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You became a coach to help people — but no one told you how to build the business behind it.
Coach as Entrepreneur is the show for coaches who want to go beyond referrals and create a real business that supports both their clients and their family. Each episode explores the systems, strategies, and stories that help coaches simplify marketing, attract the right clients, and grow sustainably, without burning out.
Whether you’re just starting or looking to scale, this is your roadmap to running your coaching practice like a business… and doing it with heart.
Build the system. Serve your clients. Support your family.
Phil Robert
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David Chung: [00:00:00] You became a coach to help people, but no one told you how to build a business behind it. Welcome to Coach As Entrepreneur, the show of for coaches building real businesses with systems, strategy and heart. Build the [00:00:15] system, serve your clients, support your family. Today's guest is Phil Roberts, a seated educator consultant, and ICF accredited coach with over 30 years in school leadership. A former principal turned trusted advisor. [00:00:30] Phil specializes in conflict resolution, strategic leadership, and cultural transformation. He's been a driving force in Australia's independent and Jewish education sectors and brings a deep commitment to mentoring leaders and building [00:00:45] thriving school cultures. Phil, thank you so much for joining us today, from Australia and really excited to have this conversation with you.
Phil Roberts: Great to be here. David. Thanks so much for inviting me.
David Chung: Um, why don't we kind of get [00:01:00] into what you're doing right now with your coaching? what kind of coaching you're kind of, you're doing in particular.
Phil Roberts: Yeah, sure. Look, I'm, I'm really targeting more than anything educational leaders, although leadership from organizations, but [00:01:15] because of my background, targeting more educational leaders, um, and that involves anyone who may be in middle management. Or higher. Um, and also working in the capacity of a consultant to schools where [00:01:30] the coaching becomes, um, particularly relevant and important in that capacity.
So apart from the few private clients, it's also the coaching of many people. As I consult to schools, you, you [00:01:45] find that you just happen to draw on that skill quite naturally. Anyway.
David Chung: Right. as you're coaching right now, where, where do you feel like your focus is on most of the time
Phil Roberts: Mm, [00:02:00] that's a great question. First of all, I. There, there's, it's a quite a focus I have on the strategic level,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Phil Roberts: when I'm working in schools with leaders. I'm really [00:02:15] about, as your introduction said, helping to transform the schools, maybe taking poor performing schools and making them.
Perform particularly well. So that requires a particular holistic approach [00:02:30] to strategy, but also looking at the individuals. Um, the best leaders tend to be the most self-actualized leaders, and my experience to date tells me that [00:02:45] many of those leaders need support at an individual level. So it's not just about the strategic, but also about.
Looking at the individual I'm working with, and to that extent, I might use, [00:03:00] uh, disc assessments, um, where I'm certified to use an EQ assessments and that reveals a lot about the particular leader I'm working with and gives me the opportunity then to drill [00:03:15] down on their personalities and drill down more on who they are as leaders.
David Chung: Right. It's interesting because that is definitely something as I've started having, the more of these [00:03:30] conversations, um, is coming out, is that you go in and you start working with somebody because there's a particular area in the, the business or in the school that they need help with. then very [00:03:45] quickly. It goes from just that one particular functional area to as a leader holistically, you can't just coach somebody like half of somebody if you're gonna coach them. You have to coach the whole person.
Phil Roberts: And, and [00:04:00] that's a great summary. Uh, just to, just to give some color to this, as an individual I have in Melbourne and this particular person, um, he's really drowning and you know what he's revealed to me [00:04:15] about. His personal side to his life. And I'm not a psychologist, I will emphasize that. Um, but it has been very important to understand the impact that's having on his potential to lead well.
[00:04:30] So yes, as you describe it needs to be holistic. We can't just keep focusing on the strategic when you've got an individual like this who is clearly floundering.
David Chung: Right. If, if we're okay, if you're okay to kind [00:04:45] of talk a little bit more about this individual what, what were you brought in to work with him on originally?
Phil Roberts: Yeah, well that's a great question because originally it really was, um, a request by another principal overseas to, , work with this school [00:05:00] and to come in and do some coaching with the leadership. And, um, on the very first session, this person opened up very honestly, and I really admire him and really enjoy working with him because he's been so honest. About the, lack [00:05:15] of balance in his life, how he devotes all his time to his work, how he doesn't see enough of his wife. He feels deficient as a father. There was a lot of, uh, honest, open conversation that has taken place. and [00:05:30] I'm really trying to get him to work with me on that trying to ensure that the school is, has good, sustainable leadership because he's currently, albeit [00:05:45] temporarily, he's currently the person in charge.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Phil Roberts: uh, you know, as I said, he's floundering.
David Chung: In your, in this situation, what are the, what are the kind of things that you're doing to help him to, to deal with [00:06:00] his situation?
