Patent Pending Made Simple

What makes a small patent firm different — and why does it matter to inventors? In this episode, attorneys Samar Shah and Jamie Brophy share a candid conversation about what it’s really like to practice at a boutique firm — and how that model benefits both attorneys and clients.

They discuss balancing family life with client deadlines, why direct access to your attorney can change your patent strategy, and how working closely with independent inventors leads to better outcomes and real impact.

Here’s what you’ll learn:
The human side of patent law — how firm culture affects client care.
Why smaller, family-friendly firms can respond faster and more personally.
Real client stories: when the right advice meant spending less, not more.
How removing “billable hour pressure” leads to more genuine guidance.
The long-term benefits of relationships built on trust, not transactions.
Why Outlier chose to serve independent inventors — and how that decision shaped its mission.

Why it matters:
For startups and inventors, choosing the right law firm isn’t just about price — it’s about partnership. A thoughtful, boutique approach can turn legal strategy into long-term success, one idea at a time.

Chapters
Chapter 1: Life at a Small Firm
Jamie shares what it’s like to balance deadlines while being sick — and why a small, family-friendly firm makes it possible to stay human in a demanding profession.

Chapter 2: Lessons from Big-Firm Life
Samar reflects on his time at a large law firm, missing his daughter’s early milestones due to trial schedules — and how that experience shaped his approach to leadership and firm culture.

Chapter 3: The Freedom to Care
Both attorneys discuss how removing strict billable-hour goals and sales metrics creates space for better client service and authentic decision-making.

Chapter 4: Real Client Wins
A story about a client who came in expecting to spend $10,000 on a utility patent — and left with a $3,500 design patent that fit their needs perfectly.

Chapter 5: The Value of Direct Access
Why working directly with experienced attorneys — not layers of sales reps or project managers — leads to better communication and strategy.

Chapter 6: Independent Inventors, Real Impact
How supporting early-stage inventors gives attorneys visible impact — and helps inventors turn ideas into tangible products.

Chapter 7: Building Trust as the True “Moat”
Samar explains why Outlier’s biggest competitive advantage isn’t data or software — it’s relationships, trust, and the accumulated wisdom shared with clients.

Chapter 8: Clients Who Care Back
Heartwarming stories of clients sending baby gifts and congratulations — proof that genuine relationships make the work worthwhile.

Chapter 9: The Bigger Picture
Why helping independent inventors strengthens not only small businesses but also innovation, community, and the economy itself.

Chapter 10: Key Takeaways & Closing Thoughts
A reflection on why a smaller, mission-driven firm can offer both attorneys and clients something larger firms can’t: empathy, accessibility, and meaningful impact.

What is Patent Pending Made Simple?

Patent Pending Made Simple is a podcast for inventors who are looking to learn more about the patent process

 Hello and welcome to the Patent Pending Made Simple podcast. I'm your host Samar Shah, and with me is Jamie Brophy. Jamie, how are you? Hey, Samar. I am doing okay. It's been a little bit of a rough week, to be honest. I've been sick, as you know, so I've been a little stressed about getting work done and having trouble getting work done.

So yeah, it's been a little bit of a rough week. I'm hoping we can keep today short 'cause you know, I'm still not feeling great. But how are you doing? Oh man. I'm doing all right. Much better in comparison. Yeah, I can't believe actually how much work you did get managed to get done while being sick. I'm a total baby about it.

I wouldn't get anything done and I would just hop on here and complain about how I felt. So you're much, much better off than I am. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's times like this that I appreciate working for such a small family friendly firm because I had a situation this week where I have a big deadline coming up.

We have an application we have to get filed, and I really needed to meet with the client, but I just couldn't, like my cough was too bad. I just was not able to really talk on the phone or video chat. I was able to message you and ask you to hop in, which you were more than willing to do. So it just makes me appreciative of working for a small firm.

I've worked for bigger firms before where that wasn't the case. You know, the partners didn't care that I was sick. They were like, oh, sorry, you're sick. We have a deadline. So it's made me really grateful to be working here and made me really appreciate the benefits of working for a small firm. And like I said.

A family friendly firm, so thanks for hopping in and helping me out anytime. Anytime. You know, I wish I could say that I helped a bunch, but I think I only helped facilitate a few things. You were still on those calls and working with the clients, it was really quite amazing. But still, I appreciate you acknowledging that.

I have a similar story. I used to work at a large firm as well, and one of the big drivers for me leaving was when my daughter was born. And her birth coincided with a trial that I had to go to. It was like a four week trial in Denver, and the trial date was set for the same week that my daughter was supposed to be born.

And everybody was pretty nervous about it, right? Because they're like, oh, it's gonna happen, you know? And the partners all came in my office and they were like, well, you know. Our team. Nobody has taken the full paternity leave that they get, and I was like, oh my gosh. Message. I was like, I wasn't planning on it, but I don't know if it's all under my control either.

