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Telling the stories of startup founders and creators and their unique journey. Each episode features actionable tips, practical advice and inspirational insight.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:21:15
Where somebody who is following a founder has done it before. They come into a new scenario and they're like, well, I know how to do this. So they go and get the crew from the old company and where they did it. Yeah, they go and get the product leader. They get the band back together. Yeah. I don't love that way.
00:00:21:17 - 00:00:43:20
Right. I see it too much. As human beings, we get comfortable and I'm like, hey, Peter and I, we had a great run back. We we got a three and a half, you know, return on invested capital took six months off, blah, blah, blah. He's my guy. He finishes my sentences. Here's the thing. No two companies are the same and no two cultures are the same.
00:00:43:22 - 00:01:04:20
And you and I go, well, remember what we did in Acme. We're just going to do it now. Over here at Joe Blow doesn't work. You know, or like I call the Red wagon, the staff show up at the park and say, I got my runway, shovel, pail, water. This is what I do. Yeah. As opposed to looking at situations differently.
00:01:04:22 - 00:01:14:09
So the takeaway for the board and the hiring decisions are you have to use a scorecard for the role for the company.
00:01:14:09 - 00:01:24:05
Welcome to the Founders Journey podcast. Inspiration education for Founders by Founders.
00:01:24:08 - 00:01:43:10
Welcome back to the Founders Journey podcast. I'm Peter Dean. I am your host today. Greg is, with his family, taking care of stuff. So I'm going to take over. And this Greg would say, be careful because I talk too much. So I'm going to try to ask a lot of questions of Matt. Our guest, Matt shares.
00:01:43:12 - 00:02:08:21
He was, executive chairman at SBI. Currently, the growth advisory, where he was the second CEO. And that's really important. That's something we're going to talk about in a minute. He's a managing partner at TJ advisory. I love what it stands for. Enjoy the journey. It's something a lot of founders and entrepreneurs and everyone really needs to think about in the business world.
00:02:09:02 - 00:02:41:00
And he was a former VP of sales at Cintas. That is not a small endeavor by any means, but I think most importantly, for this podcast, he's an author of a book, the Second CEO. It's a really important topic, for founders, for investors, private equity, for everyone involved. Because at some point, if you're a founder, you're going to get to the point where if you have built a really beautiful, scalable business that will continue beyond you, you're gonna have to turn it over to someone.
00:02:41:01 - 00:03:00:23
So that's a really important thing. I know it's not a simple thing for founders to do. Because it's an emotional journey. But we're going to talk about, what it's like to be the second CEO, but also kind of that transition today. So, Matt, thanks for coming. Thanks, Peter. Yeah, great. Great to be with you. You know, my, send my best to Greg.
00:03:01:01 - 00:03:22:05
Hopefully always, works out for him with the family. But hopefully we can have a little fun and offer your listeners some value. Definitely. So what inspired you to write this book, and why do you think that concept of a second CEOs is crucial in today's kind of business landscape? Well, I woke up and recognized how many mistakes I made, and I thought, you know what?
00:03:22:11 - 00:03:51:01
I can if I could share these with somebody and they can avoid the potholes, that would be good. All kidding aside, I, I, I looked at it through a couple of lenses. One was when I was leaving the role of CEO and moving to the chairman role. And I was fortunate that when we partnered with CIP capital, part of our and part of my thesis, parting with them was, hey, I'm going to be the leader of the business.
00:03:51:03 - 00:04:20:01
Probably through the the front line. Right. Peter, you and I are golfers, right? Yeah. But for the back nine, I want to transition because before I'm 50, I would like to be able to have more control of my time, to be able to, my wife and I will be empty nesters at that time, which we are now, to be able to just enjoy life work is going to be a component of my wife, but it's not going to be the defining component of my life, which I can honestly say, building and growing a firm like SBI.
00:04:20:03 - 00:04:43:02
It was the main thing and at times 2 or 4. So in doing that and then taking some time away, when I stepped into the chairman role and I went through, a couple of different programs, the half time program, really thinking about, like, what are we going to do next? Right. You know, I got good health. I got some flexibility and optionality in my life.
00:04:43:04 - 00:05:06:17
I felt like that topic made sense for me. Number one. Two, I was doing board work for private equity back boards, and I had sitting on four of them and three of the four, I was helping a CEO navigate to a second CEO, and I was sharing what I learned with Greg Alexander, who was my partner, and our first CEO.
