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The Echoes Podcast dives into real-world questions about community, faith, and human connection. Guided by hosts Marcus Goodyear and Camille Hall-Ortega, each episode explores personal journeys and societal challenges with inspiring guests—from faith leaders and poets to social advocates—whose stories shape our shared experiences. Through conversations with figures like Rev. Ben McBride, who moved his family to East Oakland’s “Kill Zone” to serve his community, or poet Olga Samples Davis, who reflects on the transformative power of language, we bring to light themes of belonging, resilience, and the meaning of home.
From the creators of Echoes Magazine by the H. E. Butt Foundation, The Echoes Podcast continues the magazine's legacy of storytelling that fosters understanding, empathy, and action.
This is not a perfect union. It's so far from a perfect union. And calling it out as you see it and being willing to listen to others call it out as they see it, that is a really important part of of what makes this country special. And anything that demonizes debate, I think, is the wrong thing.
Marcus Goodyear:Today, we are wishing a very happy birthday to The United States Of America. Two fifty years after the Declaration of Independence, we still hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. What better way to celebrate than to look back at some of the great leaders of our country?
Marcus Goodyear:Three great leaders have addressed the H.E.Butt Foundation audiences between 1974 and 1978. Two of them, Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan, would go on to become presidents of The United States. And a third, Gerald Ford, had already been president. They were speaking to similar audiences, Christian leaders concerned about the integration of faith and work. From the Echibat Foundation, I'm Marcus Goodyear, and this is the Echoes Podcast.
Marcus Goodyear:On today's episode, we're joined by Rome Hartman. He is a journalist with multiple Emmy Awards from his twenty three years at 60 Minutes, plus his time as a producer at NBC, BBC, and CBS Evening News. He's also moderated Laity Leadership Institutes for the H. E. Butt Foundation around the country.
Marcus Goodyear:Today, we're celebrating our country with a conversation about faith, leadership, and power.
Marcus Goodyear:I'm here with my cohost, Camille Hall-Ortega. Hi, Camille.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Hi, Marcus. Hi, Rome. Hi.
Marcus Goodyear:Rome, welcome. We're so honored to talk with you.
Rome Hartman:No. I my honor entirely. Thank you for the invitation.
Marcus Goodyear:Today, we are celebrating America's turning 250 and we're gonna listen to some recordings from our archives that take us back to America, 200, to the bicentennial. That was 1976, and America had things like schoolhouse rock. There was a new Broadway musical called seventeen seventy six. There was this real spirit of national celebration happening. And yet the country at that time was still reeling from Watergate.
Marcus Goodyear:Nixon had been impeached in July 1974. He had resigned in August. There was this tension between patriotism and disillusionment. I would be curious if you just respond to that idea and and that intro.
Rome Hartman:It it's interesting. 1976, I was in Washington DC that summer, the for the bicentennial summer. I was a junior in college, and it was my first foot in the water, of television journalism. I had an internship at the local CBS affiliate in Washington DC. It was really my first time in Washington and my first time to experience anything to do with journalism.
Rome Hartman:I remember it as being a summer of celebration because there were all sorts of events, associated with the bicentennial. But as you said, Marcus, that was a time of considerable turmoil in The United States, and I I was intensely engaged in the Watergate scandal. That may have been the thing that made me think about journalism in the first place. Wow. Because at that point, the journalists were real heroes of Watergate. You know, Woodward and Bernstein, if not for them, Nixon might have gotten away with it.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah.
Rome Hartman:And so I remember thinking of them as heroic figures. Didn't much have to do with the anniversary of America and in my mind at the time. But being in Washington, in the wake of Watergate and in the wake of the turmoil of Nixon's resignation and everything else, it was a curious mix of of, feelings and emotions for sure.
Camille Hall-Ortega:I'm wondering if you can sort of paint a picture where we can kind of compare and contrast that mood that you're describing, this bicentennial celebration and this feeling of patriotism post Watergate and then patriotism and the celebration of the upcoming 200. What do you think are some of the similarities and differences for mood and for how patriotism pans out?
Rome Hartman:Well, I guess I dare to hope that this two hundred and fiftieth anniversary will be a moment of unity in a time of disunity. Maybe that deep breath, is something that we all need to try to take. You know, this is a time of great division in our country, and the idea of patriotism is feels a little bit compromised in in some ways. I think people who perhaps oppose the the the current administration feel like they've been shut out of the ability to feel patriotic. That that patriotism has been made political and in some ways is disunifying rather than unifying.
Rome Hartman:And I know people, you know, across the political spectrum, and I think everybody across the spectrum feels the need to kind of reclaim patriotism as a unifier as opposed to a divider.
