Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field. This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have that these lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
I have Helen Peacher today, someone
I've known for a long time, and
whose work I've much admired.
She runs the groundbreaking, we could say
record-setting Liskinnet Farm in County
Limerick, just on the border of Limerick
and Cork in Ireland, which I would say
has really provided the cutting edge
for the best practice in equine-assisted
therapies for probably the last 15 years.
And it was started, as you know, by
our mutual dear friend, David Doyle,
and you have stepped into his shoes.
Yes, I have.
Which are, it's like stepping
into the shoes of giants.
But you've been working there for years,
and if anyone can run it, well, it's
you, and you've obviously been proving
yourself very well the last two years.
So Helen Peacher welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
Can you tell us who you are,
how you got started with this?
What is Liskinnet?
Why do you do it?
Helen Picha: So, Liskinane Equine Centre
is, as you said Granagh, County Limerick.
It's on the borders of Cork and Limerick.
It s- it opened in 2015.
I live literally five or six minutes
drive from it, and I heard about this.
Actually, I heard there was this horse
whisperer one day over in this place in
Granagh, which turned out to be you after.
So you had made your first visit
there before I had heard anything
about Liskinane Equine Centre.
It had already started, and the
building was already in process
even before I heard about it.
I was driving past along the road
one day, and I saw these two or
three little ponies in the field,
and I says, "Hmm, what's this place?"
So I kind of inquired about it anyway,
and I was told there was going to be
this equine-assisted for children and
adults with autism and intellectual
disability, and I was interested.
I said, "How could I get back into
horses in a different way from what I
used to be doing in the racing circuit?"
So I was informed anyway I had
to contact this man called David
Doyle, and that there was something
on in the hall in Granagh.
There was a fundraiser for the
cycling that went on, and I was
told to, "Go over there now, and
you'll meet him there," which I did.
So I went in anyway and there was a
big crowd there, and I was pointed
out to this man, David Doyle.
So I went over and introduced myself.
Didn't say anything about what
I, my background was or anything.
Just said I was very interested in
working in Liskinane Equine Centre,
and didn't know what to make of him.
He was very quiet.
And, He's a quiet man, yes ⦠yeah,
he was very quiet and summing me
up, kind of, and he said "Yeah, you
should volunteer now first, and we'll
take it from there, and there will
be job opportunities down the line."
And I says, "Okay, I'll do that."
So I went away, got on to St.
Joseph's, filled up my volunteering forms.
That time it used to take about six months
for your Garda vetting to come through,
so it eventually came through anyway.
And to make a long story short
it was just in the process.
There was a couple of ponies there,
and it was just in the process
of getting developed in 2015.
And Garda vetting came through, so I
went in and I volunteered every Friday
for a year while this was in process.
I remember meeting you in one of those
when you came over, and I, that's the
first time I met you, and I was still a
volunteer the first time I met you there.
And it just kind of went from there.
Went every Friday.
So I, I came in with good
experience on the equine side but
very little on the autistic side.
So I used my every Fridays to learn and
develop and started got my job opportunity
then at the very start, which I did.
Started three days a week and
developed to, within three
months I went to supervisor.
So I was under David then for 11
years before the management position
came up, and then I went for
that, and here I am two years on.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, let's talk a little
about what Liskinah is and how it, how it
evolved, 'cause it, it's a magical place.
Helen Picha: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and I think anyone
who is involved in the equine-assisted
world needs to know about it-
Mm ⦠and needs to know about,
as you say, the quiet, unassuming,
but immensely powerful David Doyle.
Wonderful.
I'll just give a little background.
I was in Limerick, Ireland in 2012
doing a demo of Horse Boy method, and
this is actually a rather sad story,
but one could argue that Liskinah owes
its life really, and anything Horse
Boy and other types of equine-assisted
in Ireland owe a great debt to a
young lady called Shelley Murtagh, who
organized this demo in Limerick in 2012.
She had been a working student
with us in Texas, and she was
one of the best we ever had.
And organized this demo
when she went home.
We were in the UK at the
time, so great, we did it.
And then she came out again to Texas,
and she came with her mother, which
we thought, "This is odd," you know?
"I wonder why."
And m- for much shorter this time, okay,
but she was by now a friend, so sure
And something had changed, and we were
trying to puzzle it out, and three months
later she was dead of a brain tumor.
And we realized, oh my gosh, she
had wanted to bring her mother
out to this place that she
had, you know, found happiness.
And how tragic, you know.
But at the same time we were
glad that we could do that.
Three years later, I get an email from
this man, David Doyle, who says, "I was
at that demo that that young lady, Shelley
Murtagh, organized in, in Limerick.
You won't remember me.
You won't remember me, but I've
taken your website, the Horse Boy
website, and to the Irish Parliament
and to a local philanthropist.
And anyway, we've raised three
million euros, and we're putting
in a state-of-the-art center.
Would you like to come and see it?"
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And I'm like, well,
I don't get emails like that very
often, so I was like, "Well, sh-
yes, I, you know, I would indeed, Mr.
Doyle."
And so of course I did, and came
and saw Liskinane, which is a, what?
80-acre old stud farm which had been
burned down in the Irish Troubles-
Mm ⦠and has now been resurrected as
a partly residential, partly day center
doing equine and other services for
people with all sorts of neurodiversity.
And David explained to me whoâ¦
David is also a, you know, a, as you know,
a, a wonderful old-school Irish horseman.
But he also explained to me, "Rupert the
reason I'm doing this is because I, like
you, have a, a, an autistic daughter
who, Caroline, who had this wonderful
reaction to a horse," the amazing cob
lady who is still there, I believe.
Yeah.
And you know, "So that's why I
thought it might be a good idea."
And he put this thing into place
with a vision, as you know, step in,
step down, step out, which- Mm-hmm
meaning that people who- are, are sort
of unable to stay at home, perhaps
they're violent now, perhaps it's just
too complex, perhaps the family can't
cope, ca- they can come and have their
own apartment, and then that lasts for
a certain time, and then they go to a
more supported group environment, and
then they go back to their own home,
and then they can cycle through again.
And this way, it gives a lot more
opportunities, but it also gives
a lot more dignity and doesn't
separate families and so on.
I thought this was a,
a groundbreaking idea.
And so I was deeply impressed, and I
met you, you know, very much in those
early days and saw you really help to
build that place up from scratch with
this, again, this kind of deep old-school
Irish, you know, County Limerick, county
court horse, horse knowledge, which
is there in those parts of Ireland and
marrying that up with a very new approach
to what horses could do for people.
So can you tell us, t-
take us through the story.
Like, w- in those early days at Liskinane,
when you were first learning how, what
was this whole autism thing anyway?
Take, t- talk us through this, this
version of yourself, you know, 13 years
ago where you're sort of- Yeah ⦠you
know, trying to make sense of it all.
Helen Picha: Mm.
So I remember when I came in there,
so if you're coming from a racing
background, which is all very fast
and, you know, you know there's just
one way you learn everything, how
to get the horse to the racetrack.
So I came in here, but we'll just say
from my own mind of it, I always had a
a knowledge as to what it was like as
a parent of a child with a disability.
Okay.
Because when I, when I was 20 years old,
I had a little girl called Danielle born
with spina bifida and hydrocephalus.
Okay.
And she lived el- she lived 11 months.
So from that young age, like the seed was
planted in me without even knowing it.
I was a parent of a
child with a disability.
Got it.
So I, I had the knowledge of what
it felt like to be a parent with a
child that's so helpless, so how you'd
have to trust anyone that you give
your child to what happens to your
child when you're no longer there.
So even though my daughter lived
11 months, I had this 11 months of
learning this knowledge- Without,
without ever even realizing I
would be working in this industry.
So we'll say I went from there at the
age of 20, she died when I was 21,
so I kind of dived into training my
racehorses, which is what I was brought
up in from my father and his family.
So, but years went on then and my
life changed and things changed
around, and I ended up moving from
Cork down to Limerick, where I
am, literally five minutes away
from the Skinagh Equine Centre.
So all this is developing down
through the years, and here
I am end, ending up here now.
So we'll say I went in there
and everything slowed down then.
We'll say you're coming from this
fast pace, and I was very interested
when I met you about the training of
the horse for the Horse Boy method.
I was so interested in how to train a
horse in a different way from winning
a race off the field to doing all this
discipline, so that really caught my eye.
So when I was volunteering every Friday,
that's when I met the families coming in.
That's where we'll say then I met David
Doyle at the start, and so he would tell
me his vision for what was happening.
So I was delighted to learn as I was going
all the way from the start and understand
the vision, what was the aim we were
looking for So, and then when I started
working with the families and my first
little boy, he's actually still there.
Dara is his name, from he was 14
when I started with him, and I've
worked with him all the way up
through, and he's in his 20s now.
And it's just great to see how much
he loves it, the passion for it.
He learned how to ride
independently for a finish.
And, you know, the satisfaction
you would get from working
with any child, it's, it's just
there's no money can pay for this.
Like, it's just you have to have
this passion inside of you to help
all these people and these families.
And I feel, you know, thank
God I, I was given this and all
the staff that's over there.
It's just, it's, it's undescribable
how good it makes you feel.
Like we say, we have three
sections in Liskinnock.
We have the residential, the day
services, and the equine center,
and they're all interlinked.
Then every Saturday,
we've open family days.
Now, these are horrendously busy,
but they are extremely rewarding.
I don't know
Rupert Isaacson: how you do those.
Can you-
Helen Picha: Yeah.
They are really-
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Helen Picha: Let, de-
Rupert Isaacson: describe in detail how
those work, because I think people will
have trouble believing that you guys- Yeah
can actually deliver a service like this.
Helen Picha: But they are f- they are
very, you know, you would do up to
30,000 or 40,000 steps in the day.
We have no, we don't know how
many's coming in because we
leave it open without a booking.
We've bookings Monday to Friday, but
Saturdays it is a completely open day.
So if somebody sends me an
email or a phone call, "How
do I get into Liskinnock?"
Your first entrance into Liskinnock with
a, with a child is to come on a Saturday.
So we're open from half past
9:00 in the morning straight
through to half past 3:00.
No booking required, no fee attached.
You just come along in with your family.
If you're a new family on the day,
we'll give you a consent form.
We'll meet you, greet you, show you
around grounds, and not rushing the child.
Some child will fly down and
they'll be mad to get on the horse.
Others are quite slower, and
we say, "Take your time."
We'll show them around.
We've a beautiful playground.
We have a lovely sensory room.
We have a big indoor arena now
that we have stage music on
that pictures on the walls.
I developed a beautiful movement
to method room just off of that.
You go up the stairs,
there's lovely low lighting.
We have the speaker Alexa on there.
So if no matter what song the
child wants to put on, they'll
ask Alexa and she will put it on.
So that's there as well.
So they have lots to do before they
even get out to ride a horse, or
they can, you know, go vice versa.
And when they get on the horse, then we
take them off around our sensory trail.
They'll be on 30 to 35 minutes with a
group of about 10 or 11 go out together.
But the siblings can
also ride on a Saturday.
The parents can ride on
a Saturday if they want.
So we can take them out
as a group, as a family.
So it's something they can do
together as a family, you know?
And it's a lot, for a lot of the families,
it's the only thing they can do together.
So if
Rupert Isaacson: a, if a family
comes out on this open day and- Yeah
⦠you're, you're turning nobody away.
We turn nobody away.
Give us an idea of numbers.
How-
Helen Picha: I think I- How
Rupert Isaacson: many
people are we talking?
Yeah.
Helen Picha: We're talking
between 80 and 100 children- Wow
will ride on those days.
Rupert Isaacson: Incredible.
Helen Picha: Yeah, it's incredible.
But, you know, at least, like as I
said, I was there from the start of it.
I remember the first Saturday we might've
had 30 people, and then it just kept
growing and growing and growing now.
So at the same, we'll say last
Christmas would've been the first
Christmas I did as a manager of it.
So this time we turned our indoor
arena, which you know, into a
big, huge, magical wonderland.
All lighting, Christmas trees.
We have outside portable stables, so we
turned two of them, one into Santa Claus's
little room and the other one into Mrs.
Claus' room.
But again, and I think this is very
important for people to know when you are
doing big events like this for children
with autism or intellectual disability,
again, we did no booking system.
Because before it was done
with a booking system.
So if your child was booked in for 11:00
to see Santy and they had a meltdown
at 10, they're going to miss it.
Yeah.
So we said, "No booking system.
Keep it open."
300 children went horse riding and
saw Santy at our last Christmas.
It was absolutely wonderful, and
they c- they're looking forward
to th- this Christmas already,
which is on the 12th of December.
And it was the best day ever, and
they still all got their horse
ride, and we had the carriage going.
And a lot of these children, they
can't go to Santy in the normal,
like in Doolin Shopping Center.
It has to be open.
There was loads of room for them to
run around, go out and play in the
playground, whatever they want to do.
And not one child had a meltdown.
It was just a brilliant, brilliant day.
We had loads of stalls up along the
side of local people around selling
their little bits and things, but it
just put a lovely atmosphere in there,
all very casual, and went off great.
So I'm looking forward to
this one again already.
But that's very important.
No booking system.
Don't put people down to a time.
You know- Keep it open as
mu- as much as you can.
Rupert Isaacson: One of the things
which always impresses me, I,
I've come out to Liskin, as you
know, many times over the years.
Mm.
I'll be there again this coming September.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Is the volume of kids-
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm
Rupert Isaacson: and families that
you guys serve, it's enormous.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And not just on these d-
open days, but sort of through the week.
I'm, I'm always astonished at the
stamina- Yeah ⦠of the staff.
But the other thing that always strikes
me is the enthusiasm of the horses.
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: The, the horses
never, are never sour.
