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Tap to send me your reflections ♡ My guest today is the optimistic and courageous Jo Moseley. Water lover, stand-up paddle boarder (SUP), author of a bestselling book and creator of an award winning tiny film. I love the double meaning in today's title, because I see that through her adventures, Jo really has stood-up for herself, and for all women in mid-life. She embodies the joy of adventure, solo travel and ageing well. We talk of experiences that were deeply challenging in her p...
Tap to send me your reflections ♡
My guest today is the optimistic and courageous Jo Moseley. Water lover, stand-up paddle boarder (SUP), author of a bestselling book and creator of an award winning tiny film.
I love the double meaning in today's title, because I see that through her adventures, Jo really has stood-up for herself, and for all women in mid-life. She embodies the joy of adventure, solo travel and ageing well.
We talk of experiences that were deeply challenging in her past and how in 2016, she first stepped onto a paddleboard. And then proceeded to paddleboard 162 miles coast to coast across Britain. She wrote her first book at 57 and now, on the tipping point of 60, is about to publish her second.
She's a gorgeous soul who shares her story with compassion and courage. We speak of:
I also share the poem, Fluent, by John O'Donoghue - it feels resonant here.
I would love to live
Like a river flows
Carried by the surprise
Of its own unfolding
This episode has a transcript.
To connect with Jo https://www.jomoseley.com/ or Instagram @jomoseley
REFERENCES
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A space to settle in and listen, and see where the episode takes you. This inspiring, reflective podcast is an invitation to travel deeper, with compassionate self-enquiry.
Henny shares insights from her own life, alongside practices that help us connect with our inner wisdom, explore our relationship with change and find a greater sense of flow. Henny believes we all hold our own answers, so there are no one-size-fits-all solutions here. This is a space to be with what’s true for you, and to grow from there.
If you’re drawn to slowing down, listening in, and exploring what it means to live with greater authenticity, this podcast is for you. Guided by psychology, mindfulness, therapeutic coaching, flow journaling, and everyday compassion, we explore ideas that help us step further into our inner worlds, in order to shape the changes we seek in our outer worlds.
Henny Flynn: Water lover, stand
up paddle border author of a
best selling book and creator of
an award winning tiny film. Joe
Mosley embodies the joy of
adventure, solo travel and
ageing. Well, I can't wait to
introduce you to her so you too
can hear how she embodies these
principles in her life and in
the way that she shares her
philosophy.
Welcome to the Henny Flynn
podcast, the space for deepening
self awareness with profound
self compassion. I'm Henny, I
write, coach and speak about how
exploring our inner world can
transform how we experience our
outer world, all founded on a
bedrock of self love. Settle in
and listen and see where the
episode takes you. In the poem,
fluent, the poet John
O'Donoghue, writes, I would love
to live like a river flows
carried by the surprise of its
own unfolding these words,
remind me of Joe, my guest
today. So Joe, it is an absolute
delight to have you here really
is I have loved watching your
messages unfold on Instagram,
and I'm so I can't even remember
how I first became aware of you.
But yeah, I just think you have
such a lovely sense of
positivity around you. It feels
really wonderful to be welcoming
you. Oh,
Unknown: thank you. I think it
could have been that I listened
to one of your podcasts and just
said, Oh, I love that. I think
that must have been it. And I
don't know how I find your
podcasts. I do listen to a lot
of podcasts and always get oh,
this is interesting. And so it
could well have been that and
then this message to you because
I'm very much about if I
listened to a podcast or read a
book, I want to tell the author,
the podcaster that I enjoyed it.
I think it's just as an author,
myself and a podcaster. Myself,
I think that makes such a
difference. So I think that that
could have been how we
connected. I think that's what I
think.
Henny Flynn: I think that that
is it, Joe and I've got a I have
a memory now of getting your
message and yes, so that's such
a lovely such a lovely gift to
extend out into the world
actually that gift of
recognition and acknowledgement
and what a lovely, lovely
beginning to our conversation.
So, so I I know that you are
known for the the experiences
that you have gathered, whilst
paddleboarding was doing stand
up paddleboarding. But I also
know from listening to you, and
from reading what you write that
it is, there is such a purpose
that sits inside the you know
the messages that you share as
well. And I'd love to as we go
through the conversation to kind
of, you know, dip a little bit
deeper into that. First of all,
I would really love to hear what
first got you onto a
paddleboard, like, what was it
that first helped you? You know,
I mean, it feels a bit nerve
wracking to me the idea I have
done it. But you know, that sort
of moment where you first get on
and you stand up. So talk talk
to us about that.
Unknown: Yes, thank you. So it
was I remember the date really
was the 24th of September 2016,
so almost eight years ago. And
essentially, I injured my knee.
I'd gone away for the weekend,
earlier that year in the January
and I'd come home on crutches.
And I had found that I had just,
you know, felt very low,
obviously the pain. I mean, it
was very temporary. It was just
a few months but the pain sort
of knocked my spirits and I
found that I was too when I
walked I was hanging my head,
you know in that kind of Oh woe
is me kind of way. And I decided
in the September of that year
that I would set myself a little
challenge I have these little
challenges that I always have to
keep setting myself at I wish I
didn't, but they just sort of
helped me along in life. And so
the first of September, I set
myself a challenge called rain
or shine 30, which was
basically, every day for 30
minutes, I would be outside
being active, I knew that being
active would help. I knew that
walking or any activity would
help strengthen my knee again,
as it was healing. And I knew it
would help my mood. I just, you
know, I just knew that and, and
so I took this paddleboarding
lesson on Derwent water in the
Lake District. And I always say
that for the first time, in
months and months, I felt like a
warrior not to worry, like
literally like, wow, because
worrying is my natural default
position. So, it always has
been, but I felt like a warrior.
