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We share stories of how the blood of Jesus has transformed ours and others' lives.
Denalee Bell:
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Soapy Box. I'm Denalee Bell, and today we have Jean Schilling joining us as a guest.
Jean Schilling:
Hello.
Denalee Bell:
We're excited to have her.
Jean Schilling:
Thank you.
Denalee Bell:
I've invited you for a couple of reasons.
Jean Schilling:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
One, you are the softer side of me. Though we might have similar opinions, you're a little softer and offer more love and compassion probably than I do. I'm a work in progress where she's a little bit further ahead.
Jean Schilling:
Right.
Denalee Bell:
Yes.
Jean Schilling:
Everybody starts somewhere.
Denalee Bell:
Exactly. So how I met Jean, we met actually in a class, right? In one of [inaudible 00:00:35].
Jean Schilling:
Yeah, long time ago. Yeah.
Denalee Bell:
And then I went to her as a massage therapist and found out that she's, oh, so much. It's not your typical massage therapy. It's emotionally, spiritual, and physically healing. And I believe you're led by the Holy Spirit.
Jean Schilling:
Yeah, absolutely.
Denalee Bell:
This is why it's such a comfort and such emotional healing that happens there. We call you, okay, so don't get crazy Christians, it's just our name, we call her "Jean Magic Fingers" around the house because literally she can just touch a spot on your body and just the pain is gone.
Jean Schilling:
Yeah. Good. It's good. It's not me, but it is me. It's through me.
Denalee Bell:
That's awesome. And you also have a product coming out called Reveal, which is going to help people find themselves, find their identity.
Jean Schilling:
Yeah. Sort of whatever you're doing or that you would like to do to help you process through your emotions and what is stopping you from taking the next real steps to the life that you really want to live.
Denalee Bell:
Get want you want? Yeah.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Yeah, your best self, like how can you get to your best self and what is stopping you from being there.
Denalee Bell:
And so we're going to talk about toxic femininity today. It's a big topic. I was actually shocked when you said yes to this one.
Jean Schilling:
Really?
Denalee Bell:
'Cause when I sent you the outline, I thought, "Hmm."
Jean Schilling:
I love it.
Denalee Bell:
That's awesome.
Jean Schilling:
I mean, I think there's so much of a conversation about femininity and women starting to lead, and really the whole world is looking to us to do something, and there's something in the way that some women are doing it that is, it hits my heart wrong. No, no, no. We need to really understand it. I mean, all women really want to live a magical life, and I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to do that. I think the way that some of us are going about it is problematic.
Denalee Bell:
And I think that's with a lot of things in life right now, which I really started noticing since COVID. We all probably want the same things, we just don't agree on how to get it right.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Correct. I agree.
Denalee Bell:
Because I don't think we're all that far apart. I mean, everybody wants happiness, love, success, they want to feel adored, cherished.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Yes, exactly. Beautiful...
Denalee Bell:
Useful, purposeful. There's a lot of things that people want. So when I bring up the word "toxic femininity," what does that mean to you?
Jean Schilling:
Everything. I don't want the feminine to be.
Denalee Bell:
That is good.
Jean Schilling:
To me, toxic is the overly masculine, the trying to control, the inflexibility of human nature. As women, I think we really have a tendency to hold more space. And I think to me, toxic femininity does not do any of that. It really pushes out everybody from the space. It makes it just simply about us, or singular.
Denalee Bell:
Some things you just said made me think of, it's like we're fighting our own nature.
Jean Schilling:
Correct, yes, that's what it feels like.
Denalee Bell:
Yes. I think toxic, there was toxic masculinity, right?
Jean Schilling:
100%. Right. That's part of the ebb and flow of it.
Denalee Bell:
And there's toxic femininity.
Jean Schilling:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
So I think the problem is we started out with maybe some good goals with feminism, right?
Jean Schilling:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
And the experiment isn't really working out. It's one of those things where we were just talking about where maybe we all want the same thing, but there's a group of people who have just taken it too far and the pendulum is swinging so too far. And the reason I wanted to talk about this subject is because I have so many wonderful men in my life. I have two beautiful sons, an amazing husband, friends. My brother is the coolest guy you'll ever meet. He is really cool. And he has these beautiful young men that are my nephews that I want good for, and I want good for all of them. But what I noticed, a trend that was happening that really has been upsetting me, is their desire to repress their thoughts and their emotions. And I've done it too. And I'm going to say, we're going to talk about some traits of toxic femininity, and you will find me in all of them at some point in my life.
And even sometimes still this morning, as early as three hours ago when we were getting ready for the podcast, and Dave dared ask me why I was setting the camera where I was, I became abusive verbally, "Why do you care? What's this got to do with you?" And I was this shrill person that thought, "Oh, you're talking about this today. How lucky for you? Perfect timing to be a shrill witch." I want them to feel like they can say what they're feeling. And so Tyler and I actually filmed this podcast already together, and we were both uncomfortable with it for two different reasons. I believe I was uncomfortable 'cause he made me film outside and it was hot.
Jean Schilling:
Hormones, people.
Denalee Bell:
But I think he was uncomfortable because he was uncomfortable this subject matter and how he might be perceived 'cause he's a man. And so this is my understanding from talking to other people his age, and I'm not speaking for him when I say this, but they feel like, this is what they've been taught, the patriarchy took over for too long, and so now we need to give women room. And I don't think it works that way. In some ways, I think we lift each other up. And I don't think it's by saying, "Okay, I'm not going to exist so you can have more space."
Jean Schilling:
Right. Bad idea.
Denalee Bell:
Yeah. And I think think that's happening. So I was thinking about what toxic femininity meant to me. I was trying to get a definition. And I was just looking at what other people were saying about it. I think Jordan Peterson said it's basically antisocial behavior.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Yes.
Denalee Bell:
But I think that that toxicity in masculinity or femininity, and this was a problem with Tyler too, when we were talking, he said, "That could be anybody. It doesn't have to be male or female." Well, while he's correct, there's definitely some lines we see along genders that are using their biology to create toxicity. And so I think that's what it is, is when we overtly use our biology to subjugate or oppress some other group to get what we want instead of being decent human beings.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Exactly.
Denalee Bell:
You won't find that in a Wikipedia.
Jean Schilling:
No.
Denalee Bell:
No, it's just me.
Jean Schilling:
No. Right.
Denalee Bell:
And so I think men and women do this differently. We've seen men do this maybe, and this was maybe a reaction to men using finances, strength, these other ways to manipulate women. And I think I grew up in the eighties as you did too, and my parents got divorced. And my mom was left holding the bag. She had to figure out how to feed us, how to take care of us and do the deal. And I think that happened to a lot of women in that era. And they didn't have skills maybe because they were planning on being stay-at-home moms. And so you had this people who were rising up going, "I don't know how to take care of you." And then you had us as daughters watching this going, "I've got to be able to take care of myself. You can't trust a man." And so I bought into this whole thing.
Jean Schilling:
And that's the other piece of this, is sometimes you can't even trust your own mother, right?
