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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
[00:00:00] Julie: Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, where we dive deep into the heart of staff wellbeing within the education sector. In each episode, we bring to the table a diverse array of guests, including experienced teachers and leaders, experts in psychology, health and wellbeing, as well as thought leaders in the sector.
[00:00:17] Whether you are looking for practical tips, inspirational stories, or innovative approaches to wellbeing, our podcast aims to support, [00:00:25] inspire and empower those dedicated to nurturing the next generation. I'm your host, Julie Liddell, and today I'm talking to Haley White and Victoria Brookbank. Haley is founder of Menno Space, a workplace training consultancy dedicated to menopause awareness and support.
[00:00:42] She holds an MSC in organizational psychology and has extensive experience developing. Based programs to help [00:00:50] organizations create inclusive cultures around menopause. Haley has designed and delivered training for organizations including Oxford University, Cardiff University, the United Nations, the Chartered Institute of Building and Cult Technology.
[00:01:04] Victoria is the founder of Mines That Work and Workplace Wellbeing Consultancy Victoria is qualified mental health first aid I act, and mindfulness instructor [00:01:15] and trained in psychotherapy and compassionate leadership. She has over 19 years of leadership experience and is former CEO of a mental health charity.
[00:01:24] Victoria has designed and delivered training for organizations across sectors from BP and Key Motors to Sury Police and the historic royal palaces. It was a real delight to speak with Haley and Victoria in this episode. Both of them are [00:01:40] incredibly passionate about opening up the menopause conversation in the workplace.
[00:01:44] In this episode, we discussed the impact of menopause on mental health, the unique experience of menopause for every individual person, and the potential positive impact of the employment's rights bill. As well as it being a conversation with three menopausal women who occasionally forget what they're talking about.
[00:02:05] Welcome, Hailey and Victoria. Delighted that you could join me today. Women after my own heart. Um, I know that we all share. Uh, passion and an interest in minds and bodies. And, you know, I really do understand, uh, you know, I really do believe that if we understand the way that our minds and bodies work, we can learn to work with them rather than have them work against [00:02:30] us.
[00:02:30] Um, and I know that's kind of where your passion lies as well. And I also wanna, just before we start, Hailey, you are a fellow t sider, which is really odd given that today we're gonna talk about menopause. And my last guest who talked about menopause with me, uh, author of Menno Apocalypse, Amanda Thib, is also a fellow t sider.
[00:02:49] So I've started to wonder what is it about women on T side [00:02:55] who are kind of a bit, um, you know, inspired to generate conversations around menopause? I'm not quite sure what that is. Um. But I thought I'd just put that in in case anyone picked up on, on your accent. Although you've turned a bit Southern, I'm not gonna lie, Leigh,
[00:03:11] Haley: do you think?
[00:03:12] Julie: Yeah,
[00:03:13] Haley: when I come back up north, when I come back to T side, because all of my family's still there, they say that I'm posh, [00:03:20] but down here they say, you know, I've got a really strong northern accent. So. Depends, I guess.
[00:03:28] Julie: Yeah, yeah. Anyway, it's gorgeous to have you both here this morning. So I wonder if we could start just with a quick overview of your backgrounds.
[00:03:36] Not sure who would like to go first.
[00:03:38] Haley: My name's Haley White. I'm originally from T side, um, born and bred, but I moved to London around. 13 years ago now [00:03:45] to study psychology. So we've got that in common as well, Julie. Um, so I did a degree in business psychology, and then I went on to do a master's in organizational psychology when I was in my thirties and leading up to COVID.
[00:03:59] That's what I did. I was a freelancer. I was in the mental health and wellbeing space, and then like a lot of people who were, who did that kind of work. COVID [00:04:10] came along, lockdowns came along and I lost my work overnight. And then at the same time, around the same time, and I was 40 at this point, um, I started to experience some bizarre symptoms.
[00:04:23] So the first symptom was very heavy menstrual bleeding. To the point where I couldn't leave the house for three or four days at a time. Other symptoms, like not being able to remember people's [00:04:35] names, couldn't remember the name of objects, like the TV remote, um, walking into rooms, forgetting why I'd gone in there, waking up during the night, covered in sweat and anxious and all of these.
[00:04:47] Different combination of things. And I rang my GP and, um, he was concerned about this heavy bleeding. And so he referred me to a gynecologist at the hospital and I ended up having numerous [00:05:00] tests done. And the upshot of that was that he taught me I was perimenopausal. Um, and because I was, I was 41 then, I just turned 41.
[00:05:08] Um, and I couldn't believe that. This doctor was saying basically that I was going into menopause 'cause I wrongly assumed that it was something that only impacted women who are old in inverted. And so it freaked me out, obviously. And I came home and I [00:05:25] started to do some research around what this thing was and why I I was experiencing it.
[00:05:29] And the more I uncovered, the more. I discovered the impact that it was having on women in the workplace. So many of us know about the CIPD and BUPA research that was done back in 2020, um, that that showed that over 900,000 women were leaving work because of a lack of support in the workplace. [00:05:50] Coming from the background, I was from mental health and wellbeing at work.
