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The Learning Curve Podcast, a feature of the School of Education at University of Aberdeen.
Welcome to The Learning Curve, the official podcast of the University of Aberdeen’s School of Education. Join us as we go beyond the syllabus to explore the bold ideas, high-impact research, and personal ambitions of our staff, students, and leaders.
Every episode features candid conversations with experts in areas ranging from Early Years Education and Outdoor Learning to Inclusive Practice and Leadership Development. Whether you’re a prospective student seeking career paths, a teacher looking for CPD, or an academic tracking the latest insights in STEM and Digital Pedagogy, The Learning Curve is essential listening.
Subscribe now to connect with a world-class educational community and discover what makes the future of learning happen in Aberdeen.
00:00:00 Dr Babbie: Welcome back to the Learning Curve. I'm your host, Doctor Shannon Babbie. Last week, we laid the foundation for our season with the head of the School of Education, Catriona McDonald. We discussed the school's history and its vision for the future of education. Today, we're diving into a topic that is reshaping that future as we speak technology in the classroom. With us today are two experts on digital learning and pedagogy Gordon Stewart and Alan Grieve. Thank you both for being here today.
00:00:42 Alan: Yeah, thanks very much for inviting me, Shannon.
00:00:45 Gordon: Not a problem at all. Great to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
00:00:48 Dr Babbie: Thanks for being here, guys. If you would, please explain to our listeners who you are and what you do here at the University of Aberdeen. Gordon, could I ask you to go first, please?
00:00:57 Gordon: So my name is Gordon Stewart. I'm one of the lecturing staff here at the School of Education. I mostly work in the Primary Education Department and I'm currently the program director for our MA Primary Education, which is a four-year undergraduate degree program.
00:01:12 Dr Babbie: That's great. How about you, Alan?
00:01:14 Alan: Yeah. So my name is Alan Greve. I'm a lecturer in initial teacher education. I was previously a secondary school teacher for most of my career. I'm qualified as a teacher of business education, and I've been working in higher education for the last five years or so. I'm principally responsible for working on IT programmes, and I'm currently the program director for the PGDE Secondary Programme.
00:01:38 Dr Babbie: So to start, let's talk about blended learning. For our listeners who might be new to the term, what exactly is this and how is it changing the traditional classroom model of learning? Alan...
00:01:49 Alan: So for me, quite simply, blended learning is when students are learning both face to face and online, and that can look a little different on many of our IT programmes that we have, We would utilise our virtual learning environment, or VLE, so that students can engage in independent asynchronous learning. And but we would also adopt quite often a flipped learning approach where students can have the flexibility of engaging with online learning prior to then coming to their face to face learning experiences. And I think students really value blended learning for that flexibility. It promotes autonomy. It promotes student led learning. And I think it's something that they really like about what we do here at the University of Aberdeen.
00:02:34 Dr Babbie: Thank you. Alan. How about you Gordon?
00:02:36 Gordon: So yeah, just to echo what my colleague said. Blended learning is really that opportunity that we have to take. Flipped approaches to in-house teaching and remote learning and teaching experiences on our VLE, our virtual learning environment. And I think working with our undergraduate students on the primary education program, they are very use to blended learning because of their experiences in school where they were impacted by Covid-19, or they've had courses where they've had to do remote learning and teaching experiences, so they're aware that there are different platforms that we use. And I think that's something that, as Alan has said, that we do very well here at Aberdeen, is that we make students aware about the different teaching platforms and different approaches which support all learning and teaching experiences, and it makes people aware that we teach in a variety of different ways and use different platforms to get the most out of them. And I would say when it comes to blended learning, we do try to use different approaches, even in our lectures and tutorial spaces, where we'll do Mentimeter and we'll do Padlet experiences where we can get a range of feedback from students remotely and in person. And these are great advantages which have come out of digital technology, which assist in what we do here on campus and on placement as well.
00:03:46 Dr Babbie: Yeah. That's great. Thank you all. Let's transition to the topic of artificial intelligence. It's a huge concern right now. How is artificial intelligence impacting education, and what are some of the practical examples of how it's being used? Gordon, could I ask you to go first?
