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Stacey Flaster and Dori Goldman are two ladies obsessed with cults and true crime. Join them as they take us into the depths of some of the most notorious cults, crimes, and killers that the world has ever known. They consume content and ask deep dark questions that only a certified expert can answer... enter Dr. John Mayer. Dr. John is an internationally known Forensic Psychologist and expert on violent behavior and crime prevention, with 35 years of experience consulting to law enforcement and testifying in hundreds of court cases as an expert witness. He is the "Real Deal" and will help Stacey and Dori get to the bottom of of their curious criminal minds.
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Stacey
Candy.
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Stacey
A podcast about cults, crimes and killers.
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Stacey
the way down. God, greed and the Cult of Gwen Shamblin. On HBO Max is the chilling true story of a woman who turned faith into fear and devotion into control.
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Stacey
Gwen Shamblin rose to fame in the 1990s with The Way Down Workshop, a Christian weight loss program that promised spiritual freedom through self-denial. But behind the glossy sermons and the big hair was something darker. Gwen didn't just want followers. She wanted absolute obedience. Her remnant Fellowship church became a world of strict rules, public shaming, and total control over its members, bodies, families, and souls.
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Dori
Then take the scandals, the abuse allegations, the manipulation, and finally the shocking plane crash in 2021 that killed Gwen, her husband Joe, Lara and other top leaders, leaving behind a trail of trauma and unanswered questions.
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Dori
So who the hell are we?
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Stacey
I'm Stacey and I own a theater school.
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Dori
And I'm Dory. I'm a corporate recruiter.
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Stacey/Dori
Those are our professions. But this is our obsession.
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Dori
We're just a couple of broads obsessed with cults and true crime.
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Stacey
When we decided to do a podcast, we wanted it to feel different and fresh. Enter doctor John Mayer. He's a real qualified expert and he is here to answer all of our deep, dark questions.
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Dori
He's an actual doctor.
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Stacey
Doctor John is the real deal. He has been on countless cases evaluating criminals. He will be able to keep us honest and allow us to dive deeper and answer the whys and hows of this crazy shit.
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Stacey/Dori
Okay, so now that that's out of the way, let's discuss.
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Stacey/Dori
Gwen Shamblin. Very high here.
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Stacey/Dori
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Dr. John
So,
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Stacey/Dori
Like, I think the overall, like, view that I got from watching this documentary is that anorexia causes cults. Is that something that you also kind of, thought about? That you have to be, at least for remnant church, you kind of have to be anorexic to be a part of this cult. Well, in order. Yeah. In order to be accepted by her, by Gwen, you had to.
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Stacey/Dori
You had to give your. You give yourself to God. God could help you with weight loss, you know, which also I, you know, cutting down on calories, starving yourself, fasting. All these things were for God. So when people, when people use, God, they automatically have a defense. They don't they don't have to say anything. They can use the religion as spiritual manipulation, which happens in most cults.
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Stacey/Dori
All cults, there's manipulation and mostly spiritual and religious, and the spiritual and religious manipulation kept people involved. And the more you know, I know I don't know if you know this or maybe you do when you're hungry, you tend to be very agreeable and tired. You know.
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Stacey/Dori
you get hangry? You get hangry.
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Stacey/Dori
And, you know, I think
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Stacey/Dori
you're vulnerable to become,
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Stacey/Dori
brainwashed. That's the word I'm trying to use. So you're vulnerable, become brainwashed and you start to lose weight, and then you think it's working, and then you join the church, and then you're part of this, and then she's telling you that you can't go to heaven if you're if you're fat and you know, all these, all these crazy, cockamamie things that she's saying.
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Unknown
Oh. Oh oh.
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Stacey/Dori
So this is essentially like a new a person who is in nutrition. Gwen Shamblin. Right? She. Yes. She wrote a book about nutrition and then became this cult leader because her husband was more into the ministry. Gwen writes this book, then starts getting this following through the church. Right? But it's based on losing weight. Kind of for the Lord.
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Stacey/Dori
Like what you were saying, right? So I'm just thinking, like myself. Like I'm a curvy gal, like, I think, yeah. So, like, initially I'd be like, oh yeah, like, okay, I'm going to lose weight. Like, this is good. But then when you're in it and these people that talked about this in the documentary, it's essentially starving yourself for the greater good of the Lord.
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Stacey/Dori
I don't know if that would be something then that me personally would stay in, like a lot of these other people for like ten plus years just to be skinny. And some of these people just like went like when shamblin is like a stick. She's what they call like a lollipop, like the bigger head with the humongous hair and the really tiny stick body.
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Stacey/Dori
Yeah. No, I personally would be able to follow this. I would never have to do it to go to heaven. Like that's the goal, right? You all want to get to heaven? Yeah, and I'm confused about that too. But, you know, maybe it's because we're the Jews, you know? But like Jews, we believe in heaven. We believe in heaven.
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Stacey/Dori
But yeah, but it's not, you know, we don't want to go to another. I mean, I'd rather be on Earth, you know what I'm saying? I'd rather be on Earth.
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Stacey/Dori
But
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Stacey/Dori
you know, there's people that were interviewed on the way down that got out of it. There's this cognitive dissonance. And in the first at first, like, how did I get here? How did I believe this? Why did I believe this?