Denalee Bell:
Yes.
Jean Schilling:
Because they don't know how to process-
Denalee Bell:
Not you, Mom.
Jean Schilling:
Right. And not that I don't trust my mother, but there are parts of that, I think, era of women that it was so unstable and so new as right now we are unstable and new in our own movement forward. What does that mean? And because they didn't know it wasn't safe for us as girls to really try and emulate what they were setting as the example.
Denalee Bell:
No, and I think I believed a lie, like all men are this way and you can't trust a man. And I don't think it's been until I've been with my husband for almost 28, almost 30 years now, it's probably only been the last three, four years, where I realized he's not leaving. I don't have to have one foot out the door like, "Okay, I'm ready."
Jean Schilling:
Where's my strategy?
Denalee Bell:
"It could happen at any minute. I've got to have a strategy. I have to be able to make enough money." And I'm just comfortable because I had a breakthrough that this was all a lie.
Jean Schilling:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
So anyway.
Jean Schilling:
No, this is good. This is good. So we're going to lead into where do, in yourself, find your own feminine, your own essence? And just sit with that right now, touch into her and just breathe.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. How do I do that? Help me through this. Help us all through this.
Jean Schilling:
So take a deep breath, wiggly squiggly in your chair a little bit.
Denalee Bell:
And we are sitting on the most uncomfortable juice known to man, but it's for you guys. This is for you.
Jean Schilling:
It's going to be okay. So just take a deep breath, settle your thoughts a little bit, come into your own self. Feel your body, the weight of yourself on the chair where your feet are sitting, and just think, "Where is the softest part of me residing right now?" You don't have to say it out loud.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. You know I wanted to say my butt, right?
Jean Schilling:
I know right. You don't have to say it out loud. Just be with wherever that soft... See, then this is the other part that women tend to do, we make it an external expression of what's soft. You're like, "You know..."
Denalee Bell:
You're right, I did, my cushy butt.
Jean Schilling:
Exactly. And, no, inside. Do the inside piece. Where's the softest spot in you right now that you can really say, "Oh, this is where I really feel feminine. This is where I feel my nurturing comes from."
Denalee Bell:
Okay. So I'm going to just say an answer so I can see if I'm on the right track, because I'm not sure I fully understand how to get inside myself.
Jean Schilling:
Okay.
Denalee Bell:
I just imagine me holding my Yorkie and cuddling her and just like it's this nurturing feeling, because the boys don't want to be nurtured anymore. They're older. They would really like me to stop.
Jean Schilling:
This is why you need grandkids right now, so you can really start-
Denalee Bell:
They would like it to stop.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Always hug your mother.
Denalee Bell:
Exactly.
Jean Schilling:
Okay. But that is the essence of it. So in this space, for me, this space is always in my chest. It always comes from my heart. It's always my essence.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, it wasn't [inaudible 00:12:06].
Jean Schilling:
Right. That is the whole, right, exactly. How do you-
Denalee Bell:
The busam.
Jean Schilling:
Yeah, exactly.
Denalee Bell:
Interesting. I like that.
Jean Schilling:
So in this space, how do you soften and expand and really start expressing yourself from that space? To me, that is the beauty of the feminine 'cause the essence completely is this nurtured state of holding. And this is the piece, you're holding it, but you're not holding onto it. You're just allowing it to be what it is.
Denalee Bell:
So I was feeling a little more toxic before we did this little exercise. And I will say, because I think about some examples of my life where these toxic things have hurt men in my life, and I get a little heated about it or affecting other men. I mean, I love men. I think they're awesome.
Jean Schilling:
You are surrounded by men. You can't not love them.
Denalee Bell:
There's a man dog out here that I'm babysitting. So my assertive aggression, testosterone, my masculine was speaking.
Jean Schilling:
Yeah, exactly.
Denalee Bell:
So it's probably good that you settled me down a little bit.
Jean Schilling:
Exactly, yes.
Denalee Bell:
So I want to talk about the different areas that we do see this toxic femininity come out, not to beat people up, because like I said, I can see myself in each one of these. I could give you an example of when I've done it.
Jean Schilling:
You're right. Yeah. Totally. "Checklist of my own. Okay, that was a little bit toxic." Yeah, absolutely.
Denalee Bell:
But also, maybe if we're aware, maybe we can change a little bit. Maybe we can embrace our men a little bit more and love them and not abuse them.
Jean Schilling:
So I'm going to tell you a little bit of a story. So I have an identical twin sister, whom I adore. She also makes me a little bit crazy, but there are moments even in our relationship that I as the, "Oh, no, I know how to nurture and I know what to say and I know what to do and I can do all the things." And she absolutely hates it. Hates it. And we get into these little bit of fights over it, and she gets so mad at me.
Denalee Bell:
Oh my gosh. She doesn't like that calming presence.
Jean Schilling:
No.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, that's awesome.
Jean Schilling:
She thinks it's awful. She literally hates it. So, in this process, again, I can, in my own feminine nature of it, one, it does hurt a lot when she pushes back, like a lot. Oh my gosh, it hurts so much. But in that process, then I get to choose. Do I, again, push even more forward into that relationship with her and go, "We need to work this out," or do I step away, let her process and have her emotions that myself-"
Denalee Bell:
Oh, I don't even understand your words.
Jean Schilling:
Process and have my... Yes, that is the practice of the feminine. I really do believe that. But as long as I can step away and come into my own emotions, then I can feel where I'm trying to assert myself over her expression.
Denalee Bell:
Okay, but doesn't it feel like she's asserting her need for you to be different?
Jean Schilling:
Right. But again, that's her, and this is me. So am I going to convince her that I need to stay the way that I am, or do I soften into that moment and go, "Oh, here I am. I'm already asserting myself into her and she doesn't like it." And so then how do I stay in my own lane, find my own space? Where's the love that I have for myself and soften into this relationship?
Denalee Bell:
Because it truly matters what you feel about yourself, right?
Jean Schilling:
Exactly. I can't make her do the things I want her to do any more than she can make me be different than how I am. The difference is that in the healthy aspect of the relationship, somebody has to go, "Oh, you're right. I am trying to get you to do something you don't want to do." And I'm calling that love.
Denalee Bell:
Yes, that sounds like love. That's patience and grace, right?
Jean Schilling:
It is.
Denalee Bell:
That is love.
Jean Schilling:
Right, except to her, it's feeling something different, and that is the-
Denalee Bell:
You're respecting that her feelings are different than yours.
Jean Schilling:
Exactly. And so you can't just run.
Denalee Bell:
We can all learn from this. Maybe Republicans and Democrats could all come together if we could just understand that we have different feelings and respect each other for it.
Jean Schilling:
Exactly.
Denalee Bell:
And men and women, I forgot this wasn't a political show. I forgot for a minute.
Jean Schilling:
But that is really the owning the essence of the relationship like, where am I and how do I stay in my own, loving myself?
