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Dentists, Puns, and Money is a podcast focused on two things: The financial topics relevant to dentists leaving clinical practice and the stories and lessons of dentists who have already done so.
1. The stories of dentists who have transitioned from full-time clinical dentistry.
2. The financial topics that are relevant for dentists making that transition.
If you’re a dentist thinking about your exit from clinical, and you’d like to learn from the experiences of other dentists who have made that transition, be sure to subscribe to your favorite podcast app.
Host Shawn Terrell also dives deep into the many financial components of exiting dentistry, including tax reduction strategies and how to live off your assets.
And, we try to keep it light by mixing in a bad joke… or two.
Please note: Dentists, Puns, and Money was previously known as The Practice Growth Podcast until March 2022.
Dentists, Puns, and Money - Dealing with Dental Burnout by Finding a Side Gig
Welcome to Dentists, Puns, and Money I'm your host Shawn Terrell and my guest on today's episode is Dr. Laura Brenner with Lolabees Career Coaching. Laura practice for 10 years before leading global industry due to burn out and she's now a certified professional coach speaker and blogger Dr Lauren I discussed how dentists can spot the signs of burnout and what they can do about it as a reminder our affiliate firm dentist exit planning helps dentists nearing retirement so my contact bill and replace the practice income so they don't have to compromise on that lifestyle that comes along if you are interested in financial guidance on your exit from dentistry schedule an initial consultation with us on our website that's exit.com and with that induction hope you enjoyed my conversation with Dr Laura Brent. All right Dr Laura Brenner welcome to dentists tons of money I am excited to hear your story thank you for joining us. I'm here so the place that I like to start is just with a little background on your journey to this point and if you could share a bit more about where you started in dentistry and come with a jury was like and how it led you to where you are working with us today absolutely so I practiced dentistry for 10 years and in year 3 I decided that I needed it to be very blunt and so you know after all that investment in getting into getting into this career that was a really hard feeling to be aware of I'm really not liking my work and in that moment I decided that I wanted to try to find a different career path and I remember reaching out to one of my supply company wrapped in taking the luncheons and he you know can I do what you do and you convince me not to because he said I was over qualified at least 90 degree and so I just silenced this feeling that I had I was looking for something different I stayed in an entry for 7 more years and it was hard it was a lot of ups and downs a lot of very low downs a lot of low grade depression and anxiety and I just felt worried all the time I felt stressed I was afraid I'm gonna get sued I have insomnia worrying about what what I was doing the next day or whatever he did that day and I was having fun and. Basically I eventually decided to walk away and there's that's a long story which we can get all the details but I decided that I couldn't do it anymore I had to had to quit and so I left right after 10 years and went into weight loss coaching and some other things to replace sets and yeah I mean basically the crazy thing about it was this happened to me at my third year I was in 2000 it was 2004 okay and in fact he doesn't argue remember anybody talk number now in those days no not at all right nothing no 1 is talking about and I remember thinking that I really like that only happen to people who were in a career for a long long time and I was like 3 years and so I just dismissed it and just take it as I don't like what I'm doing and it wasn't until the beginning of 2020 when I started researching burn out and when I found these lists of what are the signs of burnout had every single sign of burnout and so it's kind of interesting to think that it I had to leave the career in a severe burn out it would have been different for me if I knew I had burned out probably not I think I'm still in the right place industry convention was just around me but yeah it's been quite a process of. Dedicate my life to the rear and then realizing it wasn't right for me and then having to create a plan B. so I'm gonna start very early and I started with a follow up question for anyone that's listening that is considering dentistry and maybe what are the signs that wasn't for you that in hindsight you missed before even signed up to go down as well so your question because that's the challenge with dentistry is you can't ever really know what it's like until you're sitting in that chair you're actually doing the work so you have to sort of take a look at it and then by that time you invested so much money in it right so I received dentistry as really awesome to help people and patients were always so fine and graceful and well behaved and I thought it was really straightforward and I have a feeling that a kid and everything was always fine I never had problems I was always a good patient and I love the way that dental offices maybe feel never was so happy and positive we do a dental professional it was such a good job of making this work look easy you know and so I thought it looked great and then didn't realize that so much of what we do is unpredictable and that you know yes most of the patients are really nice people but there are always a handful of an art and so I guess I didn't see that it was such a responsibility that's a funny thing I'm saying I can I think about this idea of carrying