Why As don't equal mastery

Why do students earn A’s in math… yet still struggle to pass state tests?
 In today’s episode of Tier 1 Interventions, Cheri Dotterer and Jonily Zupancic uncover the hidden truth behind traditional grading: grades measure compliance—NOT mastery.

You’ll learn why “good students” often carry the deepest learning gaps, how traditional grading systems mislead parents and teachers, and what REAL mastery looks like inside a math classroom.

✔ Why A’s don’t equal mastery
 ✔ Why compliant students still have conceptual gaps
 ✔ How nonlinear instruction strengthens the math brain
 ✔ Why multitasking is a myth (and what switch-tasking really is)
 ✔ How to redesign math learning around true understanding
 ✔ The 3 visual anchors that transform math thinking: Lockers, Rectangles & Pizzas

If you’re a teacher, homeschool parent, interventionist, or administrator who wants students to actually understand math—not just earn grades—this episode is essential.

 Drop your favorite math jingles in the comments.

👉 Want to experience the full workshop?
 You can sign up to experience one workshop for just $47. The link is here.

https://disabilitylabs.com/live-webinar/mastery-math-method-dec2025/register

⏱️ Chapters

00:00 – Welcome + Why This Episode Matters

00:37 – Nonlinear Teaching & The 12 Song Story

01:33 – Why Traditional Learning Fails Many Students

02:27 – Multitasking vs. Switch-Tasking

03:58 – Nonlinear Thinking in Math Instruction

05:53 – When “Good” Students Struggle Most

06:45 – The Parent Question That Exposed the Problem

08:12 – Straight A’s but Failing State Tests

09:40 – Why Grades Don’t Measure Mastery

11:00 – Teachers Sound Off on Grading Scales

12:30 – Compliance vs. Understanding

13:18 – Why We Need Mastery-Based Grading

14:05 – Humor, Memory & Celine Dion

15:10 – Type A vs. Type Z Teachers

16:40 – What Needs to Change in Math Education

17:00 – Closing + Next Week’s Teaser

🎯 Ready to Change Math Outcomes in 10 Days?

👉 Join our FREE Masterclass for school leaders, teachers, and OTs:
 https://disabilitylabs.com/calendar

🎧 Prefer to Listen On the Go?

Spotify
Apple Podcasts
Amazon/Audible

🔗 Stay Connected

🌐 Website: https://disabilitylabs.com/courses/mastery-math-bundle
📧 Disability Labs Community: https://disabilitylabs.com/community/3d-learning-lounge-1

🎙️ Credits:
Host: Cheri Dotterer
Co-Host: Jonily Zupancic
Production: Disability Labs Podcast Network

🧠 Resources Mentioned:

Mastery Math Method Level One (Lifetime Access): https://disabilitylabs.com/courses/mastery-math-bundle
Mastery Math Method Level Two (Annual Subscription): https://disabilitylabs.com/courses/mastery-math-method-group-coaching

⚠️ Disclaimer: The content shared in this video is for educational purposes only and does not replace your district’s policies or individualized education plans. Always consult with your instructional team before implementing new strategies.

🏷️ Hashtags

#MathIsMessy #Tier1Interventions #MasteryMathMethod #BrainBasedLearning #REWIREMethod #OTinSchools #TeacherMindset

Creators and Guests

Host

Cheri Dotterer

Hacking barriers to writing success, dysgraphia No ✏️ Required. 30-sec@time Speaker | Podcast Host | Author | Consultanthttps://t.co/eM1CXSUIoZ

Host

Jonily Zupancic

Middle School Math Instructional Coach

What is Tier 1 Interventions?

Math intervention, writing intervention, neurobiology, and cognitive-based learning - Jonily Zupancic and Cheri Dotterer are sharing how to incorporate them into your classroom. Jonily is a secondary math teacher and instructional coach for math K-12. Cheri is an occupational therapist specializing in neurology-based treatment across the lifespan and a Strategy-based Interventionist. Jonily secretly calls Cheri her Lesson Plan Whisperer because Cheri is always in her head, reminding her of the foundations of development before academics begin.

They met in 2018 and have been talking ever since. Together, they have discovered the Miracle Math Classroom. This classroom embeds all math standards from Kindergarten to twelfth grade, plus neuro-based interventions that improve proficiency and boost student engagement. Both gifted and learning support students thrive using the interventions they share, plus all students in between. Using cognitive enhancing techniques strategically placed in the lesson plan, students learn more and enjoy school more, and fewer students get removed from critical instruction for Tier Three Interventions.

