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Thoughts on online work, dependability, tools, and craft
Philip: All right.
Welcome to the contraption
company podcast today.
I have a friend Taylor crane to come
talk about the future of fractional work.
Welcome.
Taylor: Thanks.
Phil.
Thank you for having me.
Philip: So you had a previous
company called clubs poker.
It's a plural on the clubs, right?
Taylor: Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Philip: And so that was an online app
that ended up getting acquired recently.
Um, what did you learn from clubs poker?
That's influencing your kind of interest
in the fractional space right now.
Taylor: Maybe there are, like, probably
two learnings I can, uh, distill
from, like, the club's poker journey.
Like, both of them are about the benefits
of hiring fractional as a founder.
Um, so I, and this is really before
I knew of what fractional work was in
a formal, you know, in a formal way.
Um, so, uh, first learning is,
like, I hired, one of my engineers
was a fractional engineer
for 15 to 20 hours a week.
Um, He had a full time job and uh,
what is one of the most like, uh,
hardworking, diligent people I know.
And so I structured his life where he did
work for clubs poker between 7 and 10 a.
m.
and or 7 and 10 p.
m.
kind of alternating days and
nights and then weekends too.
Um, he loved it.
Uh, it worked really well for us.
And like, it was a great example
of like me being able to get access
to very senior technical talent
that I otherwise wouldn't have had.
Probably would not have had easy access
to yeah, um, and it was the right
level of investment and it made a
lot of sense so like That's learning.
Number one is like I actually was
hiring fractional before I even knew
what fractional work was Uh, the second
learning though, the biggest um uh
weakness of the company, uh was our
marketing, uh, and it's because my You
Uh, my strengths were not in marketing.
I'm more much more product oriented.
Um, and uh, There were a number of reasons
why I just like was not well equipped
to like be a great marketer for this
business um And I knew it right There
was even a point where I, like my primary
initiative at the company was to teach
myself marketing to then go do marketing.
Um, so like I took a course called
demand curve, quite expensive, right?
And I tried to like ramp up on like
the basic marketing strategies, like
everything from paid ads to like organic
influencer strategies and stuff, SEO.
Um, and in hindsight, just an
incredible waste of my time.
And there was no way that I was
going to be able, as the CEO of a
business, also like, Ramp up and
become like a capable marketer.
Yeah And then on top of that like it's
one thing to for me to have built like
the skills of like a An entry level
or junior or even mid level marketer
It's another thing to like have the
marketing experience to know what strategy
should be implemented and what strategy
shouldn't be implemented So I'm basically
I'm alluding to the fact that like I
should have hired a fractional CMO.
Yeah And that would have been a
great option or path for me to take.
I didn't take it.
And it is like our, um, so the story
of clubs is like, so we ended up
selling, but like in large part, we
weren't able to raise our seed round
because growth was good, but not great.
And growth was good because we had
a really solid organic SEO strategy
that was like half accidental.
Um, but like we had no other
ways of acquiring users.
And, um, I do wonder, like, if I had
a capable marketing leader, what, you
know, what would that story have been?
I don't know.
Yeah.
Philip: So at that point, your
options were bring in a full
time marketer or do it yourself.
And you chose to do it yourself, assuming
full time is going to be too expensive.
And now it seems like the idea of
fractional work is there's a third
option that's halfway in between.
Could you give me, like, what do
you define as fractional work?
Because this first engineer
you had was moonlighting.
Yeah.
So he had a full time job,
he was working part time.
Yeah.
What, uh, what do you define
nowadays as fractional work?
Taylor: So I'd say that fractional
work is part time work, uh, typically
paid on a monthly retainer, uh, and
performed by experts in their field.
So, uh, What this boils down to
basically is like someone doing
less than 40 hours a week of work.
Take it like 20 hours or 10 or 5 or 2.
Um, they, uh, and they are
an expert in their field.
Meaning they have some,
they have expertise.
They have experience
they're coming in with.
So you're hiring them to, to own
something and do something that
they are already really good at.
Uh, and something that like nobody
else in the organization can do.
As a differentiator from
like a more junior level.
Uh, maybe like a, we might use the term
freelancer to describe like, um, someone
who's sort of taking, um, direction from
someone else, the company and sort of
just executing, um, does that make sense?
Philip: Yeah.
And that's been kind of
my experience too, where
you're getting high quality talent that
you would be happy to have full time.
You just don't necessarily
have the capacity full time.
And then you're able to
work with them part time.
Like I was interviewing today,
uh, SEO person who we, for my
find AI project, we need SEO work.
We don't have the capacity to bring on
a full time SEO person when we're a team
of five, but Bringing someone who knows
what they're doing is really impactful
because there's a lot of SEO consultants
out in the world that are basic level,
but getting someone who's not just kind
of like doing the basic level, but is
actually going to do strategic advising on
like putting together strategy, different
campaigns, all this different stuff, and
like testing, and actually is able to
work with the team long term is really
valuable because so much of these Things
are about like this long term relationship
and kind of compounding over time.
So I'm really bullish on fractional work.
So now you run fractionaljobs.
io, a job board.
Uh, we can talk more about that.
And I'm working on a fractional
community called frctnl,
fractional, uh, dot x, y, z.
And I'm also hiring fractional
workers at my company, Find.
ai.
I hired a designer through fractionaljobs.
io And so there's like a lot of
discussion of fractional going on here.
I previously had a company where the
hypothesis was about moonlighting.
We didn't call it fractional at the time.
And so I thought it'd be really
interesting to kind of dig in now
on like, what is happening in the
fractional world and where is it going?
So with that, can you tell me more about
fractional jobs and why you started it?
What it does?
What have been your
learnings along the way?
Taylor: Yeah, so the basics is that,
you know, Fractional Jobs is a talent
marketplace for fractional leaders,
for fractional talent, um, and the
startups that are looking to hire them.
And so we are, uh, tech focused, uh, or,
you know, lean towards tech startups.
Tech focused isn't like tech startup
focused, but then we are, we support
about ten different function areas
that we help to Um, the big ones are,
uh, marketing leadership type roles,
engineering leadership type roles.
Um, design is actually
quite popular as well.
Um, and then, um, a long tail of
a bunch of other, we've done, you
know, general counsel roles even.
So, yeah.
Philip: So, when you go to the
website, my initial impression is
that it feels like a job board,
but you're just getting started.
Grabbing it as more of a marketplace.
Can you help me?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taylor: It's fair.
So, uh, it's funny, like, and this is
something that we can dive deeper on.
Uh, if you go to the website today,
it, uh, the tagline is, uh, the
job board for fractional work.
Uh, when I launched it and when I was
conceiving the idea, it was very much
meant to be a job board in the way that
we all understand job boards to be.
Companies post roles.
Candidates apply for roles, companies
will get, will get candidates,
and then reach out, you know, etc.