00:05:06:19 - 00:05:34:02
Also, just what I learned in studying the topic to upskill myself after making some mistakes. Things from my coach, Tim Stratman, and I thought, you know, maybe this is it. Maybe I need to codify a methodology and approach. Write this book. Not because I'm starting a new coaching business of hundreds of coaches, Peter, like I do that now, but it's a solo preneur a component that I do as part of my TJ platform.
00:05:34:04 - 00:05:55:14
Unknown
I don't have multiple coaches. I kind of pick and choose what I work on and it's it's really fun. So part of it was passion. Part of it was giving back, and I felt like the world needed the book. Nobody had ever written something so niched. So I thought, I'm going to write a book that only 186 people read, but the 186 people are going to really dig it.
00:05:55:16 - 00:06:18:02
Yeah, it's an important thing. I mean, again, I'll speak for Greg because if he was here, he'd be telling you about his story. He was the founder of a company, went through a bunch of transitions, acquisitions, grew organic growth, got to, I believe, around 200 people exiting the private equity. Still stuck around for a couple of years.
00:06:18:02 - 00:06:41:09
But that transition on him as a person was really hard when he was getting ready to kind of hand it over. It's the next stage of a business really needs. He was a he's a real like, founder type CEO. That took it to a point and it just wasn't as fun for him anymore. Right. And this is me talking as a friend watching it happen right.
00:06:41:11 - 00:07:15:14
Wasn't fun. And so how do you how does the CEO get ready? Because even though it wasn't fun, he was just deeply, personally connected to a lot of things in that company. Yeah. You know, Peter, it is I mean, that is the question. And I will tell you now, between the research we did for the book and all of the founders and second CEOs we interviewed, because what I ended up learning is there was this community of people, not that was a community, but like a bunch of people who are really good at following founders.
00:07:15:15 - 00:07:40:10
And some I featured in the book who have this amazing level of EQ combined with IQ to navigate that. And it was I was so blessed to learn from Jake Silverman, Alex Schuman. Carl will like just amazing, amazing guys. But I think for the founders, people can tell you what it's like. You don't know until you're in it.
00:07:40:12 - 00:08:02:03
Yeah. And I know that for a fact because, Peter, I can even tell you, you know, I joined the original founders of SBI as the first employee, became a partner. We grew the business together for over a decade. And when I handed the reins over to Mike Hoffman, I went through my own. Oh my goodness. Right. I have four children.
00:08:02:03 - 00:08:21:18
SBI was my fifth. Yeah, I'm still chairman of the company, large shareholder, and I still care about it. Think about it. But two years removed kind of got to the other side. And, you know, I'm a large investor and I sit on the board, but I'm able to remove myself from the day to day operating. That is not easy.
00:08:21:20 - 00:08:42:23
And that's part of why in the book we talk about like a founder who fully exits versus a founder who takes liquidity and stays on the board, versus a founder who takes liquidity, stays in the seat, versus a founder who goes not really a good CEO. I just want to design products or work with clients and then goes back as an operator.
00:08:43:01 - 00:09:06:11
Those are four different use cases for a second CEO still to navigate this enormous personality, this business from scratch. Is there an easier one for them to transition, like if you're a product based CEO? Now I'm had a product and they maybe that was their baby all along and maybe they didn't like some of the other things they had to do as a CEO.
00:09:06:13 - 00:09:29:19
Yeah. Is that an easier one or is I would tell you, Peter and I observed this in two decades of being around private equity and watching transitions. So I guess as part of the diligence work I would do. And now with the book, I would I recommend to every founder taking an operating role. Terrible. It's bad.
00:09:29:21 - 00:10:04:06
It's bad for you. It's bad for the business. Secondly, if you stay on in a involved role on the board, most private equity firms would say 6 to 12 months and then you're just a board member and that is it. You have to give the CEO room. One of the advantages I had at the time, I actually thought it was a disadvantage when we transacted the first time Greg was gone, got his money left, and initially he was like, oh my goodness, right, what am I going to do?
00:10:04:06 - 00:10:33:15
And he did all these things I didn't do, and I did these things he didn't do. And we were kind of a, A1A, one B. And Aaron Bartels, yeah, no co-founders was kind of one C. And that was our trifecta because Mike, one of the other original partners, had gotten sick and he was working about half time when I realized is with Greg, being gone was actually good because it allowed me to have some failure quickly, not have him there to kind of pick me up, not have him there, to have the employees call him and go, hey, I think Matt made a mistake.
