure that brain activity,
while, for example,
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they're playing with somebody
or while they're
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looking at different toys.
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And we can try to use the signals
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we capture to work out which of those toys
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they're most interested
in, or what is it about what
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a parent does
that best captures their attention?
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And the idea is to help us figure out,
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okay, what can we tell parents or what
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can we suggest that that child
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might best learn from this?
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Amazing, and I guess, baby's own.
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We focus a lot on that serve
and return interaction
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that builds the brain
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architecture that you've been describing.
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I guess from a neuroscience perspective.
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Why is play based environment
the best place to observe
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those kind of early developmental markers?
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So firstly because
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that's the environments children room.
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And so if we want to understand
what in the brain
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is influencing how a child learns
and develops.
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The best place to do
that is in the context in which a child
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learns and develops.
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So, so from the work
we did really early on
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on learning and memory,
because we know that children
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have these very context
specific or place specific memories.
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That means that what you learn
when they're sitting in front of a screen
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isn't necessarily
what they're going to be doing
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in real life with their parents.
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So we want to be able
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to study that brain in those real life
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interactions,
because that's why they're learning.
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And then as you say, these sort of serve
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and return or prototype
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conversations early on, a super important
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because that's how the child learns
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both at somebody's will respond to them.
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So they learn to what we call initiate,
say, start
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a conversation that might be for an infant
just looking at you
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or pointing at something
as they get a bit older, and as they learn
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that you label that thing, they learn
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they can get information from you.
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They learn
that you are going to support them.
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You can start forming those bonds.
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And so if we want to understand
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that process, we really need to measure
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what's happening in the brain
in those spaces.
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And what does your research show
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that kind of gets in the way of that bond
being created.
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Or are there any. Yeah.
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Things that you've seen that
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have been particularly different
to what you're anticipating.
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So I think, I mean, the biggest challenge
for parents often is stress.
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It's, you know, limited resources,
not having time,
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not having capacity
to just sit and play with their baby,
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not having the
the mental space to do that.
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So, you know, it's super difficult
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in early infancy and particularly
if you don't have a lot of social support
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and you're working and you haven't
got time to sit down with baby.
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And so those sorts of things
can really challenge
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parents in just finding the time
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and the space to sit
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with their baby
and really follow their attention
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and figure out what it is
that their baby's interested in.
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I think that that's probably
what has the biggest impact on
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on parents and their children.
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And your research often focuses
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on families
with a history of neurodivergent,
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and your study, your basic
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study followed infants with,
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older autistic siblings,
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children who have about a 20% chance
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of autism themselves, compared to 2%
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in the general population.
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What has that research taught us
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about how autism emerges?
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Yeah, so we've been running that program
for a long time now.
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So that is about 20 years.
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And so over that time, we've
studied babies
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who initially, as you said,
had an older sibling who's autistic.
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Now, increasingly
we have parents of autistic
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and we also study ADHD.
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So families will have all sorts
of different types
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of neurodivergent in their family.
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And so it's been incredibly rich
00:09:29:07 - 00:09:30:21
watching these babies grow up
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and looking at how they do over time
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and how different styles of parenting
have,
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a really supportive in that context.
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And so we measure brain development,
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we measure behavior
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with a couple of main goals.
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Firstly, to look for early signs.
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So how can we figure out earlier
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which children might need better support.
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Because we know for autistic
children, often families
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have gone on a massively long
diagnostic journey
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trying to figure out what it is
that the child needs, trying
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to get somebody to listen
and trying to get the support they need.
00:10:01:11 - 00:10:03:18
Even for our families,
where they've often got an older
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autistic child already,
is still a challenge with the younger.
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So we're trying to figure out
better ways of,
00:10:08:19 - 00:10:11:08
identifying
what might be a challenge early on.
00:10:11:08 - 00:10:12:22
And supporting families with that,
00:10:13:10 - 00:10:15:09
and then figuring out what information
00:10:15:09 - 00:10:18:03
or what advice can we give to parents
if they do notice
00:10:18:03 - 00:10:20:14
something that's different,
and what is it that they can do?
00:10:20:14 - 00:10:23:02
Or what should society,
as you said at the beginning, be doing,
00:10:23:10 - 00:10:24:23
to support these families?
00:10:25:14 - 00:10:27:14
And so we've learned
tons of things from this.
00:10:27:15 - 00:10:29:06
I think one of the big things
00:10:29:06 - 00:10:30:24
has been that autism
00:10:30:24 - 00:10:33:13
sort of often
associated with social differences.
00:10:33:21 - 00:10:35:13
And of course,
there are social differences.
00:10:35:22 - 00:10:37:08
But what we see very early on
00:10:37:08 - 00:10:39:00
is the sensory differences.
00:10:39:00 - 00:10:41:18
And that's something
that autistic people talk about a lot.
00:10:41:18 - 00:10:44:02
The influence
their life influence wellbeing.
00:10:44:02 - 00:10:46:07
And we see those right from infancy.
00:10:46:17 - 00:10:49:05
And we think that's super important,
because that might be something
00:10:49:05 - 00:10:51:21
that does suggest ways
in which we can change the environment
00:10:51:21 - 00:10:54:21
around children
to support their their wellbeing,
00:10:54:21 - 00:10:56:15
regardless of whether they have an autism
00:10:56:15 - 00:10:58:02
diagnosis later or not.
00:10:58:17 - 00:11:00:03
So I think that's been
one of the big things
00:11:00:03 - 00:11:01:16
that's changed over time.
00:11:01:17 - 00:11:02:19
Interesting.
00:11:02:19 - 00:11:04:01
What's,
00:11:04:01 - 00:11:05:00
you know, what's been
00:11:05:00 - 00:11:07:15
the most kind of interesting
finding that you found that sort of
00:11:07:15 - 00:11:09:18
was that different
to what you were expecting?
00:11:10:08 - 00:11:12:14
So I think firstly,
the sensory differences,
00:11:12:14 - 00:11:14:03
because I think
when everybody started doing
00:11:14:03 - 00:11:17:02
this research, we we thought that
what we would see is that babies
00:11:17:02 - 00:11:19:18
would struggle with social interaction
right from the beginning.
00:11:20:18 - 00:11:22:01
But actually we don't see that.
00:11:22:01 - 00:11:24:10
So what we see is that
babies are interacting.
00:11:24:10 - 00:11:26:10
So looking at their parents,
minding at their parent,
00:11:27:03 - 00:11:29:04
just like every other baby very early on.
00:11:29:09 - 00:11:31:02
But then over developmental time,
00:11:31:02 - 00:11:32:22
they get more interested in other things.
00:11:33:05 - 00:11:34:14
While they struggle to kind of keep up
00:11:34:14 - 00:11:36:02
with those core social skills.
00:11:36:21 - 00:11:39:10
But what we do see
very early is the sensory differences.
00:11:39:10 - 00:11:42:13
So I think that was the first thing
that that really shifted the way
00:11:42:13 - 00:11:44:13
that we see
some of these early developmental
00:11:44:13 - 00:11:46:01
director is an autism.
00:11:46:06 - 00:11:47:07
And then the second thing
00:11:47:07 - 00:11:49:00
is, is what you mentioned
in the beginning that
00:11:49:16 - 00:11:52:01
actually children's
trajectories are really variable.