Denalee Bell:
That is a nice feminine piece for, because I think part of the problem with the toxic femininity is we've been taught that we have to fight, we have to do this, we have to scream, to be heard. And it's gross, right?
Jean Schilling:
Right, absolutely.
Denalee Bell:
I think we were taught, and I was taught this too, that this is how you have to do it. And I don't think it is because I think we've hurt men and ourselves in the process by not just practicing something so simple as respecting each other's feelings and not taking it so offensively. We're not being easily offended by somebody just not adoring us in a minute, or not loving everything we do 'cause I certainly don't love everything everyone does.
Jean Schilling:
No, I don't love it when she does things to me either. I'm like, "Oh..."
Denalee Bell:
All right. We're going to move into hypersexuality.
Jean Schilling:
Okay. Okay. Let's do it.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. So this was the other part of the reason we scrapped the last podcast, because I don't want this to come across judgy, because I have also been not perfect. I got married at 19. I wasn't a virgin. I not proud of it, but I mean I wish I could have given that gift to my current husband, but it's what it is. And have I used my sexuality in the past to get what I want? Yes. Yes. I think the problem that I'm seeing with the hypersexual across the board that I feel is concerning to me for these young women, the OnlyFans page, the Instagram, the social media, the movies, all of these things it seems to me as if these women have created themselves into being a transaction, and it's not really about their self-worth.
They're using this tool of their beauty to sell something, which I get, it's been done forever. We've forgot models. We've had all of these things happening. I get it. I just don't know that I like it for them because I don't like how it becomes an identity almost. "I'm the OnlyFans girl who does this for $30," or I don't know how much that costs. I have no idea.
Jean Schilling:
Not sure I want to know, but okay.
Denalee Bell:
But then it also is a tool to subjugate and oppress men and exploit them and exploit their dollars. And so there's so many things sad about it. And it's not that I have been an innocent girl who hasn't dressed inappropriately, who hasn't, I mean, it's been many years because I've had-
Jean Schilling:
Many, many moons.
Denalee Bell:
Many moons. Because as you get older ladies, you put more clothes on. Layers. Lots of layers.
Jean Schilling:
It's true. It is a lot of layers. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Denalee Bell:
So how do you feel about, I mean... And I don't want to pick on the Kardashians, but it feels like they changed the landscape of how women are perceived. And I don't want to pick on sex workers because they're making money and doing what they got to do. But it also concerns me that it's getting so normalized.
Jean Schilling:
Right. And I think this is really the hard piece of the conversation to even really feel safe having this part of this conversation because-
Denalee Bell:
We're going to get flamed on this.
Jean Schilling:
Right. So there's so much in it that it almost is a conversation just by itself, right?
Denalee Bell:
Mm-hmm.
Jean Schilling:
So to me, in the process-
Denalee Bell:
And you've got to wrap this up in 60 seconds. I'm totally joking. I'm totally joking.
Jean Schilling:
Right. That. Exactly. I don't know if I can do that either, but sort of. In the process of really looking at the essence of what women are, I think that there are things in that that are absolutely unique to each person. And I don't see that there's an issue with expressing that part of ourselves. The issue, I think, is when you're monetizing that part of the femininity, and that is the piece that I think is-
Denalee Bell:
Becomes the transaction.
Jean Schilling:
Right, exactly. That's where it's like, no, what happened to that innocence of it, and the vulnerability? Why is the vulnerability so predatory? The vulnerability is the piece that we really want to be able to express in a way that is honored as it's received and not monetized as you're receiving it. And I think that that is the issue with the whole thing is that's the pieces that I am, so just gross, barf.
Denalee Bell:
So what about the girl who wears the skirt so high you see her cheeks as she goes out to a club.
Jean Schilling:
This is where you and I totally disagree on this, this whole thing.
Denalee Bell:
I know.
Jean Schilling:
I'm like, it doesn't matter what she's wearing. So this is the thing. So again, it does and it doesn't.
Denalee Bell:
Well, I'm wondering what motivates us to want to get that kind of attention, okay?
Jean Schilling:
Insecurity.
Denalee Bell:
Well, here's the problem. Here's where I have. So let's talk about the gym girls. I don't know if you've seen these viral TikToks. These girls wear-
Jean Schilling:
Oh, I stay away from TikTok.
Denalee Bell:
You should. Well, it's fun. They've got cool dog videos. They dance and sing. So anyway, these gym girls, there's a ton of them out there. This is a trend to post, "I'm working out at the gym, watch me work out in scantily clad clothes." And then they seem to be really upset that a guy might look at them. And that's the part that frustrates me is like... It's like getting a tattoo in these bright, crazy colors and then being mad somebody's looking at it. Or if you have spiky hair, long, purple and pink, I'm going to look at it because fascinating. And I'm even going to look at the gym girl 'cause I'm usually fascinated like, "How much work did that take?" And I don't want her to think I'm hitting on her, but if it's fascinating to me, I can't imagine my husband or my son looking away, though you should.
Jean Schilling:
Right. But I think that that is the essence of women. In general, women, and there are some women who just do it so well, it does not matter what they're wearing, men and people, everybody looks it. They could be wearing a plastic bag and people would be drawn into them.
Denalee Bell:
But in a sexual way or in a interest way?
Jean Schilling:
Well, everything that is beautiful, we observe and think, "Oh my God. Beautiful." And you want the world to be that beautiful all the time.
Denalee Bell:
I mean, we like flowers.
Jean Schilling:
Right. And there are frilly dresses.
Denalee Bell:
We like cute puppies.
Jean Schilling:
Cute puppies, exactly. There are certain things that just make you feel more-
Denalee Bell:
See, I just pimped my dog out.
Jean Schilling:
But that is the essence of love, right? Because we want to share the love that we have. So to me, the issue isn't whether or not she's wearing whatever she's wearing. The issue is she's looking for affirmation of what she's wearing to affirm that she's beautiful.
Denalee Bell:
But then is upset when she gets it.
Jean Schilling:
Right, exactly.
Denalee Bell:
That's the confusing part for men, I believe. Okay, if you're going to wear scantily clad clothes and men look at you, you might have to be comfortable with that, or don't do it, right?
Jean Schilling:
Yeah.
Denalee Bell:
But are they just uncomfortable because the guy doing it isn't cute enough for them?
Jean Schilling:
Okay, that's a whole other conversation.
Denalee Bell:
Well, it sounds toxic, right?
Jean Schilling:
Right. Exactly. Absolutely. Absolutely. But I really think that women-
Denalee Bell:
You can't pick and choose, "I only want 10s to look at me." That's not a thing, right?
Jean Schilling:
No, that is not a thing.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, please do not make that into a clip.
Jean Schilling:
There's so many terrible things about, it's like, no, do not do that.
Denalee Bell:
Right.
Jean Schilling:
But however you are dressed, it should not matter who looks at you or who doesn't. The object is not to sexualize what you're wearing. Who are you dressing for? That is the other question.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. So I'm going to really get in trouble for this one. Somebody once told me, and I'm not going to mention their name 'cause part of my family. I was taught to dress modestly. And because I was told, I can't know if I can... I may have to cut this out. I'm going to say it out loud and then we have to cut it out, Tyler, to get all this.