Um, I very quickly realized that a job
board in the way that I just described
it is not a good fit for, uh, this
market, the fractional market, for
several reasons, including, like,
where the fractional market is at
in its stage of maturity, but then
also, like, Who, who is the market?
Meaning, like, who are fraction,
you know, who are the fractionals?
They're like, you know, we tend
to be leaders, tend to be folks
that are mid career plus, right?
So, you know, 8, 10 plus years of
experience and also tend to be those that
are like very, um, Very good at their job
for lack of a better way of saying it.
And so, um, you know, after launching
the job, the job board, job board, uh,
I, it's sort of one of those things
like in hindsight, I should have known
this, but like a job board is actually
a pretty crappy product for both
hirers and for uh, talent, uh, and I
don't want to build a crappy product.
And so that has like not forced
me, but encouraged me to pivot
towards What I describe it now
as, which is a talent marketplace.
Now it's funny because the website
still says job board and this is
purely just a function of like the
business is moving faster than I'm
able to update the landing page.
Uh, and so doing things very iteratively,
uh, and, uh, in the spirit of, of lean.
Um, and so, uh, I will update one
day the messaging on the site, but
today it is still says job board.
Philip: I think it works though,
because I think that it's a
media strategy in a good way.
Like you're saying that job boards are.
A crappy product maybe, but I think
that 10 years ago, something like
remote, okay, or something like that,
like there was a scarcity in finding
the jobs, but now I think what you're
almost pitching is this different way
to work and the product is the same.
It's like a newsletter with fractional
jobs in it that helps people kind of see
it, but I think the job to be done is
really shifted where you're offering.
Instead of the scarcity being the
jobs themselves, instead of what
you're doing is offering this like.
curation and almost like this education.
And so I think that I think you
should keep the job board thing.
I just think that maybe it's the, it's
your media strategy because someone
who's interested in fractional jobs
can go sign up, start to see what
the jobs look like, start to see what
do they pay, what do they look for,
how many years of experience, and as
they kind of start to get nurtured by
this newsletter, then maybe they come
to you and say, Hey, I'm ready for,
Actually taking on one of these jobs.
And so maybe the job board newsletter is
no longer just the getting the job part.
Maybe it's more just like education.
I think the, I think that that's where
a lot of job boards are heading is more
media and still being super valuable,
but like, there's not many resources
out there about fractional jobs.
And so if anything, you're just, creating
credibility that there are fractional
jobs out there by having this job board.
Taylor: I think you've made
a series of great points.
And, uh, yeah, like, you know,
maybe I don't need to be so hard
lined in thinking about things as an
either or, you know, type scenario.
Um, there are benefits to calling it
a job board and, you know, it's, it's
also why I'm not in a rush to change
it on the landing page, which is that
it is very communicative of what it is.
Like we all know what a job board
is, whereas talent marketplace.
Yeah.
I, I worry that it's like sometimes
a little bit like, uh, in speak,
like in group speak, uh, and like, it
sounds just a little bit pretentious.
Right.
And so like, um, uh, there,
yeah, there probably is a way of
like, Finding a middle ground.
I agree with the media
strategy comments, of course.
Um, so, yeah, I don't know what exactly
how I'm going to end up describing it.
Um, uh, It's interesting to see it
evolve like literally week by week.
Yeah.
Philip: But I think it's like a great
place to be in as an entrepreneur
is like not really being sure how to
describe it, but people are using it.
They're getting value out of it.
Like for me as a customer, I
understand and you help me fill a role.
So I think it's like,
it's a good spot to be in.
It's, it's, I realize it's stressful.
I've been there many times of
like, shit, what, what is this?
What am I trying to sell?
How do I describe it?
And like founders all the time, I'm sure
you're in the same boat or just, Really
agonizing over what the homepage says.
Yeah.
About a product.
Yeah.
But, um, I think you'll,
you'll figure it out.
And so you described it as a marketplace.
I don't know, did you see
the essay I put up about the
opportunity of tech talent agents?
So I saw it.
I haven't read it
Taylor: yet.
Um, I know we've talked about it a bit.
Yeah.
You've given me some,
some preview into it.
Philip: Yeah.
What I was talking about in the
article was mainly the idea that.
I think there's an opportunity for people
to work with talent on an ongoing basis.
If you look at Hollywood, like an
actor has their own agents that helps
them get job after job after job.
Fractional work is starting to move a
little bit towards that where maybe you'll
work with multiple different startups
and then come back to, uh, having this
one agent who just helps you line up
your next work or figure out things.
Um, but you're kind of
describing it as a marketplace.
And I think that, I don't know if
these are necessarily different because
maybe we're just using old words
to describe, uh, kind of familiar
things, but, um, where, where do
you think your model is heading?
Like, how does that work in terms of,
um, how you make money with talent?
Taylor: Yeah.
There are probably two, there are two,
or maybe even more than two ways to
approach it, but, you know, the, um, the
talent agent type model is one where,
uh, you know, It's more of an outbound
or like a proactive Aggressive strategy
by on the half of the talent on the part
of the talent rather to like go out and
find Opportunities right what that could
be Throughout cold outreach it could be
through content create, you know content
marketing and stuff um, and then the
flip side is uh companies identifying
needs for themselves and then uh Doing
the same thing going, you know doing
outreach in different ways as well.
Um, I imagine that both will
Um, be necessary and both
strategies will be successful.
Um, a lot of times when I think about
like, you know, what do I imagine the
fractional work world to look like?
Um, because I think that fractional is
like a big part of the future of work
in general, I tend to just fall back
on asking myself, okay, well, like
how does like the full time world work
for, you know, for hiring and such?
And, uh, how We see both strategies
like we have plenty of how many job
boards are out there for full time,
you know work and then Uh, I remember
when I was um You know in my pm career.
Uh, rarely did I you know, did I um
rely just on you know Like angel list
where it's called wealth out now at
the time I used it, but it wasn't the
only strategy I used like I was hitting
up my network constantly I was hitting
up companies trying to network and
trying to like, you know Doing more of
like I mean, I didn't have an agent.
I was playing the agent part of
myself, but like I think both of those
strategies feel, um, like necessary
components of the whole ecosystem.
Philip: So then looking at kind
of these, we'll call it the most
experienced or elite fractionals today,
is, are they having to go outbounds
for work or is there inbounds yet?
Because what we would hope to see at some
point in this market is that, The best
fractionals start to get inbounds demands.
Yeah.
Uh, for people wanting to work with them.
What are you seeing?
Taylor: So, from what I see, most, the
way that most successful fractionals
build their business is through, uh,
a type of inbound, which is referrals.
So referrals that come from either
clients of theirs or former colleagues
of theirs in the full time world, right?
Um, when I started doing fractional
work myself, uh, the first
three clients I got came from,
uh, uh, inbound referrals
from my, my immediate network.
Um, even the fourth came from, I
mean, every single one, not every
one, but like the fourth one came
from, uh, uh, an inbound from like
a secondary connection as well.