00:11:52:01 - 00:11:54:16
So we see some children
even in our study where
00:11:55:02 - 00:11:57:20
at three
they don't meet criteria for autism.
00:11:57:20 - 00:11:59:07
They might have no challenges at all.
00:11:59:07 - 00:12:01:08
And then by seven, eight, nine they do.
00:12:01:23 - 00:12:03:17
And again that sort of challenges view
00:12:03:17 - 00:12:05:18
that autism is kind of always there early.
00:12:05:18 - 00:12:07:07
And you know, maybe we miss it but
00:12:07:07 - 00:12:08:19
but it was always there.
00:12:08:22 - 00:12:11:10
I think what we see
is that for some children,
00:12:11:23 - 00:12:13:06
you know, you can just
00:12:13:06 - 00:12:15:05
it depends
how you define autism where it is. But
00:12:16:14 - 00:12:17:12
but for some children, they
00:12:17:12 - 00:12:19:03
don't clearly have challenges
00:12:19:03 - 00:12:20:23
until they really get
to kind of mid childhood.
00:12:21:07 - 00:12:23:06
And so we're trying to think about
whether or not
00:12:23:16 - 00:12:25:15
there might be different paths to autism.
00:12:25:15 - 00:12:28:02
And what we actually see is
there might be some brain differences
00:12:28:02 - 00:12:30:15
in those kids
who meet criteria early versus later.
00:12:31:05 - 00:12:32:17
And there's a lot of talk about,
00:12:33:04 - 00:12:35:07
early identification versus
00:12:35:07 - 00:12:38:22
a difference between early identification
and early labeling.
00:12:39:05 - 00:12:40:12
How do you help, sort of help
00:12:40:12 - 00:12:43:08
sort of mythbuster
that or differentiate there?
00:12:43:23 - 00:12:45:22
Yeah, I think that's
a super challenging question.
00:12:45:22 - 00:12:48:01
And it's it's an individual decision
00:12:48:01 - 00:12:50:23
for families,
I think is is one of the key things.
00:12:50:23 - 00:12:53:02
So a lot of our families
will make different decisions about
00:12:53:02 - 00:12:55:17
whether they want to pursue a diagnosis
for the younger child.
00:12:56:03 - 00:12:57:10
So some of them will say, you know,
00:12:57:10 - 00:13:00:03
we know
autism is a whole is neurodivergent.
00:13:00:03 - 00:13:01:22
We don't we're happy to wait
00:13:01:22 - 00:13:03:11
until my child's older
00:13:03:11 - 00:13:05:06
and they can decide
if they want the label or not.
00:13:05:18 - 00:13:08:12
Other families
need support for their child and need help
00:13:08:12 - 00:13:11:14
and need, statements or need,
you know, extra resources.
00:13:11:14 - 00:13:15:21
And so they need that diagnostic, system
in order to provide that.
00:13:16:03 - 00:13:18:00
So I think a lot of it comes down to,
00:13:18:10 - 00:13:19:23
to making an individual decision
00:13:19:23 - 00:13:22:02
about what your child's needs are.
00:13:22:02 - 00:13:24:08
And then deciding
whether you need a diagnosis
00:13:24:08 - 00:13:26:07
for your child to to have those needs met.
00:13:26:14 - 00:13:28:02
I mean, ideally, we get to a place
00:13:28:02 - 00:13:30:22
where nobody needs a diagnosis to have
their needs met.
00:13:30:22 - 00:13:32:23
You know, the services are provided
based on need
00:13:32:23 - 00:13:34:23
rather than a categorical label.
00:13:35:04 - 00:13:36:06
Yeah.
00:13:36:06 - 00:13:37:00
We work a lot
00:13:37:00 - 00:13:39:17
with early as professionals, practitioners
00:13:39:17 - 00:13:41:07
in the baby's own locations
00:13:41:07 - 00:13:43:20
and people that work with young children
00:13:43:20 - 00:13:45:09
in a variety of different settings,
00:13:45:18 - 00:13:47:06
leading play sessions.
00:13:47:23 - 00:13:49:11
Many of those people
00:13:49:22 - 00:13:51:21
don't always feel qualified to,
00:13:52:05 - 00:13:53:19
you know, support a child until there's
00:13:53:19 - 00:13:55:11
that formal diagnosis.
00:13:55:21 - 00:13:59:01
But based on that early research
that you've done and the sort of,
00:14:00:03 - 00:14:01:20
the, the brain states,
00:14:02:10 - 00:14:05:15
that we know exist and change,
what are the most effective
00:14:05:15 - 00:14:07:06
things that you see great
00:14:07:11 - 00:14:09:09
kind of nursery leaders or play,
00:14:10:11 - 00:14:12:19
professionals
doing to help support a child
00:14:12:19 - 00:14:15:06
that might be showing
signs of developmental difference.
00:14:15:18 - 00:14:17:01
So I think the biggest thing
00:14:17:01 - 00:14:19:22
is following the individual child's lead.
00:14:20:01 - 00:14:22:08
So one of the key
sort of active ingredients
00:14:22:08 - 00:14:24:12
in a lot of the early intervention
programs
00:14:24:12 - 00:14:26:12
that have shown to be effective
in some ways
00:14:26:12 - 00:14:28:18
is that they're helping parents
00:14:28:18 - 00:14:31:05
or nursery leaders
or people who work with a child
00:14:31:11 - 00:14:34:12
follow their IT,
follow the direction of attention,
00:14:34:12 - 00:14:36:23
and then use that to sort of
scaffold them into,
00:14:37:10 - 00:14:38:18
into a conversation
00:14:38:18 - 00:14:40:07
with you or an interaction with you.
00:14:41:14 - 00:14:43:09
I think, you know, one of the old ways
00:14:43:09 - 00:14:46:05
of thinking about autism was that
it's all about trying to sort of force
00:14:46:05 - 00:14:48:24
the child in inverted commas, down
a sort of normal
00:14:48:24 - 00:14:51:22
path of having a particular interest
or having to,
00:14:51:23 - 00:14:53:10
you know, in interact
00:14:53:10 - 00:14:55:12
with somebody
the same way every other child does.
00:14:55:22 - 00:14:57:20
But I think as a society,
we're getting a lot better
00:14:57:20 - 00:14:59:07
at recognizing that actually,
00:14:59:19 - 00:15:02:03
completely it's
completely signs of individual differences
00:15:02:03 - 00:15:04:05
in the way that you interact or the style,
00:15:05:12 - 00:15:07:08
and providing a child with
00:15:07:20 - 00:15:10:21
interactions that are in the space
that they're comfortable in.
00:15:10:21 - 00:15:13:16
Often they will
then want to to play with you.
00:15:13:16 - 00:15:15:19
So it's very similar
to the person conversations
00:15:15:19 - 00:15:17:07
you were talking about in the beginning.
00:15:17:13 - 00:15:19:19
What we see with very young babies
is that, you know,
00:15:19:20 - 00:15:22:19
baby's holding a toy
and mom pays attention to that toy.
00:15:22:19 - 00:15:25:14
Then the baby will often learn the word
for the toy more readily
00:15:25:14 - 00:15:27:20
than if mom tries
to pull their attention to something else.
