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Chip Ingram, teaching pastor and CEO of Living on the Edge, shares about his new book: Yes, You Really Can Change: What to Do When You're Spiritually Stuck.
In each episode you will discover effective ways to recruit more leaders, form better groups, and make more disciples. Guests to this monthly podcast will include small group and discipleship experts like Carl George, Dr. Warren Bird, Steve Gladen, Mark Howell, Dr. Bill Donahue, Bill Willits, Chris Surratt, as well as some pastors you've never heard of who are doing some amazing things with small groups and discipleship.
Chip Ingram:
And I know for me, I'd been a Christian about three years, I was ready to give up. Okay. I didn't cuss. I wasn't sleeping with anyone. I was a nicer person. I was going to church. I was actually reading my Bible regularly, but internally lust greed, comparing myself with others and internal anger. They weren't changing. And I thought maybe this doesn't work.
Allen White:
Welcome to the exponential groups podcast. I'm your host, Alan White. This podcast is designed to help you take the guesswork out of groups. In each episode, you will discover effective ways to recruit more leaders, form better groups, and make more disciples. Please subscribe to this monthly podcast on iTunes, Google play, or wherever you get your podcast. Today's guest is tripping. Ingram chip is the teaching pastor and CEO of living on the edge and international teaching and discipleship ministry. A pastor for over 30 years, chip is the author of many books, including Holy ambition. Discover your true self, true spirituality, the real God, the invisible war, and the soon to be released book. Yes, you really can change chip. And his wife Theresa have four grown children and 12 grandchildren and live in California for the show notes for this episode, go to Alan white.org forward slash episode three. That's a L L E N w H I T E dot O R G forward slash episode three. All right, chip. Welcome to the
Chip Ingram:
Podcast. Great to be with you, Alan. Thanks for having me.
Allen White:
Hey, good to have you here. Um, so we met about six years ago. You were pastoring a church in Silicon Valley and, uh, you set a pretty big goal. I think you had about a hundred groups at the time and you wanted me to help the church get to 400 groups. Do you remember that? I do. Yeah. So we, we did curriculum with Holy ambition. And if you could just maybe tell the folks, uh, the rest of the story.
Chip Ingram:
Well, you know, we learned that, um, you know, life change happens from the truth. Of course you'll know the truth. The truth will set you free. People can hear it, they can read it, they can listen, but there's something powerful. Alan, when, uh, people here when they study and then when they interact with one another, with a purpose that what does God want us to do? And that was the real goal. And so Holy ambition is about discovering your purpose. And I think the subtitle is something about transforming God ideas into practice or reality. And what we knew was there's a lot of old ways to do small groups and it takes weeks and weeks and you get a group of people to sign up over here and you create a bunch of leaders and we decided with your help, that we would, um, try to do.
Chip Ingram:
And we had good trust. So we literally said, Hey, if you will just volunteer, we'll help you. We'll equip you by that. We met Alan well with our team and, uh, and you can invite believers unbelievers because of the nature of it. Everyone wants to find their purpose and it was a tremendous success. So we had people say, okay, um, I'll do this. And then I'll recruit my own group even. And, uh, those of you that are already in a group, that's fine. And we just had hundreds and hundreds of people go through actually probably thousands of people go through it and hundreds of group launched. And then the neat part was pretty soon stuff started bubbling up. And, uh, a guy that, uh, I mean, this is one of scores and scores of stories, but it was the, the fall and winter was coming.
Chip Ingram:
And he was a guy that had never been involved, much. He was invited to a group and he saw a homeless person and said, we should do something about that. And built into the small group material. Was this idea that what is your group going to do instead of, you know, so many small groups, I don't mean this critically, but it gets to be about, you know, talking about what the text says and, and sharing your life and all that's really important, but the missional part often gets neglected and this was a very missional focus. And so this guy said, I think, um, I, I like to maybe find all my old coats and jackets and just help some homeless people. And would you all do it with me? Well, they said, wow, what a good idea. So they started to do it well, then they shared it. Well, all I can tell you is I can still remember these huge bans, hundreds or hundreds. So the whole church said, wow, that's a great idea. We all, you know, I don't know, maybe 4,000 people were attending the services at the time. We, uh, we saw people clothed and help and loved. That's the story from one small group that got missional. So thank you. Uh, you did a great job on that and, uh, God, God worked in, in the Bay area because of it.
