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Lead The People is your guide to unlocking your true potential as an authentic leader. Hosted by Dr. Matt Poepsel—The Godfather of Talent Optimization—this podcast dives deep into the art and science of what it takes to lead at the next level. With insightful conversations and practical strategies, each episode equips executives, strategic HR pros, and aspiring leaders with the tools it takes to boost performance, inspire teams, and drive meaningful impact. Whether exploring the latest workplace trends or tackling real-world leadership challenges, Lead The People offers an enlightened approach to leadership. Embark on a rewarding journey to become the leader your people deserve—the leader you were meant to be.
Jill Schulman (00:00):
Whether we think we can or we think we can't, we're probably going to be right. Most people think bravery is bravado and being fearless. Absolutely wrong. The definition of bravery is voluntary action in the presence of fear toward a noble worthwhile goal. So if there's not fear, you're not being brave. So doing something scared because it matters. So if that is the definition of bravery, how do people become brave, develop the skill of bravery?
Matt Poepsel (00:40):
My very special guest helps people do hard things and love it. She's a US Marine Corps veteran leadership expert who teaches the science of bravery to help individuals and teams push past fear, unlock their potential, and lead more meaningful lives. She's the author of The Bravery Effect and a regular contributor to Psychology Today in Forbes. She is Jill Schulman. Welcome to the show, Jill.
Jill Schulman (01:00):
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be on a podcast with a fellow Marine.
Matt Poepsel (01:04):
I know, right? We must have been at one of the National Speaker Association events. You were in the audience, you had introduced yourself somehow and I was like, "Oh my gosh, she's a Marine like me. This so cool." And I knew I had to meet you. Now here we are all those months later. Having a conversation on air. How about that? Well, one of the things that I really appreciate about your journey, a little bit similar to mine where you had this Midwestern upbringing. I grew up in Missouri, but you grew up in this small town in Minnesota, but then you went on to become a Marine Corps officer, which is really inspiring that journey is. But my question for you, Jill, is what was that process like? When did you decide to put comfort and the idyllic life of Midwestern life aside and really choose discomfort because there's a lot of that where you and I come from?
Jill Schulman (01:43):
Well, I've always loved challenges. My parents thought I was crazy, thinking of it going into the military. So I applied for this scholarship. So the Marine Corps for me was very special because my grandfather was a Marine. And if I'm going to go in the service, duh, I'm going to go into the Marine Corps. And people go, why? Because it's the few, the proud, it's the hardest, that's why I want to do it. So there's a little bit of that that was just part of who I am. But really a big motivation also for me was it was my opportunity to get my college paid for. And for me to lead a career of purpose and meaning had a great upbringing. I had a great childhood and a little town in Minnesota. But the one thing that my parents taught me, which is what not to do, is they both had jobs that they did just for the money and they weren't inspired by their work.
(02:32):
And I just saw that and go, "I don't want to stay here in a small town in Minnesota and just get a job just to get a paycheck and count the days until retirement because I'm just not inspired by it. " So the Marine Corps was a ticket out of Minnesota to see the world, get my education, and then live a life of purpose. So that was my original motivation. But when I showed up in San Diego, I actually thought it would be easier than it would be because when you get these full ROTC scholarships, you've got to have your academics, you got to be reasonably smart, you've got to have a lot of leadership skills that you've demonstrated and you have to be physically fit. So I was going out to San Diego thinking like, "I got it going on. " And when I showed up to my first unit, this is the ROTC unit, I was in for an absolute shock because I didn't have a going on.
(03:27):
I was not anywhere prepared for the journey that was in front of me. And on that first day that I showed up, one of the seniors, he was about to be commissioned, he came over to me at the end of the day. And now what he said to me is fair, but he actually came over and leaned over toward the end of the day and whispered to me, which I thought was going to be a word of encouragement. But he told me, "You will never make it as a Marie." Now, I did show up in a hot pink outfit with pink polka dots thinking that I was like L from legally blonde. I probably didn't wear the right thing to make the right first impression. So that was like day one. And then a couple days later, and you're going to understand this, Matt, a couple days later we went on our first run and that's where things got really bad because I thought I was in shape.