00:04:06 Gordon: So artificial intelligence is absolutely a hot topic and debate in education just now. And I think there are a lot of people in education who see it as a good advantage tool. There are some that see it as something that is to be feared or or scared of, because it's so unique and ever changing every day. And I think AI and within education has got that really good tool that it supports generative AI. So that support looking at resources and materials and how these can really enhance resources that we're getting in the classroom. And also what teachers do to plan for pupil learning. And I think GenAI is quite an exciting aspect that we're looking at just now within the School of Education. And even just in some of the tutorial groups that I'm working in this year, and we've had lots of fruitful conversations with students about how GenAI tools like Microsoft Copilot or ChatGPT can be used for inspiration on key teaching points or specific concepts, which can be quite abstract to explain to children, or even give them the starting point, to give them a springboard to think of ideas and activities and teaching points that they could use in the classroom. And one of the big underlying parts that we've had when we have this discussion is thinking about the role of the teacher and actually thinking about the teacher professional judgement when they are using JNI resources that actually the teacher in the room. And when you're planning the resource or planning the learning experience, it's far more important than just the JNI. And a colleague here in the School of Education once said that when you use JNI, it's a bit like looking for roast potatoes and you actually get mashed potato instead, that sometimes JNI will just give you the information that you've put into it and it will create something like that. But actually you as the teacher, have got to be that more knowledgeable other. And I've got to discern what's the most important part of that and what bits are you taking away, and are you going to adapt further, either through your own teaching of it or adapting the resource or material that you've created so that it becomes beneficial for the children. I think that's something that we've, we are trying to do quite well with our students is getting them to see that it's a tool to use, but it's not a tool that's used in its entirety that actually they have a professional judgment to make. And that professional judgment is going to is going to identify how that's used in their teaching, not only for the children's benefits, but for their own emerging pedagogy as well.
00:06:25 Dr Babbie: Thank you. And Alan?
00:06:28 Alan: Yeah. So where to start with AI, I suppose impacts on everything in education, I think well documented certainly about its role in assessment and in academic assessments in higher education, but particularly as we think about student teachers who I'm often working with. There's a real opportunity for AI to have a creative role for those educators, for providing inspiration, providing ideas, helping with content generation. And part of our role, I suppose, is to help them navigate that a little bit. I think AI can also be a really positive tool for making learning more accessible for learners. So there are lots of AI tools that can adapt, materials that can support with speech to text processes, creating audio from text, and so on. And I think it's just about us going out there and exploring all of these different tools and trying to learn what is useful for us.
00:07:25 Dr Babbie: These innovations sound really promising, but they have to come with their own set of challenges. What are some of the biggest hurdles in your mind that teachers and students face when integrating these new technologies?
00:07:37 Gordon: So I think I might have touched upon that briefly in the last answer, but I think one of the biggest hurdles is the unknown that GenAI has had lots of media press, it's had lots of coverage, and I think a lot of it has been about the negatives and the detrimental effect it's having. And that can sometimes, I think, spur people on to think that it's something that they can't use or something they need to be quite fearful of. But actually, GenAI has a benefit and has an opportunity to enhance the learning experience when it's used in tandem with something else. And there is always this debate about is GenAI going to remove the craft of teaching and the professionalism? But actually GenAI is just a tool. It's a it's an approach and a pedagogy and a resource that we can use. It's not teaching. And that's something that I think people are quite worried about. And I think obviously the unknown of GenAI is one of the things that holds people back, that it's a constant state of flow where it's changing all the time and its functions and its purpose is changing. And so I think the more it becomes known and the more structured it becomes, I think we'll possibly see a change in people's attitudes. And that actually it's not something to be feared, but it's a tool which can be used. And I think that word can is really important. You know, nobody's forcing you to do it. And it's there to give you inspiration and ideas. If you want to jump into that, you can. But if you choose to use other resources and other forms of support to generate resources and lesson ideas, then that's absolutely fine as well. So I think the unpredictability of it is maybe a sticking point for people at this time.
00:09:12 Dr Babbie: And Alan?
00:09:13 Alan: Yeah, so for AI particularly, I think it's now about finding the right tool to use because there is there are so many options out there. There's so many things, particularly student teachers, for them to get a hold of. And I think that we have to accept that what we're teaching them now, and the content that we're teaching them now about AI is not going to be usable in a year's time. When we do that course again, we're going to have to keep changing and keep innovating and keep updating our own knowledge to be able to support our student teachers in terms of other aspects of technology and education. I think, again, for our student teachers, they are going out into schools and navigating different environments in different schools and in different local authorities. You know, there is an issue with a digital divide in Scotland. There's an issue with how we upskill in-service teachers and also sort of structural barriers like funding for technology and access to Wi-Fi as well. So we're trying to prepare our student teachers as best as possible for different kinds of technology based environments out in schools.
00:10:18 Dr Babbie: I know the school is actively researching how to overcome some of these challenges. What does that research look like, and how is it helping to shape a smoother transition to a more, say, tech integrated classroom?