Marcus Goodyear:So you have worked for many news organizations over the years. You mentioned this already. Can you talk just a little bit about how a little bit more about how you understood your role in the media throughout the course of your career?
Rome Hartman:Well, I think back to that that summer of of 1976, I was not yet a journalist. I would had an internship that allowed me to observe journalism and media for the first time. And I found it incredibly exciting. You know, I had no job except to to get coffee and make copies, on the assignment desk of a local television station. But I found the pace of it really appealing.
Rome Hartman:I found the deadlines really appealing, and the idea that we made something every single day. We made it a product every day, and then the and we made it as good as we could make it by the time, you know, 06:00 rolled around. That was when the local news started at the time. And then the next day, we came back and tried to make it another product and then do it a little better than the day before. So I found the rhythm and the pace and the deadlines most appealing at at the beginning.
Rome Hartman:And then I worked in a bunch of different jobs as you said, you know, three jobs in local television. Was hired by CBS in 1983. Came back to Washington, in 1986, and that's when I became the White House producer. So my role has been I've I've done a bunch of different jobs in a bunch of different places as you said. The larger role of the media lord.
Rome Hartman:Over the course of my career, the only thing that has been constant is constant change. I cannot I mean, that's true in every field, really, or every profession. I don't think of journalism as a profession, by the way. I think of it as a craft, a trade.
Marcus Goodyear:Oh, interesting.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah.
Rome Hartman:And because, you know, nobody gets their doctorate. And the people that do, it's a waste of time. I mean, in journalism. I'm not suggesting that
Marcus Goodyear:No. Yes. I was tracking.
Rome Hartman:There are many, many doctorates that are hugely useful.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yes.
Rome Hartman:In journalism, it's it's more a system of apprenticeship as in a trade.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah. I'm curious. You're mentioning marveling at change in the media over the course of the years of your career and and beyond. What's maybe the most surprising change you've witnessed for media?
Rome Hartman:Yeah. Surprising is is is the right word, I think, because I guess I've been surprised at the level of atomization. Technologically, of of course. You know, when I started at CBS News, the barriers to entry to to be part of the national conversation or to cover stories was absolutely high.
Marcus Goodyear:Wow.
Rome Hartman:Only a few people could do it. You know, there were basically three networks plus PBS, and nobody else had a chance to do this. It was just too hard. There were there were the the channels of distribution were were very few and far between and quite tightly controlled by the people that wanted to hold it that way. Today, anybody with a laptop and a microphone can have a voice.
Rome Hartman:Here we are. Right?
Marcus Goodyear:Right. Yes.
Rome Hartman:I'm not- but you know what I mean? It's the atomization in many ways is a wonderful thing.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Sure. Yeah. I think it probably goes without saying that there's an endless list of pros and and also cons there that we've got folks with a seat at the table that may have never had a seat at the table. We've got some voices that maybe are just noise.
Marcus Goodyear:Yeah. Yeah. And in some ways I think of it as an age of new yellow journalism where people are kinda chasing the the angriest voices, the most interesting voices, whether there's truth there or not. But in in talking about all of this change, I think about the way the presidency has changed or I think about our relationship to the presidency changing and the relationship between the presidency and the changes in technology. And I wonder how do you think about the president as a role in its relationship to all of these things?
Rome Hartman:Well, it depends on the president, I think.
Marcus Goodyear:Yeah. I I mean, the office.
Rome Hartman:Yeah. In some ways, the evolution of that office or the way that in which that office is used, mirrors the the changes in, in technology and in media, quite well. I mean, you have to go back to Roosevelt to think about of the first president who really took advantage of technology. You know, Roosevelt's fireside chats were revolutionary.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah.
Rome Hartman:And and in a way, gave him the opportunity to speak directly to the public with no filter in between. Now presidents always had that power, but it but he he figured out that radio could be a medium that allowed him to speak directly to the population. Every president since has done that to one degree or another. I remember Reagan I think it was Reagan that started the weekly Saturday radio address which harkened back a little bit to to what Roosevelt had done.
Rome Hartman:I don't think they do that anymore. And it and and I I'm not quite sure when it stopped, but those Saturday morning radio addresses, I don't know if they were little short things. They were, like, five minutes long. They're they were they were not much longer than Howard Butts' bits on the radio.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah.
Rome Hartman:But I thought they were interesting. And Reagan's in particular. You know? He paid attention to it, and he and he cared about it. I think partly because he had, you know, he had worked on the radio at the very beginning of his career.