the responsibility for patients and that was my fault you know the dentist there have your practice as they're able to let that go Dennis this struggle more is because we are people pleasers we're perfectionists were like trying to make every situation okay for patients and great our patients are great for our staff and our team and we often times okay everyone of ourselves and so we just create a Big Bird in a great amount of pain so maybe more of what you put in what you wanted. No it's interesting and I heard you say what did you take on the feeling of if I had just presented with a planned this way then they will take action implemented it's my fault and take action that I was a small subset whatever you say but that's that's interesting how much of a burden you take on yourself for probation outcomes everything and that's one of the leading causes of burnout is that we don't have the boundaries of what is mine and what is the patient's gives some people really struggle with that H. R. team I always struggled with. If I wanted to ask for them but then if I didn't get a gratitude for working really hard or the plane I was scared I was scared I was gonna get in trouble I didn't like that feelings of confrontation so yeah exactly what you said in your example you're living in constant regret like I should've done this I've done that and you really are so there's a fine line between blame and responsibility right it's very much instead of taking responsibility and owning and then moving on it's like eating yourself up and blaming yourself for not being perfect so I'm not stressed about how you went from I think you said you really nice I thought it was 2 or 3 years and it wasn't for you but you continued in clinical dentistry for another 7 or 8 years well that's a long time to not like what you do every day and were you able to identify well I guess I'll be up to you did you really identified early on it it's not a season of life it's not a relationship in and outside of dentistry it's not not working out this the problems dentistry. And I guess I just watch how did you started about about about a lot of different feelings that is a really good question as well because that's really the heart of the matter is early on we can get in playing these killings the suspicions and we do everything we can to shut it down and dismissed it because even busted so much to get here that we don't we really it's like a marriage dentistry like American and so many of us we've. Without even eating dentistry some of us did data entry right we got jobs and dollars that he really got to see what it was like but for some of us in like I never worked in an office I just bought a life looks so amazing I love people and everybody told me was a great career and so when you hit that point where you're you start to question you really do not shut yourself down and make other excuses like oh maybe it's the job which is valid right if we do we should look at whether it's the job of the career and really what is going on or maybe it's my coping skills and it's great to work for a coach to figure that out I think it's important to do all those things at the end of the day I think sometimes when you know you know and if you really have that feeling this isn't right for me I would say do what you can't I went down to the pink institute or times and I love going to yes either but it never really quite help so he poured everything you can into exam how you see dentistry how your environment is maybe your skills or into that but if you're not feeling keeps coming back over and over if you keep having you know the Sunday blues if you see something you dread coming back to your life and I mean everybody likes everybody wants damages and no one really wants to come home from vacation but I'm talking about like I hate my life like the only worse and depressed if you're seeing this young keep coming back and it's probably around career what was it that finally spurred you to to take action and and get into what you do now in a little bit older deeper what was it that finally helped you move onto clinical dentistry yeah so one day I came home and my husband gave me an ultimatum he said we can't do this anymore you can't come home crying you can't look at you and every night sort it out I don't care what we do if we decide how to move fine but you need to sort out our our marriage talking last. It was amazing I'm laughing because you know it wasn't really an ultimatum but that those are the words he said what did you most need him to say that before yeah absolutely that's what I love about calling an old man because it kind of was not made and it was really permission yeah right permission for me to say okay maybe I can seek out solutions because we think we've invested so much in this that we just don't give ourselves options I mean we dismiss the idea great options for even starts and so I really needed that that was the big turning point and even so I mean I was probably in your 7 of my career started out awhile yeah 3 more years of misery. What I mean by threat so there's some similarities to this and what I do with a financial adviser in finding my lab that works well for for people like me in my industry and we use the term or turning us all out around a lot with that is it's called headrest with all these reasons that you have that you think are true about why you can't do something and I guess with that is the backdrop was the address that you struggle with that made you want to be truly wasn't true about what you could move on clinical dentistry how did you kind of get over that did you find on the other side to be any truth to it yeah I love the internet trash I forgot I'm not there so much unrest and for me it was there's nothing else I could do I have no skills