Allen White:
Well, and that's, it's, it's good to hear. And so thank you for the opportunity there. Now, church has changed in the last 12 months significantly, and I know a lot of pastors, uh, were either, you know, uh, hunkering down to wait for it all to blow over, or they were doing the best they could to get online. And, and ministry has been decentralized, you know, beyond what anybody ever imagined. You know, the whole debate of, you know, should we be a church with small groups or a church of small groups? Well, all of a sudden everybody was a church of small groups cause nobody can meet in person. Um, now you have led, um, living on the edge for quite a number of years. And so you understand the idea of a decentralized ministry. You have groups that are all over the country, all over the world, uh, studying materials. Um, what kind of insights would you have for a local pastor who finds himself in a de-centralized ministry that he probably was not equipped in seminary?
Chip Ingram:
The first thing I would say, I actually, uh, during this pandemic, we ended up probably out of preservation and my own struggles and my son's a pastor. So many of my close friends and I saw guys really struggling some of the larger churches that already had something online that could shift. They had quite a bit of resources, but, uh, for a lot of pastors, it was K Facebook live. How do I do that? How do you preach into a camera? Um, people were discouraged. Uh, how do I, how do I maintain groups? And I would say in the last year or so, a lot of people have learned. And now I think some of the challenges are, are people are going to come back together. Uh, when I do start meeting in person, which even in California where it's, it's opening up, but there's sort of this hybrid, the churches, I know that probably are being most effective because you know, we've been through, I think some of the most divisive time in my adult life, inside of the church, whether it's blue and red, you know, 25 year old versus a 65 year old, that happened to live in the same house.
Chip Ingram:
It'd be on the opposite ends of the continuum at both. Look at it through some very important biblical lenses. And yet, I mean, and then should I wear a mask or not where I'm asked, should the church open or not open? I have met and talk with, uh, literally hundreds of pastors. And I've just, I want people to hear, you know, uh, half the church says, if I opened the church, they're going to leave and keep the other hat that says, if you don't open the church, I'm going to leave. So what I would say is this may sound so counter-intuitive the greatest thing I think is a pastor you can do is one guard and make sure your own soul and your own family is in a healthy place, pressure and the stress and the bad decisions that come from trauma. You not going to please, everyone.
Chip Ingram:
Second, I think it's really important to get your key leaders and go back to what is our mission and what is our vision? What are we really trying to accomplish? Don't jump to what should our tactics be and should we open or not open or mask or semi mask, and then ask yourself if that's our mission and we've come together and we've prayed in light of the current situations and our world. It's different in Georgia than it is in California. It's different for a church of 50, a hundred or 300 than a church of 4,000 or 2000, not good or bad. It's just different now in our cultural with where our church is, God, what do you want us to do? And how, and I do think, you know, podcasts like yours, there really is help out there. I mean, if nothing else, you know, maybe you can give some pointers on where to, you know, how to do online ministry a bit better.
Chip Ingram:
But I think we've learned a lot. I honestly I've seen some churches that have closed, especially internationally. And I've seen some other churches, literally they've grown in their small groups and doing them by zoom. They have actually seen attendance mushroom. Now what they don't know is when, and if we go live, if we go live and how that looks, I think what you need to do is be thinking about, uh, what do we do then? And, uh, we actually put together and hope this is not a plug, but I just did a thing for pastors, a global webinar where I did a six week series on, okay, what now, what next, what are the core things and where do we need to go? And, uh, maybe you can, now that there's something on here,
Allen White:
Team can give me a link to that. I'd be happy to put it in the show notes.
Chip Ingram:
It just, it just launched. And
Allen White:
That's great. Yeah. And I know that, you know, a lot of guys were, you know, COVID brought a lot of confusion, but I think COVID also brought a lot of clarity of what was essential in the church. What was not essential in the church. And I know for me, just in circumstances in general, one of the questions I have started asking myself, I have it up here on the wall, but my desk is when something happens, I ask myself, what does this make possible now? Hopefully it's not my retirement or my firing, but what does this make possible if you know, what can we do now that we couldn't do before, instead of looking at all the we've lost and all that we're grieving. Um, I think it makes a big difference.