[00:05:54] I was shocked that it was something that had never been discussed and that led me to where I am, to where I am now. I did a qualification to learn as much as I could about menopause, and I spotted this gap with companies that I've been working with, um, and knew that I wanted to support women at work and support organizations.
[00:06:14] To support [00:06:15] women at work through this. And so I founded my own company called Mental Space, which is nearly three years old now. And um, yeah, I've been working across, um, sectors and across the globe, um, supporting organizations and women at work ar around this topic.
[00:06:32] Julie: Perfect. Lovely, Hailey. Thank you very much, Victoria.
[00:06:35] Over to you.
[00:06:36] Victoria: Yeah, thanks. That's quite a thing to follow. So [00:06:40] I'm, I'm a southern girl if I'm allowed to admit to that. Um, so, but I now, I now live in Devon. I, I was in London for like 25 years, um, post uni. But, uh, so slightly different route into this world for me. Um, I've got a creative background, um, which I.
[00:06:59] Did for many years. And then it just got really, it got too stressful and no clients and all that kind of stuff. [00:07:05] So I moved into the world of mental health because I'd had my own quite profound struggles with depression, anxiety, and other bits and pieces as well. Um, and when I finally sought help, it was a whole kind of, this was in my late twenties, early thirties.
[00:07:21] It was a whole world that opened up around mental health. I didn't even know what mental health was. You know, we're talking like 20 plus years ago. I was 50. And it was [00:07:30] just really fascinating to go on this kind of, I don't wanna use the word journey, it's a bit of a cliche, but you know, this kind of discovery around what emotions are and feelings and all this kind of stuff.
[00:07:39] Stuff that we're just not taught, certainly not my generation anyway, when we, when we were younger. Um, and, you know, it was a really hard time as well. It was kind of interesting, but also really, really difficult with lots of, um, struggles around depression. And so I left the job that I was in and trained to [00:07:55] become psychotherapist.
[00:07:56] Um, and then through various paths, I then ended up running a mental health charity, um, for quite a few years and worked with quite complex people with mental health and did funding and all that kind of stuff. Um, and again, another job that became really quite stressful. Um, so. I realized also because of the experience that I'd had, um, in my [00:08:20] jobs previous to starting at my own company, that the support I was getting in the workplace with my mental health was kind of practically zero and I couldn't even talk about it and people would literally like step backwards when I'd spoke about depression or going to see my therapist or something like that.
[00:08:36] So I thought there's a real. A real gap here. Um, so I left the charity, did lots of upskilling in terms [00:08:45] of the workplace, kind of a bit like Haley did as well. Um, and so eight years on, almost eight years on, um, after Founding Minds that work, I am continuing to support employees, managers, leaders with a whole remit of different interventions and trainings and compassionate leadership and all sorts of things.
[00:09:05] For culture change really in, in the workplace in general. And I've worked with a wide [00:09:10] variety of industries and, and individuals. Um, yeah, so the menopause stuff, um, Haley and I randomly met on LinkedIn through a post that I did 18 months ago or so. She contacted me and, um, she was saying that the intersection between mental health and menopause is.
[00:09:27] Not talked about very much and you know, did we wanna get our heads together, so, so yeah, we did and we've been kind of doing stuff together ever [00:09:35] since. So we've got these different skill sets, different knowledge that comes together really quite nicely. Um, and yeah, and I'm now 50, so I'm definitely. In that per menopause stage, and Hailey and I do talk about our experiences together quite a bit, don't we?
[00:09:50] And laugh about it, but also, you know, it can be quite serious as well
[00:09:53] Haley: and support each other as well.
[00:09:55] Victoria: Yes, yes, absolutely.
[00:09:57] Haley: Yeah. We've got a great relationship where we can just [00:10:00] openly say. I'm having a shit day today or this is happening because of menopause or our mental health and think it's been really well brilliant for both of us in that respect.
[00:10:10] Julie: Definitely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, Victoria, thank you for your honesty there. Aren't you Hailey, kind of, you know, sharing your stories and sharing kind of quite personal, um, you know, your personal journeys for want of that word. Um. [00:10:25] You know, and, and how you've arrived at where you are today.
[00:10:28] And I think maybe these people who join kind of the menopause space, um, is usually because of some sort of personal journey, isn't it? And usually because of some sort of personal experience, um, for sure. So I wonder, Haley, you mentioned some symptoms there. Um. And menopause is often framed around physical symptoms like hot flushes, [00:10:50] irregular periods.
[00:10:51] So I wonder whether we could just focus in on the kind of mental health side of menopause. So anxiety, low mood, cognitive shifts has been a little bit less openly discussed, although. I would suggest more recently that's kind of starting to change. Um, can you give any insight into some of those symptoms and some thoughts around maybe why they aren't discussed so [00:11:15] openly?
[00:11:15] Haley: Sure. Yeah. So as you said. Hormonal changes can have a significant impact, um, on our brain and our mood and, you know, things like our serotonin levels and dopamine levels, et cetera. One thing to to point out is that a lot of women, women don't realize that it's perimenopause that that's causing this shift.