Yeah, my daughter was born four weeks early and there were some complications around that. Everybody was actually very supportive and nice about it. I ended up taking a couple of days off here and there like every couple of weeks, and then I had to go. To trial and I went, I was gone for about four weeks.

My wife really didn't appreciate that. Yeah. Almost five weeks and yeah. You know, we had a, some. Difficulties, medical issues with my daughter. So it was tough, tough all around and everyone was supportive, but everybody was also like, we need you and we want you to work. Right? Like that was kind of the expectation.

And even if I was able to take some time off, I just felt totally very guilty about it, you know, like I just felt like I was letting my team down. Like, uh, trials are a lot of work and took us a couple years to build up the case to get there. So like, you know, just. It didn't feel good all around. Right.

And that was kind of the genesis of where I was like, well maybe I need to do something else. This is may not work out with throwing a family and being there for my family and that kind of thing. So I have always been pretty cognizant of that. 'cause it's not just about being able to take the time off when you need it, but it's also about not feeling guilty for doing so.

Right. And that's what I've always kind of indexed on because there's just so much like social pressure that kind of can come into play even when you have. The opportunity to take leave, so I'm glad. Glad you didn't feel that pressure, Jamie. Yeah, absolutely. Oh my gosh, that sounds like such a stressful time, like having your first baby and having a big trial all going on at the same time, like I can't imagine that would be so stressful.

But it's funny that you mentioned that because that was kind of my impetus for leaving a big firm as well, or a bigger firm. It wasn't a large firm. It was still a patent boutique, but it was bigger than this firm. And after I had my third child, my husband and I were both working full time and with three kids and all the daycare expenses and everything, I was like, I'm gonna take an extended maternity leave.

I'm taking 18 months off. And they were really not happy with me about that. And then after about six months I was like, I'll come back, but I'll come back on a, like a consulting basis, like a on a contract basis. And they were fine with that. And then, you know, that way I also got to kind of. Pick and choose the work that I wanted to do and how much work I wanted to do.

So that worked out great for me when my kids were younger. But yeah, I mean this working here has been great for me and working out well for our family. So yeah, I think there's not only benefits to us working with a smaller firm. There's only a handful of us and we all kind of know what's going on in each other's lives and stuff like that.

But I think there are benefits to our clients as well, don't you think? So Samar, I agree with. That. I mean, certainly the firm supports our lifestyles and our families, but in turn, it allows us to support our clients and our customers. Right? We hardly ever talk about this because like so much of this has become like buzzwords and like every firm says that they care about their customers.

You know, like it's hard, hard to make the same claim and be perceived as being genuine about it, but. I think that genuinely does translate into how we practice and how we work with our customers. 'cause at a big firm, our like, yeah, customer care everybody says is important, but it's just as important as meeting your billable hours, right?

As going up the corporate ladder, as all sorts of other things that you have to do at a big firm that are sometimes prioritized and emphasized over customer service. Whereas we in many ways just done away with that. Right. There are no other metrics for you to meet other than taking really good care of your customers.

And I think that makes sense. 'cause like I've seen this, right? Where there's so many clients where we're like, Hey, we recommend you don't spend any money on this thing at this point. Right? Even though like it reduces our revenue as a firm, but it does allow us to have that kind of care and effort, right?

We're not. Fully stressed out about generating revenue for the law firm, then we can actually focus on doing what's right by the client. Right? So removing some of those pressures, if you will, of uh, a big firm that are often associated with a big firm allows us to care for customers in a very genuine way that I don't think many firms support, I don't think.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I would agree with that. You know, I think a lot of our clients, especially our independent inventor. Small startup clients are very budget conscious, so, and we're aware of that. We don't, you know, we try to help them kind of pick and choose where they're gonna spend their limited resources and yeah, you're right.

I've told them, I've heard you tell them this is probably not a great, I. Place to be spending your money right now. We, you know, we recommend that you hold off on this or whatever. The other thing that I like about that I think is beneficial to our clients is like my clients, the clients that I work with, they contact me.

They'll always be able to get ahold of me. They'll always be dealing with me. I mean, we work as a team. As was very clear this week when you had to jump in and help me with some of those meetings. But we work as a team, but my client is not getting passed around to different attorneys at the firm, and they'll always be dealing with me.

So I think that's a benefit as well. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I think so. It's very interesting 'cause like that's also like a lip service in some ways, right? Every firm also says that you'll work with like experienced attorneys. But to me what that really means is that we spend time learning about the business, right?