00:10:31 Gordon: So there are lots of things that schools are doing and educational settings to research about this. I think first and foremost, staff are just exploding in this area, and they're actually trying it out for themselves to see what the tools and functions are of GenAI and how they can be used. And we've already got some local authorities across Scotland who are putting in guidance to their schools and settings about what they can be used for and they can't be used for. And, you know, we've all probably heard in the media and seen that there are some places in Scotland where they've used GenAI to create children's reports and use personal information where that's probably not the best use of it, and it's probably not the most ethical approach either. But for us in the school of Education, we're actively looking at the use of AI and how it can be used for student teachers who are on placement and also for early years practitioners who are in early years settings as well. And I think it's quite an exciting time to be involved in this, because we're gathering perspectives from students and teachers across the piece, about their current use of AI and how they think it can be used in a, in a benefit for not only children, but for teachers as well. So I think more to come, but I think we're at the early stage of research yet where people are exploring and they're starting to really think about their preconceived ideas about it and starting to challenge them. The more they actually find out about these different functions that it has.
00:11:53 Alan: Yeah. So I'm part of a working group at the moment that's looking at how we support students with the use of gen AI when they're on placement. So there's a lot of research already. And there's a lot of policy already about how AI is used for academic assessment work, but less so and less understanding about the role of AI on professional placements. And so what our working group is doing is a few strands to it, but one of the parts of it is to really understand what schools are doing with regards to AI at the moment, so are they embracing it? Are they supporting it? Are they restrictive about particular aspects of it? And the more that we can understand that both directly from schools and from the student's experiences of those schools, when they go on placement, the better we can support current and future students with going to different professional placements.
00:12:46 Dr Babbie: This is fascinating. I'd really love to know what kind of exciting projects you're both working on right now.
00:12:51 Alan: Myself and a colleague, Gordon Stewart, introduced a new elective last year, in the School of Education called Digital Technologies in the Primary Classroom. And what's particularly exciting about this is we can delve really deeply into aspects of digital technology for student teachers. So we look at, for example, the digital literacy of primary learners as well as the digital literacy of teachers. We explore aspects of cyber resilience and online safety. We look at how digital technology can be used to support inclusion in the classroom and its role in assessment. And then also we look at things like how gen AI is used for student teachers and different online learning platforms as well. And it's a really exciting course that's been really positively received by students, because it really helps to open up their eyes about the possibilities of using technology, but it also helps to upskill them and prepare them for going on placement.
00:13:49 Gordon: So as I said, I'm involved in the research group looking at the use of JNI for student teachers on placement. And I think this is a really interesting research group to be part of because we are at the Chalkface and looking at how student teachers are using this. You know, I think we have to be very mindful that Jenei is here and it's here to stay. And and students are already making use of this in a variety of different ways, either personally or as part of their academic study. And we can see that that's been embraced in the university. When we think about all our courses and the jenei level, that's got to be attached to these and how students can can make use of these functions. And I think it's going to be exciting in this project to really unpick what student teachers think about Jenei and the advantages that it has to help them with disciplinary knowledge. So thinking about actually the different strands of learning that come out within a curriculum and to almost open their eyes a bit more, to see that there are different approaches that can be taken to teach the curriculum and can it can be used as a springboard for ideas. So that's the bit I'm excited to see is actually, you know, do student teachers see that this is a vehicle to give them idea generation, that they can then have their own creativity with, and they can use their professional decision making skills and use that in tandem when they actually come to plan lessons for teaching in the primary classroom.
00:15:12 Dr Babbie: One of the things our listeners will want to know is how the School of Education at University of Aberdeen is a top choice for students. So how does a focus on new technology and pedagogy make us a leader in higher education.
00:15:26 Alan: Particularly for for initial teacher education? Technology is central to the pedagogy that we're using with our students. And I think that the more that we are modelling and we're experimenting and exploring the use of digital pedagogies with our students, the more that they are then prepared and confident to be able to use those different technologies themselves. And I think in terms of what makes that really attractive for us as an institution, is it really helps students to be prepared for a modern classroom in Scotland so that they have the skills, they have the confidence, they have the understanding about what modern technology in a Scottish classroom is going to look like.
