Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
We share our thoughts and ideas on how to grow a business.
I was off video, it was 8am, I
like, rolled out of bed, got a
coffee, and like, got on this call.
And I thought I was just gonna be
like, sitting here, kind of like,
being able to do some other work.
And at some point I realized, oh god,
like, this conversation is just, it's
just like, I don't know where it is.
And the strategist was sort of being
very quiet and he was just like going off
and off and I was like I think I need to
like steer this into a better direction
I realized when she sort of admitted on
slack to me like hey, like I need your
help I had already started suspecting
like I started thinking I'm glad I'm on
this call because I think She's losing
control of the call and like it's kind of
like over her head or whatever And so I
thought to myself, like, there are some
simple things that I've never, like, sat
down and coached her on that we, as a
company and as managers, we don't really
do this, which is like, we do a lot of
training on the mechanics of our content
marketing system, how to do keyword
research, how to write or whatever.
And like the reporting and the analytics,
we don't do a lot of training on these
for lack of a better term, soft skills.
Okay, Benji, I called you onto this
recording with you having no idea what
I want to talk about, or only a vague
idea of what I want to talk about.
Is that correct?
It is correct.
Uh, yeah, I have no clue.
Also, it was your birthday yesterday.
Is that correct?
That is correct.
Um, so, uh, I'm going to tell you the
story of what happened this morning
on a call that led me to want to have
this discussion about some operational
issues, challenges, I don't know
how to phrase it, um, operational
stuff related to doubling our agency.
So we were on, um, a nice 8 a.
m.
Pacific our time, um, content interview.
So for those, if anyone's
following, that's only vaguely
familiar with our business, right?
So we're a content
marketing and SEO agency.
And a big part of what we do is we
don't try to come up with the ideas
for What to write in the pieces
ourselves, like typical people do, we
base it on interviews with the client
so that we take what is typically
like a piece that you can just tell a
freelance writer like Googled around
and like tried to come up with ideas.
No, we want like the expertise
of the founders of a particular
sass business or something like
that to be expressed in the piece.
So this particular client has, um, A
tricky, they're in like a tricky space
where they have a lot of like commentary
on how their enterprise customers should
be like doing business in, in, in like the
area that their software company is in.
Um, and I probably shouldn't
say any much more than that.
It's not important.
And so the pieces are tricky and,
and we have talked about in a
previous episode that this client's
had some stuff with like needing
to rewrite pieces or whatever.
So I'm on this content interview.
And it's amazing.
The client shows up ridiculously prepared.
You could argue almost overly prepared
where they have this like huge Google
Doc full of all these thoughts and
they're just like going through it.
And the, this particular guy,
like he tends to sort of think
about things very academically.
So he's talking about just like
this business theory, um, about
this topic and all this stuff.
And I'm like, Whoa, Whoa,
like what is going on?
And I thought.
Now talking about like the dynamics
of the operation of the business
I thought I was sort of like just
kind of like gonna be sitting off.
I was off video.
It was 8 a.
m I like rolled out of bed got a
coffee and like got on this call And
and I thought I was just gonna be
like sitting here kind of like being
able to do some other work And at
some point I realized Oh God, like,
this conversation is just, like, it's
just like, I don't know where it is.
And, um, the strategist was sort
of being very quiet, and he was
just like going off and off.
And I was like, I think I need to like
steer this into a better direction.
So I started taking over, and
being like, hold on, hold on.
And I interrupted the client, and
I was like, let me just level set.
And I did stuff that like, I don't
really, I haven't really like thought much
about it was just like kind of turning
it into a normal conversation that you
and I do when we talk to clients in
kickoff calls, in sales calls, whatever,
just being like, is this what you mean,
let me play devil's advocate and just
like bringing the conversation back to
like earth from this like 30, 000 foot
academic like place that he was taking
it and just Getting to the questions
and topics that we would need to write.
Um, and at some point in that
process, the strategist slacked me
like, Hey, like, I'm gonna need you.