They're always up for it.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And I haven't, I mean,
obviously we know people have their ups
and downs, but I've never seen the staff
with anything other than- enthusiasm
and purpose and drive despite these
very long hours, and often in, you know,
appalling- Yeah ⦠weather conditions.
Because-
Helen Picha: Your te- yeah
Rupert Isaacson: wh- wh- why,
what's the secret there at Liskin?
It, why are the horses so happy?
Why are the people so
Helen Picha: Well, we say our, our
environment is beautiful there.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Helen Picha: We've a lovely environment.
We've 23 horses there at the moment now.
Seven of those are racehorses.
Well, you know, it's very important
that we rotate them around.
You can't just use the same ones
for the whole long day every day.
So we, you know, we have a program
where we're rotating our horses.
That's very important.
They're also you know, they do their,
they're in hand and they're, we have all
their backs built up and they're strong.
They're looked after,
they're fed properly.
They're out in their own
little herds, we'll say.
The racehorses have their own
paddock, so they're out together.
You know, they're, they're
out with their friends.
We have background music on all the time.
I think it's very important
for animals as well.
Mm-hmm.
They have to have a nice background.
And they're just happy horses
because we look after them well.
Yeah, you- That's very important.
The staff, it's the same with the staff.
I had to build up a new team
of staff two years ago, and I'm
delighted to say I, I have the best
staff in Ireland, I would imagine.
Mm-hmm.
I have a mixture of men and women.
They are s- when I was interviewing
them, I felt it very important that
I felt a passion off of them as well.
You know, you have to have passionate
people working with children with
disability, and they have not, you
know, you can't be afraid of work.
Yeah.
This is hard work.
You know, it's mentally and physically
hard taking out children on a horse
because you're watching both the
horse and the child, and you have
to have people that love their job.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Helen Picha: You know- You know, it's
Rupert Isaacson: very important.
I, I think there's a couple
of real key things there.
You talk about the beauty of the
environment and- Yes ⦠so I'm just
gonna paint a picture for people
who are, are listening and watching.
So when the, Helen was talking about
a, a covered arena, but guess what?
They don't ride in it.
In fact, that whole arena was turned over
a few years ago- Yeah, mm-hmm ⦠into a
huge open play space and concert space.
Mm-hmm.
Because guess what?
They, David found, and I think you found
too, that the kids wanted to be outside.
Helen Picha: Yeah, they
were bored inside there.
There w- It was boring to
ride a horse in there, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
So there is this long track
that I would say is what?
Two, possibly three kilometers.
Helen Picha: Yeah, two kilometers, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And as you say, some
of it is a sensory trail, some of it
is just beautifully landscaped, some
of it is through, is open fields.
Yeah.
Some of it is, you know,
goes uphill and over banks.
Helen Picha: Yep,
Rupert Isaacson: You know, there's-
That's it ⦠all sorts of mixed terrain.
And you're doing a lot of
this work in long reins.
Yeah.
So horses are getting their backs built
up- Mm-hmm ⦠as you're working, which
is- Yeah ⦠or you're working at the
shoulder, Yeah ⦠you know, s- in
hand as the horses are going forward.
So again, their backs are being built up.
So horses are not being broken down,
they're being built up, and they're
going out with their friends into
this really beautiful environment.
And then of course over the
road you've got this mountain.
Helen Picha: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: And-
Helen Picha: A key change of scenery
when you go there, don't you?
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
And that's wild and forested,
and then you get up- Yeah
on top of that mountain
and you see, you know, two-
Helen Picha: Yeah, everything.
Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: Killarney on one,
so Kerry on one side, and then, you
know- Yeah ⦠across to the north
and the east on another side, and
it, Ireland's laid out before you.
And I do know that obviously not
everyone can work in an environment that
is that beautiful or that inspiring.
But it does really seem to
prove that nature is always what's going
to do- Yeah ⦠60% of the work for you-
It is, yeah ⦠sort of t- t- type thing.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
You're, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: When you're when
you're going out with the kids on, up
on that mountain, it's quite a wild
environment, and it's, you know, a lot
of people would look at it and go, "Oh
my gosh, it's really uncontrolled."
You've A, first you cross this road
to get there, and then B, you go up
through these tracks and through these
gates, and you know, what happens if
someone, something happens up there?
It's so, so much of the way therapeutic
riding is often taught to people, it's
all about control, control, control.
And-
I always feel that the best safety
is in good preparation, good
preparation of your horse, good
preparation of your staff, good
preparation of your trails, et cetera.
But talk us through, when you go up on
that mountain, how do you choreograph
that experience so that it feels wild
and wonderful to the people going up,
but you, in fact, can keep that safe
and on point for also the therapeutic
aspects you, you need to deliver?
Helen Picha: Like as you said, you have
to be prepared before you go up there.
So all of our horses, as they're
introduced in and they're trained,
it could take six months, that's even
part of their training, us riding
them up there or taking them up there.
So they're very familiar with
the environment up on the
hills before we ever go there.
Mm-hmm.
They go up there a couple of times
a week we're up there with them in
groups of horses or with po- children
that we're ponying, and it's just
so relaxing from the minute we go
across the road and open the first
gate and go up along into the trees.
The horses relax, the children
then, they're just loving it.
You're climbing constantly on the way
up most of the way, and you go up then
and we give the child, "We go left.
We go right."
So we're on a pathway the whole
way, but you're just completely
covered by trees and nature, and
the birds are singing up there.
It's, you can relax and we can s-
there's stopping points we have then
along the way then where you could stop
and you just look down over the valley.
And even the children, they just stop
and take a deep breath and they look.
Like, it's, it's just, it's ov- you
know, for just a place that we call
the hill across the way, it does
wonders for the children up there.
I used to actually even ride up
there in the winter at the nighttime
and I'd go off to the right
before with a group of children.
I think you actually came
with me a few years ago.
I had seven or eight children, and we used
to go off to the right-hand side then in
the dark even when it was early winters.
And that way we could see, I think
it was Newcastle West, and you
could, all you could see was about
a, a million lights from the town.
And the children were just trying to count
the lights, the amount of lights they saw.
It was, they were just,
it was, it was fantastic.
I can still visualize it now, even today,
and the little children's faces, and
they're all trying to count how many
lights could they see and where was that.
It was like another world,
what they could see.
And, you know, to us, this is just
the next door, the town next door,
but it was beautiful to watch, and it
was so, it's the relaxation up there.
But that's because we're
inside of thousands of trees
and birds and everything.
It's just, it's just pure natural nature
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think, too, that
the, those views, that, that they're
extraordinary, the views from up there?
Helen Picha: Yeah, they're fabulous.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think that those
are helping with brain development in
terms of perspective, in terms of giving
that bird's-eye view, in terms of going
from a, a world that has, you know, become
quite small- Yeah ⦠often, you know?
To then really suddenly massively
expand it and possibility and freedom.
Helen Picha: Yeah, but you can see
the child just taking just, you
can even see them taking the deep
breaths up there and relaxing.
Plus they have, you know, you've
been working the horse the whole way
up, so the child is, you know, their
oxytocin is, everything is working
before you get up to the very top.
Mm-hmm.
So the brain is open for development.
So by the time they get up there,
plus if you're going up even with a
group of four or five, you get the
conversation going with the children.
They start talking amongst one another.
So, you know, everything is working how
it should be when you're going up in
these hills like this and out into nature.
And, and then you just have the
beauty when you get there then.
And it's, it's just a
relaxed atmosphere up there.
It's very calming.
There has never been an incident
that you've had to take a
child off of a horse up there.
Rupert Isaacson: No i- it's amazing.
Your safety record's extraordinary.
Yeah.
And I remember w- in the early days
this ex- having this extraordinary
experience I remember go- riding up
there with David, and I think ma- you
might have been leading this ride.
You said, "Ru, I just want
to show you something."
So he, you know, we always
know with David, okay, there's
gonna be an agenda, right?
Fine, right.
So w- we ride up, and he says,
"Oh, we just wait here now.
We just wait here now."
And okay, and we're
looking out over the view.
And as you said, it was a late evening.
The dark, I think, was coming on.
Mm-hmm.
And then pretty soon we heard,
"Tukta tukta tukta tukta tukta."
And it's like hoof beats galloping.
I'm like, "Okay, something'sâ¦"
And David's like, "Just,
just, just wait, Rupert.
Just wait."
And, "Tukta tukta tukta
tukta tukta," louder.
And then suddenly eight little
cobs come flying past me-
with eight boys on them.
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: All of whom have autism.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And I'm not just
talking, you know, mild Asperger's,
but some of them not f- not verbal.
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: All riding independently.
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: All at the canter.
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
And taking instruction, even.
I remember telling them,
"Single file now, boys.
One behind another," and, you
know, they listened and understood
and do, they understood.
"Single file now."
Yeah, brilliant.
Rupert Isaacson: So what I noticed
was, you know, I, I, I sort of
said to David, you went, you know,
you flew by with the, the lads.
And I said to David, and I was
like, "H- David, how'd you do that?
You know, how'd you do that?"
And you know David, he was, "Oh,
he's-" And yeah, just so, so, and
but what I realized is, oh, I see.
You guys have a sort of a, an access
to the supernatural, the morphic
field, or the divine, or, or there's-
⦠something going on here which is
beyond simple protocols and training.
When you led that ride or
you lead rides like that-
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: it's obviously
not just about the kids.
The horses, those ponies themselves-
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm
Rupert Isaacson: um, need to,
you know, it, it, it could go,
it could go otherwise, let's say.
Helen Picha: It could go really wrong.
But, like, I would have never went
up- So- You know, you, I would go
up with one child at a time first.
Mm-hmm.
You know, as you're, as you're
introducing them and you're, you're
giving them confidence and you go
from ponying to individual riding.
Like, each one of those children
would have more than likely been up
there on their own with me or another
staff or maybe, and then we go two.
So we build it in that we have a group
going, which is very important for the
children, especially that are milder.
You know, it gives them more confidence.
It, you know, they could, a lot
of them children could have been
very shy and weren't interacting.
Yeah.
But the best way I think to get them
to interact is when their horse,
when they're on the horse together.
Yeah.
And you know, this was a
great achievement for them.
I remember when they got up the first time
up to the top, and we got up cantering.
But again, like, I would may have
been in front, but I would've had
another trained rider at the back.
Mm-hmm.
Which is even more important because
they're watching everyone, like.
But sometimes, you know, even though I
would come across, I was confident, like,
I would be still, you know, until I get
at the top and everyone is safe, you know.
Mm.
You're still worrying and your
heart is in your mouth, even
though I would've been very careful
matching horse to rider, you know.
Mm-hmm.
And that is very important that you don't
give a child a horse that they can't ride.
You know, you must make sure
they're suited to one another.
That's very, very important as well.
Rupert Isaacson: One of the things I s- I
noticed when I, when that, that cavalcade
went past me was I saw- Mm-hmm ⦠a
couple of the boys who were wobblier
I saw the horses actively underneath
them rebalancing their rider Mm-hmm,
Helen Picha: mm-hmm, yeah
Rupert Isaacson: And y- anyone who is, you
know this you know, any- anyone who's a
horseman knows that when a horse is at its
most generous, that is what they will do
Yeah And when they know that they have a
vulnerable person up there and they decide
that they want to look after that person-
Helen Picha: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: they will do that.
But of course, not every horse will
do this, and not every horse in a
therapeutic environment will do this.
Why would you say that your horses there
in Liskinagh will take that uncle, aunt
sort of role even in those types of
situations where they could have a bit
of, you know, fun at the rider's expense?
I s-
Helen Picha: you know, I suppose,
David and I have been very you know,
with every horse we've got, we just
don't say, "This horse is gonna work."
They won't all work, you know?
And some horses are, are faster than
the other, but we put them through
a quite rigorous training before
any service user will ride them.
And we do a lot of work with
them, and we ride them up to
hill, and we do different things.
And David has his bags under
the legs and we do a lot of
disciplining riding in the arena.
So I think the temperament of
the horse is the first thing
we look at when we get them in.
They have to have a
really nice temperament.
It's like a human.
You know, we're no m- we're not very
much different, horse and human, really.
Mm.
I think we're very familiar,
similar to one another, like.
So we have to connect with the
horse first, like, and I just
think that's the main thing.
Their temperament has to be,
is very important, and you just
work with the horse from there.
You know, you work.
Okay.
And even when we're on them, like, we're,
you know, we get to know them first
and we're doing the, the flat work and
the different work and up the hill, and
then we start as if we are a service
user and we get upset on the horse and
everything, and you're watching for that
reaction of the horse straight away.
Mm.
But I even sees even some of the mornings
when we'd ride out the thoroughbreds,
especially now in the mornings, and a
lot of the school children are on the
thoroughbreds because, as you know, they
wouldn't be very weight-bearing horses,
you know, they're for the smaller ones.
And we can see them if we're riding them
out and if they're feeling well of a
morning, but it doesn't matter, no matter
which child gets on these race horses,
or any horse we've in the yard, it, they
just completely, they go down and relax.
They've had been, they've been
hit, slapped and everything.
They d- are, they are not reacting.
They're just, they're so intelligent
animals, and it's like as if they know
when a child is going up that has the
intellectual disability or autism,
they're actually looking after the child.
Mm.
It's, it's fabulous to see it, and it's
great then, you know, say, "Okay, we got
this horse to here," but the horse is
taking it from there then, like, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: I couldn't agree more.
And, and you were talking about race
horses, so one of the- Yeah ⦠things
which it's good for listeners
to understand is so Liskinagh
is partly the, you know, is, is
actually very much supported by a
family called the McManus family-
Helen Picha: Yes
⦠Rupert Isaacson: who are big into racing.
