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The Tracks Nobody Sees, But Every Marketer Should Hear.
This podcast celebrates the hidden gems of marketing insight found across all professions—both within and beyond traditional marketing roles. Just as B-sides on a single contain brilliant tracks that are treasured by true fans, every profession contains marketing wisdom that isn't obvious at first glance but is incredibly valuable when discovered.
Tom Hootman (00:05)
Welcome to The Marketing B-Sides Lodge We have a little fire going It's negative a million gajillion degrees outside But we're warm in here with all the atmosphere of a ski lodge
Indiana, my friends. ⁓ Thanks for joining me. I'm excited about today's guest. say that every time, but I really, truly am. For those of you who are joining us for the first time, this is the Marketing B-Sides. I'm your host, Tom Hootman. I'm also the CEO and founder of Mixtape Digital, which is a delightful paid media influencer SEO agency based here in Bloomington, Indiana.
Although I'm the only one in Bloomington, Indiana remote work. Embrace it, my friends. This is the podcast where I say it every time, every single fucking last one of ya is a marketer and you just don't know it. And you also, also I'll say none of us pretend to even remotely have it figured out because you're all just faking it despite all the acronyms you pretend to fucking know that you don't really know. Trust me. I know you're all in another tab trying to figure out.
What that last acronym the prospect said means. Calling out, I mean, I'm like fired up today. Why am I so angry? So old school, Tom. Yeah. Today's guest I just found randomly on the Internet. I love this. Love it. Love it. Love it. I spend way too much time on LinkedIn because I'm a nosy bitch.
And I just want to know what's happening in all of your lives. And I try to decipher what's bullshit and what's real. And I came across this individual who was just engaging and brilliant and self-deprecating and had the right, she just got it. The right blend of like professionalism with reality. because I'm a sociopath, I was like, hey, this person's just like me.
It's true So I reached out to her and we caught up and we caught up another time and I was like hey I think this you would be an amazing guest on the podcast and I wasn't wrong because I'm never wrong Today's guest is Sophie Hunter So Sophie Hunter is a Mancunian and I just learned that term. She lives in Manchester UK She's a transplant, but she's been there long enough
that she's probably no longer a transplant. She's the founder of Sorella Creative. She has a decade of experience in marketing and a background in therapy, psychotherapy. Again, near and to my heart, because I'm married to a therapist. Sorella specializes in building organic social media strategies.
What's beautiful about this is like, that's just adjacent to what Mixtape Digital does, right? We have some amazing organic social partners that we work with. Shout out Social Bodega
Hi Vic, Hi Erica. But also close enough that there are so many similarities in the approach, the clients, what great clients look like, what bad clients look like. And more than anything else, I just loved the feel I immediately got from the content. So we met and we hit it off immediately because she gets it. She also battles a lot of the stuff I battle.
⁓ transparently in terms of the sheer amount of time, effort, energy, consternation, anxiety that I put into every single LinkedIn post because we want it to matter and be true. we also, have a great conversation at the onset. If you listen to this for anything, listen to it for the conversation about, Manchester bands. She also picks my favorite song.
of no offense to any other guest, of any guest, because it's a song I love and I'd completely forgotten about. It's brilliant, she's just brilliant. So, welcome to America, we say everything's brilliant, you're amazing and you're awesome, and we overuse those things, and we like exclamation points, I don't apologize for it. She's fantastic, it's a really wonderful conversation and...
full transparency, we dive into a bit of what it's like to step out of a role in a larger org into a role as an individual contributor or small org when it's just you and you have to make the decisions or you have to make the decisions and you battle neurodivergency because I'm really upfront and honest about the fact that I'm neurodivergent. I have adult ADD and it
has been something that I didn't realize I had until I stopped working in outside sales, restaurants, and retail, because I was always on the go. And I love talking to people who are working through similar elements of self-discovery, self-affirmation, and battling some of the internal monologue of anxiety that they work through. And as we worked through our conversations, it was something that I wanted to include, and I appreciate Sof being open to including it.
because I know that there's a lot of people who also work through this. ⁓ it's a wonderful conversation. as always.
Send me hate mail, throw rocks at my house, recommendations, feedback, just drop five stars on it, you lazy sod. And let us know what you think. Enjoy.