One of the inspirations from starting
fractional jobs in the first place
is seeing that, um, at least from my
vantage point, the only way to build
a successful fractional practice was
through inbound referrals and wanting
to offer a different option that
was more expensive and more, um, you
know, could reach a larger audience.
Um, Having said all that, like I do
know some fractional leaders that
do have like a cold outbound type
strategy or content marketing strategy.
Um, I have, I have less, I certainly
have less personal experience with it.
I've not done much of it myself
in my own fractional work.
Um, I imagine it looks very, very, it's a
very similar motion to what like agencies
do and other service providers type do
like, you know, boutique law firms and
stuff, um, or, you know, accounting firms.
Uh, yeah.
Philip: That makes sense.
I think that there's probably like a
spectrum here that we're starting to
explore, which is what we're using to
describe fractional today is like a very
particular kind of product as thing.
But as people really get further in
their fractional careers, they could
open an agency and start subcontracting.
They could really productize their
service and kind of abstract away
the number of hours that they're
working and kind of switching to
more like a product has things.
I think that What you're saying
is fair, and I also interpret as
people might not stay as an
IC forever as they kind of
follow this fractional career.
So the question I always get, and I'm
curious to get your take on is, why
are these people doing fractional work?
What are they doing with the
other half of their time?
Taylor: Well, I think there's like, um,
What I, what I say is like, um, when you
do fractional work, there's always like
a, a, there's a motivation behind it,
right, and, and, uh, there are several
motivations that I see commonly, um,
one is I, I want to do fractional work
so that I can work because I have more
capacity in me than what my full time job
offers me and I want to capitalize on it.
Right, so that this is someone and
I'm picturing certain people in
my mind that um, What do I want
to work 40 50 60 hours a week?
um and feel like their full time job
was um Just kind of capping them right
they have more they have more in them
Uh, and so they're picking up like
enough client work to make that happen.
Yeah, um, but then they're I mean for
me my motivation my why uh, I do and
have done fractional work in order
to bootstrap my next You Uh, startup,
uh, which became fractional jobs.
Um, so like I approached it from a very
founder type, you know, type mindset.
This is an opportunity for me
to, uh, stay in the game, right.
So, you know, help other, you know,
help other founders, uh, but then also,
you know, give myself the time and
the space to start my next company.
Yeah.
And then the parent, you know,
parents is another obvious example.
Like I want to, uh, spend 20
hours a week more with my kids,
you know, which is super valid.
Philip: I see a lot of
the same things you see.
I think it's so hard to measure
productivity and knowledge work, and
that's an underlying issue here in
general is, for instance, as a software
engineer, you could write all of your
code for the day in two hours, or you
could be lazy and had read it open and
take a bunch of meetings and kind of
piecemeal do your work throughout the
day and stretch it out to 12 hours.
And the value created per
hour on a knowledge worker.
varies drastically.
And if you're at a big company and
you go from normal engineer to senior
engineer, maybe your pay goes up like
10%, maybe, but your productivity
goes up like far more than 10%.
And so I think that my meta thinking on
fractional work is that the, some of the
highest performing people realize that
the incentives are not set up correctly
for people to work in a focused way.
Yeah.
And if you're a knowledge worker where
your intensity of focus matters, I
mean, we talked about jobs over time
and like in a car factory, you've got
to be at the line for eight hours.
Totally.
It's
Taylor: a linear, the output is
linear with the inputs, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Philip: But as a knowledge worker, uh,
being able to sit down and write code for
two hours with high intensity of focus
might really drain you and make you unable
to work at that intensity for the whole
day, but might be the best way to work.
And so I think that there's, for
me, Hypothesis here that The reason
I hire factionally is that some of
the smartest people realize the kind
of Sisyphean nature of just sitting
at a desk for eight hours when
you can do your work in less time.
Yeah.
And I think that there's a whole group
of knowledge workers that realize that
if they can get their work done quickly,
they can stop their work for the day
and they prefer to work that way.
And you're right.
Like some people spend the
other half of their day.
So some people I work with, like Been
parents or road tripping work with
one guy who is driving a camper van
around Europe and, you know, kind of
writes awesome code in the morning.
And then like, I don't know
what he does in the afternoons.
Someone else like is writing a book and
really cares deeply about that book.
And I feel like what you unlock
with fractional work is people
that are really good at their jobs.
And.
Sometimes I think the gems in the rough
are people that love their work so
much that they're spending the other
half of their time, uh, doing this
intrinsically motivated project kind of
related to it, like hosting a podcast or
writing a book or something like that.
And I think that that's kind of
the coolest thing in fractional
work sometimes is you find these
people that love their work so much.
That they try to really brand
themselves around it and that
they end up being just the most
amazing individual contributors to.
Taylor: Yeah.
Um, I strongly agree.
I think a little bit tangential to
that, but in the same vein, like I
think fractional work represents an
opportunity for the quote unquote, the
worker to take back more ownership and
more control over their work, their
life, uh, how they want to invest their.
professional time and personal time, um,
and it creates so much more optionality
and then therefore probably better
outcomes for everyone once like the dust
settles, you know, once it all shakes out.
Um, yeah, it's super exciting.
Philip: I think it's super exciting.
Yeah.
I, I got really excited about
fractional work as I was traveling
through the Nordics and was
really thinking about the kind of,
they call it the welfare
states and there's not a lot
of wage differentiation there.
And so whether you're a barista or
a spine surgeon, your children have
a very similar kind of path in life.
It's, you know, they go to the same
university, they can still have
healthcare, all these different things.
And the, um, the workers generally,
there's not like a, there is some
variation in income, but it's not the
wide variation you see in the States.
And as I was looking at the United
States, I was seeing just How some
of the people that were the highest
performers in the United States were kind
of getting trapped into these systems
where they would incrementally increase
their salaries over time, but just
get held back by bullshit bureaucracy.
And that could be that you must show
up at the office at 9am for standup,
or even if you write really good code,
you're not going to perform on this
corporate environment, or it could be.
That's if you live in this less peak
place, but we're going to decrease
your cost or what we pay you.
I've been at companies that have like
location based pay and it's really
affects the high performing workers.
And so I think my kind of overall
hypothesis on fractional work is that
these people who are really outstanding
are hitting the edges of some of
these really rule based environments.
And that they want more autonomy and
more pay sometimes, but sometimes
it's just straight up autonomy.
They don't necessarily want more money.
And so I think that there's a migration
of super talented people seeking
fractional work, and if you're really
trying to build an outstanding team
that you should definitely look towards
fractional work, which leads me to my
question, is this the future of work?
Is fractional work the future is.
What does it say about the future of work?
Taylor: So, uh, in short, yes, I
think it's fractional work is the
future of work, but I think probably
more accurately, we would say
fractional work is a future of work.
It is part of the future of work, right?