00:15:28:05 - 00:15:30:11
And it's the same with children
with individual differences.
00:15:30:11 - 00:15:32:13
If they are particularly interested
in a spinning top,
00:15:32:13 - 00:15:34:07
then you talk about the top
and that's fine.
00:15:34:15 - 00:15:36:20
So I think sort of
following the child's lead and
00:15:37:02 - 00:15:40:03
and not thinking
that you have to necessarily do anything
00:15:40:03 - 00:15:42:00
particularly different
for an autistic child
00:15:42:00 - 00:15:43:22
than than a typically developing child.
00:15:43:23 - 00:15:45:12
You know, every child's different
and following
00:15:45:12 - 00:15:46:24
their lead can really help.
00:15:47:09 - 00:15:48:08
So you've spent years
00:15:48:08 - 00:15:49:20
building the evidence base.
00:15:50:06 - 00:15:51:02
Let's talk about what
00:15:51:02 - 00:15:53:04
policymakers should do with that evidence.
00:15:53:04 - 00:15:55:05
So if you were sitting here
with the Chancellor,
00:15:55:12 - 00:15:57:21
how would you use your data to argue?
00:15:57:21 - 00:15:59:19
The investing in early support
00:15:59:23 - 00:16:02:16
before a diagnosis is a critical
00:16:02:16 - 00:16:04:23
economic necessity
rather than a nice to have.
00:16:05:11 - 00:16:06:12
So I think, firstly,
00:16:06:12 - 00:16:08:07
we know that we can identify
00:16:08:07 - 00:16:11:16
a lot of children who have additional
needs a long time
00:16:11:16 - 00:16:14:09
before they're going to get a diagnosis
within the system.
00:16:14:15 - 00:16:16:16
So we know that the needs there
a long time
00:16:16:16 - 00:16:18:22
before anything's been provided right now.
00:16:19:09 - 00:16:21:12
And we also know that children
00:16:21:12 - 00:16:24:09
who've been in early intervention program
so that there's a few
00:16:24:09 - 00:16:26:11
high quality studies that do show evidence
00:16:26:11 - 00:16:28:08
that they are beneficial to children.
00:16:28:14 - 00:16:30:01
And some of these apparent mediated
00:16:30:01 - 00:16:31:14
interventions are not necessarily
00:16:31:14 - 00:16:33:02
super high cost.
00:16:33:07 - 00:16:34:11
So we know that we can make
00:16:34:11 - 00:16:35:24
a difference to some of these things.
00:16:37:02 - 00:16:38:09
And we also know that
00:16:38:09 - 00:16:39:19
the process itself
00:16:39:19 - 00:16:41:14
of going through the diagnostic journey
00:16:41:14 - 00:16:44:17
for families is often incredibly stressful
and incredibly time consuming
00:16:44:17 - 00:16:46:08
in that time and energy could be spent
00:16:46:08 - 00:16:48:18
in investing in the child in other ways.
00:16:48:23 - 00:16:50:07
So I think we know that
00:16:50:07 - 00:16:52:05
we can identify things early.
00:16:52:05 - 00:16:54:03
We know that we can do something
to support
00:16:54:03 - 00:16:55:23
parents in that, space.
00:16:56:03 - 00:16:57:15
And we also know that,
00:16:57:18 - 00:17:00:16
you know, when a child into school,
if they're not showing their school
00:17:00:16 - 00:17:03:22
readiness skills,
and that has a huge ongoing impact
00:17:03:22 - 00:17:05:16
on their ability to thrive in school,
00:17:05:16 - 00:17:08:07
their education
and the costs start to mount, then
00:17:08:07 - 00:17:11:00
in terms of what you're
having to put in place for them.
00:17:11:00 - 00:17:13:20
So we think that the more
that you can do things to support
00:17:13:20 - 00:17:16:14
the child in that window
before they enter formal education,
00:17:16:14 - 00:17:18:16
then the cost going forward
should be cheaper.
00:17:19:06 - 00:17:22:19
And what are the most effective ways
that you're seeing that happening
00:17:22:19 - 00:17:24:08
organically across the country,
00:17:24:08 - 00:17:27:04
whether there's
some great pockets of intervention,
00:17:27:04 - 00:17:29:22
we often read about how parents
are struggling with the system,
00:17:29:22 - 00:17:32:13
but is there anywhere in particular
I think that's doing it?
00:17:32:13 - 00:17:33:10
Well at the moment.
00:17:34:14 - 00:17:35:10
So there is some places
00:17:35:10 - 00:17:38:01
where they're trialing,
providing support on
00:17:38:01 - 00:17:39:16
the basis of a child's needs
00:17:39:16 - 00:17:41:10
rather than diagnosis.
00:17:41:10 - 00:17:42:24
And they're still underway at the moment.
00:17:43:09 - 00:17:45:24
But that's an important process
of figuring out whether or not that does
00:17:45:24 - 00:17:47:17
provide better, long
00:17:47:17 - 00:17:49:05
term outcomes for children.
00:17:49:16 - 00:17:52:03
I think there's a lot of, pockets
00:17:52:03 - 00:17:55:13
of really good practice in terms
of just providing support for parents
00:17:55:14 - 00:17:57:01
to parents in the early years,
00:17:57:01 - 00:17:58:23
it places where parents
00:17:58:23 - 00:18:00:11
can connect with each other,
00:18:00:17 - 00:18:01:17
can talk to each other.
00:18:01:17 - 00:18:03:05
Parents often find
00:18:03:08 - 00:18:06:08
a lot of really valuable insight
from other parents.
00:18:06:08 - 00:18:08:22
And actually that's important in kids,
the neurodivergent
00:18:08:24 - 00:18:10:11
as well as any other child.
00:18:10:11 - 00:18:12:13
So I think there's some evidence of that.
00:18:12:13 - 00:18:14:19
But I would say at the moment
we don't have
00:18:14:19 - 00:18:17:14
very good models
in the UK of where this is working.
00:18:17:14 - 00:18:18:14
Well, yeah.
00:18:18:14 - 00:18:20:01
And that's certainly what
we're trying to do.
00:18:20:01 - 00:18:23:12
And bring all parents together
in one of our locations in
00:18:23:12 - 00:18:26:10
our hubs is a kind of safe space for moms,
00:18:26:10 - 00:18:29:07
dads, carers to see other children,
00:18:29:07 - 00:18:30:19
how they're developing,
00:18:30:21 - 00:18:32:04
ask questions, you know,
00:18:32:04 - 00:18:33:17
in a safe environment.
00:18:34:01 - 00:18:35:14
And also speak to our teams,
00:18:35:14 - 00:18:38:10
you know, and people
that are early as professionals
00:18:38:10 - 00:18:40:13
that can help signpost two things
00:18:40:13 - 00:18:42:07
know via Portage or other
00:18:43:05 - 00:18:44:01
and departments
00:18:44:01 - 00:18:46:10
that can help with kind of early support
00:18:46:24 - 00:18:48:13
when challenges have been identified.