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Stacey/Dori
in that, in this no offense or anything, but it's not like all of them are sin. They, they weren't able to maintain
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Stacey/Dori
the
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Stacey/Dori
physique that she and you know, interestingly enough, don't you think. And this is in my opinion, this is all about Gwen's eating disorder. Really?
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Stacey/Dori
everybody's dealing with her eating disorder. Yes. Everybody. That's that's essentially it. Like she created this eating disorder for herself. And then essentially, it's just starving yourself. It's starving. You're seeing it on.
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Stacey/Dori
we should bring up the child abuse use in abuse, in that abuse in this, in this, in this church because of this strict and I've seen this in Mormonism and Scientology and all the other stuff we watch, which is this strict, child rearing thing where no matter what you discipline the child, this child
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Stacey/Dori
is three months old or something and crying and wanting something, and you have to discipline them and you have to it's it's it's so backwards and crazy. But these people fall for it because they believe it. IBP, which is the Institute for Basic Life Principles, which we're not talking about today, necessarily has exactly the same belief about this sort of abuse, and it sort of fosters this environment of fear and and abuse and control and manipulation.
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Unknown
Jennifer and I have been blessed with this advice from Gwyn, and I can't tell you what a difference it's made.
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Unknown
A year ago, our two and a half year old, Avery. We had a real showdown with her, and her will was just one ruling and you know, enough was enough. And we had a a a leg spanking over and over and over and over and over and over again. And that has been a different child.
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Stacey/Dori
so a couple of points like obviously with the with the children abuse. Yes. You and I have watched a lot of documentaries, and listen to a lot of podcasts about college and this is no exception.
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Stacey/Dori
Like, why
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Stacey/Dori
why have kids if you're going to abuse them? And that seems to be a theme in a lot of these cults where essentially you are having children just to grow up and be a part of the just to procreate. So like, that's kind of right. And that's no exception with the remnant church. So you abuse them, you let them cry, you hit them.
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Stacey/Dori
You. I mean, again, this is not serve them. You love them. Yeah. This is not just the remnant church. This is a lot of cults that are out there. But but Gwen's church, but also to. Yes, an eating disorder and the others. This is what I'm fascinated about is that so many people were and are still doing this for the greater good of the Lord.
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Stacey/Dori
And you're so isolated from the outside world, you're not allowed to, like, really like engage and go on the internet and write it off and what others are saying. So you just stay in this. And like you said, Stacy, like most of these people are gaining it back. And then Gwen, at the time when she was alive, she is now dead.
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Stacey/Dori
But at the time, she didn't want these people at the church physically. If you if you're big, you're not even allowed to attend church services, right? She wouldn't even want you on consuming. Yeah, I'm on everybody. But you're not allowed to step foot in the church if you are not still that physical. Like really still thin body. That's interesting to.
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Stacey/Dori
It's like she was trying to build an army of people that had the same beliefs. But we should talk about you just touched on something. David Shamblin, her husband, her first husband, who she divorced and, you know, aside from, you know, this a little aside, she didn't believe in divorce. She didn't allow people to get divorced. She she didn't.
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Stacey/Dori
This was a big no no to her, except it was okay when she decided to get divorced.
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Unknown
All of those years, you have told people to suffer through their marriage. But then whenever the spirit hits you, you had a whole change of heart. Well, now it's okay to get divorced.
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Unknown
One of the most amazing things about One Shamblin is her perfect ability. You completely control her history and act as if David Shamblin, her husband of 40 years, never existed.
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Unknown
I just don't understand how you can get divorced and then, like, 14 kids try you engaged.
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Stacey/Dori
And this Joe Lara guy that she marries, this, you know, kind of sea level actor, in my opinion, who was best known for Tarzan. He wasn't a religious guy. He wasn't even he he had no spiritual, but he saw dollar signs and money, and that was that was his pattern.
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Stacey/Dori
So she divorced the other husband, David, because he was, you know, unsatisfactory to look at, probably. And also, she just was bored, you know, and she this hot guy walks in, this hunk walks in and she's like, oh, look at that guy. And the two of them together created this sort of plastic, you know, persona, and had these friends and they would fly around and, you know, when we, when I was giving the overview of what happened, you know, she was in it's interesting the way down.
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Stacey/Dori
I never thought about this. The plane went down. I, you know, it's I didn't think of that. But, you know, they were in this plane crash. This guy, Joe Lara was flying the plane. He had really, you know, it's like me saying, I have a certificate. You know, I have a certificate to fly a plane. I have no experience,
00:13:23:10 - 00:13:32:04
Stacey/Dori
You didn't know how to fly with instruments. And you, when you when you have bad weather or you don't know what's going on, you have to rely on the instruments. He did not know how to do that.
00:13:33:01 - 00:13:56:13
Unknown
He didn't have a lot of hours. In the specific airplane that he was flying, because he was just recently, certified to fly that plane. Currency is not the same as proficiency. He may have been current as far as the FAA was concerned, but maybe he didn't have enough time to be proficient.
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Stacey/Dori
They went down and they, you know, then this caused this big, this church.
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Stacey/Dori
What happened to her? She's not supposed to die. So pastor them didn't even believe it. They thought it was a conspiracy that they were keeping our live somewhere. How did she die? You know, it's like this weird, like, Eva Peron thing, but not. I'm not comparing it, but it's like this figure dies. Like, what do we do? How could she die when she said X, Y, and Z about all this stuff?