Learning about the objectives that the client has, the challenges, and the hardships that they face, the journey that they're on, right? A really deep and innate understanding of what our clients are going through, which allows us to problem solve for them in a way that makes sense for them. Right? So like if there is like a client could say, I wanna reduce costs, but like if you don't really know exactly what.

Is happening on the business side or what's happening with their product. You could end up cutting costs in the wrong places, right? Like just for the sake of cutting costs. But if you genuinely know what the customers, where they are in their product journey or in their invention journey, you can find the right places to cut costs, right?

And still build a meaningful strategic patent portfolio or a patent application for them. So I think that's exactly right, Eric. About working with the client, but also developing a relationship in a meaningful way that would allow you to really craft your patent strategy according to their objectives and their needs at that given time.

And then also projecting out, right, because we've seen what happens with clients from an exceptional perspective and also from a median perspective, and thinking up through. Like, yes, they have the money and the budget for this thing today, but we know it's gonna weigh heavily on you two or three years from now.

Right. And potentially feel like, and so helping them avoid that and and caring for them at that level, right. Where we're not just looking out for your interest today, but we're trying to look out for your interest through three, five years from today as well. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I mean, I think there's benefits to us.

There's benefits to our clients. So yeah, I think we've. Covered pretty much everything. And do you have anything else to add? Samar? Yeah. You know, I'll have one more thing to add or maybe two more things to add. I'll just to give every listeners a more tangible example. I was on a sales call with a prospective client yesterday, and they had called around a few different firms and they had only spoken to like a representative of the firm, like a secretary or a salesperson, and they were like, yeah, I need this utility patent for my thing.

And everybody's telling me I need about. $10,000 for this thing and I'm kind of stressed out about it 'cause that's a lot of money. And I was like, well, tell me a little bit about your invention. And we talked about it and I was like, you don't need a utility patent. You need a design patent. You know, which costs like we charge $3,500 for it.

So it's a third of the cost of a utility patent. He was just so relieved. He was like, oh my gosh. Like he's like, you're the first firm I spoke to where I actually spoke to an attorney. The fact that I need a design patent just like relieves that stress so much, you know? He was like so thankful and appreciative.

I was like, yeah, like, yeah, absolutely happy to help, but that's how you translate that meaningful, like that one-on-one connection and being able to interface with the client directly into like actual tangible benefits. That the client receive. Right. As opposed to having a salesperson or project management intermediary, right.

That you have to work your way through to get to the actual attorney. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I frequently have sales calls like that where they've, you know, contacted a bunch of different firms and they're kind of comparing the information we give them to the information they've gotten from other firms.

They're usually like, wow, this was really helpful. Thanks for all the info. And you know, we're able to ask some of those, so some of those deeper questions about their invention and kind of where they're at in the process and stuff like that. And with having a deeper understanding of the patent process, and we can kind of point them in the right direction of what their next steps should be.

So yeah, I have, I have calls like that pretty often. It feels pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Whenever I talk to clients, especially if you've spoken to them, Jamie, or when we like randomly receive a review from somebody and they all say that, Hey, I learned so much from like just a 20 minute, 30 minute call with this firm than I did from 10 hours of internet research or whatever it is, I think.

It really does translate. The other anecdote here is that we forwarded testimonial videos for our law firm in our YouTube page. A little while ago, I had invited like six or seven clients to our office and they were gracious enough to be like, yeah, I'll take 30 minutes, an hour outta my day to drive to your office and let people record me and share my experiences.

So it was awesome. I was, um. Very humbled that they agreed to do that. 'cause they're all very busy executives at busy companies. I was expecting them to come on and just say, Hey, all the technology and the strategy and the analytics tools that outlier uses is just like heads and shoulders above everything else.

But they didn't really mention that at all. Right. Which was kind of a eye-opener to me. Every single person in that testimonial was like, well. The best part about outlier is working with the team, the attorneys of the firm. We just felt like our needs were heard. We felt like our needs were taken care of, that somebody was in our corner looking out for us and thinking ahead two steps ahead of where we are today and helping us avoid all these things.

And every time we asked them in the testimonial, we're like, Hey, what's your favorite part? You know the best part about working with outlier? And they were always like. Well, it's the people and the interactions with the practitioners there. And to me, I was just like a total eye-opening moment, right?

Because like we invest a lot of time, money, and energy into software and analytics and data. And at the end of the day, those things help us do our job. But what makes the difference to the client is the customer support and the personalized support that they get from us. That's probably very hard to come by elsewhere.

Well, that's so nice. Yeah. That's so true. It makes us feel so good. But I mean, I think it makes a lot of sense too. I mean, with independent inventors, like it's really hard to develop a new product and get it on the market. A patent is a small part of what you need to do to make that happen, and so like having good people on your team is invaluable.