I don't understand what he's
talking about or what's going on,
so like, I kinda need you to like
start asking questions or whatever.
And I could feel that and so I had
already started asking those questions.
And as this was happening or right
after, I realized, when she sort
of admitted on Slack to me like,
Hey, like, I need your help.
I had already started suspecting like,
Oh, I'm glad I'm, I started thinking,
I'm glad I'm on this call because I
think this is just kind of, she's losing
control of the call and like, it's
kind of like over her head or whatever.
And the thing is like, this
is an experienced strategist.
I mean this must be her like 8th
account or something like this.
She's been with us for like years.
And so I thought to myself like, you
know, there are some simple things
that I've never like sat down and
coached her on that we As a company
and as managers, we don't really do
this, which is like we do a lot of
training on the mechanics of our content
marketing system, how to do keyword
research, how to write or whatever.
And like the reporting and the analytics,
we don't do a lot of training on these.
for lack of a better term, soft skills,
like managing a client call, like what
to do when the client just goes off
in some direction and you're lost.
Like, what the heck
are they talking about?
Um, and so I had two thoughts of like
one, Oh God, do we need to do this?
And then I immediately started thinking,
well, how would I even Like this
happens to be one of her weaknesses.
It's not, but then some other
strategists may have other weaknesses.
And the thought that came to my
mind is, well, there was several.
One, if we're really going
to double our agency.
So like that was in my mind because we're
doing this video series and all this,
then I'm like this, I can step in now.
If we had double the clients and
double these kinds of problems at
some point, like I can't step in.
And this is like the typical thing
that everyone talks about with scaling
the business of like, you need to
eventually have the systems to take
over because it can't be a business
where the owner founder type just like
steps in and solves all the problems.
And so part of me was like,
well, on the one hand, I also
just could have not been there.
Like she probably could
have just figured it out.
And how many most just for sake
of completeness, it is actually
extremely rare that you and I are
on even a single content interview.
Me being on this was something that I feel
like hasn't happened for like two years.
Content interviews,
strategists handle themselves.
So then the last thing, and I'm curious
your thoughts, is I was like, well then
like, what if we had almost like a Google
Doc, like a, almost like a scorecard
or some Google Doc for each employee
or each strategist that was like, here
are their strengths and weaknesses.
You know, like, or, or we had
some categories, like, let's just
take the content strategist role.
Like we had some categories like, you
know, writing ability, punctuality,
holding to the calendar, like
client calls, responding in time
to the client, whatever it is.
And like doing this.
And we had almost like a
scorecard of like, where are they?
Like they got this, they're
really good at this versus like
they need work in these areas.
And then detail of like what specifically.
You know, and so for this strategist,
it'd be like, there's like, maybe
some confidence too, and like,
interrupting, like being, being
confident enough to interrupt and
take over a conversation, etc.
And then we'd like, check
in every few months.
And then a part of me thought,
Yeah, but is that just like, some
random corporate BS thing that
like, big companies would do?
That's just like, we would set it up
and we wouldn't check it ever again,
and is it just like, too silly?
So, I just thought, like,
I don't know the answer.
And this is one of those questions that
you get when you're in this position
where you're like, I'm, we're going to
scale the agent, we're going to double the
agency where you're like, what do I do?
Like, do, is this just like Davis,
you're making a big deal of it.
And you know, whenever you catch these
issues, like we just talked to the
person, you're small enough to do that.
Or is it like, no, this is a sign that
these are the kind of grown up things and
processes you guys might need to have in
place now, if you really want to double.
Yeah, a couple of things.
So, one, I think that the weakness
in interviewing is likely just a
function of this specific account.
Like, I don't, I don't know that we
could make the case that there's a
weakness in interviewing across all
the accounts, because we've never
really had this problem before.