Yeah.
And many of the retired horses end
up with a second career at, Yes
at Liskinagh.
Mm-hmm.
And it's always interesting to me
in the therapeutic environment when
there's a, there's a, there's a lot
of people who feel that thoroughbreds,
you know, they're not safe.
You can't use them, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
Now, of course, any of us that
grew up around thoroughbreds know
that that's actually not true.
Yeah.
And we've also got Square Peg Foundation
over in California, that horse
boy place which almost exclusively
uses h- race horses off the track.
Mm.
But it's still, I think, for a
lot of people, a bit of a mind
blower, and when they come out to
Liskinagh, yeah, they're going to
see racehorses, many of which have
actually been quite successful and won.
Helen Picha: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: They're
not just reject horses.
Helen Picha: No,
Rupert Isaacson: no ⦠taking
out children out into the open-
Mm-hmm ⦠who are going to throw
all kinds of things at them.
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And doing this exemplary
job, what is the special thing about
Thoroughbreds, and also what's your,
what's the, the way in which you bring
the Thoroughbreds into the program?
Because I know you have a sort
of several step process for this.
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
Well, they're very intelligent
the Thoroughbreds are.
We'll say when they come into us, they're
just retired from racing So they're
coming into us still with a racing brain.
So we let them off into the fields
for a couple of weeks, watch them to
see how they react, and then we say,
"Okay, let's bring them in one by one."
So the first thing we have to do is
get the racing brain out of their
head, let them understand, okay,
we're not gonna gallop you anymore.
There's no more racing,
there's no more whips.
It's, you know, you're coming
into, we're gonna bring you back
down i- into, like, I had to come
back down from the racing circuit.
So you're bringing your horse right
back down into the basics, relaxation.
They're not getting the high volume
of of feed that they would get
when they're racing and the multi.
Yes, they're still fed and looked
after and everything is that way,
but you're bringing their brain
away from the racing circuit.
You're not getting up on them every
morning and gallop, and we're gonna
gallop, and schooling them over fences.
You're bringing them back.
You're into your sand arena.
You're doing, you're doing
your walk, your seated trot.
You're getting them to work from behind,
building up the top line and just, it's
getting the gallop out of the brain.
We haven't galloped any
of those racehorses.
Yes, we'd give them some fun
days up across the hill if we had
to show up, but it's still not,
yeah, yeah, fly mat to the mat.
It's nice, sit down, relax.
We are u- using a long stirrup
now because we use a western
saddle all the time in Liskinagh.
So it's just getting them to relax
and stop chewing the bit and realize
this is a relaxed environment.
You've gone into a different
completely world of what you were
in, and they seem to understand that.
And once they're suitable, they're,
they're br- they're brilliant.
You know, I think that- And they
walk on, they walk on very well
as well, which is very important.
They're good walkers.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Helen Picha: So they'll walk on
and so the child is ha- you know,
they're getting their oxytocin because
they're really walking good rhythm.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Rocking the child's hips, absolutely.
Yeah,
Helen Picha: really good.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Y- when I, I know
too you've got a sort of process
before they even come to the farm,
which is at, at David at his house
and he- Yeah ⦠he takes them.
Can you just d- d- describe what ha-
happens there so that they start up
there in Charleville at David's, and
then before they come to you even.
Yeah.
So, so just, just walk us through this.
I think this is interesting
for people to, to know.
Helen Picha: So he, he'll keep them
up there for a week or 10 days and
David does, well, what he does, well,
he's a little sand arena and you know,
he put, he has these bags he puts
through their legs and all different
signs and diff- it's completely
different to what they're used to.
And he says, "Yeah, Helen, I think
this horse will make it with us."
So he'll come on then down after and
we'd start riding them out together.
Anyone that has ridden
thoroughbreds will go on them first.
We just won't even, we, you know,
you have to be used to riding
racehorses at some degree of level
to work with them from the start.
And we just go out through our
process with them all the time and
bring them down, down, down and
relax them, and they could take six
months, they could take 12 months.
Yeah.
But no child will go on top of them
until we're satisfied they are ready.
But you would be fairly, you would know
earlier on by the horse's temperament, you
know, that's, that's your first indicator.
You're looking at the
temperament of the horse.
Rupert Isaacson: I, I think that that
two-stage process where David takes
them at his- Yeah ⦠and sort of
auditions them, if you like, over there-
Helen Picha: Yeah,
it's, yeah, it's like an
Rupert Isaacson: audition
Helen Picha: there ⦠lunging period
And what do you think, and do you
think we'll, that they'll make it?
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're
considering a career in the equine
assisted field, you might want to consider
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and
developed in conjunction with Dr.
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.
We work in the saddle
with younger children.
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
It works incredibly well.
It's now in about 40 countries.
Check it out.
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be
applied in schools, in homes.
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do
at home that will create neuroplasticity.
when they're not with you.
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they
need, as well as Serving my clients.
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base
absolutely gives you this.
It's, it's a very wise way to go.
And it's a kind of a horseman's decision,
which it's, it's the type of horsemanship
which I think is often missing, Yeah
in ther- the therapeutic environment.
You know, normally it would be
like there's a stable, a donation
horse shows up at the stable,
okay, there's a probation period.
That's
Helen Picha: it.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, but this
thing of, of saying, "No, no, I
will take the horse at home first.
I will take the risk of being the one
that works with it, rides it, gets
up on it, gets to know even if this
horse is a contender," before- Yeah
saying to the staff down at Liskinard,
"Okay, now let's turn him out with
the herd down there, and now let's
see if we're right about this horse."
Yeah.
And then, as you say,
over the course of a year-
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: bringing
that horse into the work.
You know, it's not a typeâ¦
you know, when, when you say it like
that, it, it, it makes perfect sense.
One thinks, "Oh, that's common sense."
Yeah.
But we, you and I both know that
it's not often done that way.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Given that you are
massively overworked, you have this large
volume of, of clients coming through- Yeah
⦠how do you m- make the time to do the
training and preparation of the horses?
'Cause this is always
difficult for people.
Helen Picha: Yeah, so, you know, our first
clients aren't in until 10:00, but I'm at
work at quarter past 7:00 every morning.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Helen Picha: And all
horses are brought in.
So we'd always have two or three
new horses that are coming forward
that we have to specifically
work on in the mornings.
You know, all horses are brought
in, all horses are fed we
have a horse walker as well.
But the, the newest ones, or
it's the newest client that's
in, we work on them all the time.
And then we obviously have staff that
are trained up in the Horse Boy Method,
so the ones that are continuing on, I
could send that two out to the arena
for lunging and do that work with them.
I could pick another rider and
say, "Okay, we're going out on
these race horses this morning."
Myself and David always
ride the race horses.
I have another new supervisor,
Padraig is his name ex-amateur from
England, so he's very qualified
with the race horses as well.
So we work on the riding of the race
horses, the new ones coming in, and
but you have, when you start with
them, you can't just do it one day a
week, is, you have to be consistent.
Mm.
And, and it doesn't matter if it's
a, a Thoroughbred or a half-bred or
what it is, you must be consistent
when you bring them in and say, "Okay,
we're three-quarters way here with
this fella now, we must continue
and get this fella over the line."
But you must continue, you can't
just do it one or two days a week.
This is work, and you, you
keep going until you get to
the end goal and he's ready.
So that, and especially with the
Thoroughbred, you must keep working
on them, and a- again, not one day
a week, you're wasting your time.
You, it's like anything, you keep going
until you ha- you get to the end result.
Rupert Isaacson: You mentioned lunging
there, and I know that you're doing a
lot of other work on the ground, too.
It's not just riding.
Can you, can you walk us through
a little bit what the ground
training is with your horses there?
Helen Picha: So we say to build
up the back line and all that, and
build up the strong back and make the
horse work from behind, it's either
we're long lining, we're lunging.
So that's on the ground doing the
in-hand work, and, or we do it on the
riding as you taught us, the countdowns.
I mean, they're brilliant for the horses.
Thoroughbreds at the start now
found them a little bit confusing.
Yeah.
So you know, we just do, we'll just
do the walk today, lads, we're saying,
or we'll do a little flat work.
We'd have our eight poles in the
middle of the sand arena, and we're
on our seat of trot in and out through
them, and then we'll say, "Okay,
lads, we're on the countdowns."
So we'll start them always on the walk.
So we'll teach them our one to
10s backwards on the walk first.
And some of them are fine by it, but
some of the Thoroughbreds then could
get a little bit, you'd see them chewing
the bit, and you're just rubbing them,
and you're, you're reassuring them.
So you're teaching these
racehorses a new skill as well.
Yeah.
That it's okay for you to walk 10
steps and stop for two steps and back
to eight, and then when they're happy
with that, we'll do to the trot.
But sure, we could be in the trot
for another two months, especially
with the racehorse, before
we'll even get to the canter.
Yes.
You know?
So there, there can be, there has to be
no rush with the training of them, of
the racehorses especially, but any of
them, they've all different temperaments.
And like my, I may say, we have racehorses
that were second in Cheltenham and
everything, but the cob mare like
Lady, she's as valuable to us as the
horse that was second in Cheltenham.
Absolutely.
You know, when they come in like
that, what they'd done before, it
is really re- is irrele- irrelevant.
The children love to know it.
Oh, this fella won five races, and,
and they love the story of the horse.
But to us as an equine therapy
yard, the value of the horse
is how valuable he is to us-
Mm-hmm ⦠and working with the child.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Helen Picha: You know?
Rupert Isaacson: You also do some driving.
You mentioned the carriage earlier.
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm a great believer
in bringing driving into therapeutic
environments for a bunch of reasons.
You know, there are some kids, you
just cannot put them on a horse for-
Helen Picha: Yeah ⦠a
Rupert Isaacson: multitude of reasons.
Mm-hmm.
But one of the other things I love is
that similar to when you are back riding,
when you have a child in front of you in
the saddle- Mm-hmm ⦠when a child is
in a carriage, they're looking forward-
Helen Picha: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: and there's a sense of
agency, particularly if they're sitting
next to the person doing the driving-
Mm-hmm ⦠particularly if they can
even take the reins to some degree.
Yeah.
There is an oxytocin effect.
It's not as strong as on the horse.
On the
Helen Picha: horse, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But it's still there.
There is still some rocking of hips.
But one of the things I really love
about it is that you can put groups of
people, social groups- Yeah ⦠there.
So many- Or
Helen Picha: families, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
So can you, c- talk us through
how you use the, the driving, and
how that came into the program,
'cause that wasn't your background.
Helen Picha: No.
Well, we have one particular
mare, Flash, she's the one that
does all the carriage drives.
Mm-hmm.
And we try to have her out at, you know,
she'll be there for the Christmas or the
Halloween event, Saturdays if we can.
Mainly it's for families
to go out together.
Mm.
We find that especially if a child won't
go up on the horse and we say, "You know,
the carriage is out there," and the, the
mum, the dad, and the siblings, they-
it's like they go for a family little run
around the whole of the sensory trail.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Helen Picha: They, they, they would beâ¦
They love it, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It's I think it's
Helen Picha: specifically- Very,
very relaxing for them as well,
like, but yeah, just the fact
that they go together is lovely.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It, it, it sort of allows
the family to participate-
Helen Picha: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: all together.
I think this is something that's
often a little bit overlooked.
Helen Picha: Mm.
Because not always, the mum and dad
won't always get up- Yeah ⦠on
the, on the Saturday ride either.
Or one or the other
might or they might not.
Sometimes they just like to go into our
kitchen and have a cup of tea, and leave
us off with the children, and they get
that half an hour just for themselves,
and they'll meet other families.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Helen Picha: Which is
hugely important, so yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
I, I know that as an autism parent
myself you always get your best
information from other parents, right?
Yeah.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But you often don't
get a chance to meet them- Yeah
⦠because you're isolated and so busy.
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
But then you are- And we, and we
notice then they'd arrange with
one another for the next Saturday
that they come at the same time.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Helen Picha: So, you know, they're,
it's like a meeting point for them then,
and the children can play around, and
they come back from their ride on the
horse and they're, you know, they're
in great form, and they're feeling
great, and they go out then and play
on the trampoline and everything.
So they could stay there for
hours, the families, on a Saturday.
There's no time limit or anything.
You can stay all day if you want.
Bring a picnic and everything, you
know, 'cause we have the indoor arena,
so it doesn't matter if it's raining.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Helen Picha: You know?
So there's no rush away, and it's
very important that they know that.
It's
Rupert Isaacson: such,
it's such a great model.
A, a lot of people will be thinking
how many staff have you got to, to-
Helen Picha: Yes
Rupert Isaacson: maintain
Helen Picha: something like this?
So we have one, two, three.
I have three supervisors underneath
me, and we have another six or
seven relief staff, but we also have
fantastic volunteers that we could
not do the Saturdays without them.
We could have a line of 12 or 13
horses going out on a Saturday
every day, every half an hour,
whatever, and I'd have six staff in.
So six working staff, like,
with six volunteers as well.
Mm.
And you would need 12 going out
to keep it flowing so there's no
build-up, you know, a backlog of, you
know, 'cause children don't like to
wait too long for their horse ride.
So we would have at least six
volunteers in on the Saturdays as
well that give up their time most
Saturdays the whole year round.
We couldn't do it without them.
They're brilliant people.
Yeah.
So very important you, you, you
advertise for your volunteers, and
you look after them when you get them.
Rupert Isaacson: Is it difficult
to find the volunteers there?
Helen Picha: Well, we're advertised for
it always, and you know, they come in.
But yeah, no, who come in,
they're very good, like, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I, well, I, I get such
Helen Picha: a lot of d-
The process is all right.
There's a bit of process in it, you know.
Yeah.