Chip Ingram:
Well, we're on the same page, much of, uh, what I did with pastors after talking to ones in India, Africa, South America, America was, Hey, there are some losses, but this is the season for innovation, for bold leadership for not looking at what's been lost. But what new there's few times that will happen in any hundred year period as drastic that will allow us to make some changes and address some things that really every major movement of God has happened, not during the mountain peaks, but in the deepest LOLs, when we get dependent to we get new eyes and, um, this is not a Bible verse, but it is true is, um, you know, what's, what's the old phrase. Uh, the mother of invention, I would necessity is the mother of necessity. You can't do it. I mean, there's, there's a lot of people talking to their grandkids that before COVID said, you know what, Oh, I can't use the internet or, you know, I can't do this. I can't do that. I got news. They're doing it. Yes they are. And definitely necessity
Allen White:
Is the mother of invention. Today's featured resource is the exponential groups. Suite. The suite is made up of two books and an online course you'll receive my first book, exponential groups unleashing your church's potential. The exponential groups workbook and the exponential groups course, the course is a behind the scenes, look at the proven strategies which have launched thousands of new groups in the last 16 years. Each session shows you how we've done it and how it can work for your church to great goals. Need a great plan. And this online course, we're sharing components of the exponential group strategy with you. Each of the 21 video sessions is available on demand. Many of the templates, timelines, and examples from the exponential groups, workbook are available as downloads throughout the course, the sessions are packed with practical information that you can apply immediately, but we also want this course to fit your busy schedule, no fluff, just the good stuff. The exponential group suite is available for only $25 with free us shipping the offer expires on March 31st. So sign up right now, go to Alan white.org/offer for more information. Well, you have a new book out called yes. You really can change a what to do when you're spiritually stuck. And I saw that it's coming out in April the sixth. I they'll get this chip. I had a book that came out last year. My release date was April 1st, 2020. How's that for a release date? Uh,
Chip Ingram:
I would not do that one on purpose, but are you just fooling? Yeah,
Allen White:
No. Yeah, for sure. I wish I was, but no, that was the date. So yes, you really can change. And you talk about people being spiritually stuck. What, what do you mean by that phrase spiritually stuck? Well, I think,
Chip Ingram:
Uh, we all get stuck in certain seasons. I mean, if you even read through the Psalms David, a man after God's own heart, I mean, you, you read that and you realize, man, he's dancing and praising God, and then there's a couple of them. It sounds like he's clinically depressed. So life isn't even, uh, sometimes there's spiritual, malnutrition, you know, over time you don't take in enough of the truth. Uh, some people over time you get caught in moralism, the Christian faith is about just being a good person or you get stuck in legalism. Somehow you think that it's all about your performance or honestly, sometimes you get stuck because of lack of variety. Sometimes you get stuck because you have some bad theology that you just think that it really all depends on you or, Oh, it just all depends on God. Uh, sometimes you go through trauma, you know, you're, everything's going great when your kids get sick or worse, or your wife or husband leaves you, or you find yourself in the middle of a church that's split.
Chip Ingram:
And it's like, God, where are you? And I think there's a lot of that really want to change. But maybe after a pandemic found that, you know, it used to be just a glass of wine before they went to bed and it's not just one anymore or, you know, a TV or that old logging on and watching some stuff that wasn't very healthy or anger issues. I think we all just get stuck. And in times like now, um, there's probably a lot of people that it can be as benign as food or too much TV, um, that subtle drift where you don't hear God's voice and you know, there's thoughts and words coming out of your mouth and a part of your life. That is not what God wants it to be. And it's not what you want it to be. And this book is about how does life change really occur?
Allen White:
Oh, that's good. That's good. Because one of the things that has puzzled me, not only as a pastor, but also as a, you know, a believer myself follower of Jesus is that for, for someone who is saved, the Bible tells us we have the same power resident in us that raised Jesus from the dead. And so here's been my, my predicament, my puzzle has been, if this power is in me, why is it so hard for me to change? And you talk about in the book, the process of transformation, what, what does that look like?