Jean Schilling:
This is the piece.
Denalee Bell:
If you want to be treated like a hooker, dress like a hooker. If you want to be treated like a cop, dressed like a cop. If you want to be treated like a pastor, dressed like a pastor. Do you know what I mean? Dress for the job.
Jean Schilling:
Fair point. Dress for the job that you want. Okay, I get that.
Denalee Bell:
I mean meaning more than the job. And I'm not saying-
Jean Schilling:
No, there is something in this piece of wearing clothing, whatever it is. I mean, everyone's shape is different. So the same thing is going to look different on different people. And some people, you're going to be like, "Wow, that looks amazing." And other people are like, "Why are you wearing that?"
Denalee Bell:
I don't want to do that. I don't want people doing that to me.
Jean Schilling:
No, exactly. i don't either. I'm not going to wear anything that shows skin.
Denalee Bell:
You will not see me in bike shorts, bike shorts and a belly short.
Jean Schilling:
No, no, when I was 12. But I wouldn't do that now. But I mean, thankfully we've gotten away from those low rise pants that are just like an inch over your pubic bone. You're like, "Oh my God, what the hell were people thinking?"
Denalee Bell:
Feel like they're falling off all the time.
Jean Schilling:
Right. In some people, cute.
Denalee Bell:
Yeah. Well, I think it had every right shape other to hold them up. Like they have the right butt.
Jean Schilling:
Right. And other people, you're like, "Oh, you shouldn't wear them."
Denalee Bell:
"I'm sorry, hun. It's not everything's meant for everyone."
Jean Schilling:
But again, this is the thing. If you are comfortable in it, who are we to criticize you wearing that?
Denalee Bell:
So I want to make clear, I'm not criticizing girls for doing this. In a perfect utopia, we would all be able to just wear whatever we want and we wouldn't have to be in fear of being accosted by a predator. Unfortunately, we don't live in that world.
Jean Schilling:
Unfortunately, we do not.
Denalee Bell:
And that's where the toxic masculinity comes out that we have to combat. We can't just wish it away. And I think that's what the movement tries to say, "Well, men should just be able to look away." Well, they should, but they don't all because not all of their moms taught them too.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Yes. That's true. True.
Denalee Bell:
And so if you get to wear what you want, they get to look if they want, but you can't have it both ways. You got to have the freedom. And so these gym girls who are complaining about people watching them and then go, "These guys are leering at me," but then there's no one in the gym, which is also a funny... This is just a side note. It's funny like, "Nobody's watching you, girl. There's no one in the gym. It's just you."
Jean Schilling:
There's no one there, honey. You don't need to worry about it. Yeah.
Denalee Bell:
Do you hear voices? But I think it's a lot of it's for attention on social media to get clicks to get-
Jean Schilling:
Right. Everybody wants likes, yeah.
Denalee Bell:
Yeah, just like we're going to do on this, we're going to try and bait you in with the hot topic so that you'll watch the whole video. And so please do like and subscribe. It does help us. So I guess we disagree.
Jean Schilling:
We disagree. I mean, I really think you should be able to wear whatever you want and wear it any way that you want.
Denalee Bell:
I think you can too. But you should also be aware there's consequences. You're going to be treated differently.
Jean Schilling:
I still disagree.
Denalee Bell:
So you don't think men will treat a girl who's scantily clad differently than a girl who's dressed modestly like you?
Jean Schilling:
I think certain men will do that.
Denalee Bell:
Yeah, I do. But you have to expect that.
Jean Schilling:
Yeah. I suppose there's some, okay. All right.
Denalee Bell:
Yeah. I'm just shocked. I don't care if they dress like that. I don't care, unless my husband's around. No, I'm joking.
Jean Schilling:
Right, exactly. I'm like, I'm not going to look at them anymore than you're like... What?
Denalee Bell:
I mean, I do look because I am fascinated. But honestly, from my end, it's truly usually with somebody can pull it off, it's an appreciation of, I know what it takes.
Jean Schilling:
Right. You're like, "Dang, okay."
Denalee Bell:
And obviously I don't do it. But also I think about the men in my life. And how do you have to handle that? You have to force yourself to look away. You have to change who you are. So the women never have to change who they are now. So we're going to suppress the men, and you we're going to take away all your assertive aggressiveness, your biological visual. I mean, men are visual, right? We're going to pretend like that doesn't exist for the women.
Jean Schilling:
Okay. Well, this comes back to the whole Kardashian thing. Who were they cosmetically altering themselves for?
Denalee Bell:
For billions.
Jean Schilling:
Right, because clearly there's a market for it. And that's the tragedy of the whole thing, is that it is becomes...
Denalee Bell:
I don't mind that they did it. It makes me sad that other girls thought they had to do it, to be like them, like it was going to change their life.
Jean Schilling:
Right. This is beauty of women is really being in our own essence and just allowing that essence to be exactly how you are without having to do anything. And to me, clothes can enhance you feeling that you got it right. You know what I mean? For yourself. It isn't for somebody else. To dress is to really feel that you are doing it for yourself and you're like, "Oh yeah, I feel really good in this."
Denalee Bell:
So this is the next toxic feminine trait out of order. But since you went this way, I thought we'd segue. Who do women dress for? Which is an interesting thing. I think a healthy woman dresses for herself.
Jean Schilling:
Yes, 100%.
Denalee Bell:
A toxic woman, who apparently I am, dresses for other women. And I didn't look at it this way, but we read the book called The Anti-Mary, or I didn't read the whole thing. Have you read the whole thing?
Jean Schilling:
No.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. So we started reading the Anti-Mary, and it was interesting take on why women dress for other women, and it was for power and influence amongst women. So I had been told always to dress by my stepmom. In case you're watching this, love you. She had said, "Always dress up a step better than what you think it's going to be, then you'll always be comfortable."
Jean Schilling:
Oh, wow. Okay.
Denalee Bell:
And it's true. I always felt comfortable because I would... Oh, there's a fly in your hair. Look like Mike Pence for a minute.
Jean Schilling:
We cannot have that.
Denalee Bell:
But I would feel comfortable because I always felt okay. I'd rather be overdressed than underdressed. And so that made sense to me, but then it became an issue, where when we had more money, it was more of a competitive thing. Do I have the right handbags? Do I have the right stuff? So when you go in the room, you're more comfortable. And you know we live in an affluent area where things like that matter, and I was much younger at this point, and before we lost everything financially. And I had to sell those handbags on eBay to eat.
Jean Schilling:
Well, lucky you [inaudible 00:34:10].
Denalee Bell:
Tell my husband that. He never got it. But I get her point was like, if I'm dressing for women, what's the motive? So I can look better than them? Kind of toxic, isn't it?
Jean Schilling:
It is very toxic. I agree with that.