'Cause they have to be Garda
vetted and they have to have
the Children's First Aid course.
You know, there's things to do.
But we always have somebody- Garda vetted
means police background check, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, police, yeah, background
check, which you have to have working
with children with disability.
Mm-hmm.
So the process could take six or
eight weeks for somebody that wants
to volunteer to come in with us.
Mm-hmm.
But anyone that does volunteer,
like, they're, they're very committed
and, you know, they come up and
whenever they say they're coming,
they'll turn up, and they're there
for a good few years, all of them.
You know, they're great.
Rupert Isaacson: Do some of them do it
because they want to actually enter the
equine-assisted industry and work in that?
Or is it mostly older
people where you, you get-
Helen Picha: mostly people that
are kind of retired or semi-retired
or- Mm-hmm ⦠yeah, that's who,
who do it really, like, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And they'd need a fair
amount of physical fitness for this.
Helen Picha: Yeah, they would,
but they don't all have to walk.
You know, it's lovely to have somebody
meeting the families coming in as well.
Mm-hmm.
So you know, if we take, if somebody
doesn't want to do the walking, now
we're very lucky what we ha- the lads
we have in and the ladies, they are very
fit, and they would stay most of the day
on the Saturday or a half day anyway.
But they're great once they
get to know the people.
Do you know when they're
coming every Saturday and
they get to know the families.
But it's great to have somebody back to
meet a new family that's coming in because
as you know yourself, when you're coming
into Liskin, it is huge and there's,
there's so much to see, and you'd always
notice the family coming in that's new.
They're very overwhelmed, and they, they
don't know what to do, and the children
are running around and everything.
So it's lovely to have somebody meeting
them when they come in and greeting
them 'cause if we're out with 12 horses
and there's no one there, there's
always have somebody back to meet them
and, you know, show them around and
tell them, "Relax," or, "There'll be
a supervisor back in a minute now, and
they'll take you through everything."
And so there's a place for everybody
as a volunteer, or if they, you know,
you wanna stay in the kitchen and
there's, there's a place for everyone.
You don't have to walk every
30,000 steps if you don't want to.
Rupert Isaacson: Th- these roles
and these activities that are not
horse-based, you and I both know
they're as important as- Yeah,
Helen Picha: they're very important.
Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: You've got on the
side of that, what used to be the
arena and what is now of course
this massive indoor play space.
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: You've got this, as you,
you referred to it earlier, this sort
of little slip room up, up a stairway-
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm
Rupert Isaacson: with a
mirrored wall and music.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And it's
really a dance studio.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Why did you put that in,
and what, what are the benefits you see?
Helen Picha: Well, I put ⦠I
remember I was going on holidays a
couple of years ago when my son was
dancing in a world championship in
Canada or somewhere, and I was going
Rupert Isaacson: on holidays- Your,
your son's an Irish dancer, right?
He's, he's a champion Irish dancer.
Helen Picha: Yes, Rudy.
Yeah, yeah.
And so I was going on my holidays,
and there was this little, that
little room was always up there
but there was nothing in it.
There was a piece of sand,
but we did nothing with it.
And David anyway, instead of saying,
"Helen, have the great holiday," and
switch off, he said to me, "While
you're on holidays now, Helen,
would you ever think of something
that we could do to that room?"
He said when, "And think of it
while you're away, you know?"
I said, "Okay, I will so, David.
I'll think of it while I'm on holidays."
So while I was on holidays, I, I did
think about it because the year or two
years prior to that I broke my ankle off
of a horse while I was working on him.
And David, he was called to my
house with Caroline every couple
of weeks to see how I was.
And one of the days they called, my
son Rudy was down in his training
room training in front of, for
his competition, and Caroline came
down and I said, "Come on down."
I said, "Rudy's training
below in the shed.
Have a look."
So Caroline had no
interest in Rudy training.
All she saw was the big mirror,
the speaker system- Caroline being
Rupert Isaacson: David's
autistic daughter, right?
Helen Picha: Adult daughter.
The daughter, yeah.
Dave, Caroline Doyle.
All she saw was the big mirrors, the
music system, and the music bopping.
So all Caroline do was she was delighted
with the mirrors and she was dancing
mad, and she was having great fun.
And I, I thought, "This is great."
Thought no more of it.
And then when I went on holidays and he
said, you know, "Think of something for
this room," that's what came into my head.
I said, "Oh my God, I could
turn it into like a little
dancing mirrored music room."
So I called it the MMM room,
movement method to music.
And I came back and I
said to David, "I have it.
I thought of it while I was gone."
And I said, "Do you remember Rudy when
he came up and he blah, blah, blah?"
And he says, "Yeah."
And he says, "Yeah, go and order
the mirrors straight away."
So I was able to visualize what it was.
So I just covered a
whole room with mirrors.
'Cause children, they love
dancing, but they love looking
at themselves in the mirrors.
And we put down the low LED lighting
and just redesigned it and put in, I
said, "We need something simple that,
I don't want something computerized
'cause everyone's not great."
I said, "We need something that when
the child comes up, if they want
to dance to Peppa Pig or Michael
Jackson, they just need to say it
out loud and the music comes on."
So that where Alexa came in.
So we just put it all together
and it was up within a week.
And it, it's very popular.
The children love it.
Rupert Isaacson: How, yeah, I was gonna
say, how, how much do the kids use it?
Do they need to be obviously shown it
'cause it's a little bit out of the way?
Do they then request it?
Do they start- Or do you have
kids who only wanna do that?
Like, h- how do people interact
with the dancing- They, they
bring it into part ofâ¦
Helen Picha: We'll say, you know,
when we have new school, schools now,
ex- for example, when they come in
I would do a leading course with the
SNAs, our teachers that are coming in.
So we'd have two staff with
the schools, for example.
So we would have s- schools would
have to bring in staff to us to
teach them how to lead a horse.
So we call, we teach them
how to do a leading course.
So I would set up a date for this to
happen, so they would all come in, and
I'd bring them into the indoor arena
first, and I would show them around of
this is where you meet, but this is all
our facilities that you can use with your
children when you come here to Liskinass.
And so I'll take them up to the
music room and show them, and
take them to the sensory room
and the kitchen and everything.
They're shown everything.
So that's how it starts.
So when they come with the children then,
they, they know where to go with them.
Or on the Saturdays then we'll
show them around anyone new.
We show, "Well, this is here for you."
So it's just part of all our places.
They know where to go because they've
already been shown from the start.
So they just go in up the stairs, and they
turn on their Alexa and away with them.
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting,
though, because we used to find that a
lot of times when people came out with
school groups, the, the aides would
not necessarily wanna get involved,
and they'd wanna sort of stand there
on their phones and head off to
the kitchen and have a cup of tea.
And we think, well, fair enough
to some degree, because everyone
needs a break, but at the same
time, yes, we need your input.
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Is it, how do you
get the the teacher's aides in there
strutting their funky stuff in-
Helen Picha: Well, when, when they, when
Rupert Isaacson: they- ⦠in
the dark music room?
Helen Picha: When theyâ¦
Well, because we show them.
Well, they don't have
anything to do really.
Yeah.
I mean, they take the children
up, the children do it themselves.
They run up the stairs 'cause they see
the different color lights coming on, and
I would just say, "It's Alexa," whatever.
The children go up, and they just
dance around, and the teacher
will ask Alexa what to put on.
They, they don't have any work
to do because the children will
just play up there themselves.
Okay.
'Cause it's just that inviting
atmosphere to go up there.
It's like when you go into the room
and you see the stairs going up.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Helen Picha: And, you know,
there, there is no work involved
in it- And the lights at the top
because we kept it very basic
and simple by, by using Alexa, so
you only ask her, and she'll do
Rupert Isaacson: it.
And then if you've got a bunch of kids
who all want to listen to different
things, how do you deal with that?
Helen Picha: Well, the teachers are
the ones that are up there with them.
But you see, if you've a, a group of
10 children that are the same age,
you know, they're into the same music,
most of them anyway, like, you know?
And if they don't want toâ¦
You see, we've so many different
little areas they can go to.
Mm-hmm.
If they don't want to go up and
dance to the music, they can go
down to the indoor arena, or they
go out to the playground, or they'll
go into our little sensory room.
So they have different, you
know- They have different
things to do when they come.
It's not just one area.
They have five or six different
things to choose from.
Rupert Isaacson: And let's now dissect
your indoor arena because you, you, you
keep referring it to as that because
that is what its original purpose was.
Yeah.
But it's no longer used for that at all.
Yeah.
Can you describe what it looks
like and how it's set up?
I think this is a really useful thing
for other practitioners to visualize.
Helen Picha: So initially it was set
up as a riding indoor arena with sand.
So it, it wasn't working.
We weren't using it.
We, it just wasn't getting the use
that it should get for an indoor arena,
so it was decided to change this.
So we put the all-weather
carpet down on it.
There's, the stage is in there, and
that's permanently in there then.
So we have musical instruments up
on the stage if children want to go
up and bang at drums and everything.
We've loads of flags hanging
all around, so it's colorful.
So you have to make it
bright and colorful.
All around in, we've all
different animals up on posters.
So if the child wants to go over, so
there's chickens and there's horses
and there's ducks and there's all the
wild animals, the hares and the fox.
So we've allâ¦
There, there must be about 30 different
animals all around the walls at eye
level to a child, so they can go
around and sort of talking about that.
Then we have little bicycles and
balls so there's, they can play there.
They're running around.
They can use up a lot of energy in there.
But we also have maybe 20 or
30 p- picnic tables in there.
So when a group, they comes in,
they can have their picnic there.
They can bring their breakfast with
them if they're coming from the schools.
On the Saturdays, the families can
go in and as we tell them, "You
can stay there all day if you want.
There's no rush away.
We're there from half past
9:00 to half past 3:00.
Bring something to eat."
They can eat in there on
the picnic tables as well.
They can use our kitchen facilities
for making tea or coffee or whatever.
So it has multiple use, and it's big.
So we had have three schools in every
morning, 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock and
12 o'clock, and they can overlap.
So you just need a big area and a big
group, and every school looks after their
own groups, like, but there's enough
room in there to cater for them all.
Rupert Isaacson: It's s-
it's so imaginative, and
it's so commonsensical- Yeah
but it's absolutely not the norm of
what one sees, you know, around in
your average therapeutic riding place.
It, you know- Mm-hmm ⦠the,
the amount of-
Helen Picha: There's music on always.
We'd have music on in
the background as well.
Mm.
You know, so there's a nice
atmosphere in there all the time.
Rupert Isaacson: When other people come
in, I know you guys run trainings, you
know, at, at Lasquinet and they see the
variety of things that you offer, you
know, particularly off the horse as well
as on movement method and other things.
As you say, the repurposing of that indoor
arena into this vast play/social space,
music space eating space Do you find that
the people that come in for the trainings,
then they go off to set up their own
places, are they inspired by that?
Do they take those things away
or, or do you, do you see,
no, it's really just Liskinit?
And if it is just Liskinit,
why, why do you think that is?
Why, why do you think this is not the
norm of what we see in other places?
Helen Picha: Well, anybody that has come
and we showed them around, like they are
very impressed with all aspects of it.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Helen Picha: And you know, we, we will
just show them what we do, and it's up to
each individual, I suppose, to take it.
It's not everybody would be lucky
enough to have that size of an indoor
arena in their own spaces anyway.
It's
Rupert Isaacson: true, but I
think most of us can put together
some sort of social environment-
Helen Picha: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: which
Helen Picha: has- But it is
important to have a social area-
Rupert Isaacson: Yes ⦠i-
Helen Picha: in your, in your thing.
It's important for where people
can come in and sit down and relax,
and let the children run off and
run around in a safe space and know
there's nothing gonna happen to them.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And
Helen Picha: that's, that's very
true of our indoor arena 'cause it
is big, and like you can see, you,
you can sprint up and down, you can
race in it, like and they would let
off a lot of energy, but it's safe.
There's nothing there to hurt them.
Rupert Isaacson: It, it's hilarious
to me 'cause you, you must be the only
place, equestrian place, in Ireland
that I know that has a big indoor
arena that doesn't use it for riding or
Helen Picha: for And, and
we, and we have a pool table.
We also have a pool table in there.
Okay.
And we have a table tennis, you know.
Mm.
So, you know, the children, and it's great
for the use of their hands and everything,
so it, there's play as, as well in there.
Like, so your pool table and your
table tennis, they're alongside one
another at the lower section of it.
And sure, 'tis always, the children
are always playing the games there.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm, mm.
You know, it's, it's, it's
so interesting that when you
give people the choice, even-
Helen Picha: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: young people too,
even in a, a climate like Ireland
which- Yeah ⦠can be rough, you know.
Helen Picha: Yeah, can be raining, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: They'll choose
the nature, they'll choose the
outside over the covered arena.
That- Mm ⦠but they
might go inside to play.
Mm.
But they want to ride outside.
It's, it's interesting-
Outside, yeah ⦠to me.
Helen Picha: The inside
riding in there did not work.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think that
that's their nervous systems taking
over and sort of actually saying-
Helen Picha: Yeah, see, it's
more relaxing outside, you see.
Yeah.
You're, it's, you know,
that, that's theâ¦
No matter what way, and you try to
answer that question, it is more relaxing
to go outside and just look at the
nature and breathe in the fresh air
than go into this enclosed arena, no
matter how nice you try to decorate it.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Helen Picha: It was just
a closed, no fresh air.
It was boring.
That's how I would describe it.
Yeah, yeah.
It was boring.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: sterile.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: We, we've always
in Horse Boy tried to encourage
people to use arenas minimally.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But it was really
interesting to me to see how even
in County Limerick, which, you know,
you can be dealing with horizontal
rain and blizzards in June, you know.