Rome Hartman:I have a story to tell about the one time that I was there when he was recording. The way it used to work is that the president that you know, and Reagan was the president I was covering, would would record or maybe it was broadcast live, the radio the Saturday radio address on Saturday morning. And a network from the pool, the pool of of the three networks at the time, we had to provide the radio technician and then an editorial body to go physically to where the president was gonna was gonna give the radio address. That was the way it worked. That was the rules under which we all operated.
Rome Hartman:And so it was CBS's turn to do the Saturday radio address. And the radio technician was a guy named John Daley, and I was the editorial body. I had no real role except to stand there. We took this very perilous drive up to Rancho Del Cielo, which was Reagan's ranch up in the in the Simi Valley in California. Very remote.
Rome Hartman:He got there by helicopter, of course. We had to go up in a jeep, and it was a terrifying drive. So we get there. Reagan ambled out of the house and said, oh, good morning. Good morning.
Rome Hartman:Well, you had really had no idea who any of us were. But the only other person besides Secret Service that was there was assistant press secretary who worked for Reagan. So we all are up there. It happened to be a time that the president had done what was called a reflagging operation. Talk about how nothing has changed and everything has changed.
Rome Hartman:This was in the in the Straits Of Hormuz, Iran had laid mines. This was '86 or '87, I guess. And President Reagan had had reflagged all the tankers to make them American flag tankers to declare that an attack on any of those tankers would be an attack on The United States, and they were lining up convoys of them. And American navy ships, minesweepers and others, were leading the convoys up and down through the Straits Of Hormuz.
Marcus Goodyear:Wow.
Rome Hartman:Sound familiar?
Marcus Goodyear:Yeah.
Rome Hartman:But that's not what the radio address was about. It's just that the president came out and he said, oh, good morning. Good morning, everyone.
Rome Hartman:He said, I haven't had a chance to look at my, at my security briefing yet this morning. Did the convoy that was headed up through the straight make it okay? And I look at the assistant press secretary who has a look of absolute panic on his face because he didn't know. I had done my job, and I had read the wires that morning.
Rome Hartman:And I knew that the thing had made it safely up through the Strait Of Hormuz. And so I said, yes, Mr. President. The convoy came through. There were there were no complications. And he goes, oh, oh, that's wonderful.
Rome Hartman:And and then he sat down to do the radio address, and I thought, I've said ever since then for thirty seconds, I was the national security adviser. You know? If I if I had told him, no, sir. There was a terrible thing. God knows what he might have done.
Rome Hartman:But anyway, he came out. He delivered the radio address. He said goodbye to us, we came back down the mountain. I mean, it's a it's a good reminder that at the end of the day, we we put each other on pedestals. We we think of these positions as institutions, but they're filled with people. Yeah. Absolutely. And they're operated by people.
Marcus Goodyear:And it's just people asking questions of other people who are either reading what they need to read and preparing what they need to prepare or not. I would love right now to transition to some actual audio from President since we're talking about these radio addresses. We're gonna listen to three audio clips today, which is unusual for us. All three of these are from the H. E. Butt Foundation archives, and they are recordings from the period of 1974 to 1978. So the first two are '74, the last one is '78. And it's worth noting that these are politicians speaking, but they're not giving political speeches exactly. They're not on the campaign trail. These are political people who are speaking about their faith to other people of faith.
Marcus Goodyear:And the, the foundation event at that time was called the Layman's Leadership Institutes. They wrapped up in the mid seventies and then culminated in something called the Congress of the Laity in 1978. Each of the three presidents we're gonna hear, Carter, Reagan, and Ford, they are talking about their faith in pretty intimate ways, surprising ways. Carter and Reagan are both still governors at the time. So you if you listen to the whole talks, which we'll have available on our website, you can hear that ambition in their talks.
Marcus Goodyear:Even Carter who has a very quiet way of talking, there's this subtle ambition underneath it. And then we're gonna end with with Ford who is coming out of the presidency and sort of dealing with the reality of this new humble way of living again. So let's start with Jimmy Carter. He spoke at the Layman's Leadership Institute in Atlanta, Georgia in April 1974 in the midst of Watergate things coming out. And you're going to hear a governor who is by any measure successful, and yet he is standing in front of this room and naming his failure to the audience.
Marcus Goodyear:Here we have President Jimmy Carter, governor at the time.
President Jimmy Carter:I'm a businessman and and a Christian. I'm a father, and I'm a Christian. I'm a politician. I'm a Christian. I'm a governor of a state and Christian. And I'm a lot better father and businessman and farmer and politician and governor than I am a Christian. But but I have to tell you in complete honesty that although the most important thing in my life is Christ, that I haven't exhibited the same degree of commitment to serving Christ that I have to serving my own family or seeking votes or even serving the 5,000,000 people of Georgia. It's not something that I'm bragging about or just tossing out as a philosophical subject for discussion, but it concerns me very deeply.
