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What's on the menu at Lucid Cafe? Stories of transformation; healing journeys; thought-provoking conversations about consciousness, shamanism, psychology, ethics. Hosted by Wendy Halley of Lucid Path Wellness & Healing Arts.
You're listening to Lucid Cafe. I'm your host, Wendy Halley. And we're back. Hey. Thanks for joining me for another episode of Lucid Cafe, a podcast exploring healing, consciousness, and the complexities of being human.
Wendy:And because one podcast just isn't enough, I also wanted to let you know about a brand new weekly podcast I've started with my friend Sarah Finley called Realms of curiosity with Sarah and Wendy. Through candid unscripted conversations, we explore shamanism, consciousness, intuition, dreams, spiritual experiences, and the mysteries of being human in a rapidly changing world. We don't claim to have answers. Instead, we follow our curiosity into the unknown, questioning, exploring, and inviting you to do the same. Because in times like these, curiosity might be one of the most powerful tools we have.
Wendy:You can find Realms of Curiosity in video form on YouTube and in audio form on all major podcast platforms. So my guest today on this podcast is popular therapist, psychology today blogger, and go to relationship expert, Tonya Lester, whose new book Pushback, Live, Love, and Work with Others Without Losing Yourself is like a master class on how to be effectively assertive for anyone whose aversion to conflict has led to struggles at home, at work, or in relationships. Tonya has a bold piece of advice for every conflict diverse person in the world. It's okay to be difficult. Not mean, not rigid, not a bully,... definitely not an asshole! My words, not Tonya's!
Wendy:But the kind of difficult that makes the people in your life see you and understand what you need. Too often, women are encouraged to be nurturers and peacemakers which carries the implied message that they should also not rock the boat. But rocking the boat or being assertive is often exactly what women must do to have the life they want. Tonya is a Brooklyn based psychotherapist and writer known for her work with relationships and communication.
Wendy:Her essay, Couples Therapist Heal Thyself was published in the Modern Love column in the New York Times and she's been writing the popular staying sane inside insanity blog for Psychology Today since 2020. So please enjoy my conversation with Tonya Lester. Tonya, thank you so much for joining me.
Tonya:Thank you so much for having me, Wendy.
Wendy:Oh, you bet. You know, I've had quite a few women authors on the show in the last couple of years who have written books about being empowered. And none of them, though, have kind of touched on the most important part, and that I think is how to actually convey that in a way that your book does. It's super helpful. So you wrote this book, it's called Live, Love, and Work with Others Without Losing Yourself.
Wendy:So, that losing yourself piece. Think, you've hit on something pretty big there. But what I wanted to start with is a quote that I took from your book: Seeking harmony for its own sake is a trap. I'd love to hear what you mean by that and what inspired that.
Tonya:So I think women have been asked forever, but certainly right now, to swallow their own needs, to defer to others, to be, the term I use in the book is shock absorbers, right? To make everything comfortable for everyone around them, while certainly giving up their hopes, their dreams, even as simple as their preferences. I was just reading a quote from someone saying that she hadn't had her favorite pizza topping in eighteen years or something and thinking about what dad has not had his favorite pizza toppings in eighteen years, like you would never hear the genders reversed on something like that. So I think we have been taught that harmony in relationships is our responsibility as women and that it's the most important thing, that having things be calm and pleasant is more important than speaking up and being clear, being authentic, and being known in our relationships. And I really wrote the book because I had seen so many women disappear in their relationships only to finally come to therapy when they were basically done, right?
Tonya:Like the husband didn't kind of take notice until the wife was saying, I can't do this anymore. It's too late for me. I'm finished. And, you know, I think most couples therapists would say very often we see couples about three to five years later than would have been optimal.
Wendy:Yeah, that's why the statistics are not great
Tonya:That's right. It's too late. So I think that I was seeing this happen over and over in a woman feeling like, I can't be known in this relationship. I can't have the life I want in partnership. And so I'd rather do it by myself.