(04:15):
Minnesota is flat, right? Southern California where I went to school, hills. And then in my unit, so in ROTC, there's some of us that are 18 years old that are starting our college journey, but there's a lot of enlisted Marines that are in a program called MESAP. So basically really successful enlisted Marines that have officer potential so they're in college. So when we go on our first run, a majority of the Marines are actually already Marines. And then there's us. And then by the way, there's only two females. The other one quit pretty quickly. So we go up for a first run and I could not keep up.
(04:51):
And you know this, it is the most shameful thing as a Marine when you can't keep up. This is where I, God, I realized I had a choice though. I didn't have to stay there. I was like, I could have quit and gone back to Minnesota where things were easy, but because earning the title of Marine really mattered, I kept showing up. And I mean, I had to keep showing up knowing that I wasn't going to be able to keep up. And it took me like two years of failing in runs before I finally started succeeding. That is some grit right there that I had to keep showing up, keep showing up. So that's kind of my journey is, yes, I've always liked a challenge, but I had no idea how hard the journey would be to earn the title of Marine. And because it was so much harder than I thought, it just made it all the more special.
Matt Poepsel (05:35):
And it's such a formative time of life. When you're shifting from home and high school, et cetera, going on to college already, it's a big transition for everybody. Now to be put into this kind of pseudo environment where you're sort of a student, but you're also sort of military and it's pretty intense on both sides of the equation, it's a lot to absorb. And I think that your response to that more senior Marines, the sort of discouragement, for example, speaks volumes about your commitment to purpose and willingness to endure the discomfort, I would say, to achieve the goal you set for yourself.
Jill Schulman (06:06):
You know what's interesting too, and I need to dig into the psychology behind this. I'm an expert in a lot of aspects of psychology, but I don't understand this 100%, but it is when someone tells me I can't, that is an incredible motivator for me. You tell me I can't do it, I'm going to be like, "Oh, just watch me. " So many people say that is such a horrible thing he did, right? And maybe he should have been more encouraging, but I'm glad he did it because on the days that I wanted to quit, that is what drove me to keep going to prove him wrong. But some people hear a comment from someone in their organization or someone in their life saying, "You can't do it, " and then they believe it. So what is the difference between when you believe it when someone says you can't do it or when someone says you can't do it and you're like, "Just watch me.
(06:51):
" That's one thing I actually want to dive in a little bit more because so many people are discouraged when someone says, "I don't think this is a good idea. I don't know if you're cut out for it. " And I want them to come back swinging instead of saying, "Oh, you're right and quit."
Matt Poepsel (07:04):
A hundred percent. Sometimes I refer to that as activation energy. It gives you that catalyst you need to really spike, say, "I'm going to show you. " And I think that that type of determination's good. My origin story in the Marines was similar. I knew that I wanted to enlist ... I shouldn't say I wanted to enlist. I knew I wanted to be a Marine from the time I was in fifth grade, but it was only once I entered my own ROTC program that I realized how unprepared I was for college life more than anything. So my ROTC time ended when I turned in a 0.7 GPA at university and they said, "Don't come back." And I said, "Okay." So I enlisted. And it was still that notion of, in this case, I wouldn't say that I felt that life was telling me that I wasn't cut out to be a Marine, but I knew that I wanted to still follow through.
(07:47):
And the Marines were the toughest. And when I showed up, I said, "Who's the toughest around here?" And they said, "Special forces." I said, great, they were doing that. I had a lot to prove to myself more than anybody else, but I think that catalyst is important. I think, Joe, it comes down to intentionality. Was he trying to stoke your fire so that you would come through or was it just he's being heard?
Jill Schulman (08:05):
I have no idea. I have no idea. And everyone asks, did you ever have a moment after you had your butter bars, your lieutenant bars on to be able to say, "I made it and I never crossed paths with him again." So I don't know. I mean, just picture me. I put a lot of thought into that outfit, thought ... I mean, he probably really thought she's just not going to make it. I mean, I think he really believed that, but who knows? Who knows?
Matt Poepsel (08:28):
We know. I also think that a lot of times in the civilian world in particular, sometimes we're hesitant to lean on people because obviously we're going through a lot right now, but it still, to me, it comes back to the relationship, the earned right, the intentionality. We can challenge people around us and make them uncomfortable if it's coming from a good place, from a them place. If you see that they're self-limiting, we shouldn't be so hesitant in my opinion to lean on people, push them, challenge them to be harder. And I think that as long as we're willing to immediately flip around and support them if they do respond, so it's nuanced for sure. If we don't earn the right and we just lean on somebody like your experience was, it really comes off as sort of more self-serving on their part. But sometimes it can go the other way and we don't challenge our teams and that sounds like a mistake too.