Jonily has discovered how to teach all Kindergarten through algebra math standards using twelve, that’s right, twelve Reference Tasks. They include the Pizza Problem, 120-Chart, Paper Folding, Making Rectangles, Quick Dots, Locker Problem, Jesse and Kay, Geoboard, Candy Problem, Paint Problem, Staircase, and the Function Machine.

Cheri uses Body-Brain Anchors to ignite the flame inside everyone’s brain for learning. Whether a person is five or 90, her strategy-based interventions will ignite that flame. These Brain-Body Anchors include the Handstand Flip, Interlaced Bilateral Integration, and the Body Sentence Alphabet.

Together, they connect the puzzle behind math instruction and instructional delivery alongside these cognitive-enhancing activities to maximize math education for all students.

Join us live on the third Saturday of the month, sans July, for the math behind the Reference Task. Every live event is approximately 2.5 contact hours. The first 30-ish minutes become this podcast. To hear the entire training, join our membership program.

Please note: we will not record on holiday weekends. Join our mailing list for updates on dates.

To join us live, register at Tier1interventions.com. The 2.5-hour sessions include the PowerPoint slides, additional audio files of Jonily teaching the Reference Task, resources from Cheri, and much more. A subscription to these 2.5-hour Workshops is $97/month or $947/year.

Membership includes:
*Approximately 27.5 hours of direct training per year
*Audio files of Jonily's Hear Me Teach segments - complete
*PowerPoint Slides to grab and use in your Magic Math Classroom
*Resources from Jonily and Cheri for you and your students
*A copy of Math DYSconnected when released.

Or, you can listen to the first segment on your favorite podcast app for free; no membership is required. No matter how you listen, you will come away with golden nuggets that will transform your classroom.

Reach out to Jonily: [e-mail]
Reach out to Cheri: [e-mail]

Tier1Interventions.com

Hey everybody and welcome to Tier One
Interventions podcast, where we look

at your core classroom and we try to
maximize your gifts and help you reach

every student with their math, with their
writing, and with their reading skills.

But we concentrate mostly on math here
at Tier One Interventions podcast.

And our math leader, miss Jonily, is
ready to share some gold nuggets today.

Welcome to the podcast Jonily, and
they are gold nuggets because these

last few weeks have been a whirlwind.

I'm gonna kinda take us back a little
bit, and there's another community that

I teach called a Math teacher Mastermind,
and I'm going to launch our session today.

I'm gonna take you back to a
story I started to tell soon.

Now, this story is about the 12 song.

So I haven't even got to the 12 song yet.

But see, I had to give the
background story for the 12 song.

But then during this, now I'm making
a point here on about linear and

iterative teaching style, which is
gonna connect back to a story that I was

telling previously about 14 years ago.

Teacher of record.

I'm now teacher of record.

I wanna tell you something about dah.

I'm gonna tell you that now.

'cause see, I never finished that story.

See, this is how my brain works now.

My brain works in a very nonlinear way,

but I believe it's increased my iq.

I also believe it has increased my
productivity, my efficiency, my executive

functioning, and it's also increased
my expertise in my content area.

The only way you're going to be able to
scale your intelligence, your performance,

your efficiency, your productivity, the
results you wanna get, I'm telling you

here right now, the only way you're gonna
be able to scale that is if you start

thinking non-type A. You gotta get out
of that type A. You gotta get out of it.

You can go back to it.

It's important too, but you have to start
thinking in different ways, which are

very non-linear, random, don't help me.

Switch tasking type of ways.

Now, no offense to the men.

I think there's a research study.

If not, maybe this is just somebody's
opinion, but the woman brain, 'cause

we always say, oh, women are so much
better at multitasking than men.

I will tell you though, women are
actually better at switch tasking, jumping

from one thing to another that are not
connected and making it all happen.

So you really can't multitask.

That is, let me repeat
that in a better way.

You can't multitask with two
cognitive exercises at the same time.

A coach of Sherry and I Carrie
over Brenner, brilliant man.

Shout out to Carrie over Brenner.

He would talk about this all the time.

You're really not multitasking.

That's the phrase people use.

You're actually really good at switch
tasking, which means you can jump

from one thing to another and get more
done more efficiently and more time.

That's switch tasking.

That's what I'm talking about
with this non-linear thinking.

But Carrie ob Brenner used to have two
people come up like on stage and have both

of them tell him a story at the same time.

Different stories just to prove
like you can't fully listen to.

Both of those are cognitive exercises.

Those are cognitive tasks.

Now I can listen to a podcast and I can
unload the dishwasher at the same time.