00:10:33:17 - 00:10:52:07
He was like a clean break and that was Greg's is Greg's personality. And having lived that, even though my first year I made a bunch of mistakes, it also prepared me and the company. We got on a pretty good glide path where the next four years were pretty good run, and I kind of got I got my CEO stripes.
00:10:52:09 - 00:11:32:11
Yeah, and to me that is a better approach than like this quasi half. Then I kind of own this. I kind of own that. And I see some people do that. It creates confusion for the employees. And for the second CEO, it never lets them spread their wings. That's a really good point because I've seen that so many times where you have two CEOs sitting there, the person that that built it, and then the person who's running it now, and it's just I've never seen any good at that was it's like some people are still going to them to the old CEO, and they're still kind of acting like a CEO because they they're
00:11:32:11 - 00:11:56:05
connected to those people in a very specific way. And that gets in the way of a CEO saying, hey, here's what we're doing today, because you need to lead me to let them lead. That's really interesting. So another aspect that, we had a question, because there's a CEO that we had on, that said, the culture of a company is really driven by that founder a lot.
00:11:56:07 - 00:12:16:06
And it's like a founder culture. And people come to follow that person. What are some things that you've seen with culture in that scenario? Because you you just said that you're very different than, you know, your partner, who is the CEO at the time and kind of had to transition a little bit there. But what about culture and how does that work?
00:12:16:08 - 00:12:37:00
Yeah, it's a big one. And we talk about that in the book a lot. One of the things I recommend Peter to second CEOs is you have to respect, honor and take the best of that. You got the team from 0 to 1, right. If you kind of think about that chapter. Right. Well-known book from Peter Thiel.
00:12:37:00 - 00:13:03:03
Right. So everyone but then you have to go from culture fit to cultural evolution. And when you were building your leadership team. So you kind of think about the mandates of the CEO. They own three things culture, strategy and team. So when you think about culture and the fact that the fish sticks from the head, so whoever is at the top, the business will take on the ethos of that individual.
00:13:03:05 - 00:13:35:02
If they're a commercial person, the business will be will tilt that way. Right. They're a little more operational. The business will tilt that way. One's not better than the other right now. The recognition that you're also you're always aspiring, right, from a cultural standpoint. But one of the things that I wanted to to do with SBI, we had our transition was signified with a transaction where we now had a professional investor, and that investor needed a return on their money.
00:13:35:04 - 00:14:02:05
And we had debt service every single month up to the first ten, 11 years. We didn't have it. So everything changed. Whether people wanted to believe it. And my partners or I want to believe it, it's like, guys, rule number one, we have to return capital to shareholders and investors. That is our primary responsibility. Now, it's not about maxing out distributions for us, the partners and being able to throw epic parties and can't count those days.
00:14:02:07 - 00:14:34:12
Those days are done. So you have to take on this concept of future back. What do we want to look like? Have the culture start to evolve, the values that determine how people behave, evolve, and continue to look about, hey, I know what got us here. Respect, honor, and it's time to move to the next step. And so sometimes, and I've heard, this said many times by CEOs that have gone through this process, some CEOs continue right during the growth.
00:14:34:12 - 00:14:56:17
And maybe you, you're a $10 million company, and then you get to a $50 million company. Maybe you haven't had an exit. And so you're still together. But people need to change because the process is different. The scale is different. The skill sets are different. I mean, that probably naturally goes along with what you're talking about because you don't normally I mean, there's a lot of reasons for exit, right?
00:14:56:17 - 00:15:24:08
It could be a lifestyle business that's significant scale. And, you know, someone wants to retire, right? It's like, I need to hand this over to someone. But more, more often it's some other transaction that happens, at least that we see. How do you think of the people in that? Because the team could change. Like Matt's team probably be different than Peter's team because he just has a different leadership style and was filling gaps around himself.
00:15:24:13 - 00:15:52:02
If he was doing a good job, you probably don't need the same things, but you need other things that, you know. Maybe I didn't have this. It was a transition, right? Totally. Yeah. So I think when I think about that, Peter, there's the there's so much written about software companies, you know, getting to a million and they're getting to 5 million and are hiring your first go to market leader product.
00:15:52:04 - 00:16:27:21
There isn't as much written in professional services, which was the business that SBA used to say, hey, is it 0 to 5 million? Is it 0 to 10? Is it 2 million in real adjusted EBITDA? If you're running a 20%, even a business, or if you're running a 40%, even a business is a 5 million. So what I looked at or what I look at is sort of the the evolutions where if the founder or the founder have been able to replace themselves, this was something that Greg and Aaron, who were the two original founders with Mike.