Tonya:And in some cases, that was going to be the right decision no matter what. But in other cases, if there was a lot of love there, and if you have a partner who's really willing to do the work, which, and those are big ifs, but in many cases I saw, I thought, you know, they might have had a shot if they had come in a little earlier. And then a more personal example is my sister, who I'm very, very close to. I really watched her become very diminished in a partnership, and this is someone who is smart, successful, has a really close family, has many, many friends, like, very resourced person. And it really had me feeling like, oh, this could this can really just happen to anybody, you know?
Tonya:And then in the book, I talk a lot about my marriage as well. Like, how does this happen to us? And how can we kind of metaphorically or literally fight back?
Wendy:I can't help but wonder, and I'd be curious about your thoughts about this, about why you think this came to be, this pattern that has it's been it's existed for generations, and I know women, at least in our generation, or maybe our parents' generation, have tried to start pushing the boundaries of equality. Well, in the workplace, but it hasn't translated in the home, maybe. That's what your book is pointing out. And also, yeah, I'm a psychotherapist too, so I've certainly seen it over the years. This is the most pronounced pattern I see when I do couples work, or working with just an individual, with usually the woman in the relationship.
Wendy:How do you think this came to be?
Tonya:I mean, I I I'm I'm sure we could talk about this for days and days. I think primarily what I see and what I imagine, especially if we're looking at it generate generationally in the way that you spoke of, if for years the ideal and we know this actually wasn't even you know, this was true maybe for more affluent, mostly white families. It has never been true for you know, throughout all of history, both couples, members of a couple have needed to work often. But we hold on to this kind of leave it to be verb model of the man's sphere is work, society, government, and the woman's sphere is home, children, family, community, maybe the PTA, that type of thing, and that those are separate. And so how we create a whole is we need one person doing one sphere and one person operating the other sphere.
Tonya:And when women moved into the work sphere, which had to happen, just economically, most people have to work. Right. The men never moved into the home sphere. It wasn't the same. It wasn't like now she's working and contributing in a more economic space.
Tonya:It he he didn't sort of pick up the slack. It's like it stopped there. So I think even as there is certainly more equality in the work workspaces and many, many more people work, and we know, of course, that there's many fewer women in positions of power than men, but certainly we've gone leaps and bounds since, say, the '60s in terms of women having power in the workplace, but I think we still have almost all of the responsibility still in the home. And I just read an amazing statistic that says that a man's contribution in terms of hours spent on family and household chores stays exactly the same whether he brings in 80% of the income or 20% of the income. It doesn't matter.
Tonya:It doesn't matter how much she works. It doesn't matter if she's the breadwinner. His contribution at home does not go up. So that's pretty stark, right? And really shows that we've added a lot for ourselves, but haven't been able to distribute home family work.
Wendy:Right, but your book is pointing out that it isn't an easy transition to make. And I mean, don't want this to be a man bashing episode or anything, I can't tell if this is because guys are resistant or unwilling to add more to their plate, or if it's just because women are not great at communicating their needs or something else entirely or a combination of a lot of things. I don't know. What do you think?
Tonya:I think it's probably a combination. I think that both men and women come into adult relationships with kind of a template for how we saw it go before. So certainly, we inherit expectations from our parents who inherited it from their parents. I do think women are held, and there's tons of research that backs us up, women are held to a higher standard in terms of how much time we put into childcare, what our home looks like, that type of thing, and so I think it's easier for men to be a little bit oblivious. And in terms of the man bashing piece, I see tons of men in my practice and whatnot who want to do better.
Tonya:So it's not man bashing, but I do think we have to start with kind of an agreement, like an agreement that on the reality, which as I see it and as I'm not the only one, many people and there's tons of research that women are starting at a huge deficit in terms of time for leisure, time even to devote to work, that the expectations women have of themselves and other people have of women is just much higher than we than we have of men. And so in some of these cases, it's pushing back in our actual relationship, but it's also pushing back against societal expectations. It's making sure that a pristine home only matters if it's important to us individually. Like, we just can't take every expectation from from the world, from from everyone else, and keep hold ourselves to to standards that are actually meaning meaningless to us according to our own values.