Marcus Goodyear:Rome, I would love just, like, your your first thoughts on that.
Rome Hartman:Well, my first thought is not about Jimmy Carter. It's about Howard Butt. Because the fact that he created these safe spaces for people to talk about faith and work is you know, it's one of the central accomplishments of his life, I think, and and it's unique. And so all these years ago, Carter, who, as you say, was not yet president, but was in a position of of of, you know, authority and coming onto the national stage, I think, could feel safe enough to say that.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Right.
Rome Hartman:And is a tribute to Howard Butt. So that's a bit of an aside, but it that's really the first thing that came to mind listening. What's striking about Carter, and I think maybe, you know, central element of him as a leader, is humility. That is a you know, that's a minute's worth of humility from a person. Now Carter was not without ego. And some people came to see his humility as as a weakness as in the presidency. But there, he's just he's feeling free enough and confident enough to be humble is what it felt like to me. That was my first impression.
Marcus Goodyear:His approach to faith, it in in each of these instances, it's just very striking to hear them talking so explicitly about their their Christian faith.
Rome Hartman:Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear:But his approach in particular seems like it is an acceptance of accountability, an acceptance of the seriousness of of what he's been entrusted with. And like you said, it leads him to a place of humility. Did you experience that in the media as well?
Rome Hartman:Like, in in the to be fair. You know, when you're running for president and if you have the ambition that you have to have to run for president and not let alone succeed, to be able to to stay in touch with that humility, I think is a considerable feat.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah, it's huge. And I think it's central to this whole argument of faith and work and how the two come together because for many people, they say, this is the context in which my faith is at the forefront. But at work, I'm a tycoon. I'm a shark. I gotta make the deal.
Camille Hall-Ortega:And here we're hearing Carter say, I do the same. I'm guilty of that at times. And I'm acknowledging that it's problematic. Because if what I'm saying is true, that Jesus is the most important relationship in my life, then that looks different.
Rome Hartman:Yeah. And Carter, I think, pretty clearly was the first president to speak as openly and and as often about his faith. And it it made a lot of people uncomfortable Sure. At the time. It was I mean, every president was expected to to be a person of faith, But can you not talk about it quite so much? I think there was some of that feeling, and that that I think that ended up being seen as a weakness in Carter.
Rome Hartman:I don't think it should have been.
Marcus Goodyear:That's so interesting.
Rome Hartman:But I do think it was it was a political problem for him, the degree to which he wore his faith on his sleeve.
Camille Hall-Ortega:And do you think that's because of the humility aspect, that there's this sort of expectation, even if unspoken, that with the office or with the pursuit of the office of the presidency comes a necessity of bravado of or of confidence that sometimes seems to contradict that necessity for humility.
Rome Hartman:Yeah. I I think that on the surface that that's that is something that created a problem for him. I would argue that you get to a place of confidence from a place of humility. The only legitimate position of confidence is if you start from a a place of, I don't know, but I sure will try to find out.
Camille Hall-Ortega:That's good. That's really good.
Marcus Goodyear:Wow. Okay. So now we have Ronald Reagan. Same year, different gathering. Ronald Reagan is speaking in Colorado in September 1974. And in between these two talks, Nixon has resigned. So Reagan is also a governor. He's also ambitious.
Ronald Reagan:My own prayers have undergone some change. I have found that the most recent transition has become the most rewarding, also the most difficult. And that is that in the heat and the bitterness of partisanship to ask God's help to see through my anger, anger that sometimes could approach hatred, and see that my adversary is as a son of God and obviously as beloved of God as I hope I am and is my brother. But I believe there's a national hunger today for a spiritual revival. Indeed, I'm convinced that a return to spiritual order to moral control is indispensable to human survival in today's world. I do believe with all my heart that God intended America to be free and that we do have a destiny to serve him in the entire world.
Rome Hartman:Well, that's that's a speech in two parts, in sixty seconds. Right? First of all, Reagan was a much, much better performer than Jimmy Jimmy Carter ever was.
Marcus Goodyear:Yes. He was.
Rome Hartman:And you shouldn't, we should never downplay the importance of that.
Ronald Reagan:Right.
Rome Hartman:You know? He was a great communicator, and it served him very well. I think the humility that he expressed at the beginning, I think that he was a decent fellow, I believe. But the more important piece of it in terms of his presidency, I don't mean in terms of his spirituality, because I can't I don't dare to to to say that I understand that. But in terms of his presidency and what allowed him to be successful as a president is the second part of what you played, I think.
President Jimmy Carter:Mhmm.