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: To watch if children
have the choice, they will go out.
Yeah,
Helen Picha: to go out.
Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And that we as
adults kind of have to follow them.
Mm-hmm.
But, you know, many of us as adults kind
of wanna stay in that nice covered arena
'cause, you know, we don't wanna get wet.
No.
And this-
Helen Picha: So we tell everybody
when we're training them to do the
leading course, and the staff also
of the different sections of St.
Joseph's Foundation, they're
also all trained to lead.
But, you know, we still speak to
them when we're training them.
It's not just training
them how to lead a horse.
We explain to them how important it is,
and it is your job as a carer for these
adults and children to, when they come
here to Liskinass, that we give them
the best productive time that we can.
And how we do that is take them out.
It doesn't matter what the weather is,
so come dressed appropriately for it.
You know, if it's raining,
you wear your oil gear.
Yeah.
You know?
And, and have your, your
rider dressed as well.
They don't care, the lads don't
care if it's raining on the horses.
They go out.
Just you put, make sure they have
an, a jacket on them for the rain.
And but so really the staff, your
staff training is also very important,
that they- Yeah ⦠understand
you're, you're bringing your, your s-
service user for their equine session.
Make sure you're geared up
to go out in the rain because
we're going out in the rain.
Unless it's horrendously wind at 100
miles an hour, we are going out, and
everybody knows that now about Liskinass.
The weather isn't gonna
stop us from going out.
Mm.
So we are going out, and everybody
knows that before they come to us
So it's very important to, to training
of the staff as well, you know
Rupert Isaacson: So n- not everyone who
gets involved in this kind of work wants
to be out in all weathers like that.
And it is very hard work what you do.
It's hard physically.
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: It's hard mentally
and emotionally because, as you
say, you're keeping people safe.
Mm.
You've got a lot of people,
those Saturdays where you
have up to, you know, 100-
Helen Picha: And we're als- ⦠hundred
people ⦠we're also doing since
you've been with us last now, you'll
see it when you come in September, we
have since started doing Sundays in St.
Joseph's Foundation in Charleville.
So we take up eight horses- In
my local town ⦠in the town,
so that, that's the base of, we
say Liskinagh is a hub under St.
Joseph's Foundation.
Mm.
So there's a five-year project there.
I mean, wait 'til you see this.
You, you'll be fascinated.
There's a five-year project
already started now.
We've nearly one year put down.
So there's the swimming pool
up there there's the playground
is yet to be put together.
We've a pitch and putt course,
and we have our little equine
yard down the bottom of that where
we're bringing up eight horses now.
We done every Sunday in July, and we
will do every Sunday in August, but
it was two Sundays a month all year.
So we go up there with eight horses,
and there could be 100 people
booked in or 120 booked in between
the swimming and everything, so
they have the choice to come down.
You don't book for the horse riding.
But this is a huge, again, now
for North Cork as well, and
this is really gonna take off.
But it's a five-year project.
It's going to be turned into, like,
a mini Tribulgan, like a holiday
resort for families and respite
where you can stay for the weekend
with your family or your day.
And so this, this is another,
like, part of Liskinagh or St.
Joseph's Foundation that has
developed since you were with us last.
And on the 11th of August, which is next
week or the week after, and I'm going to
miss this 'cause I'll be away on holidays
the Taoiseach is turning the sod in our
new place in Kenturk that we've bought.
The HSE have given us 6 million for that.
So we, David told me this last
week, "Helen, you have to organize
this now before you go on holiday."
So we have 17 horses and service
users going back to Kenturk on
the 11th of August, and David will
arrange all the, the risks for it.
And the Taoiseach is turning the sod
on the premises in Kenturk that has
been bought to start up a smaller
version of Liskinagh Equine Center.
So that's, it's huge now.
When you see- So there's a lot of
Rupert Isaacson: things ⦠remember,
a lot of, a lot of people who
are listening are not Irish.
They don't know what you
mean when you say Taoiseach.
Can you
Helen Picha: say- Oh, yeah.
He, he's the we say he's Fianna
Fáil or the government of Ireland.
He's the prime
Rupert Isaacson: minister
Helen Picha: effectively.
He, he, he's like the, yeah, he's
like the, the government of Ireland.
He's the number one- So
the, the prime minister
Rupert Isaacson: effectively-
Helen Picha: Yeah, kind of ⦠is,
is gonna go out and turn the sod.
Yeah.
He's gonna turn the sod in
Kenturk premises and open up On
your new center, your new satellite
center ⦠on a new center that will
be like a smaller version of Liskinagh,
which is in the County Cork region.
Great.
So that's huge for us now again, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It is, it is, it is, and
Helen Picha: it, it's amazing- So it's
constant developing and, you know- I
always said, you know, when you were
over there la- two years ago and we'd
done the thing in Limerick Racecourse,
and I was interviewed with that with
our CEO, Michael Hegarty, and I stated
there that day, you could have a small
Liskeennock in every county in Ireland-
Rupert Isaacson: You certainly
Helen Picha: could
and you would still fill it.
You would still fill it.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
And so it's great that all these other
little places are opening up, so a lot.
David is our development officer,
so he has, he's worked very hard to
get Charleville up and running, and
Kenturk now is in the process as well.
So it's all evolving and just growing and
growing, and you have to keep learning and
growing all the time to keep improving.
Rupert Isaacson: What do you do for
you and your staff to prevent burnout?
It's a huge undertaking, what you guys do.
Helen Picha: It is.
Yeah.
You first have to have a really
good team that works together.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Helen Picha: That's most important,
and, and you have them trained.
And as I said, the interview
process is very important.
You have to know that they have
the passion, but you also have
to know they're good workers.
But you have to look after one another.
For example, if one of the staff is
just a little bit tired today, you
know, they need to know that they can
say this and they'll be put on easier
duty, as you call it, but they're
still there, have to do their job.
You just have to look after
one another as a circle.
So you're like, you're a
little mini family of work.
You have to still look after one another.
But once you've genuine good staff,
caring people and that are willing
to work, it's going to work.
And, like, if you've just even one
weak link, it makes it hard for
everyone, but I'm very pleased to
say I don't have any weak link.
I've a really, really good circle of staff
now that work very well together, and they
look after one another, and it just works.
And once everyâ¦
Like, grand, I went up to
David's position as the manager.
I still get up there in the morning, and I
won't be coming in with my high heels on.
I come into work, and I'm first in every
morning, and I will work with them.
I'm bringing in the horses.
I'm tacking up.
You still have to all work as a group.
Yeah.
And, and it has, you know, and it, you
know, it has to be that kind of, this
kind of old way of, "Oh, I'm the boss.
I'm going to tell you what to
do, and I'm doing nothing."
That doesn't work.
You have to work as a team,
no matter what, where you are.
Whether you're the relief coming
in or you're the manager at the
top, you have to work together
Rupert Isaacson: Nonetheless, and, and
le- leading from the front is a very
good and very necessary ethic, but, I
mean, nonetheless, burnout does happen.
Do you plan for it?
Do you allowâ¦
You know, do you h- strategize for it?
Because of course what one doesn't
want is somebody suddenly, who you
were relying upon, you know, imploding.
Yeah.
Or yourself.
Yeah.
How do youâ¦
You know, I, I, I've had to learn over
the years certain ways to anticipate it.
For example I used to consider,
you know, 'cause I'm old, you
know, and brought up in that old
school, that, you know, burnout was
something that other people did.
You know, for this- for
weak people or whatever.
You know, you won't get burnout.
And then you realize
actually no, everybody does.
And then you realize that
actually everybody actually does
it every day because they shut
down and they go to sleep, right?
So the body does say, "Sorry, but,
you know, that's your lot for today.
Checking out until tomorrow."
And when I sort of started looking at it
like that, I started thinking, "Ah, right.
Well, then what one should doâ¦"
What I do is I tend to plan for
burnout about every six weeks.
I assume that everybody is going
to go through some sort of mini
version of a burnout every six weeks.
And what does that mean?
What will they need?
And of course that's different
from person to person.
But I find that even being able
to talk about it, you know, it,
it can be, it can be useful.
Obviously you don't want people abusing
it, but at the same time- Yeah ⦠if
they can't talk about it, and if it's
not allowed, and if it's taboo, then
when it happens it hits like a freight
train and it, the whole team collapses.
So I, I do understand that y-
y- yes, leadership is great, you
have a great team and so on, but
nonetheless people do burn out.
Mm-hmm.
Get tired.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
mid-January, the wind is blowing.
W- w- what do you do practically,
you know, to allow for this
and to, yeah, to weather it?
Helen Picha: Well, you do have so many
days annual leave that you can take.
So if anyone is tired, you take
your annual leave if you need to.
Mm.
You know, and you try to break it up
over the different times of the year.
But, you know, when you're, when
everybody's working together, you get,
you know, you get to know one another.
Mm.
And you'd know, and you can see
if somebody's getting tired.
And then, you know, you just don't
push them or, you know, you say,
"Well, you do this today," or we
just, we swap around the work.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Helen Picha: But you, you,
we kind of work together.
You just have to know one another.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Helen Picha: That's fine anyway,
and it seems to work with us.
You know, if anyone's getting tired,
they'll say, "Oh, God, you know, I'm
actually tired today," we just swap around
the schedule and just work it like that.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you find, you know,
this is often said I certainly have
found it, but do you find that younger
people who come into the workforce
now with you that are less resilient
than they used to be in the old days?
And if so, how do you build up their
resilience so that you can rely on
them in those types of conditions?
Helen Picha: Yes.
We ha- we do have some re- young relief
staff, but I just find that they do- they
don't stay if they're not able for it.
Mm.
Like, they will leave, like.
And what will stay, they, they
will see it out, and they will keep
improving all the time, like, you know?
I just said they don't stay
if they're not able for it.
Right.
Like, they leave, like.
'Cause we- Yeah ⦠w- y- you know,
people when they come into us first,
they, we start them on a locum contract.
And it's kind of if and when we need them.
But, but, you know, it's like
everywhere, when you get in new
staff, you're just seeing how they
are, and you're watching them, and
it, you know, and see how they're
progressing and if they're able for it.
And if it doesn't suit
them, they won't stay.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Helen Picha: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, you came
out of a racing background, and the
racing background when, you know,
we were all younger, even though I
know you're only 21 was very harsh.
You know, the, the, the working
conditions on the yards, the, the, the
way people were treated, the, everything.
It, it was- Mm ⦠sort of military
I think deliberately with the
idea of, of making people tough
for- Yeah ⦠in a dangerous job.
That of course, you know, has
its cons as well as its pros.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: What do you feel,
y- you know, you said that you
came in from the racing industry
and had to sort of relearn, slow
down, just like the horses do.
Yeah.
Okay.
But what did you learn in the racing
industry, do you think, that actually
helps you with this job at Liskinitt?
Helen Picha: I suppose first my equine
knowledge and experience in working with
the racehorse, And it j- it just teaches
you hard work, you know, and discipline.
I was very disciplined
from a very young age.
I mean, I was six years of age
riding in my first pony race.
Yeah.
So I was very disciplined
from a young age.
I was taught you ride out your
pony before you go to school.
Yeah.
As I said, it was like military, like.
So coming from that, I was always
gonna be a, a good worker, a hard
worker, 'cause I stuck with it.
Do you know?
Mm.
I, I stayed with it.
Like, even though I went out of horses
for nearly eight years before I got my job
in Liskinagh, but I always missed them.
I just didn't want to go
back into the racing circuit.
Mm.
So I was delighted to go back into
them in a, in a different way.
But it definitely teaches you discipline
and, and what hard work is about.
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little
bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
What does it teach you about horsemanship?
What does it teach you
about horse maintenance?
What does it teach you about soundness?
What
Helen Picha: there's a lot- Yeah,
like, you're learning, I, I was only
22 or 3, I think, when I got out my
public racehorse trainer's license.
So that was actually very young
now when I think back on it, like.
But like you're dealing with
owners and trainers, and I
rode as an amateur for a while.
But it, you have to learn all this
if you want to run your own business.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Helen Picha: Do you know?
You know, I had to learn all this
as I went along, like, do you know?
Indeed.
But it really, you know, it's, it just
stood to me then because I can run a
yard with my eyes closed, you know?
It's just second nature to me.
I, you know, it's just, it's
what I've- Yeah ⦠been
doing since I was very young.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
If you were gonna give advice to
younger people who di- who are not
coming in with that background that you
had let's talk about, say, soundness.
How do you maintain
your horses' soundness?
Mm-hmm.
Helen Picha: When I get a, when a
new horse comes into Liskinagh now I
will ring our, our vet, John Noonan,
and he will give him the once over
a- as the veterinary side of it.
Next one I ring is the dentist, the
horse dentist, and he will check
out the horse's teeth and everything
if, you know, some of them have been
looked after very well, another horse
might have never seen a dentist.
Yes.
So all these things, the farrier is
brought in and shoe them, is there any,
is there any problems with the hoof?
So all, they're, like, what I would call
basic things, but that's how you start.
You're, you're bringing in your
farrier, your vet, your horse
dentist, very important, I would
call them very important people.
Mm-hmm.
Because I mean, if the teeth are
wrong, they're not eating right,
and that would affect the back.
So you're starting with the basics.
Get your horse checked over
from head to toe first.
Rupert Isaacson: And then
as they come into the work-
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: fitness, soundness,
what's your program there?
Helen Picha: So we'll hop up
and we'll ride them around.
You mean, you'd know by just walking
and trotting them if they're, you
know, they're sync, they're in line
and they're trotting and they're
sound and everything like that.
A lot of them you would have
to build up the back line.
Or you'll sit on a thoroughbred and his
head is out like that, and, you know,
you have to collect him in and so you're
kind of retraining them really, like.