And I still feel that way. You
know, every time I go out on
paddleboard, it's like, wow, you
know, it's just a real feeling
of confidence. And, yeah, that's
how I started. So came from
really being injured and wanting
to do something about it. And it
was both a physical healing and
I guess, emotional healing as
well. It
Henny Flynn: really just sound
that and I love the I love the
play on words from worrying to
warrior. But also, I have this
very strong sense of the
physicality of really like being
in your body. And Holding,
holding your ground, even though
you're on water. There's
something very resonant about
that.
Unknown: Yeah, and there is a
lot to be said for that in terms
of, you've probably watched the
Amy Cuddy TEDx about sort of
standing, you know, and I know
there's sort of debate about all
that and everything. But I do
genuinely believe that, that
that posture where you're sort
of just standing there, just you
know, your head up, you're
looking straight to the horizon,
your, your your core is working
over time, you've got your
balance and strength. And it's
really interesting, because I'm
looking at some of the photos
for the book. In my first book
about paddleboarding, I didn't
really feature very much because
I was a photographer taking
photos, but this time because it
was based in the Lake District,
rather than all around the
country, I am featured in the
book a lot more, which wasn't
really to my taste, but you
know, that's what the publishers
wanted. And, and I so I get to
see a lot of pictures of myself.
And as someone who has in the
past struggled with, you know,
body image, like so many women,
you know, my age and younger,
sadly, there's nowhere to hide,
you know, when you see pictures
on Instagram, people can turn
their bodies and they can twist
and, you know, put their knee in
a certain way and put their hand
in a certain way. And, you know,
this is you know, this classes
on how to present a bottle a
better sort of shape on on your
social media. Well, you just
don't get that on a panel. It's
like head on, here's me or side
on here's my bomb, here's my
cellulite, you know, and, and
it's funny because on the water,
I just, I forget the worries
that I have on land about how my
body might look, the minute I
put my, my hat on, you know, my
my neoprene or my dry suit
trousers, it's like, this is
uniform, this is safety kit. And
what I look like somehow floats
away, you know, literally floats
away. So it's, it's really
interesting that that standing
on the board gives you that
sense of confidence.
Henny Flynn: There's, there's
something in there that speaks
to me of, of being in flow. I
mean, we're using lots of water
words, I also noticed through
the language, but there's
something about that sense of
almost like a kind of meditative
state because when we're, when
we're in flow, we're not
thinking about well, how do I
how do I look when I'm
meditating? Or how do I, when
I'm creating a piece of art? It
feels like that, that
reconnection with your whole
self is yeah, you know, it feels
very potent as I'm listening.
Yeah.
Unknown: Yeah, it definitely
does. Yeah, it does. It has just
struck me looking at the photos
that, you know, if I was
standing like that on land, I
might be thinking, oh, you know,
but somehow being on the water,
it's like, I'm on it in a
different space. And the rule
the same rules don't apply. So
yeah, it's
Henny Flynn: interesting.
There's something about I love
the kind of the idea of being
self conscious. And you know,
when We normally think about
being self conscious. It's kind
of it's a, it's a negative
thing. It's like, oh, people are
looking at me, what do they
think? Whereas when we flip it
on its head and become self
conscious, in this very
beautiful, compassionate way,
then those external perceptions
stop mattering so much. And I
hear that in a lot of kind of
how you talk about the
adventuring that you've done and
the adventure of publishing your
first book, which was a couple
of years ago, I think. Yeah.
Unknown: 2022 Yeah. Yeah.
Henny Flynn: And so that's that
adventure and being willing to
take that kind of risk feels.
Feels like it's sort of part of
what you learned when you first
got on the paddle board. Oh,
yeah.
Unknown: Oh, yeah, definitely.
Yeah. So the first book about
paddle boarding was an is the
first and only book dedicated,
dedicated to paddle boarding
around the country, including
England, Scotland and Wales, one
chap had done a paddleboarding
book about Scotland. And other
people have done books that
include canoeing and kayaking,
because that all sports that
this was the first and still is
the first book only dedicated to
paddle boarding. So that was
like a huge risk. That was a big
leap of faith that I had to take
the publishers on. And then, you
know, the Adventure World is
great, but there are still some
gatekeepers that you know, why
should a middle aged woman, you
know, have the audacity to write
a book about paddleboarding? How
is that possible? And also, the
style of my book is very
different to other guidebooks.
It's, I have a lot of narratives
I talk about. So in the second
book, I talk about glimmers as
listening to a podcast of yours
yesterday about glimmers you
know, it's not all, you know,
distances and safety. There's
lots of that. Lots of that. But
there's also glimmers and
stories and emotional things in
the book. So again, I broke a
few barriers, which doesn't
always sit well with everybody.
And but it did really well. But
I can honestly say it was very
terrifying. And so why would I
go and do it again? I really
don't know. With the second
book, but yeah, I the adventure
of writing a book is definitely
up there with all adventures. I
think it's it's very much a book
from the heart as well.