[00:11:35] So that in itself is quite scary. When it suddenly [00:11:40] seems to suddenly come on and without reason, especially for those people that haven't got lived experience already of anxiety and men, um, depression, et cetera, et cetera. And also if they don't have the awareness like what, what other people have, what some of the.
[00:11:55] Like most common mental health symptoms could be things like anxiety, low mood, irritability, loss of confidence, [00:12:05] sleeps, disturbances is, is a big one. And even though that in itself isn't, um, a, a kind of, um, mental health issue, we all know a lack of sleep leads to and impacts. Mentally hugely. Um, and then there's cognitive shifts, like things like forgetfulness, difficulty concentrating, um, brain fog where we just suddenly forget what we're, what we're gonna [00:12:30] say.
[00:12:30] And I think because these things aren't. Visible, like say a hot flushes and because there's still quite a lot of stigma attached to mental health as well within a lot of workplaces. I think many women find it difficult if they work in an organization that doesn't have an open culture, where they feel psychologically safe and where the support mechanisms are in place.[00:12:55]
[00:12:55] Then they're just. Think that they'll just cope and just get on with it. Um, because they don't, they feel nervous or afraid or scared to ask for support and to voice what's happening to them. Um, and that's where, that's where the issue lies. And then also on the other side of that, we've got managers who aren't aware of, of this as well.
[00:13:15] Um, and so it's two, it's twofold. There's a lot of shame around it and [00:13:20] stigma still.
[00:13:20] Julie: Yeah. I think, you know, Victoria, you mentioned that in your other role that you'd felt like there wasn't a space for you to be able to talk openly and. There is still that stigma isn't, isn't there around acknowledging mental health problems that l those associated with menopause?
[00:13:40] Victoria: Yeah, exactly. I think there's a double, a double kind of, um, arrow of [00:13:45] pain there. Really. I think we find it difficult enough to talk about our mental health. Um, it's getting better because of, you know, everything that is out in the press and all the work that a lot of organizations are doing. But there is still this stigma societally and this inner shame and stigma around mental health.
[00:14:02] Like, we're not good enough, or maybe we just don't even know how to talk about it, because it's just not something that we're used to. So if you've, if you are [00:14:10] adding the symptoms of menopause on top of that, it's like a double layer of, of, of stigma and shame and, you know, there's, um, we tend to.
[00:14:17] Concentrate on the physical side of menopause, the physical symptoms of it, like the hot flashes and stuff. And as, uh, Haley just mentioned, and we tend to forget the psychological side of it. So I think also they can be a misattribution to some symptoms. So it can be, oh, she's just [00:14:35] stressed, or that, oh, it's just age or whatever.
[00:14:37] But actually that. May not be recognized as hormonally linked. So there's a misattribution, there's societal stigma, there's inner stigma, there's organizational stigma. Um, you know, if we've got inflexible working cultures. Um, where things like reasonable adjustments aren't even thought about, let alone in policy, um, it can be really, really tough and [00:15:00] that really affects, um, an individual's self-esteem, um, and confidence.
[00:15:04] And this is why we know that the Foresight Society reported that one in four women are leaving their jobs due to symptoms. So, yeah, it's, it's a huge economic issue as well. There's a individual and family issue.
[00:15:16] Julie: Yeah, absolutely. I just wanna come back to, you talked a little bit earlier, Victoria, about that intersection between kind of menopause [00:15:25] symptoms and mental health challenges, and obviously, you know, you, you've just kind of spoke to that again there.
[00:15:30] Lots of women often say to me, how do I know it's not just depression? How do I, how do I know it's not just anxiety? Or they got their GP and they present with a symptom and absolutely have never linked it to menopause. I think. Hailey, your experience of going the GP and the GP kind of being proactive and saying it was [00:15:50] perimenopause is probably just a little bit more unusual, isn't it?
[00:15:54] I'm not sure kind of what your thoughts are around that. How do women know it isn't just depression or anxiety?
[00:16:00] Haley: Well, I mean, although every woman's different and they do experience it in different ways, and of course it can happen to women younger, there is the average. The average isn't there. So we know that it, on average here in the uk, a woman will start [00:16:15] going into perimenopause around the age of 45.
[00:16:18] So we have to hope that gps have the knowledge. Um, the, the knowledge set and, and the experience because as, as I think a lot of us are starting to, um, become aware of. Not all gps do have that knowledge and skillset around menopause. The good thing is that there's so much awareness for women [00:16:40] themselves now to be able to take agency for themselves.
[00:16:43] So I guess we just have to, um, hope that our, our medical practitioners, um, know, know about this stuff, but also to start. Looking into stuff and taking agency for ourselves, to be honest.
[00:16:55] Julie: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that taking agency is really important, isn't it? You know? Um, I'm fascinated by Dr. Lisa Moss's work.
[00:17:03] Yeah. Amazing. [00:17:05] Into kind of the brain changes and, and obviously, you know, very simplified version is that. The decline in fluctuations in estrogen and progesterone kind of alter the brain networks. The brain's going through a sort of rewiring, and what I think is brilliant about that work is that it's validating the experience for so many women, particularly around those cognitive challenges or those kind of.