I think you being on this call was,
was likely a function of knowing that
this account was already having some
difficulties on the writing side, and
specifically those Those issues stemmed
from some of the past interviews and
not, not having clarity from the client
in what they were trying to say on some
of those past interviews, which is why
you even joined this call to begin with.
So I don't know that there's anything
needed beyond just kind of coaching her
through This specific account because
I think if she can get if she sees what
you did on that I think she can kind of
mimic your process going forward and I
don't know if there's necessarily some
Additional coaching that we need to
do beyond that I think it's I think a
lot of the issues are client specific
here And so I I don't yeah, like I've
never I've never really seen you think
you're totally overkill to have like
some kind of like Document or scorecard.
I guess it just made me think like we
don't do we don't do any of that big
company stuff We don't know performance
review, but I we're still small enough
But I but I was actually thinking about
this the other day too because I think
when we take any new account What we do
is we try to figure out who would be the
best strategist to match what this account
needs and I think we Because because we've
been on all the client calls And we've
seen the writing and just kind of seeing
all the client communication because
we're still CC'd on a lot of those emails.
I feel like we just generally know
the strengths and weaknesses of every
strategist and we can kind of help
pair them with accounts that they
would be best on and we can kind
of just backfill their weaknesses.
But I do think there's something to
what you're saying that as we continue
to grow, I can imagine there's going to
be a role that opens up where we stop
pairing every strategist on the account.
And there's, there's someone else
like the strategist coach that we
had before or someone in between us
and the strategist who's overseeing
things like on a bigger picture.
And then, then I do think having
something where either we're conveying
our thoughts of strengths and
weaknesses of every single person to
someone else would be very valuable.
But I think at this stage,
I think we just know that.
I mean, maybe we can write it
down just so we have it, but.
I don't necessarily know that we
need to create some, some new process
around this, at least at this point.
Yeah, I mean, my gut also was like, don't,
don't do this kind of extra busy work
unless you absolutely really need it.
Um, and so it's not like I
did that, but a couple things.
Number one, yeah, what you're saying
at the end is where my mind's going.
It's the word doubling is, I guess, making
me stress about all of these issues more.
Cause I just think Okay, imagine if we
had double the strategists and double
the number of these problem accounts,
like doesn't everything double?
So if you have some percentage rate of
the number of counts that have to have me
step in right now, for example, to double
the agency, you have twice of those.
So I'm like, well, what
am I gonna do then?
Yeah, I mean, I'm just always been of a
mindset that don't create process around
something unless something's broken.
No, I think in the end I agree with
you, like I think the answer, your
answer, I think from what you just said
would probably be to my question would
be like, yeah, and when that happens,
and when you find it's like breaking,
we'll deal with it at that point.
Yeah, because I feel like that's a
mistake so many people make is they,
they try to, okay, so we're going
to double the agency, like, and, and
there's people of the mindset that
this is what you're supposed to do.
I kind of disagree with it, though.
It's like, okay, create the org chart
of what you need to do to get there.
Like fill those positions out.
Like, what are those things?
Like, I don't know.
I feel like you can't really
anticipate a lot of that stuff.
Like there, there's, there's definitely
going to be gaps in what we can do
and we're gonna need someone, but
I feel like let's figure that out
when we hit that, that roadblock.
I, I feel like it's so hard to
anticipate exactly, like, what, what
the next role we're gonna need is.
Below us or when we're going to be tapped
out on client calls or when we're going to
be tapped out coaching people, I feel like
we'll just know when we get there and then
we'll, we'll need to move someone into
that role, but it's so hard to anticipate,
like, what is the job rec of that role?
What are the specific things
that we need help with?
I don't know.
I feel like every time we've tried
to over engineer something or come up
with a process or game plan for how
something's going to be in six months
or a year from now, when you get to that
point, it looks very different than.
What you thought in the very beginning I
think one thing that exemplifies that is
that we've had multiple iterations of like
What do we call them manuals or process?
I was gonna say that in the
very beginning of died In the
very beginning of the agency.