So I think it makes a lot of sense. That's what they're talking about. Yeah, I agree. The last thing I will say this, uh, or I'll say here, Jamie, is why when I started the firm, a lot of like analysts or business strategists were like, well, don't work with independent inventors, because that's a very difficult group to work with, right?

They're usually very budget conscious, so they'll bring your margins down. They're very needy customer like, you need to invest a lot in customer support, blah, blah, blah, right? There's all these reasons not to work with independent inventors, but to work with. Larger corporations, but we do work with independent inventors and it's been so great.

Right? The experience has been really nice because, at least from my perspective with corporations, you build patents and you can build amazing portfolios, but you don't really know how it's gonna affect the bottom line of the company, right? There's not a one-to-one correlation between the work that you do and the revenue.

That your client generates, right? Or the outcome that your client is able to obtain. There's like a lot of factors that go into that, into that mix. Patents being one of them. But when we work with independent inventors, it's one-to-one. Do the work and you see the outcome, right? And the benefit that it has for your customers right away, or not right away, but you see it.

Whether it helps them positively or negatively. And to me, that has been really fun to see and really great to experience. And my philosophy has always been that. We can grow our economies and ourselves by working on projects like these, right? Like small businesses and startups that start with a kernel of an idea and grow it into something more.

Uh, and it's a great way to enjoy the freedom that you and I experienced, Jamie working at this firm relative to our previous experiences. But that freedom and that. Creativity and that care and attention to detail can translate to our clients, right? And they can build products that they're passionate about, and then they can hire people who are passionate about the same things and so on and so forth, right?

And our world kind of. Gets a little bit better, right? Everybody earns a little bit more wealth, earns a little bit more freedom, earns a little bit more independence. To me, it's kind of a great way to contribute to the world, right? And to to our economy. So that's been really, really fun for me on a more philosophical level as well.

Absolutely. I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head when you're working on patent portfolios of like bigger companies or corporations. It's hard to feel like you're making a difference. Like, oh, we made this one little change to this product and we need a patent on this one. Little change. And so it's hard to feel like you're really making a difference, whereas, yeah, I think you're right with working with independent inventors, you actually get to see the difference that you're making.

So. So, yeah, it's not like working with bigger firms, bigger corporations, where it's just everybody's all about their bottom line and pumping out the work and working here and working with independent inventors. You really can see the fruits of your labor. You really can see that you're helping and making a difference.

So yeah, it is fun. It is. It does feel good. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And to all the business analysts. Told me back in the day not to work with independent inventors. They're like, yo, there's no moat here. And I'll say this, that our moat is actually the relationships, right, that we have developed over time. There are so many clients who are like, yeah, I would never work with another patent attorney ever again for the rest of your life.

For the rest of my life. And that's amazing, right? That is. Right, and that's stronger than any kind of data analytics mode or a data-driven mode that you can build around your business. It's kind of the accumulated wisdom that we have cultivated. It's the trust that we have cultivated with our clients stuff is that's a really.

Difficult barrier for a competitor to break in. Not that we ever think about it that way, but like if I were to put my kind of business strategist hat on, I would say that's one of the strongest votes that we have. So yeah, it's been really fun. I know we're running a little long and I know you're not feeling great, Jamie, so I'll close with this, right?

I started with this story about going on paternity leave and going on trial at my previous firm, and then I started this firm outlier. And I had my second born. Once again, I had to make a decision about taking time off and I decided I was gonna do it right, because that's what the firm affords you. And I emailed my clients.

I said, Hey, I'm gonna be gone for about four weeks. Just let me know if you need anything. Not a single person said, oh, what about my project? Right? Like, is it gonna be delayed too much? They were, everybody emailed back and just were like, congratulations. We were looking forward. Send us pictures of the baby.

There were a couple of clients who sent me a. A onesie for, for the baby, right. With, with his name on it. Clients sent me like parenting books. Clients sent me a bib, you know, like all sorts of stuff. And I was like, this is furthest from what I experienced the previous time. Right. At the big firm, we take a lot of care and effort of our clients, but our clients take a lot of care and effort of us, and it's been a, just a totally wonderful journey.

Yeah. Aw, that's so nice. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Well, really amazed. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been, this has been great. I didn't intend for it to be like a giant outlier commercial, but I said, Hey, Samar, I've been sick this week, so let's keep it short and let's talk about that. So, but yeah, this has been great.

Now I have all the feels. There we go. Yes. Yeah, we can head into the weekend feeling good about what we do. Yeah, absolutely. All right, well this has been great. Thank you so much, Samar. I'll talk to you next time. Yes, thanks Jamie, and hope you feel better. Thank you. The Patent Strategy Podcast is recorded for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, business, or professional advice.

We are not responsible for any loss, damages, or liability that may arise from the use of this podcast. The podcast is not intended to replace professional legal advice and should not be treated as such. The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host for the management.