Denalee Bell:
If I'm not just dressing so I feel good about myself and feel confident in any setting, it's a little different. Interesting I've never dressed for my husband.
Jean Schilling:
Okay, that is interesting.
Denalee Bell:
Yeah. I mean, 'cause I don't think he cares.
Jean Schilling:
They don't. They don't.
Denalee Bell:
He's like, "Yeah, that's a nice dress." I'm like, "I wore this 24 times. You're just pretending you've just seen it?" He doesn't care, but he just knows to say the right things because I've been a toxic feminine saying, "You need to compliment me more," because he knows the rules.
Jean Schilling:
Right. He's a very good husband.
Denalee Bell:
He is a very good husband to put up with all of this. This is a lot. It is. Well, you know.
Jean Schilling:
I do. I do. And I just think we make it so hard and it really is not that complicated.
Denalee Bell:
Well, and just being aware of it. Being aware of like, "Okay, why are you getting dressed this morning?" It's made me think about it. It's made me think about, "Is this for you?" And I'd never thought about it before.
Jean Schilling:
I wore a dress today so that I felt more feminine.
Denalee Bell:
That's pretty. You look pretty.
Jean Schilling:
Thank you. But that's the whole thing is, what are my thoughts? And why am I having those particular thoughts? And how then do I keep my thoughts from affecting the way you are thinking of me, the way somebody else is thinking of me, and just stay, again, clean in my own lane. Yeah.
Denalee Bell:
"Clean in my own lane." I like that. That turned into a long...
Jean Schilling:
It did.
Denalee Bell:
So I think of this new victimhood status women have had. It's not really new. So I think of my mom's, like we talked about earlier in the eighties, and parents getting divorced. I feel like those women were victims. And I just watched an old Phil Donahue who show from that time where these women were getting divorced. And I think Glen Campbell, he was an old country music star. His wife was on it. And they had these divorcees.
And they were talking about, and it was in that time, it was in the eighties. And it was interesting to watch. And I go, "This is why feminism took hold. This is totally why these women lifted up these men, paid for their education as waitresses, worked their time off. And they were left for something more sparkly and shinier. And they didn't have the skills like my mom. She went back to waitressing and eventually built herself up. But it was a scary thing. So I mean, in essence, there was a whole generation of victims. And then the children became victims of this life of being latchkey kids, of not having any parents at home now.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Yeah. Do it yourself. Yeah.
Denalee Bell:
It was a trend for these men to go get younger women closer to the kid's age. And I think it still happens, but it was a big trend back then.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Sure.
Denalee Bell:
And I think that's what has got this ball rolling and created this victimhood that we are attached to, not we, me and you, but women, some women. But it's also what we're selling to the younger girls 'cause now they're saying, "F the patriarchy."
Jean Schilling:
Right.
Denalee Bell:
Which I'm like, "Okay, so the matriarchy, it should be above?'
Jean Schilling:
Right. Exactly. No, no, no. Okay. So here's the thing with victimhood, it exists. And if you really sit in yourself, again, come into yourself. Every person who has ever been wounded, any suffering, any loss of anything that makes you a less than. And therefore, yes, you are the victim of that situation, which is so unfortunate. But the healing aspect of the victim is not to look at yourself in that way repeatedly all the time, no matter which direction you're going. From that space, there is no healing. So the process of it is to really understand what it is that you're feeling. Give yourself permission to feel it on every level and every way, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically, and really have that wherever your emotions take you. And then the healing piece of it is to really go, "Wow, how can I discern? Where is my clarity? And how do I move forward without continually telling the story of..."
Denalee Bell:
"This happened to me."
Jean Schilling:
"This happened to me. My parents are divorced, therefore, I'm a victim. I am a woman, therefore, I'm a victim. I don't have a job right now, therefore, I'm a victim. I don't have a house. I don't have this. I don't have that." And continually playing that, "I am the victim of the situation."
Denalee Bell:
And you're continuing to be a victim, then you don't get to rise above.
Jean Schilling:
Right. It never gets better. It never gets better until you have to set that story down and really decide how do you want to do it.
Denalee Bell:
This is just my opinion. I think it's okay to wallow for a minute.
Jean Schilling:
Absolutely. Please.
Denalee Bell:
Let's wallow in a minute, like this happened.
Jean Schilling:
Yes, but that's not patriarchy's fault.
Denalee Bell:
No. And it's not five years down the road. We don't want this going on for years like, "Okay, this something bad happened to me," let's just say.
Jean Schilling:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
I can't stay there for the rest of my life if I want to do what I was created for.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Where is the gift in this suffering? And as the victim in victim hood, you can't see the gift in that because you're constantly living in the-
Denalee Bell:
Constantly mad at the patriarchy.
Jean Schilling:
Right, you're living in the past.
Denalee Bell:
Yes.
Jean Schilling:
What's happening in the present?
Denalee Bell:
And I won't say I wasn't one of these girls who said, "F the patriarchy at some point." I thought men were the problem. I truly did.
Jean Schilling:
I worked for myself for that exact reason. Nobody tells me what to do or how to do it, or when to do it, or why I'm doing it or anything. I mean, that's the reason I went into it. But in that space, from moving through my own pain, suffering, victimhood. I mean, I was abused as a young kid for a very long time from somebody in my family and all of those things. And you can stay in that pain for, I mean, an eternity.
Denalee Bell:
Righteously so.
Jean Schilling:
Yes, absolutely.
Denalee Bell:
But it would serve you?
Jean Schilling:
But it doesn't serve me to continue to perpetuate my own victimhood. And the only way you can get out of that is really starting to peel off the why. Why do you want to be that way? What has happened to that group or that person, or men in general that you think attacking them or trying to be better than them or bigger than them, or more important than them, gives you the feeling of healing? How does it do that? It doesn't.
Denalee Bell:
It doesn't. It's like revenge.
Jean Schilling:
Yes, exactly.
Denalee Bell:
You don't kill someone 'cause somebody got killed.
Jean Schilling:
Right, exactly.
Denalee Bell:
It's just wrong, right?
Jean Schilling:
Right. This is the whole thing with the abuse in general. You've been abused in some way, however it is. If you're a parent and you find out that somebody abused your child, oh my gosh, the intensity of that emotion of wanting to kill that person is very real.
Denalee Bell:
Just take it back. We shouldn't kill.
Jean Schilling:
Well, I mean, right, exactly. But you want to desperately hurt that person...
Denalee Bell:
Person who hurts my child.
Jean Schilling:
Who hurts your child in any way that they hurt your child even more. But that is a normal reaction to the situation.
Denalee Bell:
Which is actually my anger towards this toxic femininity 'cause I think it's hurting the men in my life and how they move forward.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Exactly. So how can we start nurturing the women in a way that gives permission to men to be who they are instead of continually-
Denalee Bell:
To try to control them and change them.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Exactly. You're like, "No, I want you to be strong." I mean this is the I beauty of, I think the masculine in general, which is, I am an anxious flyer. I actually hate being on airplanes.