We wrote out like a 40 page Process
document for how to run an account
and yeah, maybe that process worked
when we had three accounts but we
quickly outgrew that and and just As
you learn, a lot of the, the process
changes because you get better at
it or yeah, or we completely change
our strategy or something like that.
And so this whole process doc becomes
obsolete and people didn't really use it.
So like, I feel like once now we could
probably create something because I feel
like our process is really set in stone.
But at the beginning we were, we
were like six months or a year
into the business trying to create
a process document for how to run
an agency, and run every single account.
And we didn't have the
experience that we have now.
And we didn't have the set
process that we have now.
So no, we, no, we have a process
document now, even the one that
Daniel created and we still, I don't
know, we could survey the team.
I think some people kind of use it,
but I feel like largely we don't.
Well, maybe, maybe that's
a function of not having.
A new strategist that we've trained
into that role in a while, I think
maybe now that we have some people
that are now going to step into the
strategist role, those documents.
Yeah, those documents get used a lot more.
But I, but I, but I feel like
a majority of the training and
coaching happens from shadowing us.
And I feel like that's the best way to
learn or shadowing other strategists,
like people, people conveying
their knowledge to other people.
It's not like the written manual.
Sure.
It's good as a reference point.
I feel like those have a
lot of the answers in there.
If you need, if you need an answer
quickly, you can go find it in there.
But I feel like a lot of the, the soft
skill building and just their expertise
comes just from doing it over and over
again, or seeing us communicate with
clients or seeing how we email people
or seeing how we report on something or
watching their peers do the same thing.
And that's where a lot of the learning
come from, because I feel like
it's hard to convey how to handle
various situations in a document.
There, there's so many random interactions
that you have with clients and things that
maybe haven't come up before they haven't
dealt with and I think just understanding
our principles and values and how we've
handled situations in the past, I think,
prepare them for how to do things in
the future, much more than reading some
document on, I don't know, whatever it is.
Yeah, I mean, this is something that
has, I can't decide whether it's
something that I was going to say, like.
Drives me crazy or also just like, gives
me anxiety that I'm making a mistake.
This whole like, document your
processes, it's like this huge
what like thing that people say
there's like books written on it.
I read that book.
I probably have it over here.
Oh yeah.
Work the System by Sam Carpenter.
You, you read this book about
this guy who, like, he owned or
bought this, um, some like call
center in like rural Oregon.
And he like, like basically ran it yeah,
I remember you told me about that, yeah.
Yeah, he runs it into the ground, he's
like lying, sometimes I don't know whether
these books are just fictionalized, but
for whatever, like, within it, is that
like, at some point he's like literally
like sleeping in the floor, cause he has,
He has no money, he has massive debt,
no banks will loan him anything more,
he doesn't have a place, he just lives
in the like office, the call center, and
he's like, I'm just done, like I don't
know what to do, like my life is over,
I'm like in debt, all this, I'm gonna
have to go bankrupt and all this, and
it like dawns on him that the entire
world works in a series of systems.
And he's like, Oh, and he creates this
first system of how to cash a check
and it's like a written document and he
hands it to someone in the organization
and he was like, and I never had to
deposit checks at the bank ever again.
And I realized, Oh, my God, like
now that time I get back and so then
he documents another process and
the idea is like now there are some
various like classic like business
book cliches he'd be like, I'm like.
As I'm writing this, I'm at
some, like, ski resort in Aspen.
I'm probably getting the details
wrong, but it's something like this.
And, like, you know, and
I'm skiing on a Tuesday.
And I just check in with the team on
one four hour call, like, every week.
It's very, like, four hour
work week y or whatever.
So they paint that picture.
And it has this, like, kind of
cult following, but there's,
like, multiple things.
Even that whole e myth.
Right.
The E myth, that whole thing is like
that, you know, people work in the
business versus on the business and you
need to document and process everything.
And everyone's like, this is
why McDonald's can franchise.