Henny Flynn: And I get a sense
that it's something that you've
always wanted to do that. It's a
it's been there's been the book
has been gestating inside you.
Yeah. And then yeah.
Unknown: Yeah, I mean, I never
thought it would be a book about
paddleboarding. I, you know,
I've tried novels in the, in the
past and never really got I
didn't know what it would be
about. But yes, it feels like
it's brought a lot of things
together. And yeah, yeah, it's
brought, you know, I went to
some extraordinary places and
very special places. And I was
able to share my own personal
journey a little bit through the
book, which suited me because I
could share enough but it wasn't
all about me. I don't want it
all. You know, I've shared other
people's stories and that feels
really right. Because I love
cheerleading. I think I always
wanted to be a cheerleader, you
know, but we didn't really have
that in the UK, did we? You
know, I think I want to always
to share other people and
cheerlead their stories. So it's
a nice mixture. It's enough
about me, but not too much that
it would I would feel awkward
and I can share and talk about
other people too. So yeah, yeah,
you're right,
Henny Flynn: I see that I see
that balance in you the
willingness to kind of share
your own story and, and the
courage that that there is
within that as well, because I
think it's very easy. For
someone standing on the outside
to go, Well, that's easy for
her, she knows she knows how to
do X, whatever x is, in this
case, recording, she knows how
to write and to not really
understand that. It is an act of
courage. It is an act of self
belief, racing into things that
are challenging, and and I just
want to I just wondered whether
there's sort of a thread here
that you recognise you've been
sort of working toward, in terms
of accessing your courage or
something that you can see or
Yes, there have been these
courageous points through my
life, but now I can see them
more clearly. I just
Unknown: I, so when when I had
already posted a case, we made a
film about it. And it's called
Brave Enough a journey came to
joy, you know, currently came
into that a lot. And that that
we, the filmmaker fritton. I
launched that in in lockdown
January through March 2021. And
it went really well online. And
it's been selected for
prestigious adventure festivals.
And it's one, you know, it's
amazing that to feel about a
middle aged woman should, you
know get onto these adventure
festivals. But there's this
there's a point in which I say
in the film, I've had bravery
forced upon me in life, but I've
never chosen to be brave. So I'm
a single mom, you know, you
don't become a mom, most people
don't become a single mom
without going through a fairly
difficult time with a divorce.
You know, divorces aren't
usually easy. So, you know,
there's been times when bravery
has been forced upon me when I
have had to get out of bed and
take my sons to school when I
didn't want to, you know, pull
the duvet down. When my mom
died, I you know, had to carry
on. So, I think that I've had
that bravery forced upon me and
paddleboarding coaster case was
the first time really in my
adult life, where I went, you
know, I'm gonna do something
it's not expected of me that
nobody thinks, or very few
people think they can do, it's
completely out of the blue for a
lot of people to think that I
would, you know, undertake a
journey across the country. But
I'm going to stick my head above
the parapet, and I'm going to
say, I'm going to do it without
knowing whether I can do it, you
know, getting to the start line.
And, and I did have people shoot
me down, you know, I did have
people telling me, I couldn't do
it beforehand. And whilst I was
on the water, I had people
telling me I couldn't do it. And
so I think that that comment
that I had said myself, that I
have had bravery forced upon me,
but I've never chosen to be
brave. And maybe I can just do
other brave things. That's how
we end the film. Maybe I can do
a brave things. And I guess that
was a real seed. But coming
really from you know, divorced,
single mum, being a single mom
looking after my dad, sort of,
you know, once Mama died looking
after the boys, so yeah, they
all contributed it contributed
to that sense that maybe I
would, you know, put myself my
head above the parapet again and
say, Look, I'd like to write
this book. It's not been done
before. Can I write it? So yeah,
Henny Flynn: there is a there's
an exercise that I sometimes do
with clients to help them see
the resources that they hold
inside themselves. And it's
called a curve. And, and we look
from then to now, whatever that
timeframe might be for them,
maybe back to childhood
adolescence. Yeah. Good to now
and plot moments of change and
see how much courage you then
draw a line up to denote how
much courage you had to draw on
in those moments? Yeah. And it
is fascinating to then observe,
well, what was it that I had to
get over? And what were the
resources, what helped me get,
we'll get through that. And then
we'll do another line coming
down to see and how much self
compassion was in that process,
too. And it helps us start to
then see well, going forward,
what are the resources that I
have inside me, because look at
this, look at all this stuff,
that I have navigated. And I'm
really minded at that as I
listen to you, you know, those,
those times when bravery was
thrust upon you. You dipped in
I'm guessing to a well of
resource that was in you. And
then in time in your life,
you're going, Oh, I've got this
well of resource that's inside
me. I can access that of my own
free will. And I think that's
what this energy is. I feel from
you, Joe, honestly, it's just so
it's so lovely. There is this
buoyant energy within you. I'm
very sad.
Unknown: Thank you. Yeah, you're
right. I mean, sometimes I will
be lying awake at night and
going, did I you know, did I
remember this about this
particular location on the map?
Or did I do this and then I have
to say to myself, Joe, you've
been through worse, you know,
you've been through worse this
is this is just fine, you know,
and had to talk myself out of
it. Because as I say, worry is
my natural inclination. And I
then have to talk myself out of
it and say, you know, think of
all the other times you've done
something And that you thought
you couldn't do. And a lot of it
comes back to divorce and being
a single mom that is, and always
will be my greatest adventure
being a single mom. And I write
that to my boys at the end of
the book. And, and divorce will
always be, I'm losing my mom
will always be the hardest
things ever that I do, I think
certainly so far in my life. So.