Rome Hartman:Because he, one of the things about Reagan is he believed a few things really, really deeply and profoundly. And I do think he believed that, you know, the shining city on the hill image that he used, I think he believed that that was America's destiny and that that was kind of ordained by God. I believe he really thought that. And then, you know, he had sort of three core things that, he cared most about, which was limited government, free markets, and dare I say, hatred of communism. Those were the three hallmarks of his of his presidency.
Rome Hartman:And by those measures, whether you agree with him or not, he did those things.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah.
Rome Hartman:You know, what he he didn't he didn't use political terms or terms of goal, but I do think he thought that America's destiny was in his hands in some ways. Not such a not you know, the first half of that was really humble, and the second part was not. That's the thing that struck me most.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah. He sounded more like a politician in the end there. Right? But it's this message about, well, it's humility. We're seeing the humility there, but then also this turn to, we can do this America. This is how I believe we look. We should look. We can look. This is our goal onward.
Rome Hartman:Listen. He was a very, controversial president for all of his term. This is not a guy that was universally, admired by by the the entire American public. I mean, there's never been a president that's that's had that kind of mantle. But he did display. Some of this was performative, but I think it was also pretty deeply held, an optimism about America.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah.
Rome Hartman:That even people that didn't quite buy this, God ordained America to do these things and to be this place. Even people that didn't believe that were sometimes drawn in by his optimism. Because I do think optimism is a pretty central you talk about the founding fathers. Yeah. That is the spirit of if if they didn't have a spirit of optimism, they never would have done what they did. And Reagan Reagan channeled that for a lot of people, I think.
Marcus Goodyear:Yeah. We're we're gonna post the full speeches on our website. And if you listen to these, you'll hear a lot of tension inside Reagan's speech. I think more so than the other two, it's uncomfortable to listen to the whole thing because he's coming from such a different place, at least from where I am personally. Part of that is he starts with this, you mentioned the hatred toward communism.
Marcus Goodyear:And you may be right, Rome, but when I heard that, I I thought he was talking about American partisan politics and feeling hatred toward his his partisan opposite in America. But you may be right that he's talking about communism. I don't know.
Rome Hartman:Well, I don't know if he's talking about communism. I I do know that that was one of the central tenets of his presidency. And this is before he had even run for president.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Right.
Marcus Goodyear:Right.
Rome Hartman:I just so I I didn't mean to suggest that, he's talking about communism there. And, you know, there were things that Reagan did that were very divisive. He is remembered as a unifier, but he shouldn't be only remembered that way, I think. You know, this is the guy that demonized what he called welfare queens. That was the that was there were there were divisive elements in his in his politics for sure.
Marcus Goodyear:Yeah. Yeah. He even though he starts in a similar place to Carter by essentially a kind of confession, he quickly it's we we've condensed it a little bit in the clip you heard, but he quickly turns it to from this place of humility and confession, I still believe this thing, I'm still gonna fight for this thing, like you said. And in a sense, his faith quickly moves from his identity to so now I know how to diagnose the problem with the world. Now I know how to prioritize what we have to fix. And I'm curious how you see that in Reagan, how you see that in other presidents perhaps, how you see that in yourself.
Rome Hartman:Well, I think we humility is the key to being effective.
Rome Hartman:I think religion, it's not the same thing as faith necessarily, but religion got a bad name in the political arena by asserting certitude when what I mean, at least, you know, in in my theology, humility and mystery and understanding all that we don't know and can't claim is the is is the approach that that I try to take. But we see so often, and not just now, but certainly elements of it now is like, this is the way it is. And if you don't believe this, you don't belong. You don't have a seat at the table. So I I I think expressions of faith that demonstrate humility in the end are much more effective even if in the short term and tactically, people are you know, people are wielding faith as a weapon in the current political climate.
Rome Hartman:And that's people on, you know, both ends of the spectrum political spectrum, I mean, and I just don't see that as I don't see anything in Jesus that justifies that.
Camille Hall-Ortega:There's an old saying and song lyric and and probably more widely used that says, they will know we are Christian by our love.
Rome Hartman:Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega:And so when we talk about faith being used as a weapon, it's the opposite idea of that. And so when folks are confronted by something that doesn't look anything like love, it's really hard for them to associate those thoughts, those values, that ideology with good. That's, for me, that's pretty tragic.
Rome Hartman:I agree.
Marcus Goodyear:So this is interesting. I love this conversation. I love thinking about the relationship between our faith and our patriotism, between our faith and our presidency. What does it look like to be a leader who is a person of faith, and how much of that can we be explicit about? Which brings us to our our final clip from President Ford. This is 1978. It's the congress of the laity. We're now two years past the bicentennial. Ford has lost the nineteen seventy six election to Carter two years earlier, so he's no longer in power. And let's listen to president Ford.