Um, I think a big part, actually, like
I think, and to be clear, like, let's
scope ourselves to talking about knowledge
work, because I think when you get out
of knowledge work, it gets a lot, I also
don't, I also don't feel like an expert
on anything outside knowledge work.
So I can't comment.
But, um,
Like when we, if we step back and We,
well, let's first think about like where
the 40 hour work week came from, right?
We, uh, from the industrial revolution,
uh, the Henry Ford, uh, era, um, made a
lot of sense, you know, in that context.
Uh, we are so far past that point now.
Uh, it feels to me and I think
an increasing number of people it
feels incredibly arbitrary, uh,
and uh, when we sort of wake up or
realize the fact that like that 40
hours number is arbitrary, right?
It might make sense to hire
someone for 5 or 2 hours a week,
depending on what the needs are.
So now we have the full spectrum
of options available to us,
which we never had before.
Yes, obviously, it feels clear to me that
an increasing number of companies will
start taking advantage of that, right?
And so, um, I think knowledge work
will look very much like just a pure
spectrum of work anywhere from one
hour a week to 40 plus hours a week.
Now, I'm also like, I'm not an expert
on like employment law and like the
intricacies of like W2 versus part
time versus 1099 and all that stuff.
So if we like, Let's just remove
that for the sake of simplicity.
Like, I expect in the future, every
hiring conversation to be like, you're,
you're assessing variables that are
like, okay, what's the comp going to be?
What, and then what is
the input going to be?
What is the, what is the, like, you
know, how much, how much, however you
want to measure it, but like how much
input am I, you know, giving in here.
Um, and that's going to be just
a normal part of like the hiring
and contract conversation.
Philip: I think that's fair.
I was reading , the anthology of
Bology, , Bology of, uh, crypto fame.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
I thought that's what
you were talking about.
Yeah.
And he talks in his, in this book, I
guess this book, uh, kind of talks about
his philosophies that regulation holds
back a lot of innovation that Airbnb
overcame regulation about hotels to
make their business, that Uber overcame
regulation about taxis to make their
business, and do you think there's an
angle here of fractional work overcoming
some of the Uh, the rules we put in place
around employments because they don't
necessarily apply in this new world.
I, like,
Taylor: feel super confident in that.
Uh, at the same time, I, again, I
recognize that, like, I'm not, that's
like a very complex area that I'm
not, like, super, like, like, expert
in, but, um, it seems so natural
to me that that would be the case.
That, like, cause, again, those concepts
also are, like, an industrial era concept.
Uh, and so, like, it feels super natural.
Obvious to say that like in the
near to midterm future, they will be
disrupted Um, and I think it's for
the best, you know for for the better
of everyone We were seeing this a
bit with like the gig economy, right?
Like there's been a lot of like You know
regulatory pushback on the gig economy.
I think Uh, some of it
probably seems valid.
I think a lot of it is very unfortunate.
Um, And I I can't help but get
frustrated when I see like there are
regulations in new york right now around.
Um, You Uh, new fees for delivery drivers.
The intention is, uh, so that
delivery drivers get paid more.
I think the concept is like Uh, let's
make sure that delivery drivers get paid
a minimum, a certain minimum wage for,
you know, for their working, uh, for the
amount of hours they're working, right?
Um, and, uh, that has all sorts of second
order consequences and has led to UberEats
and DoorDash, et cetera, implementing
certain, uh, Like fee structures to abide
by these laws and then in doing so have
pissed off a bunch of delivery drivers
who have been protesting These changes
like this are the very so anyway It's
like I that kind of stuff frustrates me
because I think sometimes the intention
it might be right and might be there
but like so often it It's not embracing
gig economy work in the way that I think
it needs to be for the future Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
And same with fractional.
Like we're, we'll, you know,
fractional will encounter the
same or similar challenges.
Philip: So let's explore that then.
So you think the fractional work is,
uh, important parts of future work.
I agree.
Let's explore some of the
second order consequences.
What does that mean?
What do you think the future of work
is for a new grad out of college?
Should they go to a fractional job or no?
Taylor: I think about this sometimes,
um, not only, so we can even layer in
like the remote work conversation too.
Cause like, I feel so thankful
that I graduated college and
spent almost 10 years working
in an office before COVID hit.
Now, I say I see, I see, I feel thankful,
but like, I don't know, maybe there are
amazing benefits to going from, like,
college right into, like, the remote
workforce, I don't know, but, like,
there are definitely some downsides that
I see, uh, but same with fractional,
like, you know, going I don't know.
Is the short answer is I don't know.
Like I think it, it concerns me,
but it also like it, it sort of
challenges me or excites me to
think about like, what does career
progression look like for a fraction?
So like right now, for
example, at fractional jobs,
my, I have four team members.
All of them, um, are either
10 or 20 hours a week.
And, um, Some of them
are on the junior side.
Yeah.
And I think about like,
you know, what does career
progression look like for them?
What, what is my responsibility, you
know, as, as the founder of the company.
Um, and also like someone that like
thinks and spends all my days thinking
about the fractional movement.
Um, I don't know the answer to this one.
It's hard.
What do you think?
Philip: I think about it a lot.
I think that I think of
consultants and how McKinsey
and consulting firms like that.
bread and butter is people who come
out of school and work for them for two
years and then go do something else.
And that's just built into the model.
And I think that I could see a
future where people graduating from
university or even self employed, right?
Like, I don't think that you need
to go to university necessarily,
especially in order to speak
out in the fractional world.
But I do think that there's going
to be this step of having to
learn how to work and probably.
Having to move to a city like New
York City, work at an office, and
having arbitrary rules applied, not
because, um, the rules necessarily
are the best way to work, but because
you have to learn how to work before
you can remix it into your own style.
So I could definitely see kind of
this path where people that are
junior going and having to show up
at the office at 9am and do stand up.
Uh, so that they can then go
and invent their own rules.
And I don't think that's even too
different than restaurants, right?
Like how many chefs go to Paris to
work in the brigade system and, uh,
learn the classic French recipes to
then return home to wherever they may
be from and put their own spin on it.
And I think that that's probably
going to look like for, uh,
for junior folks nowadays is.
Is.
Taylor: Yeah, like sort of cutting
your teeth in like the um, the
more structured environments.
I can also see like, you know, let's
just imagine that every job suddenly is
fractional, like, which won't be true, but
let's just imagine like, I can see like,
you know, types of agencies developing
that are like, create a more full time,
Structure for more junior employees,
but still deploy them in front, you
know, in fractional, you know, contexts.
Um, Agencies already do that.
Yeah, that's a good point.
Yeah.
A lot of the
Philip: agency model is
almost like arbitrage.
Uh, yeah, yeah.
Junior folks, yeah.
Taylor: I feel like there are some
agency veterans that might be with, might
listen to this conversation and be like,
Like, we, this is what we've been doing.
decades now.
What are you talking about?
Um, uh, one more point though, on, on
the topic of like the, the, the junior,
uh, you know, coming out of coming into
the workforce, um, uh, fractional work
today involves running your own business.