But yeah, we have, we all go
through these things, I think
and we forget just how brave we
are. And that we just somehow
find that courage within when we
need to when life throws
something really horrible
enters.
Henny Flynn: I'm really
thoughtful about that, that
compassion that you're talking
about showing yourself in those
moments, there was so. So like
you, I have published a couple
of books. And the very first one
ended up being with a guy that
I'd interviewed on the podcast.
And the reason why I interviewed
him was because he, he shared
something on Facebook saying
about his father's death. And he
said that he had come to realise
he was borrowing too much from
his future self. He was
borrowing as resources from his
future self. And he suddenly
realised that he had to repay
the debt, and he had nothing to
repay it with. Wow, I know. So.
I mean, it's a really lovely
episode, I'll share a link
actually, for anyone listening.
Unknown: Yeah, please, please
do.
Henny Flynn: But there is
something about this. Accessing
compassion in these times, which
means that we don't. We don't
like trap ourselves in the hard
place of resilience, when we are
able to come into the softer
place of compassionate
resilience. And, and that's what
it sounds like, that sounds like
something that you've really
embraced. Actually, in the
reading, you talk to yourself at
four in the morning when he is
talking about the spreads book.
Yeah, exactly. Or what
compassion means for you,
actually, yeah.
Unknown: And I always think I am
very compassionate with myself,
I think I demand more of myself
than I probably need to, I don't
know whether that's middle child
syndrome, or being a Capricorn
or being a child of the 70s, or
whatever. But all again, coming
back to a marriage where I
didn't always feel like I was
listened to or valued. And it
was often told that I didn't
necessarily have that much to
offer. So I, I don't think I am
compassionate. But I think as I
get older, I am learning to be
compassionate. So for example,
this year, my two words of the
year are foundation and
gentleness. And that's basically
because I'm 60. At the end of
this year, I wanted this year to
be a year of foundation, sort
of, you know, a lot of
decluttering in my life, a lot
of planning a lot of looking
after myself. But I didn't want
that foundation, because that
felt like work. I wanted
gentleness as well. And I wanted
to be kind to myself, and I
wanted to say I want to be able
to say no to things. If someone
says can you do this? And be
able to say no. And it's not
because I have anything else to
do is because I don't want to do
it. Or I don't want to be doing
anything that weekend. You know,
just because my time is free?
Doesn't mean I have to go out
and do stuff. Yeah, it could
just be I want to go and sit
with my dad and his cottage. And
watch you know, all those sort
of Agatha Christie fancy watches
on a on an afternoon because
actually, that is what I will
look back on. So my dad's 90
This 91 At the end of this in
September this year. And so you
know, those are the moments I'll
look back on when I'm not really
doing anything. But I'm doing so
much because I'm just sitting
there with my dad or my son's on
my sister. So yeah, that's where
I'm learning that compassion.
Because when you talked about
you sent me a few ideas, and
when you talked about self
compassion, I was like, I'm
really bad at that, but I'm
trying I'm really trying to be
better at it.
Henny Flynn: And I think in that
I hear this this acknowledgment
that we can learn compassion,
passion at any age, actually,
because, you know, it's, it's
something that again, you know,
clients will often sort of say
to me, like, Oh, God, how can I
only just be learning this at 50
or whatever, or at 65 I've you
know, and or, or at 30. Because
whatever age we are, it feels
like we ought to know it all by
now. But I think part of living
a more compassionate life is the
recognition that there is still
opportunity for us to learn new
things. I mean, that's volumes
in you know, your story. I mean,
just so wonderful, all these new
things. And, and there is
opportunity to, to learn about
ourselves. Kindly. You know,
yeah. And, and I also just want
to pick up so beautiful on what
you said about that. It's okay
to say no, and not have
something else that you have to
do instead, like, you can just,
I mean, God, like that is
freedom of that. I hear a kind
of collective sigh across
everyone listening? Ah, yeah.
Yeah. saying no, you know, yeah,
and not
Unknown: having it. And it's not
just having, you know, in the
past or so on. So I can't do
that. Because X Y, Zed, and
knowing itself is an answer. I
know that it's a full sentence.
But also, it's not that I have a
better off or, or something. I
just don't have any other offer
other than just doing nothing,
or just, you know, can't be
productive. But it's so
meaningful. Yeah, that's a big
lesson. But I think as well,
when we when you talk about your
client saying, How did I learn
this at 50? I mean, nobody gave
us any conversations like this
weren't happening when we were
growing up, were they, you know,
and my youngest son, who is
2024, at the end of this year.
He, I mean, he's been journaling
for 18 months. Now. He is He
journals every night. And
sometimes when I'm with him, and
he lives with my dad at the
moment, he's building a boat.
And sometimes I'll say, Johnny,
and he goes, nope, I'm writing
my journal. You know, like, he's
that disciplined, motivated,
whatever, you know, it, he's
found it to be incredibly
useful. But nobody talked to me
about journaling when I was 23.