Denalee Bell:
You travel all the time.
Jean Schilling:
I know. I know. But I've always had these moments when it's been, the turbulence has been so much that I'm like, oh my gosh. And when you're sitting next to men, they just do this magical thing. And I don't even know this person, but they just do it. You're like, "Oh my gosh, I need to just tuck underneath you for a second," so that I am not terrified. And they're like, "Okay." And they do this breathing thing.
Denalee Bell:
They use strength for good.
Jean Schilling:
Exactly. And it's very grounding, and it's very safe. And it's either they're consciously doing or they're unconsciously doing, because I think it's just so natural for them, especially in the-
Denalee Bell:
It's the same as us picking up the puppy.
Jean Schilling:
Right, exactly.
Denalee Bell:
It's what they were created to do. They were created to protect us
Jean Schilling:
Yes. And to help us feel co-regulated in our own nervous system. Most people don't know how to co-regulate themselves, and you really cannot co-regulate without somebody, but men and women. It's just this natural ebb and flow of your nervous system. And it's meant to be that way. This is the whole Yin and Yang.
Denalee Bell:
That is how my husband and I, it's like this dance when he knows I'm other than this morning, there's a dance when one of us gets high stress, the other one just comes in and does the thing. He comes in and protects me and helps me take care of it. I come in and nurture him in the way he needs to when it's his deal, because that's who we are, who we were created to be.
Jean Schilling:
Yes. 'Cause it based on mutual respect.
Denalee Bell:
Yes, and biology.
Jean Schilling:
Yes. Yes. Exactly.
Denalee Bell:
There's a usefulness in our genders.
Jean Schilling:
Yes. We need both.
Denalee Bell:
Yes.
Jean Schilling:
We need both.
Denalee Bell:
We do. And both are important.
Jean Schilling:
Yes, absolutely.
Denalee Bell:
And that takes us to the next topic. We need both.
Jean Schilling:
We need both.
Denalee Bell:
There is viral TikToks going around that really are about men bashing and men hating. I don't know if I'm saying this word right, misandry. It's a man-hating. It's a man-hater. There's groups of them. They hate men, and they're proud of it. And their arguments are that men are not necessary. That we don't need men as long as you have the right sexual device and a Turkey base, there's really no need for a man, right? Because what else-
Jean Schilling:
It's making me blush.
Denalee Bell:
What else are they good for?
Jean Schilling:
Right. Okay. Terrible, but okay.
Denalee Bell:
It's horrifying.
Jean Schilling:
Yeah. Right.
Denalee Bell:
It's horrifying. And it's horrifying that there's maybe men in my life who wouldn't speak out against it because they don't want to be the patriarchy. It makes me insane. We all have to stand up respectfully. I mean, you don't need to go beat up a girl who's saying this.
Jean Schilling:
Right. This is the whole thing.
Denalee Bell:
Pain, which they wouldn't.
Jean Schilling:
This is the whole thing about pain. My pain is my pain. If I'm giving you pain, that's not okay. If you're giving me pain, not okay.
Denalee Bell:
It's not okay.
Jean Schilling:
No, it's not okay.
Denalee Bell:
It's now how we rise above. We don't step on somebody to get above.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Exactly. We need each other.
Denalee Bell:
Sorry, I'm a little heated about this one.
Jean Schilling:
We need each other. We do. We need each other. And the more that we can come into community with each other, and that includes everybody, whomever. But you cannot have community without the strong and the weak. You have to have both.
Denalee Bell:
I truly believe an island full of women wouldn't last a week.
Jean Schilling:
No. Right. Exactly.
Denalee Bell:
We would kill each other.
Jean Schilling:
We would kill each other.
Denalee Bell:
You would see the most brutal war, especially if somebody had chocolate. Somebody didn't. Maybe Oliver.
Jean Schilling:
Oh my gosh. Right.
Denalee Bell:
Somebody didn't, it could be over. Women are kind of mean to each other.
Jean Schilling:
Kind of mean. Mm-hmm. I agree. I agree.
Denalee Bell:
Have you seen that movie Mean Girls? It's been so long.
Jean Schilling:
It's been so long.
Denalee Bell:
So this is a prime example of art reflecting life, where we have these girls who bully other girls. So these are the cliques. It's a clique or a group. And you don't see men do this. Men don't click up and group up like a pack of wolves. Women do. I mean, I guess that's not true because remember that movie Witness with Jodie Foster in Accused. The men did actually gang up and abused that woman. They raped her. So that is bad. But that's not like your normal day-to-day life, right?
Jean Schilling:
No.
Denalee Bell:
And a woman will never get in trouble for this, right? You see that you had cliques in high school? In college, wherever. They exist. The exist in the hometown I'm living in right now.
They exist in my hometown that I live in right now and women my age.
Jean Schilling:
Right.
Denalee Bell:
Yeah. Okay?
Jean Schilling:
There's
Denalee Bell:
A group of women in society or in school, and they bully other women. They pick them apart. They do it together. And it seems to be, for some arbitrary reason, it could be, I don't know what it is. Even in the movie, they're picking on somebody that's different for whatever reason, but it could be anything. And then they're going to align, get everyone on their team, align their forces for their war against one girl.
Jean Schilling:
Awful. Awful.
Denalee Bell:
I know. I did that in high school once, or maybe not high school maybe it was junior high. I got in big trouble for it.
Jean Schilling:
Okay. What were your consequences?
Denalee Bell:
I got called in. I mean I'd never been in trouble before. And I had, this girl just bugged me, and I don't know why. And I said something that wasn't nice. I'm not going to say what it was. We are now friends, and I don't want her to hear this. And it was mean. I'm going to say it. So I told her she was adopted.
Jean Schilling:
Oh, wow.
Denalee Bell:
I know. This is how gross I was. And then she said something about, I can't even say this I'm too embarrassed. It was so horrible. And I don't know why she bugged me, but when they took me in the office and talked to me about how her feelings were and how this had become a big family issue in their house, I didn't realize that maybe she was adopted. I didn't know. You know what I mean? And they had explained to me really the psychological trauma that I could cause somebody. I mean, they handled it really well for those. I mean, that was in the eighties. They handled it really well. And I did feel bad. And I did apologize to her. And I think I apologized to her repeatedly.
And then we went into high school and we were good, because that breaks itself up. But it was gross. How toxic. Why would I do that? I think if we're not aware that we could do this. I mean I would hate to say that because I've been friends with everyone since then. You know what I mean? It was probably a good experience for me. Horrible for her. I'm sorry. I had to learn on her dime. But you can see it. I was bullying her. I'm sorry.
Jean Schilling:
Mm-hmm. So sorry.
Denalee Bell:
It's embarrassing because it's so gross. See, I'm in every one of these, every single one.
Jean Schilling:
I think that's the whole thing, is that every... We all are guilty of things that we have said to people that you can't take back.
Denalee Bell:
No. And you don't realize how you've hurt people.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Exactly.