Tom Hootman (04:52)
Thanks for joining us. We're going to... So the last couple of times I've recorded, I've gotten to like the fun questions way too late. So I want to jump into them. ⁓ Because of Mixtape Digital, because my first job was at a music store in a shopping mall and I was the coolest kid in high school in the late 90s.
Soph (05:00)
Yeah, let's do
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (05:10)
mid 90s.
I love music. So I like to ask everyone this. What is if your if your career could be distilled down into like a playlist, right? What are you know, one to three to five to 12? I don't care. What songs or albums would you put on that?
Soph (05:18)
Mm-hmm.
I'm going to split into two parts. I'm going to talk about maybe my life in-house working in fast fashion and then my life as a freelancer because I feel like I can kind of distill my career down to two kind of major eras, let's say. So for in-house working in fast fashion, think like...
Tom Hootman (05:35)
I love it. No.
Soph (05:50)
just for the vibes, think Devil Wears Prada, the movie. It's a stereotype for a reason, but I think the song, like the singular song I would probably go for is Brutal by Olivia Rodrigo.
Tom Hootman (06:03)
That's an impeccable.
Soph (06:03)
It's a little bit angsty
to me. feel like it probably sums up the feeling of putting a lot in or yeah, putting a lot into it and not getting out what you think you're supposed to be getting out or wanting to get out of it. And how that song makes you feel is kind of like, yeah, I think even just the title, Brutal It was brutal.
Tom Hootman (06:24)
I can tell you this in all honesty,
that is my favorite pick so far of all the podcasts. It is like a, that song is a guilty pleasure of mine. I love that song. To death.
Soph (06:28)
really?
Me too. As
a former Avril Lavigne girlie, yeah. Because I'm very much a millennial, but I feel like that's quite Gen Z, quite a Gen Z pick. So yeah, that, just the title of the song. I think you wouldn't even need to know the song to know, to understand what I'm communicating.
Tom Hootman (06:40)
So.
No, it's fantastic. I'm immediately thinking that it needs to get onto some mixed tape digital playlists to be honest with you because I make playlists all the time. Yeah, and it was a song that like I was way into and then I forget about for a while then I come back to it and I'm like, why do I forget about this song?
Soph (07:05)
It's a great driving song. As long as you can control the road rage. ⁓
Tom Hootman (07:06)
phenomenal driving song.
Yeah, it's a short song though. So it's like it's a perfect
driving song for you in the UK where you can only ever drive a couple hours.
Soph (07:17)
Exactly. Top to bottom, two hours.
Tom Hootman (07:19)
Top to top, top to bottom.
OK, that's your in-house song. Freelance time.
Soph (07:23)
And then,
so freelance life, it's been three years now and I feel like life, work, how I think about things, probably just because I've grown up and I've matured, I think I'm a lot more balanced now. So I'm going to go with Hand in My Pocket by Alanis Morissette.
Because I feel like... ⁓
Tom Hootman (07:43)
That's so good. No, that's so good. just, I,
I, we played that album. That was when I worked at the music store in the shopping mall. I was not anticipating a deep cut. That's a really deep cut. That's phenomenal.
Soph (07:54)
I'm, yeah,
I love her. I just feel like that song strikes a balance of like the goods and the bads. it just, it's maybe a little deep compared to brutal, but I feel like that's where I'm at now compared to where I was, you know, seven, eight years ago. Yeah. She's a queen.
Tom Hootman (08:10)
Pride of Canada, Alanis Morissette. That
was a box CD, what we called, I just made that term up, but it was when I worked at the music store, there were albums that came out that were so popular at the holidays that you literally didn't put them out. You just cut the top off the box of like 20 of them and had it next to the register because people would come in and say, like, do you have that Alanis? Yes, it's right here.
Two amazing picks. Thank you. We just talked about this before we were recording. You're a Mancunian. you're an honorary. You've been there a while, though, right? So you've been in Manchester a bit. What's the best Manchester band of all time?
Soph (08:43)
An honorary Mancunian. Yeah. We'll go with that.
Can I say anything other than Oasis? I mean, Oasis is not really a pop-out answer. I it is, it has to be.
Tom Hootman (08:55)
It's a great choice.
Yeah.
It's not, it's not the right answer, but it's an answer. They're fantastic. ⁓ I love Oasis, huge Oasis. I love the first 2.5 Oasis albums. ⁓ everyone on the podcast, so when Oasis got like they were doing their tour through the U S a few months ago, a couple of months ago, it was like three or four podcasts guests in a row. all going to see Oasis. And so they were all picking Oasis songs.