Henny Flynn: No, we would I
think we would maybe have
written a diary. But no, not
necessarily understood. The
breadth and the depth that that
writing can travel, you know,
your container. Yeah, so you're
right. I mean, I think that's
one of my son's 23. And it's
interesting. It's, I can't I
don't know if he's ever
journaled. It's, it'd be. It's a
question. I'm now going to ask
him. But I am aware that he is
more aware than then then, you
know, my generation felt at his
age. And just, there was
something that he's remember he
was, I think he was still at
school, that sixth form sort of
college. And there were a bunch
of his mates around in the
kitchen. And we were upstairs in
bed, and they were making quite
a lot of noise. And I went
downstairs to go and say, Look,
you just keep Google quieter.
And so it's like walking up to
the kitchen door. I heard one of
them say, so what does your mom
do? And he said, Oh, well, she,
one of the things she does is
she helps women going through
menopause. And there was like,
oh, and then they just kind of
carried on talking. And I just
thought, a bunch of 16 year old
boys or 17 year old boys, it's
going oh, about menopause. That
was like, curious.
Unknown: She works. She works at
Waitrose.
Henny Flynn: So clean normals
work like menopause. So I think
you're right, you know, maybe
that's part of the reason why I
think this kind of conversation
is so wonderful now because we
we are more conscious of our
ability to think deeply and to
reflect in this way without
feeling so alien, perhaps might
have done for previous
generations. And that's sort of
that kind of speaks to another
question really around you know,
noticing the things that can get
in our way, you know, noticing
the things that can stop us
being correct. Or can stop us
Yeah, taking risks. Like what's
your All right, um, you talked
before about you had people
saying, well, what's a woman in
her 50s doing doing this? What
What was that like what what
helps you overcome those kinds
of resistances. So,
Unknown: when I first had so I
first had the idea to
paddleboard prom, Liverpool to
lead. So that's 128 miles. And I
had that about two months after
my first lesson, which was
Henny Flynn: just honour that,
so two months after this lesson,
I know what I can do, I can
Unknown: do something nobody
else has done. I had a couple of
years prior to that I had done a
bit a big fundraising challenge
in memory of my mum. So I'd
wrote a million metres and a
marathon in memory of Macmillan
came in for Macmillan Cancer
Support in memory of my mum. So
I do have a habit of going for
something really big that I can
then chop into little bits,
that's not fast, but I do big,
broken down into little bits, if
you see what I mean. So it
wasn't that unusual. But then it
was that point. So I told a few
people, you know, Christmas
party 2016. And then it was sort
of the response was, You're too
old, it's too boring. It's too
difficult. It's complex. But you
know, that key one is, you know,
it's too much for all one of
your age. And so in 2016, I did
put the dream away, you know,
and I put it away, not away
away, as I always say, like in
the back of your head, or like
in a little drawer in your
heart, you know that it's not
away, but it's just not really
on show. And really the two
things that made the difference
were that in from 2016 to 2019.
When I subsequently did it, I
lost a number of girlfriends,
you know, who died and only one
of them had reached 50. And they
were from different sort of
areas of my life, some sort of
school gate mums, others that
I'd known. So I was, you know,
in my own teens, and they were
all very vibrant, creative women
who, if you see them in the
streets, you'd go, Oh, that was
nice. I'm really glad I bumped
into her today. And I thought,
it's a cliche, but it's true
that life is just really short
and precious. And if you if you
have the inkling of a dream, you
need to give yourself the chance
to get to the start line. And
that's really what I needed to
do to get to, I just needed to
give myself a chance to get to
the start line. If it didn't
work out. At least I could say I
tried, you know, at least I
could try. And the other thing
was that my youngest was going
off to uni. And so I thought,
right, I'm going to be you know,
Billy Jones, you know, Jerry, no
mates, empty nester mom, and I
wanted to show them, that I
would be okay that I had this
other life beyond being a single
mum. And I very deliberately did
the coast to coast. So, at that
point, I thought, right, I'm
going to take that that dream I
had, you know, a few years ago,
instead of just going from
Leeds, from Liverpool to Leeds,
I'm going to go across the
country, so add on another 34
miles. And I think at that
point, like, nobody is going to
stop me now. I'd let somebody or
a few, you know, little whispers
and a few people and things that
they said, stop me from doing
something for three years. And I
just wasn't gonna let that
happen this time, you know, I
wanted to honour those
friendships, those those women
that I'd lost, show my boys, it
was gonna be okay, and just
honour that little dream, that I
could try something new, and get
to the start line. So I think
that was it. Really, it was the,
you know, the barriers were? Am
I good enough? What do other
people think, you know, is this
really selfish of me to sort of
carve out well, days for me, you
know, all those things as a mom.
But I knew the boys were fine.
The canal river trust actually
said, Could you do your trip at
the end of August? Because we're
actually opening up that
particular route that you're
going to do as the profit trail?
And it would be great to have
you do it at that point. And I
said, No, I'm really sorry, I
have to do it in July, because
in August, my son gets his a
level results. And so then we'll
be all into uni spur. So I have
to get it done. So it's not hard
to you know, weave around family
commitments. But I managed to
sort of but but the idea that I
would take 12 days to do
something for myself, did feel
really difficult. Really,
really.
Henny Flynn: I think you've just
tapped into something really key
And I don't know if it is gender
specific thing. Yeah. I think
it'd be quite easy for me to
say, Well, that sounds like a
classic sort of, yeah, sort of
challenge that a woman might
throw at herself. But I suspect
actually, it's probably, you
know, not gender specific. We
just might interpret it in a
slightly different way. Not all
women would feel the same, or
not all men would feel the same
way. But yeah, that thing about
honouring ourselves in such a
way that we say, I am worthy of
this time, I am worthy of this
attention. I'm worthy of of this
connection with something that I
really would love to do.