00:14:25:20 - 00:14:46:21
Stacey/Dori
So that created so much confusion. Elizabeth, her very, very, very anorexic looking daughter, in my opinion, is takes over the church but has never stepped foot in there. Since the death. It's since 2021, I believe, and her husband was one of the people that died in the plane crash. Yeah, it's all very tragic.
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Stacey/Dori
totally off topic, but I just thought of Army of Waifs because we were. Yeah. I mean, when they go when was trying to bring together an army of waifs. Okay, so that's one thing.
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Stacey/Dori
no, Dori, at this point in the segment
00:15:02:07 - 00:15:09:14
Stacey/Dori
we should introduce really the one and only the star, the infamous doctor, John Mayer.
00:15:09:14 - 00:15:11:24
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Stacey/Dori
Doctor, doctor, doctor John Mayer, are you here with us? Come on.
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Dr. John
Thank you for, you know, finally including me on this great day. And I've been wanting to pop in, you know, so I.
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Stacey/Dori
Yeah, yeah.
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Dr. John
So many things.
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Stacey/Dori
We got to build it. We got to build it John.
00:15:27:20 - 00:15:37:17
Dr. John
That's right. Yeah. That's right. They're they're tantalizing what you you said so okay. So shoot away. What kinds of things you want me to comment on and or well.
00:15:37:19 - 00:16:07:19
Stacey/Dori
You know, I John, you know, we talked about we've talked about this before, and Dorie and I discussed this, this the, the Glen Shamblin sort of look, and listen, I am not making fun of her. I'm not trying to disparage her. She was a beauty. She's actually a beautiful woman. She was. She was right. The evolution of her looks as she got thinner and more powerful, her hair got bigger.
00:16:07:21 - 00:16:09:20
Dr. John
Well, let me let me on this.
00:16:09:22 - 00:16:11:03
Stacey/Dori
Yeah, that's what I.
00:16:11:05 - 00:16:42:14
Dr. John
In on that because, in my experience with people like this who are head of these cults and, groups, these nefarious groups, shall we say, their appearance always changes and it always changes. Bizarrely, which kind of mimics their, psychological and psychiatric state, you know, that you can almost see a diagnosis in these people, in, in episodes to come.
00:16:42:14 - 00:17:05:21
Dr. John
We're going to talk about a lot of these kind of leaders in, in different things and including multi-level marketing schemes. And you can you see the, the founders involved? And that's one thing we see in my field is your, your body appearance. The way you present yourself to the world is also indicative of what's going on inside of you.
00:17:05:21 - 00:17:06:07
Dr. John
So.
00:17:06:08 - 00:17:06:24
Stacey/Dori
Right.
00:17:07:01 - 00:17:16:18
Dr. John
Gwen goes from being, I thought at the beginning, an attractive woman like you said. And then she becomes bizarre looking and.
00:17:16:22 - 00:17:19:19
Stacey/Dori
Yeah, like macabre, you know, sort of.
00:17:19:21 - 00:17:25:03
Dr. John
And that's really an indication of her inner, you know, my turmoil. Yeah.
00:17:25:03 - 00:17:43:19
Stacey/Dori
So the other question I had, is what happens to these people, like, you know, this woman dies, they have this cognitive dissonance, these people that were following her. What happens? What happens to them? What how how do they deal with that? Well, you know.
00:17:43:23 - 00:17:54:19
Dr. John
They become unhinged because they're after their anchor is gone. What they believed in and why they were following, it is taken away from them.
00:17:54:19 - 00:18:12:07
Dr. John
So it's like any other loss in life and maybe even more, traumatic for people that, because they put so much belief, it's not like a relative dies. You don't necessarily, lock, stock and barrel believe in Uncle Charlie's, strange beliefs.
00:18:12:07 - 00:18:31:22
Dr. John
But, when the person that you're, you're following and taught to follow with strict obedience, which is one of the classic, characteristics of these calls. This person is gone all of a sudden it's like, whoa, you're a ship without an anchor, right?
00:18:31:24 - 00:18:32:16
Stacey/Dori
You're right.
00:18:32:16 - 00:18:42:10
Stacey/Dori
So I have a question. So, we mentioned her son David, who has who has left the cult that.
00:18:42:15 - 00:18:44:22
Dr. John
Michael is Mike. Son Michael.
00:18:44:24 - 00:19:02:06
Stacey/Dori
Oh, so. Michael. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. That's okay. Okay. David is the first husband kind of dementia. Thank you. Doctor. Yes, yes, yes. A long line of dementia. Michael. Okay, so. But Michael also, I should say, changed his name to Michael Black. He dropped the shamblin, but keep going. Yes, yes.
00:19:02:10 - 00:19:08:12
Dr. John
Continue to listen to our podcast. And and be witness to Dory's increasing dementia as you eating.
00:19:08:16 - 00:19:14:01
Stacey/Dori
Seriously, I may start my own cult of dementia. Yes. Maybe we. Maybe we need to take notes. I'll join your cult.
00:19:14:14 - 00:19:39:19
Stacey/Dori
So, Michael, Michael left, and, even before, Gwen's plane went down and she passed away, his mother, who he refers to as Gwen and not as his mother. So he got out, and he speaks, very poorly about remnant Church and Gwen.