Soph (09:03)
Wish you all the best.
Okay.
Tom Hootman (09:24)
The Taylor Swift album came out and everyone was picking Taylor Swift songs. It's hilarious to see this question, to ask this question and have people, it's very like whatever's top of mind and what's like, you get that nostalgia, right? I thought about this a lot, knowing you're a Manchester transplant. Because you've got the Stone Roses, you have Joy Division and the Smiths, Oasis. I would have to say full catalog, the Smiths.
Soph (09:33)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (09:47)
Like you're talking like five albums, four or five albums that are just like impeccable.
Soph (09:47)
Yeah.
Yeah I think the Smiths transports me back to my Tumblr days. Yeah do you know Tumblr? Like did you ever used to use it?
Tom Hootman (09:58)
Tumblr days? You have to ch-
I don't know, but you'll have to translate for us in the state. ⁓ goodness. ⁓ Tumblr. my God. Yeah. Barely. Jeez.
Soph (10:04)
social media platform it was like a blog yeah yeah the smith
to me is like tumblr era you know because there's so many like deep lyrics it's just one of those
Tom Hootman (10:16)
Well, the beautiful
thing about the Smiths is Johnny Maher plays like it's they're all upbeat songs with the most like soul crushing lyrics for Morrissey, who's an incorrigible creep and just a brutal human being today. But what are you going to do? I love these. So like I could talk music all day. This isn't a music podcast. Maybe I should start one of those. ⁓
Soph (10:24)
Yeah.
⁓ yeah. ⁓
You
Tom Hootman (10:35)
You've been freelance for a while. think you said three years. You've been in marketing for a decade longer. ⁓
Soph (10:39)
Three years now, yeah.
Yep. Yeah, I've
yes.
Tom Hootman (10:46)
Across either like for you, what, what greatest hit are you most proud of that nobody might know about or that no one asks about? Like, and I'll give you an example. And this is like, I use this as an interview question. Are you probably not a basketball fan? no, Michael Jordan. Do you've heard of Michael Jordan? Okay. ⁓ Michael Jordan was in the NBA finals to play for the championship against the Utah jazz.
Soph (11:03)
We'll give it away. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Michael Jordan.
Thank
Tom Hootman (11:11)
And he had the, he had this horrible flu. call it the flu game. He, jazz fans will say it was a hangover, right? But it was a, he could barely walk and everyone knew he could barely walk. He was dehydrated. He'd been vomiting all day. He was just in bad shape. He comes out. Once the game starts, he drops like 40 or 45 on the jazz and wins the game. What is that moment where like you're most proud of that you
in reality had no business winning, but you figured out how to make it happen.
Soph (11:40)
You know what? I don't know that I can distill it into one moment, but I can kind of pull it together as more of a general thing that happens when you work in social. It's so easy to celebrate the metrics that people can see or the things that people talk about like going viral and all of this stuff. And that's great. But if everyone's being honest, none of us control when that happens and none of us can set out to do it on purpose. And I think really,
The wins for me are usually more quiet and behind the scenes and it's not the sort of thing that people talk about because it's not like glamorous or sexy but it's sometimes it is just spending a really solid day in my pajamas.
Hopefully none of my clients are watching this. Pulling together a strategy deck that when it gets delivered, really moves the needle for a small business and makes a world of difference to them. And I know that's such a cop out answer because I can't give you.
Tom Hootman (12:32)
no.
Soph (12:32)
One answer, but I think it's just one of those things that's so easy to talk about the metrics and the vanity, you know, things like that on the outside, but working in social is actually a lot of the unspoken stuff that like feels like a bigger win.
Tom Hootman (12:46)
love that answer. I love a good broad answer because it immediately takes, no seriously, it takes me to a place of appreciation for, there's something to be said about this big pitch. You know you're the little guy. You know who you're pitching against and they're monsters and you win it and there's this amazing magic that happens. But at the same time, having first been in the new biz side,
Soph (12:49)
Thanks
Tom Hootman (13:08)
and then shifting to client services for five years before I founded Mixtape, I found that there is, you have to find that endorphin rush and you can find it on presenting a strategy where the client will literally say like, is brilliant. I love this. This is really great. It's interesting because working in organic social, it's very different from my world, paid media.