Unknown: You know that I'd love
to say those words.
Henny Flynn: It's so yeah, Joe.
It really is.
Unknown: Yeah, and I did
struggle with it. I think I
struggled with it the whole
time. I remember one time we
were on to my sister and my two
sons, and I have a WhatsApp
group. My dad's phone isn't
isn't, you know, clever enough
to be on WhatsApp. He doesn't
use his phone like that. We have
a little Whatsapp group. And,
you know, I would WhatsApp them
from from the river and chat to
them. So I kind of kept in
touch. But there were some times
I had to just sort of focus on
myself and it did feel it did
feel quite selfish.
Interestingly, now I'm
postmenopausal, like, don't feel
like kind of feel like that. I
feel a bit less selfish. I'd
feel sorry, I feel a bit less
concerned that I am being
selfish. I think I am a little
bit more like, well, you know,
my time is now. And I Yeah, it
does feel different. But there
was a an awful lot of and, you
know, the boys are older now. So
the time is different. But yeah,
I did struggle with, you know,
and I still do, I still do to
some extent, but I know that
they were okay. You know, they
were grown young men really? So
I think
Henny Flynn: I mean, there's so
many layers inside it as well.
There's cultural conditioning,
there's familial questioning,
you know, what did we learn in
our own childhood, there's,
there's the story about what
kind of parent we are, you know,
all of these things, they all
combine. But there's something
there's something about, I
think, part of this process of
coming through menopause and
sort of coming into moving
through the portal that
menopause can be, let's put it
that way. Yeah. Be about
stepping into a full adult self
stepping into the self that goes
there. Okay. And, and it's okay
for me to be okay. Yeah, you
know, rather than Oh, hang on, I
need to be so attached to their
okayness that my okayness falls
by the wayside.
Unknown: Now, yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. Yeah. God, that's
such a good way of Yeah, I'm
gonna write that down. Yeah. I
think I do get attached. Yeah. I
worry too much that what Yeah,
that's a really powerful
sentence, actually. But yeah, so
I do feel. And so when I started
skateboarding actually just
going on.
Henny Flynn: I never made it.
Like the best segway ever. So
anyway, when I started
skateboarding, alright, Joe,
come on.
Unknown: I started skateboarding
in in December last year, and
knew that people would sort of
say, really, at your age, and I
just was not going to entertain
it. Just it was never going to
be a conversation. And nobody's
actually said that. I've had a
few sort of, like, my dad's
like, you know, you're wearing a
helmet and everything, aren't
you? But nobody has said I can't
do it because I think I must
just have this aura of you're
just not going to question me
now. It's just not gonna happen.
And yeah, and I love it. But
it's absolutely right. Now
Henny Flynn: you go you go say
it's absolutely but
Unknown: but it's absolutely the
most mindful thing I have ever
done because it like into. I
wrote a little post about it on
my Instagram last night. It's
like going to a spa for two
hours because you cannot think
of anything else. I don't know
whether the So you've all ages
are there. And I don't know
whether the children who are
literally 678 years old, but
zooming here, there and
everywhere with complete
fearlessness. I don't know
whether they can think of other
things at the same time as
skating. But I can't, if I
cannot let my mind wander, and
my mind does not want to wander
and all the voices in my head
that are saying can't do this,
or you know what's on the
shopping list? Or you haven't
done this? Or oh, you must tell
your editor this or what about
that? What problem here, there
and there, it gets cut out. And
all you focus on is moving that
little skateboard up and down a
little ramp. And trying to turn
it on for two hours is like, for
me, the closest thing I've ever
had to like a really amazing
meditating, kind of experience.
Wow.
Henny Flynn: Yeah, I got I can
feel it. I can feel it in my
bodies as incredible. And
Unknown: you're so in your body
at the same time as well.
Henny Flynn: Yeah, when I it's,
it's really interesting that
there are a couple of threads
from that, that that show up for
me. One is, knowing that this
time around learning
skateboarding, you had this
stance of absolute, I'm doing
this. Yeah, if you could speak
to the woman that you were in
2016, who had the idea, but
going from Leeds to Liverpool
was at that point party at
Christmas time. whisper in her
ear.
Unknown: I think it would be you
have everything within you that
you need already to be able to
do this. There's nothing that
you don't have already. You just
need to give yourself the chance
to try it I'm very much about
I'm never about being the
fastest, the strongest, the
best, the biggest, you know, I'm
just not. I'm very much at the
early stages of everything. I'm
very much sort of in in
paddleboarding in writing in
anything I do. I'm very much the
person at the door that says
come in and try it. I think that
goes back to my mum, because my
mum would always say, if a new
little girl comes to school,
you'd be the one that holds out
your hand and says, Come and
join us over here. You know, and
I think that's where I get this
from, that I want to be the
person that says, paddleboarding
is really good. Come and join
us, you know, come for. And I do
that through my words, and my
posts and my skateboarding. And
it's like, just come and do it.
You don't have to be good. I'm
not good. But I'm good enough,
obviously to write books, but
I'm not good at skateboarding.
But I'm good enough to say it's,
it's really fun, come and join
us. And I think that that's
where I'm at, I'm never going to
be the person at the top of the
mountain saying well look at me,
because I'm just not that.