Mm-hmm.
And do it nice and steady.
But you could see the improvement
in very quickly, you know.
What- Once you keep itâ¦
And then consistency is kind of, you
have to keep consistent with your work.
Rupert Isaacson: What's your go-to for
just maintaining that soundness in the
tendons, that soundness in the legs?
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Like, as the horse is walking in
every morning when I go out for
them in the field, I just check
every one of them walking in first.
This is, like, morning
routine, that they're sound.
Yeah.
You know?
That's, you know, that
they're sound every day.
But you see, we have had some horses come
with us and they may have tendon trouble
or, you know, they could have broke
down or they were bar fired from racing.
But they're not galloping
anymore, so th- that's over.
They're, they'reâ¦
You know, once they're sound, and as you
said, the teeth is right and th- they're
checked and they're worm dosed properly
a couple of times a year, and their
teeth are done, and you do your flat
work with them and you build them up, and
you feed them, and you look after them,
your horse is going to stay sound 'cause
they're happy and they're looked after.
Right.
And they're out in their herd,
and they're s- they're, they're
in their own little groups.
And you rug them- So
they're living outside.
And you rug- They're living
outside at night, and then-
Yeah, outside all the time.
Okay.
Be out- outside.
Winter, they're outside all the time.
They're rugged up in the winter,
but they're out all year round.
For the race horses, all right, we do have
the big barn where they can go in and out
to the field because, you know, they'reâ¦
they'd be a bit they were looked after
like in a seven-star hotel, all the ones
belonging to JP McManus, like , and then
they're all of a sudden wintered out.
But they're rugged up
now right up to the ears.
But they do have a barn, the
thoroughbreds, where they can go
in and out, but very important that
they can go out, and they will stay
out in the field most of the time.
Yeah.
But the barn is in there for where
they, where they have their haylage
they'll come in to eat, but they'll
still go back out in the field.
But we find there's no sicknesses or
viruses or anything once they're outside.
Rupert Isaacson: And you've gotâ¦
L- how many, how many sessions
would you say a horse- Would do in
the course of a day normally okay.
Helen Picha: So, the max, I suppose,
a horse would do would be five or
six sessions a day Okay And we would
try to keep rotating them around.
That's very important where we have our
checklist every day, and every staff,
no matter when they take them out, we
have the horse's name down one side,
and all the times are across the top.
So all the staff, it's part of the
training, every time you take a horse
out, you're ticking the box so we can see
every day how much use each horse has got.
Yeah So we make sure no horse is
overused or no horse is underused.
You, you just keeping it balanced all the
time, and you're constantly checking this.
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, I, I think this
is one of the keys of the, of the mental
and physical fitness and soundness, and
it's the reason I'm sort of going at
this a little bit like a terrier- Mm-hmm
is, again, I think this is something that
someone like you might take for granted.
But it's not, it's, it's not necessarily
common knowledge anymore how horses really
stay sound and fit in the legs and in
the mind not just cardiovascular fitness.
And so much of that is about, as you know,
the long slow work on a hard surface.
Mm.
You were brought up with this, I was
brought up with this, this idea that you
don't just want cardio fitness in a horse,
you want tendon fitness- Yeah ⦠in
the same way that you would want that
in a, in an athlete if they were human.
Mm-hmm.
And the way we were all brought
up to do this was long walking and
some, and trotting on firm surfaces.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: This is now largely gone
from a lot of people's riding experience.
Mm-hmm.
A lot of people just riding in arenas now.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So that's why I was
asking you how many how many sessions
they might do because I know from that
sort of three-kilometer- Three ⦠round
that they might do or if they go up the
mountain, I can picture in my mind if a
horse is going to go and do that at the
walk and perhaps at some at the trot four
to five times over the course of the day,
they are going to walk their 10,000 steps.
You know, they, they- Yeah ⦠they're
really gonna get that, which means that-
Mm ⦠they're gonna, and they're gonna
do it in nature, and they're gonna do it
with their friends- Yeah ⦠rather than
round and round in an arena, and they're
gonna do it over varied terrain as well.
So you put all that together,
and what have you got?
You've got t- long slow work on
hard surfaces, tendon fitness.
Yeah.
interaction in their herd environment
in nature, so that's mental fitness.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, and this
is just built into the program.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Rather than
horses being led around arenas-
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: getting less and
less fit, getting less and less sound-
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm
Rupert Isaacson: and then thinking,
"Oh, oh dear, what do we do?"
You know, this horse seems-
Yeah ⦠to be breaking
Helen Picha: down.
It would bo- it'd be very boring
for them as well just go in the
arena It would and just, yeah.
They would just- You know ⦠they
would, you'd, they'd get
depressed from that, like.
Exactly.
And then they, and then
they won't work for you.
It's very important.
You know, it's like ourselves, as I
said, human and horse, very, very alike.
So if we just as humans went around
the same circle all day in arena,
like you'd be depressed going home.
Rupert Isaacson: You would.
Helen Picha: No, I think-
So would your horse be.
Your horse would be depressed
by the end of the day.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It's, it's one of the things we, we,
we put so much emphasis on in the
training is, like, just remember that
the horse, you, the person you're
serving, you're all organisms, you know?
And where, where are
organisms designed to be?
They're designed to be
out on planet Earth.
They're not designed to be doing what
we're doing by a computer screen.
They're not designed to
be sitting in traffic.
They're not designed to be in arenas.
They're designed to be out there on the
planet, and if you don't do that, there
is this massive mental and emotional cost.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And the other thing
is you, as you're so well aware,
is, you know, if we, if our job is
to give wellbeing through horses,
well, how can the horse do that if
it does not have wellbeing to give?
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And I've noticed
with the horses at Liskinagh over
the years, horses that have been, you
know, long-term residents, for example,
like Lady they don't break down.
You know, they- Yeah ⦠they look as good
year to year- Yeah ⦠as they do- They
Helen Picha: look, Lady looks as
good now as she did 11 years ago.
Rupert Isaacson: She does.
Helen Picha: She probably
looks better, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: She's sort of aged-
Helen Picha: Strong, and they all, they
look, they look better, all of them.
They just get lovely and strong, and
a lovely neck, and a lovely back line.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Helen Picha: And they're,
they're sound, and they're happy.
And another thing that helps as
well is, you know, we, we go out
of Liskinagh as well for events.
Mm.
Like in August now, we are
going to Limerick Show.
Mm.
So we take eight of the horses
in there, and it's nice for them
again sometimes to have a day out.
It's like us having a day
out, a day out somewhere else.
Mm.
So something else, something different
completely, and then very important
to have the next day off at home then.
So you have to make sure that
they have their day off, like we
have our day off, they have to
have their day off as well, like.
Yeah.
But to go somewhere else,
you know, they're, this is
a great day for the horses.
They're all excited to go into Limerick
show and everything, and we'll ride
them around, 'cause 10 or 15 minutes
they don't know what's happening
because we'll take in eight of them.
Half of these will be
thoroughbreds that'll go in now
on, on the, in August the 23rd.
But we'll ride them around for
10 or 15 minutes and then they
come back down and they relax.
They realize, okay, we're
in here to do a job.
So we'll have three, three groups of
eight children riding, 24 children
coming in and doing three classes,
and every child will get a rosette
and a certificate and a bag of sweets.
And we'd have two ex-jockeys inside
the middle and they, as if they're
judges, but they're going around talking
to all the children and everything.
So they're delighted, and
the families are delighted.
So there's show jumping going on in all
the other arenas around us, and here's
our eight horses inside in the middle,
taking no notice of all this, doing their
job With the service user and them, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It's brilliant
It's, it's, it's so wonderful.
That, this is, of course,
what inclusion means.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I, I remember,
as you said, two years ago, being
with you, and we all took the
horses out to Limerick Racecourse.
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And I remember
thinking, and, and, and you had your
service users, your autistic kids- Mm
go up there in jockeys' colors-
Helen Picha: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: with short irons
And going into the collecting ring.
And- Mm ⦠I remember thinking,
"Wow, this is, this is ambitious."
Yeah.
Because now we're taking these horses
that have been retrained out of
that environment- Yeah, back into
it ⦠back into that environment.
Mm.
They're gonna think that
they're about to go race.
Helen Picha: I actually
remember Staker Wallace.
So that was his, he's one
of JP McManus' horses.
It was his first time back in a
racecourse since he finished racing.
And so he was walking in.
I, I was a bit conscious of him, so I
was walking near him, and he's 16.2,
qui- grand big bay horse.
But I'm not joking you, he went to 17.2
as he was walking into the parade ring.
Yes.
I said, and the eyes, I said,
"Oh my God, Staker, just relax."
And but then, 'cause the microphone
was on, and literally then within
a half a round or a round of the
arena, of the parade ring, he
just settled back down again.
So he realized, actually,
do you know what?
I'm not going racing here.
I don't have a jockey up on top of
me even though there was colors on.
But he just, for that 10 strides coming
in, he actually grew another hand.
And I said, "Oh, God, I saw him," I said.
But then he just, he came back down again.
I said, "Good boy."
But he just, yeah, he
forgot for a, for a minute.
But he did nothing.
He just said, "Oh, God, I'm back again.
I'm going racing today."
But yeah, no.
It- He did great.
Rupert Isaacson: It, it's so
important to do these kinds of things.
You know, we used to do a lot of
that in Austin when we were li-
you know, had our place in Texas.
We would t- take the horses down
6th Street, you know, which is like-
Yeah ⦠Bourbon Street, in the middle
of the night, you know, and take them
out to meet the revelers and talk to
people about autism and pick up, you
know, volunteers and supporters that way.
And we would take our horses into local
city parks and just- Yeah ⦠set up
and do, like, pop-up play dates for
kids- Yeah ⦠in disadvantaged areas.
Just show up with the horse
trailer, take the horses out.
Mm.
Or we'd take them to
schools, that sort of thing.
And I, I agree with
you, the horses love it.
They love the variety.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
And the, and the more you do of it
then- The better they get every time
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
It's
Helen Picha: a- Because, yeah, they
just say, "Okay, no matter where
we're going, we're going to a safe
environment and there's nothing, we
know nothing's gonna happen," and,
you know, they have fun with it after.
But it's important to do it,
important to do it for the horses, the
children that's coming in, the staff.
You need variety, and you need these extra
little bits to do it, just not the same
monotonous all year round same thing.
Yes.
It's all about changing and learning,
and I'm sure there's still loads of stuff
that we have to learn in Liskeennare
and learn more, and we're always, you
know, we don't pretend we know it all.
We'd always try and learn and
listen to anything new that's
going or how can we make it better.
There are still ways to make
even Liskeennare better.
We just have to be open to
learning it, which we are.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, back, back
to my question about burnout, I think
that too largely also answers it because
not only is, in the course of a day,
is there so much nature and exploration
going on for horses and for humans,
but also I think these, these constant
sort of celebrations, if you like.
They're almost like- Yeah ⦠little
mini festivals through the year.
I know that you guys do a
lot of music shows as well.
Helen Picha: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, th-
Helen Picha: Yeah, usually every year we
do a kind of a fundraising concert, so
it's kind of like November every year.
We done it May now this year.
But even for the staff, that's
just the best fun we have.
There is none of us professional
singers but we can sing.
But we had, this year now was most of
the new staff's first time, and I mean,
they were all, "Helen," and I says,
"Don't worry," but I'd be very kind
of, "We have to prepare for this to
be given out, but I'd be so strict."
I said, "Lads, there's 4
or 500 people in the arena.
We must have our homework
done here, like."
So we do plenty of rehearsals,
which were went off on the day.
Sure they were delighted.
But it's great bonding in a different way.
Mm.
So we're there after work, so we
have to go in and practice after
work, but we have great fun doing it.
So then by the time we would pull
together for the day of the concert,
it, and it all goes and thank God every
year it has went off very well, like.
And then there's just this great,
"Oh, thank God, it was brilliant."
Like, "Oh, Helen, you were right.
We had great time.
We enjoyed it to bits."
And they're beaming from ear to ear.
But we're looking at all, when we're
up on the stage, we're looking out and
it's all the families that come into
us- And they, you know, this year when
they were looking at Padraig and Darren
and Sharon and all the new girls, they
couldn't, they didn't recognize them
first all dressed up because they're
usually there with dirty gear on them.
And here were all the girls with lovely
black mini dresses on and, and the boys
with shirts and ties and everything, and
everybody singing together as a group,
three different songs on the stage.
It was the best fun ever, like.
But it's very important outside
of your equine work that you do
different stuff like this as a
group of people working together.
Mm-hmm.
Like last night, for example, I always
make sure we go out two, t- twice a
year for a celebratory work party.
It was only a few drinks in a pub and
brewery, but there was between ourselves
and the volunteers, nearly 25 people
there, and I arranged finger food
and everybody would get a few drinks.
But sure, everyone had great fun.
But that's- Yeah ⦠just team building
that we do at the end of the summer,
and we do it again for Christmas.
Mm, mm.
And they look forward to it.
They say, "Hey, when are we going again?
When's our next one?"
So we'll put a set of day together,
and again, very important part of
building your team and celebrating
what happened this year and
saying thank you to everybody.
Mm.
And thank you to the volunteers for
helping us build such a good team
and look after so many children
and so many families, and it's
very important to do that as well.
Do you know?
Yeah, the- It's just, it can't,
it can't be all about work.
Rupert Isaacson: The- these
get-togethers, they're so important.
You know, as y- as you know- Oh, yeah
in Horse Boy, we have every
two years we do Tribe Day.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And last
year we did it in Ireland.
In Ireland, yeah.
Next year we'll, I think
we'll probably do it in Spain.
So you have to come to that.
And everyone gets to get together.