Soph (13:29)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (13:30)
You talk about vanity metrics. We run into this with influencer a lot. How do you bridge the gap between the vanity metrics that you know a CEO will light up for versus the trench digging of actual traction in an account? I don't wanna say what are those metrics because if we all knew those metrics, we could just be wildly successful. We would be on a beach.
in Ibiza right now, but like, how do you how do you bridge that gap between like going viral impressions, comments into like true traction?
Soph (14:01)
I will say it's super difficult. think in terms of client facing, it's about managing expectations and educating people. And I don't blame people who don't come from social if their first thought is, I want to get as many followers as possible. I want to go viral. These like goals that people give you when you start working with them. I think you kind of discover with a client quite quickly how...
open to learning about social they are and sometimes you can kind of explain okay that's not really how it works or that doesn't necessarily translate to the end of the line goal which might be sales or website hits or whatever and
Sometimes they're really open and they're like, okay, cool. what would you kind of recommend? What would you track? And they're the great clients. And then sometimes you will get people that are kind of like, this is the budget. We need to go viral at least three times a week. And sometimes you just got to know when to walk away, I think, or like not take on a job. If I'm being really honest, it's not for everyone. Not everyone can be educated or convinced of what the real important metrics are. It's hard.
Tom Hootman (15:07)
I get that.
Soph (15:07)
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (15:08)
Yeah. We had a publicly traded company that was getting back into organic social influencer. And it's when you're that size and you're throwing that much budget at it. There's kind of like a it's hard not to show them like your baseline is zero because they really weren't doing anything on TikTok. They weren't doing much influence any influencer at all. So when you're starting from baseline zero,
everyone gets excited, the board is excited about it. I mean, I do it when I see our posts. I'm like, yeah, look, that's me, right? It taps something in here. When you have a company, the worst thing you can have, in my opinion, is a company that went viral once before they hired you. And they come to you and they're like, do that again, as you said, three times a month. Can I just dump, can I just?
money machine go burr. Like, can I just like, dump money? And it's like, it's not how it works. Like you could dump $4 on it and go viral. You could dump $4 million on it and not go viral, but have a greater lift, obviously, because it's 4 million. It's a bad example. But it's like trying to frame expectations. And I like what you said about knowing when to walk away. It's a good set. You're segueing for me. You were in-house and then you moved to freelancing.
Number one first question, what's the what's what's been the greatest challenge you didn't see coming from doing that and then I'll get into my second.
Soph (16:23)
Honestly, and maybe this is super ironic, but marketing myself So I'm a marketing student obviously But actually when it comes to marketing myself and putting myself out there, I find it so difficult like I find it really icky I don't think I'm the only person that feels like that, but I definitely didn't have it down
Tom Hootman (16:44)
No.
Soph (16:46)
in my head when I was considering the pros and cons of going freelance and what I might like, what I might not, not being able to work out how to market myself.
didn't occur to me, because I kind of just assumed it would be fine and then I started and I was like, ⁓ no, I have to post on LinkedIn, I have to like, not brag, but like, you know, humble brag about the things that I've done well to catch the attention of potential clients and the whole thing just doesn't really feel that good, but you gotta do it.
Tom Hootman (17:12)
You have to do it. I love.
So what I like about that is that number one, I think I don't you and I met through LinkedIn. And I think I reached out to you because I do think that the way you market yourself is grounded in reality. There's a bit of self-deprecation. You you're like you. I like people who get it like there was like to me, there's no cringe like you just absolutely get it. And I think that
Soph (17:34)
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (17:40)
If anything, my first gut instinct is like, we are so similar. I haven't been posting lately at all because like when I don't, if I don't have something, I try not to post. And it's like, I should post more. So there's like this devil on one shoulder, angel on the other of like, no, you need to promote the business. And it's like, well, no, everything I have is like a bullshit story or a joke. And they're like, no, post it. And they're like, no, I need to talk about the business. Stop.
I think you do a great job of balancing that. Like I was immediately smitten by the content that you put out that promotes your business, but also at the same time illustrates your authenticity. And I think that that's something that we all take for granted is like, it's just authenticity. LinkedIn has evolved into a platform in my opinion where like authenticity wins. you, because you can't, it's hard to fake it.
Soph (18:26)
I think that well, authenticity stands out in a sea of... I hate to say it because I use it for some things but chat GPT like kind of just generated content and I think maybe now more than ever being authentic and just being real I hate that, being real. ⁓ It stands out, it cuts through I think, I hope.