Wendy:Yeah. That's a great point. You start out by giving in your book, you start out with a a really, I I think, a common example that you took from the beginning of when COVID hit, where you had parents now working remotely, both from home to school age kids in this instance, and then the shit unfolded.
Tonya:Yes, right.
Wendy:That came up a lot for me too as I was doing telehealth sessions during that first year of the lockdown, and it was like, Damn. What it emphasized is that this is a really common issue, the dividing of responsibilities within the household to keep the household running. And the guys just seemed kind of resistant to changing it up, and like, hey, what do you mean I should do xyz? For the women who had the courage to say something, that's something else I'd like to get into later. Maybe it would be important to talk about why you, from your experience, you feel women are reluctant to not speak up.
Wendy:If they do it doesn't go well. I mean, and that's a lot of what your book is about is how to say it in a way that it can be lend itself to a fruitful conversation. Right.
Tonya:Yes. Back a little bit to the pandemic example, you know, I think in the example I use on the book and something that does come up a lot is this idea of whose time is more valuable, like whose work is more valuable, whose time is more important. And I think that both men and women sometimes have this default idea that his work, what he's doing is more important. I definitely had that in marriage. Both my husband and I had to really, really adjust our thinking after I started working much more and my practice became much busier than it had been because I did take a step back when my children were little.
Tonya:And then when I ramped up again, we had to do a whole renegotiation. And I think that that if you're not gonna make that explicit, like, my time is as important as yours, that's a huge thing that Ibrodsky talks about in her book Fair Play, which, of course, great, that's a great kind of way to get started in terms of trying to work on your division of labor. But this idea that if we take as baseline that everyone's time is equally valuable, we're going to make some different choices. And if we look at how we spend our time, we can see if we're spending our time in a way that reflects that. So certainly the couple I talk about in my book, he had to kind of readjust between thinking that his job was the most valuable to thinking, no, no, her job is just as valuable.
Tonya:In their case, they made the same amount of money. I think when there's a huge differential in terms of salary, that can be a little bit more complicated, But, you know, we only have everyone has the same amount of days in a week and hours in a day. So, ideally, your partner sees your time just as valuable as as you see theirs. What was the next part of the
Wendy:Well, why it's so challenging to speak up.
Tonya:Yes. Of course. Yeah. And that this is 100% why I wrote the book. One, because people a lot of women don't know what to say, and so I found myself giving scripts all the time in my office, and so I offered a lot of scripts in the book.
Tonya:But then also this idea that you'll either say something so extreme, so mean, you know, like, you're really throwing a hand grenade into the relationship or say nothing. And I feel like very often, I'm like, no. You know, we can say things directly that are kind and honest but clear. Right? Like, we can say this isn't working for me anymore, or I don't like this, or we need to renegotiate how we handle Saturday mornings or whatever.
Tonya:Like, we're allowed to say something. And I think for a lot of people, a lot of women saying anything seems very confronting and aggressive and, like, you're really asking for an argument. And I think that the book originally was called Be Difficult and we changed it because the publisher didn't like it. But this idea of like women, oh man, we do not want to be thought of as difficult when in fact it's really not the worst thing to be difficult. It's okay if someone is a little bit upset about something you said, you can still work it out.
Tonya:Change only happens if someone is unhappy or there's a disgruntled party. And so that if that party is you, like, say something. You don't have to be attacking or nasp, but you do need to speak up. So I think that women are often very conflict avoidant, and I think that the idea of asking for something just because it would be better for you is absolutely not how we're socialized. I think we try and anticipate a negative or angry reactions, like, almost from a safety standpoint, even if we're not talking to a dangerous person to you know, we don't want anyone to be mad.
Tonya:And I think that that really trips us up a lot and gets in our own way.
Wendy:It almost comes across like a self esteem issue. Like, I don't have the right to say these things. Because a lot of women won't say anything. They'll just suck it up. Then we get into the more martyr archetype, right?