So I can't decide whether
I'm like, this is dumb.
Like they're talking about businesses
that like a call center, it's like
a business or, or a McDonald's.
It's a business where employees are
just asked to follow the exact process.
One step at another.
So it makes sense to process it.
And you can't extrapolate that advice
to a marketing agency doing like, you
know, strategy level things where like,
there's like weird situations that arise.
Like, how are you going to, you're going
to create a Google doc for every random
thing that a client could possibly
say on a call with a, with us, like it
doesn't seem realistic, I can't decide
if that is the right thinking of just
like, this doesn't apply and people
on Twitter or whatever, like over.
You know, we have people take this
thing that worked for them and they like
over generalize it to like everybody
should be doing this there's like kind
of that ethos or am I the idiot and
Actually, like we should be documenting
this that at seven eight years into
this I should not be stepping into a
client interview call and like dealing
with this problem This is probably
something I'm gonna say in every videos.
I've already said this but like
it's a it's a it's a I mean I I
don't know the right answer I mean,
yeah, maybe we're making a mistake
by not document every everything.
I just don't think that's
our problem right now.
Speaking of books, another book
that I read a long time ago,
maybe like 10 years ago, the goal.
Have you ever read that book?
I think you told me about Eliyahu
Goldratt or something like that.
I mean, I don't even remember the
specifics anymore, but I think
what I took away from that book
is, is it's, it's about a factory.
Uh, and a manager coming into this
factory and trying to figure out
how to improve the operations of it.
But I think what I took away from
that is you need to identify where the
bottleneck is and solve that problem.
And, and so like my question back is
like, is, is this a true bottleneck?
Like is you spending one hour kind
of going over this with a strategist,
like killing our entire business
or even like back at your, your
point on that other book, like.
Our business is not falling apart and
like operations is not just bleeding
everywhere, you know, like, so is that
truly a problem or is this like a one off
situation where it can be fixed by just
spending a little bit more time with that
person because I do think the coaching and
the training is so valuable and I think
at this point in our business, the more
that we can spend time with our team and
get to the get them to the point where In
most situations, I feel like we're good.
Like, yeah, there's always going to be
situations where we need to step in.
I don't think there's ever a business
where you just completely run hands off
until you have like multiple layers.
Sure.
But you have multiple layers
of management and, but okay.
Even if it's not employee issues,
there's going to be other issues where
the people running the company need
to step in, in different situations.
And I don't think that's ever
going to completely go away.
So.
Yeah.
How do we minimize that over time?
And I, and I think at this point, our
business, it still makes sense for us to
step in and in situations, show someone
else how we would handle this situation.
And then I think going forward that
that shouldn't be a problem anymore.
I think they learn, they
learn just from shadowing us.
Yeah.
The flip side to that, those business
books, you know, like kind of that, um,
you know, have a process and then you
can franchise and the owner can just
like ski all day or whatever is, um.
You hear the other stories
of actual business owners.
You hear the, like in autobiography
of Steve jobs and stuff.
I mean, this guy was like in,
like he would like comment on a
single pixel or like a screw and
he was like, no, we need to change.
Like he was like in the details.
I've heard about like Jeff Bezos
would like the biggest deals or the
important stuff, like he's in it.
Like he's like, he's like doing part
of it or at least when he was CEO
of Amazon or whatever, or like Elon
Musk being like anal about some,
you know, particular product details
or tech of the space shuttle or
something that they're launching.
Um, one data point that's
important of like the coaching so
that I haven't told this story.
So then after the call, um, her
and I were chatting for a bit and
I kind of like brought this up.
I was like, you know,
like, we don't do this.
Like, what do you think if we
had like a Google doc for you?
Like mentioned this and
I was talking about like.
The particular issues for her that I
think ran into this situation of just like
confidence and interrupting or whatever.
And she said, yeah, there may
be some people on our team that
would be like, what the heck?
Why is there a doc?
I've been doing this myself for a while.