[00:17:26] You know, that the anxiety, the low mood, but [00:17:30] also supporting the idea that lifestyle modifications or, or lifestyle medicine, um, such as your stress management, your movement, your diet, you know, potentially sort of, you know, CBT or counseling can really play a role. In helping to manage symptoms. Would you agree that that's kind of, you know, really important for women to learn about as part of that agency of, of managing [00:17:55] menopause?
[00:17:55] Haley: Absolutely. It has to be holistic. Um, but it's about women knowing what, knowing this and having this awareness, and that's why it's brilliant to lead. Back to the workplace and, um, workplace is putting on awareness sessions and, and those kind of of things. And also it's, it's always worth mentioning that HRT, um, can be a silver bullet for some women in an absolute life [00:18:20] changer.
[00:18:20] But for other women, they can't take it because of medical history or fam family history or, or simply, some women don't want to take it as well. So it has to be this combination. This holistic approach to helping to, to manage it, basically.
[00:18:37] Julie: Yeah. I'm really pleased that, um, world menopause is day world.
[00:18:41] What, what is it called? World Menopause Day. Have I made that up? [00:18:45] Yeah, on the 18th of October. It's lifestyle medicine, isn't it? It's the focus, which you know, is absolutely fantastic. So let's just talk for a moment about brain fog. I think, again, um, when I talk to women, that's often the symptom that they say causes them the most issue.
[00:19:02] In the workplace. And I know for example, when I really struggled, when my, you know, mind was at it's foggiest, [00:19:10] trying to teach was really challenging. And I think it also affects confidence. It affects performance. And then there's the anxiety that kind of plays into it. Well, if I'm just rubbish, what if I can't do this anymore?
[00:19:22] Um, you know, what, what can we do about it? What do you think, you know, what do you think we could be doing in the workplace as a response to that?
[00:19:31] Haley: So I think as you very rightly said, you know, people can [00:19:35] suddenly forget what they're saying. They could forget appointments, they can forget people's names, and it becomes very frightening, particularly when we don't know why, why it's happening.
[00:19:45] Um, and it can start to undermine confidence. Um, it can have an impact on, on performance. Um, so. There has to be this understanding and this awareness, first of all, I think that that has to underpin everything from an individual [00:20:00] perspective, but also from the organization's perspective and, and the culture of the organization.
[00:20:04] So simple adjustments that can be put in place are, um, flexible working practices, if, if possible. Um, flexible deadlines and using supportive tools like giving somebody access to mindfulness apps. Um, looking up. If an organization's got an employer assistance program, [00:20:25] what can be offered within that is a, um, a, like you mentioned CBT, is that available?
[00:20:31] Um, are counseling sessions available because we do know that stress has a big impact on these symptoms as well, as well as. The hormonal fluctuations. Is there anything else that's causing a person to experience more brain fog, such as pressurized situation at work? Um, a lot of [00:20:50] stress within work and or outside of work.
[00:20:53] And then as well, these lifestyle interventions that you were talking about. Again, it goes, sleep plays a major, uh, factor in all of this. So is a person getting enough sleep? Is this something that, um, an organization can do? To help somebody get some more sleep and maybe by changing their shift patterns over a short period of time and, and things like [00:21:15] this.
[00:21:15] And I think it's really, um, important for organizations to, to know that it's usually the small things that have the biggest impact. And these things don't cost a lot of money usually. Um, and it doesn't, these symptoms do fluctuate and change over time and it's not forever. And, um. Yeah, that's, that's some ideas I think.
[00:21:36] Victoria: I think that, could you mind, can I ask something, Julia? I think underneath that there needs [00:21:40] to be a, um, a confidence and a skillset for particularly managers to feel okay talking about this with their staff and normalizing it because it's a very fine balance between being really intrus. Um, and you know, making assumptions that some the is being affected by perimenopause.
[00:21:58] 'cause it may not be that it might, it might be other outside stresses or they may have had a history of clinical depression and, you know, [00:22:05] maybe there's things that have exasperating that in that moment. So just because someone is 45 to 51 doesn't mean say that they are struggling. So it's knowing how to have kind of safe conversations that are respectful, um, and knowing how to.
[00:22:20] As Haley suggested, equip people with resources, whether that's in-house, in the workplace, or you know, stuff that's out outside of the workplace. Um, and I, [00:22:30] would it be okay if I just go back one little quick question? 'cause that's, yeah. There was just something I wanted to mention and, um, it's now gone completely outta my head.
[00:22:38] Ah, Jesus.
[00:22:40] Julie: Three menopausal women on a call. What, you know, dream team.
[00:22:46] Victoria: Oh, yes, that was right. So it, when we were talking a moment ago about how anxiety and depression may present itself, um, during menopause, and [00:22:55] I think that the one, th one really important thing is we mustn't self-diagnose clinical depression or, uh, clinical anxiety disorder because they are all a mixed set of symptoms.