President Ford:Betty and I have discovered personally that the things of this world, which we consider important, are fleeting. A man can hold high office and command great powers, be hailed as the leader of the world. But when his time in office is over, He must be prepared mentally, emotionally, spiritually, to relinquish that power, prestige, and acclaim and focus on what lasts forever. It is not an easy transition. Obedience to the call of discipleship requires that we, to whom much, much is given, concern ourselves with justice and practical service.
President Ford:On both the right and the left of our political spectrum there is now, as I perceive it, a growing sense that the major issues of our time human freedom, peace, economic progress, and the opportunity for personal fulfillment all involve personal morality.
Rome Hartman:Well, losing the presidency, whether you leave in defeat after having been, you know, lost an election or you leave because you're term limited, I think it has to be probably one of the hardest things, one of the hardest transitions that anybody has to make. Now Ford's presidency was atypical, of course. You know? He was never elected president. He came at at the at a moment of absolute crisis, and I think I think he did serve to I mean, his the pardon of Nixon was obviously very, very controversial.
Rome Hartman:But overall, Ford, calmed us all down and made us think, okay. Maybe gonna get through this. But when he was defeated in 1976, talk about a humbling experience. That it's about as humbling as it gets. And one day, the world almost literally revolves around you.
Rome Hartman:And the next day, you know, you gotta take out the trash. There's nobody nobody there to do it anymore for you.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah.
Rome Hartman:I think there's a lesson in that, and it'd be interesting. I bet you there have been books written, although I don't know of the of one about that transition and which presidents handled it well and which presidents handled it poorly. Going back to Carter, Carter is widely seen and I think will be remembered in a durable way as a much better ex president than he was president.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah.
Rome Hartman:Ford in some ways the same way, but the it is a humbling experience, I imagine, to go on January 20, whatever year it is you leave, from the center to the to kind of irrelevancy in the blink of an eye. It's amazing.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear:Yeah. It's I can't imagine. I can't imagine being the president, but I I really can't imagine having been the president in the way you're describing.
Rome Hartman:Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega:That's funny because I I don't know if it's fair to say that Ford never wanted what he got, but it I've I've read that that wasn't his aspiration. He wanted to be speaker of the house, and he was thinking, I'm gonna I'm gonna get to that point, be speaker of the house and serve until the end of my career. And then he walks into a big old mess, right, of cleanup duty, essentially.
Marcus Goodyear:Yeah.
Rome Hartman:Yeah. And, you know, he he started that clip by mentioning he said Betty and I or Betty and me. In many ways, Betty Ford was as consequential a figure as Gerald Ford in a couple of ways. She owned up to struggling with mental health at a time when that was essentially taboo as a subject. There's a there's a parallel to to Howard.
Marcus Goodyear:To Howard. Yes.
Camille Hall-Ortega:That's right.
Rome Hartman:And then when she faced alcoholism, she essentially was responsible for starting treatment and and and and and rehab. You know, the Betty Ford Center, I think, was the first of its kind.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Mhmm.
Rome Hartman:Certainly, people had had struggled and and tried to deal with addiction, in in ways in different ways. But she was a huge pioneer, on both of those fronts, both with mental health struggles and with addiction. So shout out to Betty Ford's role as much as as much as her husband's. And poor poor Ford, you know, he had the misfortune of of Chevy Chase on Saturday Night Live.
Marcus Goodyear:Oh, yeah.
Rome Hartman:You know, people remember the imitations of Gerald Ford almost as much as they remember the actual Gerald Ford. And that that's just kind of a it's a little bit of cruelty in that.
Marcus Goodyear:Okay. So now here we are fifty years later. It's 2026. We're looking at America February. For me, that means celebrating Whitman, celebrating Langston Hughes, celebrating everything I love about this country.
Marcus Goodyear:And I I do genuinely love this country. I think there's so much to love from our national park system to just I just I love living here. It's I'm so grateful that I get to live here. I think it would be fun. This is forgive me if this doesn't work. I would love to hear what you guys love about America.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Oh, I think that's great.
Rome Hartman:I think sometimes because we are born in America, we don't fully appreciate just what that fact of being born in America
Marcus Goodyear:Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah.
Rome Hartman:delivers to us. You know? You know, the poorest Americans are still among the wealthiest people in the world.