00:19:39:24 - 00:19:47:03
Stacey/Dori
However, he, doesn't say a lot about his sister Elizabeth, but Doctor John, I'm wondering
00:19:47:03 - 00:20:13:14
Stacey/Dori
the the whole documentary was about people, like, leaving and they have loved one still in it, but they're trying to get them out. But I'm always curious for a family member who is so ingrained and brought up in a cult like Michael was, and to be able to get out, how does one how does somebody have the courage to even think about it and do it?
00:20:13:22 - 00:20:39:12
Dr. John
Well, that speaks to his mental health. I mean, to me and I watched the documentary like both of you did. He's the only one that seems to have a solid mental health. And, and that goes to his mental health that he, couldn't question the beliefs and didn't ascribe, wholeheartedly the beliefs. But here's a key element for him.
00:20:39:14 - 00:21:07:19
Dr. John
Notice he fashioned himself as a musician and singer and, you know, etc.. So what does he have? He has a passion and he has an interest. From the cult. Cult. You know philosophy and practices. So that's very important. And I see that in patients all the time and in my work. So important to have that passion something that's.
00:21:07:19 - 00:21:28:05
Dr. John
Yeah. You know yours and only yours. And that was his health right there. So that gave him the courage to go. Well you know okay. My mother and sister and all these people around me are nice. But I'm interested in music and I want to make music and, you know, be a creator. So he he could he could break away that way.
00:21:28:06 - 00:21:30:21
Dr. John
So that's that's what you have in Michael.
00:21:30:23 - 00:21:41:17
Stacey/Dori
Right? Oh, that's so interesting. I mean, you, you know, he was indoctrinated for a while and he was sort of spouting the, the typical stuff that Glenn.
00:21:41:19 - 00:21:43:22
Dr. John
And that he grew up with this. Yeah.
00:21:43:24 - 00:21:46:19
Stacey/Dori
He grew up with it. But he,
00:21:46:19 - 00:22:03:15
Stacey/Dori
was able to finally get divorced from this woman that he didn't want to be married to. You know, she was so against divorce. And so, you know, she demonized so many things. I think it freed him. He was like, you know, I can, I can I have my own autonomy. I can do my own thing, you know.
00:22:03:19 - 00:22:04:09
Stacey/Dori
Yeah. I do have to.
00:22:04:09 - 00:22:30:03
Dr. John
Clarify for our audience. Yeah. Michael got divorced, and but it was from his marriage. Was like an arranged marriage by. Right again. And I don't know if Joe Laura was in the picture at that time, but, yeah, they're leaders. And I really hesitate calling this a church. And to really, you know, but I'm it coming out of my lips here.
00:22:30:05 - 00:22:55:08
Dr. John
The church really arranged for him to marry this, woman, which they did wholeheartedly with a lot of their followers. You know, these zombie like followers, the stick figures that were following, and so, you know, he wasn't he you could even see in the documentary they showed a clip of the the wedding. And, you know, it's almost like Michael Michael's got a sour look on his face.
00:22:55:10 - 00:22:57:10
Dr. John
Yeah.
00:22:57:12 - 00:23:30:04
Stacey/Dori
Poor guy. I mean, look at these churches. It it is, the cult churches, I should say. And Stacy alluded to this earlier. It is a lot about the money. It's really right. It's, the the Lord is a vehicle to make money. So that's like the leader. So I another I guess another question I have for Doctor John would be so with her daughter, who continues to be a part of the church.
00:23:30:06 - 00:23:51:21
Stacey/Dori
Do you think that she is in it for the money, or do you think that she truly has a passion for helping? Good question. Because I don't see a lot of help in a lot of these cults, like remnant Church, I see a lot of hindrance. I don't always see a lot of help. What do you think about Elizabeth, Doctor John?
00:23:51:23 - 00:24:16:20
Dr. John
Well, I might blow your mind with this response because my analysis of watching her, actually, if you watch her throughout the whole documentary, and I really would encourage, by the way, our audience to listen to our podcast, go and watch this documentary, then come back and listen to our podcast again, and you'll see you get some good insights as to what we're talking about here.
00:24:16:22 - 00:24:17:05
Dr. John
But
00:24:17:05 - 00:24:47:20
Dr. John
gist. Observe, Elizabeth, throughout this entire ordeal. She's waif ish. She's quiet. She doesn't have the dynamism that her mother of Gwen had. So to answer you question more specifically, quite frankly, I think there's something very dysfunctional and very sickly going on with this young lady. First of all, she's almost skinnier and emaciated more than her mother.
00:24:47:20 - 00:25:01:14
Dr. John
And that's it's a hard, hard thing to say because her mother was so, you know, stiff. Like, I loved your mama up come commentary, by the way, it's such an accurate description of these people. But I think what's going.
00:25:01:14 - 00:25:03:12
Stacey/Dori
On for me of waifs, army of waifs.
00:25:03:12 - 00:25:34:02
Dr. John
I mean waifs. I like that too, that zombie waifs. But to wrap up, what I'm talking about with, with Elizabeth here, I think, I don't think she has the mental or physical wellness to be the type of leader that her mother was, you know, and so going with the stick figure, analogy here, she's like the stick figure leader of the church, the, you know.
00:25:34:05 - 00:25:35:04
Dr. John
Right. Who leader.