Phil Roberts: Mm, well one of the things we did is, uh, a disc assessment with him and it reveals a lot about who he is. Very altruistic person. Um, [00:06:15] sacrifices his, he, he. All about the sacrifice that he makes for others. Um, also trying to drill down on the values that he brings to any task. What are his fundamental values as a guiding rudder?
[00:06:30] How are they going to guide him in the actions that he takes? and trying to get him to understand that he will be a better leader if he's able to. Reach a [00:06:45] greater balance in his life, looking at leisure activities that he should be undertaking, and, um, devoting a little bit more time to his own study, to his own interests.
So it's really about trying to get him to have a [00:07:00] more balanced life and not be so sacrificial to his job. Uh. And at the same time, looking at those personal characteristics around how he deals with stress, how he deals with conflict, how he's [00:07:15] managing the team. He doesn't seem to be managing the team particularly well because he's, I, I don't say this disrespectfully, but he, he.
Probably lacks the courage at times to make the decisions that [00:07:30] are really necessary. And in all fairness, I've had 21 years as a principal. I understand that courage and vision are probably two of the most important traits. One brings to leadership and I can see probably lacks [00:07:45] that courage. So helping him find the courage to make those decisions, it's quite multifaceted.
David Chung: Yeah,
Phil Roberts: I.
David Chung: you're definitely not working on just a, a functional area of, of a job. It's [00:08:00] really working on the whole person and helping them through some really important things. When you're put into a position of power or authority
and you're very altruistic, feel that there's a tendency to. Pour as [00:08:15] much as possible into that work to the detriment of your one's own health or to, to even the time you spend with your family, as you were saying before. I mean, you can only, the, the thing I was thinking about as you were speaking was, [00:08:30] you know, if you have a cup and you wanna keep pouring into other people's lives, you need to refill your cup. And if you, you're not spending that time. Doing like leisure or activities, spending time with your family, doing [00:08:45] like focusing on your own self-interest. keep pouring yourself out, but you're not filling yourself back up. And then eventually you're depleted. And then, then what do we have? We just have another person who's burned out of, you know, a profession and we are [00:09:00] left wanting for somebody else to replace them.
Phil Roberts: Yeah. Yeah, it's a great metaphor and you are right. And, uh, you know, I must say it's a, it really is an enormous privilege. Even when I was [00:09:15] principal, it was an enormous privilege to have people come into the office, close the door, and disclose, um. That was probably one of the most enjoyable aspects of the job, which is why I enjoy coaching because I'm in a very privileged position to work with wonderful people [00:09:30] who need support.
David Chung: Yeah.
Phil Roberts: Um, and today, uh, you know, it's not easy being in, education. I, I know that.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Phil Roberts: it's not easy being a leader, particularly when you are, you have, dealing with a multitude of issues that you deal with on a [00:09:45] day-to-day basis. So, yeah, it's a, it's a good observation, David.
David Chung: Talking about your, your experience as a principal and then going into coaching, where was that like transformation of, I'm, I'm coming to this point where my career is, [00:10:00] I'm, I'm transitioning out of my as a principal and I go into coaching. How did that happen for you?
Phil Roberts: Yeah, so another good question. in some ways it was by design. I knew that I had two or three [00:10:15] years left in me, but I knew I enjoyed working enormously and I didn't want to just sever work completely. So. Probably three years prior to leaving, I did the necessary training [00:10:30] to become a coach. and that in the last three years of my leadership was enormously beneficial.
Anyway, I only wish I would've done it earlier. and that allowed for the transition. In a much easier process to move [00:10:45] out of what I was doing. But to be honest with you, I've, leveraged off contacts and the fact that I was in the position I was in and that I'm at the age I'm at, you know, it's been enormously beneficial.
Having that advantage. [00:11:00] I can't imagine what it would be like to try to be in a position of a, a, a coach where it, not for the fact that I've had. Uh, in some ways if I say it myself, an illustrious career, a lot of, a lot of [00:11:15] contact with a lot of people. well known in the independent sector in Australia, in New South Wales.
So, you know, I was leveraging off a lot and that's been honestly beneficial.
David Chung: right. we, can we talk a little bit more and [00:11:30] explore that a little bit? How, how did you leverage off of your, your connections, your network, your, your work experience you were, you started your coaching business?
Phil Roberts: Mm. Well, when I left [00:11:45] my role as a principal, I, I did do a lot of marketing at the time, and, um, I was marketing specifically to leaders, educational leaders, and, I had very strong contacts in the community I was working. [00:12:00] and when you have those contacts, you find that people reach out to you. I knew of many people anyway, uh, a great number of people.