Tonya:Yes, the collapse, I say in the book. Like someone who's, it won't make any difference anyways. I'm just going to kind of collapse into this. Right. Which is a very low energy, depressed, depressed state.
Tonya:And, yeah, often the murder piece, like you're talking about.
Wendy:But it that's always a recipe for resentment. Absolutely. Then resentment will eventually turn to contempt. Mhmm. And then once you've hit contempt, there's no going back.
Tonya:No. And then that's when that's when I would see people coming in, he would be saying, we didn't even talk about this. Now she wants to leave. And she's like, yeah. I'm sorry.
Tonya:I'm I'm I'm finished, I can't, there's no going back now, which sometimes is appropriate. I definitely think we have one life. Staying together isn't always the best outcome. That said, if you want to save your marriage, you need to speak up and to do so earlier before it becomes catastrophic.
Wendy:Yeah, yeah. So I guess there are lots of reasons why it doesn't go well. So you're bringing up the going from zero to 60 on the anger scale. If I actually speak the words, they're going to come out so horribly, it's not going to go well. There's the what's the point?
Wendy:Why should I even say anything? I'll just do it. Yeah.
Tonya:Well, it's not gonna get better. He's not gonna change. He won't listen to me. It's not worth the fight. Yeah.
Tonya:I think that these are you know, this is going in a whole other direction, so we can can bring it back if you want. But there is also we are socialized to believe that having a male partner is is the most successful way to live. Right? We are taught that that, like, prince charming kind of is the prize. And so I do think that that can create this kind of one up, one down positioning where she doesn't wanna rock the boat or doesn't feel as entitled to rock the boat because she's afraid of being left or being alone or him being unhappy.
Tonya:I do think that that the self esteem piece is at play often. You know, I don't have a ton of really, really self confident women who are really standing on their own two feet, who are raised in an environment where they really believed what they said mattered, who believe they're equal partners. You know, they don't need to read the book. These people are fine. They're already good.
Tonya:It's certainly not all women, but it's a pattern, as you've said, DC too.
Wendy:Well, yeah, I'm hoping that it's changing as younger generations of men are getting different messages.
Tonya:I hope so, but there's a lot of backlash, you know. We're reading now of Gen Z men becoming more and more conservative while they're while female, Gen Zs are not, you know, it's a concern.
Wendy:The political scene isn't helping much now, is it? Yeah.
Tonya:No, when political is the personal, right? We are affected. At least we have to be aware that we're if we're trying to develop more egalitarian relationships, that we're doing so in an environment that is either supportive of that or unsupportive.
Wendy:Right. Right. What role does guilt play in for women in particular?
Tonya:In terms of this dynamic, this not speaking up dynamic? I mean, I think that there's women who do feel that they are expected to do it all. And so if they aren't, they're falling short and then guilty about that. I see women so often who are so hard on themselves in terms of how they are, you know, they're nine times out of 10 just so loving and really keeping their cool. And then one time, you know, raising their voice or really getting upset and going into the other room.
Tonya:And I'm not saying that's a, you know, I don't think you should turn on your heel and slam the door. I don't think people should yell. I don't think people should call names or anything. On the other hand, we are not robots. We are not Stepford wives.
Tonya:We are not perfect. Being angry and saying, I'm really angry, you know, that's allowed. And I think that some women feel like any kind of loss of control or amplifying a need, if it makes someone else feel badly, then you feel guilty. Or if we someone is hurt, someone is upset, and a thing I really advocate for in this book is speaking up even or maybe especially when you think the person will be upset. Like, this is going to be hard.
Tonya:And if the people around you just shrug their shoulders and are like, it's fine, then you probably aren't asking enough for enough in the first place. Like, changing these dynamics is really, really hard. And I think that if a woman believes she's in charge of keeping harmony all the time back to the beginning of the conversation, she's gonna feel guilty for disrupting that harmony.
Wendy:Yeah. That makes perfect sense. So let's talk a little bit about some of the points that you bring up in your book or behaviors, should say, like shock absorbing. How would you describe that? Give maybe an overview of that.