Jill Schulman (09:12):
Yeah. I love what you're saying because I want to just tie this into some research that made a huge impact on my life. So this is Dr. David Yeager from the University of Texas Austin. He studied under Carol Dweck, who's the one who basically did all the research on growth mindset. And what he found is that for leaders, this is for parents, this is for teachers, these are for leaders and organizations. He said, a lot of times leaders think, do I hold people to the high standard and be like, "You can do it, challenge them, right? Do we hold people to the high standard or are they nice and kind and supportive?" And what he found in his research, he goes, "So many leaders think I have to choose between being a hard ass or being kind." He goes, "It is not those two choices." He goes, "It's when you tell people that I believe that you can hit the high standard.
(10:00):
It will not be easy, but you have the potential and I'm going to support you because I believe in you in the process." So he goes, "It's the combination." He calls it in his research in the papers. He calls it the mentor mindset. I mean, really think about it. If you are on the nice side and say, "Oh, I want to be nice, but let's lower the standard for you. " That is actually not kind. It's not what's best for that person's potential and development, but then also being too far on the left where you're just saying, "Just do it. And if you don't do it, then I'm going to ... " So you don't want to be on two ends of the spectrum. And when I discovered Dr. David Yeager's research, my kids were already, I think 15 and 17. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I have been doing it wrong because I realized, this is going into parenting stuff, but I was on the left.
(10:50):
I mean, it was the Marine in me, get it done. And just like I was the high standard and hard on the girls thinking like that is the way to do it. My husband was the supportive guy without the standards. And then I realized like, oh gosh, I wish I could hit the rewind button, but it's the combination of the two. You can hold people to high standards and be supportive at the same time. And that is the way to help people reach their potential. So hopefully my girls are not going to be in therapy for too long and it's going to be ... No, I'm just kidding. They're fine.
Matt Poepsel (11:20):
I think it's not true. We don't train our parents, we don't train our managers. We don't offer enough training about the human psyche and how all this stuff works, but it does lead me to ask you a question. So you had had your military experience. You had had more than a decade, I believe, doing sales leadership and in the corporate world, but then you did go back to school to study specifically at a very high level, the positive psychology aspects. You just talked to us about Dr. Jaeger, et cetera. What motivated you to go and formalize your study of positive psychology?
Jill Schulman (11:49):
Yeah. Well, after spending almost 15 years in corporate America and then I started my own leadership development company. So it was after about eight years of me having my own leadership development company, part of my job to bring value to my corporate clients is I have to be an expert in organizational psychology, leadership development. That's my job because I need to know the most about it if I'm going to come in and I'm going to help them with talent, strategy, et cetera. At one point, I was working with a client and there were two of us, two consultants working together. And the other consultant, Blair McCainey, still a good friend of mine today, he sent me a TEDx of Sean Aker. And Sean Aker wrote a book called The Happiness Advantage. And that is what sent me down this whole road of positive psychology. So what Sean Aker was saying, he takes positive psychology and brings it to organizations.
(12:37):
He said, "Most people think that this is the way happiness works. When you achieve the goal, then you'll be happy." He goes, "No, no, no, no. That is not the way happiness works." When you generate positive emotions, happiness, gratitude, joy, that is what is the rocket fuel that helps you achieve your goals. So positive emotion helps you succeed. Don't wait until you're successful to be happy. And so he did this TEDx and he's hilarious and he's this great guy. So watched that TEDx. Then I got his book and read his book and I was just like, I didn't understand this. I didn't know that there's this field of positive psychology and it can be applied in organizations and it can help drive results and make people happier. Oh my gosh, I have been missing out. I looked up all the references in the back of his book and then I found out that you can actually study and get a degree in positive psychology.