Yeah.
Uh, it involves things that are
not just your domain expertise.
So like client relationship management,
for example, back office type stuff.
And, um, I can imagine
that a lot of that stuff
being like, learning
like how to manage clients and like
how to like, you know, Basics of
accounting and stuff like that and
all the other facets that go into
like operating a solo business.
Yeah um Whereas like fractional
workers today Generally speaking you
have that domain expertise already.
You're just learning the other stuff Yeah,
so man, that sounds like a really hard
challenge to like try and learn all that
stuff at once it'd be like a in your chef
context to be like Uh someone graduating
culinary school and just opening up their
own or being the head chef at or it's like
Philip: It's like having
to figure out how to order.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I think that's totally fair.
So,
let's talk about some more of the
other second order consequences here.
What do you think are the other
second order consequences of
the rise of fractional work?
Taylor: So here's another one that I
don't know the answer to, and it, um,
it's actually it might even, it's, it'll
be I'm interested to hear your take,
because it's potentially a negative
outcome, but, so I do a lot of comparing
of like the fractional work movement with
the remote work movement, and something
that I'm seeing in the remote work
world is that, uh, there are There's a
tension between, uh, the employee who
wants a remote work environment and
the company who some companies, a large
number of companies, frankly, uh, would
prefer everyone be, you know, in office.
Um, I'm certainly surprised that like post
COVID, like there is this pendulum swing
back towards like the in office type work.
Um, you know, it surprises me
personally, but it reminds me that
like, there is that tension there.
And, uh, and, and so I, companies
willing to pay a premium for talent that
is coming into the office every day.
Whether or not we agree with the
premium is a different story.
It does, it is there.
At least some companies, you
know, apply that premium.
And so now let's think about
the fractional work world.
Fractional work is a very appealing
and compelling concept for employees.
We know that it's an appealing
and compelling concept for
startups and companies as well.
Um, but.
Not every company agrees.
And I, I do think like, will we
see a type of premium applied to a
salary that is a full time salary?
Yeah.
Um, and cause like right
now the opposite is true.
Like if you do fractional work today,
uh, and you meet a certain like quality
bar in terms of your skillset, um, you
will make potentially significantly more
money than if you were W 2 employed.
Philip: Especially because
of the tax benefits.
Like the tax code is not friendly to
people that make between one and five
hundred thousand dollars per year.
Taylor: Also on top of that, do you
know Ankur Nagpal, the founder of Cary?
No.
And Teachable as well.
He said this, I'm not sure if it
was on a podcast or something, but
he said something that I'll never
forget, which is the tax code is
rigged in favor of business owners.
Yes.
And technically as a, you know,
fractional employee, you know,
you own your own business.
Yeah.
So today, like, and I've done some
like, enough math on this to feel
like reasonably confident in saying
that like, in the fractional work
world, if you structure things
correctly, you could be making.
As much as like 50 percent more on top of
what you would be making in a W2 context.
Um, but now I think second order
consequences here is that might that
flip in some ways, like might companies
start applying a premium to folks
that are willing to work full time
because so many people are, um, more
interested in doing the fractional thing.
Philip: I think it's a really good thing.
I've been thinking about too, my kind
of working hypothesis right now is that
you're going to have two tiers of tech.
Companies or knowledge work companies
in general, where there's the
core group that makes decisions.
And then there's the second tier,
which is the fabrication layer.
And the way I'm thinking of building
this in my own company that I'm working
on today with fractional workers is I
think that if I were to hire engineers
and they just want to be in the
fabrication layer and just write code.
Totally happy to have you be fractional
wherever you want in the world.
But if I'm hiring a PM who's going to
be making business critical decisions,
I think that person I want more co
located with me to be able to have the
kind of water, cool convert, water,
cooler conversations and figuring
out strategy and stuff like that.
And I think that honestly, the extent
of this is I think that tech companies,
what they should probably be doing is
hiring PMs and giving them a cash budget.
And saying your budget is 750,
000 per year for your team.
Go run your team, however you want
and be co located with the PM, but
let the PM hire and manage and fire
whatever they want through fractional
or freelance or anything like that.
And I think you're kind of starting
to see that emerge in some tech
companies like Airbnb, where.
If you are a product manager at Airbnb,
you're expected to probably show
up at the office in San Francisco.
Otherwise you're just not
going to be effective at your
role or not get promoted.
But if you're on more of the fabrication
side, like you're running financial
reports or something like you don't
have to be at the office and your role
is more fabrications, you can be in the
middle of, uh, the desert and it works.
Okay.
I think that's kind of where
things are going to head.
And I think that people are going to
consciously pick, like, I care about
my career and want to be getting
high equity upside by being on site.
Or I care about flexibility and
autonomy and I'm going to be remote.
And I think that what you're
talking about here is, I don't
know if it's all necessary to be
cash, but I think it'll be equity.
That'll be a big differentiator probably.
Like, I think that if, Oh, the
Taylor: premium is, is
delivered in terms of equity.
Is that what you mean?
Yeah.
It's,
Philip: it's like the
owner agent problem, right?
It's like the owner agent problem says
that like, if you're working on your own
business, you behave differently than if
you're working on someone else's business.
And I think that's.
The fabrication layer is going to be
more of agents and treated that way.
Like if you're, if you want to
balance lifestyle and work from a
non major place, I think that you're
just gonna have lower equity, but
you're gonna have more autonomy.
Whereas if you choose to go beyond
site, I think you're going to end up
with, um, equity that could go to zero.
Like your equity is all funny money
and tech, but sometimes it's worth
a significant amount of money.
And I think that those are the
folks that are getting more equity.
Taylor: That's interesting,
the core team versus, what do
you call it, the fabrication?
Fabrication.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Philip: And I think the fabrication,
like, can be a great place to be, right?
Because you're trying to, um, focus
on a mix of consulting and fractional
jobs, entrepreneurship, and I don't
think you can have the headspace to be
Doing the strategy on site
work for both of them, right?
So you're having a mix of fabrication
work and strategic work, almost.
Taylor: Yeah, I think that's interesting.
I think that's very, I
didn't think about it.
I've never thought about it in the
context of like the core team versus,
you know, the fabrication layer.
Um, it's something more
for me to think about.
I
Philip: think you're the people
that choose to be remote.
And the company have an office that the
remote folks just get less upside in the
Taylor: business.
And so, , Is fractional work and remote
work a Venn diagram with complete overlap?
Is remote work a precursor
to doing fractional work?
Like, can you do
fractional work co located?
Probably not.
I think probably, I think it's very hard.
I think it could be hard.
Philip: I don't know.
I think that if you look at kind
of legacy models like lawyers or
something, like I would go to the
office of my lawyer in New York City.
And so I do think that cities can
start to become a little bit of
like an in person social network.
People that are prioritizing
that, but I don't
Taylor: know.
