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NET Society is unraveling the latest in digital art, crypto, AI, and tech. Join us for fresh insights and bold perspectives as we tap into wild, thought-provoking conversations. By: Derek Edwards (glitch marfa / collab+currency), Chris Furlong (starholder, LAO + Flamingo DAO), and Aaaron Wright & Priyanka Desai (Tribute Labs)
00;00;16;00 - 00;00;17;10
Pri
Hey, guys. What's up?
00;00;17;13 - 00;00;18;08
Chris
Yo.
00;00;18;11 - 00;00;25;03
Pri
We have a special guest today. We have Daniel Keller. Daniel. Wow.
00;00;25;06 - 00;00;25;29
Chris
Much? Wow.
00;00;26;01 - 00;00;31;15
Pri
Yeah. Very much. Wow. I think I missed that Doge meme, actually. Yeah, I haven't seen that circulate in a minute.
00;00;31;19 - 00;00;38;10
Daniel
It had a beautiful formatting. I thought. I thought all the way that the typography and the color and the original one was, was really good. Yeah.
00;00;38;13 - 00;00;42;17
Pri
The Comic sans. Yeah. It's great. Do you want to give a brief intro on yourself?
00;00;42;19 - 00;01;04;18
Daniel
Oh, yeah. Sure. Hi, I'm Daniel Keller. I am a, associate at Aid and Fund. Lead, Metropolis style. I've been working at Tribbett Labs for the last year, and I am a former artist, a slob optimist, and I am a fan of old models and, also new models.
00;01;04;21 - 00;01;23;25
Pri
We'll have to, like, dig into all that. There's so much to talk about. So, just there. Verified. Yeah. Thanks for joining us today. I guess just because it's like, fresh off the presses. Do we want to talk about the Tariff Supreme Court decision at all? Kind of surprised. I haven't seen like a really big market reaction to that yet.
00;01;23;25 - 00;01;47;05
Pri
But, what do you guys think this means? Or any take so far? I mean, literally, this was like, as of, I don't know, I think 30 minutes ago, the Supreme Court strikes down Trump terrorists and imposed using, emergency powers. And I think the decision was, what, three, six, three. So it's going to be very interesting to see.
00;01;47;06 - 00;02;05;06
Pri
I've already seen some hysteria on my time. Let's just like the dollar is done by Bitcoin by gold. I haven't seen the market react quite so aggressively, but the Twitter already is going to say and do what they want to do. But I'm curious if you guys have an immediate reaction to that news.
00;02;05;08 - 00;02;23;20
Daniel
Well, I the fact that the markets didn't react kind of well either it was priced in and people thought it was going to happen, or there seems to be a meaningful chance that you'll, you know, appeal it and there will be more debate whether or not it gets actually overruled, I think is still in question, but I do think it's pretty.
00;02;23;20 - 00;02;27;10
Chris
I thought this was the Supreme Court. Daniels, you can't really go appealing the I think you can.
00;02;27;16 - 00;02;39;22
Daniel
I think you can. Right. Can't you? I'm I'm sure there's a way. There has to. I'm the there's he'll he'll make some other type of case. Right. I, I don't know, I my guess is this isn't that the buck does not actually end here, but I might be wrong.
00;02;39;25 - 00;02;40;08
Aaron
I mean, he.
00;02;40;08 - 00;02;52;19
Pri
Made some comment and I have to corroborate the reality of this, but I saw this in like a random telegram group where Trump was going to say, I have to do something about the courts. So as you can imagine, he's not very happy.
00;02;52;22 - 00;03;04;28
Daniel
It would be pretty funny if he ended up stuffing the courts or attempting to do what the Democrats always threatened to do. But just to make it even more, overwhelmingly conservative. It could happen, I guess. I don't know.
00;03;05;06 - 00;03;18;13
Chris
Yeah, but I would argue this is like, actually an overwhelmingly conservative physician just coming out and saying, you know what? Separation of powers, it's pretty damn constitutional. And, this isn't your job here.
00;03;18;16 - 00;03;22;07
Daniel
Yes, it is conservative. By by,
00;03;22;09 - 00;03;25;09
Pri
Conservatives like Trump's. It's not like Trump's a conservative though.
00;03;25;14 - 00;03;27;23
Daniel
No. Yeah. Conservative isn't really the right word.
00;03;27;28 - 00;03;30;24
Chris
But yes, let's make cash Patel a Supreme Court justice.
00;03;30;24 - 00;03;35;07
Pri
Like not oh my God.
00;03;35;14 - 00;03;46;27
Daniel
I mean, I guess silver is pumping a lot. I mean, there is some reaction to it for sure, and stocks are up a little bit. But yeah, I know it's pretty muted considering what the impact would be.
00;03;47;00 - 00;04;07;03
Pri
Yeah I agree. And maybe the point is because like there's all this like historic, you know, historical drinking around in these decisions. Like maybe people just don't take it as seriously, which is definitely possible. But anyways, I just wanted to get your guys's initial read on that, because obviously that could be a pretty big change in the markets.
00;04;07;05 - 00;04;28;26
Daniel
It does seem like, yeah, in general, this is about Trump, abusing the, the the idea of what a what it entails an emergency, you know, and that that's probably good. Yes. To to to limit his ability to declare emergencies arbitrarily. But yeah, it kind of seems like this is even I still have my conspiracy theory about what was happening in Minnesota.
00;04;28;28 - 00;04;30;22
Aaron
That. What's that?
00;04;30;25 - 00;04;35;13
Daniel
Well, just that we've talked about this in the past, but I think they were, they thought.
00;04;35;13 - 00;04;37;10
Aaron
Our listeners haven't heard that.
00;04;37;10 - 00;04;57;00
Daniel
That's true. Yeah, I think that they thought that by turning up the heat and making a big spectacle in Minnesota, that it would lead to rioting and a pretext to to use emergency powers more broadly. And that clearly kind of backfired on them. I read this as, as related to.
00;04;57;00 - 00;05;00;27
Aaron
That and the Supreme Court having that in. Yes. Like them.
00;05;00;29 - 00;05;03;03
Daniel
Cancel them in elections. Yeah. All right.
00;05;03;03 - 00;05;15;02
Aaron
The permanent state of martial law. Yeah, yeah. So, so maybe our, our fractured decentralized system of governance is mildly working. It's not perfect, but it's working a little bit, I guess.
00;05;15;04 - 00;05;41;19
Chris
So I, I always enjoy checking quote unquote emergencies. It it probably be worthwhile, asking an I how many emergencies are still on the books right now because I bet there's dozens and dozens of just pseudo emergencies that have lapsed. And, you know, whatever enforcement mechanism was used to justify the hundreds is still in place. I mean, you know, we can go all the way back to the Patriot Act here.
00;05;41;21 - 00;05;48;09
Pri
I was literally just going to say the Patriot Act basically is giving like free, free rein to, to for any conflict.
00;05;48;12 - 00;06;04;06
Aaron
Yeah, just so vague. Like I think the more narrowly defined these things are, I think in the long run, they're healthy. I, I imagine at the time there was some good reason for, for those types of laws. But I do think with like, time it just they get a little contorted, unfortunately.
00;06;04;08 - 00;06;10;19
Chris
Yeah. This is like in Massachusetts. You know, we probably they probably still have witchcraft laws floating around that no one bother cleaning out.
00;06;10;22 - 00;06;25;24
Aaron
They definitely do. There's there's no doubt that Massachusetts still has that. I'm surprised. Elizabeth Warren hasn't, dug those up to to go after, you know, some of the corporate interests that that strike or so, sticking across so much.
00;06;25;27 - 00;06;27;16
Pri
Don't give any ideas.
00;06;27;19 - 00;06;32;28
Chris
The legislative agenda of tort matters and freaky goody Stone lingers on.
00;06;33;01 - 00;06;46;21
Daniel
Okay, I actually, I looked I asked Aiden, chat for the for the stats and what are they doing? 5051 active national emergencies. Wow, guys. Each one renews annually. Unless a president explicitly ends it.
00;06;46;23 - 00;06;50;20
Aaron
Which what? What's the bottom half of that? What?
00;06;50;23 - 00;06;59;09
Daniel
Okay, actually, there's a there's a Wikipedia. Like you can find this. I'll, I'll have to look up more information. So keep keep talking it I'll, I'll, I'll look it up.
00;06;59;11 - 00;07;05;17
Chris
Well there's a emergency on ice right now if you're, one of our Canadian listeners.
00;07;05;19 - 00;07;16;06
Daniel
Oh, actually. So the the oldest one that's still on the books is actually, an emergency that's blocking Iranian government property that Carter put in, the place. Oh 17 oh.
00;07;16;06 - 00;07;17;05
Pri
Oh.
00;07;17;08 - 00;07;28;16
Daniel
Freezing Iranian assets as part of, their own hostage crisis. Yeah. And then the second oldest one is a Clinton 1994 for proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. Interesting.
00;07;28;18 - 00;07;36;27
Aaron
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's all pretty modern, right? It's not like there's one from, like, you know, 1860 that's still on the books or like 1940.
00;07;37;00 - 00;07;52;29
Daniel
Let's go. My guess is that they were probably much more unwilling to use them. I think they probably had Congress was probably a lot more quick to, to do its job. Yeah, exactly. I kind of think this is a post Nixon innovation probably is my guess.
00;07;53;06 - 00;07;55;19
Pri
Maybe it changes with Chevron becoming.
00;07;55;22 - 00;07;57;05
Aaron
Yeah. Go to Hamdan.
00;07;57;06 - 00;07;57;26
Daniel
Right.
00;07;57;28 - 00;08;18;02
Aaron
I was I you know I was a little surprised by that. I was I just thought the messiness of like unraveling this may have given the Supreme Court pause, but it did feel like a little bit of overreach to me when it came out. I don't know, it feels they felt healthy. Like I was like, oh, like the Republic has some modicum of healthiness to it.
00;08;18;04 - 00;08;20;02
Aaron
So maybe it's healing itself.
00;08;20;04 - 00;08;30;01
Pri
So I was just seeing someone on Twitter. Right. Tariff refunds equals 2026 fiscal to me. So does it. I didn't actually think about this. But are all the tariffs going to be refunded.