Rome Hartman:The people who struggle for health care in The United States, and that's a whole lot of them, still have better access to health care than most folks on the planet. I just think the fact that that we were blessed and and but complete accident of birth or or or or God's decision that we will be born in this time and in this place is a reason to love America. I obviously love the freedom of America, and particularly the freedom of speech because I've spent my entire career exercising that freedom of speech. I remember I said we were, Amy and I were abroad a couple of months ago. We happened to strike up a conversation.
Rome Hartman:We were in Belgium, and we struck up a conversation with a couple of people at tables around us. And one of the things that's striking is the rest of the world knows much more about us than we pay any attention to. And that is something that I I hope we can do our bit to repair a little bit, to have as much interest in and and concern for other places. It's easy to be self centered if you're an American. But one of you know, it's also a time if you're an American traveling abroad, you're gonna get some interesting questions from people about the state of this country.
Rome Hartman:Because, you know, a lot of people around the world kinda scratch their heads and wonder what the heck is happening here. And I said to the the people at the next table, I said, I'm really proud to be an American. I'm not always proud of America in every instance, and I and and there are many areas where where we fall short. But I don't think I've ever not been proud to be an American.
Rome Hartman:Yeah. And and I I think that really just goes back to the gift of of being born here and being a citizen here. And the things that you mentioned, Marcus, the incredible gifts of this of this land. And a lot of it is about the land, I think. You know, I I was born on the East Coast, but I have developed such a great appreciation for the West and the expanses and the open spaces.
Rome Hartman:And as you said, the the most beautiful of of those open spaces have been set aside for anyone to visit and and and experience and find joy in, that's a big part of the miracle of America, I think.
Marcus Goodyear:How about you, Camille?
Camille Hall-Ortega:Gosh. I echo so much of that, Rome. Beautiful. I am deeply grateful for freedom, for the freedom to worship. And I know that there are so many people all over the world who do not have that same freedom.
Camille Hall-Ortega:And so I want to never take for granted how spectacularly blessed we are for freedoms like the freedom to worship and our freedom of speech and my ability to vote and for the shoulders that we stand on that got us to the clarity of those freedoms. And yeah, well, I feel deeply grateful for this country and for all its good. And I think it's so important to note that critique of this country for me is never something that means I'm not grateful to be an American. I'm so glad and feel so blessed to be an American and to live the life that I live because I know that it's very different from so many people in our in the world.
Rome Hartman:And critique of America is kinda our job.
Camille Hall-Ortega:That's right.
Rome Hartman:Okay? It's one of the things that sets us apart and is a freedom in and of itself is the ability to say, yeah. This is not a perfect union. It's so far from a perfect union.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah.
Rome Hartman:And calling it out as you see it and being willing to listen to others call it out as they see it.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah.
Rome Hartman:That is a really important part of of what makes this country special. And anything that demonizes debate, I think, is the wrong thing.
Camille Hall-Ortega:That's right.
Rome Hartman:Respect and, you know, truth, by the way, some things are true
Marcus Goodyear:That's right.
Rome Hartman:and have to be respected. But I think our ability to find fault is really important.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yes. To hold accountable.
Rome Hartman:Yes. Exactly.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yes. Marcus, you mentioned parks, but I'm curious. Is there do you have more to say about what you love about this country?
Marcus Goodyear:Yeah. Hearing y'all's y'all's rich kinda ideological answers and philosophical answers, I felt a little humbled because I was like, yeah. I'd like to go to Zion National Park.
Camille Hall-Ortega:No. No.
Camille Hall-Ortega:That's a worthy response. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear:There's nothing I was thinking about.
Rome Hartman:That shouldn't be diminished at all.
Camille Hall-Ortega:No.
Marcus Goodyear:I'm very excited about our trip this summer. I've always wanted to go there, and I've not yet been. And it's it's definitely a bucket list trip for me.
Marcus Goodyear:But the thing I was thinking about unrelated to national parks, which I don't want to deemphasize, I truly, truly love our national park system. But I was thinking here in Kerrville, I live in a small town. It's 20,000 people. And when our kids were growing up, there were opportunities for them. We put our son in 4-H, our daughter did violin, and then our son wanted to do robotics and technology.
Marcus Goodyear:And I'm sure in other places you can just spin things up. But the ability in America to just spin up a little nonprofit, to just spin up a little side business, it feels to me like that's a big part of what makes this country great, that we're all empowered to take these little entrepreneurial risks. And it may lead to profit, it may lead to service, but those moments when we see a need and we're able to try to address that need ourselves through small institutions feels really important to me. And that's one of the things I'm most grateful for.
Camille Hall-Ortega:We have gotten to to talk about really neat things about your career, but I noticed a post you made when Barbara Bush passed away. You posted a beautiful photo of her, and you told a story about Barbara Bush and a dog and one of your kids, and I'm wondering if you'll share that. I'm just curious about some behind the scenes of where you maybe saw some humble moments of of the first families and the presidents.