You can only imagine after 21 years as a principal and, even greater number of years in education [00:12:15] there. I've built up a lot of context and those people, realize that you are going into, what you're doing is coaching and then Well, when I left my role as a principal, I, I did do a lot of marketing at the time, and, I was marketing [00:12:30] specifically to leaders, educational leaders, and, I had very strong contacts in the community I was working. and when you have those contacts, you find that people reach out to you. I knew of many people anyway, uh, a great [00:12:45] number of people.
You can only imagine you start. Taking on one or two clients and then they might make a recommendation to someone else.
And so it slowly progresses that way. It, I wouldn't say that it's been, um, [00:13:00] full on, but that's not what I wanted anyway. It's, it's given me plenty of time for leisure, plenty of time for r and r. and, uh, you know, that's what I wanted after working hard for 21 years and doing the 70, 80 hours a week. So, right.
Right now this is [00:13:15] about, You know, developing credentials and, street cred as a coach in the industry of education.
David Chung: I guess that's exactly. can, That's one of the ways you can approach it, right? Because, especially if you've been working as [00:13:30] hard as you've been working, you don't need to necessarily go 100% into it. You can enjoy and take, get into it. And honestly too, like the first few years, you're also kind of figuring out. Most, most coaches who are come coming into [00:13:45] it are still trying to figure out, who do I wanna work with? Who do I wanna serve? What does this look like? what kind of style and model do I want? And so, if you can take the time to, to breathe and reflect and think through, [00:14:00] like, this is where I want to, to take my business and my life. that is, I think, very important because if we just like sit down, try to work. Which is great, but then you're not necessarily working towards a destination [00:14:15] that you, you actually want to be going to. You're just, you're just working.
Phil Roberts: Yeah, exactly. And, and I must say that, you know, when you can only imagine 21 years of, uh, leadership, I, it wasn't just a principle. I, I, I've sat on boards,
David Chung: [00:14:30] Mm-hmm.
Phil Roberts: sit on boards, trusts,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Phil Roberts: I. Many other organizations, uh, in the capacity as a leader. And also you can only imagine in 21 years how much professional development I had [00:14:45] around the, the topic of leadership.
It is, I. Am extremely confident about what I, what I do. And I think, again, just drawing on life's [00:15:00] experiences, a vast array of reading and, professional development. and. The many degrees I have is, is actually gives me, you know, the ability to really approach this with a great deal of confidence.
I [00:15:15] can't imagine what it would be like to be a 30-year-old waking up and saying, oh, I'm gonna be a coach. I think that would almost be tantamount to failure.
David Chung: I think that's interesting 'cause this also came up in the previous conversation that I had, um, where, [00:15:30] you know, depending on who you're working with. if, if they're like upper level management, like senior vice vp, uh, C-suite level, you know, they're, they're looking for somebody who can [00:15:45] understand. Very often they're looking for somebody who can understand and relate with them.
Right. And if, especially what you're up at, that those levels, the, the issues and problems you're facing not everybody can. Really understand or, or deal with, even if, [00:16:00] if you're dealing with just like the, the normal, let's call it normal, like personnel issues, but understanding the stress that they're under or like if they're dealing with some regional issue or know, something else happens, [00:16:15] it's they're looking for.
Somebody who can kind of relate and then also be able to them to handle and kind of go through those, work, through those problems and issues. Right.
Phil Roberts: Yeah.
David Chung: as you're saying, like if you're a 30-year-old with, you know, [00:16:30] less than a decade of work experience, it's hard for you to connect with these people and relate with them.
But also like when it comes to referrals and your network, not necessarily gonna be as deep as valuable as somebody who's been [00:16:45] working in a specific industry for plus years and has been building their network and showing that their. Knowledge is, is valuable in, in such a way.
Phil Roberts: Describing [00:17:00] the idea of understanding the empathically, how to work with leaders, not just theoretically, you've been there, you've understood the moments of despair, you've understood how lonely it can be. You've understood the [00:17:15] massive challenges. How often do you, how often do we read of failing organizations?
And, and when I read about the. What's going on there? The team dynamics, it's, it, it leaves you incredulous. [00:17:30] You ask yourself, how could it be so bad when we understand what management should be today, what building team camaraderie should be? It never ceases to amaze me that whether it be a, [00:17:45] a major corporation that there is, whether it be a tyrant sitting at the top.
Or someone that just simply doesn't understand what it means to manage people. So yes, it's, it's, uh, you know, it's the difference between just understanding the theory and [00:18:00] understanding the theory, but lived experience of what it means to be a leader and to be in those moments of, of crisis, being in those moments of despair.
And, and immense [00:18:15] enjoyment and immense privilege as well. It's a whole spectrum of experience and emotion for any lead.
David Chung: Yeah, you, you bring up a really interesting point in that, it, it's amazing that we [00:18:30] have certain issues that come up in organizations when we have more access to information. And more books and knowledge about coaching, team dynamics, collaboration, [00:18:45] know, leadership, psychology, all of these different things, and yet we still run into the same problems. Why do you think that is?