You would go to the office of your
lawyer for a meeting, for example.
Philip: Yeah, but we
would like grab lunch.
And like, it's like.
Yeah, yeah,
Taylor: yeah, yeah, yeah.
So like, that's.
That's totally fair.
Like, you know, if you're doing fractional
work and you live in New York City and
your clients are in New York City, there
are, you know, tons of benefits to being
able to, um, you know, to meet in person.
One of my fractional clients actually
was a big proponent of like, um, even
though she's hiring fractional, like
she wants those folks in New York
for that, for that reason, um, So
I think that makes a lot of sense.
Philip: I've been thinking about
that with this designer we've hired
where maybe future designers, I
want them to be in New York city.
And we meet once a week for
lunch to kind of talk through
in talk through ideas, right?
Just like, that's kind of like a part
of the science, just kind of like
thinking of having discussions, right?
This is kind of like, I was
at the university effect.
I was thinking about, uh, I forgot what
I was listening to some podcasts talking
about university professors that leave.
Uh, the university and how their ideas
start to become less kind of refined.
So like maybe you end up with a paper
about aliens or something like that.
And the kind of effect of the
university is kind of, uh,
getting feedback from peers.
So I do think that how you get
feedback from peers does impact a
lot of roles within knowledge work.
And sometimes the feedback can be like
pull requests and code and like more
structure, but I think that sometimes
unstructured feedback is really hard
. Taylor: So, like, so right now, uh,
I have a team member in Argentina.
I have two team members in Nigeria and
one team member in the Dominican Republic.
Philip: Yeah.
Taylor: Take the guy to DR for example.
Like, um, so he's an engineer.
And he is one of the, um,
probably like one of those like best
possible fits for what I need to do
out of anyone I can possibly think of.
It would have been hard for me to
draw up an even better profile.
That's awesome.
He's, you know, it's a
pretty critical role, right?
Sure, I would love if he
was in New York, right?
The budget wouldn't work, for starters.
But forgetting, like, the
Fantasyland, like, he's not.
And I think it's to my benefit
to, and I think I know it's to my
benefit to hire him anyway, right?
And so, Um, I, it's, this is
something that really excites me.
Like the idea that like, I'm no
longer or like a company, like a
founder is no longer restricted by
the talent near them and instead
can access the global talent pool.
Um, and I think there's a lot
of advantages to that, you know?
And so like, um, maybe at some point
in the future, keep in mind a big
part of my logic right now is the
fact that I'm bootstrapping and like,
this needs to be a very low budget
operation, at least in the beginning.
And so I'm actually like, I
really can't hire from someone
that lives in New York City.
Um, but I wonder like as, hopefully
as the company grows and evolves,
like I don't, I'm not sure if
that perspective will change much.
I think, you know, it's, I think it's
more likely than not that I would still
favor hiring remote or just hiring the
best talent wherever the hell they are.
Philip: Well, you introduced me to this
idea from the paradox of choice of people
that choose good enough versus people.
Oh yeah.
This is the, um, uh,
the maximum maximizers
Taylor: for satisficers.
Yeah.
Philip: I think that there's a
layer of that in here too, which is.
Call it like the big fortune
500s have a level of just
looking for good enough people.
You meet this talent
bar, you join the team.
Whereas what you're talking about
here is searching for the best.
And looking at what you're saying
through the lens of the maximizers.
I think the startups that they're
always trying to find the absolute
best talents that they can.
And my read on this is that fractional
work enables you to access the best
talent and start working with them,
especially because employment is such a
bureaucratic process to start or leave.
Interviews take weeks.
There's a lot of politics involved
besides just pure skill to get a job.
And like leaving a job is a big deal.
It's not a good thing on the resume.
If you don't just Stay at one place for a
long time and work with just those people.
And I think that fractional work appeals
to the highest skill talent who wants
to optimize their careers, optimize the
things they're working on and get like
a breadth of experience while being
available to kind of these clients
that wants access to really high skill
people without the overhead bullshit of.
interviews and interview panels
and all these different things.
Taylor: Uh, you've reminded me of
another amazing benefit of fractional,
uh, hiring fractional is the interview
process with a lack of, right?
So, um, as both the hirer and, uh,
the talent, you're incentivized
to start a relationship quickly or
much more quickly than if it was a
full time role for a few reasons.
And that's like, so, okay, so, uh, If
you're a company hiring, right, and
you're hiring for a full time role,
you're running a pretty in depth interview
process generally, in part because you
want to be like extra sure that this
person is going to be a great fit.
I think it's hard to fire them.
Exactly.
And it's hard to, so like there's
repercussions on making a wrong decision.
Also, um, as, uh, with respect to the
talent themselves, like you're generally
recruiting them from another full
time job, they have to quit their job.
Right.
So like, I mean, hopefully someone who's
well, well meaning and well intended
does not want to convince you to join
a company and then it's not a fit.
And then now you're
out of a full time job.
I mean, it's a terrible situation.
Whereas with fractional work, like you
can start a relationship for 10 hours
a week and the, the, the fractional is,
you know, has capacity presumably, right.
Or maybe they can stretch a little bit to
make it work, but you can just get started
more quickly and find out much more
quickly if this is a long term fit or not.
We talk about how like interview
process is , it's terrible.
Like we, we make bad decisions all the
time when hiring, like, you're not going
to, like, I think a lot of us have learned
that like interviewing is a terrible
way to assess someone's, uh, fit in the
company as opposed to just doing work.
Philip: I'm, that was one of my
biggest takeaways from Moonlight.
My last company was just try working
with people, but on the other side, I
think it also gets rid of a lot of the
paternalistic controls of employment.
And like.
We work with a fractional engineer
who said he wants to go take a few
weeks to bicycle around Norway.
And if he was an employee, I would
have to, you know, pull out the book
and say, well, you get two weeks
of PTO and you've already requested
one for the holidays in December.
And so, you know, you owe me, but I think
the fractional work is just way more
fluid where if he wants to go bicycle in
Norway for a few weeks, I, I want a heads
up so I can do some planning around it,
but I can also backfill and hire really
quickly and test with some other people.
And so it also just feels for the
talent side, way less like the, the
lack of rigid controls means that
you have a lot more autonomy to
Taylor: totally
Philip: treated like an adult.
Like there we go.
Right.
I feel like you're treated like an adult.
If you have to ask someone to.
Take a couple of days for yourself
or to go on a trip or something.
It's isn't like Yeah,
can I can I please have
Taylor: permission to
spend a week in my family?
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
Philip: Yeah, or like
oh I love my children.
Am I please allowed to
spend some time with them?
yeah, no, like you can just kind of
manage and I think that you're you
have to communicate which is always
the reality of the difficulties of
workplaces is communication, but Yeah,
so yeah, if you're saying, you It's
easier to hire, just work with them.
And I think that that is also a
really big benefit to the talents
that people can kind of come and
go, you know, within reason to, and
a little bit more of a fluid way.