[00:23:06] Um, that can be quite complex, can be caused for various reasons. There's never one reason why someone may develop clinical depression, so only a mental health professional can diagnose that. If we start to diagnose it ourselves, it [00:23:20] can limit our ability to access the right support also, um, it that inhibits recovery.
[00:23:26] And, and understanding what could be quite a complex condition. So if someone has a history of depression like I do, it could be that it may be more exasperated during perimenopause. Um, but in a way, I dunno if I, I'm lucky or not, but I, I recognize the signs and symptoms in [00:23:45] myself so I can maybe have a, a wiser approach to it, even though it's really hard.
[00:23:52] Somebody who doesn't have a history of. Mental health issues. I think Haley did touch on this. It can just suddenly come on with that. Um, with the hormone sudden change and it can become kind of like a new normal and maybe someone can laugh after it's just my age or it's just my hormones, but actually it can [00:24:10] be really quite serious.
[00:24:11] And we know that also that numbers of suicide rates do go up during this time for women as well. So I think taking this back to the workplace, it's really important that. Managers know how to deal with a crisis as well. I think that's really, really key. Um, yeah, so I just wanted to kind of put that in there.
[00:24:29] Um, particularly if someone doesn't have a history or knowledge of mental health [00:24:35] difficulties or, or illness. If, if it's that serious. You know
[00:24:37] Julie: what, Victoria, that's super helpful because I think it is, it is more complex, isn't it? Um, and it's important that we remember that and that, and I'd say that it's important that we remember that for the wider symptoms of menopause, even the physical symptoms of menopause, I think, you know, the, this newfound knowledge that we are all kind of gathering is absolutely fantastic.
[00:24:58] But to assume that everything is a [00:25:00] symptom of menopause is a mistake as well, isn't it?
[00:25:02] Victoria: Exactly. And, and it's important that we're not over medicalizing. Menopause either because it isn't an illness, whereas depression and an anxiety disorder. Can be an illness if it's clinically diagnosed, this is the difference.
[00:25:16] So yeah, we can develop it during this time, um, if we've never had it before. And that may be also because of [00:25:25] extra things that happen around this age group as well, you know, caring responsibilities for either children or the elderly, or maybe there are other transitions, you know, divorce, relationship breakdown, all this kind of stuff.
[00:25:37] So it's multifaceted. So I think. Haley, would you agree with me that we're not just hooking depression and anxiety as a mental health illness onto menopause? It's a potential, isn't it? [00:25:50] And we need to know how to. Get the help if it's clinical, but also all those holistic everyday things that we should be doing anyway.
[00:25:57] You know, like looking at sleep and diet and exercise and all that. That kind of stuff. And talking about it. Yeah.
[00:26:03] Haley: Yeah. It's very complex, isn't it? And again, everyone's different.
[00:26:07] Julie: Yeah, and I think I've had women sort of just going back to speaking to that sort of midlife, I appreciate menopause isn't always midlife for all women, but [00:26:15] that midlife sandwich generation lots going on.
[00:26:18] And certainly I've had women sort of say to me, you know, that they're experiencing grief and could this just be symptoms of grief? Um, rather than, so it is, I always, my mantra is north size fits all. And my second mantra is share, but don't compare. Because I think that the experience is so unique, but I think it is important for women to [00:26:40] understand that seeking the right advice, thinking the right support, and understanding that it's complex and different for everyone is super important.
[00:26:48] Yeah, I think that's really helpful to raise Victoria. We also know that menopause and hormonal health aren't experienced in the same way by everyone. Um, so there's factors like race, there's culture, there's disability, there's gender identity, [00:27:05] you know, that includes intersex, trans, non-binary, um, all shape the experience of menopause.
[00:27:12] How can we make sure that workplaces do. Support and are genuinely inclusive around this conversation.
[00:27:20] Victoria: Yeah, I think it's definitely part of the wider, um, diversity and inclusion agenda, isn't it, in, in the workplace, um, to include everything and [00:27:30] everybody that you've just said, you know, even neurodiversity as well is really key in, in that, you know, just to talk about the mental health side of that.
[00:27:37] We know that people who are from. Communities like the lt, lgbtq plus, or, um, the, the, the Deaf and Hard of Hearing, or Afro-Caribbean or other groups, uh, who are marginalized around mental health definitely have a [00:27:55] higher propensity to depression and anxiety and don't always access. Services, or maybe they experience discrimination or maybe they come from a particular culture or heritage that is actually mental health isn't talked about, or it's talked about in a different way.
[00:28:14] So. I'm white, I'm British. I talk about it till the cows come home. 'cause I can [00:28:20] now, and it's easy for me, but I mustn't assume that people from different backgrounds to me, um, can do it in in the same way, which is why it's really key to have these sensitivities, um, particularly when we're doing conversations and normalizing as well.
[00:28:33] Haley: Just to add as well, um, a couple of points there and to just to add into the mix, black women tend to experience, uh, going to perimenopause on average. Younger than [00:28:45] Caucasian women and tend to experience it for a longer transitional period. So there's all of these like nuances, um, that, that come into it.