00:16:27:23 - 00:16:55:23
This is something they all focused on. It's like, hey, can we each hire our replacements and get out of doing and get into leading? So it's like a really simple litmus test. And a professional services firm lead first, do second, right versus are you still sourcing all the business? Are you actually delivering client engagements? If you're fingers on keyboard in a $20 million professional services firm, you haven't hit scale.
00:16:56:01 - 00:17:13:12
You need to be you need to be working on the business, not in the business. And there's a lot of founders I still know in services firms who do that. Either part of the they no one can do it like I can do it part of the I'm not sure I want to share and bring that payroll in on the business.
00:17:13:14 - 00:17:34:18
Right. There's a variety of things where you get to this point where eventually you go, I think we need some professional institutional capital and my my partner Greg now started this membership business for professional services firms. And he kind of talks about the arc of 15 years. Right. The first five is growth. The next five is scale and the last five is exit.
00:17:34:20 - 00:17:58:03
And I think that's directionally correct. Yeah. It's interesting. We had a guest, that we interviewed yesterday and so it's not out yet, but, he said that you to know that you're ready to sell your business, you need to be able to go on a three, three week vacation. He said, I would talk to anyone and if you can go on a vacation and not talk to anyone and come back and it's still okay.
00:17:58:05 - 00:18:22:05
Yeah, yeah. He says, your litmus test is you're good. It was kind of funny you said that, but, so there's there's a lot of challenges that these companies have when transitioning to a second CEO. Are there specific growth and scaling challenges that a second CEO should anticipate? Yeah, I think there's a couple, that we saw highlighted.
00:18:22:07 - 00:18:46:13
Peter, if you think about I talk about like the three transitions. Yeah, the transition trifecta that somebody has to make. And those three are as follows. Number one, if you're an inside promotion, you have to leave the job you were doing right. So that's a process in kind of a transition. Then you got to get into the CEO job and onboard and actually learn how to be effective.
00:18:46:15 - 00:19:12:01
And then number three is team. You now go from being a member of the team to being a leader and a coach of the team. That is also a new transition. So those three transitions for an internal role versus an external where I come in. Right. What I need to now do if I'm external, instead of transitioning out of my old job, I got to learn the business and win the customers.
00:19:12:05 - 00:19:29:13
I got to get credibility. I got to, as the guy who took over for me would say, I got a dog to the bottom of the pool and figure out this business. Yeah, I still have to do the other two things. So I kind of think about those three transitions inside versus outside, and then those use cases as what needs to be done.
00:19:29:13 - 00:19:55:22
And then you can pretty much assume, that 50 to 75% of the leadership team that supported the CEO in 12 to 18 months will be different than that which supports you, the second CEO, through attrition and changes and all these. Yeah. Just happens. Right? Yeah. I mean it's that that kind of makes sense. We've I've seen that happen a lot.
00:19:56:00 - 00:20:13:17
So you said I'm you're talking about that transition. Is there a time frame that makes sense? Like is there a time where it's like, whoa, this is taking too long? Or is there like a healthy time frame? Because I know, you know, investors or people are going to want to do it quick, right? Everyone's like, okay, we need to do this.
00:20:13:17 - 00:20:33:16
But, you know, they've been around. They're going to know there's a time frame. What time frames are you thinking? Yeah. Where it feels comfortable and everything's moving in a new direction. And the start of year two. Yeah. The second CEO should be able to clearly articulate. So I'm starting with the headline and I'll work backwards. At the previous four quarters.
00:20:33:18 - 00:20:57:13
They should be able to clearly articulate and say okay in the first 90 days. Here's what I learned. Did my assessment, saw some quick wins. The next 90 days I hardened our value creation plan. I recognize my team members, a couple that I probably needed to move quickly on, a couple that were wait and see, right, and a couple that I'm like, oh yeah, they're here for the long haul.
00:20:57:15 - 00:21:21:20
By the end of year one, I was able to make those transitions happen. We've hardened the strategy. I know where we play and how we win. I understand our top three levers of how this business creates value. And if private equity back returns capital to shareholders. Yep. And this is the team and the scorecard of those members that will deliver it.
00:21:21:22 - 00:21:42:15
So if I was a board member of private equity firm day one of year or two, the CEO might not have everybody in place, but they probably know by month 18. Hey, now, I didn't move on the Chief people officer. It wasn't on fire, but I'm probably going to move on him or her in the next 90 to 120 days.