00;08;30;03 - 00;08;45;17
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah that that's part of it I don't I don't think the details of that process are yet known or, but I thought it was more interesting that the Supreme Court didn't care. You know, like that. It didn't seem like that. They acknowledged it in their opinion that there would need to be some sort of refund scheme in it.
00;08;45;19 - 00;08;57;21
Aaron
That wasn't something that blocked them from rendering that decision. So it wasn't it wasn't like, overly shaded by pragmatism. But yeah. Did we just get, like a, stimulus check?
00;08;57;24 - 00;09;00;17
Pri
Yeah. I didn't really consider that, but, yes.
00;09;00;19 - 00;09;03;28
Chris
What, you think you as a consumer are going to get any of this back?
00;09;04;00 - 00;09;04;14
Pri
No.
00;09;04;16 - 00;09;07;06
Aaron
Me as the consumer may.
00;09;07;08 - 00;09;12;04
Daniel
Maybe as a consumer of equity. I think maybe you'll get some back.
00;09;12;09 - 00;09;19;22
Chris
Yeah. There you go. If you're if you're lucky, you'll get, some stock buybacks and, you know, reduce, float on your index funds.
00;09;19;25 - 00;09;20;18
Daniel
Exactly.
00;09;20;20 - 00;09;27;09
Aaron
Have you guys been following how, folks in the UK are flying to Turkey to get cheaper groceries? Has this hit your.
00;09;27;11 - 00;09;30;03
Chris
Hit your groceries? Yeah, really?
00;09;30;06 - 00;09;47;08
Aaron
There's Tescos like the big, UK supermarket in the UK. And also I guess they have outposts in Turkey. And so there's been folks that have been flying to Turkey, like one of the low cost airlines, Easyjet. Yeah. Buying groceries and flying back because it's like significantly cheaper.
00;09;47;10 - 00;10;08;03
Chris
So what's the luggage limit on those flights? There's I don't know, because I think this is a practice in Brazil where there's flights from Brazil to Miami that have no luggage limits specifically for shopping. Like if you need to go buy an iPad, it actually makes more sense to just fly to Miami for a weekend and pick up all your consumer electronics.
00;10;08;05 - 00;10;18;08
Aaron
I don't know, I just feel like the the reason I was raising it, I just feel like the consumer doesn't matter where they live. Like, I guess maybe outside of Turkey, they're just not winning anywhere.
00;10;18;11 - 00;10;22;26
Chris
I mean, Turkish produce is great. I had some amazing food over there.
00;10;23;03 - 00;10;26;29
Pri
Completely sold Turkish delight on the way to like, going on.
00;10;27;01 - 00;10;29;23
Aaron
Oh my god, pray I think Turkish delight. It's nasty.
00;10;29;25 - 00;10;43;18
Pri
I love it. I think it's good. Wait, so speaking of just whatever, government agencies do you want to talk about this whole clod versus Pentagon thing is, has that hit your guys's radar or do you care? Or is it, like, kind of interesting?
00;10;43;19 - 00;10;46;08
Aaron
Oh, it was. I want to know what they use it for. Like.
00;10;46;10 - 00;10;46;22
Pri
They use it.
00;10;46;22 - 00;10;47;03
Aaron
For.
00;10;47;06 - 00;10;49;10
Pri
The Maduro thing, but you know, but like actually.
00;10;49;11 - 00;10;49;20
Daniel
Yeah.
00;10;49;26 - 00;10;53;03
Aaron
How like like how do they use it. Like what were they doing there.
00;10;53;04 - 00;10;54;09
Pri
Like what's the prompts.
00;10;54;11 - 00;11;31;24
Aaron
Yeah. Like what. What was the prompt? I want the a shared chat history of that one. And just to see how Claude kind of handled it, which I just think is kind of wild, but I don't know, I feel like, I feel like the Claude's, like, kind of peaked two weeks ago with, like, open claw. And now there's just, like, a bit of reaction against, Claude, both coming from the government, coming from, like, they're restricting people's use of the API and like, like Dario just getting kind of like, mugged by whoever's he's talking to, whether it's like global leaders or, you know, a podcast host.
00;11;31;24 - 00;11;35;06
Pri
So Turkish.
00;11;35;08 - 00;11;51;27
Daniel
The no hand-holding thing was, I think, pretty bearish. It was bearish for humanity in general that the the two guys working on superintelligence like, hate each other. So much they can't hold hands is I don't know, it's I guess that's why we can't have humans in charge.
00;11;52;00 - 00;12;01;02
Aaron
I think that's where we're going down. Yeah. Then I you know, I think we're just going to be going towards, like algorithmic control at some one way or another.
00;12;01;04 - 00;12;09;24
Chris
I'm a little worried about algorithm the control. And it's the effective altruists who are creating the foundational algorithmic control in these models.
00;12;09;27 - 00;12;14;10
Pri
I mean, Jeremy kind of spooked me on that last weekend. Yeah, last week.
00;12;14;12 - 00;12;32;25
Aaron
He did, but I just don't you think it's just going to you're not you're going to divide it up. You're not going to let one model make a decision. You're going to get like 50 models and run them so that it to de bias and whatever capacity. So I think there'll be a marketplace for like AI algorithm at the top.
00;12;32;27 - 00;12;35;04
Aaron
I'm not as worried about that type of stuff.
00;12;35;06 - 00;12;54;04
Daniel
It does just sort of seem like generally what I've heard lab is given the like temporary mandate of heaven, where everything is aligning for them, tends to fumble it in one way or another. And then, another lab comes in with, with some new model, and there's a big Vive shift about in general where they are in the race.
00;12;54;04 - 00;12;59;04
Daniel
And then this happened with Google, like back in, back in the summer.
00;12;59;07 - 00;13;00;26
Aaron
I think Google's back there.
00;13;00;26 - 00;13;02;08
Daniel
They're definitely yeah.
00;13;02;08 - 00;13;23;02
Aaron
Their new model. It looks really good. I can't wait to get my my hands on it. And I forgot what they called it. But they're kind of a new marketing, tool that that's coming out of their Google's labs looks pretty, pretty good, pretty solid. So I feel like, I feel like the next meta is going to be all about, Google and Gemini.
00;13;23;04 - 00;13;46;25
Daniel
Yeah, I think that and then I also think, Apple is in a very similar place to, to Google was last year in terms of kind of at a bottom and of, of sentiment and, yet to flex on all of their, advantages that they have latently. And I think that's about to happen and it will be, you know, basically just like the juggernauts walking up to to the throne.
00;13;46;25 - 00;13;52;24
Daniel
I mean, we'll see how it's divvied up. But the fact that Apple is using Gemini, I think is pretty notable. Telling.
00;13;52;26 - 00;14;10;10
Aaron
Yeah, yeah, Apple definitely is a dark horse. And I do think like, graphics is going to have its moment at some point this year in the sun. I think you're seeing it kind of emerge. There's like, there's a site that's like pitting like all the models against one another to see if they can make a financial return.
00;14;10;10 - 00;14;11;21
Aaron
And,
00;14;11;24 - 00;14;13;27
Daniel
Yeah, I've seen this benchmark. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00;14;13;27 - 00;14;36;06
Aaron
Is winning. Right. So if that happens, and if they're able to kind of double down on that, I just think that they'll just, you know, go on a couple month run where everybody's just talking about how great grok is. I think that's just going to be the story of, of 2026. Right? Just this back and forth race as, as all of AI models turn into, commoditized product.
00;14;36;13 - 00;14;57;00
Daniel
Right? I mean, the real question is like, I mean, grok lost a lot. I mean, I lost a lot of staff recently and seems to be also in its like mandate of having lost moment again. So it'll be a big test of whether or not the raw scaling and nine, nine, six and whatever or nine, nine, seven that they're doing is like actually going to result in better models.
00;14;57;00 - 00;15;03;26
Daniel
Or if you need more leisure for your for your AI researchers, I think it's going to be TBD a little bit. I don't know.
00;15;03;28 - 00;15;28;10
Aaron
I think grok also it they're going to with all the data center pushback that's starting to happen. It feels like to me at least that cracks a little bit more in control of its own destiny, where via space, they're just going to launch these satellite, these like power center satellites in space. If they can't build them at home, maybe they won't go in, new Jersey, but they'll be floating around the atmosphere.
00;15;28;12 - 00;15;33;26
Aaron
So if it is that race, Daniel, like, I think, I think rocks in a better position than anybody else.
00;15;33;28 - 00;15;48;23
Daniel
I totally agree. I mean, I, I see that possibility is just like the question is if all those advantages actually are more important than, like, having one researcher on a staff that makes some important breakthrough. You know, I guess that's really what's the test they are.
00;15;48;23 - 00;15;54;07
Chris
And you're worried about, Northern Virginia discovering something worse than NIMBYism?
00;15;54;10 - 00;16;14;25
Aaron
I mean, it's I mean, it's my home state and, you know, seeing people blocking data centers in, like, new Jersey, I found a little disconcerting. Not not because of there's not valid concerns. More like just the anti-tax sentiment. It just it just feels, like, a little wrongheaded to me. It feels like very European. It's like the northeast is just turning into Europe.
00;16;14;25 - 00;16;17;18
Aaron
And I think we know where that lands. It's not in a good spot.
00;16;17;23 - 00;16;41;26
Pri
In my, opinion. I think that this entire data center anti-tax stuff hasn't even really gotten going. I bet it becomes a real, midterm election issue. So it probably starts heating up mid to late summer, and I bet it goes into the next election pretty, pretty robustly. I bet we just we're just at the beginning of like, the data center protests and like, I don't know if you guys saw the time cover.
00;16;41;29 - 00;16;46;20
Pri
I in like the states are starting to ban the build up of data centers.
00;16;46;22 - 00;16;50;17
Aaron
The chat people against I hate that cover.
00;16;50;17 - 00;16;53;11
Pri
Yeah. That yeah. That was really for.
00;16;53;15 - 00;16;54;10
Daniel
Not it not I.
00;16;54;10 - 00;16;55;06
Aaron
Mean man.
00;16;55;09 - 00;16;58;13
Daniel
It's out there. They sent their shooters out to make everyone.
00;16;58;14 - 00;17;06;21
Pri
They moved around. Yeah, but I kind of feel like that's going to really take off. Do you guys. But why I don't know.
00;17;06;21 - 00;17;10;28
Aaron
Why do you think that's going to take off? Yeah. I mean I don't disagree with you, but I don't I think.