00:18:49:21 - 00:18:50:15
I guess the other
00:18:50:15 - 00:18:53:13
thing is, you know,
you spoke briefly about,
00:18:53:23 - 00:18:55:15
parents who are potentially not
00:18:55:15 - 00:18:57:03
neurodivergent themselves.
00:18:57:09 - 00:19:00:06
How does their way of processing the world
00:19:00:06 - 00:19:01:20
impact their children,
00:19:01:20 - 00:19:03:07
the way they work with their children?
00:19:03:11 - 00:19:03:17
Yeah.
00:19:03:17 - 00:19:05:06
So we've been doing
some work on that recently
00:19:05:06 - 00:19:06:23
and actually what we've been looking at
00:19:06:23 - 00:19:10:02
is this idea that the similarity
between a parent and child
00:19:10:02 - 00:19:13:04
might make a big difference,
because on a sort of simple level,
00:19:13:04 - 00:19:16:08
if you're a parent and you have sensory
differences and you don't like loud noises
00:19:16:08 - 00:19:18:23
and your child doesn't either,
then you probably naturally provide
00:19:18:23 - 00:19:21:09
a sensory environment
that's well-suited to your baby.
00:19:22:02 - 00:19:23:21
And so we have been finding that parents
00:19:24:12 - 00:19:26:12
who have a similar neuro
type to their child.
00:19:26:12 - 00:19:28:07
So whether they're both autistic or both,
00:19:28:17 - 00:19:29:23
neurotypical,
00:19:29:23 - 00:19:32:14
the child tends to have more positive
well-being at three.
00:19:32:16 - 00:19:35:11
So that suggests that
that neurodivergent parents often
00:19:35:11 - 00:19:37:08
are just naturally providing
an environment
00:19:37:08 - 00:19:40:09
that is, beneficial
for their neurodivergent child.
00:19:40:09 - 00:19:43:11
And we can learn a lot from parents
who might share a near
00:19:43:11 - 00:19:46:11
a site with their child in terms
of how we can provide better environments
00:19:46:11 - 00:19:47:23
for children in general.
00:19:47:23 - 00:19:49:11
And I think that probably is
00:19:49:23 - 00:19:52:02
connected a lot
to this sort of sensory area
00:19:52:02 - 00:19:53:19
that that I think sensory
00:19:53:19 - 00:19:55:17
differences can make the environment
00:19:55:17 - 00:19:58:15
either really welcoming
or really challenging for children.
00:19:58:15 - 00:20:01:08
And if a parent naturally shares
that they can naturally create
00:20:01:08 - 00:20:03:00
a space for the child, then
00:20:03:00 - 00:20:04:13
feel safer to explore.
00:20:04:18 - 00:20:07:12
So and to make it a very practical,
00:20:08:01 - 00:20:09:21
if a parent is noticing something,
00:20:09:21 - 00:20:12:10
maybe their 12 month old
isn't looking at them
00:20:12:18 - 00:20:15:09
as much,
or their 18 month old isn't pointing
00:20:15:09 - 00:20:16:21
or sharing attention.
00:20:16:22 - 00:20:18:14
When should they seek support?
00:20:18:14 - 00:20:20:01
Or who should they speak to?
00:20:20:11 - 00:20:21:17
And the best person to speak to
00:20:21:17 - 00:20:23:04
is often the health visitor,
00:20:23:14 - 00:20:26:19
because they are connected
into local services
00:20:26:19 - 00:20:28:22
and they can also provide
00:20:28:22 - 00:20:32:00
some and sort of external perspective
on whether or not
00:20:32:00 - 00:20:33:12
they feel like that's something that,
00:20:33:15 - 00:20:35:02
that they're concerned about.
00:20:35:05 - 00:20:37:23
I would say the challenge often
for parents is that often
00:20:37:23 - 00:20:39:11
they get told to just wait and see,
00:20:39:16 - 00:20:41:16
and sometimes
that is the right thing to do.
00:20:41:16 - 00:20:43:24
But it's really hard as a parent
because you don't often
00:20:43:24 - 00:20:47:00
know what it is you're waiting to see
or what you can do in the interim.
00:20:48:03 - 00:20:49:11
What we often find
00:20:49:11 - 00:20:52:10
in a lot of our data and other studies
is that it's that change
00:20:52:10 - 00:20:53:22
over time that tells you more
00:20:53:22 - 00:20:55:10
than kind of a snapshot.
00:20:55:11 - 00:20:58:01
So particularly
if your child really clearly loses
00:20:58:01 - 00:21:01:02
skills already because he was pointing
and then stopped over
00:21:01:02 - 00:21:02:23
an extended period in a weeks,
00:21:02:23 - 00:21:04:11
rather than just they have a bad day.
00:21:04:18 - 00:21:06:10
Those sorts of things are the things that,
00:21:06:24 - 00:21:09:21
offer more clearly signal, difficulties.
00:21:09:21 - 00:21:11:23
And so then the health visitor or the GP,
00:21:11:24 - 00:21:13:12
the best people to speak to.
00:21:14:04 - 00:21:15:24
And there are some resources online.
00:21:17:04 - 00:21:18:16
The there is some consortium
00:21:18:16 - 00:21:20:08
of the BBC Research Consortium,
00:21:20:08 - 00:21:22:14
which is a group of researchers
that work with BBC.
00:21:23:05 - 00:21:25:00
We have some infographics
and there's a website
00:21:25:00 - 00:21:26:13
with some useful information too.
00:21:26:14 - 00:21:29:01
So there are kind of videos
and things like that where parents
00:21:29:01 - 00:21:30:24
can kind of watch some videos of babies
00:21:30:24 - 00:21:32:13
and try to match it to that child,
00:21:32:13 - 00:21:34:18
because sometimes it's hard
if you don't have a comparison.
00:21:35:01 - 00:21:36:21
And we can link to some of these resources
00:21:36:21 - 00:21:38:09
in the notes.
00:21:38:20 - 00:21:40:08
For this podcast.
00:21:40:15 - 00:21:42:03
I'm also really interested in the work
00:21:42:03 - 00:21:44:19
that you're doing with Brain Tools
and how you're adopting
00:21:44:22 - 00:21:47:12
of neuroscience methods for rural India.
00:21:47:23 - 00:21:49:11
And The Gambia.
00:21:49:11 - 00:21:51:12
How do you sort of, as you're working
00:21:51:12 - 00:21:53:00
across these different contexts,
00:21:53:08 - 00:21:54:18
what patterns or insights
00:21:54:18 - 00:21:56:23
do you notice or comparing the findings
00:21:56:23 - 00:22:00:00
from the global South compared to Europe?
00:22:00:14 - 00:22:01:18
Yeah, it's really interesting.
00:22:01:18 - 00:22:03:06
I think the first thing I would say
00:22:03:06 - 00:22:04:18
is that work is still so early
00:22:04:18 - 00:22:06:15
stages across the field in general.
00:22:07:10 - 00:22:08:19
At the moment we really don't know
00:22:08:19 - 00:22:10:13
what the big differences are going to be.
00:22:10:13 - 00:22:12:15
And a lot of the time
what we see is similarities.
00:22:12:15 - 00:22:14:14
So, you know, similar patterns of brain
00:22:14:14 - 00:22:16:02
development,
00:22:16:02 - 00:22:17:24
similar patterns of language development.