00:21:42:15 - 00:22:00:07
But I had to get all those other things. I had to fix product. I got a new product leader, had to get go to market centered. Now that's starting to roll out in an outside firm. We got some quick wins. Now I'm going to do that. And month 18 and forward you have your team, you have your strategy.
00:22:00:07 - 00:22:26:12
You are an execution mode right. If you're in like a complete, you know, turnaround dumpster fire probably needs to be a little faster. Right. But I would think there's only so much change you can fit through the garden hose with human beings. Yeah. And so that sounds pretty reasonable. I mean, after a year, you probably have a really good idea of what are the areas or the levers that you can pull and where you really need to focus.
00:22:26:14 - 00:22:53:03
Well, and Peter, something fixed, right. You kind of go culture. You get a sense of what the culture is. You now define the strategy, where to play and how to win. And then you make the moves on your team. If you do those three things correctly in the first 18 months, 12, 18 months, the next two and a half to three and a half years, yeah, you're going to have to make some changes, but they're not going to be transformations.
00:22:53:05 - 00:23:19:21
Right. The most overused word in private equity. Yeah. They're going to be natural evolutions of changing out people making decisions, hitting a milestone, going to the new milestone. But part of this is the new CEO needs to go from the team to to his or her team. Yeah. Question. So you've been through this. You've also studied it and you've helped people go through this.
00:23:19:23 - 00:23:40:17
Do you have like a story? You don't have to give names or companies, but like the story from looking back, I mean, we learn so much from watching failure or success. Yeah. And either one like maybe an example of both, like what was a situation that you saw happen and how can, how can we learn from it?
00:23:40:17 - 00:24:00:10
What what was the failure point where it didn't work? Yeah. Because I have seen second CEOs show up and then they're gone, like, yeah, I've seen them gone in eight months. And then that's really tough for that team that's still there because the founder's gone. The second CEO is now gone and they're wondering, hey, what are we going to do?
00:24:00:10 - 00:24:22:00
I've seen that. But what are some of the failure points. And one of those things that we can avoid? Yeah. So I'll tell you, I'll start with the failure and I'll keep it anonymous. Okay. But it's a real one. I talk a little bit about it in the book, but I, I redacted it for, purposes of, of just keeping people anonymous.
00:24:22:02 - 00:24:41:12
And you have a situation where somebody who is following a founder has done it before, they come into a new scenario, and they're like, well, I know how to do this. So they go and get the CRO from the old company. They were they did it. Yeah. They go and get the product leader. They get the band back together.
00:24:41:14 - 00:25:03:16
Yeah. I don't love that play. Right? I see it too much. As human beings we get comfortable and I'm like, hey, Peter and I, we had a great run back. We we got a three and a half, you know, return on invested capital took six months off, blah, blah, blah. He's my guy. He finishes my sentences. Here's the thing.
00:25:03:18 - 00:25:30:13
No two companies are the same and no two cultures are the same. And you and I go, well, remember what we did in Artemis? We're just going to do it now over here at Joe Blow doesn't work. So there's a situation I spoke about where that happened in a private equity backed software environment of a notable firm in company, where there was so much damage done because of running.
00:25:30:15 - 00:25:52:16
You know, our like I called the red wagon effect. You show up at the park, you say, I got my red wagon shovel pail water. This is what I do as opposed to looking at the situation objectively. So the takeaway for the board, when the hiring decisions are you have to use a scorecard for the role for the company.
00:25:52:18 - 00:26:23:13
Forget the resume of the person coming in. That's interesting. But I got a future back of the current business. And, you know, Get Smart is is the people I use all the time to build a scorecard, help you look objectively at the people you're bringing in. They did a crazy workup on myself and multiple people in our business, and the reason why they are the best, in my opinion, that leadership assessment is they come to you with this objectivity of who you are.
00:26:23:13 - 00:26:55:19
Get it? So I think that's the the failure, the positive. I, I've seen Peter would be a business that I spoke about in the book called Insight to Profit, which is a private equity backed pricing consulting firm. It's a firm that I got to know very well. We were kind of frenemies, if you will. But the guy who was my peer, Ryan, who was a founder and CEO for a long time when he was moving into the chairman role, he was so methodical about finding the right second CEO.
00:26:55:21 - 00:27:19:19
He actually took one of the board members to be interim CEO for a period of time, because he knew he wasn't going to run the company. He needed a set of things for about 12 months, and he was relenting on the particulars scorecard and the competencies of hiring. Carl found an amazing guy in that business has continued to kill it.