00;17;10;28 - 00;17;15;01
Pri
It's like going to be a huge platform for the Democratic Party.
00;17;15;03 - 00;17;18;29
Aaron
Absolutely. But why like where is it because of jobs?
00;17;19;04 - 00;17;23;02
Pri
I mean, I mean, I can outline why it's not that that outline it.
00;17;23;04 - 00;17;24;13
Chris
Quality of life.
00;17;24;15 - 00;17;28;19
Aaron
New Jersey's a dump. Like there's so many warehouses, like they can throw those things anywhere.
00;17;28;22 - 00;17;59;04
Chris
Well, apparently they're not throwing them anywhere, though. That that seems to be the issue. And so it's a little strange in that, you know, like people's, I guess, own good governance attentions are now being used against them. Right? Like, if you wanted this big, green, leafy suburb, you made it very hard to build subdivisions, right? Like you crafted, this, this whole zoning regime with an eye towards, like, preventing Toll Brothers from, like, ruining your own property value.
00;17;59;07 - 00;18;39;18
Chris
And then, you know, all of a sudden, what you actually did was just set the table for Toll Brothers to turn around, and, you know, so 500 acres off to, you know, just massive data centers. It's it's an interesting unintended consequence. But then I think the other part of this is the fact that you can start looking at like, the Toll Brothers of the world as, like, what the hell is like Sam Altman decides he's going to merge into Toll Brothers, you know, like, oh, wild with that V, but, you know, like the Democrats did nothing, you know, since the global financial crisis to discourage the death of private homeownership, right.
00;18;39;18 - 00;18;53;24
Chris
They used every single crisis they could to be like, oh, you know what? Let's a Wall Street buy up every house in America. And now you've created this honeypot where it's far easier, for these massive data centers to roll in.
00;18;53;27 - 00;18;58;26
Pri
And, you know, it's kind of interesting about the data center thing is, is pretty much bipartisan. It's like.
00;18;58;26 - 00;19;07;18
Aaron
Yeah, that that is interesting. But like, is it just because they're like an easy target? I mean, is is it that annoying to have them in your backyard? I mean, maybe.
00;19;07;18 - 00;19;15;04
Pri
I think it's that electricity cost and it's not really adding any jobs. Like people are worried it's going to like increase. You know, electricity and other.
00;19;15;04 - 00;19;17;27
Aaron
But is that real or is that just like a talking.
00;19;17;27 - 00;19;20;22
Pri
Point, I think I don't know if it's real, but that is it is.
00;19;20;24 - 00;19;33;16
Daniel
It is partially real. It's at least partially real for sure. Clearly. And it has already and the job losses haven't really started. They seem likely to pick up, in the next year or two.
00;19;33;23 - 00;19;39;27
Aaron
Yeah, but like what? There's still no evidence that there's, like widespread job loss from. Yeah.
00;19;39;29 - 00;19;40;26
Pri
That's fair.
00;19;40;29 - 00;20;02;03
Aaron
It just it feels like I mean, you're just doing more work than ever using I, I still it still feels like kind of, like talking points and not actual like, things on the ground. I get, I get people are worried, things are moving quickly. Maybe this is just the foil for it, but it just I don't know, it just feels kind of shortsighted.
00;20;02;05 - 00;20;05;14
Aaron
It feels like this is why it feels European to me. It just kind of like.
00;20;05;19 - 00;20;06;29
Pri
It is cope. Yeah.
00;20;07;02 - 00;20;30;04
Daniel
It just think it's shortsighted. Except for, like, it's clear. It's clear that the public is very, very against this stuff. At least a lot of them are in the polls and the Democrats are just gonna they're, they're not really like long term thinkers. And in general, the electoral system doesn't really incentivize for long term thinking. It's all about just getting over the next line.
00;20;30;07 - 00;20;53;03
Daniel
And this is a like the Trump for I mean I think this is one of the better things he's done. Has fully aligned himself with all the AI leaders and and made himself the AI and crypto guy and so it's just it's just pure politicking. Like I mean, I don't think that's even very European, honestly. That's like pretty American at least, contemporary American.
00;20;53;05 - 00;21;14;01
Daniel
It's just like there's not really. And this is the same stuff with all the Epstein. It's like, it's not really they're not there. It's it's very in the short term, it's very politically expedient to talk about, data centers stealing everybody's jobs and, you know, the cannibal pedo elite for the Democrats. And so they're going to do it even if it's going to bite them in the ass long term.
00;21;14;03 - 00;21;15;03
Daniel
It seems pretty clear.
00;21;15;06 - 00;21;27;27
Aaron
I mean, they're going to build the data centers one way or another. So they're not I don't know, it just feels like and, it feels DSL. I mean, that's to me is what is. Well, yeah it is. Yeah, that's what it is.
00;21;27;27 - 00;21;47;11
Daniel
And it's also like you can expect that if to the extent that there is foreign influence in our domestic politics, you can bet that China and probably other countries, but definitely China is going to be fanning the flames of anti AI sentiment as much as they can. And also yeah, I love this listener. Yeah.
00;21;47;11 - 00;21;56;14
Aaron
This makes me feel like a lot of this stuff is just it's just another it's like the next chapter in that increasingly like paid activist class.
00;21;56;16 - 00;22;21;01
Daniel
I mean it's definitely an info war that there's an aspect of info war to it right now. But if we believe in what they're saying, the job losses or at least the job transformations and they're coming. So this is just getting ahead of it a little bit. Yeah. I mean, it's already hiring. It's I don't know if it's impacted it necessarily, but hiring is down.
00;22;21;01 - 00;22;28;08
Daniel
And whether or not that's due to AI or not or due to more, you know, other macro conditions, it's a very convenient scapegoat.
00;22;28;09 - 00;22;29;04
Pri
Scapegoat. Yeah.
00;22;29;06 - 00;22;29;24
Aaron
Yeah.
00;22;29;26 - 00;22;52;13
Pri
I mean, the interesting thing, I was just looking it up the, the state level moratorium bills that have bills to pause, data center construction in New York, Virginia, Georgia, Oklahoma, Vermont, Maryland, Maryland, Pennsylvania's prepping for this. Florida governor has publicly opposed data center expansion. You know, large states with a decent amount of people in growth and GDP in each of these states.
00;22;52;13 - 00;22;58;01
Aaron
So, well, they're all pretty much blue states, right? Leaning blue, blue and.
00;22;58;03 - 00;23;00;03
Chris
Green. All that blue. But
00;23;00;06 - 00;23;00;16
Pri
Yeah.
00;23;00;19 - 00;23;01;10
Aaron
Yeah that's true.
00;23;01;11 - 00;23;03;08
Pri
I it's a pretty bipartisan issue actually.
00;23;03;12 - 00;23;22;09
Chris
This is also one of these things where local governments, you know, do have control over their own zoning, just zoning regulations like you can you can sort this out. And this really might just be a matter of like, especially in a place like Northern Virginia where, you know, they just need to play catch up and shuffle this stuff around.
00;23;22;09 - 00;23;47;06
Chris
It's not like we, you know, it's not like this is a binary problem. Like you can find plenty of places to stick data centers, you know, it's I think the bigger issue is like, I mean, especially in Virginia is like us East one sits down there. And so everyone in their mom wants to be, you know, within a 20 square mile radius of, that corridor, just, cut down your latency, your interconnects.
00;23;47;06 - 00;24;08;10
Chris
And I imagine, you know, there's a decent amount of, like, resourcing there. I mean, you know, Virginia's a state where, like, if people keep, you know, like two exotic yaks on there, like ten acres. So they can pretend they're a farmer and get tax breaks, you know, like, people create these own messes. They can work their way out of these messes as well.
00;24;08;12 - 00;24;27;22
Chris
But there is always that, you know, these are complex systems. So there's always these time lags. And one day you look up and yeah, like, you know what you thought was your, you know, leafy little exurban, you know, suddenly is, you know, a massive node in an emergent sky that.
00;24;27;25 - 00;24;41;15
Pri
41 is probably right in that, like it's going to be difficult to it's probably going to be harder to, like, build out data centers at scale, in the US. And it is probably like bring that out in the space, honestly, which is what he's been talking about.
00;24;41;17 - 00;24;54;10
Chris
Look, when when Elon has data centers and stays great. So this is one of those things where I'm just going to, you know what? If someone can pull this off, more power to them. I got no dog in that fight. Yeah.
00;24;54;12 - 00;25;02;04
Pri
Yeah, for. I just think it's more interesting thing about, like, what the aftermath of that is going to be and, and how that affects politics, I think because I think, I mean.
00;25;02;06 - 00;25;27;02
Aaron
What do you think's going to happen? Like, to me, I'm like much more of a fatalist related to this. This stuff is, way too efficient. It's going to get built one way or another. There's too much geographic arbitrage that you can do. Somebody is going to take that as a way to, you know, stimulate, some sort of sort of growth, even if it's short term, if the energy costs are going to peak over the next decade, feels pretty easy.
00;25;27;02 - 00;25;30;27
Aaron
Instead of banning it just to like, you know, offset that in some sort of way.
00;25;30;29 - 00;25;36;29
Chris
So, I mean, we could going to happen, you know, the orange man doesn't like solar power.
00;25;37;01 - 00;25;57;24
Pri
So yeah, he's got a shift on that. The one thing, the one thing that I, think is it just came to my mind. But I think it could be interesting just because, like, you know, we talked a lot about San Francisco past couple weeks, and I was just reading. I just started reading this, like, Sam, Chris Harper's article, a similar sentiment from that article that I felt when I was in, San Francisco.
00;25;58;01 - 00;26;17;24
Pri
But, I what do you see? Like the k-shaped economy hit like k-shaped cities. So, like, you have some accelerant cities and so like these, like future cities that have decided to adopt the technology becomes way of life. Like in San Francisco. There's no questions about autonomous vehicles right now or, using AI. Like it's pretty much accepted.
00;26;17;24 - 00;26;38;11
Pri
Well accepted. But then, you know, in the northeast, even New York, you just feel like an apathy towards technology. Like I feel it amongst my non tech circles here. And I wonder if, you know, similar to what people say about the K-shaped economy, you just start seeing city like in a more harsh reality, like cities in decline and then cities on a different growth trajectory.