00:22:18:06 - 00:22:19:17
Despite these giant differences
00:22:19:17 - 00:22:22:02
in cultural practices
and parenting practices.
00:22:22:10 - 00:22:25:10
So I think that kind of work is
is starting to challenge
00:22:25:10 - 00:22:27:01
some of our assumptions about what
00:22:27:02 - 00:22:28:23
matters in early child development.
00:22:29:18 - 00:22:31:05
So there's some work on early motor
00:22:31:05 - 00:22:33:00
development or early language development
00:22:33:00 - 00:22:35:01
where, you know, people have assumed
00:22:35:01 - 00:22:37:08
that what you need for early language
development is a
00:22:37:08 - 00:22:38:22
particular style of speech,
00:22:38:22 - 00:22:40:15
but actually some cultures don't use that.
00:22:40:15 - 00:22:42:08
And their children's language
development is fine.
00:22:42:15 - 00:22:44:18
So it's teaching us a lot
about what assumptions
00:22:44:18 - 00:22:47:14
we're making, about what might matter
and what might not.
00:22:47:14 - 00:22:49:05
And then how can we think about the data
00:22:49:05 - 00:22:50:17
that we're generating?
00:22:51:01 - 00:22:53:02
But we're also trying
to look at some of the risk
00:22:53:02 - 00:22:55:08
factors children in those contexts
might experience
00:22:55:20 - 00:22:58:12
more than in the UK,
although we still experience them here.
00:22:58:12 - 00:23:01:10
So undernutrition and maternal infection
and so on.
00:23:02:06 - 00:23:03:08
So we're trying to understand you
00:23:03:08 - 00:23:05:04
how that might influence
early brain development.
00:23:05:04 - 00:23:07:05
And then what's the role
of the environment in that?
00:23:07:09 - 00:23:09:06
That may have a huge impact
00:23:09:06 - 00:23:11:01
on our evidence base across the world.
00:23:11:01 - 00:23:13:05
So yeah, really exciting study.
00:23:14:10 - 00:23:15:12
I guess
00:23:15:12 - 00:23:16:07
one more question
00:23:16:07 - 00:23:17:22
I've got is if you've got a parent
00:23:17:22 - 00:23:20:15
listening
that's feeling worried or uncertain
00:23:20:15 - 00:23:22:02
about their child's development,
00:23:22:08 - 00:23:23:20
what would you most want them to hear?
00:23:24:12 - 00:23:25:11
So I think firstly,
00:23:25:11 - 00:23:28:09
every parent worries about their child
development child's development.
00:23:28:09 - 00:23:30:18
So I think the first thing is to try
00:23:30:18 - 00:23:32:08
to put it in perspective
00:23:32:08 - 00:23:35:07
of the fact that, like everybody worries
sometimes and that's okay.
00:23:35:07 - 00:23:37:20
But if you find that you're worrying
00:23:38:07 - 00:23:40:11
more often than other parents are,
or you feel like
00:23:40:11 - 00:23:44:04
something is really different
to other children, or even if you're
00:23:44:04 - 00:23:46:02
just concerned about a particular behavior
00:23:46:02 - 00:23:48:00
is always a good idea to talk to people.
00:23:48:00 - 00:23:50:17
Other parents are a good place to start,
because often
00:23:50:24 - 00:23:53:10
you'll find that every other parent
also experiences that.
00:23:53:17 - 00:23:56:05
But if you don't, or you feel like it's
something that,
00:23:56:17 - 00:23:59:04
that you know
you're not hearing from other people, then
00:23:59:04 - 00:24:01:20
I would always talk to the health visitor
towards the GP,
00:24:02:04 - 00:24:03:21
and there's lots of things that we can do.
00:24:03:21 - 00:24:06:16
I think that's the other big message,
that it's not something
00:24:06:16 - 00:24:08:04
that you have to deal with on your own.
00:24:08:04 - 00:24:09:19
There's lots of people around you.
00:24:10:02 - 00:24:12:00
There should be lots of support
in the community.
00:24:12:21 - 00:24:15:02
And there's lots of ways
in which we can support
00:24:15:02 - 00:24:17:07
children's development
over time that make a big difference.
00:24:17:07 - 00:24:20:15
So it's not something that determines
your child's outcome.
00:24:20:15 - 00:24:22:05
It's it's just a sign that we might need
00:24:22:05 - 00:24:23:18
to do something slightly different.
00:24:23:20 - 00:24:25:11
So, Emily, you've also done some research
00:24:25:11 - 00:24:28:08
around sleep
and how sleep patterns may help you
00:24:28:08 - 00:24:30:12
with identification of autism
00:24:30:12 - 00:24:32:10
and other neurodivergent sets.
00:24:32:11 - 00:24:34:06
Can you explain a little bit
more about that?
00:24:34:14 - 00:24:36:24
Yes, we know that sleep is often
one of the biggest challenges
00:24:36:24 - 00:24:39:13
for kids, for autistic kids,
and for their families.
00:24:39:13 - 00:24:41:04
And so we were interested
00:24:41:04 - 00:24:43:02
in how early that starts, because,
00:24:43:05 - 00:24:45:00
you know, all parents of young babies
00:24:45:00 - 00:24:46:12
know that sleep is a problem.
00:24:46:20 - 00:24:48:21
But what we tend to see in development
is that over
00:24:48:21 - 00:24:50:10
the first year, most
00:24:50:10 - 00:24:52:00
babies will kind of start to consolidate.
00:24:52:01 - 00:24:55:13
They'll start to sleep, if not through
the night, kind of in long chunks.
00:24:56:14 - 00:24:57:08
But we heard from
00:24:57:08 - 00:25:00:01
some of our families that that wasn't
necessarily happening for their babies.
00:25:00:01 - 00:25:01:21
So in our prospective study
00:25:01:21 - 00:25:03:12
where we follow babies over time,
00:25:03:20 - 00:25:05:06
we looked at sleep from,
00:25:05:06 - 00:25:07:18
parent report, and now
we're using some other measures too.
00:25:07:24 - 00:25:11:16
But what we find is that really by ten
and certainly by 14 months,
00:25:11:16 - 00:25:14:13
we see big differences in sleep, in babies
who are going to be diagnosed
00:25:14:13 - 00:25:16:16
with autism at 3 a.m. or later.
00:25:16:23 - 00:25:19:04
So babies are sleeping about an hour less
a night.
00:25:19:17 - 00:25:21:23
And that's huge at 14 months for the baby
00:25:21:23 - 00:25:23:10
and for their parents.
00:25:23:10 - 00:25:25:23
So what we're trying to understand
now is how that might be impacting
00:25:25:23 - 00:25:28:12
their learning and memory during the day,
because we know that
00:25:28:24 - 00:25:31:00
sleep
super important for learning and memory.
00:25:31:11 - 00:25:32:16
And it's also important
00:25:32:16 - 00:25:34:23
in terms of the broader family system.
00:25:34:23 - 00:25:36:14
So how does that impact on parents
00:25:36:14 - 00:25:38:01
and their resources during the day?
00:25:38:11 - 00:25:39:14
And we also know that sleep
00:25:39:14 - 00:25:41:07
is amenable to interventions.