Yeah ⦠all the different people
from the Horse Boy world, you
know, all over, get together, you
know, f- for those two, three days,
have the craic together, exchange.
You know, "What have you been up to?"
People present what they've been up to,
but also they're just having fun and
getting to know each other again or-
For sure, yeah ⦠meeting new people.
I do agree, you know, we were
talking about burnout earlier.
All of these things are so
important that the job isn't a job.
You, there's, there's, there's one
last thing I want to talk about, which
is something that's very dear to my
heart and very similar to a project
that we do in Germany every year,
which is our inclusive fox hunting day.
Helen Picha: Oh, yes.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So, and before the
anti-fox hunters in the audience jump up
and down in the comments, don't worry,
we're not having an actual hunting day.
We are simulating the feeling of it.
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And with our one in
Germany, we're, we're going out with a
pack of bloodhounds and we lay the trails
So that the kids who are coming out on
the therapy ponies we have a field of
kids who are doing that who would never
get to experience something like this.
Mm-hmm.
We lay the trail so that the hounds
are hunting in sort of circles around
them, usually hunting one of us.
So they're, they're at
the heart of the action.
And of course the amount of hor- training
we have to put the horses through
for this is insane to make them safe.
But we do because it's so important.
And we've had- Yeah ⦠you know,
people sort of with spina bifida
say, you know, "Wow, I've been, like,
deep in the forest on the horse, you
know, c- crossing ditches, y- doing
stuff, listening to the cry of hounds.
Stuff I would never get to do."
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And then we've
taken it further now where we will
say, "Okay, it's a countryside
day," so we'll have kids from
disadvantaged areas in the local town.
A lot of them are refugee kids, you know?
They're new to the country, they're new
to the countryside, and they'll follow,
you know, in the, in the tractor ride.
And we'll explain to them, "Okay, this is
how the farm works, and we're growing th-
this in this field and this in that field,
and w- here's the wildlife that's living
in that wood, and this is, you know, how
these eggs actually arrive at your door.
And, and then there's a party
afterwards and everyone's invited."
Mm.
Yeah.
And we're always thinking, you know, who
are the people who are gonna be in charge?
Of the country, you know, in the next
30, 40 years it might be these kids.
And if they don't value the countryside,
why, why, you know, they'll pave it over.
Mm-hmm.
So you guys do something quite similar-
Mm ⦠with the Limerick, the L- the-
Yeah, we do ⦠the Limerick Harriers.
Y- talk to us about how that works.
Is it, I think it's- So
Helen Picha: we, we do it every year
between Christmas and the new year.
Mm.
So in Nov- in November now, or
end of October, November, I'll
speak with the hunt that we go
with and we'll set out a date.
So again, last Christmas, we'll say
we had all our horses went in it.
I think we'd 25 horses in it.
And with the children, we try
and rotate them every year, the
children that will ride in it.
So again, we're depending on our
staff and volunteers to come back
in on their Christmas break, 'cause
we finish up before Christmas and
we're back then just in January.
It's the only time of the year now we're
actually closing down in Liskinagh.
We don't close anymore in
the summer or anything.
We keep going the whole time, because
we found when we did close for two
weeks in the summer, those children
and families had nowhere to go.
Mm.
So we, we had a meeting, we discussed,
we said, "No, we'll keep running."
But we do close that
little time over Christmas.
So we come back in then the day before
the hunt, and that's when we have to
prepare and get the horses ready, and
they all have to be ridden and do work
with them and clean them up and that's,
that's the hardest day of work, actually.
But before I'd go on holidays, I'd have
the riders and the horses matched with one
another, get onto all our volunteers that
will help and the staff that will come in.
And again, it's a big,
huge day for the family.
And it's kind of a children's meeting
for the hunt as well, where all the
children that do ride hunting can
come in and they're all dressed up.
It's a fancy dress.
There'd be a prize for whoever'd
win that in the fancy dress.
So we could have, with our 25 horses,
there could be another 60 ponies there as
well, and a lot of them would be led or
s- some children can ride by themselves,
and they're all dressed up in fancy dress.
So we've a huge crowd in Liskinagh and the
f- the dogs will do all our sensory trail.
Now we keep on the trails all around
and double back and over again.
And there'd be some lady
picking out first, second, and
third for the best turned out.
But then it's into the
indoor arena after then.
So we'd have a huge party in there
with food and sandwiches and drinks,
and could go on for a couple of hours.
But again, it's just inclusion, as you
said, and these children will never
get to ride in a hunt atmosphere.
So- Yeah ⦠but they do here, and
they, they look forward to it now
every year, and it's very important
that we come back in during our
Christmas break and we do this event
And yeah, it's, it's very popular
Rupert Isaacson: Again, this is just
not the sort of thing which you find in
your average therapeutic riding place.
Helen Picha: Yeah, no.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah Is they, okay,
let's do an inclusive hunting day.
Let's do-
Helen Picha: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: let's have all
the kids go ride at the local show.
Let's- Yeah ⦠you know, have these
mu- these music- Yeah ⦠shows.
I
Helen Picha: think- They're very,
it's, if you have, it's very important
to get all these different things in
to- Yeah ⦠your therapeutic, just
to have different, to take away the
monotonous of the same thing every day.
Rupert Isaacson: This, and also I
think usually these types of events,
so let's say it's a, a music show.
Let's- Mm-hmm ⦠you know, l- 'cause I
know you get some re- relatively big names
that also come in on these music nights.
Let's say it's a hunting day.
Let's say it's riding at the local show.
Let's say it's riding up the mountain.
These are the sorts of things
which normally the people that we
serve are kind of excluded from.
And then- Yes ⦠if they get to ride,
it's in this sort of hyper-controlled
environment- Yeah ⦠where it's still
very, very clear that, okay, you guys
couldn't handle, like, the real thing.
And there's a sort of underlying
Oh, patronizing but also excluding
message that comes from that saying,
"You guys will never, you know, really
get to participate in the good things.
You'll always have to have
some sort of special corner,
some sort of special niche."
And what you guys are doing there at
Liskin is blowing that to pieces and
saying- Yeah ⦠"No, absolutely."
Yeah.
Whether it's the local show, whether
it's the local hunt, whether it's the
local music show, whether it's going
up the mountain, you're doing it.
We're doing it.
Mm-hmm.
We're doing it together.
But as you say, it's an
insane amount of work.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Like, even the horse is now going to
Limerick Show in the 23rd of August.
They'll know the pattern that
they'll be doing inside, you know-
Yeah ⦠in and out through the
poles or child reaching out, putting
the cone on and different stuff.
But the horse is, already
knows what he's going to do.
And if we have children that are a little
bit more capable, and even on the day,
you see you have all the families around
the outside of the ring looking at this.
But we'd have a leader with every
horse, but our horses are so disciplined
and good now that we can say, okay,
we take them out individually then
to do one little pattern of work.
But m- majority of them will
be taken off the lead for that,
and we just walk beside him.
But the most they do
then is the seat of trot.
So we'd walk in and out through the
little poles, and then we might do the
straight lines across on the seat of trot.
So the staff riding is g-
just going along with them.
And just to giving him that
little bit of independence where
they're doing it on their own
without you hooking onto the rope.
Mm-hmm.
Even that little bit is huge, and the
parents are at the side and they're s-
they're just beaming and they're, they
get- Yes ⦠a lovely certificate at
the end of the day saying, Mary John
has ridden Staker Wallace on Limerick
Show on the 23rd, and they take and
take that home and frame it, like.
Yeah, yeah.
And they get a lovely rosette, a first
prize rosette, and they'll get a bag of
sweets, and we'll have tea and coffee
after and minerals and sandwiches in
the middle of the arena when it's all
over before we take the horses back.
And it's just, it's a lovely family
gathering day out for all the families.
So we'd have 24 families going there
on that Sunday now, and they'll all
support one another in the different
classes, 'cause it's a, 'cause
every half an hour there's a class.
But they'll all support one another's
children in the three classes.
And each child that will be, that
will stay around, some children can't
obviously wait around, but some of
them will, so they'll help one, you
know, it's, it's just again, and as
you said, in the, all the rings around
us, there's show jumping going on.
To know, and there's all, all
the people watching that, but
loads of people will come over
and watch, watch our show as well
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and it
allows the families to participate
in this, the sort of good life-
Helen Picha: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: there
in, in County Limerick.
You know, it's a, it's a rural area.
The, the, the, the fun to be had
is out there and in these shows.
It's in these events.
Yeah.
It's in, it's on the mountain.
It's, it's with the hunt.
It's, it's at the racecourse.
It's doing all these things.
Yeah.
And, or, you know, 20 years ago, these
people would've been completely excluded-
Helen Picha: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: from that.
They
Helen Picha: w- yeah.
They wouldn't have gone
to these shows, no.
Rupert Isaacson: And they'd
have been hidden away somewhere.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So I really
salute what you guys are doing.
I think it's absolutely the cutting edge.
And, you know, anyone who's listening
to this, you know, can you take one
thing from what Liskinitt is doing?
Is it the music and dance room?
Is it getting the kids to your local
show and creating those classes for them?
Is there a local pack of
hounds that you can talk to?
You know, it's very interesting
that the hunting world is often
seen as, and portrayed as something
very exclusive and snobby.
Yeah.
And actually, I think as you found, and
as I've found, it's not like that at all.
If you-
Helen Picha: Not at all, no ⦠i-
Rupert Isaacson: if, they're
often the people who will
bend over backwards the most.
Helen Picha: Yeah, and they are
bending over backwards, and you
know, straight away they'll be on
with, "We'll do this date, Helen, and
we'll bring sandwiches, and weâ¦"
And they just, the whole lot of,
of the, the Limerick Harriers,
they're just all coming together
to make this a really good day.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
You know?
You know, ca- can, is there a, is
there a, a music show that you can do?
Is
there, you know, whatever the,
Liskinitt's doing them all . Yeah.
You know?
There's a lot here to learn, and there's
a lot here to give inspiration to, that
therapeutic riding, equine-assisted work
is not standing in arenas with horses.
It's not leading people around boringly.
It's engaging in life-
Helen Picha: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: through the horse.
Yeah.
Engaging in the equestrian
life of your area and making
that accessible and inclusive.
So I think, you know, you're running
Liskinitt now, but I think you probably
don't quite realize yet, Helen, that
you're probab- you're in this position
now where you sort of now start, need
to start becoming a bit of a consultant
of, and a bit of a trainer of how to
actually deliver this type of service.
Because you do it every day,
you think that that's the norm.
You and I both know it's
not the norm, you know?
Yeah.
Liskinitt's the cutting edge.
W- w- what w- would your advice be to
somebody coming into the industry now,
the equine-assisted industry, knowing
what you know, knowing the types
of services that you guys deliver?
What would you say are the, like
the five fundamentals that people
really need to bear in mind?
Helen Picha: So if you're
coming into work, and it is,
is that what you're asking me-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm,
Helen Picha: mm-hmm ⦠private person?
Rupert Isaacson: N- n- gi- given the
types of, you know, service that you
provide, you know, that you have to think
beyond things like health and safety.
You have to think beyond- Oh,
Helen Picha: yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: things
that you, you, you- If you,
Helen Picha: if you're thinking
everything health and safety,
and it's at the forefront of your
brain, you're gonna do nothing.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Helen Picha: I mean, if you see a
difficult child coming in, you're gonna
freeze, and you're not gonna put them up.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Helen Picha: You have to trust
your staff that you've trained.
You gotta trust your horse, that you
have your horse trained properly.
And you got to have the knowledge to
put your child and your horse together.
Mm.
You know, people said,
"How could you do it?"
But I suppose it's, it's years of
exper- it's experience as well, and just
learn from those that are training you.
If you're interested to
learn, you, you keep learning.
Like, you should be able to ⦠I can tell
from a child coming in, by the time he
comes down to me, what horse I'm gonna put
him in, if it's his first time coming in.
You just know by the anxiety of the
child coming down or if they're confident
and, "I want a big horse," like.
But you'll always, obviously, go for
the safer horse for the first time.
But then they always wanna progress on.
So y- and as your child is progressing on,
the ones that come in every week, you'll
need to progress on with them, like.
You can't just be doing the same,
walking around all the time.
You need to be- Mm
constantly progressing
on with your children.
It's not ⦠We're not a riding school,
but you still need to encourage your
child and give them confidence, and
get them ready- People need purpose,
people need growth, yes ⦠if, if, yes.
If they w- Yeah ⦠if they're ready
to go to the riding school, then
you've done a good job if you've
got, go and get them to there, like.
Mm, mm.
You know, and you have to look
at that, and you have to be
kind and loving and caring.
And the trust that they're, those
families are doing to our staff
every day to give their child to
you to take them out on a horse.
Mm.
That's, they, they really have
to trust you to do this, like.
Mm.
So we have to have our job done before
they give us the child, which is having
your staff trained, having your proper
staff, having your horse where they
should be, like, so that when they go
out, there's nothing gonna happen to them.
But definitely the person that's huge in,
and I know, like, if Michael Hegarty's
listening to me now, health and safety.
Y- yes, health and safety is very
important, but if you have your
homework done- Yes ⦠before your
child comes in, there won't be
any issues with health and safety.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
I, I, I so agree.
I mean, one of
Helen Picha: the things- But you
have to take, you know, yeah.
That you have to have
your homework done first.
Yeah.
And when everything is done right,
y- there won't be any problems then.
Rupert Isaacson: Horsemanship and the
preparation of horses, it, it, it-
Helen Picha: Yes, very important.
Like, we've 88, 80-something acres in
Liskinagh, and I was speaking with David.
So going forward in the plan, we
are hoping to set up a, a training
area away from the Liskinagh.