[00:28:54] Um, so again, adding to this com complexity. Um, but from a organizational perspective, again, it's really, really. Important that managers know about this, that they know about the intersectionality that can go on [00:29:10] acro across this. Um, and like you said, Julie, make sure that it's, it's not a one size fits all, um, approach at all times.
[00:29:19] Um, and maybe, um, including menopause in, uh, like disability policies and lgbtq plus policies and, and networks and, and those kind of of things, and making sure that everybody understands. The intersectionality, um, around it?
[00:29:34] Julie: [00:29:35] Yeah, I think it's about decoupling it a little bit as well, isn't it? From that menopause and certainly this was my view of menopause.
[00:29:41] It's something that happens to middle-aged women and that's your demographic. Um. And you know, I've worked, I've gone in to deliver workshops where like younger women have gone, eh, I am not coming to that. I'm too young. And, you know, and not understanding that younger women can experience menopause. That can happen for surgical gynecological, [00:30:00] but definitely not understanding that kind of wider, um.
[00:30:04] You know, sort of experience in menopause that it's so nuanced. Um, and I had something in my head when you were talking Victoria, that's totally fell out of it as well. So if I, if it pops back in, I will come back to it. Can we talk about men then? Um, and can we talk a little bit about bringing men into the conversation?
[00:30:24] Because [00:30:25] I've worked in, um, I've delivered, you know, menopausal awareness training to 700 men. Um, and. You know, I, I think lots of men do realize that it's an important kind of conversation to be part of, but I still think we see it as solely a women's issue. And, you know, how, how can we bring men into this conversation meaningfully while still sort of making sure that it is a woman's [00:30:50] lived experience?
[00:30:51] How can we do that? What should we be doing?
[00:30:53] Haley: Well, not hiding it. We need to start talking about these things as well as menstrual health. You know, these are the most natural things in the world. So I think the, the onus is on, is on women to start having these conversations. And, you know, I'm from where you are from and surrounded by tough northeastern, uh, men.[00:31:15]
[00:31:15] I wouldn't have spoken to my dad and and brother about this stuff before, but now that I'm in this space, they actually have conversations with me about it and they say, tell us more. We, we wanna know than that kind of stuff, which I think is brilliant. But that's only because I'm talking about it because it's the work that I do.
[00:31:32] I would never really expect men. To just start talking about it because it's not, it's not their experience. And I feel like [00:31:40] if we talk to them about it, it gives them, makes them feel safe to talk about it as well. So there's that. But to be honest, it is still quite disappointing the amount of, um, engagement and attendance on training courses and stuff that I experience from men.
[00:31:57] Um, and. It's part of a big, much bigger, wider conversation within organizations about, you know, every [00:32:05] organization I speak to say, how can we get more men on board? And I wish I, to be honest, it's a million, million dollar question and I wish I had a. Definitive answer to that. Um, but by normalizing it, and by make them understand that it, it, it does impact them because they have relationships with colleagues, with partners, and with, um, siblings and, and daughters, et cetera, et cetera.[00:32:30]
[00:32:30] But one thing I have found, those men are more open to having conversations about it. Are the ones who've had an experience of it, either through, um, a colleague or through a partner going through menopause or a daughter going through menopause.
[00:32:46] Victoria: Yeah, that's what I found as well. So one like trainings that are solely concentrated on mental health and psychological safety.
[00:32:53] I will slot in, you know, [00:32:55] the menopause kind of seed and there will inevitably always be a, a man on the training who has had direct experience with a wife who's had or partner who's had particular issues or, or something like that. And that will kind of open up a conversation. So it's kind of almost like we need a bit of a.
[00:33:13] Different in, if you see what I mean. 'cause I was, I mentioned it that you, you were saying Haley just then you'd [00:33:20] speaking about it with your family and they're very open. But I mentioned to my dad that, I mean, bless am, he's in his early eighties, but I don't expect him to suddenly be enlightened around women's issues.
[00:33:28] However he did, I said, this is what I was doing. And he said, menopause. Well don't, don't you women know all about that. And it's like, actually women dunno about it. This is what is really like, shocking. So. You know, okay. That's one man telling me that. But his, his assumption was that we know all about [00:33:45] it and we know what to do, and it's just something that comes and goes.
[00:33:48] And, you know, if we've got a whole population of women who don't really understand what's happening in their bodies and then we, we can't really expect men to be on board unless we are fully on board, you know, and really talking about it. And if you have a male manager. You know, you are like, where are you gonna get the support from?
[00:34:05] So yeah. It's, it's, uh, a lot of work to still be done isn't there [00:34:10] in that field, I think.
[00:34:11] Julie: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the way I got over it with my partner was, um, I made him trained to be a menopause ambassador.
[00:34:20] Uh, so like he could go into the workplace and really sort of champion it. That was, that was my way. My favorite experience of delivering a workshop was with a youngish guy and he sat at the back of the workshop and, um, he was on his phone [00:34:35] for the majority of the session. And you know, when you think.