00;26;38;13 - 00;26;39;24
Pri
I don't know, just a thought.
00;26;39;27 - 00;26;52;14
Chris
Well, I mean, the fastest growing place in the country right now is a 30 mile stretch north of Dallas. Are you going to be talking about like, Denton is the new Austin? And I mean, maybe does that do anything for you?
00;26;52;16 - 00;27;10;01
Pri
Well, that's what I was starting to think about network space. And then I was like, well, maybe because I was like, oh, maybe, you know, maybe network states is like what emerges from all this? But then I started thinking about like, okay, maybe it just becomes like the rise of certain cities and then the decline of others in a more rapid, rapid way like.
00;27;10;03 - 00;27;36;16
Daniel
That seems to be happening for sure. Like just because, capital or at least like elite human capital is, is very mobile these days and we see the like rise and fall of various startup hub cities from year to year. I mean, I thought that that chart of, startup formations, and every city is substantially down except for San Francisco and Austin.
00;27;36;16 - 00;27;37;21
Daniel
No, New York was down to.
00;27;37;21 - 00;27;39;06
Aaron
I think New York was down. Interesting.
00;27;39;07 - 00;27;49;08
Daniel
New York was down, LA was down like 48% compared to 22, but everything else was down 2,030%. New York substantially, Austin up a lot as well.
00;27;49;08 - 00;27;52;04
Aaron
And and what's New York there? What about Miami?
00;27;52;06 - 00;27;55;01
Daniel
New York and Miami were both down. Interesting. Yeah.
00;27;55;03 - 00;27;59;23
Chris
Sorry. Yeah. You don't have ad tech to, help you for ten. New York's with,
00;27;59;26 - 00;28;07;27
Aaron
You know, New York. I mean, it feels like it just feels. Who's saying this? Something's off with New York. Something's off with New York.
00;28;07;28 - 00;28;11;18
Daniel
Yeah, it is definitely losing some primacy, is what I would say.
00;28;11;21 - 00;28;17;10
Aaron
Yeah. Just doesn't feel like. It feels like it's just making bad decisions. But hopefully you kind of.
00;28;17;13 - 00;28;38;18
Daniel
You could kind of make the make the case that New York is sort of the microcosm of America, where it's like, okay, well, it's still New York City. Its actual position hasn't changed that much, but sentiment surely has. And there are is less dominance than there was before, like less overwhelming dominance culturally and financially. And, that seems cool.
00;28;38;18 - 00;29;02;02
Daniel
Yeah. Just like in general, the financial sector is, clearly has peaked. The media sector definitely peaked. Our culture, whatever else there is there, you know, it's just not it's not having it's not having a moment. I mean, LA feels L.A feels a lot like Detroit. I gotta say, being here, sentiment was very similar. Just lives in terms of, like, a post-industrial.
00;29;02;04 - 00;29;02;11
Daniel
I think.
00;29;02;11 - 00;29;29;06
Aaron
It's more ideas to like, you know, like New York, putting aside even the industries, it was more like a cradle for new, new ideas that ultimately won. And it just feels like it's, it's more like a graveyard for recycled ideas that haven't worked in the past. Like, it's it doesn't feel like on the edge even, you know, from an intellectual vantage point, like it would have in the 80s or 90s and even the 2000.
00;29;29;09 - 00;29;39;17
Chris
Yeah. Well, like, I think some of that just might be that, you know, we had this, for you, what's the term like the overweight, overeducated professional class, I can't remember.
00;29;39;17 - 00;29;43;25
Pri
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. The, elite overproduction.
00;29;43;28 - 00;30;14;22
Chris
Yeah. There you go. Like, I think New York is probably captured by that group of people right now. You know, like 50 year olds had a master's degree, you know, made, you know, 300 K doing, you know, I don't know, some sort of job whose moment is past, right. Like, I do think a lot of New York or at least the, you know, the, the stable power base within New York is belongs to that group.
00;30;14;27 - 00;30;34;05
Chris
You know, like there's certain neighborhoods I think you can just look at and say, this was a group of people whose moment in the sun has come and gone. And like I that that whole like, we're turning into Europe live like, I could point in certain places if, you know, like, well, let's just take an easy one, like Park Slope, right.
00;30;34;05 - 00;30;39;24
Chris
Like, you know, when was peak Park Slope? I'm certainly not 20, 25 now.
00;30;39;25 - 00;30;56;13
Aaron
It's probably, you know, 2015 to middle of Covid 2023. It feels like it's on the other side of that. But it definitely was like, cultural epicenter for a good, you know, half a decade to a decade.
00;30;56;15 - 00;31;21;19
Chris
Like asset value, inflation and ossification go hand in hand. Right? It's like the innovator's dilemma of, society. And I just think that, like, that's a big problem for New York right now is anyone who's young and hungry like this isn't a good environment for them to come up in. It's just too expensive. It's too limiting. Your if you fail, right.
00;31;21;19 - 00;31;27;12
Chris
Like the risks of failure too great. Does the same thing they say about why art and art and culture in New York is died.
00;31;27;16 - 00;31;50;25
Daniel
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a big part of it. I mean, it's, it's that but it's also like art. I mean, yeah, art has died more generally in terms of like a source of future ideas. It's just like that is increasingly dominated by tech for obvious reasons. And it's that's why like, yeah, you know, the Nick land mold bug debate is happening in San Francisco.
00;31;51;01 - 00;32;06;08
Daniel
The peptide wave is happening in San Francisco. All the I mean, the the other than the clavicle, you know, fashion week moment, which is clearly sort of, you know, imported Californian culture in a lot of ways. That's the only thing I heard. Whoa, whoa. In fashion.
00;32;06;11 - 00;32;12;26
Aaron
Daniel. Daniel. Yeah. Clav is is from the great state of new Jersey. That is new Jersey culture one.
00;32;12;26 - 00;32;15;17
Daniel
Hi. Yeah. You're right. All the way through, I.
00;32;15;17 - 00;32;17;03
Pri
Don't know, was pretty New York, actually.
00;32;17;09 - 00;32;19;20
Aaron
No, no, no, no, this is.
00;32;19;22 - 00;32;26;20
Pri
Nobody's. No. But Daniel is right that the looks fascinating is, like, very, like longevity Brian Johnson stuff. No.
00;32;26;22 - 00;32;28;00
Aaron
It's not Brian Little Nelson.
00;32;28;04 - 00;32;29;19
Pri
This is it, is it is it?
00;32;29;21 - 00;32;31;10
Daniel
It's like live streamers.
00;32;31;10 - 00;32;37;00
Chris
This is this is Jersey Shore Road world's route. This is MTV for Zoomers.
00;32;37;02 - 00;32;59;15
Aaron
Exactly like it took Brian Johnson. And then Chad Sir certifies that or however we want to describe that, Chris, because that is what it is. And you feel it like that guy doesn't care. Like there's no there's no like intellectual ism that's undergirding that. It's just what it is. Right. And that I think is just uniquely new Jersey.
00;32;59;17 - 00;33;01;26
Aaron
He's just livin on a prayer. And it's I think.
00;33;01;26 - 00;33;24;02
Daniel
I think, kick streaming or whatever. Yeah. The, the, the live real life streamers is that feels I actually don't even, I don't know what that feels like. It feels like there's truly decentralized American culture like that is that's the stuff that happens in Arizona and Utah and Tennessee. You know, I don't know, it's not Jersey.
00;33;24;05 - 00;33;27;15
Pri
So there's no location that like owns owns that I feel like.
00;33;27;22 - 00;33;28;16
Aaron
Chris I yeah you do.
00;33;28;18 - 00;33;35;05
Chris
You can draw a straight line from like ASU frat leader. You know back in history to I don't know macho man Randy Savage.
00;33;35;08 - 00;33;37;02
Daniel
Yeah for sure. Yeah yeah yeah definitely.
00;33;37;04 - 00;33;47;01
Aaron
Chris, you should, give yourself a big pat on the back and do a victory lap because you nailed that Chad. Surrealism call. I feel like that is becoming the the dominant meta.
00;33;47;04 - 00;34;02;29
Chris
Look, if we can, if we can get Zizek, more into the culture, why not, we can get camo even in dumbed down form with, you know, terrible labels like retard maxing on it. I mean, people need strategies to cope.
00;34;03;02 - 00;34;05;01
Aaron
Yeah, I like your label better, but.
00;34;05;07 - 00;34;26;27
Chris
Yeah, well, I try. It's not going to catch on, you know, but I do I do believe strongly that like, the only, the only real power you have right now is withholding. You know, it. It's just not feeding, these highly optimized machines. And so like, try holding back, try not putting inputs into something that's optimized, like, you know, to fire on your rage.
00;34;27;04 - 00;34;40;09
Aaron
I think it's deeper than that. I think that, you know, we really are like kind of engaged in like an info war where there's just like manufactured confusion. Like that's the that's the point. Like when said, I.
00;34;40;09 - 00;34;55;00
Pri
Would agree with that. I'm like in the middle of the info war, the Epstein stuff. And I truly feel like I can't get a sense of what's happening, but that's extremely. But then I keep spending more time there, like to try to understand the truth, like I was up till 130 reading stuff.
00;34;55;02 - 00;35;17;22
Aaron
There is no truth. It's like it's no, I think we have this mindset that it's all like persuasion works. And I think, I think it's all intended to cause intentional confusion. You know, this is something I don't know if you guys have ever gone down this rabbit hole, but did you guys ever read that Rand Corporation Firehose of Falsehood analysis?
00;35;17;25 - 00;35;39;23
Aaron
It's a it's a great one. Maybe we could add it to the show notes, but it pretty much just talks about how having a high volume and multi-channel distribution of rapid, continuous and repetitive output that has no commitment to objective reality. And just like a great way to like maintain control. And I think that that is just happening across the board and that's why it feels so chaotic.
00;35;39;25 - 00;35;42;14
Aaron
I just think it's been like deployed in mass.
00;35;42;16 - 00;35;57;03
Chris
Yeah. It's also a great fog if you're actually having, an elite power battle, which seems to be going on, you know, in full force right now, if exactly, you know, like keep everyone else distracted from the fact that, you know, you're trying to divvy up the future. Yeah.