Wendy:Sure.
Tonya:So shock absorbers are typically conflict averse, typically people pleasing, sometimes but not always perfectionists who believe that the comfort, equanimity, and well-being of those around them are always more important than their own, and so that other people's needs always should be put first. And so if there's any sign of trouble, they will kind of throw themselves on the grenade, stopping any harsh words maybe between the other parent and a child or any discomfort they believe it's their problem to solve, whether it is shock absorbing, like making sure everyone has clean clothes all the time and, you know, some of the stuff, of course, we all do for our children, but it can be from, you know, the person who always has the lunch and the water bottles are filled and make sure everyone gets out the door. It can be that too, doing your kids' essay or or, you know, lying on behalf of your husband to his parents who he doesn't wanna see. It's just like making people, everyone else comfort comfortable all the time.
Wendy:Like really bending over backwards. And then more than that, like, twisting yourself into a pretzel.
Tonya:That's right. Twisting yourself into a pretzel.
Wendy:Yeah. That's an unpleasant thought. What about weather vane emotions? What do you mean by that?
Tonya:So I think we often want to get rid of painful emotions. That's normal. That's human nature. But I think our painful emotions really you know, the weathervane metaphor is because they show us which way the wind is blowing and that how we figure out our truest desires and our truest needs are often when they're not being met and we have either we feel jealous, we feel depressed, we feel angry, that these often can kind of point us in the right direction of making our life better, right? So if we feel lonely or if we feel jealous of someone who's very social, we could say, I don't have enough community in my life, and then we can go after that.
Tonya:So I almost always believe that with any negative feeling, there's a positive corollary that can push us to action to make meaningful change.
Wendy:Okay, yeah. More and more, I've been kind of suggesting to folks that listening to your, like, get out of your head listening to your body and basically what emotions and feelings are coming up, and how that physically feels, because that's going to be the weather vane, the truth about And the then your brain will kick in and want to talk you out of it,
Tonya:Tell you tell a story about about it. Yes.
Wendy:Exactly. Yeah.
Tonya:That's right.
Wendy:But it's not the default, unfortunately, and that's a hard thing to It's so easy to ignore your feelings and all of the ways in which your body's trying to scream at you.
Tonya:Oh, 100%. We have so much knowledge that we ignore by staying in our heads. And one of the best things about therapy, I think almost any therapist will say, you know, Drop down into your body. What are you feeling? What's going on with you?
Tonya:And very often, I'm sure you've had this experience of seeing a client who is so stressed and is so ignoring every sign from the universe that she needs to make a big change. And I think all the time, you're gonna get really sick. Like, that's what happens eventually, is our body's just like, I'm out. You know, I've tried so hard to get you to pay attention to me.
Wendy:So true.
Tonya:Yeah. So I'm a big believer in that and that people who somatize and feel everything in their bodies are really lucky because that is your body being in tune about signaling to you what you need in a way that hopefully your mind can't just keep ignoring.
Wendy:I think those messages are there all the time, though. We're just not
Tonya:listening Paying attention. Yes.
Wendy:Exactly. Yeah. So we can train ourselves to be more aware of that if we want to. I mean, unless you don't want to know what you truly feel,
Tonya:Then you should as you work.
Wendy:One of the really cool things about my favorite husband is that he's a very ethical guy, and one of his things is honesty. And what an amazing thing. I mean, was a hard transition for me to make because of fear of saying being truthful.
Tonya:Right, okay.
Wendy:But having to, over time, learn how to trust that it was okay to do that.
Tonya:And that's what he wanted from you.
Wendy:Yeah, he wanted the truth, right? And so getting over the hump of being able to be honest about how I was feeling, what my needs were, you name it. Because that was not an okay thing growing up in my household. I just got used to just stuffing everything, right? And so, some years into our marriage, I started experimenting with the truth thing, and it's a hard thing for all of us, I think, to be honest with ourselves and most definitely with other people.