00:25:35:04 - 00:25:56:18
Stacey/Dori
Yeah. Well, they they have all those people on the board. You know, they have like 25, 30 people on the board. My this is my opinion based on what you just said, John. And just thinking about this, I believe that she's not coming in because she's not she's not dealing with it. I think she's making calls and making statements and I.
00:25:56:18 - 00:26:10:23
Dr. John
Think I don't I don't even think she has the mental or physical right energy. I don't think she's she's well enough to be, take an active role, except for, an image, you know?
00:26:10:23 - 00:26:12:13
Stacey/Dori
but a lot of people,
00:26:12:13 - 00:26:39:12
Stacey/Dori
depend on her because of money, that their jobs depend on a leader to continue to. And, you know, I'm sure all of, the Stacy and I especially watched all of these and listened to all of these documentaries that there's always somebody who pops up if the leader goes to jail or if they die, the original leader goes to jail or if they die.
00:26:39:14 - 00:27:07:03
Stacey/Dori
Yeah, but there's always somebody to step up. Elizabeth may be a reluctant leader of this church, but also. And Doctor John, I'm sure you can speak about this, but the brainwashing, especially with the kids, is probably so prevalent that Elizabeth may not even see that there is any other choice she has to keep going, right? I think there's just no other choice.
00:27:07:03 - 00:27:37:00
Dr. John
Oh yeah. I think there's two things I want to comment on what you're saying, Dory. One is the one of the foundation characteristics of cults is a charismatic leader, and they need a charismatic leader. And we see and our audience will see in future episodes. All of these things always have a a charismatic leader. Here it was Gwen.
00:27:37:02 - 00:27:57:20
Dr. John
And you're right, it might be symbolically Elizabeth now. But they they need a deity. They need someone that, you know, is is, you know, calling the shots. Somebody speak and has that has the truth as the truth. But you also bring up this whole child child rearing thing and the kids.
00:27:57:22 - 00:27:58:18
Stacey/Dori
Yeah.
00:27:58:20 - 00:28:22:21
Dr. John
And we've we see this in a number of cults. We're going to analyze in this program. And you have to understand about kids. And this is a very important point for our whole audience, especially parents out there, is that as as kids develop, you have to understand that their whole world is the parents for a long period of time in their development.
00:28:23:02 - 00:28:52:03
Dr. John
Everything is the parents, you know it. It's not, SpongeBob, etc. parents are so powerful in a kid's life that they're literally absorbing how to be a human being from their parents. So these kids that were born into this cult, the Gwen Shamblin cult book, I'm going to call it, they don't know any better. All they see is this is the way you are as an adult.
00:28:52:03 - 00:28:59:24
Dr. John
Is he being right even more than as an adult? As a human being? This is what a human being does, you know and believes in this.
00:29:00:01 - 00:29:18:17
Stacey/Dori
Fear of your parents too. Like your you're also, you know, like parents are the discipline. Yeah. You fear your parents too. So as a kid, I mean, even just like I was a regular kid, like I was always like, oh, I don't want to do anything to upset my parents.
00:29:18:19 - 00:29:48:13
Dr. John
Right. Exactly right. And I think we have to underline for our listeners that this case where, first of all, the cult believed in strict discipline, including corporal punishment with kids hitting them and, Through to the point where this poor couple was so caught up in things that they beat their, their son who was challenged, it was a challenge.
00:29:48:15 - 00:30:12:19
Dr. John
And boy and they beat him so bad that he died. And these two parents were convicted and they believe they, as I recall, they have life sentences, for the third child. I mean, that that really needs to be underlined here in this story, a child from being beaten because these people were following the rules of the church.
00:30:12:20 - 00:30:17:08
Stacey/Dori
Yeah. And they left in a room, for days with just a Bible, you know.
00:30:17:08 - 00:30:45:23
Unknown
At this time, Matt and Atlanta, Sonya and I, you have four children. Go ahead. Sonya. Well, first, I wanted to thank you last week. My seven year old. He was going through some changes. He was very disruptive. I did exactly what has helped me to do to, thank him on the back of his thighs.
00:30:46:00 - 00:31:11:09
Unknown
Take everything out of this room and lock him in there from that Friday until Monday. And only left him in the room with his Bible. And, I just praise God. And that's just from obeying, setting those boundaries, making it clear. And just following God's lead. And so people need to know there's hope, and that's miracle.
00:31:11:11 - 00:31:18:05
Unknown
You've got a child that's going from just bizarre or down to in control. So praise God.
00:31:20:23 - 00:31:46:24
Stacey/Dori
So, you know, while you were talking, it just brought up a thing for me. Do you think that Gwen believed what she was saying? Or do you think it was an act that maybe it started off as an act, but do you think it was really subconsciously her beliefs coming out, or was it a way to get money?
00:31:47:01 - 00:31:50:06
Stacey/Dori
You know, which one? Or is it both?
00:31:50:08 - 00:32:13:03
Dr. John
The. I think you just said the answer right there. It was both. But the both evolved. I do think that this Gwen Shamblin at the beginning of the start of this whole thing, yeah, really believed in what she was saying. And I think there's almost like an or whoa moment, like, wow, I can get up.
00:32:13:03 - 00:32:14:04
Stacey/Dori
This is working.
00:32:14:06 - 00:32:15:02
Dr. John
Yeah. It's. Yeah.