Phil Roberts: Well, I, I said earlier, I think the most successful leaders seem to [00:19:00] be the most self-actualized leaders. I. And I think many people, uh, well, I would say the minority, but there are a significant minority of people who don't seem to be self-actualized, don't seem to [00:19:15] understand themselves in the context of managing others.
and the way they, the way that they, either egotistical or ego driven in what they're doing. there are a number of [00:19:30] responses to that one, David. I think, you know, I've just found, the, the, the people I look at and admire most are people who not only understand the principles of good leadership, but they've got a [00:19:45] really good sense of who they are as people.
You know, they, they know their limitations. They've got a sense of humor that they use really well. You know, they understand what it means to [00:20:00] build trust. They understand what it means to build. I love the Peloton metaphor. You know, as a, as a cyclist, I love the idea that you, you as a leader, you create the peloton, [00:20:15] you get you, you're getting your team to get into the slipstream, but you'll share that leadership at times with other.
People who will come to the front because you respect the fact that they may know a bit more, they may [00:20:30] be the right person at the right time to take the lead to build collective cohesion, to build that collective sense of wellbeing and trust. I. That's what seems to be missing in people who are not well [00:20:45] self-actualized.
They think it's about them. You only have to look at, look, there are countries in the world for God's sake, that have leaders like that.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Phil Roberts: think we both know who we are talking about.
David Chung: Yes. Yes.
Phil Roberts: Enough said.
David Chung: Yeah. [00:21:00] Yeah. It's a very interesting topic because self-actualization definitely comes into play. Um. And I would say us at this time, we have more, [00:21:15] more time and space to be self-actualize, but yet we seem to have fewer and fewer leaders who are self-actualized. And I think it also comes down to, again, as I'm having conversations, [00:21:30] more of these conversations with coaches. Something that came up with for them was also like, as a coach, I need to take time to, to think and reflect about myself and my business. And I think [00:21:45] having time to reset and reflect is also something is very often missing in our the world today. What is the thing with Netflix?
It's, we're competing with sleep. how much time are people watch spending and watching [00:22:00] Netflix versus actually sleeping? Right? If, if we're spending more time, uh, consuming content, uh, scrolling through our phone, how much time are we spending on our own, self-reflection and introspection [00:22:15] And you know, when we talk about corporations and organizations. one person can do that, wonderful for that one person. But that's an organization you need to have, the whole organization to [00:22:30] consider and think through these things. Right?
Phil Roberts: Yeah. Yeah.
David Chung: Not, and not like everybody in the group. Right. But there has to be key people and, and the leadership that are thinking this through to help, guide the organization, [00:22:45] right.
Phil Roberts: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And look, we, leadership itself is a multi-billion dollar industry, and yet we keep finding dreadful leaders all over the place. And I think that many of them are just [00:23:00] not driven by really good internal value system. They're driven by, uh, many of them have the, the dark triad personality types, you know, so it's, it's really
David Chung: Can you explain [00:23:15] that? Dark triad personality types.
Phil Roberts: a, a psychopathy, narcissism, machiavellianism, you know, I, I, I think that there's a, a tendency for many people to rise to the top, because of the. Uh, [00:23:30] quite nefarious ways in which they've done it. And, uh, I, I, I will qualify this by saying that education's an exception because you, you just have the most magnificent people working in education.
They're [00:23:45] well-meaning, and they really, some of them just need support, but I'm yet to meet anyone really who would fit that. Characteristic of the dark triad, but, uh, I have also come across and worked for some [00:24:00] pretty awful leaders in education. But yeah, it's a multi-billion dollar industry. And why can't, you know, is it, it mustn't be working very well if we keep seeing the same kinds of people rise to the top.
David Chung: Right. I mean, and that, [00:24:15] that's also like something that I am, I'm thinking about more and more these days is, one of the coaches I speaking to again, um, coach from Atlanta. In the US he was saying, uh, we organizations get [00:24:30] the leaders that they promote. So if, if you're choose a leader and you just put 'em into a position, you're gonna get whatever that person is. If you don't provide training [00:24:45] on how to become a good leader, because most of the time these people are getting promoted from within. They're subject matter experts. They're very technical, very good at what they do,
Phil Roberts: Yes.
David Chung: placed into that manage managerial position, they don't necessarily have the [00:25:00] skills or the support to, to be a good leader. And so my, my thinking right now has kind of come around, how we, because most of the time you're bringing in coaching when there is a problem. So coaching is more of a, [00:25:15] we need to fix this thing that's broken. How do we to think about coaching as a preventative measure where, we premeditate bringing in coaches into the organization
Phil Roberts: Mm.