Denalee Bell:
The other thing women do in this is we gossip and we think it's harmless 'cause we call it venting. That makes like, "I'm not really into goth about this. It's really just me venting." But it's really just me talking bad about somebody.
Jean Schilling:
I mean, I have a hairdresser that I stopped seeing because I found out that... And I mean me. Why are you talking about me? I mean, really? And so I found out that they were saying things that I just thought, "That's bizarre. Oh my God, I'm paying you to do my hair. And you're saying things about me that have nothing to do with it." I mean I don't really like makeup. I don't really do my hair. I just don't.
Denalee Bell:
You're who you are, and you like who you are, and you're confident in who you are. I love that about you. You inspire me.
Jean Schilling:
Thank you. We can all just relax. It's okay. I think it's the more of our own essence that comes out that is seen, I just think it's far more beautiful than makeup or anything, or clothing, or handbag. And none of that can make you beautiful.
Denalee Bell:
No, it makes you gross.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Exactly. It's this whole essence. But they gave me such a hard time about not knowing how to wear makeup or how to curl your hair. I mean, and there's that part where you're like, "I really think your hair is cute. How do you do that?" And instead of it just being that, I actually found out that they made fun of me for it. And I was like, "Well, I am not giving you any more money. Sorry."
Denalee Bell:
Good for you.
Jean Schilling:
But I think it's in the nature.
Denalee Bell:
And it hurt your feelings, didn't it?
Jean Schilling:
Right. It did hurt.
Denalee Bell:
And she doesn't even know how much it hurt you.
Jean Schilling:
No. None. No.
Denalee Bell:
See, I don't think we understand the pain that we inflict on others, or that the unintended consequences of gossiping is me talking bad about a new friend or somebody I just met to you, now that helps you to form an opinion that might not be fair 'cause this was our interaction. That doesn't mean it would be yours. This is why it's so unfair.
Jean Schilling:
Right. You don't say anything. When people ask about my family, I am one of 10 kids. There's a multitude of personalities. Some of us really get along, some of us are like...
Denalee Bell:
Well, how could you all get along? 10 of you?
Jean Schilling:
Right.
Denalee Bell:
We have two of us in this house, and sometimes we don't like each other.
Jean Schilling:
But I don't tell people who my siblings are. You just like, "Well, it's my younger sister, blah, blah, blah. Or my older sister or my brother, or whomever. But I can't tell you any stories. You don't know them. So here you meet them, you'll meet them. We'll go to dinner, and you make your own decision on who they are.
Denalee Bell:
That's nice, right?
Jean Schilling:
Right. Because, again-
Denalee Bell:
I did tell you a lot about my dad, didn't I?
Jean Schilling:
Well, here's the thing, in a big family-
Denalee Bell:
He did die.
Jean Schilling:
Yeah.
Denalee Bell:
So you could form an opinion.
Jean Schilling:
I know. I'm so sorry. But, right, exactly. But that's the whole thing is, if I start telling stories about people, and especially in my family, and then it comes back to my family, I mean, this is like, it hurt them. Right. Exactly. And nine people going, what? You need to sort this out. And you're like, it
Denalee Bell:
Could hurt them directly, but
Jean Schilling:
It
Denalee Bell:
Might hurt them in a way they don't even know. Maybe they don't get a shot at something because you said some innocuous comment that somebody goes, "Oh, I can't trust that person 'cause they did this to Jean."
Jean Schilling:
Right, exactly. I can't give them the job that I'm like, "Oh, yeah, my sister is the perfect job for, or the perfect person for this job. And they're like-
Denalee Bell:
But you just said she was mean to you that one time.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Exactly. And you're like, "Oh, no, that's not what I wanted."
Denalee Bell:
I mean we just don't know. We don't know how far along those folks who I think... And this is how women put people in line. We back a bite. We gossip. We triangulate. We form alliances to control. And you can see that happening even in a political movement right now. And I don't want to beat up on one side or the other, because I think both sides are probably not all perfect. But I will say this about the feminist movement, because they're obviously far liberal women. If you fall down, the idea is that if you're part of the feminist women, we're going to pick you up. You're a woman.
But guess what, not if you don't agree with all of their tenets. So if you don't believe, abortion's a great plan. And I used to think it could be justified years ago. And so I was one of these women, but now I've changed my mind. And so guess who gets kicked out? I'm not saying that I want to beat up women who have gotten an abortion. They're in a tremendous amount of pain. I want to nurture them and hold them and tell them, "You're going to be okay." But you will probably-
Jean Schilling:
There are amazing resources for you if you have that as a situation or a story in your life.
Denalee Bell:
Yes, that my fight against it isn't against them. It's against the system that's telling them this is no big deal and a baby is a clump of cells, which is also this feminist movement who use semantic manipulation to change the meaning of words. So the new thing is, a baby is no longer a baby, it's a clump of cells. They just dehumanized babies. So my frustration is with these young girls who don't understand, it's just like, I didn't understand with my mom, you can't trust men anymore. This is what you're growing up to believe. This baby is a clump of cells. And if this happens to you, no big deal. And hookup culture, the sexual revolution brought us, right?
Jean Schilling:
Right. But this is part of the whole feminism in general, was to devalue the intimacy of one-on-one relationships.
Denalee Bell:
And it's worked, except this sex that these girls are having, casual sex, they're learning too late, that it takes a piece of their soul every time, every time.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Exactly. Yes.
Denalee Bell:
And it diminishes their self-worth every time, that they're then rejected, even though they say they're tough and this is what they wanted. I don't believe them. I don't. I just don't. Because I lived a life before I got married and thought that I was that girl. I was not.
Jean Schilling:
Nobody is. And this is the lie that they're trying to tell you. If you just continue to believe this, then you're going to be fine.
Denalee Bell:
And they're not. And you see these broken women-
Jean Schilling:
No, and you don't realize it until you're in your thirties or forties.
Denalee Bell:
And you're thinking about the baby that you lost or their soul that you-
Jean Schilling:
You have a kid. Right. Exactly. And now there's no possibility of-
Denalee Bell:
And there is repair of all of it.
Jean Schilling:
Yes, absolutely. Healing, mercy, grace.
Denalee Bell:
God is a healing God. God is a forgiving God. We don't have to live there. We just don't. But I don't like the whole institution that's trying to create more of it, like it's good. I don't know if you've seen the abortion activist who say, "We kill babies. It's demonic." You know what I mean? It is. It's just promoting a whole economy. For what? For medicine, for stem cell research, for baby parts. I mean, it's really a gruesome thing that I don't think these young girls understand. So when I talk to young girls like my son's age, they don't understand my point of view at all. They think I'm making this stuff up. I have to literally send them, no, they just got in trouble for saying they just got in trouble. They're using these parts for stem cell research. They need the babies. It's an economy. And I get their position 'cause I had it too. Well, if somebody was raped, I mean, that's still their choice. But it doesn't take the rape away. It doesn't take the rape away.
Jean Schilling:
Right, the pain or the stain of it.
Denalee Bell:
It doesn't take that pain away.