Tom Hootman (18:26)
And if anything.
Yeah.
How does someone in your role leverage chat GPT?
Soph (18:50)
so I like out loud in my head when I'm writing I'm a yapper like I am a yapper so often I will kind of write things write ideas and everything is my tone of voice but I will quite often ask chat to
reduce it by probably about 80 % because no one would read my LinkedIn post if I hit publish the second I'd actually just finish them how they look. They are long, I'm rambling, I have like 10 different sets of brackets with extra notes in that mean nothing to anyone. They're like inside jokes with myself and I'll like read it back and I'm just thinking this...
This isn't gonna work. So again, I have like a decent sort of work process now where I'll write all of the content. Everything that you see on my LinkedIn comes directly from me and my brain, but it has been wrapped up in a more succinct way by chat, because that thing would be long.
Tom Hootman (19:26)
No.
Do you
use ChatGPT for idea generation at all?
Soph (19:48)
I will say I've kind of tried it and I just don't think it's there. It's not. I've tried out of curiosity and it's very sort of...
Tom Hootman (19:54)
kinda sucks. Yeah, it's not the best.
Soph (19:59)
stereotypical answers that I feel like I could just go to any other human who maybe doesn't work in marketing and say give me 10 ideas to post about this and they would say the same thing as what chat is saying now and I also feel like surely they are just trolling the internet and that's where their ideas are coming from and I want to do stuff that isn't already on the internet otherwise what's the point?
Tom Hootman (20:22)
I couldn't agree more. also think that ⁓ you can very much tell when someone like it's I use it for ideation. The ideas are all none of them are good. But I've always been someone who can't work with a blank canvas. I can tell you what I don't like all day long. It's a curse and a gift. So give me something and I'll poke holes in it. And like my team calls me the butcher on decks. Right. Because I can be like, no, do this, flip this. This is different. Make tighten this up.
Soph (20:22)
That makes sense.
Mm-hmm.
Thanks.
Tom Hootman (20:47)
I use GPT for an idea engine for like give me 20 garbage ideas and I'll pick one of them and like a nugget from one of them and like gives me something to work with.
Soph (20:57)
Yeah, sometimes you just need a spark or you could maybe pick like an aspect of one and an aspect of another and then you have your own idea that it didn't come up with. Yeah.
Tom Hootman (21:07)
Totally.
100%. And then we're also kindred spirits because I like my GPT and I it's called scrub and shine, right? Like I'll take an email. I will literally write an email or write a message and I will copy it and paste it like scrub and shine and it'll tighten it up. Look for misspellings, verbiage, make it sound emoticum more professional. And it knows like more professional, but not professional. And we've gotten it to a good place in the Hootman house.
Soph (21:29)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
I think that's another thing that's difficult. Your tone of voice has to be so specific to you. And I think if you have a tone of voice and then you post something that maybe ChatGPT wrote and it's not quite the same, I think people really see through it. And often people will, when they're talking to me about LinkedIn or my LinkedIn posts, they'll mention the tone of voice. And I, it's nice because it's not really something I developed. It's literally me just like yapping at my keyboard.
Tom Hootman (22:01)
love it.
Soph (22:02)
Yeah, so it's nice. I think that's something that's hard to replicate as well. Not just the content of what's being said, but how it's being said. think chats may be not quite there. I don't know.
Tom Hootman (22:13)
It's yeah, I, ⁓ I recently rolled out. It was just heavy for me, the vision goals and values for the company. And I intentionally insulated myself on it. I didn't want to go to, I go to committee on almost everything and I love to ask people their input and opinions, super transparent. and I intentionally was like, this needs to be like, need to own this, Tom. This is your like, don't dilute this to get it done. And.
I worked with GPT and I wasn't happy with it. And I went to one person who I respect, who gave me some feedback on it and great feedback. There was like, there's no stories in here about you. There's your tones off. There's nothing to do with music in it. It sounds like a professional vision goals, like a really boring vision goals values. Like here's the things I would change. And they kind of hammered it in a best way possible, super constructively that helped me. Do you have people in your network who you go to?
Soph (22:56)
Thanks.