(13:34):
And then I found out the best program in the world, University of Pennsylvania, where the founder of positive psychology was still teaching, Marty Sulligman. And it's kind of like, this goes back to like, "Hey, what service are you going to go into?" "Well, I'm going to go into the best one. I'm going to go in the Marine Corps. "And I was like, " I want to go to Penn and study under Marty Seligman. "And somehow they let me in. I don't know. So that was why I decided to study it because I just wanted to bring something new and novel to my clients. When I go into organizations, I focus on helping the leaders grow and develop their teams to perform at their best. But I realized that I was getting a little bit stale. I needed to grow and develop. So going back to school was like, it was another super challenging thing for me because I hadn't written academic papers in forever, but it was fantastic.
(14:20):
And now I'm really passionate about weaving the positive psychology into everything I do with my clients.
Matt Poepsel (14:25):
I love your example of leading by example, specifically saying," I'm challenging the leaders who are my clients to grow and to study and get good at this stuff, but wait a second, I should be doing the same thing. And you certainly don't shy away from hard things. Has always been evident. Pink dresses aside, I think that the reality is you've earned the right. And obviously you developed an interest in bravery specifically as a construct, we might say, in the literature and in the field. And it brings me to your book, The Bravery Effect. And I know you have this amazing framework in it and you really begin with mindset and you talk about developing a brave mindset. So everything has to start, I think with that. You mentioned Carol Dweck a little bit earlier with her growth mindset. Tell me what a brave mindset is and what are some of the places that we get stuck unless we develop that mindset, Joe?
Jill Schulman (15:11):
Yeah. I mean, whether we think we can or we think we can't, we're probably going to be right. So in order for people to be brave, so let's define what the construct of bravery means from an academic perspective, because a lot of people get that wrong and then we'll go into mindset. So most people think bravery is bravado and being fearless, absolutely wrong. The definition of bravery is voluntary action in the presence of fear toward a noble worthwhile goal. So if there's not fear, you're not being brave. So doing something scared because it matters. So if that is the definition of bravery, how do people become brave, develop the skill of bravery? And there's really three things I teach. And the first one is we have to look at mindset. We have to first win the battle in our minds first. And it's not the whole thing.
(16:00):
I'll talk a little bit about a few things that I teach to my clients, but we also don't stay in the mindset world because in some parts speakers or motivational speakers, sometimes they say mindset is everything. No, it's not. You can't just manifest and say like, I believe that I will have a million dollars and I'll have a Lamborghini and I'm going to sit in my room and meditate. No, that doesn't work that way. Mindset, the only reason that I focus on mindset is because what you believe is possible impacts your actions. The mindset is driving your ability to take a step on shaky knees. There's four things that I teach in my programs and sometimes mentioned from the stage. So the first thing is that growth mindset, believing that your skills and abilities are not fixed, you're not born with it. It's like the example Carol Dweck uses is like, " I'm just not good at mouth.
(16:45):
I can never do it. "Well, that's ridiculous. It's possible I'm not good at math yet. So just understanding that we have an ability to develop the skills to achieve our goals. So growth mindset is kind of the foundation, but I also really draw on the stresses enhancing mindset. And this is, I get so excited talking about this. So like Aaliyah Crum, Kelly McGonigal, psychologists, they have done research on how we look at challenges, stress, and facing fears. And basically, if you believe that enduring stress, facing challenges or facing your fears is bad for you, you will not be good at it and you will not do it. And it'll have a negative impact on your psychology, like how you feel and your physical body. But if you believe that challenges and stress and facing your fears is enhancing, it's good for you, it's your body preparing you to perform at your best.
(17:40):
And when you go through these challenges, you're going to grow and develop. So if you believe that stress is enhancing, it will be. So it's such a simple intervention, but the research is very clear. So I mean, we have to teach people, if you are going to do something brave and set a really brave goal and go after it, it's going to be hard. There's going to be setbacks. It's going to suck sometimes. And you have to realize that that's where strength is forged in the struggle. So we spend time on that. And the other two I'll just mention, and I won't go into the science behind it, but we also talk about the power of positive emotions. It's what I mentioned about what Sean Aker talks about in his book. It's like Barbara Frederickson's work on positivity. So we have to generate positive emotions on the journey to achieve our goal.