Wendy:But the beauty of it, that I wouldn't have predicted, is that I know exactly where he stands all the time. Right. There's no secret,
Tonya:Yes. Nothing
Wendy:Even though some of the stuff he's shared has been hard and some of the stuff I've shared has been hard, it's there.
Tonya:Mhmm. Yeah. It's out in the open where then you can deal with it. Right? It's like then you really you we don't know people, and we don't allow ourselves to be known if we're not honest.
Tonya:And anything spoken, then you can collaborate. Right? And it sounds like even your husband kind of holding honesty as such a value that he wants to say things even if it's hard and wants to hear things. I mean, that's the key piece. Right?
Tonya:He also wants
Wendy:to hear things. Sides.
Tonya:Yeah. It has to be reciprocal. If you have that reciprocal relationship and then you know what the problems are because you've said them out loud, then you can collaborate on the solutions. And without that, there's no collaboration, in which case you're just dancing in your own head trying to make these relationships work
Wendy:Mhmm.
Tonya:Without collaboration, without getting your needs met, and with your sense of self probably shrinking by the day. So I love that you said that about your favorite husband because that is the foundation for You know, we think honesty exists by itself, and of course, most people agree we should be honest, but it's also, it's the foundation for emotional intimacy and closeness, which you do not get without that level of honesty.
Wendy:Exactly. And that's what all of us ultimately, I believe, are craving, is that is physical intimacy is amazing, and it's great, but the emotional intimacy is so rich. To be able to So rich. To bury yourself to someone else and not fear judgment or rejection, that's like can't ask for anything more than that.
Tonya:No. To feel safe in that?
Wendy:Yes. Exactly.
Tonya:That's enormous.
Wendy:Yeah, the reason why I bring the honesty thing up is because you talk about the importance of telling the truth And in your book, it so freaking hard to do that, but I guess what I'm trying to say by sharing my example is that it's now become the foundation stone of our relationship. I'm so glad, because it's taken all of this pressure and weight off. As hard as it was to get to that point, I highly recommend that you try.
Tonya:Yeah. Take chances.
Wendy:Yeah. I mean, all of the things you're talking about in your book are gonna feel risky.
Tonya:Yes. It's supposed to feel risky. Another kind of important an important thing for me in writing this book was not to present it like if you get this just right, everything will be easy and fun and that everyone will be ecstatic.
Wendy:I didn't get that impression from
Tonya:the book. Everyone will be ecstatic to hear what you have to say. It's really hard, and I think we do, people in general and women specifically, a real disservice by acting like, oh, he'll wanna hear it or everyone will immediately fall in line. You know, that never happens. No.
Tonya:No. No and no. In the book, what I hope comes across is that it's worth it anyways, right, and that you deserve to be surrounded by people where you feel safe telling the truth, where your needs matter, and where you can have reciprocal collaborative relationships, not just with a romantic partner, with your friends, with your siblings, with with everybody. Yeah. We should hold ourselves to that standard of relationship.
Wendy:Yes. Absolutely. Communication is an art form. Mhmm. Another thing my lovely husband has said is that it's it's amazing that any of us understand each other at all.
Wendy:Because a lot of the ways in which I'll describe couples when they're communicating in a session is like they're speaking two different languages. They're saying exactly the same thing, they want the same things, they're saying it in ways that are just missing each other. And it is the hardest thing to find words, but to your point, when we're bumping up against each other, especially in intimate relationships, that's where evolution and transformation can happen. It's not like sitting off in some cave somewhere meditating.
Tonya:No, it is relationship.
Wendy:We've heard way too many stories about gurus who've been off meditating for years and then come and start teaching people and then do really inappropriate shit.
Tonya:Yes, exactly. Yeah. The story as old as time is the inappropriate shit following on the heels of all the wisdom gathered alone in the Connecticut. Exactly.
Wendy:But one of the things that you offer in your book are some scripts. You do give some handy tips for how to have some difficult conversations. Yes. Yeah. Or start them, I should say.