00:25:41:07 - 00:25:43:04
There are ways of supporting babies early.
00:25:43:05 - 00:25:45:06
There's lots of
different options out there.
00:25:46:11 - 00:25:48:05
And so we're trying to understand that.
00:25:48:05 - 00:25:51:08
So at the moment we're doing a study
of looking at baby sleep and parents
00:25:51:09 - 00:25:54:09
sleep, and then learning during the day.
00:25:54:09 - 00:25:56:18
So brain activity where, babies are awake
00:25:57:09 - 00:25:59:23
to try to understand the links,
because we have some early evidence
00:25:59:23 - 00:26:01:17
that suggests that babies who sleep
00:26:01:17 - 00:26:04:11
poorly also have, less attention.
00:26:04:11 - 00:26:06:10
So brain measures of attention
during the day
00:26:06:10 - 00:26:08:23
when they're watching videos
or playing with somebody.
00:26:08:23 - 00:26:10:17
So we want to try and understand
what impact
00:26:10:17 - 00:26:12:09
that might have,
because that might be another thing
00:26:12:09 - 00:26:15:02
that we could think about them
putting some intervention in place for.
00:26:15:08 - 00:26:17:22
Really fascinating shows
how everything is interlinked
00:26:17:22 - 00:26:19:09
and has an impact.
00:26:19:17 - 00:26:21:15
And what about the difference
between boys and girls
00:26:21:15 - 00:26:23:16
and this sort of studies
that you've been running that.
00:26:23:23 - 00:26:26:13
So we see higher rates of autism in boys.
00:26:26:22 - 00:26:28:20
Like,
like we see in the general population.
00:26:28:20 - 00:26:32:10
So, there's a lot of questions over
whether we're just missing
00:26:32:10 - 00:26:33:23
autism and girls,
00:26:33:24 - 00:26:35:16
or whether there's a sort of true,
00:26:36:03 - 00:26:39:03
reduced rate
and in our prospective studies,
00:26:39:03 - 00:26:42:08
because we see babies regularly
and we assess every child for autism,
00:26:42:08 - 00:26:44:17
even when we do that, we see more autism
00:26:44:17 - 00:26:46:11
in our boys at three.
00:26:46:22 - 00:26:49:22
But when we for all children
into mid childhood,
00:26:49:22 - 00:26:52:03
we start seeing more girls
meeting criteria.
00:26:52:03 - 00:26:55:03
So we think one of the big differences
is that autism
00:26:55:03 - 00:26:56:24
in girls isn't recognized till later,
00:26:56:24 - 00:26:58:17
or might not emerge till later.
00:26:59:21 - 00:27:01:11
So we see big differences in that
00:27:01:11 - 00:27:04:08
and we see some differences in language
development early on.
00:27:04:08 - 00:27:05:22
So girls on average
00:27:05:22 - 00:27:07:11
tend to be a little bit faster
00:27:07:11 - 00:27:08:24
in their language development.
00:27:09:16 - 00:27:10:17
And then the other thing we see
00:27:10:17 - 00:27:12:09
is that boys often show
00:27:12:09 - 00:27:14:17
kind of greater activity levels early on.
00:27:14:17 - 00:27:16:05
And some of these traits,
00:27:16:13 - 00:27:18:06
but generally in very early
00:27:18:06 - 00:27:19:20
infancy, when we look at the brain,
00:27:19:20 - 00:27:21:21
there's very few differences
between boys and girls.
00:27:21:21 - 00:27:23:21
So one of the things we're interested in
understanding
00:27:23:21 - 00:27:26:15
is why do we not see very much
in early brain development,
00:27:26:15 - 00:27:28:19
but then we start seeing these differences
in behavior.
00:27:29:15 - 00:27:30:10
Fascinating.
00:27:30:10 - 00:27:31:23
Yeah.
00:27:32:07 - 00:27:33:18
We hear a lot about masking,
00:27:33:18 - 00:27:35:06
and it's not entirely clear
00:27:35:06 - 00:27:37:12
as to when that happens and why.
00:27:38:00 - 00:27:40:02
What is your evidence
showing you about about that.
00:27:40:13 - 00:27:41:01
Yeah, sure.
00:27:41:01 - 00:27:42:18
Masking is a super important topic.
00:27:42:18 - 00:27:44:05
And so this is the idea
00:27:44:05 - 00:27:47:02
that, often girls but also boys to,
00:27:48:12 - 00:27:50:07
able to hide their autistic traits
00:27:50:07 - 00:27:52:07
or feel that they have to hide
their autistic traits
00:27:52:07 - 00:27:54:24
in order to, to, to perform
00:27:54:24 - 00:27:56:24
in inverted commas at school
or in the workplace.
00:27:57:21 - 00:27:59:17
And it's one of the real challenges
00:27:59:17 - 00:28:01:08
to thinking about intervention
00:28:01:08 - 00:28:02:23
or support for autistic children,
00:28:02:23 - 00:28:04:15
because we really don't want to be,
00:28:05:18 - 00:28:06:10
teaching them
00:28:06:10 - 00:28:08:20
that they have to hide themselves
in order to fit in.
00:28:09:01 - 00:28:10:14
But at the same time,
00:28:11:19 - 00:28:13:24
for younger children
and for children at school, often
00:28:13:24 - 00:28:15:22
they do have this really strong drive
to fit in
00:28:15:22 - 00:28:17:10
with the children around them.
00:28:17:22 - 00:28:19:01
And there's been some research
00:28:19:01 - 00:28:21:21
to link masking or,
you know, trying to fit in with
00:28:22:02 - 00:28:23:12
mental health problems in autism,
00:28:23:12 - 00:28:24:24
particularly in autistic women.
00:28:25:05 - 00:28:26:07
So we're really interested in that.
00:28:26:07 - 00:28:28:06
And how early emerges, because we know
00:28:28:16 - 00:28:31:00
even two and three year
olds will try to please you.
00:28:32:12 - 00:28:33:17
And so trying to work
00:28:33:17 - 00:28:36:13
out, even at that age,
what masking might look like,
00:28:36:13 - 00:28:38:08
is it relevant as a concept at that age,
00:28:38:08 - 00:28:40:03
or does it only emerge in mid childhood?
00:28:40:14 - 00:28:42:03
Is that partly why
00:28:42:04 - 00:28:44:00
when we do see autism in girls,
00:28:44:00 - 00:28:46:19
it often does get diagnosed later
because girls are able
00:28:46:19 - 00:28:49:01
to mask more effectively than boys
we don't know.
00:28:49:09 - 00:28:51:06
So it's something
that's a really active area
00:28:51:06 - 00:28:52:21
of exploration at the moment.
00:28:53:09 - 00:28:54:17
And one of my PhD students
00:28:54:17 - 00:28:57:08
is doing some work
on masking in autistic women.
00:28:57:08 - 00:28:58:17
So later in the lifespan.
00:28:58:17 - 00:29:01:23
But to try to link that to brain measures,
to try to understand
00:29:01:23 - 00:29:04:05
what brain structures are being used when,
00:29:04:14 - 00:29:06:00
when women feel they're masking.