(18:28):
So we teach people how to do that. And then finally, I do go into the voice in our heads because that's a challenge for many people. So I really lean on Ethan Cross's work from the University of Michigan, absolutely brilliant, and talking about how people can have the power to change the dialogue in their head or turn down that horrible critic that says horrible things to you like, "You're not good enough, you're never going to be able to do it. " You have an ability, we have the power to change the dialogue in our heads and it matters. So those are the things that we teach in mindset. And it's not just mindset, but it's once we teach those skills, then people are more apt to actually take the step and do the brave thing.
Matt Poepsel (19:06):
It's almost like it's a gateway, right? So sometimes I like to say we achieve what we believe. And so when you're examining those beliefs, you're bringing them to the surface, you're saying, "Are these serving me? How are they affecting me? Am I shying away from things because I've already written a narrative that discomfort is bad?" And we kind of operate in a consumer-oriented society today that really tries to pedal us comfort at every turn. We're so comfortable, we're miserable in some ways, but I feel like mindset does ... I'm with you 100%, we have to reframe, we have to examine, but that alone is just kind of a step. It's not the only ... It doesn't guarantee our success.
Jill Schulman (19:39):
Can I share a study that I just ran into maybe five months ago that kind of blew my mind? And this hopefully, it relates to what you just said, like our society right now where we are obsessed with comfort and we think that pursuing a comfortable life of ease is what will make us happy. So there was this study that was published in 2022 and researchers followed more than 2000 adults and it was longitudinal. So they followed them for over four years. And what they found is experiential avoidance, which is academic speak for seeking comfort or avoiding discomfort or avoiding what you fear. So experiential avoidance caused, so this was causal. It predicted the development and sustained anxiety and depression. So I just want your audience to hear that because I think so many times we think of like, "Oh, this is stressing me out.
(20:32):
Oh, I want to focus on my mental health. So I'm going to have a me day and I'm not going to face the challenges because I want to be happier." If that is what you think, if that is your assumption, you are wrong. So avoiding challenges and things that scare you do not make you happier, it is actually the opposite. So I'm on a mission like you, and this is maybe you and I as fellow Marines that are speakers, we need to teach this, especially our younger generation, they think that, "Oh, I'm stressed. I'm going to slap a label of anxiety on it so that I don't have to deal with it. " If we allow them to do that, that is going to lead to a less fulfilling life.
Matt Poepsel (21:13):
Yeah, 100%. I know that the most significant growth that I've experienced, the achievements I'm most proud of, whatever it is, all came from discomfort. There's not an easy ... If something's easy and you achieve it, you're like, "It's just not that satisfying, much less than impactful." But I do think that it's a situation too where I think when we go back to your definition of bravery, Jill, and you're talking about you're going to experience anxiety, right? You're going to experience fear while you're doing the thing, but I think nobility is a part of it too. And I think it really requires us to choose things that are meaningful to us. And I know you do so much leadership development. It's a step that I think that leaders skip. A lot of times we say, "We need to make this change. We got to start using new AI tools so we can be more productive." And you're like, "Okay, where's the nobility in this?
(21:56):
How is this connected to our mission to help stakeholder, whatever it is? " We skip that part sometimes. Or when the person experiences the anxiety, the fear, they're like, "I didn't ask for this. I didn't self-select into this, so I'm either going to resist it or I'm going to try to ignore it so it blows over, or I'm going to struggle through it. " And it's like, well, wait a second, this reframing this mindset is what we should attack first before we start expecting too much of our people or skipping steps.
Jill Schulman (22:24):
Yeah, absolutely. I love the focus on nobility. If the goal is not meaningful, then you're not going to go through the stress to achieve it. So really focusing on the why of the goal and the research, they call them self-concordant goals. We've got to make sure that they're intrinsically motivating to us that it really matters for us. And when it does, it makes it easier to take that step. And then the other thing too is just letting people know that if you're about to do something and your heart is beating really fast and your hands are sweating, you're getting sweaty palms, your voice feels a little shaky, people think like, "Oh, there's something wrong, so I shouldn't do it. " If you're feeling the physiological manifestation of fear, that is exactly what's supposed to be happening. So I'm trying to normalize that as well. If we look at the physiological response to fear is what kept us alive, our ancestors back in our caveman days, but that exact same physiological response is what's giving your body what it needs to perform at its best.