David Chung: that
Phil Roberts: Mm-hmm.[00:25:30]
David Chung: we're a rape, giving them support from day one as we're moving them up into those roles of leadership.
Phil Roberts: Uh, that's a great question and I can see that structurally that's happening, in Sydney. there are [00:25:45] organizations, A colleague and I, for example, have teamed up and we are, embedding coaching into the independent school sector across Australia. And so there's an awareness, there's a dawning [00:26:00] awareness of the importance, as you say, of getting this into place prior to people perhaps stepping into the, uh, leadership position, middle management, call it that.
there are some. [00:26:15] Problems. I, I think in this country, and I'm sure other countries, and that is understanding the lack of regulation that defines what a coach is. Uh, and not to [00:26:30] digress too much, but pretty much anyone can call themselves a coach. So the industry can be greatly discredited by loopy people or those people who actually [00:26:45] have been in a senior role and have automatically called themselves a coach without any training.
Now they may or may not do a reasonably good job, but they make no distinction between coaching, [00:27:00] mentoring, and, and I think that that's an issue I have is around the lack of credentialing of some people and the. Lack of regulation. So it impacts [00:27:15] at every level there. but yeah, just going back to your point, we do need to embed it in the earlier stages, but we need to embed qualified people at, is what I'm saying.
Not not just a colleague who's a [00:27:30] friendly face she can pick up the phone to. That's all very good and that's helpful. But we, if we wanna really go beyond that and really. nurture the talents that people can so clearly exemplify. As a good leader, [00:27:45] we perhaps need to embed it earlier.
David Chung: Yeah. And that's a really good point. Yeah, this is fantastic. I think this is, this is amazing. 'cause I, I'm, I'm very excited about this 'cause I think this is really interesting and really necessary [00:28:00] because I think if we want to, my sister, she's having like a plumbing issue right now and. You know it, when you have a plumbing issue, it's gonna cause a lot of problems because it, it's water's leaking all over place. If it [00:28:15] gets into the foundation, you're gonna have to like just tear out the whole thing and just do a whole rebuild, right?
Phil Roberts: Yeah. Yeah.
David Chung: Um, I, if that kind of happens with leadership, right?
If you ha put in the wrong and if you don't handle it. As soon as possible, [00:28:30] you might end up tearing apart, having to tear apart your whole organization and do a whole rebuild. And so how do we into place preventative measures? To ensure that the people we put and instill put it into place to trust, into [00:28:45] those leadership roles. we make sure that they are being trained and that they are the right people? To be in leadership, to guide, you know, in, in these different levels. that's a very interesting place [00:29:00] for conversation because if we could do that more often, I think we were talking about earlier, which is we still have crap leaders at all levels of business and government. Maybe if we were to do this [00:29:15] more frequently, could prevent. of that from ever occurring. Again, that would be like my, my deepest prayer. I, I think at this time of history.
Phil Roberts: Yeah. Yeah. And conversely, how about coaching [00:29:30] those who they don't recognize their own leadership ability?
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Phil Roberts: there are some fantastic people I've worked with who will be incredible leaders. I can see it.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Phil Roberts: But helping them to, to come to that [00:29:45] realization. Uh,
David Chung: Yeah.
Phil Roberts: I, I think it works both ways. You know, like I did work with a deputy principal who was aspiring to be a principal, but through good coaching, he realized he didn't really want to take [00:30:00] on that role, that he was a great deputy.
And I've, we've seen that many times. People who are an exemplary deputy principal, still a leader,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Phil Roberts: but knowing their limitations. Um, and I've worked with people who I. Just don't [00:30:15] realize they are so good at what they're doing. They are exemplary leaders. They can go far. They need also a lot of nurturing, so it sort of cuts both ways.
David Chung: Right. Of course. And, and I, I think the, the, the point here is that if we can do [00:30:30] things earlier and kind of help guide and, and shape these people, instead of just kind of letting fate, I. Roll that dice with fate and just, know, seeing strong people in a, in a work function and just bringing them up. If we were more [00:30:45] intentional with it, what would we have? Not just in an organization, but in the, in our culture and society? Maybe we would have better leaders if we actually were more intentional developing leaders. Right.
Phil Roberts: And I think that there are [00:31:00] some industries who are embracing what you are saying more than others. David, I, I attended a, a conference recently at EY in Sydney and EY had about 15 coaches in attendance. Now they may have been human resource managers as [00:31:15] well, but they were coaches, qualified coaches.
David Chung: Yeah.
Phil Roberts: Um, unfortunately.
Some industries, and I would include education here, are very slow to come to the realization that there is great benefit in coaching. I know many [00:31:30] organizations open up to EAP access to a psychologist, but it's not a psychologist. More often than not. It's not a psychologist someone needs, it's probably a coach who's under, who's been in that role, who can [00:31:45] work with them.
