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A podcast for fundraisers who want ideas, examples and inspiration to help you raise more money for your charity or non-profit.
Rob is an author and award-winning fundraising trainer. Each week he and his guests share examples of successful fundraising, as well as lots of practical tips to help you apply these techniques in your own job.
Hi. It's Rob. Welcome to the Fundraising Bright Spots Podcast. Now if you work in high value fundraising, whether with major donors or corporate partners or with trust and foundations, or if you just like a mindset shift that helps you cut loose and really make the most of your opportunities, I think you're going to love this one. It's with the brilliant Chris Murphy, who is director of fundraising at The UK cancer charity Maggie's.
Speaker 1:And it's about taking risks, embracing the challenge and the mindset that makes it easier to grow fundraising income.
Speaker 2:Okay so there are five ideas Rob that I suppose I've come to describe as values, maybe they're just traits, behaviours, I'm not quite sure what they are. That actually whenever I've needed to take a step back and sort of reflect on how things are going, I thought you know these are five sort of core pillars that I sort of need. I'd written to someone asking for a meeting and she basically said I'm too busy to meet but I loved Birkbeck, can you just tell me what you need from me? That's quite an interesting email to get as a fundraiser because you're thinking gosh well where on earth do I go with this? Which led to I think it was a £50,000 gift at the time and I know she's gone on to give a huge amount more than that.
Speaker 2:So I suppose I'm just really pleased that, you know, I didn't include some of the lower options that I might have done had I been a bit more conservative. I really welcome giving space for people to input and to make mistakes and get things wrong and it's basically inviting people to ask for forgiveness rather than permission. And I think giving people a bit of license to be creative in my experience just leads to more interesting things happening.
Speaker 1:Hi, Chris. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Hi, Rob. Great to be here. Thank you.
Speaker 1:So I've been looking forward to our chat. We've had some interesting conversations over the years now and again. And I was really keen to talk to you because I think your approach, I guess we could say your philosophy on fundraising is a little different to quite a few other leaders I've interviewed, and I think there's some really interesting themes there that will help our listeners. Before we get into the key ideas, could you give us a really potted history? I know that you're at Maggie's now as director of fundraising.
Speaker 1:But really briefly, where have you been before?
Speaker 2:So I started my career recruiting fundraisers across the higher education, arts and culture and charity sectors, went from there to the National Theatre with a sort of patrons, major gifts portfolio, to be head of membership ultimately, and then got the opportunity to go to Birkbeck, is part of the University of London, an amazing university with a really strong social mission that appealed and had seven and a half, eight really happy years at Birkbeck before I got the chance to go back to the National Theatre as as director of development, a job which I did for five years and then became director of strategy when we had a new executive director come in. And then yes, you're right, more recently, I have fundraising director at Maggie's, which is an amazing charity close to my heart. My dad used the Newcastle Centre and we've 27 Maggie's around the country that support people with cancer and their families.
Speaker 1:Great, so really interesting career. And I know that you've been honing these ideas on the job as a fundraiser and as a leader for many years. I do remember we had a conversation when you were at Birkbeck, and I was really interested both in the the step change that was going on there in the income that Birkbeck was bringing in, but and also a couple of the ideas in in your approach to how that was happening. And I also know that there was some wonderful results at the National Theatre. Maybe we don't need all the details, but could you really top line have I got it right that there was an uplift at both those places?
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's absolutely right. It's I suppose, to some extent, both at different ends of the fundraising maturity spectrum in that Birkbeck when I joined, had a fundraising department, but was a very small team and weren't used to sort of bigger gifts, so there was a lot of scope there to grow things, invest, and had a really transformational impact on the money raised at Birkbeck. National Theatre has really grown consistently from about £13,000,000 a year when I went back there in 2019, and I think, you know, I think they're in the final stages of a £125,000,000 campaign at the moment. So the growth they've seen there has been really marked and obviously that goes way beyond my influence, but it's a very mature fundraising operation there.
Speaker 1:And absolutely, the interesting thing about all these interviews I've been doing for many years to try and understand some insights or principles or techniques that make a difference. There's always other factors that are contributing to when growth or success is achieved. And yet, I have observed over many years that success, and certainly consistent success does tend to leave clues. And if we're curious about those, then it really is an interesting way to then ourselves go and test out whether those principles or ideas can work in other contexts as well. So with that in mind, if there were a few ideas that that actually sum up your approach, I'd love for our listeners to be able to hear those.
Speaker 1:What's the first one?