00:16:08 Gordon: Well, for the primary education course. Our overarching vision is that we want student teachers who graduate from Aberdeen to be critically reflective, the sponsored practitioners, and that ultimately means that we want new teachers entering the first phase of their professional lives. Who can make informed choices, who can reason logically, and who are able to discern what they've learned here on campus and on placement, and use that in a proactive way to teach the next generation. And our overarching vision is that we want student teachers who are able to make decisions, who are able to use what they've learned in a in a positive way. And by that, that means that they're able to not just become a replica of the lecturers that they've had here on campus, but they're actually to be autonomous practitioners and ready for the next generation of Scotland and ready to embrace what's going to come next. And for us as a program, I think it's really exciting to see that there are developments in education that are happening not just within the education sector, but I think things are happening worldwide, like the use of JNI and how this is actually going to be used in our program. And for us, I would say that the education program takes into consideration the needs of society and the advancements that are taking place, and we try and replicate that across our program so that we are preparing students to go into tomorrow's classroom and use what they've learned here. And one of the the ways we've done that is that we've thought about particular learning strands, or what's known as our golden threads, which run through the program. So the emergence of professional knowledge and understanding, the awareness of curricular pedagogies and how these are progressively built across the four years, and also that lens of inquiry where students are continually questioning and challenging their assumptions and beliefs about learning and teaching across the four years of the program, in the view that these progressive experiences that they get across their academic and placement courses support them to be the teacher in Scotland when they graduate from us and go into a probationer classroom. So I think Aberdeen is definitely a top choice. It would be one that I would recommend people to really consider as they look ahead to become a student teacher and study for their initial teacher education qualification. Because we're a degree programme that's committed to supporting students in their progressive set of knowledge and understanding, and we also want to prepare new teachers to have a voice and to be autonomous practitioners.
00:18:35 Dr Babbie: A bit of a curveball. Guys, what do you wish I had asked you today? And what's the answer to that question?
00:18:40 Alan: I thought you might have asked me maybe about what piece of technology I'm currently using, or maybe something I'm experimenting with at the moment. So something I've been. I just got a new phone. So one of the things I've been using is the improved AI integration in the Google Lens feature. And this allows you to put your camera up to different places and different objects. And it uses AI in order to support you with what you ask it. So you can, for example, open your fridge and you can show an image of the different items that you have in your fridge, and it can suggest recipe suggestions from that. And so what I'm thinking is, how could I potentially use that in the classroom? How could I use that with students to think about how in a safe way, they could be using the Google Lens feature to be able to use AI to inspire and come up with creative ideas?
00:19:34 Gordon: Well, I more thought when you when you were asking about technology in the classroom, I thought you might have asked particular learning strands or different things that are covered in our programme. But really, the conversation today has been really great to talk about GenAI and about what we are doing as a school to prepare students for entering into the workforce and using this not just as a tool, but having an awareness that that they have a professional set of expectations and professional knowledge that, that they've got to carry forward. I suppose thinking about learning strands of technologies. One of the founding parts of our degree program, really, is that we want student teachers to have a wide breadth of disciplinary knowledge, and GenAI sits in just one strand of not only digital literacy, but computing science. And when we support student teachers to further their professional and pedagogical understanding of technologies, we really get them to embrace. The digital literacy is only one of the five strands within the curriculum for excellence. When you look at technologies and ICT, and that actually just by using a digital device doesn't actually mean that you are teaching the curriculum. It just means you're focusing on one set of skills. And so technologies is about craft and design. It's about food and textiles. It's about learners engagement and technological developments and also about business and society. So we want students to get a well-rounded and holistic picture that technology isn't just about a digital enactment, but it's about a wider set of skills that children and young people need to develop. So they have a progressive and holistic set of skills that prepare them for life in the future. And a common debate in one of our courses, which focuses on technologies, is on the gap of technological skills, where we get them to compare and contrast their experiences of technologies. That plural word in primary school. And I'm thinking about their own pedagogical practice and what the standard for provisional registration requires them to teach and requires them to act as a teacher. And it's really interesting as part of that course, because students automatically come in and they hear the first word, which is technology, and they automatically assume it's about a digital device. And by the time they've gone through this six week course and these sets of experiences, they begin to see that actually technologies is plural. It's not just about being digital, but it's about thinking technologically. It's about using different materials and different resources, and it requires a set of disciplinary skills where they can actually use different dispositions to create, design, problem solve, replicate, and actually reason logically. And that's the skill set that I think that we really need to get across to students is that being technological isn't just about being a digital person, but it's about thinking in a technological way where you can take an idea and you can go through that design process and actually make reasoned and informed choices along the way.
00:22:25 Dr Babbie: Well, this has been an incredibly insightful conversation, something I've really enjoyed. Thank you both so much for sharing your expertise today.
00:22:33 Alan: Absolutely. Been a pleasure, Shannon. Thank you.
00:22:35 Gordon: Absolutely. My pleasure. Shannon, it's been great to be part of your panel discussion, and I really look forward to future conversations with you and any potential listeners as well.
00:22:46 Dr Babbie: And thank you for listening. Next week we'll be discussing wellbeing and mental health with Steph O'Reilly and Laura Ford. They'll be sharing the research and practical tips for both teachers and students. You won't want to miss it. So until next time, keep learning.