Tom Hootman (23:05)
like peers or I'm really curious about the freelance element of like you said you're in your pajamas writing kind of is there someone in your network here like hey can you stress test this for me and tell me if this is good or not
Soph (23:11)
Thank
Yeah, absolutely. When I was building my website and a couple of the digital products that I have on there, when they were finished, I kind of was really scared to put them out into the world before people who... They're not really for those people, they were more for sort of beginners or people learning things, but I wanted people who were experts or like at my level to read them and say...
yeah you got that right, yeah that would make sense to someone who doesn't understand so obviously I have my friends and my family who have nothing to do with my work life who I'll kind of ask to just look at things and I'll say have I used a word in there that you don't know what that is because you take it for granted right and there's so much jargon in marketing even though I do try and avoid it but I do have peers in the industry that I kind of run things by and get their opinion because it means a lot to me and
I don't know, you know when you've just worked so hard on something and you're about to put it out? There's something really scary about that. Even if it's so basic and also only like three people are gonna bother clicking on the link, I'm still like shaking as I'm like pressing publish. ⁓
Tom Hootman (24:14)
Yeah.
Well, there's an element
of like over analysis, I think, because like things I work more on probably were decent in the middle. And then but I know it's just decent. So then I tinker with it. And I end up going from shitty to decent back to a different form of shitty. Because I've like over engineered at that point. And that's when I'm like, fuck, I'm just gonna set this down. Like, I can't. This isn't good.
Soph (24:40)
Me too, I'm
so guilty of that. I think I work best working really intensely on a project and then doing it way before the deadline and then not thinking about it for a week and then looking at it with fresh eyes because I can't do it. I have to be intense about it and then a big gap and then look again. I can't take a break for a day and it doesn't work like that for me. ⁓
Tom Hootman (25:01)
Yeah.
It's interesting. And I asked that about the freelance piece because there's a ton of freelancing in our industry. don't scoff at me. You've been you've successfully transitioned. And because I say that because you're the kind of person to stop it. ⁓ God, you successfully transitioned to freelancing and you do remarkable work.
Soph (25:16)
In my head I was like, ⁓ gosh. No I'm not. huh.
Tom Hootman (25:23)
What has been the greatest challenge you didn't see coming from going in-house to be like, we're going to do this. Once you like sit down in your pajamas and you're like, okay, let's go. Cause I had that moment where I was like, all right, what happens next?
Soph (25:34)
I
guess, other than the working out how to market myself thing, I would say in terms of like being specific about working with clients, oh, micromanaging. I hate it.
Tom Hootman (25:46)
⁓
Was there an element of like moving from in-house to freelance where it's like all you? Like not only are they micromanaging you, they're micromanaging only you. So like.
Soph (25:57)
Yeah, I kind of craved a little bit of the freedom I would say when you're in house, no matter how senior you are, unless I guess you're like a head of or a director, which I never quite got to that level. There's a certain level of things done for you, meetings you have to attend, rules or ceilings that you can't get past because that's like upper management. So I was actually really looking forward to the aspect of
being the one person to do everything, because I think I've craved that for quite a few years.
But I think, I was probably quite naive and hadn't really thought through what could be bad about having a client. Cause I was like, well, clients, that would be great to have a client. And I had not for one second thought I might not get on with them. They might be difficult. I just never thought about it. would have, I think at that time I would have been so happy to have a client, but I would say I've had a few now that are micromanagers, but it's about things that don't matter. Like, could we put a pink heart emoji at the end of that caption?
Tom Hootman (26:49)
Yeah.
Soph (26:52)
Could you and it's the time it takes to go back and change things. It's just Incredibly frustrating. I love amends. I love feedback. I want whoever I'm working for to be 110 % happy with what I'm doing that's so important to me, but when the feedback is Really surface level and it doesn't really make a difference. I'm always like, yeah sure, do you agree?
Tom Hootman (27:17)
Another edit. Why not? Sure. Yeah.
Soph (27:20)
Yeah, I
mean, let's add it to the 57 we've already done.
Tom Hootman (27:23)
Yeah. How big was your in-house team when you worked there?
Soph (27:26)
So my very last one, my most recent one, I looked after a team of four girls in social, but the wider marketing team, so that was like all organic social, the wider marketing team I would say there was probably 15 to 20 of us. I would say our team made up quite a lot in terms of like all the different functions of social. Organic social for sure had the biggest sub team within that.
But mean, kind of as it should be, there is so much that goes into it. But yeah, so it was like a nice size team.
Tom Hootman (27:56)
Yeah.