it does with a specific arms deals there's nothing else I will make you money I don't know what I like I mean so many things what people think of me why is where other people able to do this and be happy industry what's wrong with me maybe I just don't like to work which is now makes me laugh because like we didn't get the downfall because we'd like to work and so many of us will question ourselves you still like to work. Really you would have got here if you'd like to work you will get here being lazy so I think those are some of the main things and they're all trash when you go through the process you start to realize and for me was after years of personal development and working with a career coach and working with a therapist and I finally after just over an hour working on our minds that one day I was I just realized he's retired and most people can't do the things that you do like what you call it you know it actually I know we dismiss how hard we work we know where we don't give ourselves credit and so to see that while most people can't do what I can do I can do this I can do anything. That shift from day well I have no other skills to wait a minute I can do anything because I've done this the hardest thing in the world that yeah I'm singling him out of that issue that's not just not hard but it is really hard. But yeah I mean that should have no skills no options then saying okay it's a possibility now and it was really just about okay I know I can't do it now it's your what is it and how can I do it and you can see all of you shift out of that old trash into this new believes it's just gonna be easier to get yourself into action it's amazing how do opportunities probably start presenting themselves once you get to that point 0 percent and there are there a lot right yeah yeah so before getting into how you know help other Dennis with this burn out just really generalizing problem how common is it and I know it's common and was not uncommon but what is your experience been like in terms of any dust are experiencing some form of burn out it's really common I think it's more common than we realize because people don't feel safe expressing it anybody because we don't want our patients to find out what our colleagues to find out what I probably talked to 30 people in the last 30 days you are unhappy in practice and are trying to figure out how to change what to change everyone has a different solution for themselves in my world it's right and 90 percent of dentists are happy because when I'm talking to you so much I would love to know if there are studies in the entire dental community break down how many people are burned out but I think it's more than we're seeing and how do you go about helping dentists that are somewhere on the burnout spectrum find out what's a better way of life within or without dentistry for them yeah so I have this on my website I have read online it says let's get real about your dental career and so for me it's all right let's be honest about what's really going on what you're feeling what you're experiencing and I would break the burn out into 2 different categories people who are burned out and loves their work and then people were burnt out any heat network and I honestly just learning this about 6 months ago when I started burning myself out because I love what I do now and I got to the point where I was crying over stupid things and I was just so frustrated in the idea of looking at emails just have me around and I really haven't had a break in a long time and I had a trick you go out of town and I came back feeling great again and so when you love and I love I didn't love what you do and you get burned out things like vacations. Taking breaks and getting support from other people and creating boundaries those things exercise like those things really help treat your burn out and then you working for a while when you started collecting them again you're probably gonna need to revisit right Marky mark breaks more support but when you are burned out and you eat what you DO none of those things work you go to yoga class you feel great thank you but out the door you feel exactly the same pain you felt before you went in or your vacation is supposed to make you feel refreshed but when you go on a vacation and 3 days in your week long vacation already worrying and dreading going home and then you're even more depressed like I mean I used to have a spot where maybe I shouldn't be in this position because it actually feels worse coming home from it I think it's important I'm talking to people it's hard to differentiate these 2 types of burn out from there you can create a solution a lot of people in dentistry when they're talking or not talking about you don't like it and you know you should do more of the procedures the last update R. C. E. and just get back and or is it always gets me you're you're happy industry and by proxy. Double down right you're unhappy in your marriage together right. I know that works for some people what's interesting that enough for you in some speaking that you've done to you know you sort of that relationship example with dentistry and what I hear you saying is you first have to find whether like you need a horse or does need counseling and from there what's gonna figure that out then there's different paths you can take I just for all those 0 people need certain exit from the Israelis the clinical side of the practice ownership side of it what's that path look like and you helping people find that path and then I'm able to start there I guess we can circle back to people that just need to find a better way within the profession what it looks like as well but I'm just kind of bald eagles right now the first one you tell me would you like to start there with you okay yeah