It's, you know, 'cause we have
80 acres at the other side of the
farm, on the training of actually
horses for- people setting up for,
Yeah ⦠equine therapy centers.
Yeah.
And it's very important that
they're done properly as well.
Like, you know, just, you just
can't pull in a horse and throw a
child up on them with a disability.
No.
It doesn't matter if they're a cob or
a thoroughbred or a small pony, you
have to take them, there has to be a
process before they, you get to there.
And again, as I said, it's like
you said with health and safety,
there won't be any problems if your
homework is done before- Yeah ⦠you
introduce a child to the horse.
Rupert Isaacson: And so much
is also creativity and joy.
Yeah.
You know, I, I, I think that what-
Helen Picha: Your environment
has to be right as well, yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and, and you're,
you're delivering what you do.
You're, you're taking people who are
effectively poisoned by cortisol-
Yeah ⦠poisoned by stress.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And you're
delivering the antidote, you're
delivering oxytocin- That's it
you're delivering serotonin, you're
delivering joy and happiness, which
cannot be done without creativity.
Helen Picha: No.
Rupert Isaacson: It, you know, and
Helen Picha: that's an activity- Do you
know, it's, some people when they come
in first and if the child started crying
on the horse and they'd stop and stand.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Helen Picha: You know what?
You, you keep walking.
You know- Yeah ⦠you're, you're working
on the child, and often a child would
get up and they could start crying in
our place if it's their first time.
But we say, "No, keepâ¦"
We get them up and we keep walking,
and by the time they're halfway
under the arches, they're stopped
and they're smiling and everything.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Helen Picha: So a lot of people
are making the mistake, again, it's
like thinking of health and safety.
"Oh, this child is very upset,
we better take them off."
But you've nothing-
Well- ⦠you've nothing done then.
You, you need to try and keep them, talk
to them- It- ⦠and distract them and
get them walking, get the oxytocin going,
and literally halfway under the arches.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, which
you're talking about 30 yards.
You can
Helen Picha: see the change.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's, as you
know, it's a fine line.
With, with the Horse Boy trainings
we always say follow the child.
If the kid wants down in 10
seconds- Yeah ⦠you let them down.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Or yes, if they're very, you knowâ¦
But if you're, you know, s- there's a
difference if they're distressed- Mm
or if they're just a bit nervous because
they haven't been on a horse before.
Rupert Isaacson: Or having
trouble with the transition.
Yes,
Helen Picha: exactly.
Yeah.
It's just that transition over.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But what I've
often found, I know you found this
too, is that if you let kids in the
early stages particularly, if they
want down, "Okay, just get down."
Mm-hmm.
Then frequently they're, but they walk
along next to the horse with some- Yeah.
Helen Picha: They trust
Rupert Isaacson: you now.
Yeah.
And then they often want back up.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Or they don't
want back up, they run away
to do something different.
They go to your music
studio, they go to whatever.
Yeah.
But then we usually find that
you look up six to eight weeks
later and they're riding.
Yeah.
Because we didn't push
it at the beginning.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, yeah.
You
Helen Picha: don't push, like, push
⦠Rupert Isaacson: but it's, it's, I
think, I think so much of what you're-
Doing that is involving people in, and
horses, in processes of creativity and joy
Helen Picha: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: with this really solid
underlayer of full on professional
horsemanship just to make sure that what
you're, the base you're going from is
sound, and solid, and safe, and happy-
Yeah ⦠and sh- wants to do the job.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But then-
Helen Picha: You know, if you have
a horse and there's, they're notâ¦
You know, if you have a lovely horse and
you see on a day they're sour, they're,
there's usually something wrong with them.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
Helen Picha: Yeah, indeed.
Yeah, that's their way of telling
you, like, "I'm not right today," or,
"I'm tired today," or, like, you also
have to be able to read your, your
horse every day as well, like, so.
Yes.
Not every day they're going
to be perfectly and happy,
Rupert Isaacson: you know?
It's so true, that, that-
Yeah ⦠yeah, follow the child is
als- there's also follow the horse.
Follow
Helen Picha: the horse, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and if
the horse, you're, you're so
right, if a horse tells me-
Helen Picha: Yeah
⦠" Rupert Isaacson: No, Rupert,
not today," I'll always listen.
Helen Picha: Yeah, "Not today."
Yeah.
Just let them off or give
them a feel all over.
They could be sore under the girth.
It could be something very small, but
it's- Mm ⦠enough to agitate them.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Helen Picha: So you have to let them off.
Rupert Isaacson: And you need
to be looking out for that, yes.
Helen Picha: You need- Yeah, you need
to look, you need to look your horse
over from ear to tail every day.
Yeah.
Walking enough to feel sound or not.
Tacking them up, I always tell the
lads, run your hand under the girth.
Like, you think these are
only small things, but this,
this is of years of learning.
Yeah.
Small thing, run your hand
under the girth, that there's
no sores, they're not sore.
Yeah.
They can't be sore anywhere when you're
dealing with children with special needs.
Yeah.
The horse must be clean, sound, happy,
and then ready to work for the day, like,
and nothing sore or nothing wrong with
them, or not- So- ⦠too tired either
⦠Rupert Isaacson: speaking of
happiness, and speaking of joy as
we, we're approaching the two-hour
mark obviously I'm gonna ask you to,
and we'll have it in the show notes,
too, how can people contact you?
How can people contact Liskin?
But before we do that, you
mentioned something about music,
and music shows, and singing.
Mm-hmm.
So I think you know what's,
I'm gonna ask you to do.
Helen Picha: Oh, my God.
You're not gonna ask me to sing, are you?
Rupert Isaacson: I'm totally
gonna ask you to sing.
Oh,
Helen Picha: my
Rupert Isaacson: G- I am so
gonna ask you to sing, and here's
why p- ladies and gentlemen.
Helen is a really good singer.
Helen Picha: I'm not that
good, though, Rupert.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, you are so good.
I
Helen Picha: have to do
literally four months of practice
before we even do the concert.
I'm practicing every night-
Rupert Isaacson: I have heard you- ⦠all
the practice ⦠I have heard you
burst into song- ⦠spontaneously
many times with children and horses,
and get up there on stage and do it.
And I think the point, the reason
I'm asking, it's like David Doyle
when he pulls out his harmonica.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Is it, it brings people
back down to what's actually important.
Now, I know that you know a
particular song by Christy Moore.
Yeah ⦠do you- Ride
Helen Picha: On.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
And I've heard you sing
that song and bring-
Helen Picha: I don't
think I've sang it since.
I'm trying to think of the words of it.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Let's, I'm gonna
pull the words up on my phone here
and, Maybe we can sing it together.
All right.
But I don't claim to be the type
of, the, the singer that you are.
Okay.
So Ride On, Christy Moore.
I haven't heard that one.
Yeah, I know youâ¦
But she's gonna kill me in six-
You're really putting me on the spot
Helen Picha: here
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, I totally am.
You, but you knew I was
gonna do that, right?
Helen Picha: No, I
Rupert Isaacson: wasn't.
Okay.
The lyrics.
Okay.
True, you ride the finest
horse that I've ever seen.
Standing 16, one or two, with
aisles, eyes wild and green.
And you ride the horse so
well, hands light to the touch.
I could never go with you,
no matter how I wanted to.
Right on.
Yeah.
Helen Picha: Ride on,
Rupert Isaacson: see you, I could never
go with you, no matter how I wanted to.
Okay.
Okay.
Helen Picha: I'll do
one but that's enough.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
We'll do, we'll just do one
verse and one chorus, all right?
Helen Picha: Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Shall I count you in?
Helen Picha: Okay, count me in.
Rupert Isaacson: One, two, three, four.
Helen Picha: True, you ride the
finest horse I've ever seen.
Standing 16, one or two,
with eyes wild and green.
You ride the horse so well,
hands light to the touch.
I could never go with you,
no matter how I wanted to
Right on.
Rupert Isaacson: See you.
Helen Picha: I
Rupert Isaacson: could
never go with you no
Helen Picha: matter
Rupert Isaacson: how I wanted to
One more.
Ride on
See you.
See you.
I could never go with you.
I could never go with
Helen Picha: you.
No matter how I wanted to.
No matter how I want to.
Helen.
Rupert Isaacson: Is
Helen Picha: that okay?
Rupert Isaacson: Beautiful.
Helen Picha: Gosh.
Rupert Isaacson: Ah.
But it's just that kind of creativity,
that kind of creative spark that I think
allows you to bring so much joy to so
many through that work at Liskinard.
And I'm so glad you're there doing it.
Thank you.
And I encourage everybody who's
listening or watching, get on a plane
to Ireland, go down to Limerick.
Mm-hmm.
Check out Liskinard
Farm and the work there.
It's the absolute cutting edge, whether
it's inclusion, whether it's the
horsemanship, whether it's the use of
nature, whether it's the movement method,
aspects away from the horse, whether it's
how they engage with the families and
manage to get so many families served.
It, it's breathtaking work.
It is, yeah ⦠as
breathtaking as the beauty of
Helen Picha: your- I, I must say,
I, I'm honored to be working there.
Like as you said, it's, it's not
about the job or the wages around.
Mm-hmm.
You have to love it with absolute
passion, and I can clearly say I
love my work in Liskinard every day.
Mm-hmm.
I love going in.
I love looking after the animals.
Mm-hmm.
I love meeting the families coming in, and
new families when they email or message,
and encouraging them to come in and see
the difference we can make to their lives.
Yeah.
But I also know there, there's
still new stuff that we can
learn to make it even better.
You know, I'm there, I took
over from David two years ago.
I was mentored underneath him for
11 years before that happened.
Mm-hmm.
So, like, this is a process that takes
time, and I am hopefully now the next
person that will take over from me,
please God, will have the same passion
that- Mm ⦠David had and I have
had, and will continue it on for years
and years to come, and it will keep
developing and growing, and hopefully
all other places, like in Turk and,
and the place in Charville, will keep
developing and growing, and having
loads of places for families with
children with autism to go all the time.
Mm-hmm.
That's what we're trying to
achieve, that, you know, on
Sunday they have somewhere to go.
Mm-hmm.
And that's, that's what you need to have
that love and passion in your heart to
help these families, and that's what
it's all about, and that's what you
need to have to work in this industry.
Rupert Isaacson: Couldn't agree more.
All right, my friend, how
do people get in touch?
What's the website?
What's the email?
Helen Picha: So, my email is H-P,
capital H, capital P, I-C-H-A @sjf.ie,
and we also have the horsepie@sjf.ie.
There are two websites And
my number is 086-20-61-626.
Anyone wants to ring me, I'm
available at all times to take
calls from anyone, families.
And if anyone has suggestions of
any new thing that we don't have,
we, we love to hear and how we can
even grow better and do more stuff.
There has to be more stuff even
out there that we haven't done.
And the same with you, Rupert,
you're always learning.
I want to learn more
always, how we can- Yeah
give more and help more families than we
are doing already, and bring in new stuff.
There's always new stuff that
we can learn to help more.
Rupert Isaacson: Helen, it's been
such an honor and so much fun
to connect with you like this.
And because always when I connect with
you, you're so busy getting the job done.
I know.
Well,
Helen Picha: I'm, I'm on
holiday mode now, Rupert.
I'm flying over to
Tenerife tomorrow morning.
Wonderful.
So my, my oldest son lives out
there, so I'm on a well-earned
holiday break at this moment.
Well, well
Rupert Isaacson: deserved.
Helen Picha: So I'm looking forward
to going now, and looking forward
to meeting you in September.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Helen Picha: You're coming over
to us again, and we've some- I am
few more people for you to train
up in the Horse Boy Method.
And yeah.
I'll be there.
Look forward to catching up in September.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Helen Picha: And you'll see then.
Rupert Isaacson: Until then, my friend.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It, it's been wonderful.
Fly well, rest well.
I will.
I won't, like David,
give you homework to do.
Helen Picha: While I'm on holiday.
I'll be still worrying, wondering- Good
how they're getting on in Kentork
on the 11th, but I'm sure they,
they'll all do it fine anyway,
and hopefully it'll go off well.
It's a huge- Yeah ⦠huge thing
for us now the Turning of the Sod
on the 11th of August, and there's
a lot of people going to that.
So yeah, it's great.
Rupert Isaacson: We need to celebrate it.
All right.
Maybe, maybe I'll be able to get
David on the show to talk about it.
You never know.
Helen Picha: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: The day I get David
Doyle on this podcast, 'cause he won't
talk is, well, it'll be a miracle,
but I'm gonna keep working on it.
All right, my friend.
All right.
Okay.
Thank you
Helen Picha: very much,
Rupert, and thank you
Rupert Isaacson: for having me.
Thank you.
See you soon.
Okay.
Okay,
Helen Picha: see
Rupert Isaacson: you.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.
I hope you enjoyed today's
conversation as much as I did.
If you like what we're doing here,
please do like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It so helps us to get this valuable
work done and the message of
Equine Assisted Stuff out there.
And if you're interested in more
conversations, you might want to check
out I'll live free ride free podcast.
And if you'd like to support the
podcasts, please go to rupertisakson.
com and click on the Patreon link.
If you're a professional in the equine
assisted field or considering a career
in the equine assisted field, you
might want to check out our three
certification programs, horseboy
method, movement method, and taquin.
Equine integration.
You can find all of those over
on new Trails learning.com.
And finally, if you want to check
out our cool rock and roll themed
merch back on rupert isaacson.com,
please click on Shop.
You'll find all kinds
of fun goodies there.
And if you're looking for a way to spend
time until the next podcast, you might
want to consider reading the books that
kicked all this off The Horse Boy, the
Long Ride Home and The Healing Land.
So see you next time on Equine Assistant.
world.
Join us for the adventure.