So what
do you think it takes to get companies
to start hiring fractionals more?
I mean, obviously you're kind of, you're
saying like, well, I'm bootstraps.
I kind of need to do this, but I
think that's actually underplaying the
way that kind of some of the bottoms
up innovation happens, which is.
Some of these early adopters that
kind of need it but are Uh thinking
of new interesting lower cost ways to
do things Like I think that that is
one valid path But what do you think
it'll take to go from kind of the
indie fringe to being more mainstream?
So
Taylor: short answer is I don't know
and i'd love to know the answer.
And so, uh interested to hear more
your thoughts here I like I from my
point of view what I can share is
that Uh, the companies that we work
with today, that we have traction
with, are already familiar with the
concept of fractional, uh, and are
already, uh, reasonably bought into it.
Like, I don't think I've even tried,
or I've definitely not been successful
at working with a company that, uh,
Um, I had to first convince that like,
yeah, and that like, it's basically
like, like, and like, again, because
I'm starting, I'm, I'm six months in.
Right.
So I'm starting with the lowest
hanging fruit, which are those that
have already expressed interest.
They want to hire a fractional.
Um, I have a lot of ambitions and,
um, hopefully plans to, uh, appeal to
wider and wider, you know, kinds of
companies, uh, the messaging of which
I'm on clear on, frankly, like, yeah.
Um, I think, um, you know,
What is it going to take?
What, what do you think?
Philip: I don't know, because I sold
my remote work startup Moonlights
in January, 2020, not realizing
that remote work is going to have
this black swan moment of COVID.
I don't think we're going to
have a black swan moments in
fractional quite like that.
Although I was wrong
about remote work too.
But I think that what I see as a
general trend in tech with the Facebook
layoffs, the X layoffs by Elon Musk is.
shift in management attitude where in
the past management was incentivized in
this abundance era of higher nonstop.
And if you hire enough people,
you'll get a promotion.
And so you have the managers who
hired enough people to become an
associate director who hired people
to become a director, to become a VP.
And so there was this era of.
Abundance of just hiring at all costs
without having to think about the costs.
But now I think that since the recent
kind of downturn, we're seeing more
movement towards managers having to
care about PNL and capital efficiency.
And so maybe my question for you is on
the people you've seen hiring fractional.
Is it a pattern that they're the
people who are not just having to do
the work but have to care about the
capital efficiency of the company
Taylor: I I tend to work like,
uh, almost everyone I work with
are our ceos or founders and
so By basically by definition.
Yes.
They are.
Yeah very much thinking about the
capital efficiency of the company.
Um, and that is Y Um, and that
is, uh, inspire, you know,
that is what is inspiring them.
There's another, like, in fact, I'm
reminded of a, of a, a conversation
I had today with A CEO, uh, who
was looking to hire a, um, a
fractional ML AI engineer and.
Within the first few minutes the call
what he says to me is like I I have two
options I can either go out and hire a
full time like junior mlai engineer Um,
or I can go out and hire a you know,
very senior person for the same salary
for 10 hours a week And I would prefer
to hire that senior person because
I have more trust that they will be
able to do it right in the first Time
Philip: yeah,
Taylor: uh, and so that's less of a
budget budget is always a constraint in
some ways but that's less that one was
less of a budget constraint and more
of like, uh, I You I just want access
to senior talent within a certain,
you know, the most senior talent
I can get within a certain budget.
Uh, and it's funny because
like that's my pitch.
Like he just basically said the pitch
back to me and I was like, oh wow, you get
Philip: it.
Yeah.
That makes a ton of sense because
when you're making an initial hire on
something, it's really hard to thread the
needle of finding someone that is, Not
so junior that they can't do work alone,
but not someone that is so senior that
they stopped doing the work themselves.
And that's a really difficult thing.
Like we were hiring for a designer.
It's really hard to find a designer
who can operate autonomously, but it's
still used to doing day to day work.
And I think that that's what the
fractional work I'm really seeing
is where people are succeeding is
these individual contributors who
could have leveled up to management,
but stayed individual contributor.
And instead of trying to manage
other people, instead can
really focus on their craft.
But the, that's becoming really
valued in the market, right?
It's in the past.
If you were a good engineer, companies
would say, you're so good at writing code,
you should stop writing code and try to
get some people who are not as good at you
to do better, meaning become a manager.
Um, but I think that there is a path
where management is not as important.
For a variety of reasons, that's a
bigger discussion, but where individual
contributor skills are valued more highly.
And I think we just as a knowledge
where community didn't value the
outsized impact of a really good
individual contributor and sent them
down the management path just because
of the incentives that were set up.
But I think that with fractional
work, you're starting to see that
the market is kind of saying, I
care about these people and we need
them outside of just big companies.
It's.
We need them at smaller companies.
Taylor: I think this concept exists
in the full time world as well.
Um, with the concept of like
principal engineers, for example.
And I think it's probably most mature in
the engineering function because probably
because, uh, engineers, some of them
are very vocal about not wanting to do
management, whereas in other functions,
I guess, like you just think of, Oh
yeah, I got my marketing function, like
eventually I'm going to become a manager.
And like, that's, I guess there's less
pushback about it, but in the engineering
world, it's like you have principal
engineers or staff level engineers, right?
That are like the highest level,
you know, I see you can be in.
And although I don't know, you know, like
the intricacies of the comp structures,
I know that a lot of them are paid the
same or even potentially more than, than
their, even their managers, which is wild.
It's, but it's quite cool to your point.
Like it is, it is probably a better,
um, way of valuing contribution
because they're like, there
are few things better than like.
Someone who's incredible at their
craft, actually doing the work.
Philip: And their lifestyle on that
path as an IC, as an individual
contributor, is so different than
their path would be on a manager.
Because if you're a manager, you're
dealing with communication in a lot
of ways as your job and having to
deal with a lot of, um, Politics
and communication and meetings
and stuff like that and paperwork.
Whereas as an IC, you're living way
more of the lifestyle of the writer in
the shed who can kind of just focus on
their craft and think about one thing.
And that brings a sense of mastery.
And I think that it's really, A clear
path to mastery and that icy path that
a lot of people don't want to give up.
Taylor: You remind me of a common story
that I hear of why some types of folks are
trying to break into the fractional world.
So this is the archetype of
this person is someone who has
leveled up in their career.
They have gone the management path.
is what either they were told to do,
or they thought they wanted to do.
Let's take the engineering
track, for example.
So they're an engineering manager,
and they freaking hate it.
And they don't want to
do it anymore, right?
They want to get back into, you
know, you know, with their hands,
and start, um, AKA being an IC again.
But they are also so s Relatively
at least senior in their career.
They're making, you know,
quite a lot of money.
Let's say, you know in like, uh,
middle management type role, you know
at facebook They don't really see
themselves or identify with someone
that's going to go back to like a
senior engineer title at a company
I guess a full time employee, right?