00:29:06:00 - 00:29:07:17
Because if we can do that,
we might be able to
00:29:07:17 - 00:29:09:19
then come down to younger
kids to ask, well,
00:29:09:19 - 00:29:12:08
are we seeing those same kinds
of patterns of brain activation?
00:29:12:08 - 00:29:14:01
And does that suggest that,
00:29:14:02 - 00:29:15:21
you know, whatever support
we might be putting in
00:29:15:21 - 00:29:17:13
place is actually encouraging children
00:29:17:13 - 00:29:19:05
to to hide their autistic traits
00:29:19:05 - 00:29:20:22
rather than feel like they can flourish
00:29:21:06 - 00:29:22:11
in a particular environment.
00:29:24:05 - 00:29:25:17
And so our babies are and we
00:29:25:17 - 00:29:28:09
do a lot of work
with thinking deeply around
00:29:28:09 - 00:29:31:04
parent confidence
and how we can support parents,
00:29:31:18 - 00:29:32:18
being more confident
00:29:32:18 - 00:29:34:05
in their day to day lives,
00:29:34:13 - 00:29:36:21
as they look after their young children
00:29:36:21 - 00:29:39:00
and ultimately help them thrive.
00:29:39:09 - 00:29:40:22
Is there anything that, you know,
00:29:40:22 - 00:29:43:17
you think we can do to help parents
be more confident
00:29:43:19 - 00:29:47:11
with some of these topics
and understanding some of the science
00:29:47:11 - 00:29:49:08
behind autism, ADHD,
00:29:49:08 - 00:29:51:12
and other neurodivergent traits?
00:29:51:24 - 00:29:52:08
Yeah.
00:29:52:08 - 00:29:55:07
So I think definitely connecting parents
with some of the resources
00:29:55:07 - 00:29:56:24
that are out there.
And so we can put some,
00:29:57:08 - 00:29:59:10
some links on because I think
that would be really helpful.
00:29:59:10 - 00:30:01:13
There's lots of sort of parent
friendly content.
00:30:02:10 - 00:30:04:11
I think one of the things
that's really challenging for parents
00:30:04:11 - 00:30:06:19
is you get completely overwhelmed
with all of the content.
00:30:06:19 - 00:30:09:12
And so having a place to kind of create
00:30:09:15 - 00:30:12:17
evidence based, informed, scientifically,
00:30:13:02 - 00:30:15:12
underpinned information for families
00:30:15:12 - 00:30:17:13
is really important to helping families
00:30:17:13 - 00:30:19:19
sort of sort
through all the information they get.
00:30:20:06 - 00:30:21:22
I think one of the big challenges
00:30:21:22 - 00:30:23:10
of parenting now that does,
00:30:23:14 - 00:30:26:10
I think, impact parents confidence
is that you are constantly
00:30:26:10 - 00:30:29:13
getting a stream of information
about what you should be doing.
00:30:30:16 - 00:30:31:13
And I think a lot of
00:30:31:13 - 00:30:34:09
communication focuses
when you, you know, what you should do.
00:30:34:09 - 00:30:36:16
And I think for a lot of parents,
they feel that there's just no way
00:30:36:16 - 00:30:39:00
they're going to manage
all of these different things every day.
00:30:39:09 - 00:30:41:14
So I think making sure that communication
00:30:41:14 - 00:30:43:18
really just focuses on the very core
00:30:43:18 - 00:30:45:10
things and also emphasizes that there's
00:30:45:10 - 00:30:47:09
a really broad range of parenting styles
00:30:47:09 - 00:30:48:21
and they're all fine.
00:30:50:02 - 00:30:51:14
There's not kind of one very,
00:30:51:14 - 00:30:53:05
very specific way to raise a child.
00:30:53:05 - 00:30:55:23
And this is where
some of the cross-cultural work
00:30:55:23 - 00:30:57:11
becomes important, that
00:30:57:12 - 00:31:00:04
actually there's a whole range
of different parenting techniques
00:31:00:04 - 00:31:02:07
and styles and approaches
that can be effective.
00:31:02:07 - 00:31:04:20
And really the core of
it is just having that relationship
00:31:04:20 - 00:31:07:13
with your child
and trying to follow their, their needs.
00:31:08:09 - 00:31:09:16
Yeah, I mean, that's what we see.
00:31:09:16 - 00:31:12:12
Again, those parents that come to us with
00:31:12:13 - 00:31:14:10
with challenges or concerns,
00:31:14:18 - 00:31:15:23
helping them navigate
00:31:15:23 - 00:31:18:18
what is a very complicated ecosystem,
00:31:19:12 - 00:31:21:22
and identifying the right people
to speak to.
00:31:22:00 - 00:31:22:04
Yeah.
00:31:22:04 - 00:31:24:07
It's obviously helpful
that you've laid out
00:31:24:07 - 00:31:26:19
the first ports of call
00:31:26:19 - 00:31:28:12
to get the right support and services.
00:31:28:12 - 00:31:30:16
And again, that's
what our teams try and do to point to,
00:31:30:24 - 00:31:32:07
to send teams
00:31:32:07 - 00:31:34:05
locally and and GP's and everyone.
00:31:34:05 - 00:31:35:22
So, thank you very much
00:31:35:22 - 00:31:37:10
for all the work you're doing
00:31:37:18 - 00:31:39:06
and what's giving you the most joy
00:31:39:06 - 00:31:41:07
in your research over the years?
00:31:41:07 - 00:31:43:00
I mean, definitely working
with the families,
00:31:43:00 - 00:31:44:16
that they're just fascinating people.
00:31:44:16 - 00:31:46:23
The children are fascinating
watching them grow up,
00:31:47:07 - 00:31:50:05
you know, often, often
neurodivergent children will have like,
00:31:50:05 - 00:31:51:18
super interesting interests, or
00:31:51:18 - 00:31:53:12
they'll see the world
in a really different way.
00:31:53:12 - 00:31:55:04
So you learn tons from them.
00:31:56:00 - 00:31:58:20
And we've had an increasing ability
to work
00:31:58:20 - 00:32:01:14
with the autistic community,
I would say over my career.
00:32:02:13 - 00:32:05:13
And that has been incredibly valuable.
00:32:05:13 - 00:32:07:02
So being able to talk to autistic people
00:32:07:02 - 00:32:09:02
about their journeys, their experiences,
00:32:09:02 - 00:32:11:04
you know, the autistic parents,
you come into a study
00:32:11:10 - 00:32:13:24
and just learning how to see the world
in a in a different way.
00:32:13:24 - 00:32:16:14
That's that's, I would say the joys.
00:32:17:00 - 00:32:19:02
And what's the biggest myth
00:32:19:07 - 00:32:21:16
that you'd like to bust about autism?
00:32:23:10 - 00:32:24:12
I think the biggest myth
00:32:24:12 - 00:32:26:08
is that vaccines cause autism.
00:32:26:08 - 00:32:27:21
And we know that that's not true.
00:32:28:11 - 00:32:31:14
I think the other big myth about autism
00:32:32:01 - 00:32:33:14
is that it's,
00:32:33:18 - 00:32:34:23
well, it's not necessarily a myth,
00:32:34:23 - 00:32:37:11
but it is a big misperception
about autism.
00:32:37:11 - 00:32:39:03
There's a lot of stigma around autism.