[00:34:37] I've not connected. He's not interested. And you know, it wasn't your demographic where you'd think, oh, they're gonna be interested in this. Anyway, he came up to me at the end of the session. He went, I've made notes. I've made notes. And on my way home from work tonight, I'm gonna stop at my parents' house and I'm taking my mom's some flowers.
[00:34:56] He said, because suddenly it all [00:35:00] makes sense.
[00:35:01] Haley: Oh, I love that.
[00:35:02] Julie: Yeah. It's intergenerational. It goes up, it goes down. It's daughters, it's mothers, it's grandparents, it's colleagues, it's line managers. It's, it's everybody, isn't it? And, and, you know, and, and it is wider than just menopause. It's kind of understanding what it means to be female and what hormones do and, and kind of, yeah, just having that knowledge and understanding.
[00:35:23] Just makes it a little bit [00:35:25] easier, doesn't it, to, to be going through what you go through. And I think I, I, you know, I think you've kind of covered it a little bit there, Victoria, it's about leaders and managers creating psychologically safe environments, isn't it? And I think almost that's the starting point.
[00:35:41] Haley: Yeah.
[00:35:42] Victoria: Yeah. Well, I kind of like to think that it's a bit of a sandwich. Thing really, because I think the culture needs to be set by the [00:35:50] leaders, which then trickles down to the managers about normalizing and knowing how to have private judgment free conversations and know about the flexibility of reasonable adjustments and signposting and that kind of stuff.
[00:36:01] But I think having those, well be those. Champions, the wellbeing, the menopause champions on the ground at the coalface, if you like. Um, creating the allyship with men and you know, like sharing experience and stuff like that. I think [00:36:15] those two elements come together to form the psychological safety. Um, but I think, I suppose the top, you know, at the top aren't gonna allow the champions and then.
[00:36:25] It's, it's, we need to have both and they kind of do come together. Yeah. There's, there's, uh, lots of things that can be done around psychological safety.
[00:36:33] Haley: Yeah. And that's very important point. We need to get the senior leadership team on board, don't we? Like you say, the culture [00:36:40] comes. From that Cascades?
[00:36:41] From from that,
[00:36:43] Victoria: yeah. Yeah. We've, I think we've both had, Hayley and I both had organizations attend a taster or something and then, um, we have them contact us and it's inevitably, uh, a woman and then they say, we really want this. How do I get into the seniors? They're all male. And that is can be quite a stumbling block.
[00:37:02] Um, I think we still need to crack it. Uh, [00:37:05] but it's same in mental health. You know, it's the same kind of. I guess in, in inclusion and diversity in general. I think this this's all under the same umbrella, isn't it?
[00:37:13] Haley: Yeah. But that's gonna have to change soon when it comes to menopause because of the employment rights bill.
[00:37:18] Julie: I was gonna bring that up. So let's kind of, yeah. We've got this menopause action plan coming into place for large organizations. More than 250 employers, I think it is, [00:37:30] um, voluntary, isn't it?
[00:37:32] Haley: 26 and then compulsory for 2027.
[00:37:35] Julie: Yeah. And what do you see those implications then? What kind of, what, what's kind of gonna be the implications for organizations and employees?
[00:37:43] Haley: Well, it looks like from our discussion, men are gonna have to get on board.
[00:37:50] Julie: There's the solution.
[00:37:52] Haley: So I think that's a, you know, that's gonna [00:37:55] have to happen, especially the senior leadership team. Um, and menopausal no longer just be. Tick box exercise or a nice to have, it'll be more of a compliance issue and it'll be become a natural part of. An employee's rights at work as well, um, to, you know, to have support in place.
[00:38:15] And, and hopefully we'll start to see this safety [00:38:20] around it. And a, a lot of, um, the stigma removed because of it. Mm-hmm. Um, and then also things like, 'cause. There's been a quite a big increase in, um, workplace policies from 18% to 25% in recent years, I think the last three years in the uk, but the amount of women leave and work due to a lack of support is still increasing.
[00:38:43] So you would. It [00:38:45] should be, um, a positive correlation, but it's not. It's a negative one. And so we believe that that's because organizations are getting policies in place and using, um, as a tick box exercise, um, and not embedding them. Um, so hopefully that'll change that. It'll make policies more proactive as well.
[00:39:04] And then we think, we don't know what the action plans. We'll definitely include yet, but [00:39:10] of course, training will come under that. So again, back to the conversations that we've had today about manager training. Hopefully I'd love to see that become, uh, mandatory. Hopefully those organizations will start to look at data and measure the impacts around this and, um, exit interviews and, and all of those kind of things.
[00:39:29] Um, so yeah, I think it's gonna be. Fantastic.
[00:39:33] Victoria: Yeah, it's kind of a no brainer, isn't it? [00:39:35] 'cause if we think of all those women who are leaving the workplace because of symptoms and stress and stuff like that, and no support, they're at an age where they're at their peak of their career.
[00:39:45] Haley: Yeah.
[00:39:45] Victoria: They're most highly skilled place.
[00:39:47] They're probably, maybe managers themselves. They're probably really valuable to an organization. So if they're leaving, you are, you are losing your top talents. Um, who are probably gonna stay until, you know, retirement. Um, [00:40:00] and then, then what happens, you know, you are, you are losing that cohort of really fantastic women who want to offer so much in the workplace.