Yeah, I asked that because like for me, transitioning into like day one, it's just me and like a couple of other fractional people. I took for granted the size and scope of my team. like you get the reason I did this was to challenge myself and actually do things I'd never done before because you become so insulated where I was like the we talked about this book, like I talked about this in my last meeting. I was like the last interview.
I was like the vibe check interview, right? Now I'm not the vibe check interview. I'm like, actually have to vet this person before they join Mixtape. And I was so used to years of like, hey, Tom, here are the three candidates. Here's where their comp ranges are. We're gonna have you interview for 30 minutes with each, just pick one. And it was like, kind of like the final check mark signature on it. I still was accountable for it, but I wasn't as responsible for it, right?
Day one here was like, shit, like hey, we need a scope. Okay, I'll write a scope. And like, we gotta hire someone, cool, can we? Shit, I gotta do that. And it's like the little accoutrement of like job descriptions, pay ranges, those are the things that freeze me up a bit. like, you know, that's part of like, well I wanna talk about managing remote work.
in our earlier conversations we've had, I'm very open about the fact that I'm neurodivergent and I have ADHD, ADD is my wife who's a therapist would like to say, adult ADD. And when something confounds me, I know I have a tendency to freeze. So battling through that is like a it's a hard component of like not only work but...
you realize when you have a team, like you can, you can kind of like segue something over and have someone help you when you don't have that. It's tougher to manage. mean, so like for you, we've talked about this openly, like moving from in-house to remote work. Did you have that moment where you were like, like you found yourself like battling the freeze of like, wait, what's going on here?
Soph (29:56)
In some ways, yes, in some ways no. mean, the example you gave kind of talking about all the official things, there's a lot of things that had to learn as I became a freelancer, but I will say it's not like I went from a position where I had people sort of doing things for me or I had the luxury of like leaning on other people just because the types of companies that I worked for and the industry that I worked in.
not very well structured, they just didn't have the systems so I would have kind of had to learn it anyway. So in some ways, no, like I didn't really struggle because I was gonna have to learn all of that and there wasn't really much of a change. I was kind of battling it out mentally on my own in those places, even though there was sort of people around me but then I really was on my own as a freelancer but I really relished in it.
But I will say I'm very much a freeze and kind of not panic. I think my therapist calls it catastrophizing. Yeah. I'm so good at that. I'm amazing. It's like, I don't brag about anything I do, but I'm amazing at catastrophizing. Possibly world number one.
Tom Hootman (30:50)
Mmm. Mmm. Mmm-hmm.
From the same cloth you and I, I appreciate
you bringing that up because there's an element of like the night before a pitch when it feels like we're behind where I could feel my fight or flight kicking in and the catastrophizing as you call it. And I'll be sitting on the couch and my wife who's a therapist, shout out Amy, will look at me and she can tell that I'm spiraling. And it's like, you're just gonna have to work on this all night to make yourself, you're not gonna be able to sleep.
Soph (31:08)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (31:28)
and it's like, no, I'm just not gonna be able to sleep, I'm sorry. And I just have to do it. It's like, there's like phases of that catastrophizing that you go through that like, and some would even call it hero syndrome, right? Like there's an element of like you create a catastrophe that then you can save it from to make yourself feel better. I've read this as well. And there's an element of like.
Soph (31:45)
I've never heard that, but I love that. I'm gonna look into it.
Tom Hootman (31:50)
this is all a mess. We're never going to win this. We're so far behind. I'm just going to work all night and do it. And then at the end of the night at like four in the morning, you're like, there's a little bit in the back of your brain that was like, yeah, we're there. We got it there. I did that. I saved it. And it was like, no, your job was to not make it get there in the first place. You idiot. Right. Like, um,
Soph (32:08)
Yeah. Yeah, that happens
to me. I overcomplicate things in my head as to how complicated I think they're gonna be and then when I eventually finish the thing, I look back and every single time I'm like, that was not, that was not as bad as I thought it was gonna be and you would think that that happening a hundred times over would rewire something in my brain, but it doesn't and I do it every time and the frustrating thing is
it's never that if for example it was a pitch it's not that the pitch isn't good or I've not actually done it like I think nine times out of ten I was probably already there it was fine it was great I it's actually psyching myself up to do the thing and believe that it's good it's not even making the thing good if that makes sense yeah
Tom Hootman (32:51)
Yeah, that makes sense.