That's not what that but I'm
very much at the door saying
come on in. And I think it comes
back to that thing that my mom
would always say is just go if
there's a new little girl, go
and say to her, come and play
with us, like literally come and
play with play with us in the
playground. And I think that's
where I sit within sports and
adventure. As the person that
says just come and join us. It's
it's going to be okay. So
Henny Flynn: honestly, that's
nearly nearly all it did i Tears
pricking my eyes then that oh,
that memory of saying that to
you, and you being that little
girl and then carrying that
story through? It's so
beautiful. And I think I mean
that that is what it is that
shines through in the way that
you write. And I am also really,
it's interesting, because I know
we've talked about age a bit
like, as we've been talking
today, but it feels like there
is a what's the word? It's like
the Eternal Mother, that figure
you know, not maternal as in
motherly mothering or, you know,
sort of telling everybody what
to do in that kind of like, you
know, maternal way it can be but
it sounds like one of the things
maybe that that you've tapped
into is this sense of the
Eternal Mother, the one that
that can say, come come in and
be safe here. When via Home hear
that that's part of the energy
that you're bringing to the
sports that you love. You know,
and I wonder whether that is
that comes with some wisdom that
comes with some maturity, you
know, being able to see, well,
someone over there is, is a bit
scared by this. And so I can
extend that hand and say, Come,
come, you know, bringing that
maternal energy but but in a
Yeah. In a bigger sense than
than simply a mother, you know?
Yeah. Is there anything bigger?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
Unknown: that's a little. And
she was that that's what my mum
was like, you know, so I guess
it's just her legacy. It's the
part of me that I carry around
from from the way she was, you
know, in many ways, you know, if
what if, you know, the boys will
say, Where's mom? Oh, she's just
talking to somebody over there.
And you know that Oh, no, no,
but I do now whether I wear head
wear whether I wore headphones
on the coast to coast? And I
said, No, because two ways I can
be a dolly daydream. And so I
needed to keep my wits about me,
you know, there's a boat behind
me. But also, if I did, I
wouldn't be able to chat to
people on the towpath, and that
was one of the most rewarding
experiences was chatting to
people on the towpath. So yeah.
Henny Flynn: There's someone I'd
quite like to introduce you to
who is also an Instagramer. He
lives on canal boat, on the
river, and posts about what
their life is like. And I'm
really kind of mindful of that
the interplay between living on
the river and and travelling
along the river. I just think I
think that, you know, he I know
they paddle board as well, so
that he might be an interesting
person for your podcast,
actually. Oh, wow. Yeah, I think
I think I think there is a an
interconnecting thread there. I
will introduce you. I, I'm only
so as I'm listening to you, as
well, I'm thinking about how all
of this informs your sense of
ageing, you know, how you're
this theme themes that run
through the way that you speak
about adventure and courage. And
I think compassion, is there
certainly compassion for others
are here in spades. And how does
that inform how how you feel
about this next sort of phase of
your life, the next adventures
that you have coming up?
Unknown: I think I think it's
given me the chance to see them
as an adventure so that they
won't all go right. There'll be
ups and downs. I think. I think
knowing how do I said, So one
was called Brave Enough a
journey home to joy. And an in
the film, we talked about the
fact that for so long, I was
just very, very sad. You know,
and the sadness had got almost
like, into the marrow of my
bones, it was so deeply rooted.
There was sadness about
miscarriages, there was sadness
about divorce, a sadness about
my mom, but just a general
sadness that I had. I had not in
any way fulfilled my potential I
hadn't. Life had not been how I
thought it would be and there
was just a really deep sadness.
And so when I rode the million
metres, the movement going
backwards and forwards, we
talked about how it felt like
that sadness was coming out of
the marrowbone of my life, and I
was sort of exhaling it in the
movement. And so I think,
because there have been so many
years times years weeks that I
have been really quite sad and
fearful of life. That the, the
process of the paddleboarding,
the skateboarding, everything
I've done and written is given
me a sense that it will, it
doesn't always work out how you
think it is gonna work out, but
you can still make the best of
it. And that you have to let a
certain amount of life unfold
that you can't control
everything. You know, I'm quite
a con. I'm, you know, I've had
people say to me in the past,
don't wait for the lights to go
green and I am very much I need
to know that all the lights are
on the road are going to be
green and it's all going to go
really smoothly because I'm so
fearful. And I think what I've
learned is that there will be
obstacles along the route, it
won't go as it planned, there
will be bumps and bend. But if
you just trust within you that
you can navigate those, it will
be okay. And trying to have the
idea that it will be okay in a
good way, you know, that the
the, you know, the world has
your back. It hasn't always felt
like that, but to try and
believe that. And so yeah, to
see adventure, to see ageing as
an adventure and that, you know,
you can just keep, keep
evolving, really keep growing, I
think I used to think I would be
on a trajectory of going from
deeply imperfect to one day
reaching perfection. Well, that
was my goal. I was just always
on a trajectory of self
improvement. If I just read
enough self improvement books, I
would be enough. And what I've
realised recently, in the last,
you know, few years in my 50s
is, I already was enough. I was
absolutely enough. At every
point in my life. I was enough.
But there was room to grow. And
growing doesn't mean reaching
perfection, it means blossoming
into who you are. But always
from baseline of enoughness.
There is. So yeah, so I'm
growing, but I'm not expecting
myself to improve if that makes
sense.