00:32:15:06 - 00:32:16:12
Stacey/Dori
Right. Yeah.
00:32:16:14 - 00:32:47:21
Dr. John
And certainly she got caught up in not only is it working, but I'm getting, you know, exceptionally rich, exceptionally rich by exposing this and having these followers. So I think that I think that came later but certainly fueled this, cult, from the beginning. But I think it started out with she believed this. And which brings me to a comment.
00:32:47:21 - 00:33:11:15
Dr. John
It's maybe a little catty of a comment, but, you know, these are not bright people. You know? Gwen. Now, Joel, Laura, as you outline Stacy in your your recap, you know, these are not people that are smart, you know, and and and Joel, Laura, why is this plain without any experience? It's a it's a jet plane, by the way.
00:33:11:15 - 00:33:25:20
Dr. John
Everyone you know, it's not a paper club. You know, then I hear is kind of more simplistic. Define. You know what? What in what sense does this guy's take control? Ego Lane. Yeah, yeah.
00:33:25:20 - 00:33:29:04
Stacey/Dori
It's ego. It's entitlement. It's arrogance.
00:33:29:06 - 00:33:30:00
Dr. John
And stupid.
00:33:30:00 - 00:33:31:05
Stacey/Dori
Stupid. Yeah,
00:33:31:05 - 00:33:40:06
Stacey/Dori
You know, that that narcissism and that ego really, I think, fueled the whole thing, the whole episode in general.
00:33:40:08 - 00:34:01:21
Dr. John
But again, I want to emphasize this. Yeah, kind of, ignorance of, of these people. And we're going to see in a lot of the episodes we talk about a, there's a, there's a baseline of, of just ignorance, you know, that's going on here, but but people, people, you know, you're giving people something that they want, they're giving that.
00:34:01:21 - 00:34:03:10
Dr. John
You're giving them answers.
00:34:03:10 - 00:34:12:21
Dr. John
You want to raise your kids. Well, you know, you beat them. You know, there's your answer. You know, you beat them to submission and, you know, have them read the Bible. You know,
00:34:13:05 - 00:34:40:15
Stacey/Dori
I've said this before, but, you know, there is no major about how to be a cult leader. You don't go to school to become a cult leader. No, but you find that it is a lot about ego, I believe. Yeah. Where you start, maybe with good intentions. And then you see that a group of people are following and hanging on every single word that you say.
00:34:40:17 - 00:35:05:11
Stacey/Dori
I can make money doing this. I have an ego when all these people are now following me and I am going to continue to do this forever. You know, there is no stopping because there's also the fact too, that a lot of the churches are not taxed either. So there's like the financial side of it too.
00:35:05:13 - 00:35:26:06
Stacey/Dori
But I think I'm I'm really curious about the fact that since this documentary has come out, remnant still has a ton of people's followers. As I like to say. Still in the church. How is that? How is that possible, John?
00:35:26:12 - 00:35:51:14
Dr. John
Yeah, well, here's something that we have to open up to admit, which is that these cults give people what they want. And in this case, it's who doesn't want to, you know, lose weight. You know, I don't even want to say be fit because, you know, that wasn't really one of their messages was just be skinny and go to yeah, go to heaven.
00:35:51:14 - 00:35:51:19
Dr. John
And they.
00:35:51:19 - 00:35:57:05
Stacey/Dori
Drank. They drank a lot of alcohol too. Yeah. It wasn't like they were being. Yeah. Look at your.
00:35:57:06 - 00:36:10:04
Dr. John
Look at the gifts that they, they propose to give people. You're going to be skinny, which is, you know, especially in the US here is a, you know, very desirable thing. You're going to go to heaven.
00:36:10:06 - 00:36:12:06
Stacey/Dori
Big deal and make big ticket.
00:36:12:06 - 00:36:33:21
Dr. John
And his parents you're going to learn how to race. We're going to give you the rules to raise kids. You know one of the things I fell in, especially in parenting speeches and things I give you know, I say nobody gives us a handbook on how to raise a child. And but Gwen and her, you know, evil people are saying, this is what you do.
00:36:33:23 - 00:36:57:06
Dr. John
Beat them into submission and give them the Bible, you know, and you're going to have a good kid. So you're hitting people, especially, aspects of life that they're very frustrated with. And, and they're, it's that they're difficult or traumatic. You know, our bodies. And is there an afterlife in heaven and how do we raise our kids,
00:36:57:16 - 00:37:19:18
Stacey/Dori
Yeah. And the child rearing thing, it's interesting I'm not sure why they think that these things are going to make kids confident not angry, not narcissistic, not sociopathic, not psychopathic. I mean, when we look at these true crimes, which we're going to be going into later,
00:37:19:18 - 00:37:34:00
Stacey/Dori
the way the children are raised when they become psychopaths, let's just say somebody like a mass murderer, they're raised by a mother who's controlling or who says they hate women or, or the women are the devil or women are demons.
00:37:34:02 - 00:37:44:24
Stacey/Dori
And that sort of builds this crazy persona. And how do these I mean, all of these people are beating their kids. Is that what's how does it how does that happen?
00:37:45:05 - 00:37:54:08
Dr. John
It goes back to what I keep saying here is that there's this thread of ignorance. Maybe it's not a thread, it's a rope. It's a chain.
00:37:54:08 - 00:37:55:24
Stacey/Dori
Yeah, a giant thread.