Chip Ingram:
Well, the book is rooted and actually it's an exposition, um, that I think is very contemporary of Ephesians chapter four. And, uh, in the first three verses he does something very counter-intuitive transformation. Doesn't start with how most of us, when I trusted Christ, the first thing they said was go to church, read your Bible, start praying and start breaking all those bad habits, like my filthy mouth, et cetera. Now, I please don't hear that, that those things aren't important. They are. But after Paul tells us who we are in Christ, and he says to walk in a manner worthy. In other words, your belief and your behavior tell the same thing he says with all humility, with all gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another. In other words, he says that actually life change is going to happen in the context of deep, authentic relationships.
Chip Ingram:
And then he's going to tell you that you already have this unity and then verses seven through 10, he talks about that power that you have, and then heal. Then he says, Hey, there's this supernatural community called the church that allows you to access it. And then he gets to the personal side in verses 17 to 24, where he says put off. And it's a picture. It's a metaphor of taking, like taking off old, dirty, bad clothes and have your mind renewed and then put on new clothes, new virtues, and that put off, have your mind renewed. I think many of us unconsciously have never learned that. And so what we know is good. Christians don't cuss, good Christians don't log on to, they don't drink too much. They don't blow up with their temper. And we learn maybe to adjust the external things. And I know for me, I'd been a Christian about three years, I was ready to give up.
Chip Ingram:
Okay. I didn't cuss. I wasn't sleeping with anyone. I was a nicer person. I was going to church. I was actually reading my Bible regularly, but internally lust greed, comparing myself with others and internal anger. They weren't changing. And I thought maybe this doesn't work. I didn't understand that I needed to renew my mind. I didn't understand that. I needed to recognize what are those specific things who I am in Christ my identity, and then how do I put on? And so this book is really super practical for that person who says, this is my experience after 38 years as a pastor, uh, I know a great, great majority of Christians who couldn't try any harder to be good and try hard, try hard, fail, try hard, try hard fail. And at some point in some areas that most people can't see, it's try hard.
Chip Ingram:
Don't try quite so hard vacant. And, and then over time, pretty soon, you know, everyone else's watching movies are pretty racy and you know, everyone else, you know, their language slips up here and there. And pretty soon what's happened is, you know, it used to be wrong to have an un-biblical divorce, but it seems like even a lot of leaders are doing that now. And so now part of my passion and writing this book, Alan, is, you know, when I read a Barna study or a Pew study and you find that maybe eight out of 10 professing born again, I love Jesus believers. Life is no different than an unbeliever. The tragedy is they're missing out on God's best and perhaps equally, or maybe even worse unbelievers, see Christians not living like Christians. And it undermines the validity of the gospel. And so part of this book is I long for people, you know, our, our tagline at living on the edge is helping Christians live like Christians. And that doesn't mean perfect. That means authentic. That means, of course you're always on the journey, but you're really making progress. And when you blow it, you know, what Christians do they say, wow, I blew it. So I'm going to repent. And I'm going to tell so-and-so, I'm sorry, and I'm going to ask God for help and I'm not going to hide it. So that's the heart behind what I'm trying to get across in this book.
Allen White:
Yeah. Cause I mean, there's, there's such a richness in a person's life when you practice dying to yourself and, and, you know, and having that intimate relationship with God than it puts, right. You mentioned this a little bit, but that you quote in the book or to quote you from the book, um, is it ever angelical, Christianity has developed a culture in which no one is surprised when someone prays to receive Christ and continues in a lifestyle of minimal change. Um, how did the church get here and how can we challenge this trend?
Chip Ingram:
Well, you know, this is a trend that has gone on for a couple of thousand years and ebbs and flows and different cultures. What I will say is a bad, is not the trend. I've been to China seven times in the last four years and had my plane tickets before COVID hit. And I will tell you if you're a follower of Christ in China, your life radically changes because I got news for you. Um, there's a high price to pay, to be a follower of Christ. And I think when the culture and Christianity, uh, get sort of wedded together, and I think in our day, the American dream and the gospel somehow little by little, got God got this relationship that was like too good to be true. And so instead of God's agenda all through scripture is to conform us to the image of his son.