Tonya:How to start them. Right. Like I said earlier, like, I I I think of when you're trying to have a conversation, go ahead and write it down first. That's fine. Give yourself the time to formulate something that is clear, is concise, is honest, objective, and that, you know, Brene Brown says, clear is kind, and I love that.
Tonya:I love that as a slogan because, as we said before, we're offering a person who that loves us, the chance to really know us, and so that isn't inherently hurtful. The idea that it'll rub up against something they want is really an invitation for collaboration, and I do believe that when we say something honest, when we give feedback, when we make a request, we're actually working to make the relationship better. And as when someone else does that for us, like you're fighting for the relationship in that moment, it's when we stop doing that that the relationship is probably over in the in the way that I described earlier about people coming into the office and being like, no. No. I'm done.
Tonya:So people do freeze. I I think I'm very good at coming up with the words. I've I like I like the puzzle of that, of saying something simple, simple, simple, honest, straightforward, but I think we can all do it. It's very, very hard in the middle of a heated conversation. I get that.
Tonya:You get overwhelmed. You get mixed up. You're not sure what you want to say. It's okay to take a time out, say, I need thirty minutes to clear my head and then I want to talk about this again and to go off and get yourself clear and then come back to the conversation. And this is also, of course, where a couples therapist can help because you need to help people learn to speak and you need to help people learn to listen without defensiveness, which of course is even harder than they know That's what to
Wendy:a tricky thing, because I'm sure you've heard stories too. I've heard lots of stories over the years where people have tried couples counseling and had a terrible experience because the therapist sided with one person over the other, which is the last thing, hopefully, that should be happening in a couples counseling session.
Tonya:Oh yeah, you're trying to encourage dialogue, not
Wendy:That's an art form too, is doing really solid couples work. I'm not saying I'm great at it, but it's not easy, because it's usually really charged.
Tonya:Oh, yes. Yeah. And, you know, I say to people all the time that individual therapy is, it's a warm bath. It's very comfortable often. It can be hard, but there's usually a lot of validation and encouragement, whereas couples therapy is an ice bath.
Tonya:It's healthy and hopefully really productive, but it is not a warm bath. An ice bath, yes. An ice bath. And it's the cold plunge, but it's like that for the therapist, too. I mean, individual therapy is much easier than couples therapy, but I love, love doing couples therapy because our relationships are the foundation of our life and if I can have a role in helping people with that, that feels very impactful to me.
Tonya:So, and we learn who we are in relationship, you know, to the, we can learn a lot meditating in a cave, but there's nothing, nothing like what we learn in relationship.
Wendy:Yep, I'll drink to that. So, you are a practicing psychotherapist. That's what you do for your living. Yeah, yes. Yeah?
Wendy:And you also are, you do a lot of writing? Yes. Do you have a podcast too?
Tonya:I don't, maybe eventually, but I don't have a podcast right now.
Wendy:If people wanted to learn more about you, how would they connect with you?
Tonya:Yes. Well, my website is toniallester.com. I'm on Instagram, toniallesterpsychotherapy, and I do try and post you know, I'm not the greatest, but I do try
Wendy:to- I'm worse than you. Are you? Likely.
Tonya:Oh, I'll put clips from podcasts and that type of thing. But I am definitely active on Instagram, but my website is probably the best spot. I also write a blog for Psychology Today called Inside Insanity. So that'll be probably the next book.
Wendy:All right. Well, Tonya, thank you so much for coming on.
Tonya:Thank you so much for having me.
Wendy:Hope it's helpful for folks who are listening.
Tonya:Thanks.
Wendy:Absolutely. And yeah, I hope you sell a zillion books.
Tonya:Me too. That would be great. Thanks so much, Wendy.
Wendy:So some very handy strategies for how to speak your peace without being an asshole! If you'd like to discover even more strategies, please check out Tonya's book, Pushback, Live, Love, and Work With Others Without Losing Yourself. I've included a link to her website in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. On the next episode, we'll look at how grief takes our breath away.
Wendy:Until next time.