00:37:56:00 - 00:38:03:00
Dr. John
You know, it's it's. Yeah. Pervades that kind of a child rearing is Neanderthal.
00:38:03:02 - 00:38:04:11
Stacey/Dori
Yeah. That's what it is.
00:38:04:13 - 00:38:25:05
Dr. John
Hundreds of years of just, you know, we treat kids like they're, they're little objects or like, we know so much more of how to raise children. But these people don't use any of the, you know, principles and science we have in this field of how to properly raise a child instead of just being them, you know. Well, this was.
00:38:25:05 - 00:38:25:19
Stacey/Dori
Right.
00:38:25:21 - 00:38:45:17
Dr. John
Ten generations ago. We used to do it with kids and, you know. Right. Tough guy. And and tough mom parenting. Well, we know better now. So there's. Yeah. Go back to that ignorance. You know there's no which was is a fundamental aspect of this whole thing is there's no credentials here.
00:38:45:17 - 00:38:47:14
Stacey/Dori
There's no really no credentials.
00:38:47:16 - 00:38:57:01
Dr. John
Foundation of all facts or any. It's to their beliefs. It's just, you know, we make it up as we go, you know, and.
00:38:57:03 - 00:39:31:21
Stacey/Dori
There's a lot of hypocrisy. There's a lot of always do. There's always. Right. Stacey? Yes. Always in, in life with these specific cults, it's don't do as I do. Do as I say. Right. And it really bothers me. And also the fact that there is, there's like with, with children, with women. This obviously goes along with the, the church and what it's based on.
00:39:31:22 - 00:40:09:04
Stacey/Dori
There's just no empathy. It is about empathy. Thinking about yourself. I don't even I didn't even get from the documentary that, the Gwen Shamblin like, truly cared about anybody else. But when Shamblin and that is. And Doctor John, you can, you know, back me up or not back me up. But I do believe that a lot of these people are really, truly once they get that hint of that, oh, I can rule once they get that hint of it, there is no other thought of others.
00:40:09:09 - 00:40:43:02
Stacey/Dori
They may not think that they're helping others, but they the way that they do it, the it it's absurd. I that that is such a great like the last me feel icky. It's the lack of compassion, the lack of empathy and talk about Jesus. By the way, Jesus, I mean all of this bullshit that she's selling and give it and you know, this kind of grifter hocking this crap, you know, is the kind of stuff that Jesus was against.
00:40:43:02 - 00:41:08:20
Stacey/Dori
You know, he flipped over the tables in the temple, ask a Jew if she knows about Jesus, and I do. I'm going to ask you, Stacy. You're it. Yeah. I mean, no, I'm a yes. So. But this is all nothing that Jesus taught is is even part of these of these religious, these fundamentalist right religious things and, you know, as John said, she had no, like, ministry training.
00:41:08:23 - 00:41:28:06
Stacey/Dori
She, she created the way down workshop. Brilliant idea. Using God. You don't have to you can justify it. It's completely justifiable. So using God, she created this thing based on her nutrition experience, which none of it was nutrition. So, you know, I,
00:41:28:06 - 00:41:36:08
Stacey/Dori
I think promoting eating disorders in, in all of these people and promoting child abuse in these people,
00:41:36:08 - 00:41:38:05
Stacey/Dori
how does anybody wake up?
00:41:38:09 - 00:41:41:06
Stacey/Dori
How do they wake up? How did they get out?
00:41:41:09 - 00:41:50:05
Dr. John
Let me comment first on what you both are talking about is, you know, the classic power dynamic. And it goes back to some fundamental,
00:41:50:05 - 00:42:06:14
Dr. John
brain that reinforcement, you know, the more you get power, more you know, you're going to, you know, use it, you probably inappropriately. And power just begets. Power just begets. Yep. You know, power.
00:42:06:15 - 00:42:07:00
Stacey/Dori
Yep.
00:42:07:00 - 00:42:38:15
Dr. John
Yeah. Now you you ask, you know, I think an extremely important question for us in our audience, which is how do people get out and what should you look for in, these things? And let's, let's go with what you look for. I mean, as we're trying to point out in this, this episode here, you look for the ridiculousness in the stupidity of this, you know, look at the the evolution of this woman.
00:42:38:15 - 00:43:01:02
Dr. John
And like we talk about and again, we invite the audience to take a look at this, documentary so you can see what we're talking about in the, in terms of the appearance of Gwen and how crazy it looks. And this Joel, Laura, which she marries, who almost like, a Wayne Newton clone with all the plastic surgery and makeup.
00:43:01:04 - 00:43:04:05
Stacey/Dori
His. He's like, he's like, in formaldehyde or something.
00:43:04:05 - 00:43:05:22
Dr. John
Yeah, exactly.
00:43:05:24 - 00:43:08:04
Stacey/Dori
Preserved.
00:43:08:06 - 00:43:19:12
Dr. John
Look at the people that you're following, I mean. Right, well, this would, you know, sit down with, dinner with or invite into your home and although a lot of people in, you know.
00:43:19:14 - 00:43:45:05
Stacey/Dori
Every single cult leader or person in a commercial cult, whether it's a commercial cult or, or this kind of a religious cult or a yoga cult or all these cults, it's the same exact formula. The person in charge doesn't really have in, in my opinion, in tell Me if this they don't really have true knowledge, they're going with something and they're building it and then building it, and then they're reinforcing it and keeping.