Speaker 2:Okay. So there are five ideas, Rob, that I suppose I've I've come to describe as values. Maybe they're just traits, behaviors. I'm not quite sure what they are. That actually, whenever I've needed to take a step back and sort of reflect on how things are going, I thought, know, these are five sort of core pillars that I sort of need, and they started when I was at Birkbeck.
Speaker 2:I had, you know, I had a fairly blank piece of paper in front of me there, and therefore that gave me the chance to sort of shape things in the way that I wanted, And I wasn't sure if they would translate to other organizations, but they have to. The first one is risk taking, which I suppose means different things in different contexts in my world. You know, there's a in the art of fundraising, the act of fundraising, it can relate to the asks that we make, trying new income streams, our approach to corporate partnerships, how we recruit. So I think it's been something that has been really important to me. Part of me feels that just, you know, if we do the same things again and again, we'll get very similar results.
Speaker 2:That's not a revelation from me. Whereas if I think right back to the start of my Birkbeck journey and I was a green fundraiser, at that stage, I didn't really know what I was doing. Was they'd put a lot of trust in giving me the job there. There was this brilliant moment early on where I'd written to someone asking for a meeting, and she basically said, I'm too busy to meet, but I loved Birkbeck. Can you just tell me what you need from me?
Speaker 2:That's quite an interesting email to get fundraiser because you're thinking, gosh, well, where on earth do I go with this? You know, I had a sense of her capacity to support, but actually not loads of information because there wasn't loads in the public domain. And I basically, you know, after a bit of consultation with the team, took the bolder option of the the ones that we were considering, which led to a I think it was a £50,000 gift at the time, which for Birkbeck was a a really significant amount to get from one of our alumni. And I think in that moment, it had an impact on colleagues there as well, because actually they saw, oh hang on, we can get sort of mid 5 figure gifts here and maybe we can get even more in future, and what's brilliant to see is even now when I get the alumni magazine, this person still being featured in there as a generous donor, and I know she's gone on to give a huge amount more than that. So I suppose I'm just really pleased that I didn't include some of the lower options that I might have done had I been a bit more conservative, and you know, I'd heard so many people say at fundraising talks, you don't offend people by asking for too much, and it was sort of good to feel actually that also that played out in real life.
Speaker 2:This donor was super, and I mean, now I must have had a fifteen year relationship with Birkbeck on the back of all of that. So it's it's it was important for that relationship singularly, but it also gave us huge confidence as a team to be to be more ambitious.
Speaker 1:Are there any other ways if I dropped by in those Birkbeck days, I'd have seen this approach to risk happening in how your team operated.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think my sort of background in recruitment right at the start of my career, Rob, sort of opened my mind to looking at people with transferable skills and maybe nontraditional backgrounds. And there were definitely examples actually both at Birkbeck and at the National Theatre, Birkbeck in the corporate space where we had someone who sort of saw the world through a slightly different lens in a very positive way. Then at the NT where we took someone that had never been a fundraiser before, but came with maturity and experience and a skill set that translated really nicely to major gift fundraising. And I just think both of those, both individually in the strands of their jobs and more broadly culturally within a team environment had a really positive impact.
Speaker 2:That sort of stretched people and made people think differently. And I I I think I've always been open to taking risks in in recruitment rather than playing it too safe.
Speaker 1:That makes sense. And I think probably there's people vary, don't they? Some some, for whatever reason, do act in more bold ways, and others spend a lot of time avoiding or certainly minimizing risk. But if you're a leader and you're doing your best to help everyone be bolder Mhmm. What what have you learned about how one helps a team culture do that?
Speaker 2:There's something about just leading by example, Rob, so that people see you model some of this work, and they are therefore more likely to do it. Know, at Maggie's I've got a team of about 80 people around the country, and we've recently set up some working groups where we'll focus on three different things, so I'm slightly pulling people away from their day jobs and their job description to think more broadly, partly because I think that will produce some interesting outputs of these working groups around innovation, AI, that type of thing, but also partly because actually I just want people to think in a lateral creative way. So in sort of setting things like that up and behaving in the way that I do, I hope that I'm modeling that type of thing. And I think I would challenge my teams and probably listeners more broadly to step back and just think about whether there's enough risk and opportunity in their day to day work. And that might look like what they're doing in the office, it might look like their own personal development.
Speaker 2:There's things like being a Samaritans volunteer where I was outside of my comfort zone running a marathon. There's things like that that might represent risk in a different way to listeners as well.