00;35;57;03 - 00;36;18;07
Aaron
And I think and then if you're an elite with, like, better information in that fog of war, you just win. Right? And I think that that's kind of what's happening like across the board. I think that's happening from at least U.S political leaders. And I think it's happening from, you know, folks in charge of technology platforms. I think I think that that's what's that's what's happening.
00;36;18;07 - 00;36;37;28
Aaron
And I think that's why you're just going to you're getting this dump of all this information that people want, because it just feeds into that confusion. Right? Like they're going to release things about extraterrestrial lives that that probably have no answer to them. It probably goes in 50 different directions. And then everybody just walks away more confused. And eventually, like, people will get exasperated.
00;36;37;28 - 00;36;49;24
Aaron
I feel like we're in the middle of that. And then they'll just like, turn to to, the new leaders to to kind of, resolve that confusion. I just think that's what's happening across the board.
00;36;49;27 - 00;36;58;11
Pri
How many years of this do I have to wait? So you're on the other side of it. You've been in this transition period for quite a long time. It feels like at least two years.
00;36;58;13 - 00;37;00;16
Aaron
I think maybe a couple more years. Yeah.
00;37;00;18 - 00;37;14;11
Chris
These things can go on for decades, guys. You know, you gotta gotta think a little more historically bigger here. This is and I know we're all used to like, compressed, you know, news cycles and yada yada yada, but like, this shit can drag on forever.
00;37;14;13 - 00;37;15;15
Pri
Yeah, but dude, I.
00;37;15;16 - 00;37;16;07
Aaron
Don't think it will.
00;37;16;07 - 00;37;19;14
Pri
I think people for 911, I'm like so tired.
00;37;19;16 - 00;37;42;09
Aaron
Yeah I think yeah, yeah. You guys are, are weary. I actually I was thinking about this. I think I will actually weirdly create this more and then solve it where, you know, you saw like Nikita Bear from Twitter mentioning this, but a week or so ago where he just like in the next couple of months, like, oh, social media would just be slop, which I think it's true.
00;37;42;11 - 00;38;06;14
Aaron
Some of it will be quite good, which I think folks here may, agree with. But then I think what you're going to just use is mediate all of that via like an AI system, and it will bring back like coherence and sense making and like that is like how you kind of combat combat this like era of, of like intentional confusion and obfuscation.
00;38;06;20 - 00;38;17;26
Aaron
So, I kind of feel like that's going to be the beats on this one. I don't know how much longer it's going to go. Chris. I think the population really would would revolt if it lasted more than a couple more years.
00;38;17;28 - 00;38;40;13
Chris
You're ever the optimist. I, I will take the position that you even if AI solves the sophistication of social media by then, it's going to be the equivalent of, you know, being a listener, of, like, shock jocks and talk radio. You know, TikTok's a new fan. You're you're John from Maspeth, you know, calling in to complain about cash from.
00;38;40;15 - 00;38;48;20
Aaron
The, just so you know, so you don't get lost in your Infowars. Like, knowing that that is happening is like one of the best defenses to it. So.
00;38;48;22 - 00;39;08;22
Pri
Like, yeah, like, why should I spend more time here? But it is fascinating. Like the I've seen stuff is like truly like I don't know if I'll ever I mean, I'm not going to get to the bottom of it, but it is really interesting to see people operate at that level. I don't know, I guess nothing super surprising, but it is interesting to see what is shared tree.
00;39;08;25 - 00;39;21;03
Chris
What happens if you actually do get to the bottom of it? Let's just imagine a world where you sort this out. How paralyzing. Or like, what will that do to you? Like say you actually figure this out tree? How does that you.
00;39;21;03 - 00;39;42;16
Pri
Know, they're like, you know, the you know, the part. No, the part that I'm really struggling with is, and this is more just because I'm like, pretty chronically online, like, I think you guys are too. But the I've seen relationship with fortune, the rise of the pull chat and then just lean possibly being like a huge Reddit mod and probably one of the biggest Reddit mods ever.
00;39;42;18 - 00;40;19;05
Pri
And like influencing politics and other ideology through her power on Reddit, like the internet side. I mean, I always like QAnon. Could have been like a CIA run thing to see how you could, like, potentially manipulate people online in mass. And when I think about, like, the Epstein role on the internet, like that stuff for some reason really shakes me to my core because it makes me feel like everything on the internet is just like an, you know, I take a lot of my I think I spent so much time on the internet, like a lot of my, like, beliefs and like things that I learn.
00;40;19;05 - 00;40;47;05
Pri
And I think I'm pretty good at parsing out, you know, what obviously is fake and what's real. But like seeing just like the, I don't know, Infowars misinformation, disinformation, even from at that scale, I'm like, holy shit. Like I should maybe log off more. And also is my entire belief system. Much of what is gathered from like how I absorb information online could just be shattered.
00;40;47;05 - 00;40;57;17
Pri
I don't know that. And I, I've, like looked up a lot of like the pull and fortune and then like their influence there. I can't get a good answer on that about how much they've done their,
00;40;57;19 - 00;41;24;04
Daniel
I'm suspicious. I mean, I don't think I, I suspicious of them of first of all, I don't think the Reddit mod thing has ever been definitively proven. And even if it had, yeah, it hasn't. And even if it was true, it's like it's a I don't think that account was like I mean, it was mostly like just, harvesting stars or whatever, like whatever that's called that karma karma farming or whatever on Reddit.
00;41;24;04 - 00;41;26;18
Daniel
I don't think it was really manipulating.
00;41;26;21 - 00;41;29;25
Pri
That was posting a lot. And it was like the number one Reddit mod on the whole.
00;41;29;25 - 00;41;49;22
Daniel
Pot for a lot of news and stuff. Yeah, sure. And the the poll, the timing is weird and it's it's very awesome. But at the same time, it's like we know there's intelligence agencies on these sites. That's not like a revelation. At least it isn't. No, I don't think it would be. It's so like, okay, well it's some of those agents.
00;41;49;22 - 00;41;50;02
Daniel
Yeah.
00;41;50;02 - 00;41;53;20
Pri
What do these private citizens doing now? Like, that's fucking weird.
00;41;53;23 - 00;42;09;28
Aaron
There's just certain things that have no answer at this point. Yeah. And that's what this all is. And you're just going to keep on getting more disclosures of things that just have no answers, like there's just certain things that you can't make heads or tails of it. And that's what is happening here.
00;42;09;28 - 00;42;29;24
Daniel
That is the problem is like you do a full disclosure and you don't know. You'll never know what is not disclosed. And so it's a sort of epistemological trap that I think, yeah, a lot of people are going to fall into and we're going to see what happens with the alien files. But my guess is, is it's going to be a similar thing where they're disappointing and.
00;42;29;26 - 00;42;30;18
Aaron
Yeah, exactly.
00;42;30;18 - 00;42;34;23
Daniel
I mean, it doesn't it doesn't, dissuade any of the believers. And yeah.
00;42;34;23 - 00;42;49;15
Aaron
Like Eric Weinstein pretty much said the same thing. It's like you're people are going to see that thinking that there's some sort of like answers or truth, and it's just more noise. And that's the point. Just to like, make it so noisy that it's just a fog of war.
00;42;49;17 - 00;42;50;12
Daniel
I mean, that's.
00;42;50;14 - 00;42;58;23
Pri
The underlying thing is there's like bits of information that are high quality. That's the part that's irritating is like you spend the time and there are like actually really interesting tidbits through it.
00;42;58;23 - 00;43;12;26
Aaron
But you're watching like a 1980s TV station with, you know, all that, like static running through it, and you think you're seeing a picture underneath it, but it's just all static, like there is no signal. It's just all noise.
00;43;12;29 - 00;43;13;20
Daniel
I mean, no.
00;43;13;20 - 00;43;14;25
Pri
I think there is some signal in there.
00;43;14;28 - 00;43;37;06
Daniel
There's some signal. I think it's not something it's like, at least in the absence, if we're talking about that specifically, like I did kind of call it wasn't it was you know, Prince Andrew got arrested for leaking like financial secrets. And that was always what I maintained was like the one smoking gun that I found when I was looking through those files was the finance minister leaking the EU bailout?
00;43;37;09 - 00;44;01;06
Daniel
Details to Epstein the night before they were public. And that's like, okay, that's a clear cut crime. That's prosecutable. Okay. Go ahead. At the same time, it's not a huge crime, and it's the type of crime that no one would bat an eye at if it weren't for this whole red herring of, of the like, you know, pedo cannibal, ring that, so.
00;44;01;12 - 00;44;20;03
Daniel
So I'm a little. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. It's there is some tidbits in there for sure that are interesting and but it's, it's I don't know, you can know is it being deliberately the waters are being muddied to make it about all this fake stuff. And so we don't look at the real stuff? Yeah, that's kind of probably true.
00;44;20;03 - 00;44;42;11
Daniel
And it's just like all the financial things that are, real are not no one's interest. You know, it's not it's not alluring. It's not, lurid sex crimes. Obviously, that's what's compelling it about the case for most people, whether they admit it or not. So I don't I don't know. And yeah, the alien stuff, I mean, it feels related.
00;44;42;14 - 00;45;10;05
Daniel
I do think there is, you know, if I have any if I'm going to do the conspiracy theory, the part of the Epstein story that has not been uncovered very much is his the New Mexico ranch. And his relationship evolved with physics and stuff. And the fact that there's the disclosure happening. And there was another there was another physicist who got, shot on his doorstep today, some UFC professor, probably unrelated, but in general, the fact that that happened.
00;45;10;08 - 00;45;30;23
Daniel
Yeah. What's up with that? All kind of weird, right? Definitely all kind of weird. And the Weinsteins are are I mean, I think they're kind of more guilty than many in terms of muddying the waters with bullshit recently, but it's up very up their alley in terms of suppressed science or something. I don't know. So maybe there's something there.
00;45;30;26 - 00;45;33;24
Daniel
So. Fine. Locked. Science.
00;45;33;27 - 00;45;43;03
Aaron
I'm going to lean back on Chad ism. I think it's a much better strategy right now. So thanks for that wise, wisdom here, Chris. And area watch.
00;45;43;03 - 00;45;59;16
Chris
No problem there. And, like, you guys are, like, so deep down a rabbit hole, like, I'm, I'm quiet right now because we're in the third period of Finland, Canada. I'm watching my beloved Finns, attempt to be a giant killer here and ruin our neighbor to the north.