00:43:45:05 - 00:44:07:19
Dr. John
It and no social awareness, you know, it's like, right, do they look in the mirror and see, you know, that is this really what people look like? So, so the message to people are you look at what you're involved in, look behind the curtain, so to speak, and also do some research. Look up some facts of what they're spouting.
00:44:07:19 - 00:44:11:06
Dr. John
Is this based on anything that makes any sense?
00:44:11:10 - 00:44:34:00
Dr. John
Let's face it, people want the Guideposts, the rules of how to live. Because we're not we're not given that, you know, we're not born with an instruction manual, you know, and like like Dorie said earlier, even even these cult leaders, nobody gives them a, you know, there's no cult leader school, right? That could be an interesting little spin off for us.
00:44:34:00 - 00:44:35:01
Dr. John
Right? We can develop.
00:44:35:05 - 00:44:38:17
Stacey/Dori
That's our next podcast, right? We're creating. We're creating.
00:44:38:18 - 00:44:41:14
Dr. John
Let's get a curriculum together.
00:44:41:16 - 00:44:43:02
Stacey/Dori
Oh, we could totally have a cult.
00:44:43:05 - 00:44:43:21
Dr. John
Yeah, yeah.
00:44:43:21 - 00:44:59:24
Stacey/Dori
Well, you know, the thing is, we're too smart for it. You know, like you said, it's this. It's just. Just, like riding on ignorance. And if you look at any cult leader, it seems like they've made it up as they go along. They make up their own rules because it's a religious thing. You can make up your own rules.
00:44:59:24 - 00:45:15:08
Stacey/Dori
Jesus said this. Jesus said that I'm doing this because I'm the conduit to Jesus. I am between you and Jesus, in this religion. And I DLP for example, you, the only the man can talk to the spiritual leader who talks to God. There's a hierarchy. Women are not.
00:45:15:08 - 00:45:20:04
Dr. John
Allowed. We didn't even talk about how women were treated in this way. Women.
00:45:20:04 - 00:45:20:13
Stacey/Dori
Yeah.
00:45:20:16 - 00:45:21:06
Dr. John
And so.
00:45:21:06 - 00:45:21:24
Stacey/Dori
The women.
00:45:22:02 - 00:45:36:16
Dr. John
It's the church we're in. So 300 years ago, you know, women have no voice. They're just obedient. They do what we say. You marry who we say you have, you know, 16 kids, you know, whatever.
00:45:36:18 - 00:45:57:09
Stacey/Dori
And and the people below her, you know, the Gwen is the rich one. She's that she's the top of the pyramid. The people below her don't have the means to do things the way she can. So I always think it's interesting. These cult leaders want all their followers to do all these things. They don't have the money. They don't have the they don't have the tools that the people with the money have.
00:45:57:15 - 00:46:12:19
Stacey/Dori
So I think it is very dangerous to tell. That's a case in point. The kid who passed away that was locked in is in the room with the Bible. I mean, they didn't have any education. They didn't have any background.
00:46:12:19 - 00:46:15:03
00:46:15:03 - 00:46:25:18
Stacey/Dori
do we have any concluding thoughts about this before we wrap? Well, what I liked, what I liked about this is Doctor John did talk about kind of like trying to get out of it.
00:46:25:18 - 00:46:50:02
Stacey/Dori
I think that that was a good, trying to get out of the cult. I do think that we went over, a lot of the highlights of this documentary. But again, watch the way down it's way. Why not? Like Stacy said, the plane going down the way or for way to w e I g h in case you want to buy the book.
00:46:50:04 - 00:47:17:08
Stacey/Dori
Yes. So watch the way down. And then also like Doctor John said after you then come back and listen to us again, listen to this episode again, and then maybe you can form your own thoughts to, but you can, you can visit us. We have a lot of information and you can subscribe to pod Candy podcast.
00:47:17:08 - 00:47:18:22
Stacey/Dori
Dot com
00:47:18:22 - 00:47:24:08
Stacey/Dori
new episodes will be coming on various, other cult,
00:47:24:08 - 00:47:38:21
Stacey/Dori
documentaries, podcast, mid-level marketing, true crime. Stacy and I love it all. Doctor John is the one to really put the professionalism in the pod candies. So thank you for that.
00:47:38:23 - 00:47:48:11
Stacey/Dori
And that's kind of it. Right. Like this was. Yeah, I enjoy it. It's just really fun. Again, Glenn Shamblin, the way down, HBO Max.
00:47:48:11 - 00:47:51:10
Dr. John
I can't wait to be asked back, so thank you.
00:47:51:12 - 00:47:55:17
Stacey/Dori
Oh, we will. Dori and I will talk and decide whether or not we want to have you back.
00:47:55:17 - 00:48:00:21
Stacey/Dori
I'm already a hard. Oh, you're hard now. There. I'm hard. It's a hard no, John. Sorry.
00:48:00:23 - 00:48:02:10
Dr. John
All righty.
00:48:02:12 - 00:48:03:23
Stacey/Dori
Thank you. Thank you everybody.
00:48:03:23 - 00:48:06:03
00:48:06:08 - 00:48:07:21
Stacey
00:48:07:21 - 00:48:09:07
Stacey
Candy.