Speaker 1:So I think what I'm learning is risk doesn't have to be something with lots of zeros on or go take your strategy in entirely different direction without much research or thought. The theme I'm hearing from all of these examples is ultimately be aware that we all have a a kind of a comfort zone. And if each day or each week we're conscious of it and willing to, in whatever way, do some things that don't feel entirely comfortable Mhmm. Whilst not exposing our organization to undue big risk, that's really what you're driving at.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think that's exactly it. Because you never know. One or two of them might just come off in a really dramatic way. So that's that's what I'm looking for in in the teams that I lead, Rob.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Okay. So that's the first one. What's the next idea?
Speaker 2:Expertise is the second one. These will all ultimately spell a word, Rob. But expertise for me means I suppose it means sort of hard work and graft and having a growth mentality and and that manifests in different ways. I think that's something that, you know, I grew up with watching my dad as a teacher, my mom as a nurse, working incredibly hard in their jobs that they were doing. And I think that's sort of always come into the way that I've approached my life.
Speaker 2:It was funny when I first joined the National Theatre as a fundraiser, my first fundraising job, this was 2008, my boss at the time said, there's loads of people here that know a lot about theatre, I really need you to be asking people for money though, because I'd basically gone in and said, listen, I've seen Billy Elliot and not much more, I'm not sure. I've got the sort of knowledge of theatre that plays like this deserves and its fundraisers. And she was brilliant because she said to me, yeah, don't worry about that whatsoever, just get out there and have conversations and be yourself and talk to people about the fundraising side of things. So what I had to do was actually go away and be quite rigorous and say, okay, right, well, I'm gonna learn three things about every show that I know I can talk about if pushed. So in the time, there's sort of 21, 22 shows a year at the National Theatre, so there's a real rigor to giving myself the foundations, I suppose, to being able to talk about the director or a particular actor or the way that it was staged or the process that had gone into creating the show and how it had come about.
Speaker 2:That preparation, that sort of, I don't know, in a sports world, it would be a sort of preseason fitness training, I think, I just found was so important. And it would have been really easy not to do that and sort of just get on having meetings and get on doing the doing. But I think that is a really good representation, I think, as I look back on how important I think that solid foundation is and being a basis for then the flare and the creativity and the art that can sit above it as a fundraiser. I think, you know, it's funny actually, it always makes me laugh when people say, you don't know what you don't know, and obviously there's worlds in which that's true, but actually, often you do know what you don't know, and you just don't actually prioritize doing anything about it. And I knew that I didn't know enough about theater at that point because I just hadn't grown up with it, it wasn't my background, So I had to work really hard to do that.
Speaker 2:And often that work is is hard to do, hard to fit into a to a busy diary, but it's it's so important and ultimately makes you a better a better fundraiser.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I couldn't agree more, Chris. I wonder if you could say a tiny bit more about how to actually achieve this in practice.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Okay. Maybe I'll give you two examples. One from my time at Birkbeck and one at the National Theatre. At Birkbeck, again, because we were a lot of us were new to sort of major gift fundraising and having these bigger conversations, but we're hearing lots about, you know, the importance of storytelling and the importance of stories in fundraising.
Speaker 2:We invested a lot of time in sort of role playing conversations to sort of sit with your colleagues in a room and practice being in in these situations with donors and having people ask challenging questions and say things that you might not want them to say in the moment. The idea there was that you make your mistakes in those safe spaces, and actually, I am absolutely adamant that that made us all better fundraisers doing those types of conversations, some of them individual, some them corporate focused. And, also sort of being vulnerable in front of colleagues is a is a really good thing. And it was funny, there's a really lovely video on YouTube still of a Birkbeck donor who's talking about why she gave, and she talks about the stories that she was told by me and the other fundraisers of Birkbeck as bringing it all to life, and it sort of totally vindicated the the hard yards that we put in in those storytelling and and role play conversations. So that was that was at Birkbeck.
Speaker 1:And I think there
Speaker 2:there's a national theater example that also jumps out, I suppose, of is this expertise? Is it yeah. It's sort of expertise. It's hard work. It's being dedicated to what you're trying to do, I suppose.
Speaker 2:There was a donor that we knew we wanted to get to, but we'd never found a way to to do so, unlike another organization in this country who'd been very successful with them. And I noticed that the fundraising director of of that organization was gonna be attending a Mage Gifts conference in a few weeks time and thought, well, actually, you know, this is probably the best chance I'm going get to speak to someone that knows this donor inside out, where I really feel there is the potential of this person supporting the NT. So I, with my head of Mage Gifts at the time, went along to this conference, It was a day long thing. And in one of the coffee breaks, used it as an opportunity to to have a really open, really straightforward conversation with with this colleague in the sector who was brilliant and was was very supportive and understanding. And that was probably I don't know.