And she's like, I'm not like, she's like,
I have felt self conscious for a while
of like, you know, there are times where
I'm, uh, you know, I don't have a lot of
confidence in what I'm doing or whatever.
I'm not sure I'm doing a good job.
She's like, I would love it.
Yes.
I mean, maybe, maybe it's just a function
of asking each person on our team.
Just where they need help or
like what areas that they still
feel like they need to work on.
Because I, I wouldn't say that's probably
true for every single person on the team.
There's definitely people that feel more
comfortable interviewing than others.
But there's also people that feel more
comfortable reporting than others or on
client calls or client communication.
So maybe it's just going back
to like your, your document
identifying strengths and weaknesses.
I mean, I'm with you in like, I'm also
really resistant to over process stuff
because I was totally Years ago when
we created these like Google docs,
we even use that software guru, which
is supposed to like be like all these
little knowledge, knowledge base.
Yeah.
Where we have like how, what
to do in this situation.
You can like more easily
like search and find it.
Cause I thought it was maybe
like a, I don't know, some like.
U S logistics, UX logistics
issue that people weren't using,
like the Google docs manual.
And I was like, okay, guru, you can
just, there was like a slack integration.
And if anyone had a question, we could
be like, here's the guru card for how
to do this in GA or something like that.
And then we paid a bunch of money to guru.
And like, eventually no one used it.
This has happened at every
single company I've been at.
Like the first job that I
had, yeah, we had, okay.
It was like a hundred plus person,
a hundred million dollar company.
And we had a knowledge
base that was built.
And, and there had to be training teams
that would just like tell employees, go
look here, like no one wanted to use it.
So they spent all this money building
this out and all the information was
in there, but like, yeah, sometimes
answers to questions weren't in
there and it was just annoying.
Like, okay, you had a simple
question instead of just going
to your manager or something like
that, or someone who had the answer.
There was like all just go in here and
go search for it And it was just it was
such a pain and no one wanted to use it
And so I don't know maybe that's like
maybe it is over engineering stuff.
I definitely think it's worth Having
some big picture processes written down
but like a lot of the detailed stuff
I think it just comes from experience.
It comes from handling different
situations like the people who've
been with us A long time who've
dealt with multiple different
types of accounts and different
personalities and that kind of stuff.
I feel like they're pretty good
handling almost any situation
that comes up just because they've
seen more than other people.
And I don't think that experience can be
really conveyed in some written document.
Even, even if we showed different
examples of emails and how
we've responded and stuff.
It's, it's so situation dependent that I
feel like it just comes from experience.
I almost wonder if internally though,
like, it would help me, since I'm a big
picture person, to just have like, my
own list of the strategists, or your
and my, like, list of them, and just
be like, which ones still need work
on what, but you're right, like, the
other reason I kind of agree with you
here is like, as I'm talking through
this, from the employee experience
side, Is important to both of us that
we're providing a good experience.
Like, would you rather work at a company
where when you have questions about how
to do your job, what the right thing
to do is you can go and talk to the
founders or the managers and have a
conversation, have a zoom call, have a
Slack conversation, or you have to like.
search in this giant Google doc manual.
Like the latter just seems like a very
like non human, non personable, like
it's just a fun place to work, right?
It's corporate.
Well, and I feel like as a remote
business too, it's still having
that element where you can learn
from other people is important.
Like, like in person, you're so used to
just walking over to someone's desk and
saying like, here, I have this problem.
How do I solve it?
And it's like a five minute
conversation and then being remote.
Like, how do you, how do you
mimic that same experience?
I think you just have to be open
to being there for other people,
whether it's on Slack or, I mean,
if someone asks us a question,
we're pretty quick at responding.
And I think having that dynamic where
someone can come to us and, and ask
questions and get an answer, hop on a
zoom or ask for a loom video response.
I feel like that's kind of the
same as mimicking that in person.
the same interaction that you'd have
with someone in person and trying to
then just tell someone like, go look
in this doc and have it not be personal
and not, not adding the situation.