00:32:39:03 - 00:32:41:10
There's a lot of, concern
00:32:41:10 - 00:32:44:16
that autism might mean that a child
can't be happy or that a child
00:32:44:16 - 00:32:46:08
can't have friends, or that a child,
00:32:46:23 - 00:32:49:00
is limited in their in their development.
00:32:49:00 - 00:32:51:18
And we know actually, from all the work
we do with autistic people,
00:32:51:18 - 00:32:53:07
that there are lots of ways
00:32:53:07 - 00:32:55:03
in which autistic people
find joy in the world.
00:32:55:22 - 00:32:58:00
And we can see autism as part of a broader
00:32:58:00 - 00:32:59:18
spectrum of neurodiversity rather
00:32:59:18 - 00:33:01:05
than as something that,
00:33:01:10 - 00:33:03:10
necessarily
means that your child will never be happy.
00:33:03:10 - 00:33:06:03
And I think that's something that,
you know, a lot of parents really struggle
00:33:06:03 - 00:33:06:15
with. But,
00:33:07:16 - 00:33:08:18
but the work that
00:33:08:18 - 00:33:10:07
we're trying to do in the other
people is trying
00:33:10:07 - 00:33:13:18
to are trying to do is, is to figure out
how we can create an environment
00:33:13:18 - 00:33:15:17
in an, a space around the child
00:33:15:17 - 00:33:17:20
so that they can flourish and be happy to.
00:33:18:21 - 00:33:19:08
And you've
00:33:19:08 - 00:33:21:02
obviously worked with hundreds of babies
00:33:21:02 - 00:33:24:00
through your studies,
through the basis work that you did.
00:33:24:06 - 00:33:26:19
What's it been like seeing those, young,
00:33:26:19 - 00:33:29:22
young children grow up to be seven
and seeing their journey?
00:33:30:05 - 00:33:33:04
I mean, that's the biggest privilege,
I would say, of our job,
00:33:33:04 - 00:33:35:06
is that our families come and share
00:33:35:06 - 00:33:36:22
that children's journey with us.
00:33:37:08 - 00:33:38:13
And so some of our families
00:33:38:13 - 00:33:41:08
will come in with babies one month old
and now they're teenagers.
00:33:41:08 - 00:33:43:03
And we're doing this art science project
00:33:43:03 - 00:33:44:23
now to connect with the teenagers,
00:33:44:23 - 00:33:47:13
to ask them
about their experience of their journey,
00:33:47:23 - 00:33:49:02
and to put that together
00:33:49:02 - 00:33:50:24
with the data we've collected from them
00:33:50:24 - 00:33:52:11
so we can try to understand both
00:33:52:11 - 00:33:55:16
from their perspective,
how they see the neurodivergent identity
00:33:55:16 - 00:33:58:17
in their family,
and how that can help us better understand
00:33:58:17 - 00:34:01:08
some of the data
we collected from our brain images.
00:34:01:16 - 00:34:03:22
And that is just the biggest,
00:34:04:17 - 00:34:05:15
privilege to be able
00:34:05:15 - 00:34:07:03
to work with children and families
00:34:07:03 - 00:34:09:20
and kind of see the world
through their eyes at least a little bit.
00:34:09:23 - 00:34:11:04
I bet.
00:34:11:04 - 00:34:12:16
What gives you the most hope
00:34:12:16 - 00:34:14:03
for the next generation
00:34:14:03 - 00:34:16:08
of neurodivergent children
00:34:16:08 - 00:34:17:21
and a world that they're growing up in?
00:34:18:03 - 00:34:19:16
I think the fact that that
00:34:19:23 - 00:34:21:01
there's a real effort
00:34:21:01 - 00:34:23:04
to tackle the stigma around autism
00:34:23:04 - 00:34:25:02
and that there's been a huge improvement
00:34:25:02 - 00:34:27:03
in hearing autistic people's voices,
00:34:27:03 - 00:34:28:20
hearing from neurodivergent families,
00:34:28:20 - 00:34:30:10
celebrating neurodiversity,
00:34:30:16 - 00:34:33:09
I think that has massively changed
the way we view
00:34:33:09 - 00:34:36:02
neurodiversity
and the ways in which we can provide
00:34:36:02 - 00:34:39:19
more supportive environments,
and really recognizing that providing
00:34:39:19 - 00:34:42:04
a better environment helps everybody,
not just to,
00:34:42:12 - 00:34:44:00
a certain subset of children.
00:34:44:02 - 00:34:45:15
So I think that shift
00:34:45:15 - 00:34:47:08
in how we see neurodivergent is
00:34:47:08 - 00:34:50:02
and how we celebrate it is going to make
a huge difference going forward.
00:34:50:13 - 00:34:50:23
Great.
00:34:50:23 - 00:34:52:14
That's a nice positive note to close on.
00:34:52:14 - 00:34:55:11
I think what I'm
taking from this conversation
00:34:55:14 - 00:34:57:21
is that we need to stop waiting
00:34:57:21 - 00:35:01:07
for a label to start a support baby zone.
00:35:01:13 - 00:35:02:21
We see the power of meeting
00:35:02:21 - 00:35:05:03
a child where they are right now.
00:35:06:00 - 00:35:08:15
As Emily's research shows, a snapshot
00:35:08:15 - 00:35:12:07
at two doesn't
define a child's destination.
00:35:12:19 - 00:35:15:02
It just tells us where that journey
begins.
00:35:15:21 - 00:35:17:07
Developmental trajectories
00:35:17:07 - 00:35:18:21
can and do change,
00:35:19:04 - 00:35:21:10
and I think that matters enormously
for the parents
00:35:21:10 - 00:35:22:23
we see every week,
00:35:23:00 - 00:35:24:16
parents who are watching their children
00:35:24:16 - 00:35:26:13
grow, and sometimes worrying
00:35:26:13 - 00:35:28:07
whether every little difference
00:35:28:07 - 00:35:30:04
means something fixed and permanent.
00:35:30:18 - 00:35:31:23
It doesn't.
00:35:31:23 - 00:35:33:07
Development is a journey
00:35:33:07 - 00:35:34:20
and not a destination.
00:35:35:03 - 00:35:36:06
If you remember one thing,
00:35:36:06 - 00:35:38:01
trust your observations.
00:35:38:11 - 00:35:39:24
But if something feels different,
00:35:40:11 - 00:35:42:13
also trust that trajectories can change.
00:35:43:01 - 00:35:44:13
Both things can be true.
00:35:44:13 - 00:35:46:23
You're not imagining it
and it's not fixed.
00:35:47:08 - 00:35:49:04
Emily, thank you so much for joining me.
00:35:49:10 - 00:35:51:15
And thank you for listening
to Best Beginnings,
00:35:51:15 - 00:35:53:03
a Baby Zone podcast.
00:35:53:09 - 00:35:56:03
For more evidence
informed support on babies
00:35:56:03 - 00:35:58:14
and the early years, subscribe
to this channel.
00:35:59:02 - 00:36:00:03
If you found this helpful,
00:36:00:03 - 00:36:02:01
share it with someone who might need it.
00:36:02:12 - 00:36:03:10
We'll see you next time.