This is near and to my heart because I think there are a lot of people who battle the similar catastrophizing. It's impossible for me to say. What advice, if any advice, would you give someone who is battling this or thinks they may be battling this or even advice you'd give your younger self?
Soph (33:10)
Say it out loud, one, because I am a huge catastrophizer, maybe not in the way that people would imagine, like they probably think I'm freaking out and I'm like ranting and raving and I... No, it's inside and I, like you said with your wife, you're sat there and she can tell and it's probably not that you're doing something, you're just so...
inside yourself that she can probably tell and I'm very much the same and I think one thing out loud but two not all your friends have to be like this but having certain friends that are honest and not just gonna say what you want to hear so if you say to them is this right does this look right and they say yes you know it's right because they would tell you if it wasn't and it gives you that like sense of confidence because I
Tom Hootman (33:49)
Yeah.
Soph (33:52)
often kind of don't believe myself but if someone tells me something that I already thought might be true I'm like ⁓ well it must be true because they said it's true so it's true.
Tom Hootman (34:02)
Yeah, I think that there's peaks and valleys in this business and I think especially for someone like myself or us, there's an element for the peaks to be really high and the valleys to be really low. They just swing more wildly. I had a great therapist who gave me wonderful advice that I don't follow nearly as much as I should about daily affirmations. And just if you're speaking these things out loud to yourself, they do tend to grab and they do tend to like, right the ship.
Soph (34:12)
Yeah.
Thank you.
Tom Hootman (34:28)
somewhat in terms of, okay, they call me down. We got this. We can do this. Because it really is, and I'm sure you ran into this in freelance, and you have moments where you're like, I'm gonna take over the world. This is easy. And then there are moments where I'm like, usually it's Mondays for me, I'm like, how is this ever gonna work? And it helps create balance. Whatever we can do to say it out loud, to rephrase it, to take a breath, whatever that.
Soph (34:38)
Okay.
Tom Hootman (34:53)
There's a million different things you can do that like reframe box breathing is another one. Reframing your, your mental approach in the moment calms you down somewhat.
Soph (35:01)
Yeah,
absolutely. I would say obviously this is a privilege, but if you can attend therapy or speak to a therapist, I actually only did it in this last year or so, but it's been really transformative.
They spot things that you do and say that are so obvious when they say them, but how would I not realized it before? It's insane how blind you can be to yourself, even when you think you've got yourself figured out. I understand that's a privilege, but the other thing that I do, which I find really helps is if I get a nice comment or message on LinkedIn or a really nice text from a client, it's easy to read it and then just go on with your day. I screenshot them and I have a folder on my desktop.
and it's just called remember in capital letters and if I'm really really struggling because I'm big on like positive like what's the word positive reinforcement is that phrase like if I'm really struggling I'll go back and read some of the things and honestly like it does sound a little bit lame like I'm just reading about myself but it helps
Tom Hootman (35:50)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
No, not at all.
You should be in the Midwest United States with your approach because you're very much a, um, this sounds kind of lame. It was like, there's a saying, like when you, compliment someone in the Midwest on like their shirt or their coat or their, or their dress, the first thing they'll tell you is like that they got it on sale. Right? Like there's very much like, no, no, it's just, I'd got it on sale. Um, very Midwestern. Maybe that's why you and I like immediately hit it off. Um, last question, because this is, it's the holidays.
Soph (36:22)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (36:32)
time for new year's resolutions, time for thinking about the new year. I just went through this all hands meeting where I rolled out next year's goals, next year's revenue target, hiring target, all this gobbledygook. Anything in mind for you that would make 2026 wildly successful?
Soph (36:50)
boundaries I think I am a big people pleaser and if someone texts me out of hours or needs something I am like yeah sure and then I wonder why that behavior continues and I it comes from me like I need to set boundaries because I don't and then down
the situation I'm in but I have nobody to thank but myself.
Tom Hootman (37:15)
Yeah,
that's absolutely wonderful. I had another question, but I'm going leave it at that. That's a wonderful, wonderful answer. So thank you so much for making time. know that we it means the world to me. I know that you're very busy and I know that we've been back and forth a few times to make this happen. I love this conversation and I really appreciate you ⁓ sharing your POV, being honest and transparent, self-deprecating to a certain extent, kindred spirits, great minds think alike. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Soph (37:19)
Yeah.
Thank you.