Chip Ingram:
I mean, I could quote literally 10 verses on, Hey, this, this is, this is the goal to present every man complete in Christ and to be pure, to be perfect, even as our heavenly father is. And I think it got shifted to Jesus is the way to be happy, uh, to be upwardly mobile, to have a great marriage, to have your kids turn out right. And so pretty soon. And I, I applaud, uh, I think there was a time when, you know, there was such a separatists view. I think the movement to be more seeker sensitive and let unbelievers know that the gospel is accessible, but I think we got so seeker sensitive that we just, we didn't get close to the culture we fell in. And so over time, um, what it means to be a follower, um, in the name of not being legalistic in the name of it's all about grace, which is true, but the Bible says Titus to a 12 and 13, it's the grace of God that teaches us to say no to all ungodliness and worldliness and to live a Holy lives.
Chip Ingram:
And so, uh, I, I think it's been, you know, a gradual shift and let's face it. We've got three major enemies. I still have my flesh, right. I still have those desires from my old life Christ lives in me. But, uh, and my flesh has drawn. I have a world system daily, like never before with access with the internet on the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life. So there's great opportunity. And then I'm in a spiritual battle where there are actual, I mean, evil angels seeking to tempt and to trick and to scheme. So it's a real battle. And if we don't renew our mind, if we're not doing what you're a specialist in doing life and authentic community, um, man, we are, we're going to get killed. And I think that's happened a lot, but it doesn't have to be that way. I'm hopeful.
Allen White:
Yeah, definitely. And I think there, you know, to change our expectation, our expectation is when someone comes to Christ and they're saved that their lives should be radically transformed. And I think sometimes in, um, you know, you and I can talk Turkey, I think sometimes in our effort to just keep them coming back, keep them coming back that, um, you know, sometimes we'll, we'd be tempted to let things slip, but the reality is if we're coddling people in their sinfulness, how are we helping them? You know, I, it just doesn't make any sense to me. But on the other hand, it's like I grew up in a legalistic background, you know, I always joke that, uh, we were never allowed to belly up to the bar, but, you know, we could belly up to the buffet and that's how we got the belly. Um, but, and so I, I know that there's a balance, but I also know that, you know, God can work in us and transform us. And I remember talking to a young believer years ago, who just felt like they were letting God down because they were struggling so much. And I said, Oh, I said, you're not letting God down. I said, the fact that you're struggling means that God's spirit is working within you when you need to worry is when there's no longer a struggle. That's the problem. So yeah, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm right with you.
Chip Ingram:
And I think building on that too, is I think some, something happened along the way where being a good Christian is about a list of things you do, or you don't do. And, um, and, and believe me, um, the spirit of God is Holy and it does produce a Holy life. The heart of that though flows, not out of rules that you're going to keep it's, it's intimacy with Christ. It's the goal of, yes, you can really change is when you have intimate, deep relationship with the Lord, Jesus, and actually believe not just that he loves you, but he, that he likes you, that he wants to spend time with you. We all become like the people that we hang out with. And part of it is if we could just understand and instead of, Oh, I didn't read two chapters today. God's down on me. No, no, no. You maybe missed a good conversation, but he's for you. And so part of this book is about how do you experience God? Because when you, do you want to do the right things?
Allen White:
Yes, no, I, I completely agree. Now in the book, you talk about the idea of, uh, of passive faith. What is passive faith and why might that be dangerous?
Chip Ingram:
Yeah, I think passive faith is sort of like this idea of, um, God, I prayed to receive Christ. And if you're going to do something really significant, I'm waiting for you to show me what I'm supposed to do, or Hey, I'm passive. Faith is a quick story, might be helpful. Um, a guy would be in most churches and he came to our church. So I'm not, this is not negative anywhere else. This is, this is where I was the pastor. Uh, he went to a good school. He was a football player. He became a doctor. He became a specialist. He came to church regularly. Uh, he became upperly mobile. If you ask him, he believed in God, he could articulate the gospel and, um, bound a few cracks in his marriage, his kids more and more, became more and more entitled. And, uh, I had a major injury and we got to know each other.