00:27:19:21 - 00:27:46:20
The takeaway there with Ryan was self-awareness that he could move himself out. Humility to say, you know what? I'm not the guy. I'm not going to dive back in and keep running the business because I got a huge ego, patience. Right? And he and his board being on the same page. It's a it's just a great story. Your first, example, there's a lot of potential pitfalls that like bringing the band back together.
00:27:46:22 - 00:28:11:21
If you're someone sitting in that company, coming from the success that gotten to where they are, and all of a sudden there's a new band, right? And you're not a member, right? You weren't part of that band. You weren't on that CEO's journey. But you're currently on the CEO's journey now. Like that's there's a lot of risk there, right, for causing problem because the team that's executed all along is the one that's still there.
00:28:11:21 - 00:28:36:05
Right. And Peter, here's what you hear. And I see it I see it in software. Yeah. Oh yeah it's it. And so what ends up happening is you've got company A where the band was successful. Now they come to company B and all they want to do is tell Company A's stories. Hey Peter. Remember, remember how we ran forecast.
00:28:36:08 - 00:29:21:19
Hey remember what. Right. And so they're, like, personifying how brilliant they all were on the other end. And then everyone's just like, dude, would you shut up? We don't care. Yeah. You're on a new team. Get on. Unfortunately, as a, you know, I'm a consulting services side, so I understand and share some of your journey. My EBITDA is not that big yet, so I don't have to worry about it today, but, the I've been part of the band and it's I've looked around and as a, a service company that's used to being on multiple teams, you kind of see that you're like, whoa, this is not what they think it is or it's
00:29:21:19 - 00:30:00:18
not the same. And then you see that band coming back together and it's it's it's it's not good because we work with everyone else on the band that were on the band before, because they're the ones with the answers. Right? Totally. And you can see the dysfunction and yeah, it's it's a scary thing. So I think you're, you have really sage advice with the fact that like build a new band, you know, it's simple and in fact, you'll have more people in your network if you do that any parting thoughts for founders and how they can set their companies up for success for that inevitable next second CEO?
00:30:00:18 - 00:30:23:00
Like what are some suggests or, in addition to that, what are some of these, companies that have scale to that point and maybe the private equity companies, how they can think about this problem? Because a lot of times it's it's a problem they need to solve because they're the new money, right? Yep. Here. So it's three things.
00:30:23:01 - 00:30:53:12
Number one, self-awareness. You got to have enough self-awareness. And to say just because I started it and I got it to this point doesn't mean I have to keep doing it. Yeah. Right. Number two, humility to recognize that the show will go on and can go on without you. Right. And I when I'm saying this with complete, you know, cards face up, I went through the same issue going,
00:30:53:14 - 00:31:17:20
Man, I don't know, man. I was here from, you know, day two with, original founders of SBI. Nobody can do it the way I do it. You got to get over yourself. Yeah, yeah. So I made that mistake. And then number three is vulnerability to ask for help. You're a great founder. You're not necessarily a great board member or picker of talent.
00:31:17:21 - 00:31:38:20
So ask for help. Pick up the phone and call the guy smarts. Or pick up the phone and call somebody like you and get objectivity. It's not about, you know who's right, it's about what's right. So those are be my parting thoughts I love it. It's not about who's right, it's about what's right. Yeah, that's really important.
00:31:38:21 - 00:32:02:08
And that takes humility to kind of see that, and certainly, fortunately and unfortunately, for all of us, companies are made of really awesome human beings, and us humans have emotions and they're tied to things. And this is really important. So if you are going through this process, if you're thinking about going through this process, you should definitely read that book.
00:32:02:10 - 00:32:24:05
I'm going to read it. I've, I've read excerpts and parts of it, but I'm really fascinated by this because, being someone who's very involved with private equity and we usually bring us in to kind of revamp, go to market strategies on the, you know, marketing side, when they have new, you know, new CEO and where are we going to how are we going to take this to the next level?
00:32:24:05 - 00:32:50:14
I'm in part of those new bands and old bands. So, this is really important stuff. How do people get in touch with you? Matt. Yeah, easiest way to just go to LinkedIn and get me. Right. So I have a very I have a very uncommon last name. So shar ers just message me directly. And, as I said, I wrote the book from a heart level.
00:32:50:16 - 00:33:04:15
And hopefully it's helpful. So, Peter, thank you. Yeah. Thank you for a job with your show. Thank you. I you speak so directly to people. Yeah. Cool. Keep up the contributions in the great work. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much. Okay.