so the path out is anyone who okay actually let me take a step back because the the right treatment for burn out is not necessarily to quit dentistry it might be to just design your career differently maybe you can find a way to work 2 days a week and then find something you can do on the side so I'm all about starting a site that is D.. I suggest for people who are burned out you know you love what you might not have a psychic it makes everybody has so much more fun to make and so much more happy and then they don't care and they are making side income doing something different and then you see the dentistry not a whole world so the reason I suggest starting a side gig is because I believe dentistry we got arsenal you can still make a really good living working a couple days a week and get back most careers don't allow you that and anybody I know either left dentistry or has become some of our most well known entrepreneurs are states are loving what they're doing even a practicing a little bit it all started with psychic we're not relationship yeah that's dating your career that's finding a way to get your yes and learn about what you like and learn about who you are and what this career does work I did work as like with out really taking 100 like no strings attached and you have invested much so if you don't like it on to the next that's what happened I suggest for people who are looking for something different and any other person with people who are yes they try that or they just know that they're done but maybe they don't have weapons outside of money or the practice isn't worth enough money on accommodation I can just retire and not do anything but I can't practice any more than all that kind of what is that look like all right so that is what I suggest for those people okay let's find a way right because how much is your happiness worth find a way to cut back on certain expenses and I never suggest just quitting dentistry if you're ready to retire and that's part of your plan great and I don't think there has to be an age for retirement if you wanna retire at 45 go for it right but if you are stock I need to lead you need income then I would say look long and hard at where you can cut back to try to free up even if it's a half day from your working 5 days a week point 5 a day you can focus on something else for you and it's gonna be worth it when people don't allow that solution and they just a sack and then end up years later really like wasting yours I'm curious about something that I apply to my own life my own news industry I didn't do this until a year point 5 ago but. How many does it actually say in your experience stopped and took an hour in complete silence with a Cup of coffee tea beer wine whatever and like wrote down what they really want other life first and foremost and like starting with that like really high level what we solely for big picture that would start sometimes our help okay I love that too because I think to answer your question not a lot of dentists probably do that which is normal I mean like we thought dentistry was gonna be for some people it is that for those of us who have not we thought it was gonna be the end all be all and why develop any other personalized India for everything right what I find is if people were to sit down for an hour with a Cup of coffee and try to write as like vision they wouldn't know what to write on paper because they become so disassociated from what they watch because dentistry in so many ways has become like I just a second ago it's become like we settling things gonna be this perfect life and we focused all on it we forget who we are what we what we are free to say what we want and so that's where we need to ask you a little extra work to be able to come up with the material to write down a keeper Andy okay west if that degenerate you'll have to know everything can change how I think about it but there's this expectation out there for whatever was light is supposed to be I think if you can just like like old expectations sometimes that is pretty liberating it's so liberating and that expectation is what I think so many of us stock and what most people who break free from not realize is that when you make your choice and your confidence if you don't feel inside you portray confidence in those around you that you're excited and confident about what you're doing people will feel the same way for you but I am people years ago who a couple people they would say oh well after all those years of education and all that money spent on your education hello how are you doing like how could you walk away and these are strangers right industry they were it was like my friend's mom you don't get a job you know I remember saying to me and yeah it's kind of hard but I just said you know what it wasn't worth it the people that really get will say good for you exactly but when you own it you will hear people say that happens to me the more you look at your people say it and people when they say that they're not trying to be Nina really helping right and it is not understanding that's the they just don't they don't know that like when the pay. I mean is that bad I see that you couldn't pay me enough to live this way so I personally just to cut down my financial earnings because I was like I don't care this isn't working I don't care I will get one extra year or whatever and that helps me feel free and then you can find something that you can build and build up your total income for time so let's bring it back to action for people that is resonating with us and they would like to explore whether burnout isn't what some possible options are to have solutions for it was the first up with you and are you work with people yes so I have I do coaching I do one on one coaching and I