Chip Ingram:
And in the midst of that, I just was trying to say, thanks. I gave him the book, true spirituality, what it means to become a Romans 12 Christian, which basically is just, I mean, the nuts and bolts of what does an authentic Christian look like. I mean, and relationally in Graceville and he read that book and he said, could we meet? And so we went and got coffee and he said, um, I'm not this. I thought, you know, if I come to church, I come to church. I like you. Um, I even give some money to the church. I mean, we're not super involved. Um, but to be surrendered, he goes, I never, I never ever understood. I never even heard that before. And, uh, so we were talking a bit more deeply. And, and so I, I asked him, I said, well, have you ever done that?
Chip Ingram:
Have you ever told God? Not just that I believe you for my salvation, but, but I've really, I want to follow you wholeheartedly. I mean, this isn't how you get saved, but this is the Lordship of Christ. And he goes, yes, I have. And I said, well, when did you do that? He goes, Oh, about three days ago. When I read, when I read your book, I said, great. And so then he goes, and then his next one was, the next chapters are about renewing your mind. It's Romans 12 two. And he said, I, uh, you know, we, we got together about once a month then. And he's, you know, treating me for all my injuries. And I'll never forget. He started where, because he's a pretty disciplined guy. He started reading the book every morning. After about two, three months, he said, do you understand the difference between being a Christian who shows up at a meeting on the weekend and a word centered Christian?
Chip Ingram:
He goes, I thought I was fine. I thought I was doing great. He goes, I've been reading. The Bible goes man alive. I was so off. Here's it? I didn't know it. And I was deceived. And I mean, the change in his life, the change in his marriage, the change in his kids, it led him to actually take another job in another way. And I just think we have a huge percent of the population of very sincere, who God loves very, very much that just don't know the difference between passive faith. I go to church trying to be a good person, got my kids off at the youth group. I might even tie. Um, I, I think I'm a little bit nicer than most people. I, you know, I let people in, in traffic, uh, but that's different than Christ is the center and the Lord of my life. I'm renewing my mind. I'm in authentic community. I'm, I'm, I'm a part of God's radical agenda to bring light and love to the world, the adventure, I think that people are looking for, uh, that's where you find it. Yeah, that's great. That's great.
Allen White:
Hey, one last question. Before we go, what elements do you see are essential in a climate of life?
Chip Ingram:
We have a little acronym that, uh, where I work here at living on the edge called bio B I O and the B is for before God, I, I believe life change. It's got, God changes you. And so I encourage people to be before God daily and be before God corporately with other people. There's something that happens in the teaching of his word and worship. The I in bio is, um, in community and that you can't do it alone. It's impossible to live the Christian life on your own. And yes, it's a small group, but it's more than that. It's heart face to face, authentic authenticity. And then the O is on mission. So we talk about before God daily in community weekly and on mission 24 seven, where you just have this concept of I'm a servant of the living God, as I pull out the driveway, I'm a servant of the living God with my roommate or my wife or my husband, God, what do you want to do at work?
Chip Ingram:
And then I think the last whole section of the book, there are certain things you practice bio, but there are certain aspects of development, almost besetting, sin type things that I think we all have. Some, you have to learn what it means to go into training. There's trying hard. It's going into training over time, renewing your mind around specific areas that he actually outlines in the end of the patients that develop some things that you realize I never dreamed I could overcome these things. And so I would say bio and training are probably the context for major life change. That's great.
Allen White:
That's great. Well, thank you, chip. Appreciate having you here on the podcast and the book is yes, you really can change. Get it for yourself, study it in your group, teach it to your church. And it's out April 6th. Uh, wherever books are sold. Thank you for being here.
Chip Ingram:
Super see you later.
Allen White:
Thank you for listening to the exponential groups podcast. Please rate this podcast to help others find it. Also, if you enjoy our monthly episodes, please subscribe to the podcast. So you won't miss a single one. Our guests next month is Elliot DS for managers and Fayetteville, North Carolina. That when, when he gave me the invitation, uh, it kind of started off like this. Hey, uh, Elliot would love to have you on, um, we don't just want the big name people. So I appreciate for all of you look, this is, I'm just a normal guy. Uh, just like, just like you guys are, but, um, here's, here's what happened. It was really, really interesting because we did not expect this. Elliot is an ordinary guy doing some extraordinary things. Don't miss it.