Rome Hartman:We were in Kennebunkport, I believe, and it was a picnic. And Barbara Bush brought their little dog. It was like a a king Charles spaniel, I think, maybe.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Oh, sure.
Rome Hartman:Yes. And I've forgotten the name of the dog, but RJ just wanted to pet the dog, you know, as any kid would do.
Marcus Goodyear:I love it.
Rome Hartman:And so off he went, and and Barbara Bush was really kind and and gracious to him in that way. It was a tiny little moment, sure not memorable at all. That's one of the things that's interesting about the president and their and and first ladies is that they have thousands of these moments, most of which can't be memorable to them. They they they don't you know, you don't have room in your brain or your heart for those kinds of things. But each of those moments means so much to the people with whom they interact because, hey. That's the president.
Rome Hartman:You know, that's that's the first lady. It's a wonderful thing to think about how they handle those kinds of things. Reagan had a very nice touch himself in that way. We have a picture that we, will always treasure of RJ in in my wife Amy's arms, and it was at a press picnic that the that the Reagans did in Santa Barbara each year.
Rome Hartman:And Reagan's just reaching out and I think sort of tickling RJ's chin. And, you know, that's there are thousands of people that have pictures like that, but they mean a lot to each of them.
Marcus Goodyear:Yeah.
Rome Hartman:And I'm sure I'm sure they don't mean anything to Reagan, but it but there's something about the power of that office that's really striking. So I appreciate you remembering that and reminding me of it. I'm gonna have to go back and find that picture.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yes. Well, thank you for sharing. Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear:Yeah. I I have one more question. I think we could end there, but I I have one more question, and that is
Rome Hartman:And you may very well end there.
Marcus Goodyear:We may, that's right.
Rome Hartman:In the edit.
Marcus Goodyear:So much of what you dealt with is breaking news and covering the news of the day and reading the news in the morning so that you can report it out. And we're talking about the past. And I wonder, is that important, or why are conversations like this important?
Rome Hartman:Everybody has an opportunity to reflect on their life, on their career, on their faith, and how they've lived their faith and how they failed in their faith, over the over their lives. I think it's really important to step back. And don't wait until the end of your career. I I mean, I've I've retired a year ago, and it it's not as if the first time I've I thought back on or reflected on or tried to learn from things that had happened over the course of my career happened when I retired. That would be a terror that'd be a mess if you did that.
Rome Hartman:I think it it's important for us to reflect on the meaning of events looking back, whether it's in the immediate term. You know, you've probably had days like this where you wake up in the morning and you think, ugh, that what happened yesterday was terrible, or what happened yesterday was wonderful. What did I learn? I think we should all be doing that, at every step along. Now the benefit of time, Marcus, and benefit of looking back to these wonderful clips from from fifty years ago, is that time changes your perspective and hopefully broadens your perspective or makes you more mature.
Rome Hartman:I'm I mean, I certainly hope that I have more maturity now than I did when I was, you know, chasing Ronald Reagan around, all those years ago. And I think to to stepping back at each point with humility, again, here we get back to humility and saying, what did I learn or what could I have learned? What should I have learned? What should I have done differently? Not in a kinda coulda, woulda, shoulda way, but just in a in a way that hopefully will inform our path going forward. That's the value of reflection, I think, or echoes of the past.
Marcus Goodyear:Way to bring it home.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yes. Rome, thank you so much for your time.
Rome Hartman:Thank you. I'm grateful to for the invitation and gratified by the the conversation.
Camille Hall-Ortega:No. A treat for us. We're grateful. Thank you.
Rome Hartman:Me too.
Marcus Goodyear:The Echoes Podcast is written and produced by Camille Hall-Ortega, Rob Stennett, and me, Marcus Goodyear. It's edited by Rob Stennett and Kim Stone. Our executive producers are Patton Dodd and David Rogers. Our original music is by Johnny Rogers. Special thanks to our guest today, Rome Hartman.
Marcus Goodyear:Rome, do you subscribe to Echoes Magazine?
Rome Hartman:I do, and gratefully.
Marcus Goodyear:Thank you. That is such an honor. And you can subscribe too by visiting us at echosmagazine.org. You'll receive a beautiful print magazine each quarter, and it's free. You can find a link in our show notes.
Rome Hartman:It's free!
Camille Hall-Ortega:It's free.
Marcus Goodyear:If you've enjoyed this episode, follow us wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to leave a review because it matters. The Echoes Podcast and Echoes Magazine are both to you by the H.E.Butt Foundation. You can learn more about our vision and mission at hebfdn.org.