Jean Schilling:
No. And I think that, I mean, this is the piece of having more conversations. We need to have more conversations and not just watch it on TV or whatever, or read it in some TikTok. I mean, oh my gosh. Yeah.
Denalee Bell:
Yes. Or on here.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Exactly. Yes. My niece was in college a few years ago, and she's a mother of two. She got married at 21. They had babies. They're beautiful. Her kids are awesome. I absolutely love her and her husband. They just are fantastic. But she too, very Christian in her background, had to do a paper. And her paper was on abortion and why it was bad and not good.
Denalee Bell:
Did she feel that way or did she have to pick at the time?
Jean Schilling:
No, at the time, she absolutely always felt that way. Because we've always been, I mean, my mom had 10 kids.
Denalee Bell:
I mean, I was a Christian and felt that way.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Exactly
Denalee Bell:
The other way.
Jean Schilling:
Oh, really?
Denalee Bell:
I did.
Jean Schilling:
Interesting.
Denalee Bell:
I know, until you have kids. And then you're like, "Oh, you're a miracle from God."
Jean Schilling:
Right. Exactly. I mean, it's like, oh my gosh, they're so amazing. I don't know how... Anyway, we won't go into that either. But anyway, she tried to turn in this paper and her professor wouldn't take it because she was pro-anti. The whole paper was anti-abortion.
Denalee Bell:
She hadn't learned to write the paper for the professor yet.
Jean Schilling:
Right, exactly.
Denalee Bell:
We've been doing that for years.
Jean Schilling:
Yes, exactly. She had to continue to rewrite it and then just decided to take the F on it.
Denalee Bell:
Not allowed to have her.
Jean Schilling:
No, she wasn't.
Denalee Bell:
So the patriarchy did strike.
Jean Schilling:
Right, exactly. Even though her professor-
Denalee Bell:
For the matriarchy professor.
Jean Schilling:
Right, exactly, was a woman.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, she was?
Jean Schilling:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, you cannot go against them. The matriarchy is only, only if you agree with all of their tenets. You don't get to speak truth or have critical thinking or have your own thoughts.
Jean Schilling:
That's the sad part of the whole thing.
Denalee Bell:
It is. And I'm okay if you have your own thoughts. We just disagreed a few minutes ago and we're still going to have lunch again.
Jean Schilling:
We're still friends. Yes. We're going to drink cocktails after this.
Denalee Bell:
It's okay. Even if you said you thought abortion was good, I'd probably just keep sending you pictures. I'm just joking. I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do that. But this whole divisiveness, this line in the sand that I think was drawn during COVID, do you think? Or do you think maybe it was before? Maybe I just became aware.
Jean Schilling:
Probably, that would be my guess. The line has been there for a long time in this, we are right, we are doing it this way, we are all the things.
Denalee Bell:
If you disagree...
Jean Schilling:
If you disagree, you need to be-
Denalee Bell:
You're out of...
Jean Schilling:
Right, you should be shunned from society in every possible way.
Denalee Bell:
Yes.
Jean Schilling:
And I think that that is part of the process and part of the book, The Anti-Mary, the whole process it started 60 years ago. And they've really tried to, like now they're celebrating what they created, which is this complete divide and carried down the family and women in general.
Denalee Bell:
They are celebrating. I mean that was the goal.
Jean Schilling:
Absolutely.
Denalee Bell:
That was the goal.
Jean Schilling:
That's the sad part of the whole-
Denalee Bell:
Of the feminist movement of the sixties. They sat together, this cabal of women, of elite women in New York City and created this movement to destroy the family so that women could have more power. That was their entire agenda. They're not shy about it.
Jean Schilling:
No. No. Not in any way.
Denalee Bell:
I didn't believe that.
Jean Schilling:
Me either. I didn't know that either.
Denalee Bell:
I looked it up 'cause I'm like, "No way." Because I thought as feminism, as growing up as empowerment, I could be a woman and maybe I could just [inaudible 01:04:11]. I can walk safe down the street maybe, and I can do the same job as a man. I can get paid the same. I could all of these things, and maybe I could go to work and not be sexually harassed. Those were the things that enticed us and got us in, but it wasn't the agenda.
Jean Schilling:
This is not the agenda. Right, exactly. The agenda is to tear down the family.
Denalee Bell:
[inaudible 01:04:33].
Jean Schilling:
Right. Exactly. Yeah.
Denalee Bell:
Because those are good things.
Jean Schilling:
Right. Absolutely. You should be equally paid for the job, whether you're female or male-
Denalee Bell:
If you're doing the equal job.
Jean Schilling:
If you're doing the equal job.
Denalee Bell:
If you're showing up as a man would. And here's the difference between men and women. Oh, I'm going to get flamed on this. Here we go.
Jean Schilling:
Breathe.
Denalee Bell:
Sometimes women don't show up like men do, and that's okay. I'm okay with that.
Jean Schilling:
Yeah, absolutely.
Denalee Bell:
I've hired women, I've hired men. I will say I always give women more latitude because they might have kids and I understand what it's like to be a working woman, meaning I've got a family to take care of and my kids and my husband come first.
Jean Schilling:
Yeah, absolutely.
Denalee Bell:
And then my household, and then we've got dogs and we've got extended family to take care of. We've got my mom, my dad. Well, you know what I mean. There's extended issues. Those are super important. And I understand when I hire a woman, that regardless of if you think you're a feminist or not, that's just what happens. They're going to take care of the kids 'cause it is what it is. And I'm happy about that. I'm completely happy about it, but I also can't pay that woman the same amount that I'd pay a man for the same job because he's going to show up wholly a hundred percent because he is not going to take care of it. Now, if a man did show up and acted like that, meaning that was his primary role, it would be the same situation. But I think women don't take that into account when they're looking at this pay scale that that's a factor. That it's also a factor that women don't choose those high paying jobs of engineering because our brains are different. And some women just get math really, really good.
Jean Schilling:
That is not mine.
Denalee Bell:
I never graduated from college because of that reason. Statistics and probability are the reason.
Jean Schilling:
I did not do that as a profession. I took a trade and rocked my trade. And again, in my situation, I mean, massage therapists are predominantly women. They're not all women. I get to charge whatever I want. Actually, of everyone that I know, I actually charge more money than all of the massage therapists.
Denalee Bell:
And all fairness, you give more than everyone you know probably.
Jean Schilling:
There's a ton of education. I have done continuing education from the beginning.
Denalee Bell:
This is a career for you.
Jean Schilling:
Yeah, absolutely.
Denalee Bell:
In some people, it's a job.
Jean Schilling:
Right, exactly.
Denalee Bell:
Just like as with anything, some people, they're an accountant as a career, some, it's just paying the bills.
Jean Schilling:
Yeah. This is the job I'm having until-
Denalee Bell:
You're not just paying the bills.
Jean Schilling:
Yeah, until I die. Yeah. This is my life.
Denalee Bell:
And I love that. That's so cool.
Jean Schilling:
Yeah.