[00:40:07] And so by having, going beyond that tick box of a policy that sits in a drawer and collects dust, I think is, uh, is really, really important.
[00:40:14] Haley: And how much does it cost as well, just to lose one staff member.
[00:40:18] Julie: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:18] Haley: You know, so it, the organizations need to think about the bottom line as well. [00:40:25]
[00:40:25] Julie: Yeah, and I think particularly sort of in the education sector where it's a, a female dominated sector, like the conversation needs to be, you know, it's key and, and my hope is that the legislation along with cultural shifts, along with that kind of awareness, raising that training, you know, that's where we're gonna get that impact, isn't it?
[00:40:44] So hopefully, fingers crossed, we'll start to see a difference in the next five years. We'll start to see the impact of [00:40:50] all of this. And, you know, maybe it gets to the point which. You know, I would like is where it isn't a big thing anymore. It's not a, you know, we're not surprised when people don't have policies or, you know, people just have them and becomes much more commonplace.
[00:41:05] That's my dream, you know, that comes out of this. Do you think we should be widening? I, I believe we should be widening the conversation to include the full spectrum of women's [00:41:15] hormonal health. Do you think we need to be bringing in. You know, the impact just of, of periods or postnatal transitions, IVS and their, their impact on mental health as well?
[00:41:26] Haley: Absolutely. I mean, it's a no brainer, isn't it? Pardon the pun.
[00:41:31] Victoria: Yeah, I think, I think it really is. You're right because, um, there are so many issues that women can struggle with their menstrual health and endometriosis and [00:41:40] all the other kind of complications and IVF and all sorts of things. And again, it's, it's making sure that we are not.
[00:41:46] Saying that workplaces and leaders and managers need to know absolutely everything. Of course not, and, and it's not a hundred percent an organization's responsibility to care for everything that an employee goes through. I think that's an important message. It's about the awareness and. And allowing people to access [00:42:05] support.
[00:42:05] I think that is the, the main thing. And, and, and having that safety to talk about it and normalize it. So yeah, I think the whole women's health in the workplace, I mean men's health as well, obviously, but I think because of the, the whole menstrual path that we, we go through, I think it's so important, um, that it's prioritized.
[00:42:24] Haley: It's a whole life cycle that, that we go through and just be having an awareness of that. I mean, [00:42:30] it, it, it just seems absurd that. But we haven't been doing this stuff before now.
[00:42:34] Julie: And you know, I think you're right, Victoria. It's not that it's more important, it's as important, you know, they, they're all conversations that we need to be having across the, the spectrum.
[00:42:43] It is men's health. It is women's health. But
[00:42:45] Victoria: I think we are lucky that there's quite a lot of advocacy for talking about women's health in the workplace now. And although I'm not in the field of men's health, I don't feel that there is such a big [00:42:55] voice at the moment for men's health.
[00:42:57] Julie: I agree.
[00:42:57] Victoria: We women are quite good at getting together and like waving our flag, aren't we?
[00:43:02] And, and, and, and like allyship together. Whereas I don't think men necessarily have such strength around that.
[00:43:09] Julie: I think it's absolutely where we need to get better as well.
[00:43:12] Victoria: Yeah, I
[00:43:12] Julie: agree. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Well. We always finish the podcast in the same way, [00:43:20] and um, it's around kind of in the spirit of compassion.
[00:43:24] And I'd like to offer, ask you both, if you were to offer our listeners some words of wisdom, what is one kind thing they could do for themselves today? Anything you like
[00:43:38] Haley: for me, I would say be your own best friend. So when you're hearing negative self talk, [00:43:45] stop and ask yourself. Would a best friend talk to me like this, or would I talk to a best friend like this?
[00:43:52] And if the answer is no, then you need to stop doing it. And I know it sounds quite simple, but the more you do it, the better you become at it. And the more. Positive you will feel
[00:44:04] Victoria: you are not gonna believe it. But Oscar said exactly the same thing because, [00:44:10] because, um, I'm a mindfulness instructor and a large part of that is, is, um, developing self-compassion, which we feel.
[00:44:17] Really, we think it's narcissistic. We don't think we're capable of it. But one of the key elements of true self-compassion is treating yourself like a good friend would. Or, you know, like if you are a, a suffering child and you're a caring parent. So when we hear that we're not good enough, or that our confidence is [00:44:35] down, or we are being judged or whatever, it's, as Haley said, it's pausing and saying, actually, am I being a good friend to myself?
[00:44:41] And if the answer's no, can we soften that? Be kind to yourself.
[00:44:45] Julie: Gorgeous. Thank you so much. It's been absolute, um, insight talking to you both and, um, lots to take away from that conversation. And I think we should get back together once the employment rights bill has gone through and let's talk [00:45:00] about where we see what, you know, the impact has been and where we think it needs to go next, this conversation.
[00:45:05] Um, so thank you very much both for your time.
[00:45:08] Haley: Thank you. Thank you.