That seems to be a better fit. So, you know, there's a kind of an emergence of, of, of a realization around what we are talking about here, but it, it's industry specific.
David Chung: [00:32:00] Yeah, I think that's great though. Any forward progress is, is always gonna be great. and actually, I, I am talking with another coach, uh, who's, who will be on the show, who was a headmaster, who was a headmaster in the uk was saying [00:32:15] in, in part of his. in part of the way that they do their training for headmasters, they pr bring in mentors and coaches, uh, and well, they started with mentors and now that's shifting towards coaching, uh, for those new headmasters to help them to develop and to, to [00:32:30] gain those skills.
So I was like, that's that's amazing because again, it's an educational institute doing that. Talking about like coaching and bringing in coaching into organizations, um, for yourself as you're moving into this whole coaching industry, uh, did [00:32:45] you have anybody, any mentors or or other coaches you were working with or who were helping you as you were making your transition into this coaching business?
Phil Roberts: Yeah. Yeah. Because in order, if you, if you become accredited, say I am with the [00:33:00] International Coaching Federation, you have, mandatory requirements. A lot of that is, uh, supervision and peer mentorship. that all has to be logged. Um, that's ongoing. So there's a lot of that. I spent hours and [00:33:15] hours online in.
Talking to other coaches on, you know, uh, many evenings, um, where we've, we've discussed various issues, client issues. So, you know, [00:33:30] it's almost built in when you have, uh, ICF credentialing.
David Chung: That's right. Yeah, and I think that's very good because when you, you're speaking with other peers and other people who have been, who have been in the industry for a while, you, you get to learn [00:33:45] from them. Right? And so to learn from others than to suffer through the trials and tribulations and learn it the difficult experience, right.
Phil Roberts: I also had to have some, business peers who could help [00:34:00] me establish myself. I mean, I was going from, if you like, the safety and comfort of a school I. To, uh, creating my own business. So I also needed to have some guidance [00:34:15] in that respect. and so there was a dual process going on there. Not only maintaining the mentorship and the supervision as a coach, but also trying to learn the ropes of how to run your own [00:34:30] business.
David Chung: Right, because I, I, I would imagine going from education to running your own business. there are just facets that are drastically different, right? You don't need to necessarily do marketing or, or [00:34:45] sales Well, uh, depending on what kind of school you're at. Right? But it's, when you're also doing that by yourself, it's, it's very different be than having an organization behind you. How was that for you? Trying to figure out the business end of, of coaching?
Phil Roberts: Um, [00:35:00] when I look back now, I, I see that, uh, there were some mistakes I made. Um, you know, the establishment of a business is easy in itself. In Australia, you know, you get a, an Australian business number. You know, the, the [00:35:15] New South Wales government offers a lot of free advice. marketing is always the, the big one.
I, I spent a lot of unnecessary money in marketing. I, I'm, [00:35:30] you know, quite upset by how much money I did spend on that. Um, and then I found someone. Who was, uh, promising a lot when it came to building websites and everything. Again, paid a [00:35:45] lot of money for that, and I didn't think that quality was very good at the end.
So I've learned about that. Um, there's a lot of subscriptions. You, you have, there's, you know, um. Insurance there. There's a lot to [00:36:00] it. I wouldn't say it's complicated. And I did work with marketers at the school, you know, a lot over the years. I've always worked in with my marketing team, so I'm aware of what needs to be done.
But, um, [00:36:15] I think it, it's just, it brings its own challenges. You know, you, you learn a little bit, but compared to the. Responsibility and the stresses of leadership. It's nothing. It's a piece of [00:36:30] cake. You know, like you, you, you just deal with the tax office and
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Phil Roberts: your subscriptions and, uh, you know, put in your statements and, and it's all procedural.
It's, it's really nothing compared to managing [00:36:45] people that managing people Wow. There, that, that's where you come home and you have a sleepless night.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Phil Roberts: I have never had a sleepless night over managing my, managing my business.
David Chung: It's good, [00:37:00] um, because that means you've probably been running your business properly and so there's not a lot of concern about that.
Phil Roberts: I, I think I, as I said, I, I've made mistakes, you know, uh, oversubscribe to some. Aspects, you [00:37:15] know, uh, accounting system. I had, uh, a good example is my accounting system. I, I had the highest level of accounting system, paying a fair bit of money for that. I didn't really need it. I just needed the entry level accounting system.
So you learn things like that, you know? [00:37:30] Um.
David Chung: Yeah.
Phil Roberts: I, I just wasn't sure at the beginning what sort of system I would need. But again, it was, it was pretty minor when all said and done. there's not, I think one has to be realistic. There's, there's not a lot of money to be [00:37:45] made in the coaching industry. That's what people need to realize.