Right.
The doctor will always not be good enough
because you know, you know, this is
making me think what I should consider
this then to make myself feel better
is there are some companies who invest.
And just, they invest more of their
budget in like customer support
staff to where when you call, you
just talk to a human immediately.
Like we had some issues with our PEO,
our HR software just works recently,
but to their credit, I can reach
a human at just works instantly.
I could call right now
and like get to a human.
It's awesome.
Like they have a knowledge base and all,
but they're just like, you can call them,
you can chat with them, you can email.
And like, when I was like,
this is annoying me guys.
Like this is, this is becoming an issue.
Multiple people hopped into the
thread and were like, like, we're
taking care of this or whatever.
And so that's just a
better customer experience.
And so I wonder if that's
how I should view this.
Like we as an organization.
Are going to, we're not going
to do that call center, like a
series of big process documents.
That's not how it runs.
And we're going to invest whatever
it is, whether it's right now
you're in my time and then later,
maybe it's like an employee.
So it's like salary that we have to
invest, but we are investing in like
a human to human way of training.
Yes, there's documentation
for the mechanics of like.
You know, like the GA report or whatever.
Sure.
You can document that, like, go here,
click this to do this attribution report
or something like that or whatever.
Right.
And we have, we have documents
like how to send an invoice.
Like there's just like things that
don't really change that I, and
that aren't situation dependent,
it's going to stay the same all the
time that we have documents for.
But I think a lot of the client
management stuff, it is very
situation dependent to the client.
And so I feel like just being
accessible to those people.
is probably the best answer.
And I, and I think, I don't know
if there is one right answer.
So it, yeah, like, some of those
books and the process there might
have worked for those businesses.
And that's, and there's certain things
that they cared about culturally.
I think we just have a different
way that we want to run our
business and interact with people.
And it's, and set a different culture.
And, and I think that's important
for us to choose what makes sense
for our own business versus Trying
to copy some best practice that some
other business used because maybe they
just don't have the same principles.
Maybe they do want to completely
remove themselves at that stage.
There's just, there's different
factors that weigh into the
decisions that they made.
I think the other analogy is, the
other big picture thing that I think
is Be careful applying business
advice from businesses that are not
the same as yours in whatever aspect.
And I think that applies here, like,
that story was of a call center,
your story was of a factory, right?
The e myth thing wasn't it of like
a bakery or something like this.
And I read another little like story
based book thing about process that
was like, um, that one actually
was a creative agency but then
they turned it into like a logo.
But, I don't know if like, if you
take something that's like a really
hard thinking type business like
McKinsey Do their consultants, are
they trained by like a document?
I don't know.
I would say probably for
some business like that.
I don't know.
I just assume that they're so corporate
that they have like some big manual.
And when you get there, they're
like, here, learn everything
you need to do about consulting.
I mean, I don't know how
their business works.
I bet you, if you talk to, and
actually I should, I have some
friends that worked at BCG, in fact.
Um.
And, and maybe I should ask them, but
like, I imagine there is a manual, but
they would probably all be like, dude,
like the majority of the learning was
from being a junior consultant with the
senior ones on actual client accounts.
And that's how that stuff works.
Yeah, if I, if I just think back to
like me learning in my career, just
at every job that I've had, it's,
it's been coached by someone else.
Yeah, sure.
Taking courses and stuff here
and there, but it's really been
someone spending the time with you
to teach you how to do something.
And then.
And then you applying the learnings
and then adjusting from there.
It's always been.
From getting the actual experience.
It's never been from, I don't
know, like reading a book
or doing anything like that.
I think books are great because they give
you different ideas or, or ways to think
about solving problems in a different
way that you maybe haven't thought of.
And even from these books, like The Goal
or the ones that you're talking about,
it's not ever like I'm reading a book and
then being like, Oh, I'm going to apply
this exact process to what we're doing.