Speaker 2:It's probably six, eight minutes discussion with her really gave us the platform, gave us the confidence to sort of know what we were doing and how we might make the approach. And again, it's brilliant. Now, obviously, was director of fundraising at the ENT, but then director of strategy where I was sort of less involved in the day to day, so watching from arm's length and now at Maggie's, it's just brilliant from afar seeing that relationship continue to blossom. I think that's the best value of any conference anyone ENT has ever attended potentially in terms of what it's helped open up. So I think it's spotting those opportunities and being determined enough to go for them.
Speaker 2:And then I think reading plays into all of this, doesn't it? There's books that I've read over the years that have been recommended from actually from podcasts like yours, Rob, that I've listened to, books like Good to Grey, like How to Win Friends and Influence People that contain really good nuggets that sort of help you be an expert in your field and I think a lot of the stuff certainly in those two books is really relevant to fundraising.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Chris, it's it's such a good point. I think there's lots of advantages about modern technology and social media and all, but I think we can't ignore that it does cause our attention spans to potentially be shorter and for us to potentially want to expect a result quicker, you know, within twenty seconds or a two minute video, whereas I still firmly believe that going deep into a thing like a book or a a full course or conference can make a much bigger difference than we might be aware and is is necessarily the norm now. So we've got a risk taking and expertise. What's the next one in your acronym?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'll go a little bit quicker on the next two, Robert. Accountability is the next one. So I suppose I I see accountability as an invitation to all colleagues, matter what their job title, age, level of expertise, to have a view and to input into pieces of work. I really welcome giving space for people to input and to make mistakes and get things wrong, and it's basically inviting people to ask for forgiveness rather than permission.
Speaker 2:And I think giving people a bit of license to be creative, in my experience, just leads to more interesting things happening and better events and more creative asks and different types of proposals that are maybe a bit more eye catching.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Makes absolute sense. Always always be really conscious about doing that and sending clear signals of just how valuable it it is for all of us. So we've got risk taking expertise, accountability. What's the next?
Speaker 2:So challenge is the next. I really like this one in the sense that I've worked in lots of organisations where you hear people be frustrated maybe with bosses and not feel like they've got a voice, and to some extent I think it's just that the environment hasn't been created in which they feel they can speak up and say what they really feel and what they want to say, and in having challenge in naming this as part of your sort of behaviors that you're looking for, your values, I think you're basically giving people to say, well, listen, I hear what you're saying, Chris or Sarah or Johnny, but actually in the spirit of challenge, can I ask why we wouldn't do it this way? Or is that not a more complicated approach than it might need to be? And I think in articulating it as a value that you want to see in your team, you're basically giving people permission to push back, and I think that creates a healthier culture, a healthier environment where probably there's a bit less water cooler moaning and backstabbing and that type of thing, because actually people feel they can have a view either one to one with people or in a team environment.
Speaker 2:So I really welcome challenge, and I think how you do it and how you give feedback is a really important part of culture within an organization. So I probably haven't always got it right. I'm sure I haven't, but it's an important part of my approach to leadership certainly.
Speaker 1:Yeah. On this one, I've noticed that one has to consistently send that message and that one could be a new leader, be doing one's best to genuinely welcome that
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But be a little frustrated if if three weeks later, people are still not quite actually doing it in practice. And what I've observed is it may have been a big blow up, a big event when someone got into trouble for for appearing to challenge authority, or maybe consistently over a long period of time, there's been a a culture where that wasn't well received, and it can take a while for people to relearn Mhmm. And and understand that you genuinely do mean it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think that's right. And and there's a fine balance in the middle there, Robert, you know, just because someone challenges doesn't mean you sort of do the thing that they're proposing or that's the right the right answer. So you don't know it's not about always getting what you want or what you think is best, but it's about helping people be listened to. And I I would agree with you, Robert.
Speaker 2:These cultural practices take a long time to shift and move. So I think that plays into why it's important that fundraisers fundraising leaders stay in their jobs for long enough to make a difference because I think this doesn't happen overnight, far from it, but it's where the best, ultimately the best work happens, and you as a leader, I as a leader need to acknowledge that absolutely we don't know all the answers and actually the thing that we were proposing might not be the best the best thing or the best way of doing something. So ultimately, it's strengthening our our approach to whatever it is we're talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I I think this was all true ten years ago, but, oh my goodness, it has to be ever truer now in a world that's changing so fast for lots of political and economic and other reasons. As fast as everything's changing, our teams who are probably closer to the donors or potential donors and what's going on for them Mhmm. They're bound to have lots of insights that people who are the leaders but maybe not out having those conversations so much, there's bound to be all kinds of ideas to keep improving and changing and adapting that are essential. So I think it's for those reasons among others as as well as really helping a team feel truly empowered and appreciated.