You know, I'm more fortunate because I work as a consultant. And as a consultant, you can also, as I mentioned before, you're in a position where you are coaching [00:38:00] and therefore you, you know, you are able to, um, make a little bit, but you know, it's, there's not a lot of money in coaching. David,
David Chung: well, I think that also depends because I, I, again, I've spoken and I've been in the industry for [00:38:15] 10 plus years, so I do know, uh, depending on like where your, your niche is, what, who you're serving, you can't. There are people who are making quite well, like six [00:38:30] figures plus, but it, it depends on the way they set up their organization and their business. And generally they're also building their own personal brand. And also they figure out a way for, to do like group coaching. And [00:38:45] they'll have either a of other coaches that work with them or they have, uh, set up an organization with a few other people work under them, to deliver on the coaching as well. Um, and to make [00:39:00] it very lucrative. But it just, it also takes time to figure out what's gonna work best. And a lot of it is also you have to build that brand, that business, co coaching brand to a level that is seen, at the upper levels of like, [00:39:15] you know, the Fortune five hundreds, the MNCs that are looking for coaching at that level.
Phil Roberts: Yeah, I think you have a much better understanding of that. I can hear straight away than what I do. You see? So, I mean, you've probably got some insights [00:39:30] there, which, really interesting from my perspective, you know? Um, I. I haven't pursued a lot of those avenues intentionally, but I don't for one moment doubt what you are saying.
You know, you've, you've got [00:39:45] a pretty good grip on it. I, I've often wondered whether it's built on a multi-layered marketing sort of platform. It's a bit like a pyramid. There are some people I. Uh, doing particularly well. I'm not sure. I spoke to someone the other day [00:40:00] who was saying, oh, I might wanna be a coach.
You know, coming into the, at the bottom level, he is probably gonna be, uh, uh, scrambling around there for quite some time on, on a, you know, good luck trying to buy food sort of thing.
David Chung: [00:40:15] Yeah. Uh, I unfortunately, I, what's kind of coming out, at least from my initial conversations right now is, the first two years you're really figuring it out. I. If you really, if you kind of figure out your service proposition and your value proposition, [00:40:30] your next three to five years, or three to 10 years, you're really just ramping up and growing. but if you haven't done it by after the second year, I think by three, between three to five, you've probably burned out and you're, [00:40:45] you've left because you can't figure out how to build the business.
Phil Roberts: I think you're right.
David Chung: Because I haven't been able to, I'm still looking for somebody, people who are, who are really, successful, five to 10 years in 10 plus. 10 plus is [00:41:00] you're established and you've figured it out and you're just, you just keep making, you're still, you're just working with people, helping them and able to make a good amount of money because you're delivering on your coaching. Right. But [00:41:15] getting to that space of understanding how to deliver, how to, you know, create visibility for yourself and build your brand, that takes a special muscle, right, where you are really that [00:41:30] entrepreneur mindset, building up your, your business and personal brand to be able to go out and say, Hey, my name is Phil Roberts. I've done this with. [00:41:45] X, Y, z I've done this a hundred times and I've delivered on all hundred times or 95% of that time with this result. And when you're able to do that with such confidence and to show you know, the [00:42:00] work that you put in the testimonials, the lives changed. you, at a certain point, you can just start naming your price because you have your proven track record.
You have your system down, if you can [00:42:15] go to a person and say, if you spend, you know, this amount of time with me over the next year, you're gonna get this much better. We're a leader time is money. gonna be like, okay, if [00:42:30] I can spend 20 hours with you over the next year and I can get five times better to 10 times better. If I'm paying you $50,000, a hundred thousand dollars, that's well worth it because they're making way more than that. And so I think that's, but [00:42:45] that, that, again, it takes the time and the muscle to, be able to kind of see that and to push forward in, in those ways, because not everybody, that's not what everybody's looking for.
'cause that, that takes a lot of time and a lot of work. Um,[00:43:00]
Phil Roberts: Yeah.
David Chung: it's, it's really like as a coach. do you wanna be in five, 10 years? Do you wanna spend a lot of time building, uh, your business and building your personal brand so that you can be [00:43:15] doing that? Or do you, are you comfortable where you are? You're, you're paying the bills, you're taking care of your family and you're helping people at the level you want to help them at? And that's much easier. I. [00:43:30] It's just much easier path for business, right? Uh, but if you want to go up to working with the C-Suites, it just takes more time, more, more effort,
Phil Roberts: Don't disagree with you at all. I think you, you've got a, a much better grasp of this [00:43:45] idea of how one can, um, explore different avenues to get there than I have. Um, that's why many of the coaches are actually using people in that way to try. And I remember when I first started out, [00:44:00] there was a guy who, uh.