Carrie would use that as an example
because unloading the dishwasher, if I do

it all the time, it's a non-thinking task.

Okay?

And I can do that while
breathing and chewing gum.

Do you see?

Our brains and bodies are magnificent.

But I wouldn't call that multitasking
because truly the brain cannot do two

cognitive functions at the same time.

But what females oftentimes are
forced to do is to switch task.

Now I'm gonna say this a
different way because I don't

mean to be sexist or whatever.

The male and female brain are different.

I'm not gonna get into that.

But I will say anyone who's gotten
really good at switch tasking, because

I do know personally of some single
fathers that are doing amazing.

And at first they were like not doing well
with life and the kids and functioning.

And so anyone that can get really
good at switch tasking and thinking

in this nonlinear way to strive to
be more efficient, more productive,

produce more, all of that, this is the
type of thinking I'm talking about.

So when I had the kids repetitively
do twelves, then I jolted

them to two other questions.

And then I might have even wrote,
written on the board, how do

squares and rectangles relate?

That's an even bigger jolt.

This is what we need to be
doing in our math classrooms.

Like within, within 12
minutes, that all happened.

So let me go back to this
story about the linear.

So after 14 years of not being teacher
of record, I'm teacher of record, had

parent teacher conferences last week.

The students that are struggling
most with my flavor, the students

that are struggling most with my
flavor are the students and I'm gonna

say the majority of them are female

and the majority of them that are
struggling with my flavor and my style

of math instruction and facilitation
are the students that are really

good play the school game kids.

And

I actually said this to their parents
and I said, your kiddo is so amazing.

Does everything Absolutely.

To the point that they are to
do that are a gem personality.

Beautiful.

But there are a lot of math gaps
and I need to be real about that.

I don't give a lot of
participation points.

I don't give a lot of completion grade.

Oh, you did your homework, 10 outta 10.

Ooh, that's hard because that's
saying they have a hundred

percent in math right now.

A grade to me is how much of
the content they understand.

Now the grade to me is personal
because if they don't understand the

content, that's on me, not the student.

So see, there's a catch 22 here.

So some students that are used
to getting 97% in math might

all of a sudden be getting 83%.

And this is causing huge devastation.

But then one of the parents I met with
last week, the dad said, because I thought

I, I felt that some of the families
that came in were very upset with me.

They were very gracious.

But I get this a lot too, especially
when I was classroom teacher a number

of years ago, very gracious to me, just
had really good, curious questions.

And all it takes is just some
explanation, some conversation.

And so I said everything and I
said, I even said, that's on me.

And one of the dads said to me, I re I
really appreciate what you're saying.

He said, because we have a har, we've had
a hard time for years understanding why

she keeps getting an A in math, but she's
never passed the end of year state test.

Repeat that, that's worth repeating.

I was going to, and I was forcing
myself to have an awkward silence.

So here we go again.

The dad says to me, it really made
me curious over the last few years,

the last years, I'm gonna say,
this student is a ninth grader.

They take the state test from third grade.

Why?

She would always get, a's in math, her
report card always had a's in math,

but then we would get the state math
score of the test that she takes at the

end of the year and she hasn't passed.

That's a, that's a problem.

That's a problem on so many levels.

Now I've been on way too
much of a soapbox right now.

So we need to transition.

I'm gonna transition
with how do we fix this?

How do we fix this?

We fix it with Mastery Math method,
tier one interventions, and at

the level two level, everything
we do comes back to lockers.

Rectangles pizzas.

Oh my.

So here we go.

Now I'm gonna jump into the content,
but before I do, let me not like speed

by any of your comments or feedback.

Let me pause for a moment.

Any thoughts, comments, feedback,
or take this moment to put any

comments in school, please.

But unmute and talk if you would like to.

I think the people that have been using
the school chat are offering really

valuable little tidbits of advice.

Thank you, Natalie.

Thank you Kirk.

Thank you Janet.

Thank you Kathy.

So refresh your screens and
put your comments in there.

Tell us verbally what your takeaways
are, and you never know when

Sherry's gonna use that material.

I 100% agree.

I have major beef with our like,
current grading scale, like the

a hundred percent grading scale
and participation and all that.

'cause yeah.

How do you get these kids that
get A's and B's because they're

compliant, but then that doesn't
reflect their knowledge of math?

And then participation looks
different for everyone.

Like I have kids that
participate every day.

That doesn't mean they're
sharing out their thinking.

But they're participating.

They know what's going on.

So then you're bringing in your
own bias and your own judgment.

And then how do you call that a great,
so I'm very, I have tried very hard

to make it as mastery as possible
within our 100% grading scale.