Henny Flynn: It really have so
much love for for everything
that you just said there. I
think there is something there's
something incredibly powerful
about recognising that life, you
know, for one to a hackneyed
phrase life is a journey and and
the paths that we take is, is
the journey. It's not it's not
about the destination. There's a
there's a lovely, I think it's
Edward Monckton, quote, you
know, it's not about the
destination, it's the glory of
the ride. That speaks to the
that somatic experience of being
on a paddleboard and you know,
and travelling, that you're
Yeah, it's, and it speaks to me
of like meditation as well,
because we don't meditate for
something. We we meditate. It's,
it's, it's easy. Just to be
doing it, and it's enough. Yeah,
reliving? We don't yeah, we
still have these pressures on
ourselves. Yeah.
Unknown: Yeah. And like, with my
skateboarding, I'm very much
like that. I wrote a post
yesterday saying, I've got no
expectations, if all I do, if I
all ever I can do is what I can
do now. But I kind of devote
myself to the practice than that
in it enough for me, and I've
given myself a chance, and I
meet lovely people, and it's
great fitness, and it's great
beyond mind. That's enough, you
know, hopefully, I will get a
bit better, and the ramps will
get a bit higher. But if they
don't, then at least I honoured
that little girl that wanted to
try it all those years ago. So
yeah, we've
Henny Flynn: been in, in
Buddhism, and that's the Zen the
Zen Buddhist, like beginner's
mind, isn't it? That's the or
Sharon Salzberg, you know, we
can always begin again, I think,
I think learning how, how that
feels inside us and learning how
we can keep accessing that
beginner's mind. This is
powerful, because it means that
a friend of mine who taught me
the phrase, everything is an
experiment. Yeah, learning that
just meant I could go, oh, so
with an experiment, you're not,
you're not looking for a right
outcome. You're just Yeah. So
things feel a lot freer when you
have that mind.
Unknown: Exactly the pressure to
make the right choice, the right
path, and the right decision is
off because everything is an
experiment. Yeah. I've learned
so much.
Henny Flynn: So Joe, I have I
have one last question, although
it's got two parts. But I have
one last question. And it's a
question I asked my coaching
clients actually and it's
because it's one of those things
that can just be really
interesting to see what arises.
So if you imagine that this time
in your life was a chapter in
your book of life, what What
would the channel be called?
Unknown: The one coming up or
the past chapter the last few
years or they're in
Henny Flynn: right now, this
stage of your life. This was a
chapter in your book of life,
what would it be called?
Unknown: What would it be
called? Blossom blossoming.
Henny Flynn: And what would the
subheading be? Wow,
Unknown: I can see why you
didn't tell me this was going to
be a question. Last evening.
So definitely around blossoming
and growing. I guess it would be
opening up to life. Oh, yeah.
Yeah, opening up to life, I
think. I think that's yeah,
definitely up to the
possibilities of life. Because
for so long, without labouring
the point, I just felt so scared
of life that I didn't dare open
up. That actually, this is a
time where I found that I'm
opening up. I have been and I
still am. And I'm looking
forward to my 60s where I open
up more and blossom into Yeah,
so blossoming, that I'm in the
process of blossoming, rather
than I have blossomed if you see
what I mean. Yeah.
Henny Flynn: Beautiful.
Beautiful, Joe. That's a thank
you. So visceral, that feeling
as well. And I think, you know,
incredibly inspiring, listening
to you. And I'm so grateful to
you for sharing the all the
layers of of what this
experience has been like for
you. It's been, it's been an
absolute joy.
Unknown: Oh, well, thank you.
Thank you for asking such
questions that were so moving
and making me think can make me
learn and yeah, I really. Yeah,
I really appreciate it. And as I
said, I was listening to that
podcast wrote about Glyn you
published about glimmers and you
know, I talked about glimmers in
my book. And, and it's Yeah, so
just felt it felt it was meant
to be actually when I was just
reminding myself that we were
going to chat today. So thank
you, I really, you know,
incredibly grateful that you
should have invited me on. And
Henny Flynn: isn't it wonderful
to see how a message on social
media can lead? Yeah. You know,
I think so often we kind of, we
can sort of see things like
social media, just through a
very kind of negative lens. But,
you know, lovely people.
Unknown: Yeah, for me, too. I've
met some amazing people and
experiences, whatever. You know,
there are negatives, and
sometimes it does feel grim. But
I've met some lovely people,
really lovely people. So and
that's what for me, it's all
about so
Henny Flynn: brilliant. All
right, Joe.
Unknown: Thank you.
Henny Flynn: So that was just a
delight. I love these moments
when you invite a relatively
random stranger to come and have
a really intimate conversation.
And you don't really know where
it's gonna go, how it's going to
flow. And then you find yourself
just loving what is being said,
and, and really connecting and
resonating. And I hope, I hope
you found that as well listening
to Joe, and what a gorgeous
woman she is. And I really
recommend following her on
Instagram, and just sort of
hearing and seeing you know, how
supportive she is about others
who are looking to perhaps open
themselves up to fresh
adventures, to new starts to
accessing those resources that
we hold within. There is a there
is a quote actually that I'd
like to share with you from her
website, where she says, I
believe we're not too old, and
it's never too late to have an
adventure, create a fresh start
and make a difference. Let's
enjoy the journey together.
Isn't that gorgeous? So, signing
off for now and sending you a
hug and a wave