It's always like, there's one.
One or two big ideas or, or yeah, there
are ways that maybe things that you didn't
think about that you can take and then not
even apply exactly, but kind of just take
the idea and then figure out how to apply
it to your own situation or own business.
And so, yeah, I feel like a lot of people
just try to take these books or advice.
Use that as the playbook for how to do
things exactly and that's where it breaks
down And I think we just have to adapt
things to our own culture and our own
way of doing things No, I actually did
that like from that book This is this is
actually really embarrassing But since
half of this is probably entertainment
for people I can tell it so they can
laugh at me This is so embarrassing.
So that book it gets like almost
kind of woo woo y at some point and
he's like he's like He's like and
the ultimate process doc Again, I'm
like remembering from years ago, so I
apologize if someone's read it recently
and is like, Devesh, you're not right.
But it's something that's like, and the
ultimate document was like our strategic
objectives or something like this.
Like he basically argued at some point,
the number one thing guiding all of this
is that you need to be clear on just like
the purpose of the business and whatever.
So he's like, the number one document
you need to create first is Is your
like, you know, like you're like what
why does this business exist and your
strategic and I think I God, do I have
one for grow and convert that was so bad.
I was like so embarrassed I didn't show
you or I might have done it for growth
rock But like I think I created one
once and just the act of writing it.
I was like I was like, this is so dumb.
Like, I just felt like not myself.
And I was like, how is this
going to solve my problems?
When you're early on and you just
feel like nothing is working or
you're just like drowning in client
issues and you hired some people,
like I was in that situation and
growth rock is like, I'd like hired
someone and we were doing CRO and AB
testing and it's really hard to do it.
And it was like, always, it
needed my knowledge of like,
what do you do in this test?
And I was like.
How do I like convey this?
And I like, I was like, this is the
business book people are talking about.
And so I like tried to do it and
I was like, this is so stupid.
Like, this is not going
to solve my problem.
But I think what you're saying is right.
It's like, you need to be careful of, of
not, I don't know, like you read some of
these books, you need to be, you need,
you need to realize that they are kind of
selling an idea and a book and like there
is an incentive when writing those books.
To make it seem like your idea is
more universally applicable than
it actually is because you want to
like try to make it seem grandiose.
And so you need to be very careful
that like this happened to work.
First of all, a lot of the
details might be embellished.
Second, this happened to work for this
guy in this situation or whatever.
And like, you, you need
to use your common sense.
Like multiple lessons in our journey
have taught me like, In the end, I,
like, had, I think I tweeted this once,
like, I have an instinct and then I,
like, second guess it and I'm like,
no, no, let me do the proper thing.
And then you go through a bunch of pain
and suffering because that didn't work and
then you're like, end up, you're like, I
should have just done that instinct thing,
like, that was right at the beginning.
I mean, how many people have been able
to replicate the four hour work week?
Perfect example.
Great book, entertaining, like how
many people actually have built
a, like a large business that
they run on four hours a week?
It's like, yeah.
How many people do you know that do this?
And the, I don't know anyone
who personally does this.
And then on top of that, I think the only
ones I hear of doing it is like someone
who has bought some business, like we were
just talking about before this call, like.
Someone bought an HVAC business or
whatever and like that the business came
with a bunch of staff that was doing
it anyways Anyways, alright that helps
I've definitely had a lot of anxiety
about this this morning, but hopefully
it can help other people that are
also like Should I formalize things?
I mean, it's a discussion that I
think we'll probably just keep having.
Yeah, I agree.
Well, it's it's always funny I
think these conversations are just
like The, the things in the back of
your, your head that you often don't
get to voice are just like, how do
I deal with a specific situation?
So hopefully it's
interesting to other people.
You like this video.
Don't forget to subscribe.
You can also get the audio
only versions of these shows
wherever you get your podcasts.
And you can follow us at Grow
and convert.com/newsletter for
any articles and updates for
when these videos come out.