Had a p he had a online seminar for aspiring coaches. And, um, his story was fascinating. He was doing well, but he said the first two years he actually left his job, and the first two years he was [00:44:15] making no money. Um, and so it was, it, it was a kind of a, an interesting story and, , a, a, a soluary lesson as well that, you know, we've, we have to be, working.
[00:44:30] Cleverly in ways to build what we are doing and to build our brand recognition. Yeah.
David Chung: Yeah, it's, it's not easy and it's not for everyone. And I think, yeah, it, it takes a lot of time and self reflection on, I. Where do I want to, where do I [00:44:45] wanna be? What, what's the business that I wanna have? again, it's just, it takes a lot of time and effort if you wanna be or making a certain amount of money. If what you wanna be doing is more local or working with [00:45:00] schools or, or different levels, then it's, it's an easier path. To be able to do that.
Phil Roberts: I, I, I, as I said, I, I do agree with you. I, I still, I think the, I. I come back to it's, it, I'm [00:45:15] fortunate that I'm leveraging off a lot of, um, history, contacts. if I was young coming into this,
David Chung: mm-hmm.
Phil Roberts: think what you have said is so much more [00:45:30] pertinent and relevant.
David Chung: It's an interesting conversation to have and I think coaches really need to think about as they're developing their businesses. how do I, where do I wanna be and how do I develop that? [00:45:45] Um. Can I ask you, what has been one of the most, uh, rewarding parts of your own business for you these days?
Phil Roberts: I mean, flexibility.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Phil Roberts: I, [00:46:00] I think it's, you know, again, uh, I, I was in the office when I was a principal every morning at 6:30 AM uh, you know, I, I had a long week. I, and [00:46:15] here I am doing most of my work online, and. Just having the flexibility to choose the time, uh, the way in which I wanna work, it's something I haven't experienced before.
It's fabulous. I mean, I [00:46:30] was never in a position where I could say, Hey, I'll be a principal. This, uh, I'm gonna be home one day a week. I'll see you on Zoom guys. You know, it just doesn't happen. You can't do that. So, you know, having this flexibility. And I'm interested in how it works. That's the other [00:46:45] thing, you know, like I'm really curious, generally, I'm really interested in how it all comes together, how you build up your own brand recognition.
You know, I am, I've developed some skepticism around some social media [00:47:00] platforms. Um. You know, and, and yet I'm not, you know, I'm not, um, unaware of some effectiveness there, but I don't know. I, I just really enjoyed learning. I'm happiest when [00:47:15] I'm learning, and if I'm learning about how to build my brand and how to build what I'm doing, I'm happy.
That's, so that's what I, to answer your question, that's what I've really enjoyed about it.
David Chung: That's great. I think, [00:47:30] I mean, you as an someone with an education background, you're probably a lifelong learner, right? You always just wanna keep learning and absorbing and uh, I think that's a wonderful part of that. You know, if you think about your experience [00:47:45] from your, your time in education and until now, and as especially this, this part of your life in your coaching journey, what is one piece of advice or wisdom that you would wanna provide [00:48:00] to
Phil Roberts: people
David Chung: who are considering about considering getting into coaching?
Phil Roberts: I would say,
don't I? I, I would. Want people not to rush into that decision unless they've draw, draw able to [00:48:15] draw on some experience. I think there's a difference between having knowledge and having wisdom. And I think that at the stage of life I'm at, I'm very fortunate to be able to draw on a lot of [00:48:30] experience. And that has, made this so much more enjoyable From my perspective, it's not that I doubt myself, as I said before, um, I, [00:48:45] I've been around long enough and I've done what I've done, um, in many different capacities, and I have a very good understanding of what this is all about. So the advice might be just [00:49:00] buy your time.
You know, don't, don't rush into being a 20 something coming out unless you've got something to draw on some experience there. You know, it's um, now I know I'm leaning more [00:49:15] towards, perhaps by saying this, I might be as sounding more like a mentor, but I think it's life experience I'm talking about. I'm not talking about industry specific experience, even though in my case, that's important, it's also life [00:49:30] experience.
Drawing on some of that. What it's, what it, what it has meant to, to have experienced life to its fullest. And, you know, I, I have done [00:49:45] just so much. I've been so fortunate. Um, that's what I score on.
David Chung: Yeah. That's fantastic. Um, thank you so much for your time today. I've had a lot of fun I, I feel like we've broached some very [00:50:00] interesting conversation topics about coaching and leadership and where, where we can improve in terms of leadership for the future. Thank you so much for being here on the podcast and I've really appreciated your time and this [00:50:15] opportunity just to get you to know you better.
Phil Roberts: Well, my sincere thanks to you, David. It's been, it's really enjoyable and, um, thank you so much for giving me that opportunity to come onto the podcast. I hope that, um, you know, there are people out there who really [00:50:30] benefit from what they're hearing here. I'm sure that'll be the case. Thank you.
David Chung: Thank you so much.