00;45;59;18 - 00;46;07;28
Aaron
Oh, yeah? Well, another, I guess just to pivot a little bit, looks like the clarity is going to pass. It seems like the,
00;46;08;00 - 00;46;10;01
Pri
The friction markets are the.
00;46;10;01 - 00;46;14;16
Aaron
Cosplay between the crypto industry and the banking industry is it's finally over.
00;46;14;23 - 00;46;24;18
Chris
Let's do a little conspiracy theorizing here. You've mentioned, you know, in conversations here and there, you think meme coins are the sacrificial lamb.
00;46;24;21 - 00;46;46;22
Aaron
I just think, look, I think, you know, for a variety of reasons, we want to upgrade the financial system, right? One is just like common sense. In 50 years we're not going to have paper based systems. Two is like we need something that better can handle, modern information threats like cybersecurity threats that, that financial institutions face.
00;46;46;22 - 00;47;08;23
Aaron
Three is we want, you know, globally stitched 24, seven markets. You know, whatever you think about crypto and blockchains, they offer that like in spades. And there's now a business model that circle tether a whole bunch of other folks have figured out on how to make money. You were seeing digital assets wrapped in traditional assets like ETFs, and people are making tons of money related to it.
00;47;08;23 - 00;47;32;07
Aaron
So, like I've heard, people bring their hands, whether they're lawyers, people in the industry, etc., about whether or not this would pass. To me, it just seemed like it probably would, just because there's a lot of money to be made and and like the end point is kind of inevitable. I've been of the position like I didn't think it made a difference if it was the Trump administration or some other administration that this would just get through, just based on that pragmatism.
00;47;32;09 - 00;47;53;13
Aaron
You know, the Valley wants it, Wall Street wants it. Like usually when that those two worlds, they converge like the answer is yes. And I think the US knows like if they can be a leader on networked global digital technology, like the internet like that will lead to a whole host of new businesses and like a whole host of benefits for at least a generation or so to come.
00;47;53;15 - 00;48;12;01
Aaron
So I just assume that this would all go through. And it was just like posturing and positioning about where where the the lines are kind of drawn. And I think they're finally through that negotiation process. I don't know exactly where it lands, but it's not surprising, like some yield will be able to be passed back if the reports are accurate.
00;48;12;04 - 00;48;31;09
Aaron
My sense is, is that in that final version of the bill, some of the more freewheeling ERC 20 slash meme coin stuff may get left on the, left outside of the bill, which would put their, their future in, you know, in some sort of question or peril if, if you agree with me on that and it is an assumption could be wrong.
00;48;31;09 - 00;48;53;18
Aaron
But like a lot of the moves from Coinbase around repositioning base makes a lot of sense. Like they maybe they already know that or feel that that's going to be the case. So they're trying to get ahead of it. I do think that the Democrats want to go after some of the crypto stuff with the current administration, and there's lots of meme coin bits that they could chew to their teeth into if they're given authority to do that.
00;48;53;21 - 00;49;16;12
Aaron
You know, maybe that comes out of it. Yeah. I, you know, to actually, Chris, the one thing that really jumped out to me was that whole kind of minor story about crypto with Open Claw, where he said he was pretty much that close to deleting the project because of all the crypto traders. Like, it made me think, like, maybe we do need a bit tighter controls on who can release a token to prevent that type of like, race to the bottom.
00;49;16;16 - 00;49;30;10
Aaron
But I think what we're seeing there, that's kind of my read on the whole thing. I think it's, you know, 90% ish on on Poly Market. Maybe there's a curveball at the end, but, I'd be surprised personally. But doesn't doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
00;49;30;12 - 00;50;10;25
Chris
Yeah. I mean, I just take a view that something has to be given as a concession. And meme coin seemed to have the most bang for the buck in that no one at the lobbying table, no one is part of these negotiations, has successful business lines running off of meme coins. And so it just seems like it's very convenient fodder to, you know, toss into the woodchipper and a base is moving, which I think at surprising speed, you know, airdromes or, I mean, you know, there projects in their ecosystems that are just out the window on very short notice.
00;50;10;25 - 00;50;33;24
Chris
And look, a lot of that just rationally makes sense. Like if you had your business model, based on the idea that all you had to do was sit downstream of Coinbase's, distribution and provide services, and now Coinbase isn't going to do that job, and there is no retail that's going to run on those rails. Right. It makes sense ahead for the hills.
00;50;33;24 - 00;50;53;10
Chris
But you know, it's also if, you know, you have a cozy relationship with the mothership, it wouldn't be surprising, you know, if they were given heads up ahead of time. I mean, that's what you do with, you know, if you have channel partners, right? Like you, you certainly signal stuff to them to that, you know, you can just have good, good business relationships.
00;50;53;10 - 00;51;11;15
Chris
And so these guys may have known about it for a few weeks or, or whatnot, but, it definitely seems like, you know, somewhere in December, Brian Armstrong took a look over at what was going on in that L2 and just was like, you know what? None of this is, is good for us. Let's get the hell out of here as fast as we can.
00;51;11;18 - 00;51;31;17
Aaron
Yeah. I mean, I don't know if there will be something like formally traded related to meme coins. It could just be silent on that point. And then, you know, maybe there is a change administration and then they reinterpret. It's related to it. So I don't know exactly what it looks like, but I just think there was lots of folks that were really advocating for really robust Erc20, D5 markets.
00;51;31;17 - 00;51;53;00
Aaron
I think it's always been the hardest part of the bill. I imagine people wanted to maybe figure out something related to that, and maybe they just haven't reached consensus on that point. And as an ancillary impact, they may just be more silent there, which is opens up like this, this attack vector. Weirdly, though, I do think it's pretty good for NFTs, like as a second order effect.
00;51;53;02 - 00;52;12;23
Aaron
If if like there's less clarity around DeFi, I think there's probably going to be, in the long run, more clarity around, you know, art, media, tokenized assets. I think they have a pretty strong First Amendment protection around, like, creative expression and are pretty clearly probably not considered securities. I think you get you get to these like absurd results.
00;52;12;23 - 00;52;31;21
Aaron
We're like the SEC would be determining what is and is not art, or media, which is just a really tricky area to be in. So maybe there's like a knock on benefit for for NFTs, but I think it's good. It's long overdue. I hope we get some reasonable rules in place so people can, turn this industry into a race to the top.
00;52;31;21 - 00;52;35;26
Aaron
Not like the race to the bottom, which it's felt like for the, the past couple of years.
00;52;35;28 - 00;52;51;18
Pri
I'm excited. I do think there's going to be a whole, like, New world around crypto once. I mean, maybe I've been putting a lot of weight into the Clarity Act, but it does feel like it could be teed up and primed for like a new wave of innovation around crypto. And like.
00;52;51;18 - 00;52;53;20
Aaron
You're starting to see it. Yeah. I mean, I think the.
00;52;53;20 - 00;52;55;03
Pri
I just like the engines on chain.
00;52;55;11 - 00;53;28;13
Aaron
The agent stuff's real. Like Agent Discovery is a real thing. Having a neutral layer for that going to be useful. Embodied AI robotics is real. Like having secure robots is real. Blockchains are really useful for that too. So, you know, and I, I also think the, you know, the, the, apocalypse that we're about to walk into, which I personally think is going to have a lot of good stuff in it, it's going to be a lot for people to, to handle, and they're going to want like private groups and, you know, gated communities and like more human identification that I do think, like NFTs.
00;53;28;13 - 00;53;46;06
Aaron
And some of those bets are really useful for that as well. So I do think that there's still like a lot of, like a lot of good stuff that this industry can, can bring. It just kind of needed this reset, to clear this, to clear stuff out and whatever passes, like it's always the what else is going to happen?
00;53;46;06 - 00;54;07;16
Aaron
I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, in the the second half of this, administration, we see like more enforcement related stuff as it relates to tokens that may fall outside of this window just to continue to, to build like robust markets, which is kind of the really what the industry needs. But we need robust markets. Doesn't matter what those markets, have trading in it.
00;54;07;16 - 00;54;09;28
Aaron
It really just matters if it's robust.
00;54;10;01 - 00;54;10;29
Pri
Fingers crossed.
00;54;11;01 - 00;54;15;12
Aaron
Fingers crossed. Did you guys see you can buy robots on Amazon now Daniel.
00;54;15;12 - 00;54;26;22
Daniel
Yeah I did see that. Yeah I mean I don't know what I would I don't know what I would do with it at this point because I don't think they're very useful. And I mean would be very funny for, for content that seems like the main, the main purpose.
00;54;26;29 - 00;54;30;10
Aaron
Like it's like a 1980s sitcom, like Daniel and his robot.
00;54;30;12 - 00;54;45;02
Daniel
I'm not sure that's like, I'm sure that's what people are using them for. You know, even if they're like, fun experiments, it's ultimately it's for content. But I would love to. I would love to have one as soon as they are useful in some, some regard besides, the meme, I mean.
00;54;45;02 - 00;54;45;22
Aaron
They.
00;54;45;24 - 00;54;52;06
Daniel
Did you see that, Nick land is the new safety. I say if he's right next I.
00;54;52;08 - 00;54;53;23
Aaron
Know is he really? Is that a joke?
00;54;54;01 - 00;55;15;06
Daniel
I don't know if it's a joke or not, but, Elon did reply to him, earnestly. So, yeah. Nick land said, I hereby solemnly commit upon taking office. As I say, these are to devote myself from day one to fast tracking grants, constitutional and especially First and Second Amendment rights with the Gnostic Calvinism stuff kept strictly outside office hours.
00;55;15;08 - 00;55;20;03
Daniel
Yeah. I mean it. It's funny that he's having such a an ascendant moment right now.
00;55;20;03 - 00;55;21;06
Aaron
I don't know, an Elon robot.
00;55;21;06 - 00;55;22;07
Pri
Yeah. It's crazy.
00;55;22;10 - 00;55;23;17
Aaron
Sounds good to me.
00;55;23;24 - 00;55;26;10
Daniel
Yes.
00;55;26;13 - 00;55;30;01
Aaron
Like, this is how that happens. The Second Amendment right piece is, interesting.
00;55;30;05 - 00;55;30;23
Daniel
Yeah.
00;55;30;23 - 00;55;33;16
Aaron
So what does that mean? What does that mean?
00;55;33;18 - 00;55;34;20
Daniel
Rock. Yeah.