I don't do participation, I
don't do fluff, I don't do

com, a lot of completion stuff.

I've made rubrics and scales for
all the tests and things that are

trying to show mastery within that
system, but I have major beef.

Can we also overhaul the grading scale?

Can we add that to our mission?

Please Tell us more about that, Natalie.

'cause I think I might know
what you mean, but tell us.

I just, we have, I know, there's a whole
debate if they don't do it, that like

we're setting kids up by not some places
not allowing you to give less than 50%,

but then we also give way more chances to
fail than we do to pass or show mastery.

So I'm like we're setting them
up for failure to start with.

'cause they have all these chances.

Yes, I, and we can go back and
forth on the giving fifties

and zeros and all that, but.

How let's just make it about the math.

Take judgment, take bias out of it.

And you either have the
standard mastered or you don't.

And it's not a judgment on character,
it's just communication on what I teach.

I don't teach co compliance.

That's not, I want that, but
that's not what I'm grading on.

I just want to say you're,
we have the standard or not.

And that, that's it.

And not being an a student versus
an F student, it's just data.

So let's fix it.

Let's just overhaul the whole thing.

Beautiful ground and start over.

I I am put in a vote right now that on
another day at another time, we create

a podcast episode with us on grading.

100%. I am all in.

'cause I've worked very hard the
last few years on this, and I

have, that's my one of my major
soapbox points is that I love it.

I love it.

Other thoughts, comments,
questions, takeaways?

I also had a funny one.

It's not like singing to activate
learning, but every time we're like, I ask

them something that they have to remember
and I can see they're thinking real hard.

And I say, oh, we gotta dig deep in
our brain pocket and dust it off.

I'll sing Celine Dion.

It's all coming back, it's
all coming back to me now.

And they hate it so much
and I love it so much.

And it just, they're
like, what are you doing?

And I'm like, we're thinking and we're
remembering and you forgot and now

you're trying really hard to remember.

And it brings me so much joy.

Anyway.

Oh, Natalie, I'm just
looking at your comment.

In school, no one has ever
accused me of being type.

Oh no one in, I am so I don't even know
if I'm type B. I think I need a whole new

Le I'm probably like type Z at the ZWI.

You are your own type.

Natalie.

You go girl.

No, but type A. Not this girl.

Never.

No, she's not, never once.

She's not, she never been.

She never will be.

Nope.

I'm a I'm a reformed type A.

See, here's what really triggered
me from going to type A to not.

Is, I always thought I
was gonna be a girl mom.

I was a pretty girly girl.

I was a cheerleader, a dancer.

And I was get, I was
supposed to be a girl mom.

And then, the nature of it said no,
you're not going to be a girl mom, ever.

So I had two boys.

And if you want to, if you wanna
be forced out of your type A

personality, just raise boys.

Just raise boys.

Kirk, I'm really sorry.

Today, this seems like a bash on the
male, but I mean that in all goodness.

I'm used to it.

But here's the thing, and I tell my
boys all the time, I tell my husband,

I tell my boys all the time, I said,
I am who I am today because of you.

I would've never experienced
you all listening and watching.

You all would've never experienced this
type of Jay-Z without the boys in my life.

They have made life so much more fun.

I do not sweat the small stuff
any, when you're Type A you sweat

a lot of small stuff that's bad.

It's very bad.

It, you can't you gotta if you
wake up breathing in the morning

and you can get outta bed like.

Let go of some of your type A because
life can be so much more beautiful

when boys teach you how to live it.

So thank you Kirk.

I agree a hundred percent.

I'm a boy mom as well, and I am type Jay-Z
I love a lot of stuff you're saying I can

mirror and I've I appreciate the research
that you're sharing because I've done

all this stuff, but when you bring it up,
I'm like, that's why that's so effective.

And so that helps me keep being my
silly self because the kids respond

to it and I have a lot of positive
feedback after they go past my class.

But yeah, when you can teach boys, you
can teach anybody, that's for sure.

Whew.

If your brain is buzzing after
today’s session on grading, compliance

culture, and what it really means
to measure understanding—good.

Leave a comment and share
your biggest takeaway.

That’s exactly where growth begins.

Next week, we turn the corner into
the how: I’m showing you the visual

foundations behind lockers, rectangles,
and pizzas, and why these three

structures unlock every major math
concept from third grade through Algebra.

And hey—if you’re loving this and
want to get the full workshop where

we go step-by-step into the Mastery
Math Method, you can sign up to

experience one workshop for just $47.

The link is waiting for
you in the show notes."