(23:24):
So when your heart is beating really fast, it's getting blood to all parts of your body so that you can act. That adrenaline that you're feeling, oh, that's going to give the energy to get after it. I have no idea why the sweaty palms, I got to look into that, but I want people to realize that, hey, if you're feeling scared, good. That is exactly the way you should feel. Because I think that's what holds people back. They're like, "Okay, this really matters, but I'm scared. I just don't want to do it. " Well, if you're scared, sometimes that fear isn't a stop sign. It's a signpost pointing you to the thing that you most need to do.
Matt Poepsel (24:01):
I'd have to get your take on this one. Is it a little bit like a muscle? Does it something that we can get better at when it comes to taking these courageous acts or demonstrating bravery in the moment?
Jill Schulman (24:10):
So the research is clear that bravery is a skill that can be developed. And I always use the analogy of a muscles. So it's got to be the right weight, kind of like going into the gym. If someone says, "I'm just not strong," we'd say, "That's ridiculous." Anyone can become strong. You just have to put in the work and lift weights over time and progressively increase the load and you'll build that strength. And it's the exact same thing for bravery. So the challenge that I would have to face to create a little fear for me would be different than somebody else. So for anyone, you have to think about like, okay, so what are your goals? What are the things that you really want that scare you a little? And then what are the steps that are ... It's like the weight that, gosh, it definitely hurts a little to lift, but I can lift it.
(24:51):
And when we do that, and this is the most fascinating part of bravery, and this is what's going to be in book number two, a big section on this is the neurology of bravery. Just like our body, every time we challenge our body, our body's like, "Oh gosh, I better change my body to be ready for that challenge next time." So when we stress our body, it makes our muscles stronger. The same thing happens in our brains. So there's a couple parts of our brain that are affected. So when you do something scared, our body, this is brain plasticity, our prefrontal cortex and our mid-singular cortex are the two parts of the brain that get activated, that get a workout. It's like the part of the brain that's getting the workout. And when you do that, your body says, "Okay, I need to make that part of my brain stronger to be prepared next time." So just like we build muscles, our brain adapts as well.
(25:43):
Not only the size of parts of our brain, so we'll see that change in MRIs, but also the functional MRI will start seeing new neural pathways start lighting up between the ACC and the prefrontal cortex. So it's just fascinating. It'll become easier over time or you'll build that capacity for bravery.
Matt Poepsel (26:06):
It's incredible. And I think that knowing that it's a learnable skill is empowering, right? Because I think we've all felt that hesitation, I would say, when we're asked to do something uncomfortable, and that's natural, but I think knowing that we don't have to choose these grandiose things we can use, I think sometimes you talk about everyday bravery, things that are small and manageable at first, especially if we haven't had a lot of experience with doing those sorts of brave things. So I think it's encouraging.
Jill Schulman (26:32):
And when we think of bravery too, people usually think of it's Marines running into battle or a firefighter running into a burning building. Well, that's not the reality for most of us, just regular people. So you've got to find the everyday bravery. And a lot of times bravery is invisible to everyone because maybe someone speaking up in a meeting is something they are really scared to do and then they have that courage, they find the courage to speak up. So think of the little things you can do in maybe you're in your life at work, maybe a personal goal, maybe a physical goal. So it's doing reps consistently over time are going to build that bravery muscle instead of, it's not just in one moment that you run into the street to save a child. That's not the type of bravery that I'm talking about.
(27:22):
The way we build bravery is intentionally taking a step in the presence of fear toward a noble worthwhile goal. You do that over time, you're going to build that capacity for bravery.
Matt Poepsel (27:31):
I love it. I love it. Jill, it's so actionable. Your guidance that you're giving us, I think really does encourage us to take a step out of that comfort zone because that's where the growth happens. We've heard that before, but I think this additional layer about nobility, the fact that you're normalizing and attempting to sort of make it more widespread that we challenge ourselves in this way, we're going to be okay. I think it's going to be okay.
Jill Schulman (27:54):
You're not going to die. You're going to be okay.
Matt Poepsel (27:55):
And I think the challenges of our day really require us to do that as well. The challenges we face are so large in our organizations, in our communities, in society that if we're just going to comfort our way to the end, it's not going to be very pretty. We're going to have to get better at the things that you're teaching us to do.