00;55;34;27 - 00;55;40;03
Aaron
The robots get guns. That's that's terrifying. Yeah. That's like literally my nightmare.
00;55;40;06 - 00;55;42;07
Daniel
VSM that's a funny coming.
00;55;42;11 - 00;55;52;25
Chris
Here's the thing, Aaron. I actually think that, we get robots in policing far faster than elsewhere, in society.
00;55;52;27 - 00;55;56;04
Aaron
Oh, yeah. Yeah, like RoboCop stuff. Yeah.
00;55;56;06 - 00;56;13;01
Chris
Yeah. I mean, I think it becomes a, appealing solution on both sides. You know, you look at this stuff up in Minnesota, like, I mean, you know, any number of, you know, instances of, you know, overreach and all of a sudden that becomes an attractive solution, I think.
00;56;13;04 - 00;56;14;20
Aaron
Yeah, I think that's right.
00;56;14;27 - 00;56;19;18
Chris
The, the only real issue is trying to to break the police unions over that once.
00;56;19;21 - 00;56;24;16
Aaron
Whether they'll, the buddy them up right. They'll have to have, like, a human with them.
00;56;24;16 - 00;56;25;11
Pri
I don't know, you just.
00;56;25;12 - 00;56;29;29
Chris
You just tell cops you can get a pension. And, when you retire early.
00;56;30;02 - 00;56;32;13
Pri
The unions are blocking the robots, though.
00;56;32;15 - 00;56;33;02
Aaron
It's kind of like.
00;56;33;05 - 00;56;34;09
Pri
In New York now.
00;56;34;11 - 00;56;37;11
Aaron
Yeah, I saw that. Did they give any rationale for that?
00;56;37;14 - 00;56;39;11
Pri
It was a unions.
00;56;39;13 - 00;56;42;06
Aaron
Which unions drive a taxi?
00;56;42;09 - 00;56;47;15
Pri
Uber unions to, I think, like, just. Yeah, whatever those groups are, I can find the exact groups.
00;56;47;22 - 00;56;52;26
Aaron
Yeah. I mean, that's that's another Europe move from, from, New York. Right?
00;56;52;29 - 00;56;56;06
Pri
I don't know, it's so disappointing. I'm, like, obsessed with Waymo.
00;56;56;08 - 00;57;02;25
Chris
There's no special interests or there's no new technology, special interests in New York. And, not squelch.
00;57;02;27 - 00;57;09;04
Aaron
But like, again, like, what's the strategy there? Just like New York degrades in terms of quality. Like it's not.
00;57;09;06 - 00;57;09;22
Chris
Maybe not.
00;57;09;25 - 00;57;10;18
Aaron
Standpoint.
00;57;10;20 - 00;57;14;03
Chris
Upstate governor's in office. You know.
00;57;14;05 - 00;57;26;08
Aaron
Who are we going to get? I mean, they're trying to, you know, promote the, national profile of, folks like AOC. And, it feels like the national stage is rejecting it a little bit, even though don't know.
00;57;26;10 - 00;57;31;20
Chris
If there's, like, anyone inside, like the New York political sphere I'm excited about. I mean.
00;57;31;22 - 00;57;33;16
Aaron
It feels like it's out of ideas.
00;57;33;18 - 00;57;46;20
Chris
Yeah. We tend to breed a lot of bad of a lot of bad folks. And then when we get, like, competent people, like, you hate them anyway, you know, like Bloomberg, it was a very effective mayor and he was a complete arrogant ass. You know.
00;57;46;23 - 00;57;49;18
Aaron
I mean, Trump's New York too, right? And if you think, oh yeah.
00;57;49;20 - 00;57;50;23
Pri
Oh yeah.
00;57;50;26 - 00;58;00;13
Chris
He's a Queens guy. You kidding me? Like Queens is, look, Queens, produced him produce. Cuomo produce. Mom. Danny. You know.
00;58;00;16 - 00;58;11;11
Aaron
Queens produces. I think that that is definitely true. And it produced the Mets that were one of the most mediocre, MLB teams of the last, 20 plus years.
00;58;11;14 - 00;58;15;19
Chris
Pretty. Did you catch, this week's industry? The Mets got a shout out there.
00;58;15;21 - 00;58;19;22
Pri
I literally thought of you. I was like, oh, my God, I feel like.
00;58;19;25 - 00;58;22;26
Aaron
What was the context that what they said.
00;58;22;28 - 00;58;31;03
Pri
Eric was like had a nice little, like, moment for the Mets. I forgot what he said, though. Yeah, just like being disappointed.
00;58;31;05 - 00;58;35;16
Chris
Exactly. Dealing with, like, confusion and disappointment as a way of life.
00;58;35;18 - 00;58;42;04
Pri
And when to when they do. When it's like the sweetest thing ever or something like that. I feel like that was like the take away from his commentary.
00;58;42;05 - 00;58;45;17
Aaron
It's like waiting for the Messiah. That hasn't come in a long time.
00;58;45;17 - 00;58;48;23
Pri
So yeah, but it's extra. See if it does.
00;58;48;25 - 00;59;00;02
Aaron
Who knows if will ever taste that sweetness? We'll see. What do you guys think about, prediction markets going, killing, more institutional. You see those hedge funds starting to hire traders related to it?
00;59;00;04 - 00;59;07;18
Pri
I did see that. That was crazy. I also think the Substack, Poly Market collab is a little interesting, too.
00;59;07;21 - 00;59;10;07
Aaron
Yeah, I saw that. What's what's the Tldr there?
00;59;10;10 - 00;59;34;18
Pri
I don't actually know the details as far as like how they're going to incorporate prediction markets within Substack. But they did announce like a big partnership. And, you know, Substack is moving more towards video. And I think Substack is also doing television. So I mean, I'm sure it's going to be like integrated in their new television programing or like however they end of rolling that out, I would think that they will just like layer in prediction markets as part of that.
00;59;34;21 - 00;59;36;24
Pri
Those like my these are like assumptions though.
00;59;37;00 - 00;59;42;17
Chris
Is this their 1010 year plan for, the Ellison family to buy slop stack?
00;59;42;19 - 01;00;04;07
Daniel
Yeah. I kind of and bearish on prediction markets in the in the medium term. Like I think that there's there's so dependent on people losing money consistently for them to be profitable. You know like very similar dynamic is meme point. It's just like I think I think it's going to become a much less desirable arena to play in.
01;00;04;07 - 01;00;28;21
Daniel
It's going to get solved. And, and, it will see. I think it's also if there is any regulations which they probably should be about, you know, insider trading like some specific, specific, prediction market insider trading laws. It could really, you know, basically, no matter what. Yeah. Neutral. Whatever is the actual, supposed benefit of them is as being bound bounties for insider trading.
01;00;28;24 - 01;00;57;04
Aaron
Yeah. My my gut kind of tells me that there'll be something around that. I don't fully know the shape of it yet, but I do wonder if, like the political markets, which do seem valuable, like kind of are accountability balance to that over time, you know, like they'll kind of like draw down their user base and then like a new crop comes in because of all of the like, highly liquid political markets, which, which maybe then like feed that machine, a bit more then I would think that they do.
01;00;57;07 - 01;01;16;04
Aaron
But I do think like after we kind of get through the clarity Act type stuff probably will start at the state level. I think Massachusetts has looked into this and some other states are. I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see some more structure put around, some of the prediction markets, which would be pretty, pretty interesting to kind of see.
01;01;16;07 - 01;01;22;10
Aaron
I think that's definitely coming. But for now, I guess we're, you know, we're living in that world.
01;01;22;12 - 01;01;55;16
Chris
Yeah, I do feel in a lot of ways that all we're doing right now is really trying to understand, primitives for intangible derivatives in a way. And, yes, like ten, 20 years from now, like these things as, you know, mass culture like FanDuel, bills, poly markets, that sort of stuff. I don't think they'll have the the market share they do today, but that, you know, they served a point along a road towards.
01;01;55;20 - 01;02;08;15
Chris
Yeah, something something that we really can't wrap our hands around just yet. But you know, you're going to have like CEOs for emotions or, you know, some, some really strange shit out there.
01;02;08;17 - 01;02;12;15
Aaron
What does that look like? Oh, man, I don't know if I want that.
01;02;12;18 - 01;02;40;22
Chris
Yeah. I mean, in some ways you could almost look at it as like, you know, inference and nodes in, AI networks are capable of holding all sorts of strange beasts in there. And you could you could financialized and programed them. And like I said, I think it's we don't know the shape enough of these primitives yet to be able to, like, accurately predict, you know, what we're trading in 2050.
01;02;40;22 - 01;03;07;14
Chris
But I do feel that look, if if we're placing such, premiums and importance on, on things like attention, content sway, that ultimately markets are going to want to have ways, you know, to be involved in that flow and that we were going to end up. Yeah. Which is some really wild and strange things. I don't think we can really comprehend at the moment yet.
01;03;07;17 - 01;03;31;19
Aaron
Do you think though, like, let's say I keep increasingly let's say we hit the apocalypse, right. Things get really noisy, like too much for anybody to want to, like, play there. And then it gets intermediated intermediated by AI or we post attention economy. Then I think we kind of are like, if everything's so fake, like nothing will capture your attention anymore.
01;03;31;19 - 01;03;48;10
Aaron
So it's going to have to be intermediated. So it's no longer going to be about who can capture humans attention. It may be like a gen tech attention or something. I don't know exactly what it is, but I feel like there's something that's going to break down pretty soon on the attention economy side.
01;03;48;12 - 01;04;16;23
Chris
Yeah, I more and more I feel like we're moving towards flows, you know, being an important thing. And you know this this might be something around like flows of computation. You know it's hard to describe. But if you definitely if you look backwards, you know, at this meme coin frenzy, it was a very, very primitive way to, you know, try to trade velocities and flows on attention and that.
01;04;16;23 - 01;04;37;02
Chris
Yes. Garen, as we start, you know, human attention becomes less and less important. That still ultimately points towards like flows of things and velocities and deltas on those flows. And that, to me, kind of feels like the best I can point to right now as it relates to this stuff.
01;04;37;04 - 01;04;38;29
Aaron
Yeah. Daniel, what do you see there?