So they see an opportunity for
themselves to pick up fractional work
do the ic work as a fractional, right?
But now you're a fractional engineer.
You're not a full time engineer.
And that does have like
a cachet with it, right?
That, um, you are a business owner
now, you're constructing your life.
And so it's like, it comes with a certain,
uh, premium, I suppose, that allows
people to adopt it and, and like, feel
proud about getting back on the IC train.
Philip: I think that's what you're,
what you're describing there to
me, I would describe as autonomy.
It's knowing that you can fire
the client and as an employee,
you can quit your job, that's.
The incentives are just so different.
It's so different.
Yeah.
So wrapping up here,
what is your vision of the future
of work with fractional work?
And what is your pitch to companies
about what they're missing out on
by not hiring fractionals right now?
Taylor: So let's start with the vision
question and I'll probably just bring it
back to something that I said earlier,
which is I, I imagine the future of
knowledge work When we think about
what those hiring conversations look
like, it's going to look like, uh,
every single hire, your, um, companies
are asking themselves the question.
Actually, here's an
interesting way of framing it.
Okay, so, um, I think historically,
companies have, Especially
in the Zerp era, right?
Where you have capitalism,
capital is infinite, right?
And your goal is to like
deploy capital, hire people.
The way that companies tend to think
or tended to think was, okay, I have a
need for, um, a type of marketing role.
Let me go out and hire, um, a
candidate to fill that role full time.
Yeah.
Uh, and now my job is to
fill that person's plate
with 40 hours a week of work.
Like, I, I have a need
for a marketing role.
I'm going to hire for that,
I'm going to hire that person.
That person's going to be W2 full time.
And now my job is to make sure
they are productive enough
that it sort of justifies the
fact that they are full time.
So they're going to, I'm going to make
sure I'm just giving them work, right?
Even if it's busy work, even if it's
not the most productive work, but
like you're full time at the company,
like I better make use of you, right?
Versus the opposite.
The, uh, yes, exactly the opposite
framework or, uh, and this is what I
think of as the future to answer your
question of like my vision for the future
is that instead of thinking that way,
I, and this may also answer the second
question, which is how I think companies
should think, but it is, um, okay, I have
a need for a role, like a marketing role,
for example, what exactly is that need?
How much, what am I willing
to invest into that need?
How many, let's say hours
a week is that need for?
Are we talking like part, you know, are
we talking like quarter time, right?
10 hours a week or like, what is like the
ideal amount of investment into that role?
And if I come out of that, um,
process with this being a full
time role, then great, go hire a
full time director of marketing.
But if I come out of that process
and decide that like, actually the
ideal feels like someone very senior
at 10 hours a week, let's say.
Yeah.
And like, it's not even like a question.
It's just like that.
That's just part of the, um, the equation.
Yeah.
Um, for every single
role is how it should be.
It's just a mindset shift of like not
every role has to be a full time role
Um and like instead let me just approach
this from first principles and say
What, as a founder, as a CEO, as a a
capital allocator, what is the ideal
investment that I wanna make in terms
of time, money, you know, et cetera.
Yeah.
And then whatever the output of that is,
is what I, is what I do, and I now have a
spectrum of options available to me as a
result of fractional work where I can hire
someone for, you know, 15 hours a week.
Totally.
Philip: I would summarize
that then as why hire?
Generalists when you can hire a
bunch of different specialists.
Oh,
Taylor: that's cool, too.
Yeah, okay.
I that that definitely feels like
an important And this by the way
is coming as a generalist So but I
think that that feel that resonates
definitely like you can that you
know Divvy up the role into different
more specialist type roles for sure.
Yeah,
Philip: but I think that I'm using
generalist and specialist in the sense
of Having one person, having people
work on one thing for the work, but that
person could be a generalist strategy.
Work is all about being general, right?
It's kind of management is about
thinking about the trade offs of
building versus buying versus all these
different things at the same time.
But like that person's role can
be very specialized of your job
is just to focus on this feature.
Your job is for the social media person
to just manage a Twitter account.
Yeah.
Even the person is a generalist.
The role can be really specialized.
Taylor: Good point.
Absolutely.
Philip: And.
For companies, what are they missing
out on by not hiring fractional?
Taylor: Several things are coming to mind.
One that is like screaming at me is
like just access to a certain caliber
of talent that I just don't think
you'll get access to otherwise, or
it's much harder to get access to.
Like I, I have the benefit of seeing
very intimately, uh, you know,
the 6, 000, the 6, 000 folks in
the fractional jobs network alone.
And, um, It is, it's hard for me to under,
it's hard for me to overstate rather how
incredible this talent is and, uh, how
excited, ready, eager, and willing they
are to work for, let's say early stage
startups or growth state startups, uh,
and, uh, be incredible contribution to the
company, uh, on a fraction of their time.
Um, and if, I think if more companies
realize that like virtually every time.
I don't want to oversell it.
So like, but almost really almost
every time that I send a hirer, a
batch of candidates, uh, that we've
shortlisted for them, the response
is something to the effect of like,
this is incredibly impressive or
holy cow, you know, et cetera.
And if more companies understood that,
um, this talent is available to them, I
think, uh, I would be drowning in more
than I already am drowning in work.
Philip: That's my takeaway too, is.
concept of fractional work,
a lot of really exceptional
talent seems to be wanting it.
And so if you're seeking
exceptional talent.
You would be missing out if you weren't
considering fractional candidates.
Taylor: Exactly.
And so similar to the remote work from
just a few years ago, the remote work
world, like, uh, you know, you would be,
uh, it is, it is a mistake for companies
to think they can only hire from within
their geographic location, right?
You're missing out on so
much incredible talent.
Philip: Absolutely.
Well, thank you for
having this chat today.
Where can people find Fractional Jobs
and anything else you want to talk about?
Taylor: Uh, sure.
So, uh, it's just fractionaljobs.
io is the website.
Uh, you can find me on
LinkedIn, uh, Taylor Crane.
I know there's no like handles on
LinkedIn, which is unfortunate.
Yeah.
Uh, on Twitter, it's, uh, Tay,
letter K, and then Crane as well.
Um, yeah, that's it.
Philip: If there's like a hiring
manager out there who says, I
wasn't really considering this.
I don't know if I'm really a fit
for this, but would maybe have the
curiosity to just try it out, even
if they're not fully committed.
Would you be okay if that person,
like, can that person come to
Fractional Jobs and still talk to you?
A hundred
Taylor: percent, yeah.
And so, like, our model is
very welcoming of that, right?
Like, I, uh, it's totally free
to engage, uh, a search with us.
Uh, you only pay if you make a hire.
Uh, and I relish the opportunities
to talk to, to folks and, like, show
them the benefits of Fractional.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'd be very excited
about that actually.
. Philip: Awesome.
Well, thanks for coming on the
show and, uh, catch you later.
Taylor: Thanks for having me.