also have a group program that you just you know how to start their psychic the first step is to reach out to me and I offer free consoles to help people it's like in dentistry 8 you have to diagnose the problem in order to get the right treatment plant right these consultation thank you are like for diagnosing your career you can then figure out what is your complaint and if it's something I can help people with that we discussed and if not I share the resources with them it's that simple if you are ready to talk to someone yet I've got a group where you can just kind of watch and explore what people watching there because this is a topic that's a lot more sense and. Right and people maybe aren't willing to put a face on it publicly yeah even another Dennis I'm guessing totally exactly so yes the management group is called into sight gags John you're not are you know you should join I think I look at okay I was working for me or other okay hold a minute yeah I will go ahead and not in my myself and thank you yeah also because you're helping dentistry back exit strategy right and this is probably not a podcast I'm intrigued about if you could talk about your lifestyle some and be way happier working last I don't understand why people do that but I also don't understand everyone's everyone's situation is different I recognize it is not a party to think that way but yeah that's that's something that I try to ask these high level questions people I work with as well so it's all interesting stuff to me if we throw our conversation today is everything I haven't hit on that you think is important to mention we haven't covered that you would like to add it is really complete I'm just waiting for you to ask for my joke yes the name of the podcast is after all dancers on the money so it can be upon it could be a dumb joke everyone look at it but the yeah the Mike is yours okay so I don't really I'm not a joke teller really but and it's not really a jerk but through this process when I one of the things that helped me connect with my creativity and really start to imagine sitting down for an hour writing a letter I couldn't remember what one of the things I started doing to help me understand more about who I was what I wanted was I started a block and I was talking about things that I like to travel and no one right it is great to help meet increasing awareness and that was when I started doing all the different opportunities out there and then I finally got a street and I found a blog post just what I was looking around online and 10 reasons I hate the dentist and I was like alright well fine here's 10 reasons are Dennis probably if you do so there you know I read this blog post 10 reasons you're gonna probably need you to and overnight it went viral which showed me that a lot of people I don't know anyone else the way I did yeah it's a stigma of that and then I realized wow there's so many other people that feel as we do so if you want I can tell you a few of my 10 reasons your dentist probably need you to nail down a couple of them all right here's one is number one the first thing you say when you sit down in my chair is I hate the dentist and my response to that is really did your parents teach you any manners did ever teach you that it's impolite to talk when you get a moment greet them what I really want to get back as. Are you still so that was the first time let's see what's another good one all right I tell you that you have a cavity and you need a filling and you wait months or even years to get the necessary work on an my explanation is eventually that you start turning oh no sorry that's the idea of having you wait months or years to get the necessary we're done and then you start hurting you with something about you coming out of Saturday Night Live interest rents because your tooth that needed a filling a year ago and started running 2 weeks ago is suddenly emerged you know they're kind of like either Starkey they're joking but when you read it makes you laugh so I don't have a joke but my 10 reasons are Dennis probably due to is one giant dental joke and that's on your website and it has a great chance of the plug one side of the road absolutely so you can just Google 10 reasons I need to do in my neck because I'll come up right away my website is lolabeescareercoaching.com awesome that is doctor Laura Brenner certified professional coach and owner of Loloabees career coaching Dr Laura thank you for sharing your story your expertise and for being a guest on dentists funds and money is great that's what you sign in thanks so much for having me. Thanks for listening and following along are you a dentist nearing your retirement from clinical or have you already gone up your hands would you like to learn more about ways to reduce your taxes and generate income from your assets in retirement our affiliated firm dentist explaining might be able to help you with those 2 things schedule an initial consultation with us on our website our web address is dentist exit.com there's no obligation for your initial consultation again schedule an initial consultation at the dentist exit.com as for our disclosure dentist explaining in televisores is a registered investment adviser the information presented should not be interpreted or construed as investment legal tax financial planning or wealth management advice it does not substitute for personalized investment or financial planning from a distinctive planning or terabytes this podcast conveys the views and opinions of Sean Carroll and his guests and the information herein should not be considered a solicitation to engage in a particular investment or financial planning strategy information presented is for educational purposes only and past performance is not indicative of future results.