01;04;39;01 - 01;04;59;08
Daniel
Yeah, I mean, I think the idea of the agenda attention is very interesting. And I don't know what that what that takes, but it does seem like we're at the, you know, accelerating the dead internet, phase. And, Yeah, I just think it's going to be some sort of new, you know, kind of Nash equilibrium that we, we fall into in terms of that.
01;04;59;11 - 01;05;06;16
Daniel
And it's all like attention is going to stop being relevant. It's just going to be, I think, harder to measure is the real issue.
01;05;06;22 - 01;05;49;10
Chris
I mean, look at the electrical markets, right? There's times in Europe when, you know, the cost of energy switches goes negative. You know, like I do. That's true. Yeah. You start getting into something around like latency, energy storage, computation, you know, is like maybe these things start scaling up and they're they're costing becomes more nuanced or, you know, again, like this is a hard to kind of point to you, but I can see, like real bounded resources becoming entangled with, you know, interest based things in a way that sort of justifies the financialization of these things.
01;05;49;12 - 01;06;14;23
Aaron
Maybe it's just tokens, right? Like the token economy, the compute flows. Attention. Whether it's like, financial token or, compute token, maybe, maybe there's more, flavors of those tokens that emerge. It just feels like that the, like dead internet is just going to really be dead in the next six months. You know, maybe I'm off a little bit on that.
01;06;14;29 - 01;06;21;19
Aaron
Maybe it takes like a couple of years, but it just feels like the slops getting really good. Like really good.
01;06;21;22 - 01;06;35;09
Daniel
Yeah. I mean, it's just like TBD. If human verification actually happens in a in a real, meaningful way. Like, do you think it's possible? Obviously world is like set up for exactly this purpose. I could definitely see it happening.
01;06;35;12 - 01;06;53;07
Aaron
Yeah. I just don't know how you like, solve that, coordination, you know, problem. Like, how do you get everybody to use the same standard? Nobody's going to want to give one standard like all that control because it's, like too powerful. So I get why people are trying to grab that brass ring, but I just don't know if that's going to manifest in some sort of way.
01;06;53;09 - 01;07;18;25
Aaron
I do think people are going to want like a shelter from the tsunami of slop that's coming. So I do think, you know that, like dark Forest response to the dead internet feels like roughly right to me. I don't know how big that is, but I don't. I feel like something's going to shift. Pretty, pretty pretty soon. Like, I even just just on Twitter, like, I just find myself, like, constantly asking, like, is this real or not?
01;07;18;27 - 01;07;21;08
Aaron
And, it's just exhausting. Like, it.
01;07;21;08 - 01;07;25;07
Chris
Just makes you want to get more chat, sir, that. Aaron.
01;07;25;10 - 01;07;29;27
Aaron
I know I'm trying, man. It's not. It's not easy to get into that. That flow state.
01;07;29;29 - 01;08;12;27
Chris
Is, you know, I, I do think one of the war that being waged right now is the war to to assert identity on the internet. You know, we look at Great Britain here being, thinking that needs to jump in bed with North Korea and Iran and Cuba and ban VPNs. You know, to me, like, that's one of the more interesting things about this turn towards the agenda is this idea of, you know, dissolution of your identity on the net, on the network or like having multiple identities and, you know, changing different postures, like it's very much in contention that like if, if they can enforce identity on the internet, then what you're
01;08;12;27 - 01;08;35;16
Chris
talking about, Aaron, you know, watermarking blockchain Zeke starts like asserting, truth can can start to matter. I can also just, you know, see a, a different future here in which I look back to my whole talk radio thing, like, does anyone really need to know who, like John from Maspeth, is when he calls into the fan, or is he just a character?
01;08;35;22 - 01;08;41;08
Chris
Right? Like, why isn't the internet just nothing about characters? Because it largely is.
01;08;41;10 - 01;08;59;04
Aaron
Yeah, I think it's already kind of there. I think then I mean, you're starting to see people, right, that are just using filters or, or or whatnot getting like unmasked. So that's just going to get worse and worse. Trust just goes down. I think any media platform needs like some baseline level of trust, unless it's like overtly entertainment.
01;08;59;04 - 01;09;20;01
Aaron
And then if it's overtly entertainment, you know, it, it just has a half life to it. You know, people stop getting entertained by entertaining what we would consider entertaining right now. Like over time. Right? It this stuff just decays. So something's got to shift. I don't know which way it's going to shift that something's got to.
01;09;20;04 - 01;09;22;07
Chris
Well, the shift is towards models.
01;09;22;09 - 01;09;23;26
Aaron
World image, world models.
01;09;23;28 - 01;09;56;14
Chris
Just models. Period. It's the shift towards AI. You know, like we're we're finding new intermediary connections into this network. And so, you know, everything's going to shift I mean, once upon a time. Sure. Like maybe you you really cared that Facebook, Twitter, you know, that social media was your main nexus into, a networked life. And, you know, maybe you just start treating it like a ham radio now that you've got, you know, a more powerful nexus.
01;09;56;16 - 01;10;06;26
Aaron
Yeah, maybe it's attention to product, the productive economy. Maybe that's a good thing. It's like the the end of, of decadence into productivity, the planet productivity.
01;10;06;28 - 01;10;11;24
Daniel
You laugh. That's okay. Seems unlikely to me. I don't know, maybe you're.
01;10;11;24 - 01;10;13;07
Aaron
Like, nah.
01;10;13;09 - 01;10;13;23
Daniel
I don't know.
01;10;14;00 - 01;10;22;07
Aaron
I mean, me and Chris have fallen ill to this, but like, cursor super entertaining like or AI programing is super entertaining. So much.
01;10;22;09 - 01;10;35;02
Daniel
For sure. The question of is that productivity? I mean I think it's, it's it's like pro sumption for sure. And I think that's maybe that's some type of trend beyond just passive consumption. Pro.
01;10;35;02 - 01;10;36;29
Aaron
Sumption I like that. Yeah.
01;10;37;02 - 01;11;01;20
Chris
Yeah. My pro assumption is, you know, CAD services need consumption. That's right. You need to have some form of mastery and, you know, outlets, you can find meanings in. I don't need to know how often the, ASU frat leaders from logging folks. You know, I need to, get all worked up about data models and, systems integration instead.
01;11;01;22 - 01;11;10;10
Aaron
Did you see, by the way, Chris? What's it? The marble. I always forget the name of the parent company, but they raised that more or.
01;11;10;10 - 01;11;10;26
Chris
Less.
01;11;10;28 - 01;11;14;01
Aaron
World Labs. They it a massive amount.
01;11;14;03 - 01;11;21;15
Chris
Yeah. Billion with the B they just went straight to that, Nvidia slash state level investment.
01;11;21;17 - 01;11;25;13
Aaron
Yeah. I thought that was interesting. Like, pretty wild.
01;11;25;15 - 01;11;31;14
Chris
Well, we'll see what comes out of it right now. We just got splats. It's,
01;11;31;17 - 01;11;56;08
Aaron
I think it's getting better. I mean, I feel like a lot of them, there's been some, like, core video efficiency breakthroughs over the past, like, couple weeks, month that that have kind of cropped up, and out like even I think some of the stuff that we're talking about with the, Google models, it feels like they've they've kind of like unleashed the next wave of that, which is pretty cool.
01;11;56;08 - 01;12;06;10
Aaron
Like runway came out with a new model. It feels like there's a lot of innovation now on the diffusion video image creation stuff, which is pretty cool. I'm excited for that.
01;12;06;16 - 01;12;13;22
Chris
Yeah, we got to get to that broadband moment for like, these models in terms of their throughput, production and costing.
01;12;13;25 - 01;12;15;23
Aaron
Yeah, they're just pricey.
01;12;15;26 - 01;12;23;07
Chris
Like as long as you're locked into ten second output that, you know, cost a buck 20 to generate, like that's not a useful format yet.
01;12;23;10 - 01;12;30;17
Daniel
Well, it is for some people. But it's not for, you know, a new form of, like, consumption, that's for sure.
01;12;30;19 - 01;12;54;18
Aaron
Yeah. Oh, it's. So let's just play that out okay. So this year it last year was super expensive. This should be pretty expensive, right. And then by 2027 it gets cheap because it seems like these things you know, the cost of them divide by ten at least every year. Right. So next year it probably like this time next year would probably be insanely cheap to produce images and video.
01;12;54;20 - 01;13;14;24
Daniel
Yeah. I mean, it seems like the frontiers get more I mean continually you get more expensive. And then and then it was also rapidly diffused. And there's some cheap, you know, local, locally runnable version of it within a year and a half later is what I would say. Yeah. So probably for 2028 it'll be basically like free local real time generation, right?
01;13;14;26 - 01;13;15;02
Daniel
Yeah.
01;13;15;02 - 01;13;39;01
Aaron
So end of this year we'll get free local were are almost there like free local real time high reasoning for text and then some point and a next year we'll start to get that for static image and then Prime Video after that. And then I guess the the live streaming slash world stuff will hit in, 2028, like around that point.
01;13;39;04 - 01;14;01;28
Chris
I mean, you'll have images. You kind of have them already today, you know, around like Alibaba is, the various labels there with, you know, Z image. Quinn. Like they're showing that probably the most in. Yeah, yeah. Let's say June, you know, like you'll have local nano, you know, banana pro level imaging, which is why I.
01;14;01;28 - 01;14;06;16
Aaron
Think it's very good. Like a, a pro is very good.
01;14;06;18 - 01;14;32;21
Chris
The, I think the harder problem, right, is you really kind of need to get, like, you know, the cadence to o level quality plus 32nd clip generation. Plus you got to get that costing down, you know, in the 10 to 20 cent per, clip range. Like that's sort of I think the trilemma around video. And so, you know, maybe the end of this year wouldn't that be great?
01;14;32;23 - 01;14;52;17
Aaron
It's coming guys. Well, maybe we end on that kind of optimistic note and I'll intro the show. All right. Well, welcome to Net Society. You got me, Chris Perry and special guest Daniel Keller talking all things internet, crypto, AI, culture and everything in between. So let's kick it off.
01;14;52;18 - 01;14;54;12
Chris
Oh, and thanks for coming on this week, Daniel.
01;14;54;17 - 01;15;03;23
Aaron
Yeah, thanks for having me. I always appreciate your brain, Daniel.
01;15;03;26 - 01;15;04;09
Aaron
You.