Jill Schulman (28:11):
Take steps toward what we really want, the impact we want to make. Here's the biggest risk of all, Matt, is for us to be 75 years old, looking back on our life with regret. So we want to avoid the future pain of regret. So maybe I can leave people with this one other tip is in the moment when you want to do something but you're scared, I want you to have a little conversation with your 75-year-old self and listen to this wise mentor that will always tell you when you should take the step in the presence of fear. So just ask your future self, looking back in this moment, would you regret it or would I regret it if I didn't take action today? And whatever that answer is, listen to your future self.
Matt Poepsel (28:54):
It's such a great thought exercise. And I think it's that type of reflective nature that as leaders, we don't often spend enough time doing. We're so busy doing the acting and pivoting and dealing with whatever fire is burning right now. But I think taking yourself to a quiet space and trying to ask that question is going to lead us to make better choices and to develop a muscle almost the way that you've taught us how to do. Well, I've got something that's completely ridiculous for us. It's a trivia segment. And I had seen in one of your write-ups that you enjoy hiking in Southern California. So hiking's great. And I tend to enjoy hiking a lot more now that I'm out of the Marines than when I was in, but that was just me, maybe something-
Jill Schulman (29:28):
Totally. Because we don't have an 80 poundpack on our back with a M16 and
Matt Poepsel (29:34):
A flack
Jill Schulman (29:35):
Jacket and helmet. So it's a little bit-
Matt Poepsel (29:36):
Yeah, a little bit more leisurely is the way I do it today. But here's our question. It says, "In the world of hiking, what is the term for a manmade pile of stones used to mark a trail or a summit? Is it A, a cane, B, a scree or C, a switchback?" Wow, that's a good one. I don't even recognize that middle term of skree. And I know that a switchback is sort of a-
Jill Schulman (29:56):
It's not a switchback
Matt Poepsel (29:57):
Because we know what
Jill Schulman (29:58):
Switchbacks are. What was the first one?
Matt Poepsel (29:59):
A Carin. Carin, C-A-I-R-N. I think we should probably go with that one.
Jill Schulman (30:04):
I would go with that one. Are we right?
Matt Poepsel (30:06):
Let's find out. So audience you for playing along with Manmade Powell Stones used to market trailer summit. Is it A, Karen, B, Scree, or C, switchback? We went with A, and that is correct. The answer is a Karen. It's Galic, getting heap of stones. There you go. Learn something new every day, I guess. But that was fabulous, Jill. And the conversation was even more fabulous, of course, but I've got a better question for you. Where can my listeners go to learn more about you and about your book, The Bravery Effect?
Jill Schulman (30:29):
Oh, great. Thanks for asking. So I just have a website. It's super easy. It's my first and last name, so jillschulman.com. And I do have something free to give away to your listeners. So if they go to my website, J-I-L-L S-C-H-U-L-M-A-N, if you go to my website, there's a free bravery assessment. It takes three minutes to take, and then you can download a free bravery blueprint. And the reason I just give this away for free is because as you probably heard, I want people to live their happiest life. And if you want to live your most fulfilling, happiest life, you've got to learn to be brave. So just download the bravery blueprint and it's going to give you these evidence-based tips on the brave mindset, the brave action and the brave relationships, just to help you set one brave goal and be able to make some progress there.
(31:18):
So please, please, please take all the freebies and let me know if it helps. And I'm on all social media too, but just my website is where you get all the freebies, but I'm most active on LinkedIn, but I'm getting out of my comfort zone. I'm on Instagram and I mean Facebook, so I'm trying to do a better job of getting to those other platforms.
Matt Poepsel (31:36):
Always leading by example. I love it, Jill. Well, thanks so much for today. And listeners, I might have those links for you in the show notes. You'll be one click away from connecting you with Jill, getting those freebies, really getting your bravery blueprint. I'm with you 100%, Jill. It's something that's so important for us to do and you've made it much more approachable and actionable for us than it is in a vacuum. And that's what I really appreciate most about your work. So thanks again.
Jill Schulman (31:57):
All right. Thanks for having me.
Matt Poepsel (31:58):
And listeners, thanks to you of course as well for investing in yourself, listening to this type of content, the great tips that we got from Jill. If you've got 30 extra seconds, leave a five-star review on Spotify. That would really help me out. Help me attract more great guests like Jill. So I'm going to leave you with this one. Until next time, don't just manage the business when you can lead the people.