Speaker 1:My goodness. It's not, in some charities, not the easiest, but it has to be a valuable thing to solve. So I've got risk taking expertise accountability challenge. And what's the last of your ideas?
Speaker 2:So the last one is high standards, Rob. So the word is reach, inspired by S Club seven potentially. High standards is sort of a non negotiable for me to be honest. My first boss, Richmond Associates, Myra Doyle, was brilliant, she talks about being serious about our work but light about ourselves, and I think that balance is a lovely one. And there was one moment she was definitely serious about our work, and I remember going back to the office late one night to reprint something and rebind documents because of a sloppy typo that I'd left in.
Speaker 2:And I think drumming those high standards into me at that point was a really brilliant thing, and it's all built on, you know, my dad sitting down doing interview practice with me and I was very lucky to have that awful, but if you can do it in front of your dad, can do it in front of a recruiter. So I think it's sort of, to some extent, sort of boring stuff like our grammar and our writing style and our rigor and follow-up, but all of that is important. You know, the the rules around how quickly you reply to an email or pick up the phone or cash a check, and do you write notes after you've had a meeting and circulate them to the right people. I think if you don't do those things, if you slip a little, then you end up slipping a lot, and it it's back to that sort of what you model other people follow, isn't it, Rob? So I think if if you're not sort of holding yourself to high standards, then, then why would other managers of of of their teams?
Speaker 2:So, again, it's maybe it's is it a bit dated to say it really matters how people dress? I think it sort of does. I think that first impression does matter with donors and and corporates that you're meeting. So I think all of this plays into our responsibilities to make our organizations that we work for brilliant places to to give money to. Donors know each other.
Speaker 2:You can build a reputation to be a really great place to be involved from a donor perspective or not, and I think the way that you do create a fantastic reputation and sort of play into that virtuous circle is by being serious about your work, having high standards in all aspects of it, and certainly in my role as fundraising director, you're setting the example, if you do, others will, and that plays into so many different aspects of what we do. I mentioned the Good to Great book earlier, Jim Collins book, he talks about the flywheel, doesn't he? And success doesn't necessarily come from one big breakthrough, but it comes from many small, consistent pushes in the same direction. And I think really that's that's what I'm talking about. If you sort of across the board have high standards and strong attention to detail, then you'll get the flywheel.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Hi. It's Rob. Just before we get to the final part of the conversation, if you find these podcasts useful, just imagine what's possible when we go deeper with your whole team live together. Like the podcast, our Bright Spot membership and our team training days are packed with practical examples and techniques.
Speaker 1:But because we're working with you in real time, the shift in confidence and results happens at a completely different level. To find out more, head over to brightspotfundraising.co.uk/services. And as you were giving examples of the kinds of things you mean by that, the kinds of behaviors, fundraising things that get done, I would observe that a few of them might be hard for some of us. But I think most of them on your list aren't actually that hard. It really is about a a decision that we're gonna get this done rather than, you know, some massive talent or flare for a thing.
Speaker 1:I'm reminded of a rugby coach who was famous for getting great performances out of people, and his thing was asking them to be world class at things that don't require talent. And a few of us might be blessed with a an amazing sidestep or or ability to kick a ball, for instance, but everybody can work as hard as they can at their fitness Mhmm. Yeah. And or just doing the passing drills or whatever. So I don't wanna stay in that sporting metaphor too long because I know that not all of my listeners are rugby fans.
Speaker 1:But I I do think in the context of the how that flywheel goes around quicker
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:So much of it isn't the fancy things that we might have thought it is that's gonna lead to fundraising success.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No. I would endorse all of that entirely, Rob. I think it's it's just about making the deliberate decisions to do the the hard hard work at times and being really thoughtful about where your time can be best spent.
Speaker 1:Thank you. I love it. So, Chris, thank you so much for sharing your acronym REACH. So many good ideas, insights, just slight distinctions of of ways you see all of those five ideas and and how they've worked in your fundraising and your leadership. I really appreciate you coming along to share these ideas.
Speaker 1:I look forward to staying in touch and continuing to learn from you. Until the next time, thanks for coming on the show.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Rob. Pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1:That's all, folks. Thank you as always for listening and for supporting the Fundraising Bright Spots Podcast. If you've not already subscribed to our show, please do that now so you get access to lots more examples, tips, and Bright Spot encouragement, including when we release each brand new show. Good luck with your fundraising and your leadership this week, and I look forward to sharing another Bright Spots story with you very soon.